Ep 39: Gary Young : Survivor, “Mother of All Surgeries”

Summary

Episode 39: Gary Young – Survivor of “Mother of All Surgeries”

In Episode 39 of the 🎙️ Interesting Humans Podcast, host Jeff Hopeck engages in a profound conversation with Gary Young, a resilient cancer survivor who underwent an extraordinarily complex surgery. Gary shares his harrowing journey through diagnosis, extensive surgery, recovery, and his unwavering faith that fueled his survival. This episode not only highlights Gary's personal triumph but also underscores his dedication to helping others facing similar battles.

---

1. Introduction & Initial Diagnosis

The episode begins with Jeff introducing Gary, emphasizing the uniqueness of his cancer story and the complexity of the surgery he endured.

Gary Young: "I had started having some stomach challenges, and it's like cramping once in a while... finally get to a doctor that knew what it was after a series of tests."
[00:31]

Gary recounts experiencing intermittent stomach cramps, leading to a six-month period of misdiagnosis. Initial diagnoses ranged from ulcers to bacterial infections, delaying the discovery of his rare appendiceal cancer.

Gary Young: "I sat across from a doctor at Emory University who proceeded to tell me that I've got a rare stage 4 cancer of the abdominal cavity, Appendiceal cancer... they probably had less than a year left to live."
[00:31]

2. Discovering HIPEC Surgery

Unwilling to accept the grim prognosis, Gary and his wife Amy embarked on a relentless search for alternative treatments, uncovering a radical procedure known as HIPEC (Hyperthermic Intraperitoneal Chemotherapy) combined with CRS (Cytoreduction Surgery).

Gary Young: "Amy went on the mad search to find out that there's a pretty radical surgery called HIPEC."
[02:03]

This search led them to Dr. Sardi in Baltimore, a renowned specialist in this rare and aggressive treatment, enabling them to schedule the surgery within 30 days—a remarkable feat given the typically slow medical processes for rare cancers.

3. The "Mother of All Surgeries"

Gary describes the surgery as the most intricate he has ever undergone, lasting 14 hours and involving the removal of multiple organs and significant tumor mass.

Gary Young: "They took out my spleen, my gallbladder, they took out my appendix... and then proceed to shake you like a paint can for two hours."
[05:30]

The procedure included:

• Cytoreduction: Removal of as much tumor mass as possible.
• HIPEC: Infusion of heated chemotherapy directly into the abdominal cavity to target remaining cancer cells.

Gary endured 18 pounds of liquid tumor spread throughout his abdominal cavity, making the surgery not just extensive but also highly risky.

Gary Young: "There was 18 pounds of tumor spread throughout the abdominal cavity... It's a liquid type tumor."
[08:57]

4. Post-Surgery Recovery & Complications

Post-surgery, Gary faced intense pain, swelling, and a grueling recovery period, including seven days in the ICU and three weeks in the hospital. Despite initial success, the cancer recurred twice, necessitating further surgeries and intensive treatments.

Gary Young: "I spent seven days in ICU and then went on to spend an additional three weeks in the hospital."
[08:14]

His second surgery went smoothly, but complications arose leading to severe infections and a near-fatal sepsis, adding layers of difficulty to his recovery.

Gary Young: "I got septis and came really close to dying... it was a miserable, terrible, very painful level of suffering during that time."
[15:32]

5. Faith and Personal Transformation

Throughout his ordeal, Gary credits his unwavering faith in God for his resilience and positive outlook. His belief provided him with peace and purpose, even in the most challenging moments.

Gary Young: "I think there's a God that still does miracles... I know who brings the future."
[16:07]

Gary discusses how his faith transformed his perspective on life, emphasizing hope, joy, and the importance of living an abundant life as promised by his beliefs.

Gary Young: "Romans 15:13 became my life verse... May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him so you may overflow with hope through the power of the Holy Spirit."
[24:49]

6. Advocacy and Abdominal Cancers Alliance

Deeply moved by his own experiences, Gary became actively involved in Dr. Sardi’s Abdominal Cancers Alliance. The organization aims to raise awareness about appendiceal cancer, reduce misdiagnoses, and provide support to patients navigating their cancer journey.

Gary Young: "Our goal is to get the word out to the medical community, but to really to patients to help them in their journey."
[03:47]

He emphasizes the importance of education and support, striving to ensure that patients do not feel alone and have access to the best possible care.

7. Legacy and Future Endeavors

Gary envisions his legacy as one of faith, mentorship, and community support. He is involved in various projects, including a ministry called Cloud Walk and the development of God’s Home, a prayer sanctuary on his property.

Gary Young: "My mission in life is to be a shepherd of hope and to come alongside and shepherd people in a way that provides encouragement and hope into their life."
[24:49]

Additionally, Gary enjoys personal hobbies such as car restoration, fly fishing, and skiing, which he often shares with his family, integrating his passions with his commitment to mentoring and community building.

Gary Young: "I love to hang out with my family, my nephews... I love to ski. I got a group of college buddies I ski with."
[62:51]

8. Personal Life and Mentorship

Gary highlights the importance of relationships and mentoring in his life. He mentors his nephews and participates in retreats that focus on spiritual growth and community building.

Gary Young: "She's experienced that kind of resurrected or reoriented life that I talk about... to watch my sons change and to grow into the men that they're growing into by experiencing this with me."
[46:55]

Through his Reveal Group, Gary fosters deep, meaningful relationships that emphasize spiritual discernment and mutual support.

Gary Young: "It's the difference of what we've done in the Reveal group... truly knowing him, ourselves and getting our answers that way."
[52:37]

9. Overcoming Challenges and Maintaining Hope

Gary discusses the mental and emotional challenges of living with cancer, stressing the importance of not letting the diagnosis consume his spirit. His approach focuses on maintaining joy, peace, and an abundance mindset despite ongoing health battles.

Gary Young: "Life is short, but the mission is too critical... How am I going to bring that hope into people's lives?"
[59:35]

He emphasizes living intentionally to help others, transforming personal struggles into opportunities to provide hope and support.

10. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with Gary reflecting on his journey, the importance of faith, and his commitment to mentoring others. Jeff encourages listeners to subscribe to the podcast to support and stay connected with such inspiring stories.

Jeff Hopeck: "If this had impact on you, hit that little subscribe button and get notifications. It helps us, and then it helps everybody listening."
[74:14]

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Gary Young: "I was diagnosed with a rare stage 4 cancer of the abdominal cavity, Appendiceal cancer. It's a silent killer."
  [00:31]

• Gary Young: "Amy went on the mad search to find out that there's a pretty radical surgery called HIPEC."
  [02:03]

• Gary Young: "They took out my spleen, my gallbladder, they took out my appendix... and then proceed to shake you like a paint can for two hours."
  [05:30]

• Gary Young: "There was 18 pounds of tumor spread throughout the abdominal cavity. It's a liquid type tumor."
  [08:57]

• Gary Young: "I think there's a God that still does miracles... I know who brings the future."
  [16:07]

• Gary Young: "Romans 15:13 became my life verse... May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him so you may overflow with hope through the power of the Holy Spirit."
  [24:49]

• Gary Young: "Our goal is to get the word out to the medical community, but to really to patients to help them in their journey."
  [03:47]

• Gary Young: "My mission in life is to be a shepherd of hope and to come alongside and shepherd people in a way that provides encouragement and hope into their life."
  [24:49]

• Gary Young: "I love to hang out with my family, my nephews... I love to ski. I got a group of college buddies I ski with."
  [62:51]

• Gary Young: "Life is short, but the mission is too critical... How am I going to bring that hope into people's lives?"
  [59:35]

---

Tune in to hear Gary Young’s inspiring story of survival, faith, and his unwavering commitment to helping others navigate the complexities of rare cancers.

Transcript

[A]

All right, today I have a very special guest, a good friend of mine, Gary Young, survivor of a particular type of cancer we're going to get into. But what's so unique about this story is it's probably the most complicated surgery I think, that I've ever, ever heard. And we're, and we're going to get into the details of that. But, Gary, what. I'm just curious. The day that made you pick up the phone and call the doctor. Take us all the way, take us into that. What were you feeling?

[B]

Yeah, well, backwards just a little bit. And tell you about the journey. I had started having some stomach challenges, and it's like cramping once in a while. I didn't really know what was going on. And so we spent some time kind of just going in, misdiagnosed for probably about six months. You get an ulcer. Let's deal with that. You were on vacation. You probably got a bacteria from the water, dealt with that. Finally get to a doctor that knew what it was after a series of tests. And we knew it was starting to get a little more serious because there was more tests and a little bit deeper the type of doctors we were starting to see. But I sat across from a doctor at Emory University who proceeded to tell me that I've got a rare stage 4 cancer of the abdominal cavity, Appendiceal cancer. It's a type of tumor that bursts and it produces a fluid that goes and roams throughout your abdominal cavity. It's a silent killer. And they proceeded in that meeting to tell me that I probably had less than a year live and that I was starting to need to think about end of life. And you can imagine the body just went into a full numbness and just trying to understand and figured that out. And then Amy and I got home, had to tell the boys, had to tell my wife. And we didn't like the answer. We didn't like the answer of that's the diagnosis and that's the time of life left. So we went on a MAD search, I should say Amy went on the mad search to find out that there's a pretty radical surgery called hipec. Did you smell that? H I P E C H I.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

H I P E C hipac and it has another component to it, too. Crs it's cyto reduction surgery.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I'll go on to tell you a little bit about what that actual surgery looked like. But that search took us into a handful of doctors that are well known around the world. And we went and interviewed those.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And all this took place with a lot of. A lot of involvement of people and a lot of orchestrating. God played a role in just getting us into the right place at the right time. And immediately we found the doctor in Baltimore and the story has been amazing ever since in terms of finding him. And then within 30 days already being in surgery, which is a rare thing to get to get in that quick.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. Yeah. But that's how we ended up with Dr. Sardi in Baltimore.

[A]

Okay, so. Okay, Dr. Sardine, Baltimore. So he'll be, he'll be instrumental in this story. I'm curious, is when you say rare, like rare because it's misdiagnosed or rare.

[B]

As in, you know, one in a million type? You know, it's on the rare disease list. So of all the cancers, there are some that are more prevalent. This is a type of cancer that is not seen in too many people.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's becoming more and more prevalent.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But abdominal cancers, there's multiple types of cancers. Mine happened to start in the appendix, so it varies a long name, but it abbreviates to pmp. But it's misdiagnosed, especially in women because they'll think it's maybe ovarian cancer or uterine cancer. And so they'll start doing a surgery or they'll go down a path of trying to treat in certain way. And come to find out the doctors will get in there and realize this is not what they thought it was. And that causes time delays, which. It's a very quick moving cancer. So you don't want to lose time. But it also that misdiagnosis can create scar tissues through other surgeries that make it harder to ultimately fix.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We're involved, I'm involved in a organization that Dr. Sardi started to try to go get the word. It's Abdominal Cancers Alliance. And our goal is to get the word out to the medical community, but to really to patients to help them in their journey on this so they don't feel like they're alone in the journey. I was very, very fortunate and led to through this process. But many people are lost. They don't know where to go. They're out there talking to Google and getting all kinds of answers. And so we're trying to figure out what can we do to bring truth and bring direction and even bring some type of navigation through that process for them. Because there's every. Every week, Dr. Sardi tells me, patients walk into his. His office and I have been either misdiagnosed or even mistreated. And. And it's life threatening. It either changes the quality of your life or it actually has the effect on whether you're here or not.

[A]

Oh, my.

[B]

Our goal is to get the word out and spend time doing that.

[A]

So Emory, I'm curious. So they found it and do they offer this particular surgery?

[B]

They do. There was a doctor, the doctor, actually, that gave me that diagnosis, very much a doctor that's involved in it. The only reason we chose to go elsewhere is we wanted the best of the best. And so we put a short list together of ones that came with such high recommendations, talked to other patients that had gone through that with those doctors, and that's how we ended up with Dr. Sardi. But yeah, most hospital systems have someone in there that's starting to either just getting into this or have been doing it. It's just for me, I wanted someone that's been doing it for a while, and Dr. Sardi had been doing it for about 20 years.

[A]

Has he really. Oh, my gosh.

[B]

I wanted someone that was well practiced in it. It's a very radical surgery. So you want to get it right. For sure.

[A]

So let's, let's get into it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you get on a plane, you're on the way. You knew what to expect. Right. You're going to Baltimore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you know the time? Did you know?

[B]

We did. We, you know, again, we just feel like it was just divine intervention because things happened to get us there that quick. And with where I had been misdiagnosed for so long, I had so much going on that I needed to move pretty quickly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so, yeah, we went up and had a chance to have our last meal in Baltimore, where Amy. And we called it our last meal because I had no idea. It's a very high mortality rate and it's a high complication rate. Didn't know if I was going to come out, you know, with complications and a lower quality of life or. So we're. We're having dinner the night before. I was at really amazing peace, which is another whole God story. But, yeah, we went in and checked in the next day and then it started. It was a 14 hour surgery total. It starts with 12 hours of the cyto reduction where they cut me from top to bottom, as high and as low as you can go in the abdominal area, opened me up and then proceeded to pretty much take out everything, surgically remove everything that you could possibly remove. So they took out my spleen, my gallbladder, they Took out my appendix, of course. They took a third of my stomach, the right side of my colon, sectioned portions of my intestines, scraped the liver, scraped the lungs, and literally for 12 hours, just cut and sliced and. And then at the end of that 12 hours, they sew you up. They fill you full of a hot chemotherapy at 107 degrees. They put you on a cold table to stabilize your body and then proceed to shake you like a paint can for two hours. And the process is sloshing that chemotherapy inside your abdominal cavity just in case they miss something with the actual removal of what they think is the cancer cells. And so that two hours is obviously radical on your body. So when you come out, you're an unrecognizable individual. I was swollen. I had 17 tubes in my body, reducing, taking the drains for the fluid. I was tubes in the. In pretty much every. Every organ you had or every orifice you had. And. And according to my wife, my head was swollen about double the size of a normal head. I spent seven days in ICU and then went on to spend an additional three weeks in the hospital. So they call it the mother of all surgeries. Only. Only other place that nurses would consider more challenging is the actual trauma ward, where you come in and things are happening from accidents and things, you know, severed body parts and things. But outside of that, this is considered, you know, kind of the mother of all surgeries, because it's not something that happens in a trauma. It's something you plan to go in and do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And. Yeah, so after 14 hours and then the days in the hospital and the stories from there is just. It's pretty incredible. Which, again, part of it for me was just the idea that I think there was obviously divine intervention, because the one thing they told me in advance is that there's one organ that if there's. It's a vital organ, and if it's also attacked by this cancer, that that's where they sew you up and say, there's nothing we can do, and you probably have less than a year. Which organ is.

[A]

Which organ is that?

[B]

It's actually part of the. It's the large intestine. There's only so much of the large intestine they can take out and not affect your life. And so they had got in there and found 18 pounds of tumor spread throughout the abdominal cavity. 18 pounds for a guy that weighs a hundred.

[A]

Tumor?

[B]

Yeah. 165 pounds for a guy that weighs. That I actually had. It's a liquid type Tumor. It's not just a mass. It's a liquid tumor that there was 18 pounds of it. And it was on everything inside the abdominal cavity other than that one organ. So I believe we have a God that still does miracles.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

I think everyone is certainly a walking miracle.

[A]

That's incredible. See, try to angle your mic up towards you a little bit and should to the whole. Yeah, there you go. Awesome. All right. So what were. Before you went into the surgery, what were you thinking? What were you and your wife thinking? Like the percentage chance of coming out. What do they tell you?

[B]

Well, they don't have a percentage because, you know, again, everybody's different. My doctor gave me a lot of confidence because he's, you know, just in the sense that it helps when you're healthy. I had taken care of myself, so I was in good physical condition. And him kind of like where I'm at. A guy of faith. He also realizes that the mental side of that is critical. And he saw that I was mentally and spiritually strong. And so he just felt very good that not knowing what was going to be inside in terms of where it was on the organs and all that looked like outside of that, as if we were to get through. And it wasn't something that he couldn't deal with on the internal. He had a lot of confidence that just getting through the trauma of, you know, the recovery.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Something that I was going to do pretty well with just because of where.

[A]

I was at mentally.

[B]

Exactly. I was 49 years. 49 years old at the time.

[A]

49 at the time. What, what kind of surgeon is he?

[B]

Like a general surgical oncologist. Okay, so oncologist and has been in all kinds of different types of cancers throughout his Life. But this 20 plus years ago, it just. This one hit him that there's not a lot of people focusing on it. And so he started stutter studying under one of the guys that was the original doctors kind of invented this. And you can imagine hospital systems for a long time rejected it because it's just too radical.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And you're putting too much risk and such. But they have come to show that this is a life saving procedure. And unfortunately in the medical community even today there's just a misdiagnosis that people are unaware whether that's your general practitioner. Certainly there's a lot of those that don't know about this. But even in the oncology side of it, that there's a lot of folks that don't know or aren't willing to step into this as an option. So a lot of times they'll try to treat people with a standard chemotherapy bath. And it just. A standard systemic chemo just doesn't penetrate that abdominal cavity.

[A]

It doesn't.

[B]

So people are going on, they're doing all the other damage to their body and it's not having the impact that you'd expect it to inside of the abdominal cavity. So that abdominal cavity wall is pretty intense. And so that's the part just until you get in and learn that. And that's why there's so much misdiagnosis.

[A]

Right. So it's being misdiagnosed and then mistreated on top of being misdiagnosed, which causes.

[B]

Further complication when they finally figure out that it is something different. When you find they finally get to a doctor that is doing it and will do hipack. Now they're dealing with scar tissue. They're dealing with some things that actually are going to be hard to, to, you know, go find that cancer because it's going to get stuck into scar tissue.

[A]

So when he. So he had you opened up and he still didn't know from when they made the incision if the cancer had gotten into that large intestine. Was it just an eyeballing typ type of thing or he has to run another test. Once he had.

[B]

Once he.

[A]

How did he know if it was in the.

[B]

Oh, because when they're in there, that's exactly what he's finding. It's a very unique type of cancer. You know, this, this fluid that's attaching to your organs, he's in there and he's seeing that laced on things. And that's what he's doing. He's surgically removing that from the wall and lining of your stomach, from all the organs. So when he got in there, that one organ that was. If it would have been completely laced with it, then that's when I would have had a diagnosis that probably coming out with, you know, a shorter certainly life life. But the quality of life would have been dramatically different too because there you're now dealing with. If they have to take a certain portion out and you end up with colostomy bags and you know, you're just, you're living a different type of lifestyle than you're. Than you're used to. So I was very, very, very blessed to come out and not have any of that.

[A]

So back to like, like when they put, when they put you under. So right up until like those last couple seconds, you didn't. It wasn't like, oh, once they removed this thing out of me, I'm gonna wake up, good to go. You just had no clue what the outcome.

[B]

No clue until today still. Today I have this year we celebrate 10 years. And that's amazing.

[A]

Awesome.

[B]

Yeah. So nine extra years than I was certainly expected to give. But it has come back twice. And so it's one of those cancers that no matter what this done, it's. There's no guarantee it's. And they don't know. They don't have no idea why it comes back, why it's in these, you know, these people that get it and. And then others don't. There's belief that it's bacterial driven. So somewhere along the line I probably got into some bacteria that created it. But the. That we have that this sitting with you right here today. I have no idea that, you know, the last time I had only gone a year and a half, went seven years and didn't have it. And then they treated and actually took out a section of my abdominal cavity, the wall, and replaced it with a piece of bovine. And that we kind of thought was just a little bit of. Well, something was probably left behind from the first surgery. And then a year and a half later it was back and it was more of the free floating that we had had from the first one. So just actually, literally just last June, I was back in Baltimore having another surgery. This time the surgery went really well. He was able to remove. Had another one of those elements where no question that God was involved because there was a section that was so far up in there, he didn't know if he'd get to it without doing damage to me. So that came as a surprise. And when he got in there, there was no sign of that portion that was unseen that he had literally seen on the scan. So again, I think God's hand's been all over it. But the surgery went exceptionally well. It was only six hours and then I proceeded to get infection. About three days later, found out there was a perforation in the abdominal cavity and I got septis and came really close to dying. I spent the next three weeks in the hospital removing that infection out of my body and trying to treat that. And it was a miserable, terrible, very painful level of suffering during that time for sure. But here I am, I mean, incredible quick recovery and back to life. And as you know, building spent the last year and a half building my. So which is incredible.

[A]

The home is just incredible. The coffee room had people blown away because I love Coffee. And I've never been in a coffee room in somebody's house and certainly never a coffee room to that. To that level.

[B]

What a blessing to be anything and everything. That's awesome.

[A]

That was awesome.

[B]

Well, spending time with you was great. I'm glad we're getting reconnected. I just. Super blessed to think about just that, you know, being able to sit here with you today and I have no idea what the future brings, but I know who brings the future. And so to sit here in peace and just know that I'm going to enjoy every minute I have and.

[A]

Yeah. Is there a name for this, that. For the procedure itself?

[B]

It's that high pack.

[A]

Okay. That's the name of that procedure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the name of the cancer is.

[B]

Probably the easy way to say it is abdominal or appendiceal cancer.

[A]

Okay. Appendiceal. Got it. Okay.

[B]

And there is a. Again, I should know it at this stage after as long as I've walked with him in his organization and sitting on his board. And to this day, I still can't say the name of the medical term of this. Yeah, it's abbreviated as pmp. So if you type in pmp, you end up getting the long name of this type of cancer. And. Incredible.

[A]

Now are there more people around the world doing this?

[B]

Yeah, there are. And there's some really good doctors. And one thing we're doing in this organization that I'm involved in with him is we're spending time pulling those doctors together to bring the credibility. So when patients find us and find our site and find all of this information to journey, they also realize that it's not coming from somebody that's an untrusted source. It's the top doctors in the country that are coming together to bring this information forward. And then like I said, the other part of that is that we're wanting to journey with these folks. So we're setting up a team. It's almost kind of the Susan G. Coleman of abdominal cancers. And because it's rare, it doesn't get a lot of attention. So we're trying to be that attention for people, but we want it to be. And when I say that about the Susan G. Coleman of abdominal cancers, it's really what they did in terms of it was groundswell from the patient community.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even though we want to focus somewhat on the medical and make sure the medical community is fully engaged in this and they have the resources and the education, our goal is to make sure that we're really tooling up and empowering the. The patient and the caregiver. Right. And helping them through the journey. And so that's. That's our goal is to get to that type of exposure.

[A]

So had you not. Had you not gone to Baltimore and taken that route, you were given one year.

[B]

One year, yeah.

[A]

And what would that have looked. What did they tell you that quality of life would have looked like in that year?

[B]

Yeah. Again, I don't. There's no doctor that could sit until you're inside and understand and you see what is actually happening with the cancer. The scans can give you an indication and why. They could look in there with the scans and with the laparoscopic cameras to see that I had a lot of tumor, and that's why they're in. You know, the answer is that just. You got to just realize it's a. It's a shortened life. But in that period of time, it could be a really tough portion because it starts shutting down your ability to eat or your ability to digest. And so you can imagine, you know, you just start losing weight, functionality, your organs start shutting down. And it's a. It's a tough exit. So again, that's the. That's the part of it that we want to come alongside as many people as we can because they need help in that process, what that looks like on the backside.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And some folks have it so, you know, tough that they. They do have to live through that period. So we want to be an organization that actually comes alongside them in that journey of whatever that finish time looks like.

[A]

Yeah. Is it. Is it as much equipping, educating the consumer as it is the. The medical community itself?

[B]

That's probably the bigger focus for us. We want the medical community to be engaged because we don't want the mistreatment and the misdiagnosis anymore, but we believe it's the community that's going to be able to come and help us do that. So when a patient goes into a doctor, if they're educated, they're starting to tell them, hey, what about this? Or if they do get a mistreatment and they go and find out the real answer through us or through another doctor, they can be tooled. We're going to provide tools for them to go back to the. Whoever it was that gave them the wrong diagnosis and say, hey, you need to know about this. There's actually something out there for people like me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so we're using the groundswell of the patients and the caregivers to. To help us get the word out in the voice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Rather than trying to do it just through the medical community.

[A]

That's incredible. Have they alluded to how many people have had this surgery in the past?

[B]

I don't know. Like, it's, you know, it's. Oh, it's thousands. It's getting. It's in the thousands. I'm sure it's getting up there to where it was definitely considered rare. It's still on the rare disease list. But, I mean, it's. I'm probably more exposed to it because I'm on a list where I'm willing to walk and talk to patients, you know, about the. You know, referencing my process and my experience with Dr. Sardi. So I'm constantly seeing it, but I'm. I mean, just take it, you. And I remember a perimeter church over here, and there's two people within the church that have had gone through it that I've been walking with, and one of them, she's still dealing with it today. So it is very, you know, to me, it's much more apparent than, you know, when you say rare, you think, to your point, is it just a few people? And now it's starting to affect more, and they're finding out it's actually starting to affect younger people. Dr. Sardi said that early on it was people typically in their 50s and 60s and above, and now he's starting to see it in people in their 40s. And as you know, they're starting to see the same thing with colon cancer and some of the others. It's actually coming into a younger age.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we need to be doing. And it's, you know, whether that's the way we eat or it's in our environment, but we don't always know. But it's definitely having an impact on the younger generation.

[A]

Yes. Of the. I'd be curious, the two people that you mentioned, did they get diagnosed correctly the first time or what were the. What was their walk?

[B]

Yeah, they. Both of them were very fortunate enough to have found doctors that are very much like Dr. Sardi, where, you know, they're at the top of the game and they were diagnosed properly, and both of them were on two different journeys based on, you know, how much cancer they had and where they were found in that process, but certainly improved in the process by finding the right place. But much of that today is just by luck. And so we're trying to change that to not be a luck game, but to be an educated game and get to the right place.

[A]

What other kind of things are you doing? For, like, awareness. I knew we had the golf tournament.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. One thing we're trying to do is kind of create in different parts of the country, almost little hubs, and find folks like myself that happen to be, you know, he's up in Baltimore, and a lot of the community, they've had a golf outing up there and trying to get exposure for the last 20. Well, 15 to 20 years somewhere in that range here, you know, down here in the south, you're literally on your own because there's no community. And so that's what I'm trying to do is become somebody here, get others that are in the area to help join me to become part of this army. But, yeah, the golf outing, to be example of that. You came to the one we had a few years back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there it. You know, we'll talk a little bit about it.

[A]

He was there.

[B]

Dr. He was there.

[A]

Never forget it.

[B]

Yeah. And that's been the real cool part of the story, is that we've become friends. He's got me involved in an organization where I feel like I can give back and help, but it's also. He knows my faith. He's had a chance to come down and meet my friends like you, that where he sees and has noticed just, you know, difference in the way people operate and think down here and just how much they care for each other.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it started him on a faith journey together as well. And he's come down and actually joined me at a men's retreat that I've been involved in. And it's just been a beautiful part of our relationship that we're growing together in this faith area.

[A]

That's incredible. So I want to. I want to go back because that's. There's so much hope in the. In the front end of this and the back end and. And. And even during it. So where did you get this attitude from and this mindset and just help me understand a little bit more about who you are and how you went into this. I could feel it. I could sense it. You're different.

[B]

It's a. It's. To me, it's all faith. I mean, that's. It's really. I believe that's it. I mean, I've always had a reasonably positive attitude, had really good upbringing with my parents that just instilled in that you just, you know, it's very. A little bit more on the, you know, let's do things right with others and, you know, let's step in and work hard. So maybe more on the moral side than on the face side. But that was still an element of my life. But as I got down here and truly Perimeter played, Perimeter Church played a big role in that because it's first time I had ever walked. After going to church much of my life, I walked into a place that actually taught me rather than preach to me. And it was very attractive. And my faith journey really took off when I was just about to have our first child.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I just. He's like, what is this that I've believed and do I really believe it? And so I think that's a huge part of what's allowed me to go through all of life's ups and downs, journeys. The circumstance side of it. I've always been able to kind of set aside and not be affected by the circumstance. But this has taken me to a whole nother level. One, when you see God work immediately into and very specifically in your life, that's certainly has a big effect. But just in how I've watched him use this has been the biggest thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I've literally been on. I've had a chance to actually give my talk in front of groups of men before. And it's. It's been a journey of hope, peace and joy. And so it's funny you said the word hope because he's had me as a shepherd, as an elder at Perimeter, one thing we do is shepherd families. And that's carried over into other parts of my life. So I've realized I've had that gift of shepherding and I love that part of it. But what he's now given me is a story that's this incredible story of hope. I mean, there's points where I just. For the first time in my life, if it wasn't for my faith, I was hope hopeless. I mean, literally hopeless. And so the idea that I've journeyed in that and what I learned through it now I couple that with this, this shepherding piece. And it's really. I think my. My mission in life is to be a shepherd of hope and to come alongside and shepherd people in a way that provides encouragement and hope into their life. For that reason, Romans 15:13 became my life verse. And that verse talks about, may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him so you may overflow with hope through the power of the Holy Spirit. And I love that about the verse because I experience incredible joy during this journey. Crazy. Think about. Paul talks about it. Yeah. I can't tell you. I was really joyful in icu, but I was joyful coming out. And this idea that joy comes in the morning has been very real because I come through these very tough experience. I mean, really tough experiences, and I very quickly have joy. And I attribute it to the fact that I've got to see how he used it in the life of my kids, my wife, my family, the. The people around me that are seeing things in this journey.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And experiencing. They wouldn't if we wouldn't have gone through it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's the joy part. The peace part is just beyond. I mean, you truly talk about the peace beyond human understanding.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, how do you get to a point in icu? On the seventh day, the last day in icu or second to last day, I had my worst night. My mom was on duty that night, and I was literally done. The pain was so intense and so real that I told my mom, I want to go home. I'm ready to. I'm ready for heaven. And she said, I'm not. We're not gonna. We don't know what's gonna happen long term, but we're not losing you on your birthday. But to be at this idea that peace, even in death, that death, death truly had no sting, that was a pretty crazy thing for me to actually experience. I heard about it. You can understand it. But it's the idea of really getting your base of your faith and realizing, I believe what I believe. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, I've been saying this to people. I've been saying it to myself, but my faith was tested, and it was. It was really an assurance to know that it was real. That's incredible. Almost probably for me, maybe I'm a little more stubborn or blockheaded or something, but I had to go through something this horrific to actually learn that.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

It's. But it's been an incredible gift.

[A]

So right before. Right before they put you to sleep, what would you say? Like, the last minute, what kind of emotions, what kind of feeling? Was it just peace? Was it?

[B]

Yeah. Like, I. I had my headphones on in that last one. I eventually got separated from Amy, which was tough. You know, when she. When they said, all right, you've got to step away now, obviously, that was extremely emotional. And so I put some headphones on, and he just was. At that time, he was speaking to me through music, and I had a Crowder song on that just, to this day, just brings heavy emotion. And when that. When I had to handle. Do you remember yeah, there's two of them, actually that were pretty, pretty powerful. Oh, how he loves us.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And then I'm not, I don't think I'm going to remember the other one right now. But they, I then had to hand them the headphones and I just had this last few minutes and there was smiles on my face. The folks in the operating room had, I mean, they were just like, this is crazy. I was telling them, you're being prayed for right now. And they're like, I'm being prayed for. What do you mean by that? And to be able to look up to Dr. Sardine joking and just be at this level of just, I know God's got this. And to actually joke with them, but also to truly say to them, I believe you're, you know, I know a whole team of people that are praying for you guys right now. And it just, it just set me into the stage of I'm, I'm, I'm covered, I'm cared for and I'm covered and I know who's got me. So. Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Total. I guess the answer is total peace.

[A]

Total peace.

[B]

Total peace.

[A]

That's remarkable. So, okay, do they literally have these organs outside of your body on a table?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like disconnected from your body?

[B]

Not disconnected. I mean, they, they're separated. So they have these basically these tongs that just pull the lining and you, you'd hate to even see how far that lining is. Your stomach is separated, but then they go. So they're cutting, you know, right through the muscle and the whole bit. But they, he has to be able to get in and way back up and tucked up underneath organs. And one thing I never appreciated, certainly even to this day, don't probably appreciate it to the level, it's true. But your organs actually are almost welded together. You know, we think of them as all these free floating, you know, my, my spleens here and my, they're, they literally meld together. It's like the flesh comes together so they have to separate some of those to be able to actually get in and between. And that's why it's so hard to do it just through the cyto reduction. So the chemo bath is why it's critical because that can get in and tucked into areas and areas where things that they might not have been able to get to with a knife. Yeah, yeah. Pretty, pretty intense, no.

[A]

Oh, my gosh, I can't even imagine. So that's that seventh day you said, where the pain was so intense. Where, and, and from what Was it just one area? Was your whole body?

[B]

Whole body. I mean I was still reeling from 18 hours or excuse me, 14 hours of the anesthetics. So just that on your body and then you're dealing with the amount of morphine and things that they're doing to, to take the pain away. So you're, you're mentally in a state that's just, you know, not your normal self. And so there's pain just in that there's pain because you're in the bed a lot. They got me up the very next day walking with, with these tanks that are holding these 17 tubes and you know, all kinds of fluids being pumped into you. And so it's a terrible walk. The idea that they even made you get up. Yeah, but you're not walking much, so you're starting to atrophy. So you're in the hospital. Everything aches and then obviously where they're doing they literally resectioning portions of organs and you know, all of that is healing on the inside, but it's, you know, in some cases pulling against in pain and then your body's trying to digest as they're starting to introduce fluids and food to your body. And then the minute you don't digest, obviously then things get pushed because of expansion inside your stomach. And so it's a. Let's just. I could say that it's, it's a miserable, miserable experience from that standpoint for sure. Just because the pain is, is more intense than anything that I hope anybody.

[A]

Really and morphine, morphine didn't even do.

[B]

Does certainly take the, you know, the, the sharp, sharp pains away. But I have to limit the amount of morphine because it actually doesn't do, I don't do well with it. And I think there are other patients that find the same thing. The morphine messes with my mind. And now I'm doing, dealing with just not feeling right and almost get a little bit just, you know, you get outside yourself and. And then all sudden the peace that I have because of my faith and where things are at just go away. Because now I'm dealing with, you know, I'm hallucinating in some sense based on the amount of drugs. And so I've always said I want to limit the amount of that. And so then they get into really you're just on heavy doses of aspirin and ibuprofen and it's coming in, you know, through iv, but it's just, that's all it is. Most of the, most of the medication for me, because I stay off of the heavy stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I just. And I never want to get addicted in any of it, so I really try to limit it.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Some of those stories are pretty horrific, too.

[A]

But then what was that? So you get seven days, you're out, out of icu.

[B]

Then I'm in a hospital bed for three weeks. And then they don't. Once you're released from there, you're still not in great shape, but they want you to stay local before. Before you go home. So people that live local, they're great. But guys like me, I had to be in a hotel room for the next. I think at that time, it was probably 10 days, because they want to see you can function, you know, eat and move, and there's no. No infections take place. So they want to close.

[A]

Right.

[B]

At least you're out of the hospital. So the ability to then transition to that and then ultimately home. But mine was pretty horrific on that first one because I got back to Atlanta and I almost went in a worse direction. I was. I was meeting all the things that they wanted all along in terms of progress. But then when I got to Atlanta, my body just said it, for some reason, didn't want to eat. I went down to £120. And I was in the. I was in the emergency room three times getting fluids just to stay alive. And so I was in a really, really rough shape. And my. My recovery at that point in time was probably four months of dealing with just not being a normal human being, not getting comfortable. And then once that recovery took place, it's just amazing how fast the body just started saying, okay, I'm ready. Yeah, life came back. And that joy. They say joy comes in the morning. Joy came in the morning. And I just. Four months out, I'm officiate my nephew's wedding, and I'm with my family reunion. Oh, 80 family members that get together. You know, this last year was our 49th year. And so just the joy of life and the taste of life. And I've been telling people, even our young pastor Jeff, and I've had a chance to talk to folks like him about what I've experienced through this and the idea of this abundant life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That, you know, life tastes different. The dark was so dark that the light is so light, if that makes sense. And. And so I'm experienced for the first time in my life, this idea of an abundant life that God doesn't just promise us life, he promises an abundant life. And so trying to understand what that means. I always assume that means, you know, not just worldly stuff, but just more ministry, more impact, more. And I've come to learn that the more is just more of him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the more I have a hymn, the more I see things and see people and relationships change and the way my. Impacts a better purpose, you know, more. More joy in the things that you do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. Yeah. It's a life just is sweeter. It's just really sweeter.

[A]

My goodness.

[B]

Yeah. I just hope everybody somehow, hopefully not through something like this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I just. My. My prayer is that just there's. That everybody gets a chance to taste this idea of the abundant life that he talks about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the life circumstances don't take you down into places of. You know, there's so much depression, there's so much hurt in this world today.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And there's so many things that we see at. That just don't feel right. But, man, when you watch him work in the midst of stuff like this, you just realize that it's all good. I mean, he's got us and our. Our forever eternal, you know, salvation is secured. And what more do we want than that?

[A]

What more? Yeah. Oh, now, is it back? Did you.

[B]

I came back a year. Well, after a year and a half from the second surgery. It came back in June. And as of right now, you know, I don't know if this is one where you can say you're in remission. You hope. You know, it's like. So you hope it's gone and it's never coming back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. But at this point in time, we're living as if it's gone. And, you know, I'll do scans every. Normally, every six months. This cancer that came back this time was a little bit more aggressive. There's great gradings on cancer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this one was a little more aggressive than the first two surgeries. So he's watching me every four months.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'll take. I'll be up in Baltimore doing tests and scans and blood work and such. But as of right now, you just set that aside and just get on with life and. And certainly pray that it's never come back.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There's a lot of ptsd. You know, people don't believe in this ptsd. I'll tell them they're crazy because, you know, I just feel for military folks, because that is real. The idea of just stepping back in that hospital can just. My wife and I could just. It could just take your stomach and take you down to A pit of ever, you know, thinking about ever walking back into the hospital again. But, man. Yeah, we're just. We're hoping it doesn't happen. If it does, we know we got the strength to get through it. It.

[A]

Yeah. Is it. Is it sometimes, like each hour. Do you think about it? Do you not think about it at all?

[B]

No, I do. I do. And that's the beauty of it, is just knowing that it doesn't consume me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It doesn't really affect the answers. But yet continually having a reminder like, I'll get a little cramp almost, you know, on a regular basis, just those little reminders remind me of the fragility of life and the importance to not get caught up in the things that are bothering me or, you know, chasing after things that don't make sense or don't mean anything. You know, one. One experience I had when I was in that period of the recovery, on the first surgery, I can remember walking through the house and I'm, you know, after, you know, a really good life. It's this idea of, you know, I've gone from a good life to a rich life, this abundant thing. But in that good life, I can remember in that period of time walking around and seeing all this stuff, from the beautiful cars to these beautiful pictures that showed all the trips we've taken and this house that was well decorated. And to realize that in the end, it meant nothing to me. I was in a place where I was in so much just hurt and so much need for something, someone, in this case someone to come alongside me. That. That's all I long for, is to be well and so realize that the earth's riches are just not going to satisfy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so there's beauty in that, that, you know, it was a hard place to be sitting there looking at all the things you thought you cared for and they.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They literally meant nothing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it doesn't mean that those aren't good things and that we can't enjoy them, but when it becomes those are the things we're chasing after.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It become to me, it's become. Those are. Become meaningless. Less. Less important.

[A]

What else has changed since going through such a. Such a big event?

[B]

How I see career, relationships. Yeah, certainly career. I mean, the idea I would take time out to build our final home. I mean, that's a change because you set your career on the side and you say, but it's important that my wife and kids have a place that's their legacy, that they have this beautiful home that we her and I actually spent time and even my boys were very involved in helping us build it. So it was a family event and adventure that we went on. But it's now something that. And what a beautiful place to come back after the third surgery and have my recovery there. And I really think, I think that's why it was such a good recovery.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It was the fastest recovery I had and it was just, I was in the setting that, you know, God had given us this credible property that we could put this house on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so that made a, that made a big difference. But yeah, what I do, how I do it, the what I do part is I've really come to the conclusion that he doesn't really care what I do. You know, I could go more full time into ministry. I could go into back into technology, I could go build homes. Different things that I've done. And, and he's not, I don't think it's a door this and a door that. I think it's just, he's just wants me to take him with him wherever I go. And if I do that, it's going to be good and there's going to be fruit in any one of those things as long as I'm surrendered to him in the midst of those things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So in the middle of trying to figure out what that next looks like right now.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaking of, what was the. You said you were in an event up in I guess North Georgia you just came back from.

[B]

I went to a men's retreat that I'm involved in. There's a really amazing ministry called Cloud Walk that's had a huge impact on my life. It's really learning how to just attune our hearts to him and just fall, you know, more in love with, with Jesus. And this ministry does an amazing job at that. And one of the things is tied to a men's retreat called Solely business. And there's 200 men, 100 men there for the first time and 100 men, they're serving those, those first time brothers. And it's just a way for, you know, guys to love on a group of guys and for men to be real. Yeah, it was a really rich weekend this time we had nine guys from Rwanda, 12 guys from Michigan. I think we had nine guys from Calgary that are ascending on and you know, trying to understand what this meant and the cultural aspect of that. To see the guys from Rwanda, you know, one guy stand up and say, yeah, we look at you in America and see what we think is just all sunshine and Right. Rainbows.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And to realize that there's brokenness everywhere. You know, they saw it. But what also was different is most of the men standing up and saying our, you know, in our culture, men would never sit there and be real and be vulnerable like this. And it's just a cultural thing. And they just were blown away that there's an environment like that where you could go be real, be your authentic self so you actually can understand who you are. To be able to change your life and move in the direction you want to. You have to understand that right now we're just. When you live a facade, it just doesn't allow you to actually step into what God has for you. And so that's what we spent time doing this past weekend. And this ministry also has a portion of it that I've been able to get involved in. I think I told you up in Clarksville we have a couple hundred acres where we're have a prayer. I guess it's considered a prayer sanctuary we'll call it. But it's an area that we've got a chapel being built. And I've been able to step into that role and helping in that. And it's been huge to be able to give back gifts back into something that's been so powerful in my life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so, yeah, it's about just opening the environment and creating environments for people to just be with their heavenly father and to learn what that relationship is. Yeah. No matter what I do, wherever I go back and, and what he has from a vocation, you know, those things are going to be a critical part of my, my future, whatever the future looks like.

[A]

I would, I would imagine that vocation has probably come down a few rungs in this process as level of importance. I would think maybe not.

[B]

But it's. I think that part of it I'm certainly learning is that the vocation part and he, if he calls me into that, that's my ministry field. So even though I look at this as, you know, there could be some full time ministry doing the building of the chapel and other things that I've been involved in like the shepherd work at Perimeter, you know, those are core to who I am. But I have just as much of a mission field and everyone has just as much of a mission field in. Right. In the corporate world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just about going in and look at those relationships differently than you do. You know, sometimes we just look at these people in this. I can talk about this, but over Here I really can't. And I can't be my authentic self. And when you realize that that's not the case, it changes that vocation. It becomes a ministry in and of itself, so.

[A]

Oh, that's cool.

[B]

So I don't, I don't. I. I'm not real concerned. I'm just literally going in. It's his hands and whichever direction he takes me, I'm ready to step into it.

[A]

That's incredible. What do you think you'd be doing had this not come up well out there running and gunning, so to speak, or like, what would life look like?

[B]

Fortunately, I've been walking with some men that have had a huge impact in my life. Part of it is this, this cloud walk. Ministry and perimeters had such a huge part that I left a lot of that behind that, you know, where you just, you know, you leave a lot of dead bodies in your wake.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you're, you're on a mission and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's more about the mission and, and the results than it is about the relationships that you're bringing with you. And so fortunately, I've walked with folks that I don't think I'd be to that degree, but I certainly would be living one of those lives where you just. Circumstances. If you got a good day, you feel good. If you're in a bad day, you feel bad. You know, it's just when you realize that that's not the case and all these truths are truths in your life that there's nothing that you can step into a day that's going to take that joy and that peace.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That hope out of your life.

[A]

So you almost like can't have a bad day. I mean. Right.

[B]

It's hard to. It's really hard to. Because the world will try to get thrown at you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I could literally come right out of a retreat and be on a spiritual high. And I mean, the stuff that they'll try to throw at you, whether it's coming at you from your kids or from, you know, your work or whatever it may be, just even turning on the news, will try to throw stuff at you, to just bring you down. And when you really look at it and see that most of that stuff is just the evil one trying to do his thing, and you just know that I've got an answer for that.

[A]

Trying to get in anyway.

[B]

Yep. You step up and put on the battle, put on the armor.

[A]

Yeah, that's it.

[B]

And. And go to war.

[A]

They're doing that now. The School. That's their verse this year is, is, is Ephesians 6, the whole armor. God. So they're going through that.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

Breastplate of. Breastplate of righteousness. And it's. That's so awesome. All right, cool. So you're. You were telling me a little bit about your wife, which is fascinating, the world that we're in right now. So what is she up to?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is incredible.

[B]

Well, man, you talk about an incredible journey to watch how she's come through this and where she's grown as well. She's always been in the executive recruiting space, and so she's had a really good career. You know, a couple tours with Korn Ferry and worked with some private equity groups. And she, you know, prior to. Well, just. I guess I'll start at the surgery side of things. The very first. She's very strong and very capable, very smart woman. And so first surgery comes along and she is rolling up the sleeves and we're fixing this and we're, we're not going to take that. I'm so thankful that she's that way because she found the right doctor and made all that happen. But, you know, there was just, it's. It was a lot of it. Putting it on herself and wearing that weight and then, you know, to watch us go through this journey together and how he's worked in my heart and how he's, you know, brought people in our lives and to watch. We went through a tough period right afterwards because she kind of got scared and felt like, you know, I had to really dive into my career. And she went down some, some, some challenges in that sense. And I was going in the other direction. I'm like, I am all in.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so we watched this little bit and, and how he's brought that restoration in our marriage and in. And how we see life in the same way. And she's experiencing that kind of. That resurrected or reoriented life that I talk about. And, and it's just been beautiful. She, in the midst of this, she gets an opportunity to go to work for Google and she's in their executive recruiting. I guess it's talent acquisition at a pretty high level. You know, kind of the AI space and technology space and show. You know, you can imagine she's really busy right now as they're all fighting for some of the top talents out there in this space. And. And yet in the midst of it, absolutely shown that God gave us that as a gift because with what has happened in her career allowed me to Take time out and build the home and for us to have this level home. For me to take a time out and do more ministry work in the midst of all this, for me to deal with health issues and things, just such a blessing. But in the process of that, to watch her do it with peace and with joy and to do it in the same realm that I was talking about, that she's experiencing parts of that abundant life as well, and that's probably been the biggest gift that I've had through this whole thing, is to watch her change and my sons. To watch my sons change and to grow into the men that they're growing into by experiencing this with me and to be on this journey with me.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's. It's. You know, it's a. I think all the things that people go through, you know, they're given to us for us to go through the exact same thing. Sometimes they just have to be more radical. And my mind happens to be radical.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, the one when we have adversity in life. I read something recently from the. The band King and Country. I guess they put out a recent movie.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And they talk about, you know, what. What sustains you in suffering or in what they call struggles. You know, the world will run from struggles, but what you realize sustained you through that is something that you're always going to cling to. You'll never run from that again. Well, for me, it was very clear. It was Christ. And so the idea that when. When anybody has, you know, these struggles in life, if they realize, you know, what brought them through that that's what they're gonna. That's what they're going to come back to. And that's the beauty of the kingdom. And why, you know, then they come back and say, I want to go give this back to other people because it's, you know, they got a taste of what this is all about. So giving the beggar the food.

[A]

Fascinating. How about through. Through recovery? Did you like books, podcasts, places you were getting fed? Favorites, Standouts?

[B]

Man, that's a tough one because there's so much I. So much of it's just been relational to me. It's really become very relational. And so I've got a group of guys, eight guys that I've journeyed with now in what we call a reveal group. And it's been so rich in that set of relationships that it's where I've learned and got most of my strength from.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And, yeah, we're doing things a Lot of stuff where we're going through like this idea of the 18th and 19th annotation. It's a Mago Christie kind of where we're actually pulling things from, you know, different, different times, eras in Christian times where they've gone through practices about how do we hear God's voice and how do we step into that. And so a lot of we're doing that together. And as we've learned to hear in a tune, the beauty of it is, is when I'm not hearing and I'm, I'm blocked for whatever reason or busy or whatever it is, I've got these eight guys that were pouring into each other, learning from each other and they're hearing from God and passing on truth through, you know, through these individuals.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I've come to learn that God speaks to us in more than just, you know, I'd have these long times in my life, I'd have these times I'd call, well, I'm going through a dry season, you know, and I'd still be doing the same things, quiet time, going to church, whatever it may be. But I've come to realize that he speaks to us in so many ways through nature, through people, through, you know, an inner sense, you know, through certain Yeshua's word. And so the more I mix that up and get engaged, the more I'm going to really understand what it is he has for me. And so to answer your question, we've been studying quite a bit together, but it's more about the discernment of hearing him and then listening to others around you to get affirmation because a lot of people will affirm in your life, whether you're doing right things or wrong things, you're going to get affirmation. And when you're doing it right and you're changing people's lives, there's probably a pretty good chance that you're doing the right things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so that affirmation, the confirmation of that has been really rich for me.

[A]

Yeah. So you said the word reveal, correct? A reveal group?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that like a discipleship group? Different.

[B]

It's different and it's similar in the sense that we, you know, kind of this had a four year curriculum. We just happen to be staying together longer because we've come to love each other. But probably the biggest difference is it's less learning the theology and the depths of that and really focused on the heart, the heart piece, walking and learning to walk and abide in Him. And so it's, it's it's part of this ministry where they've figured that out and they're learning from the saints of old and bringing those practices into things that we don't hear about in the standard church.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And, you know, we're fortunate that we were starting to hear and see some of that in Perimeter, but there's a lot of churches out there where you just don't get that. And so, you know, the depth just. You just. It's harder to go deep because you haven't learned how to do that yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so you're learning through man. And, you know, I've come to. I've got some people in my life that have taught me that you don't. We're not going to learn about God through other men. It's going to be through us knowing him, not knowing of him, but knowing Him. And that's the difference of what we've. We've done in the review group.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is truly knowing him, ourselves and getting our answers that way. Not through man.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, special. I love it. What. What are doctor's orders now for you?

[B]

You know, the one thing I'm going to push Armando, Dr. Sardi, on. In our organization is to. On the back end of this. How do we live with cancer? And I want the organization to focus more on that because that's where I'm at. I've, you know, the first one, we went seven years. So after five years, you think you're in pretty good shape. I was doing annual checkups versus six months. Right. So you think you're. You pretty much licked it. And then when it's back, you start realizing that some people, you know, have. Have to deal with this, living with cancer, knowing that it's there, whether it's live in your body or dormant at the time. And so for me, it's learning that I'm just in the process. There's a lot of people out there that, you know, think you need to eat this root and take this. And it's like, you know, what's truth and what's right and what's, you know, medicine versus what's natural. But in the end, I would tell you, probably the thing that I've really started honing in on is just taking care of myself the best I can, and that's eating better. We eat way too many processed foods, and I've never been great about eliminating some of those. You eat what's easy and, you know, so trying to. To think about things that are going in that aren't feeding Cancer cells the best I can.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I don't want to. I don't want my life to be focused so much on that that I lose the. The beauty and the taste of other things in my life. So.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That hasn't become one that it's like I'm only going to live and do this. This, this way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I'm just trying to be smarter in how I do that and. And just stay active and keep my mind fresh and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then if I ever have to go through it again, I'm. I just want to be good physically, mentally, and spiritually to be able to take it on.

[A]

Yeah. Well, he's confirmed that this, the. The mental side of it is so important.

[B]

He said it before I ever went into surgery and instruct me. And so it's just, It's a beautiful thing that I felt like I was there, but now I'm even. I'm even so much in a better place. Yeah. Just. Just the strength and the. The depth of the faith is just. I feel like I can go through anything.

[A]

Yeah. What a good place to be.

[B]

Good place to be.

[A]

So you mentioned before too, that the season one Jennifer Dickinson that had the brain tumor now here, and you unpack everything now where your stories are so similar, is that part of it? It's that she is just all about that mental side of it. I love the one thing she said before she was so, like, high strung and high stress. She'd go out run to run to like check a box. Like. Like you're almost like stress doing it. And the big difference, she actually sat right in this chair when I interviewed her is she said now she hears the birds. And that's like an example of just. That's so cool. Oh, yeah.

[B]

It's just not letting life pass you by, but it's right. It's stepping into life.

[A]

What do. What would you say? Like, maybe it's even happened somebody in your life that either has a big diagnosis ahead of them or I guess you're working with people who are dealing with the diagnosis. Like, what do you advise them? What do you say to you? How do you encourage them?

[B]

Yeah. I think the big thing is just that it's. It's the role that we play in people's relationships, I believe, is to figure out how to love them. I mean, that's the pretty simple commandment we were given. Right. Love him and then love others. And so I. If there's anything I feel like I'm learning and want to learn better, is this Idea of learning the love walk. And so when you sit across from somebody that doesn't have a faith, you know, you can't. I can't go into the level of this is what sustained me through this.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because they're not going to understand. So to sit across from somebody and love them where they need to be loved, and part of that's just, again, being attuned to him. What are you asking God right there on the spot when you sit across from. From somebody, what do you want them to know? You know, not me, I'm not going to know. But you do. And so hearing while you're talking to somebody to be able to say, you know, here's. Here's, you know, some encouragement that I can give you in the middle of this. And sometimes it comes from God, sometimes it's just, you know, someone else encouraged you in a way and you pass that on.

[A]

Yeah, pass it on.

[B]

But it's. Yeah, it's really just loving people where they're at, no matter what they're dealing with. And so I happen to have a journey where I can relate to these things. I can now sit across from somebody and actually see in somebody a sense of hopelessness, because now I've experienced it where I never had before.

[A]

True hopelessness.

[B]

Yeah, true hopelessness where I just don't. I don't have any answer. And that's when you hope they have a faith because they're sticking and leaning into the thing that I know is the ultimate sustainer. But if they don't, it's just the idea of, you know, giving them the encouragement.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That they can get through this because you got through it and here's the things that helped.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you just. You pass it on. But it's. Yeah. It's just loving people. Well.

[A]

Oh, I could see how this could go completely sideways. A lot of, like, why did this happen to me? How is this happening to me? Like, that kind of thinking, it's.

[B]

That's the human nature, that's the flesh side. That is us. And. And our minds always want to go there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't understand. I'm, you know, I've been good. I've been. You know, especially when you think I've been a moral person and you think that's the answer.

[A]

I put some money in the basket.

[B]

And you realize that it's a broken world and these things are going to happen. It's unfortunate. We deal with broken people and a broken world, but it's the idea that this was never meant to Be our home. And when we understand that, that we're working through this, to ultimately get to a place where we're with him forever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Changes you on how you. How you look at what you do in this world.

[A]

We want it to be home.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Right. We want this to be our home.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Give me as much as I can get for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm gonna be here forever. Kinda.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Think about, think about the way that most of us go through life. And I've certainly been there, but it's. It's this idea that life is short. So, you know, you just got to go seize the moment. You know, that's, that's. Everybody should, you know, should. Everybody should think that because you don't know if you're gonna step outside and get hit by a golf cart. Right.

[A]

So literally can't believe that happened today.

[B]

So we don't. You don't know what the tomorrow brings for any of us. So we all should live with that idea that life is fragile and life is short. So the only challenge is, is that a lot of people say, well, then I got to seize the moment. Well, oftentimes in the human side of that, that means I got to get more. For me, it's about me.

[A]

Me.

[B]

It's about me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when you really realize that it's. It's not. It's not about that, that it's. It's not about seizing. I think where a Christian steps into that is, yeah, life is short, but the mission is too critical. So if I've only got so much time here, am I living the mission that I've been given or the purpose that I've been given? And if that's critical, I step into the day different than I'm going to go seize the day for myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My mission, if it's truly is a shepherd of hope. How am I going to. To go. Go do that mission whether I'm working today or whether I'm on the vacation? How do I bring that hope into people's lives? That just maybe the receptionist at a hotel and I'm on vacation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How do you bring hope into that person's life?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Finding that purpose for yourself, finding that mission that you step into, that's the part that you go, seize not the moment, just because you think life is short.

[A]

So. Right.

[B]

That's a. That's a shift for me.

[A]

That's a major shift.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's more of wake up and how can I help somebody today or who can I help today?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Rather than wake up selfish, self centered, self seeking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do I get more? How do I win?

[B]

Yeah. And they all. That sounds, you know, the way we say that it sounds so like that sounds so it's easy. It's like, I don't want that. That sounds terrible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But in the human nature, we all wake up thinking about ourselves. How am I going to make myself feel better today? And how am I going to get my, my share today?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And even when you're doing it with the right intentions to some degree, it's really comes down to a heart issue. Where's my heart at?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And if you have the right heart, you're going to go do the right. I believe you're going to go do the right thing. So that's, that's why I'm working on my heart every day.

[A]

Let's tell me about your legacy a little bit. Have you thought about it? What do you want to be known for? What do you want people to say at your funeral?

[B]

Yeah, I have, I have thought about it. Fortunately, I'm involved in, you know, some things where I get to tell this story. So I think about it probably quite a bit. And then again, when doing life with the guys that I do life with, we talk about this quite often because we're challenging each other. Where, you know, every stage of life you're in. I'm in a group called the crescendo group and it's, you know, instead of calling ourselves the finishing well group, it's a topic that we talk about often. Finishing well. Right. But we didn't. One of the guys in the group did not like finishing well because it's like I'm not finishing anything. I'm at the start, I'm at the peak, and then I'm heading into something even better.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We're actually calling it the crescendo group because we're at the crescendo even ready to head into something better.

[A]

That's cool. I love it.

[B]

Yeah. So stepping into that idea is from a legacy has been really, you know, a big part of it. I, I think for the longest time I've, as, you know, as I started jumping into this faith thing, I always knew that I wanted to strive, that I did it well here for him, not for me, but did it well here that I'd hear those words, good job, you know, well done, good and faithful servant. And you know, we all in some sense long for that. But I'm learning that I also want to hear in this life I want to hear people, you know, whisper behind me saying, he's been with Jesus. And that can be. If I make my heart his home, then that's my legacy. That's the greatest legacy I can. I can give. Because if I make him my heart his home, then there's a good chance that whatever I do on this earth is going to be better for other people than if it was for myself. And so that's my greatest legacy, more than anything that I can do. But I, you know, while I'm here, I want to hear people say, he's been with Jesus because then there's a good chance they're going to get. When the cup overflows, they're going to get good stuff. They're not going to get the stuff.

[A]

That comes off special. That's awesome. What do you like to do outside of all the ministry work you do and shepherding and what else are you into?

[B]

Yeah, I love to hang out with cool dudes like you.

[A]

Tell stories.

[B]

Yeah, tell stories is cool, but I.

[A]

Dogs getting hit by golf carts.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

If you came five minutes earlier.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, there's so much. I mean, that's the thing I. That's the beautiful thing about the abundant life, is that there's. There's not. There's really nothing that I don't do. I love. We have an incredible family, so hanging out with my family, my nephews, are a big part of my life.

[A]

Are they local?

[B]

Yeah, some of them. Most of them are local. But getting a chance to, you know, kind of invest in them is huge, and that's been a good part of it. But I love to ski. I got a group of college buddies I ski with. I got a group of friends that we fly fish together. So my challenge is I like to do too many things, and so I got to figure out what limited time, what, how do you do it, and make sure that you spreading across the group, you know, the people I want to be with.

[A]

Where do you guys fly fish at?

[B]

We actually. I grew up in Michigan, and spending time in Michigan's a huge part of. Huge. It's kind of a happy place on Lake House we have up in the northern part of Michigan. Yeah. So I learned there. But here in Georgia, where we're working on the project in Clarksville for what we call God's home. That 200 acres right around the corner is the so Sokoi River. And so that's where most of my fishing has been in the last couple years. And so my. I've had a Chance to go with groups like my Emory buddies. Very cool story there. But a group of us went back in 2000, went to the executive program for our MBA and we thought, you know, that there's about out of the 60 folks that went through the program, there's probably 10 of us that remained pretty good friends. And, you know, we just assumed what we had in common was school and our time together there. And we've come to realize that really what we have in common is a faith journey that we're all on. And so it's been really cool to do it to where the conversations change. And as we mature, we can really, you know, help each other out, really, and get engaged in each other's lives in a way that we wouldn't have early on. So that's been really rich. But we do it having fun, you know, shooting skeet and fly fishing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Things like that.

[A]

That's awesome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's that project all about, the one in Clarksville?

[B]

That's the one that's tied to the ministry called Cloud Walk. And it was really, you know, the good friend of mine, Larry, who got this vision to create a place, he's had a ministry for 20 years where he was bringing people into a closer encounter with Jesus, but it was always time based. And so he was given this vision by God to say, I want a place that people could go 24, 7, 365 to go be with me. And so when you got the vision, I think the story goes that there was maybe $5,000 in the bank outside of what it took to run the current industry.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know what? Seven years later, there's over 200 acres and multiple buildings and a chapel that's just about to be finished. It's just been really cool to see how God has provided all that. No debt. So it's been one of these where it's just been as he provides, we build. And it's just been really rich to be part of that.

[A]

What's it called again?

[B]

It's God's Home. And it's part of a ministry called awesome. Yeah. Part of a ministry called Cloud Walk.

[A]

That's awesome. Awesome.

[B]

Yeah. I love to do car restoration. You and I have talked a little bit about that as well.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

My boys and I restored a truck, 1950 Chevy pickup. And we've got a thirst to do more.

[A]

You do?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What are you gonna do?

[B]

Well, we'd love to do a like a 69 Camaro. We did that into full restoration. The next one we do I think the boys would really like to do a restomod, if you've heard of that, where they. They don't just restore it, but they take an old vehicle and they put all the modern stuff. Stuff in it, like a bigger engine and better brakes and, you know, you get all better suspension.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you. You can drive it like a daily driver, but you're still driving an old classic. I mean, so they call that a resto mod and.

[A]

Resto mod.

[B]

Yeah, it's become pretty popular and. And the boys and I have an interest in doing that with a Camaro I want to do. I'm a big Land Rover fan, so we want to take an old Defender and do that same thing.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, that's where I've seen them done. The shop that are doing them and selling them for a ton of money.

[B]

Yeah. There's a lot of money in it and there's a lot of interest in it, so.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's why we built on the property. We built a barn and part of it. It was really cool. When we found the property, we were just like, man, is this all going to work out?

[A]

And. Yeah.

[B]

And it was just. He. He orchestrated things in ways that should have. We should never be there. Just based on where costs were and when co hit costs went like this and. And how he orchestrated things for us to be there. But it was so evident. We asked him how he. What he wanted to name the property. And it's actually, there's these beautiful rock outcroppings as you remember seeing. And so he gave us the name OTR on this rock, meaning on this rock, he's going to build his church. And so we have branded that as our OTR shop. And we have a barn that will ultimately start doing restorations. And the hope is, is that as the boys get time in life, they can mentor their kids and mentor others and come alongside other men to do things inside that barn that are gonna not only teach skills, but also teach life lessons.

[A]

Yeah. That's special.

[B]

So part of the legacy.

[A]

You got great vision, man, on your legacy. I love it. It. I just read it last night, actually. It's a book. Josh Turner, his biography. 1. I think it's his only book. It's called Man Stuff. And I set the book down right after I read the part with him getting his home. And it's so similar to yours, which they couldn't find a home, they couldn't find their property. Couldn't find it. And his career had already taken off. The musician Josh Turner Okay. And he said it was when they put their list together and him and his wife prayed over it that, like, a listing popped up, but not where it should have. So they were looking for land. So they're just looking, you know, segmented off. So you're not seeing land with homes. Well, somebody mislabeled their what they were selling, and it was like, I'm making it up. And it was about 20 ish acres and had a home on it. So it shouldn't be under land. Well, that populated under land. It turned out that it was not only the amount of land they wanted, but it checked every box of everything they wanted for the home they were going to build. Like.

[B]

Yeah. That it just couldn't happen without you.

[A]

I know. It's so awesome. That's cool. All right, I got one la. One last question for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what's your favorite? What. What's your favorite thing to do on Earth? And. And I'll give you, like, an example. So, like, mine is transferring knowledge, right? So I love learning over here and then teaching over here. Now, right now, the season I'm in, it's with my kids. So I love, like, I'm taking these notes here, and everybody I interview, I've got these great notes from these interesting people, and I get to teach my kids this. So that's the season that we're in. So it's like a particular book has helped me, like, really get into it. For some people, it might be running, and that's okay, and it might change. But, like, right now, like, where you're at in your life could be ministry, could be anything at all. Like.

[B]

Well, as you can imagine my head spinning because there's. There's things that I just absolutely am passionate about. But if I had to boil it down to my favorite thing, if I could only do one thing, maybe that's the way to think of it. I would. I would peel it back to the idea of shepherding. And that's a word that sounds very faith or religious, but it's maybe a better way to say it is. Mentoring is a part of that because, again, talk about the nephews and different people that I get a chance to pour into. But it's just looking at people in a way where you treat them like Jesus did, where he's, you know, he's how a shepherd takes care of their flock. How do you. It's really just loving on the people that are closest to you and that are, you know, that you've been given in your care and I love that I've got. It's incredible family. And if I only spent time with the family doing whatever it is that they want to do, I would be fine with that. I mean, I don't have to do the things that I love. I love to ski. I love water skiing, snow skiing, the whole bed. I love adventure. But if it's something that it's just somebody wants, their thing is having coffee. I love the fact I'm doing something they want to do, but I'm getting a chance to. To walk with them, care for them in a way. And that is my absolute favorite thing.

[A]

That's your thing.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's definitely. That's definitely it. I, you know, I hope in that process of. That I can get to see more of the world, but I love to see. Yeah, I love to do trips with my wife Amy and the boys even. And so if I can do some of these things that I talk about, but go do it in different parts of the world and experience different cultures, that's. That's pretty high off the list.

[A]

The shepherding, does it end with where multiplication starts? Like, you're not. That's not as interesting as sitting with the family. Like, you're not sitting with them so that they can learn something and go multiply it out or.

[B]

That's a. That's an effect that I know is going to happen.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, once you've been given something that's good, you're going to give it away.

[A]

It's just.

[B]

It's the reality of it, or people are going to see it in you and try to understand how you got there. So I think the spiritual multiplication, which we've learned through perimeter, is just absolutely critical and what we're called to. Yeah, but it's. I don't look at it as I'm. I'm providing the tools for them to go do that. I'm just doing the things in their life that enrich their life and that enriches my life in the process.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

Yeah, I would say that that's it. I just. Yeah, I've got a really good group of people he puts around me. And the idea that. The other thing I love about the shepherd is what. What did he do when he had the 99 and 11 went off, really go pursue that one. And that's pretty cool because, you know, it's like, I can't be everything to all those people that I'm. That are in that he's put in my care, in my life.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But he makes it very clear, as long as I stay close to him, he makes it very clear who needs me the most at that point in time. And it may not be my wife, may not be my. It may be somebody that's. That one that's lost and, you know, needs to be really pursued.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And be intentional in. And obviously, all of us at this stage in our life, we're all trying to figure out how to be intentional in the things we do. And I think a good shepherd is intentional about taking you places to feed you well, you know, meaning not just food, but things you need to sustain.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They, you know, a shepherd protects, so that's a big part of it. But a shepherd also just loves and, you know, loves. Loves their flock. So, anyhow, it's awesome.

[A]

Gary, thank you so much, man. Thanks for taking the time to come here. So glad you came. Five minutes after you came. This would be like the joke episode forever about the golf cart, that the runaway golf cart is crazy. So. Yeah. So to date, over 97% of people that consume, whether it's shorts, content, episodes, anything at all on my channel 97. And it's not. It sounds crazy, but it's. It's not too far out of line. Do not subscribe. So my hope for everybody watching, if this had impact on you, hit that little subscribe button and get notifications. It helps us, and then it helps everybody listening. So an interesting little nugget. A good number to operate as is is 50, but a lot of people just don't hit the subscribe. So that's my ask. And thank you for your time so much.

[B]

I always love spending time with you.

[A]

Appreciate it, man.