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🎙️ Interesting Humans Podcast
Ep. 70.5: [BONUS] How a 25-Year-Old Led the Army’s First Cyber Unit—and Never Looked Back | Chris Schueler
00:56:53
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- [00:01]
A
This is Interesting Humans Podcast. My name is Jeff Hopeck, your host. Where we go past the highlight reel and into the moments that actually shape a life. The struggles, the mistakes, the pivots. Because the real lessons aren't found in success. They're found in everything it took to get there. Hey everyone, Jeff Hopeck here, host of Interesting Humans Podcast. Before we jump into today's episode, I want to give you a little context. This conversation originally aired on another podcast I owned called 20 Minute MBA where I sat down with business leaders and entrepreneurs and asked them the same four questions to uncover the lessons behind their success. As I've continued to build Interesting Humans Podcast, I've decided to bring some of those powerful conversations over here because at the end of the day, great stories and great people belong in one place. Today's guest is Chris Schuller, CEO of Sideris Cybersecurity, who you may also recognize from episode 23 of Interesting Humans Podcast. In this conversation you'll hear his journey, the mindset that shaped his leadership, and some hard earned lessons around trusting your gut and taking risks. Let's go ahead and get started. All right, folks, welcome back to another episode here of the Interesting Humans. And today I've got with me Chris Scholler. Chris is just, he's gonna tee up and deliver an incredible message today. There's so much hope in this story and I want to, I do want to start off, Chris by saying thanks. First off, I really appreciate this. The audience is going to just get so much value out of this show and I want to start off by saying how I know Chris. So Chris and I met about, in, in around 2010. My wife, who's a 4th degree black belt, had the great privilege of instructing to tour all of my daughters. All of your daughters in, in Taito karate. And then from there, sort of the rest was history. We became friends. We, we. I had brought a bunch of people to your office that some you hired, some used as contractors and we just built, built a really good relationship. So again, I do want to say thanks, Chris. And I think with the audience know can is really going to get out of today. They're going to get incredible stories, they're going to get awesome, awesome hope and encouragement. But I sort of, I want to say these three things they're going to really extrapolate. Discipline, attitude and humility. Okay. In that order. And I like to say it like this. If, if you're driving, if you're floating down the river in a, in a kayak and you're you're going back and forth and you got discipline on one side and you've got attitude on the other side, but you want to get the kayak to level out. Some people go like, just turn this one up or just turn this one up. But here's what's interesting about you. Out of all these accomplishments and you are decorated, you take that brick to lay in the back of the boat, the back of the kayak, to level it out. That brick for you is humility. And that's, that's why you're here. Okay? Yeah, that's why you're here. So your, your accomplishments, you started off with a decorated career in the army, and then you worked in as a civilian in the Pentagon, which we're going to get into some of those stories. And you were doing cyber before cyber was cyber. Like, we, we weren't even talking about that. Right, right. And then, you know, your father, and such a proud father, you wear that hat, I mean, every day, which is just so cool. Makes me emotional. But you are so into that role. But what's just off the charts is a text that you got not long ago that said, from Robert Herjavec on Shark Tank. Chris, you're my guy. Tell me about that.
- [04:03]
B
Yeah, kind of surreal. You know, someone told me when I was young in my career and other people have used it as well. Right. But I like to think a lot sometimes you don't necessarily wish for luck or get lucky. I think it's like you got to put yourself in a position to attract luck. But my whole career has been in cyber 20 plus years outside my military days. But I'm a CEO today, currently of a large cybersecurity, but focused on identity. And I got a message out of the blue like, hey, we're interested in you in something else, but you know, we can't tell you what it is. And there was an NDA and this, you know, and rightfully because they didn't want it to actually get out there until they figured out like, what is the plan. And this current CEO, founder, absolute legend, titan was on board with, this is the guy who I'm going to hand over this Ferrari to, you know. Oh my gosh. So, yeah, so it's kind of surreal. Like it really hasn't hit me, which is, I guess like that 10 pound weight.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Because in some ways, like, I'm scared to death. Yeah, right. In other ways, like, I couldn't be more excited because I feel like, you know, as an athlete, like I've trained For this day. Yeah. Like, I put the work in. The muscle memory is there. My body's in perfect condition, My mind's in perfect condition. Like, so is this balance kind of in that same kayak experience? I'm like, let's go. And what am I doing at the same time? But yeah, in just a couple days, I take over as CEO of Sideras, which is a cyber security, but it's a cyber detection and response. And it's all they do. That's all they do for the largest brands in the world. So, yeah, so it's a really super exciting, but at the same time, crazy nerve wracking for what's to come.
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A
Gosh, that's incredible. All right, so I like to say this on the show, you were not born.
- [06:12]
B
Yeah.
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A
The CEO of Sidearis.
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B
Right.
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A
So all these things happen to you in life. Like, so let's get to know who you are. Let's go all the way back. Tell me about, like, your siblings and what did life look like growing up.
- [06:25]
B
Yeah. That's a man. It's crazy. I think this is where probably the humility comes from. Right? Yeah. Because like, where, where I grew up, you know, probably an hour plus outside of Chicago, small town. No one leaves a small town. Nobody. Right. Like, if you left a small town, you're a big deal. Yeah. And, you know, I was the youngest of three boys. Not. Not the. The crazy athlete of all of them, or at least not portrayed to be not the smartest of all of them. And, you know, obviously gapped by five and six years from them. Sure. Literally was the baby of three big boys. Right. Like, my brothers are significantly larger than me.
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A
Oh.
- [07:09]
B
Inside in size 6, 4, you know, 250. I mean, massive humans. Right. But, but, but I look back at those days and like, the tenacity and the grit that it built in me is what I lean on today, you know, and. And in some ways, really what it built in me is this performance based mentality. Because the best way. And I love my father to death. I mean, he's texting me a picture this morning at 77 in the gym. Right. Like, pops getting after it. But like, for me, it was, it was always, you know, how do I make my dad proud? Right. How do I get those moments where my dad's like, you know, I'm proud of you. Yeah. And I was always living in the shadow of two monsters of brothers, right. That were always getting the trophies and the accolades and the attention and everybody knew them in town. So there was always this, like, Living in the shadow of. Of two giants. Right. And I knew I was very different than both of them just to, like, where my attention was at and how I put my focus in, but it really kind of just created this, you know, this, this grit inside of me. Sure. And this performance driven mentality that I look back know so many years later and I can see these moments now where I'm like, oh, that defined who I am today and that taught me, like, when things go bad, learn from them, get better from them.
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A
Yeah.
- [08:35]
B
And then re rack, reboot, and then re engage. That's incredible. And now I'm like, in this, this cycle now where, you know, like, I look back and I'm like, yeah. And then what's the crazy part is. And we'll get into it. But, you know, I was the first one to ever leave our town from our family, ever from our whole. Like, my, my father had been there for, you know, decades, and I left and it was almost like I was in some ways, like, forgotten. In some ways. My one brother lived less than a mile away from my parents.
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A
Yeah.
- [09:05]
B
The other brother lived a couple miles away. Yeah. My parents were integrated within their ecosystems, watching their kids and all that. And I'm here, like in Georgia. Right. Like, you know, hours away, almost forgotten in some way. And that, you know, you know, that, that to me is, you know, I look back and now all my brothers and my parents don't live in Illinois anymore.
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A
Incredible.
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B
They've all moved away.
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A
They've all moved away.
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B
Yeah.
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A
What did your parents do?
- [09:30]
B
So my dad was, you know, kind of definitely blue collar, Worked multiple jobs, worked at a plastics company on the floor. Eventually kind of worked his way up into kind of, you know, managing products and balancing kind of materials.
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A
Sure.
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B
But also ran a construction company. He was the head umpire for the city baseball league. My dad worked so many different jobs, and then he retired really young. I retired at 55, actually, and since then has worked a ton of other jobs. He still works to this day. Sure. My mom worked at Kmart, was a stalker retailer at Kmart, and. And she hung it up at, I think around 50 as well.
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A
Yeah.
- [10:17]
B
Yeah. And the crazy part is, like, three brothers, huge people. My dad's not. Not a small guy. Yeah. And we grew up in a 900 square foot house with one bathroom. Oh. You know, so like. And guess what, Guess who got the cold shower. Jeff.
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A
Oh, you're showering last. That lays a good foundation then for, you know, the springboard, like, for sure. Which is. Which is incredible. What did Sports look like.
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B
Yeah. I mean, I was that. That's where I found, like, my identity in many ways.
- [10:49]
A
Okay.
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B
Like, I wasn't great, and I think I had some learning disabilities when I was a kid, but it was undiagnosed.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But I definitely was not great academically. Yeah. And I found success in sports. So I was, you know, every sport I wanted to pour myself into, you know, you know, four year varsity and wrestling and played football and did track. I was a pole vaulter. Like.
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A
Right.
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B
Everything to me revolved around sports.
- [11:15]
A
Yeah.
- [11:16]
B
Like, everything. And that was again, kind of back to that performance mentality of, like, me trying to get trophies to show my father of my worth. Right. Like, look, dad, like, I'm the captain of the varsity team. Right. Like, look, Dad, I won this tournament.
- [11:31]
A
Yeah.
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B
And my dad was so proud of me. Like, some of the best moments was, like, when I would win and, like, come back to my dad and get that hug, you know, And I had this. The most amazing supportive mother that anyone could possibly have. I mean, I'm literally was. Was a mama's boy. Right. Who used to help me, like, even help me do my homework. Yeah. Right. Because I couldn't do my own homework. I wasn't, you know, like, equipped enough for it.
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A
Right.
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B
Um, but yeah, sports were. I mean, it was everything for me when I was a kid. Yeah.
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A
Then college. How'd you make that decision?
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B
Yeah, I mean, it was, you know, I was supposed to go because my brothers went to the military right out of high school, and my dad was in the military. So the military ecosystem, what branches were they? All army.
- [12:12]
A
All army?
- [12:12]
B
Yeah, all army. And my mom was like, adamantly against me going to the military because she'd already dealt with two boys and both had served in wars, and she was like, I can't do this again. You're the baby. I want you to go to college. And that was the route. The route was go to college. Even though I didn't feel like I was equipped to go to college because I didn't feel academically I was going to survive, but I felt like I probably could do pretty well if I went to a college and wrestled. So we were going on that path. And then there was this, like, you know, monkey on your shoulder, if you will, whispering in your ear. Right. And you know, as a Christian, I don't know, like, what that voice was. Right. I do believe it was, in some ways God kind of calling me to cancel a potential demon. And that was looking back and saying if I hadn't Went in the military, would I have ever been treated the same as my brothers and my dad who had served? Right. So because of that, I listened to it and I was like, you know, I gotta do it. I just have to, like, it's four year commitment. I don't know what's to hold, but like, I'll get back to college. I told my mother, I was like, mom, I just, I can't not be the only brother who doesn't serve. Like, I gotta do it. And it was probably the best decision. I mean, truly.
- [13:30]
A
Yeah.
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B
In hindsight, I wish I probably would've went to college first and then went in, you know, as an officer.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Because I quickly realized, like, I actually was pretty smart because I started to apply myself in the right ways. I started to realize, like, hey, I'm as smart as these officers. And that's kind of what drove me, you know, further my career. But. But yeah, that's kind of what, what jumped me into that. And then I'll just tell you, like, you know, you fast forward to getting out of the military and again, now that I've like switched on, I know, hey, like, you're actually pretty sharp. You can get stuff done. People rely on you. Not just for your athleticism. I went to college and got my degree done in three years. Right. Like 16, 18 hour classes. Worked full time. Yeah. Got married young.
- [14:17]
A
Yeah.
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B
My wife was on bed rest my senior year of college for six months with our baby. You know, I still got, I still got A's.
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A
Right.
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B
Right. Still. Still survived. Like. Yeah. I look back and I was like, maybe I wasn't that as dumb or, you know, it's like, yeah. Slow as I thought I was.
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A
Right.
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B
It was just an application thing somewhere
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A
that that message was planted in your brain somewhere that you're, you're, you're not enough. But totally. What's your alma material?
- [14:44]
B
Well, NIU was where I went to my undergrad.
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A
Okay.
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B
And that's a college about 45 minutes north of Chicago.
- [14:52]
A
Okay.
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B
And my wife went the same school with me.
- [14:55]
A
Yeah.
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B
And then I went. I wanted to continue my education. I felt like, hey, this is working for me.
- [15:01]
A
Sure.
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B
And I went right into my MBA just after that at Auburn.
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A
NBA. How did you meet your wife again? At school or after?
- [15:10]
B
No, like, man, God's incredible with his stories that he knits together together. But my wife was actually going to school at Penn State and happened to be in Savannah where I was stationed in the military to see her mother in a sabbatical, like in between Semesters.
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A
Okay.
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B
And I happened to bump into her, like, through mutual friends. And of course, like, you know, she was raised in. She's Pennsylvania Dutch and Colombian. Right. So, yeah, you know, big cheekbones, definitely stands out in the crowd. But, yeah, we got married at 21. Literally at the end of my military, active duty, military career. We got married. We were just so emphatically in love with each other that I was like, I just can't live without you. Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah. And then, well, the surreal story. And again, like, how God knits these stories together. But the surreal story is we elope. Like, I was so in love with her that I was like, you know, babe, like, let's just get married and the military will pay for housing for me. We just won't tell anybody. And then eventually we'll, like, get engaged and we'll officially get married. Right. And we thought, like, that was the plan. Well, then God decided, like, okay, I have a different plan for you. So first of all, my mother was managing my bank account because I was being deployed a lot and I couldn't take care of my bills. So my mom ran my bank account and paid all my bills for me. And my mom noticed, hey, there's an 800 increase in your paycheck. Like, you're not on active duty. Airborne jump pay. Like, what's going on here? And so, you know, we had to drive up on the weekend and surprise my parents. And then my wife's father, Jeff. And it gets worse. It gets worse. My wife's father was a missionary in Honduras. Right. And we eloped and didn't tell him. And then not even a month later, after eloping, I get called in my commander's office and he tells me, hey, Chris, I don't know how this has happened. We've never sent anybody there. But you're going to Honduras on active duty.
- [17:16]
A
No way.
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B
For assignment. To help run these DEA missions and support him as one of only 20 army guys. Right. And oh, by the way. No way. Oh, by the way, Jeff, it gets one level worse. It's 45 minutes away from your father in law.
- [17:31]
A
Oh, right.
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B
So, like, I mean, that's when you feel like, okay, now there's, there's, there's definitely.
- [17:38]
A
Yeah, this isn't me.
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B
This is not me. Like, this is surreal.
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A
That's incredible.
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B
Yeah.
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A
All right, one great story from the military days.
- [17:47]
B
Oh, man, so many amazing stories. I mean, like, again, like, I don't. I don't regret those days at all. And I encourage any, you know, young Young men, women.
- [17:58]
A
Yeah.
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B
They're trying to find who they are. Like, you know, look at me. Like, I found who I was. I knew I wanted to do.
- [18:03]
A
Yeah.
- [18:04]
B
I knew I was capable of. But probably the one that. That is the most humbling for me is, you know, I was one of those guys that, like, I loved physical fitness. I would max my PT tests. I was like, you know, did all the military schools. I thought. I thought in many ways I was, you know, like, indestructible. Yeah, right. I really did. And we went on this mission. We came home, and back in Honduras, and we were back kind of in what we called hooches. And we were in a hooch. And the military allows you, when you're not deployed to have beverages, beers and all that kind of stuff. And we were celebrating, right? Great time, and all these service members. And we had Navy guys, Navy seals there, and Special Forces guys, and everybody's. You know, when you have a few beverages and you get a little bit inebriated, which, you know, those weren't my finer days in that regards. But you start talking big stories as guys, right? And we're talking a whole lot of smack. And of course, like, I was with my buddies, we're talking a lot of smack, right? About some of these Navy SEALs and SF guys. To say, like, you don't even know what it's like, right? Like, you're pre Madonnas, pretty boys. And it's like 3:00am, Jeff. Right? And we've been drinking since, like, I don't know, eight, maybe seven post barbecue. So, like, we weren't in any shape. Right? Right. And literally, one of the Special Forces guys goes, okay, guys, you think you're that tough? You know that mountain outside of. Of our. Our base? Yeah, let's go climb that Martin tomorrow morning. That mountain tomorrow morning. And we were like, done, easy, done. We're gonna run up that mountain, right? Like, because again, you know, you're talking smack, like, you think, like, you know, ah, we're just, you know, we're just BSing, right? Right. So we get home at like 4:00am, Jeff, 5:30am, I hear this banging on my door, right. I've been sleeping an hour. I think I'm hearing things, right? Yep. Wake up, Shuler. Wake up. So I open the door here is all of them fully dressed with gear, ready to go hike the mountain.
- [20:14]
A
I just got that feeling of one hour of sleep.
- [20:17]
B
I thought it was. I thought I was dreaming.
- [20:19]
A
Right?
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B
Right. Like, oh, my God, I'm drunk. Yeah, I'm still sleepy. Oh, and here they are, ready to run, ready to go, right? And like, you know, you know you can't not go, right? Like, you're like, okay, right? Like, I'm not getting back in bed. I'll never live that down. Never. So I was like, all right, give me, give me 20 minutes. So like, you got 10. Okay. Right. So, yeah. And oh, by the way, all my other buddies were doing the same thing I was doing. They were all sleeping. Oh. So this, this is like the biggest humble pill, right? So we, we get out there, we start hiking up the mountain. Of course, like, they're just talking non stop, right? Because one get. One buddy throws up, another buddy throws up. Like we're dry heaving, sweating. We didn't bring enough water.
- [21:07]
A
What was the weather?
- [21:08]
B
It was. I mean, it's hot, humid. Like, the humidity down there is insane. And we finally make it, right? And of course, like, we thought for sure there's no way, right? Yeah. And of course, like, you know, the whole time you're just like regretting every decision. You're like, never again am I going to talk these stories. And then the craziest part, Jeff. So all that was insane. Then we get to the top of the mountain and there is a Blackhawk helicopter on top of the mountain, right? And we're thinking, what's going on? Right? And then we start walking toward the Blackhawk and like the whole crew is already out of the Blackhawk, like in chairs. They had loaded up a cooler of beer and food, and we're already setting up a barbecue on top of the mountain just for this team coming in. Oh, my goodness, Jeff. In an hour, in an hour from going to bed to waking us up, they had already orchestrated this whole thing, right? Because they were like, it's game time. So then I realized there's levels to this thing, right? Right. And like, be careful on the levels that you're playing with because there's levels to this game. But that's the one I always remember. Like, whenever I get. I hear guys talking like smack and stories, right? It brings me Back to like 1997 in Honduras, where I got the biggest humble sandwich of my life, right? And now, like, I always undersell and over deliver, right? Since that day.
- [22:38]
A
Undersell over delivering a barbecue at what,
- [22:41]
B
7:00am it was like, it was probably 8, 8, 8:00am 8:00am I the first beer of the day?
- [22:46]
A
8:00am Correct.
- [22:47]
B
Correct. That's incredible. I was still sick. I didn't have a beer, water hydration. It was like, I just need to survive, man.
- [22:57]
A
I'M so glad I asked that question. I almost glossed right over like not asking you about this so bad military. Oh my goodness. All right, so you get out.
- [23:04]
B
Yeah.
- [23:05]
A
You did four years.
- [23:06]
B
Yeah, four years active. I stayed another four years in the. In the reserves.
- [23:11]
A
Okay.
- [23:12]
B
But got stop loss from 9 11. I had to stay in four more years. So 12 years total service. So what I did like again, kind of some of the things I did in the military, particularly around like information operations. Yeah, that. That was like one of the key mosses they wanted to make sure they keep on to. Yeah. But yeah, had did a 12 years total. Total service.
- [23:32]
A
12.
- [23:33]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [23:34]
A
Okay. What so that last for like during 9, 11. I mean, were you.
- [23:40]
B
Yeah, that was. I mean, that was. Yeah, I mean it was so, you know, when I got out and went. Went to. Went to college is really when I started to lean into like it in general. And I started identifying like, really in 98, 99 that within it there was this like information assurance problem. Right. So think of like risk. Like, how does risk occur in an IT world? Right. Well, it's usually around data and access, and there was nobody looking at that stuff at all. And the military was just starting to invest in that, like for its war fighters and such. So I really started to lean into that. And we actually created. In 98, 99, we created the first information operation commands in the Army. And it was actually, I give the generals and civilian leaders all the credit in the world. Most people don't even know this, but they for the first time actually leaned into the civilian side of the military and said, you know what? Most of our reservists and National Guard people in the private sector are doing these things. We can't ramp up and scale fast enough. Active duty wise. Yeah. Right. And like, you can't sign contracts and bring people in quick enough, especially in the war fighter world. So let's actually lean into our reservists and National Guards that are doing these jobs and let's create commands for these people.
- [25:07]
A
Yeah.
- [25:08]
B
So that instead of like active duty two weeks at two weeks a year, when you're in the reserve, you serve.
- [25:13]
A
Yeah.
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B
Instead of doing that.
- [25:14]
A
Yeah.
- [25:15]
B
Let's deploy them on weekends throughout the year to active duty installations and overseas to actually help protect and create these protections around both our CONUS networks and oconus, particularly war fighter networks. Yeah. And so that's what I did literally for all those years in the reserves. I was like working active duty, doing college full time, and then I would literally fly out On a Friday, spend Saturday Sunday at Fort Bragg or Fort Carson and just like pen test scan, help the IT team remediate, fly back home Sunday night or Monday morning and go right back to work again. That was like 98, 99, 2000. Right. So it got me really into this industry. That's the craze today. Yeah. But all because like, you know, there was a need. I found the need and I started investing myself in it. And then obviously opportunity came with the, the military investing in us.
- [26:12]
A
And then. Okay, awesome. The last. So that last four years ended. What was the year? And then did you go to the Pentagon right after that?
- [26:20]
B
Yeah. So that was, you know, another. It was an O2 actually. So like in conjunction with, in this IOC command, an opportunity came up, particularly in the army. Focusing on the army and the reserves was they wanted an information assurance leader. So like one person to run the whole program.
- [26:41]
A
Okay.
- [26:42]
B
And, and we started. I started focusing exclusively on the reserves. Right. So if we can get this right, this can be applicable to everything else. So yeah, started in 02, really being an information assurance program leader. I had a team of like five people. And then fast forward like almost four years later, well, three years later, actually had the very first security operations center ever built in the Army. Right. Which blueprinted, that was replicated throughout all the army had a team of, I don't know, like 300 people working for me in just a couple years and deploying like the first, you know, kind of analytics, if you will, around data to find threats and vulnerabilities and identify truly like hackers coming in to the warfighter networks and the oconus, the domestic networks. Yeah, incredible. I mean, like, you know, it's one of those again, like being in the right place, the right time, but having the right knowledge. Right. Like, I mean, Jeff, I was 25. Right. 24, 25 years old. Like no one should be listening to me. Right. Especially not like an SES2, which is equivalent to like a two or three star general in the civilian world. Right. They shouldn't be listening to some 20 year old kid. And I was a kid. Yeah, right. But, but they, you know, there's a lot of trust because like things that I said happened. Yeah, right. There was definitely like technical competence. Yeah. Because that was like this evolution of constantly learning and leaning in and, and then just, you know, being a guy who gets stuff done. Right. Like, I think they saw that in me and they kind of brought me up and gave me these elevated roles. Yeah. So I was the director of you know, the very first security operations center for the army at, like, 25 years old.
- [28:30]
A
And that was at the. That was.
- [28:31]
B
Yeah.
- [28:32]
A
The Pentagon.
- [28:33]
B
Yeah. What's it.
- [28:34]
A
What's it like being in there?
- [28:35]
B
I mean, it was. It was crazy. I mean, a lot. A lot of it's interesting, too, because, like, a lot of the decisions happens in the Pentagon, but all the work happens in Crystal City. Right. So it's like this. This separation of the two. And then in. In 03 and 04, we decided that, you know, this is a lot of. It's because of, like, 9, 11 and such, but we decided, you know what, we need to create these dark data centers throughout the US So that there's not, like an epicenter of, like, what happened with the World Trade center when, like, 40% of the Internet went down. Right. So it was in the basement of World Trade center, was where MCI was. So we built. Actually, that's what got me to Georgia. We built the data center, a dark data center in Peachtree City. So I went from, like, Pentagon, Crystal City. Yeah. So all of a sudden, living in Peachtree City, building a dark data center and literally creating a security operations center removed from the Pentagon remotely.
- [29:30]
A
Yeah.
- [29:30]
B
In. In literally in Peachtree City, Georgia, that nobody knew. Like, no signs on a building, right?
- [29:36]
A
Nothing.
- [29:37]
B
Nothing. You wouldn't even know what was in there. Oh, yeah. Like, you wouldn't even know what was in this building. But, yeah, it was.
- [29:45]
A
And you lived there?
- [29:45]
B
Yeah. Lived in Peachtree City.
- [29:47]
A
In Peachtree City.
- [29:47]
B
Yeah. And you should just bounce. I mean, I would. It was great living there because you're only 15 minutes to the airport, but, yeah, you bounce back and forth to D.C. and back to here. And then the Army's intelligence is located in Fort Huachuca, Arizona. It used to bounce to Arizona as well.
- [30:01]
A
Oh, my.
- [30:01]
B
Yeah.
- [30:02]
A
Is that still here in Peachtree City?
- [30:04]
B
No, not anymore. They moved it. Yeah, they moved it now with. With cloud and everything else. You don't need, like, to hug your server all the time.
- [30:10]
A
It's probably somewhere so cool right now. I won't even ask you where because I'm sure we can't talk about it, but.
- [30:16]
B
Yeah.
- [30:16]
A
Okay, so what happens after that, then?
- [30:20]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So, like, now I'm kind of, like, in some ways, weaponized. Yeah. Right. Running cyber programs. And I get this phone call from a recruiter which had never gotten recruited. Yeah. Really?
- [30:33]
A
Like, what year are we in here?
- [30:34]
B
Just for. This is in 05.
- [30:36]
A
Okay. So 05. So cyber's not really on. On the.
- [30:39]
B
Not not out in the world. Not. Not. Nope. Not in the mainstream.
- [30:42]
A
Okay.
- [30:43]
B
Like, fintech companies are investing in it.
- [30:45]
A
Yeah.
- [30:45]
B
Military's heavily invested in it.
- [30:47]
A
Okay.
- [30:47]
B
And that's pretty much that I don't.
- [30:49]
A
Joe Public doesn't know.
- [30:51]
B
No, no, no. Perspective.
- [30:52]
A
Got it.
- [30:52]
B
Like, you may know about like, phone freaking back in the days, right? But not. This is like right at the entrance of like, when the blaster worm and slammer worm and all that shutdown email, okay. So I get this phone call from a recruiter and they're like, hey, we know what you do. We know all about your army career. We're looking for someone like that and we want someone to come in and build that for us. There's this company called Internet Security Systems based here in Sandy Springs. And I never, like, never interacted with the private sector ever. Right. So intriguing. But I've been in the military career, our military life, my entire career. Right. So I was like, at least go for an interview, you know, and in the middle of the interview, they were like, you got to talk to this one guy who like, runs the whole managed services. He's going to love you. And you got to talk to him. So this phone, this, this conversation with this guy, Rick Miller, and he's like, you're my guy. Literally what he tells me, like, you're my guy. I need what you got. Like, this is the sort of thing we need to build out. And started working for ISS as a director of security operations for iss, which was like one of the, one of the products that we actually used in the military to scan networks. They were known for their vulnerability scanning tool. And they were just building out really how to manage security operations for customers. So outsourcing the security operations. So started doing that in 05. And then literally a year later, IBM swoops in, Right. And wants to partner with us. Naive. So I'm presenting about all these things that we're doing with security operations with our products. And then like all of a sudden they bring me in a room and they're like, oh, yeah, by the way, like, they're not partnering with us, they're actually going to be acquiring us. So then, you know, I become an IBMer, like within the next, I don't know, two or three months.
- [32:47]
A
And that's how you got into IBM was you got acquired?
- [32:50]
B
Yep, that's right.
- [32:51]
A
So now you're an employee of IBM.
- [32:52]
B
Yeah.
- [32:53]
A
And you're doing what?
- [32:54]
B
And yeah, that was another, like, kind of military story where IBM also realized that, like, we can't Innovate fast enough, we need to actually do some reverse integration. So instead of, like, acquiring and assimilating, let's actually take all of our cyber information assurance assets and give them to this new acquisition that we made. Right. So they bought, you know, ISS for a couple billion bucks. Super high horsepower company. Great leadership. Right. Chris Clouse, Tom Noonan.
- [33:24]
A
Right.
- [33:24]
B
Legends in Atlanta that we all know. And they lean into us hard. They gave. So I literally, overnight, I maybe had 300 people. I had 700 people, like, everybody. Anybody that had anything to do with anything remotely looking like security operations centers all of a sudden worked for me.
- [33:41]
A
And you're 30 probably at the time. Ish.
- [33:43]
B
Young.
- [33:44]
A
Yeah.
- [33:44]
B
28, 29. Right. That's awesome. Yeah. Like, you know, like, at the time, IBM was definitely, like, older, right? Sure. A lot of people, mid-50s, late-50s. So you're coming in. Lily is this, like, you know, late 20s.
- [34:01]
A
Wow.
- [34:01]
B
Guy who, like, everybody wants a part of because, like, security operations now is starting to become mainstream. Yeah. And starting to become a thing that clients want. And all the, you know, massive IBM clients, they all wanted to have that integrated in their portfolio, services. So, yeah, I went from, you know, flying back and forth to. To D.C. or to Arizona and occasionally on the weekends and my reserve days. Yeah. To all of a sudden flying every week around the globe. Wow. I think I flew, like, my first year. I flew maybe a million and a half miles in the first year of acquisition with IBM, and then it just sustained, like, for the next 15 years, I probably flew an average of a million and a half miles. Yeah. A year.
- [34:45]
A
Unbelievable.
- [34:47]
B
Insane. I mean, like, there's so many. So many countries I even forgot I've been to.
- [34:51]
A
Yeah.
- [34:52]
B
That my kids are like, oh, you know, like. Yeah, whatever in Manila or Thailand. And I'm like, oh, I was there one time, maybe even twice. Yes.
- [35:01]
A
There's a word you've used many times, Information assurance.
- [35:04]
B
Yeah.
- [35:05]
A
So two things. Define it. Like, it sounds like it's a word that came up a long time ago. And then what does it look like today? Is it still called that or is it something different?
- [35:14]
B
Yeah, so, I mean, information assurance essentially is. Is morphed into cybersecurity. Oh, right. So the way that we looked at it before was like, how do you protect information? Which today we would say data, like web.
- [35:25]
A
You're talking. Okay.
- [35:26]
B
Yeah. The data itself.
- [35:27]
A
That kind of.
- [35:28]
B
How do you protect the data? Like, what's the. The ecosystem? So one of the things I helped in the military is a thing that we call defense in depth. Right. So defense in depth. Something that helped kind of co author to say, like there's layers of protection. Right. Like you have cameras outside of your house with motion detection. You have locks on your doors, you have motion inside of your house. You have a dog. Right. You have two big huskies. Yeah, Right. And then next to your bed, you probably have your own protection. Yeah. Right. And you also have protocols probably in your house that like, hey, if the alarm goes off in the middle of the night, what do we do? Family. Right. Wow. So like all these are like protection levels in defense and depth. And that really is what's morphed into cybersecurity, what it is today. And it really is treated the same way.
- [36:13]
A
Yeah.
- [36:13]
B
Like you have all your assets that you own, assets you integrate with. So that really is what cyber really is doing, is creating all those protections. And then the detections which are looking for the anomalies, which, like, if you have your Google nest or your ring, they're like, hey, somebody strange came by your house at 2am and slowly drove by. Maybe they were scoping out your, your neighborhood or something.
- [36:39]
A
Yeah.
- [36:40]
B
So those are the sort of things that, you know, we built into Defense in Depth. And now cybersecurity has taken over as, you know, the thing that we do that makes sense.
- [36:50]
A
Tell me about some books you've. You've read.
- [36:52]
B
Yeah, So I was, as part of this job, I recently went through this psychometrics. And you guys should, should look that up if you're listening. Psychometrics, Psychometrics. But I was recommended this book. I talked about a cold plunge, right. Of like, I'm waiting to get a cold plunge. And it's part of my kind of discipline routine and I've heard all the great benefits of it. And I'm a life hacker in general. Right. And she said, I have this book for you. And it's not about the physical benefits, it's the mental benefits and the mental awareness that you have with a cold plunge. And you should read it. It's called Dopamine Nation. And I would highly recommend this book to anybody. It's absolutely fascinating and essentially the summary of the whole book. The punchline of the book is essentially, anything you do, anything you do in excess can be excess dopamine, which is a drag. Right. So anything you do. Right. So if you cold plunge too much. Right. The benefits of cold plunge can become dopamine can become negative. Right. So it really, what it did to me is it kind of was like this amazing awareness of like, you know, A lot of things that we do with that are good. We're like, we're going to do them every day. Yeah, well, the problem doing it every day is it doesn't turn into the benefit that you would hope. It actually creates the negative dopamine drag. Right. Which then reduces your serotonin and then it becomes this counteractive thing where it's a beast that you have to feed. Then if you don't feed it, the beast takes over. So the book just impacts that whole thing and it goes through. She's a psychiatrist, she goes through case by case by case. But again, my biggest takeaway was like, you know, I'm an extreme guy. I do one thing, I do it amazing and I go like inch wide, mile deep. And what that book told me was like, be careful on the mile deep. Don't let it take over. Because then it becomes that dopamine dragon and you got to feed the beast, otherwise you don't feel phys.
- [38:56]
A
Like. Yeah. Is that like a physical, you're saying a physical drag?
- [38:59]
B
Yeah, physical. No, mental. More mental.
- [39:01]
A
Okay, mental.
- [39:02]
B
Yeah, it's like, it's like the Met. It's like the whole book is on the mental side. So it starts with everything. Like it's case by case studies of, you know, people who have addictions and how to solve the addiction problem. But then it backs out into, you know, the cold plunge craze. Yeah, right. Or like you read Huberman and Huberman's an amazing, you know, bio scientist and really like, you know, between him and Peter Atti are my two sources of, of all things lifestyle related and health and longevity. But he even says like you only need to cold plunge like three days a week. That's it. Three days a week for like three to five minutes. Not every day. Right. Because again, it's not the physical benefits anymore, it's the mental benefits. Now all of a sudden, if you're only doing it for the mental benefits, it's feeding that dopamine which is then has that negative drag throughout the day. So yeah, dopamine nation highly recommend it audible. It's the way that I read all my books.
- [39:59]
A
I'll be ordering that one today.
- [40:01]
B
That's fantastic.
- [40:01]
A
Wow, okay. Incredible. Just looking back at your life, not necessarily professionally, not necessarily personal, it can cover the two. Is there a turning point that you can.
- [40:16]
B
Yeah, look at. Yeah, I would say, like. Yeah, I mean the, the turning point in my Entire life was 25, my wife had went through multiple miscarriages, finally got pregnant. We're good. The Bumps come in. Yeah, right. I'm still in college, but, like, you know, things are great, right? Like, she finished her degree, she's starting to work. She was a teacher. Six months pregnant, Things are still looking good. And then in the middle of the night, you know, water broke, and we're rushing to the hospital. You know, we're. You know, we had really no family was around us, don't know what's going on. And, you know, fast forward. We give birth, our daughter doesn't make it through the first day. And that was the most lowest part of my entire life. That, like, brings emotions even now to this day, because I remember the moment in the room, like, holding your baby, and you've been waiting for a baby, and you finally get the baby, and you know that the baby's not gonna make it. Right. Yeah. And we had this most beautiful baptism for her. But, you know, I was a seeker at the time. I wasn't a Christian, but I walked out of the room, and we had been going to a church mostly. My wife wanted us to go to this church, and, man, God had the pastor sitting outside of our room waiting for me. I mean, I walk out of the room and I'm like, imagine, like, up to this point, everything in my life, Jeff, I've controlled everything. I've controlled everything. Like, I want to be the best athlete. I was. I want to be the best in the military. I was. And in that moment, like, the lowest of low was like, I control nothing. I can't even take care of my daughter, you know? So it was this lowest moment for me in my entire life. And then here's my pastor sitting there and just, like, that shoulder to lean on. And at that moment, like, literally, it changed everything in my whole life because, like, I realized I couldn't control it. I realized my faith is everything. Jesus is everything. And from that point forward, like, I think it's like everything in my life started to kind of come in balance because I knew, like, you're not really in control. Stop trying to control. Right? And your motivations are not aligned with, like, the motivations that really are aligned with where your faith is. Right? And just every. I mean, literally, I look back 20 years. 20. I'm 48, so 22 years later, and I can see that moment in that room, and I see the calling that God had on me my whole life, from Honduras to my wife bringing me there in that room with my daughter. So it was recently. I've been wanting to get a tattoo for 20 plus years, but I've never gotten it. I finally, in this transition, decided I'm doing it and it's to celebrate my family. But I got a halo put on to remind me of my first daughter, Kristin. And fast forward a year later and I had my first girl, Bella. Right. So, like, one year later. But, yeah, that was, you know, to make it. I mean, not make it too serious, but, like, that was. Yeah, that was the moment, man, that, you know, I look back and I'm like, God, like, you stamped your approval on me at that moment and said, now you're mine, right? Now I know you're going to listen to me. And since that point, like, I just. I see him in everything I do, even at this job, I see just like it was perfectly created. Yeah. Just for me to step in to a titan, a giant, a shark's shoes, you know, it's incredible. Never in a million years would have thought, like, I'd be in this position, but, you know, God's put me here, man. That's incredible. Wow.
- [44:04]
A
Well, what a story. Well, is there any one or several things you'd say that, like, really shaped you.
- [44:11]
B
Yeah.
- [44:12]
A
Into. Into who you are today?
- [44:14]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think the. The discipline that I learned, like, in sports and, you know, not being good at something like school. Yeah. Right. Like that first semester in college. Yeah. I. I wanted to quit. Yeah. You know, like, I wanted to quit. Like, it was hard. I'm, like, getting tutored. I'm like this. I don't get this. Yeah. You know, like, I didn't want to do it. I would say discipline has been an anchor to me. Like, I'm. I've never been the guy that, like, closes the bar down, goes to client dinners and, like, wants to celebrate or. Yeah. I've always been like, the discipline. Like, no, no, I gotta wake up tomorrow morning. Right. I gotta work out. I gotta be my best. Because, you know, our bodies there, it's a temple, man. Like, you got to take care of it, otherwise it's gonna fail and rely on it. Especially when you travel so much you can't afford to get sick. So I would say discipline is that one. And then the humility side of it, I'll just tell you and shout out to my beautiful bride, because. But she's the one that. That reinforces it in me. But, man, you need someone in your life that is going to call your bs. Yeah. Right. Someone in your life that's going to tell you, like, hey, yeah, like, your perspective on that's not right. And it's someone that you love unconditionally, that you trust their opinion. You may not agree with it. Like, there's things that she says and I'm like, I don't agree with you, but trust me, like, that resonates in your brain.
- [45:35]
A
Yeah.
- [45:36]
B
And you're like, look, if your better half is telling you that, you probably should listen. Right. So I think those two things for me is like, you know, the discipline is just like allowed me to perform at the level I perform. Yeah. And the flip side is, is, you know, obviously in the having the equilibrium of my wife keeping me kind of balanced the whole time and keeping me rooted into, like, who I really am. Yeah. That's what's really shaped me into kind of who I am.
- [46:05]
A
It's incredible. All right, so let's talk a little bit about your discipline routine. What does that look like each day?
- [46:12]
B
Yeah, I mean it's, it's evolved. I mean, so much. I mean, I used to be just a wake up and grit and just go lift weights, you know. Mutual friend of ours, Bartis.
- [46:23]
A
Yeah.
- [46:23]
B
Right. When we had you anointed that again, like knowing people and connecting. Yeah. Remember the question I asked him? I think maybe you had left, but I said, like, what would be the one thing that you would do differently if you were my age? And this was years ago. Yeah. And John said two things. He said, get a peloton, start biking and get a cardiologist.
- [46:42]
A
Cardiologist.
- [46:43]
B
I remember that. Remember that moment. I bought a peloton that night and I went and got a calcium scan. A cardiologist. Etc. Right. So that's always been like my, my thing, right. Is like, yeah, anything I can do to better myself because I want to be a centurion, I want to live to 100, but I want to be someone who likes Peter. Tia says, like has quality years later in my life. So like, sure, be the grandpa that can pick his grandkids up in 80 and jump in the pool and have those quality years. Right. Great book. Outlive or Outlaw? I think it's outlive or outlast.
- [47:14]
A
No way.
- [47:15]
B
Peter Attia.
- [47:16]
A
Stacy Miller just told us last incredible about Outlive.
- [47:20]
B
Incredible.
- [47:20]
A
No way.
- [47:21]
B
Incredible. But a lot of things that he does. So like, that's part of my discipline. Right. So it's like diet, nutrition, exercise, you know, getting all the preventative stuff. The body scans for skin cancer. Right. Like all these things that we know is going to get us. So that's kind of the root. Right. So if that's the root of like Physical performance. Then it's like discipline on the spiritual performance.
- [47:45]
A
Yeah.
- [47:45]
B
Right. Having the, you know, discipline to do quality time with God and having the, you know, kind of meditation moments and. And then I think discipline and work. Right. Which is, you know, again, one of my strengths, I think, at work is, you know, I'm always fairly cool head to every conversation. Yeah. It's very difficult, in fact, you know, because I've been in the military. I can, I can say this, but I always tell people when they get excited, I'm like, hey, guys, it could be a whole lot worse. People could be shooting at us right now. Right. So, like, let's take it in perspective. Like, this isn't the end of the world.
- [48:19]
A
Yeah.
- [48:19]
B
Like, calm down. It's okay. Let's think about this from a different perspective. And I think that's also discipline. Right. Is like knowing when to, like, really use two ears versus when to, like, fill the room with your voice. That takes discipline. Right. Of knowing, like, hey, I got the answer. But, like, I need my team to find the answer themselves. Yeah. Because if I just give them the answer, it's just going to create that back to dopamination. That fix for them.
- [48:43]
A
Yeah.
- [48:44]
B
That they don't need to problem solve on their own. Right. So to me, it's like, I talk a lot about. About discipline. Really. Because it's a whole ecosystem that, like, you have to live and breathe it.
- [48:54]
A
Yeah.
- [48:55]
B
And you have to hold yourself accountable to it. Yeah. You know, but like, I really do truly believe, and I get bracelets for a lot of my companies that always talks about, like just 1% every day. Right. Is like. Because a lot of times, like, you could be negative yesterday, but if you just get 1% that day, you can control that. Right. So if you're disciplined and just saying, I'm going to be a little bit better to be like my kids. Right. Yesterday wasn't a great day.
- [49:17]
A
Yeah.
- [49:18]
B
But today, like, I want to spend quality time with my girls or one of my daughters and hear a story from them or I need to be better to my wife or at work. Like, you know, yesterday wasn't a great day, but today will be the day that I turn it around and I make it different. Yeah. So to me, it's like, the discipline is really what gets you through. Because there's going to be moments. Right. Where you can't work out. Sure. Right. And like, if you're disciplined, then it's got to be in the back of your head of, like, it's okay. But tomorrow I will work out, and you will do it. And then the last thing is, I think for me, it's. I'm very much a man of my words. So, like, when someone does say something to me and I commit to that, like, word is your bond. Yeah. Right. So when I say, like, I'm in, like, you got to be in. And that, again, is, like, when people aren't in that mindset, they have discipline problems.
- [50:05]
A
Yeah.
- [50:05]
B
Because, like, you got to say, like, no, no, I committed to that. That is my. That is my commitment. I have the discipline now to make sure that I actually follow through on it. That's incredible. Yeah. So discipline is. I mean, I think Jocko Willock says all the time, like, discipline equals freedom. Yeah. But I think when you live it, it's not necessarily freedom. Like, do whatever you want.
- [50:24]
A
Yeah.
- [50:24]
B
It's like, no, no, it's freedom because you don't have those regrets. You don't have those things eaten in the back of your head of, like, I'm not good enough, or, like, you know, I wanted to work out, but I just can't work out. And you think less of yourself. Yeah, I think this world just tries to beat people down all the time. Sure. Right. Like, that's just. The world's created to, like, make people feel less of themselves. And I think, like, people need to believe in themselves first. I think before you can love, before you can love your wife, your kids, like, you gotta love yourself.
- [50:53]
A
Yeah.
- [50:53]
B
You gotta look in the mirror and be like, no, no, no. I love who you are. You know, like, we're not great today because of whatever reasons, but we can be great tomorrow. Yeah. And then to me, it's just, like, discipline gets me there. It's like my root. Yeah. Yeah.
- [51:05]
A
Special. All right, so I want to end. I want to end talking about what this next new chapter looks like. This is just so encouraging.
- [51:14]
B
Yeah.
- [51:15]
A
Before we do, though, I do just want to say this. I could see now why a guy like Robert, like, in here, in your entire story going through this interview, I could see why he goes, you're my guy, because now I see the character resemblance. I've always said this. He was always my favorite shark. Always my favorite shark. He's a complement to entrepreneurs in general, to the business world. He's the show that you don't have to be, like, big, tough guy, no matter how much money or success you've had. Like, his humility comes well through that camera. You don't need to sit in a coffee shop with him for an hour. To see that he's the real deal. So like when, like a guy like that is gonna hire a guy like that.
- [52:12]
B
Yeah.
- [52:13]
A
And, and it's cool now to sit here and do this and like feel it. Yeah, it's very, verify it.
- [52:18]
B
It's very true about him too, because I, I'll tell you, you know, when I first interviewed with him, it wasn't even an interview. Like Robert literally said, like, so what do you want to know about my company? It was almost surreal to me. It kind of caught me off guard a little bit. Right. Because I thought for sure, like he'd be kind of gr. Yeah, it was more, it was, it was less about like getting to know me. He wanted to know like who I was, you know, what, what, what I want, what I wanted to know about his company, how I could like, you know, he could see me, I could see myself in the role. Incredible guy. Like, I can't wait to get to really get to know him because, you know, board member, founder, investor, you know, and I already can get glimpses of the company and like what he's created and you know, that's where my mindset is now. Like, you know, build, build on what he's created and how do I take it to the next level, which is where we all want to get it to. Yeah. Because all the bones are there. Like, he's done, I mean, starting from a small practice in Canada to literally like a thousand person global powerhouse now, you know, with the biggest brands in the world all using their services. I mean, absolutely incredible.
- [53:26]
A
What are some of those feelings like that, that like the one word feelings like afraid, confident, like unpack some of those. Like going into this, you're getting ready to start this soon.
- [53:37]
B
Yeah. I mean, technically I'm kind of already doing both jobs. Right. It's like you're stepping in and it's not like a cold start, like they want to warm start you. So like, you know, Robert and I are spending a lot of time together at night on videos because he's living in Australia right now with his family. Super gracious in his time, but you know, we're really getting me ramped up. Yeah. So it's just for me, it's just, you know, he says this all the time. He says constant forward momentum. Right. It's like one of, one of the things that he says a lot. And I think of that like as I go into Q4 and my chairman tells me just yesterday on the phone, he's like, hey Chris, I want to make sure, you know, this, like, there's one skipper in your head, but you own Q4, right. You start one October. Jeff, you run businesses, right? So when your chairman says that to you, right, like, okay, we got to go. We got to go. So there's, there is a sense of urgency with me.
- [54:33]
A
Yeah.
- [54:33]
B
Like a real sense of urgency. And in culture. Right. Like, I think Robert knows it. Like, I'm going to iterate on his culture.
- [54:42]
A
All right, folks, what an incredible, incredible interview that was. I know for me personally, gosh, I had an idea what to expect, but, man, you took it to the next level. I appreciate how deep you went into these stories. Thank you.
- [55:02]
B
I.
- [55:02]
A
And I think I'm going to speak for a lot of people. Wish you the best with your next venture.
- [55:08]
B
Thank you.
- [55:09]
A
You're. You're. You really are. You're. You're. You're an interesting human, and you're an incredible human. And I, and I, I'm so glad I got a chance to sit here and interview you. So it's always my hope, my prayer that this lands in the hands of people that are struggling in one of these areas, whether it's discipline, attitude, humility, whatever, and, and you. This can just be some light for them, a reminder that no matter what it is you're going through out there, it doesn't matter. You are never, ever, ever alone. Although it always feels that way.
- [55:43]
B
That's right.
- [55:44]
A
But you're just not alone. So thanks for taking your time. Really, really appreciate it. And to everybody out there, as always, thanks for joining us. I welcome your feedback. It's been so helpful. It's helped us, number one, rebrand the show, which is the biggest thing. People had a hard time out there finding interesting humans because there's a lot of shows in and around it. So the feedback's helped me rebrand to the Jeff Hopeck show and also got some great feedback recently on. Would you mind, Jeff, sharing in the beginning how you know these people? Because somebody had asked me, they go make a pay to get them on or. And it's. It's been friends and friends of friends. So, Chris, thank you. Thank you again. It was. It was really an honor. And a lot of people want to say thank you for your service. I'm sure we'll see in the comments, but thank you for your service, too.
- [56:37]
B
Thanks.
- [56:37]
A
Thanks everyone. Thanks for watching the Jeff OPEC show. Be sure to subscribe and follow us on all socials.