Ep. 40: Art of Training Seeing Eye Dogs [Behind the Scenes]

Summary

🎙️ Interesting Humans Podcast - Episode 40: Art of Training Seeing Eye Dogs [Behind the Scenes]

Host: Jeff Hopeck
Guest: Jim Kessler, Director of Training for the Seeing Eye, New Jersey
Release Date: February 21, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 40 of the Interesting Humans Podcast, Jeff Hopeck delves deep into the world of guide dog training with Jim Kessler, the Director of Training for the Seeing Eye in New Jersey. Jim's unique journey from Wall Street to training guide dogs offers listeners an inspiring narrative of career transformation driven by passion and purpose.

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Guest Background: From Finance to Guiding Paws

Jim Kessler shares his transition from the financial sector to the compassionate field of guide dog training. Coming from a family rooted in corporate accounting and finance, Jim pursued a business major at Miami University in Oxford, Ohio. After spending over two decades in the financial services industry, including a stint at the Federal Reserve Bank, Jim felt a yearning for more meaningful work.

Jim Kessler [07:05]: "I was always striving for something more, striving for something that I've always been attracted and interested in teaching."

His pivotal moment occurred in Morristown, New Jersey, where he observed Seeing Eye instructors training dogs. Fascinated by their work, Jim conducted thorough research before joining the organization in 2001—a commitment spanning over 24 years.

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The Seeing Eye Organization: Mission and Operations

The Seeing Eye, founded in 1929, stands as the oldest guide dog school in the world. Located in Morristown, New Jersey, it serves individuals across North America, including the United States, Canada, and Puerto Rico. Jim emphasizes the organization's comprehensive approach, from breeding to training and matching dogs with handlers.

Jim Kessler [09:09]: "The one big takeaway was I learned, I think personally, I learned a lot about myself, who I am as a person."

Breeding and Puppy Raising:
The Seeing Eye maintains a state-of-the-art breeding facility in Chester, New Jersey, with a dedicated geneticist ensuring optimal temperament in its dogs. Puppies spend their first seven to eight weeks at the facility before being placed with volunteer puppy raisers—families who nurture and socialize them until they're ready for formal training.

Jim Kessler [14:31]: "We have a full-time geneticist on staff. We breed pretty much 100% of all our dogs to control certain things, predictability, like temperament."

Training Philosophy:
Central to their training is the concept of "intelligent disobedience," where guide dogs learn to override commands that may lead their handlers into danger, such as halting at a traffic light despite being told to move forward.

Jim Kessler [04:29]: "It's called intelligent disobedience. So if you're at a curb and you say forward into the street and a car is right in front of you, the dog will disobey the command saying, it's not safe, I'm not going forward."

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Matching Dogs with Handlers: The Art and Science

Matching a guide dog with its handler is both an art and a science. Jim explains the meticulous process that considers the handler's pace, pull, and living environment to ensure compatibility.

Jim Kessler [16:09]: "What's most comfortable to them, the right fit."

The Seeing Eye hosts students on campus for 25 days (18 for retrains) where they undergo rigorous training alongside their dogs. This includes orientation walks, lectures on traffic safety, obedience training, and developing a foundational relationship with their guide dog.

Jim Kessler [55:35]: "A day in the life of a student includes park time, breakfast, morning and afternoon trips, lectures, and evening routines to solidify the bond between dog and handler."

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Challenges and Solutions: Navigating the Path Together

Jim candidly discusses the challenges both dogs and handlers face during training and everyday interactions. Common issues include dogs' distractions in high-stimulus environments and handlers' adapting to the responsibility of guiding.

Jim Kessler [30:31]: "Our success rate is about close to 70%, which is a good point for anything."

Consistency emerges as a crucial element in overcoming behavioral challenges. Whether it's managing a dog's pull or ensuring they remain focused during interactions, Jim underscores the importance of a stable and predictable environment.

Jim Kessler [67:22]: "Consistency is key with dogs. Dogs thrive with a consistent environment."

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Personal Insights and Heartwarming Stories

Throughout the episode, Jim recounts memorable stories and insights from his extensive experience. One standout tale involves Chad Foster's first day with his guide dog, Sarge, illustrating the profound bond that forms between a handler and their dog.

Jim Kessler [35:06]: "You want to have the dog anchor in a crate or restrict his freedom in a safe way. Tying a dog to an oven door was probably not the wisest choice."

Such anecdotes highlight the delicate balance of trust, training, and mutual respect that defines successful guide dog partnerships.

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Advocacy and Supporting the Mission

Jim emphasizes the Seeing Eye's reliance on donations and volunteers to sustain its mission. The organization operates independently of federal or state funding, making philanthropic support essential.

Jim Kessler [65:02]: "We rely on donations. We have over 600 volunteers, primarily puppy raisers, who are the backbone of our program."

Listeners are encouraged to support the Seeing Eye through donations or by volunteering, contributing to the continued success and expansion of guide dog training.

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Conclusion: A Rewarding Journey

Jeff Hopeck concludes the episode with heartfelt appreciation for Jim Kessler's dedication and the transformative work of the Seeing Eye. The episode serves as both an informative guide to understanding guide dog training and an inspiring testament to finding purpose beyond traditional career paths.

Jim Kessler [71:39]: "It's the people that drive our organization. Dogs are huge, but it's the people that really, at the end of the day, it's awesome."

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Notable Quotes

• Jim Kessler [04:29]: "It's called intelligent disobedience."
• Jim Kessler [16:09]: "We have one instructor assigned to four students—a four to one ratio."
• Jim Kessler [67:22]: "Consistency is key with dogs."
• Jim Kessler [71:39]: "It's the people that drive our organization."

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Final Thoughts

Jim Kessler's profound insights into the Seeing Eye's operations shed light on the intricate process of training guide dogs and the unwavering commitment required from both the organization and its volunteers. For listeners inspired by stories of transformation, resilience, and the human-canine bond, this episode offers a compelling glimpse into a life-changing mission.

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Support the Seeing Eye:
To contribute to the Seeing Eye's mission or to learn more about volunteering, visit The Seeing Eye's website.

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Thank you for tuning into Jeff Hopeck’s Interesting Humans Podcast. Stay tuned for more real-life stories that inspire and inform.

Transcript

[Host]

What a great episode we have today. If you go back, folks, to episode 27, we. We had an interesting human on by the name of Chad Foster. I got through Chad's interview and said, is there any chance that you can connect me to the very school that you're talking about? And today I have the director of training for the Seeing Eye in New Jersey. His name is Jim Kessler. And I think what's so, so fascinating here, folks, two things is, is one, you were in the financial world and you're gonna talk about that Wall street and Lehman Brothers, and now you're training dogs. So I love that. I can't wait to dig into that story. But then what does this look like every day? I just can't wait to hear it. It blows my mind, what you do every day to prepare a dog to go out and protect people with lack of sight or sight issues. So first off, thanks for being here.

[Jim Kessler]

My pleasure.

[Host]

Great.

[Jim Kessler]

Thanks for having me.

[Host]

Appreciate it. And let' right in. I want to. I want to understand, how did you. How did you meet Chad? How did that all come down, Chad?

[Jim Kessler]

I've known Chad for many years. He was. When he received his second dog from the Seeing Eye, Sarge, I was involved in that. I actually, I actually trained him with that dog at the. In Morristown, and then they ended up bringing him home to Atlanta and spent a few days at home in Atlanta with him. So I've known Chad for many years.

[Host]

Many years.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

He tells a fascinating story. Story in the book about Sarge. The very first trip he took to a very crowded mall, it was holiday season in, I believe, in Fairfax, Virginia, somewhere, northern Virginia. And they got all the way in through the crowds into a store, and then he prompted Sarge to come back to the car. And from my understanding, the dog can get you close, but the dog took him right to the door. How in the world does that even happen?

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah, that's. That's a good question because. Yeah. Can you. Can you leave a mall and say, hey, Sarge, find the car. You know, find me my car. You know, to say how the dog found was probably a lot of it came down to probably scent, you know, using the. The dog's strongest senses or sense of smell.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

So he may have found it that way. And Chad, you know, he may have. He probably had a general idea where the car is, the vicinity of the car and the active. And then the dog. Dog just probably found it. That's it, you know.

[Host]

Incredible.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

Now. Now your school's in New Jersey, correct?

[Jim Kessler]

Morristown, New Jersey.

[Host]

Okay. But you serve people all over the country.

[Jim Kessler]

North America. We have students in the United States and Canada.

[Host]

Okay.

[Jim Kessler]

North America.

[Host]

Okay.

[Jim Kessler]

And Puerto Rico.

[Host]

And Puerto Rico. And they have to come to you for the training. There's no virtual or anything like that. So let's, I want to go back to the beginning. So they hear about you from their eye doctor or.

[Jim Kessler]

No, they, they pro. They'll do research on their own. And a big resource for us is the orientation mobility specialists. Those are the individuals who teach, teach how to use a weight cane, the training with the weight cane. Because those skills that you learn with the cane are transferable to what you use with. Yeah, using with the dog. Just, you know, how to re. How to, how to line yourself up audibly at a crossing, reading traffic, how to understand, you know, okay, I'm at an, I'm at a lighted intersection. You know, people will say, you know, I still have people to this day who say, I, you know, I thought dogs are colorblind. How do they know when it's safe to cross the street? And it's, it's not the dog making decision, it's. It's the handler making decisions. So if you're at a lighted intersection here of an initial front surge of traffic, that's when you say forward and the dog goes forward into the street. Now, the dog's been trained to what we call, it's traffic. We have a four stage, pretty extensive traffic training program. Program for the dogs.

[Host]

Okay.

[Jim Kessler]

That teaches them, you know, if a car was to say, cut chat, cut chat or cut anybody, any student off when they're crossing sheet. The dog's been trained to check what we call traffic check. And it's similar to like check in hockey. You know, you're stopping your forward momentum, so the dog stops. Now, does the dog have any ability to know that a car can hurt them? No, dog just cognitively does not have the ability to know that. Nor do we want to, nor do we want to train a dog to be fearful of traffic. Because if a dog's fearful of traffic, dog's not going to leave a down curb. So we train the dogs to have a respect for traffic.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

And they have to, they have, they do that. And like I said, we do it through four sessions. It's pretty intense. And it's, you know, that's, it's called intelligent disobedience. That's what, that's what sets guide dogs off from other types of dogs. It's called intelligent disobedience. So if you're at a curb and you say forward into the street and a car is right in front of you. The dog will disobey the command saying, it's not safe, I'm not going forward. So they're intelligently disobeying the command. So that's what sets guide dogs off from your regular, shall we say, pet dog. So they intelligate. What it means intelligently disobey is a command. You come up, you come up to a train platform and say you're disoriented and the drop off is right there, the tracks. And you say forward to the dog. Dog's been trained to go right or left. Intelligently disobey that forward command to go right or left, to take. Take the, take the. Take the handler out of harm's way.

[Host]

So it's like an override, basically. The dog is an override, basically.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah. And we always say, trust your dog, Trust your dog. And that trust, you know, that trust happens over time. But, you know, it's, it's. I've trained, you know, I trained this guy, an individual, he said dogs for multiple years. And he has said to me, he gets to the point in the relationship with his dog where he can pick up that harness and he, he thinks the dog, he feels the dog can read his mind. Because there's so much conveyed between dog and handler through the harness handle. It's kind of like the old adage, when you sit on a horse, they say a horse can size you up. Like you pick up that harness, that dog's nose, that dog knows what's going on because so much is conveyed unbeknownst. Unbeknownst to sometimes the handler, you know.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

I had an old time instructor, he retired and he said to me, you know, when I was training and I was. And you know, as part of the training, we do a three year apprenticeship, but we can speak to that later. But you pick up that harness handle, he's like, you pick up that harness handle. Say you had a bad commute into work or you got an argument with your wife.

[Host]

Wife, yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

He's like, that dog knows it because. Yeah. So just what's conveyed. So does he know I got an argument with my wife? No. And I don't get arguments with my wife. I mean, but no, seriously, he. It's lots conveyed through the handle, you know, so cool. Yeah.

[Host]

All right. I have so many, so many questions about breed and all that other stuff. I want to learn a little bit about you because I think it's very interesting. Wall street walk. Lehman Brothers. How'd you get there? And then what in the world happened there where you said, I'm going to go train dogs?

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah. It's my. I. My father and brother were both. My father was in corporate accounting, and my brother was also in the finance world. You know, he has his mba.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

And I was like, all right. I guess it's just in the blood. I'll just be a business major. So I went to college. I was a business major. I graduated from college.

[Host]

Where'd you go?

[Jim Kessler]

I went to Miami University in Oxford, Ohio.

[Host]

Okay.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah. So went there at a good business program, and I. I started my career in. In finance, like the financial services industry. And I just thought that's what I was supposed to do. I thought it was like, yeah, my dad and my brother did it.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

And at that age, you know, you really don't. You think you know everything and you question. I think you know everything, but you question. You don't really question. So I was in it, and I. You know, I enjoyed it. I'm not gonna lie. I learned a lot. I learned a lot just from my own, you know, in the financial world, like investing and my personal finances. But I was always striving for something more, striving for something that I've always been attracted and interested in teaching. Teaching has always been a thing for me. And this job is. There's a. There's a big. There's a huge teaching component. Not only teaching the dogs, but teaching the students that come to campus, teaching them how to use a dog. So. And that's what drew me. And, you know, I just. I came upon it by. I was in Morristown, New Jersey, going to an appointment, and I saw two instructors working a dog. And I was like, wow, that's a. That's pretty cool. You know, So I went on, and this was, like. Before the Internet was huge.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

So, like, I had to go to, like, the library and, like, look stuff up and read stuff.

[Host]

Imagine that.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah. And I did my research. I wrote a, you know, letter. Letter. Sent a resume, and then next thing I know, it's been 24 years. I started in 2001. 24 years. Yeah. 24 years. Well, I'm in my 24th year, 24 years later. I've been there. So. Yeah.

[Host]

So in the. In the financial world, I just want to ask one question. That if you take out all the rules of investing and, like, everybody's got their own thing, just the fundamental, one biggest overarching way that you look at finances, what's what's one big takeaway?

[Jim Kessler]

The one big takeaway was I learned, I think personally, I learned a lot about myself, who I am as a person. You know, I think. And I don't know if this is the answer to your question, you know, I learned especially from one of my bosses who I had, who was a pretty. He was tough. I learned a lot about myself and it really thickened my skin, if that's what you're asking.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

But I also, like I said, I learned like, like some good basics to investing, and I have friends who are still in the industry who I still keep in touch with.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

And so it gave me a good base knowledge of, again, I don't know all the rules and regulations, but I know good to keep my. Keep myself out of trouble.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

You know, so, yeah.

[Host]

You know, saying, do you do it yourself or do you have somebody do it?

[Jim Kessler]

I do. Do. I do some of my. On myself. But I do ask. I do have like a financial planner that I help with that helps out also.

[Host]

That's cool.

[Jim Kessler]

And my brother's a financial planner too. He. He was. He's changed his career as a financial planner, so he's always a good resource. Yeah.

[Host]

Is he local by you?

[Jim Kessler]

He's local in Jersey.

[Host]

Jersey, yeah. That's awesome. All right, cool. So. So something happened then. Like, you. You were. You were in the financial world.

[Jim Kessler]

Yep.

[Host]

And then was there like a book that you read what actually got you to switch? Because that's the hardest part about it.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah, I. I think it was like, like I said, I was looking for something more, you know, not that the cubicle walls were closing in, but. Yeah, the cubicle walls were starting to close, and I feel like I, you know, it wasn't for me. I just couldn't. I wanted to do more. I wanted to have something a little more. Not that you. You can get rewards out of being in, you know, the financial industry, but for me, my own moral compass.

[Host]

Sure.

[Jim Kessler]

I wanted something a little more. So I left and I resigned from my job at, you know, the Federal Reserve Bank. And then short period. I was still in New York City during 9 11. And that was my last day of work in. In New York City was 9 11. And I had already. I'd already left my job or I've not left. It was. I had resigned from the Fed.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

But I was there. And that was. That was pretty much. That was not the icing on the cake. But. Yeah, the icing on the cake where I was like, all right, I needed I wanted more. Um, and it kind of validate. Not validated. I'm going to say it that way. But my decision, I was like, all right, I, I, I wanted to, to leave that, you know, New York City and start something different.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

So, yeah.

[Host]

And you got to stay right there. Right. Because you're or relatively close. I mean, you didn't have to like, up and go across the country.

[Jim Kessler]

Oh, no, no. I lived in Jersey. Yeah, I lived in Jersey. I stayed in the house, you know, that I live in now. Same house, same area.

[Host]

That's cool.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah. So it's. And yeah, now instead of taking a subway to work, I take my drive.

[Host]

So 10 minute commute probably, right? No, it's a little longer than that.

[Jim Kessler]

New Jersey's, New Jersey's known. New Jersey has some good trap, like, decent amount of traffic. Probably similar to like Atlanta. Yeah.

[Host]

Right.

[Jim Kessler]

It takes me about a half hour, half hour, 40 minutes to get to work. So it's not too bad. But that's, that's my time in the car, you know, it's my time to say, all right, what do I have to, what's going on the day. Kind of, you know, think about things. Yeah. Kind of, kind of organize my thoughts. And then the way home, I kind of not, I kind of, I think, okay, what, I kind of put the day behind me. What, what could I have done better? Yeah, what could I, you know, and so huge.

[Host]

That's awesome.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

So for a short period of time, 2003, 4, 5, 6, I spent some time u. S. Secret service at the white house. And one of my, one of my favorite things was those dog, the dogs. So we had a whole division, a can condition.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I knew a couple guys in there and when they would explain what those dogs would go through for training and then the, the street value of that dog, I want to say it was 200, 000 when they were done with the training.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah. It might be bombs. Yeah.

[Host]

Like it could sniff out everything.

[Jim Kessler]

Not really sure. But we've had a dog. Like, we have dogs. We don't have 100 success rate with all the dogs we breed. You know, I think personally, and I'm biased because I do this for a living, I think out of any job a dog can have, I think this is the most difficult job a dog can have.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

The amount of responsibility that they have unbeknownst to them. So we actually have some dogs. We've had, I don't know how many, but we've had dogs from our program who have Worked in the White House. We call them career changers. Yeah, yeah, career changers. So and we have, we have, you know, police departments will come and some local police departments come and look at dogs. So yeah, not, not all of our dog, not our success rate is good, but like I said, it's not 100%.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

So it's not like how to knock it out of the park 100% every time.

[Host]

Did a dog have to work prior to coming to you or can they be born into your kind of work?

[Jim Kessler]

Well, we do all our own. We have a full time, we have a full time geneticist on staff. We have a breeding facility which is located in Chester, Chester, New Jersey. And we breed pretty much 100% of all our dogs we breed. The reason why we breed is we can, we can control certain things, predictability, like to temperament. We're, you know, and again there's things that are out of our control, but we can control to, you know, temperament being one. So we have, we have a full time geneticist like I stated. And those dogs are, we have a state of the art breeding facility in Chester and it's dogs are there till about seven weeks of age. Seven to eight weeks of age.

[Host]

Wow.

[Jim Kessler]

And then at seven to eight weeks of age, the dog is. We have called puppy raisers, families that will raise these dogs from 8 weeks of age till about 13 to 16 months of age. Age. So they volunteer. This is a volunteer these people. And I say this, if it wasn't for the puppy raisers, the ability for the CEI to carry out its mission would be impossible. I mean we give these dogs to them eight weeks and you know, puppies, I don't know if any you've owned a puppy. It's, it's at the house breaking. It's, it's the, you know, teaching the basic obedience.

[Host]

Right.

[Jim Kessler]

It's socializing the dog so they got a hard job. And then at, you know, 13, 14 months, we, the dog comes back to the seeing eye and that's when we look at the dog to go into training or as a potential breeder. So yeah, the puppy raisers are, are huge. They're huge.

[Host]

So that's. Can't say enough good things about almost like a fostering.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah, you think of it like a foster.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

100.

[Host]

So they go away. So they're bred at facility. Go away from facility and then they're back at facility. Yeah, come back what, at what age? 16?

[Jim Kessler]

Probably 13 to 13 to 16 months.

[Host]

13 to 16 months. Okay, then I want to understand When I. When a. When a client shows up at facility, let's walk through everything. So day one, they land at Newark. Newark.

[Jim Kessler]

Yep.

[Host]

Okay. How do they get. Do you pick them up?

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah, we pick them up. Yeah, we, we. We have actually, we have a volunteer who helps, and we also have instructors who. Apprentices will go and help. We'll pick up the students at the airport.

[Host]

Okay.

[Jim Kessler]

And then. And then we bring it back to campus.

[Host]

Okay, so you're back to campus.

[Jim Kessler]

Day one.

[Host]

You show in there to show up. There's some kind of check in, whatever. What is. What does the first day look like?

[Jim Kessler]

The first.

[Host]

A huge change.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah, huge. The first days get acclimated to the building, learn the, you know, the. The layout of the building, get oriented to the building, and then we do a Juno walk. And a Juno walk is already done prior to them coming into class. But the instructor who is teaching the student, and we have. Our class size is. Our maximum number of students we can bring to campus is 24.

[Host]

Okay.

[Jim Kessler]

So we have, you know, typically around 20, but we, we maximum. We max out at 24. And we have one instructor assigned to four students. So it's a four to one ratio.

[Host]

Okay.

[Jim Kessler]

And then the instructor, like I said, orients into the building, talks to them, and then does a Juno walk. And the Juno walk is where the instructor will take a harness and will mimic a dog. Meaning how fast do you want to walk? What's your pace and what's your pull? Pace and pull are pretty much the. Not the bread and butter, but two of the more important criteria we look at when we go to match an individual. Because the last thing we as an organization want to do is give a dog that's too slow, give a dog that's too fast, a dog that pulls too hard, or a dog that doesn't pull fast enough. So we look at pace and pull. That's. That's pretty much our bread and not bread and butter, but yeah.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

So. And again, there's no right or wrong answer when it comes to this. For somebody who's. It's not like, hey, the faster I walk, they'll be, you know, it's. It's. What's. What's most comfortable to them, the right fit.

[Host]

So let me tie. Let me tie, pace and pull real quick into the puppy razors. When a puppy raiser brings a puppy home to monitor for those couple weeks, do they have specific instructions like, walk him faster, walk slower?

[Jim Kessler]

No, we just let the.

[Host]

Raise them.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah, just raise them. Let them be a dog and Pretty much let them be a dog, you know, let. And let the dog walk. You know, we don't want to. If a dog's pulling, we don't want to, you know. You know, we don't want the dog not to pull. We want the dog to pull. So that's, that's because pulling is guiding. Yeah, the dog's not pulling. A dog's not guiding. And whether it's a light pull or whether it's a hard pull, you know, so we, we don't, we don't prohibit. Hey, you don't let, you know, don't have the dog heel on your side. We don't want that. We want the dog. That's one concept. Because, like I said, pulling is. Pulling is, you know, pulling. His dog has to know, learn the concept. And they'll learn the concept when they come to campus. Yeah, you know, they'll understand, like, because it's not like, it's not like we dogs are filling out applications to do this. You know, it's, you know, it's. It's these dogs to come, and they're like, all right, I just spent 14 months in a wonderful home, you know, loving family, and now I'm back in a kennel. And then they're put into the training. But, you know, and there's a series. They go through a series of tests when they come back to campus, you know, through our veterinarian, we have. We have a health. Canine health center on campus for four veterinarians on staff. And they, they, they do the medical work up on them. But then, you know, it's. If they're deemed to be put into training, the dog's put into training, and they have to learn what it feels like to put a heart, what it means to have a harness on them, you know, because. Never had a harness on them.

[Host]

Right.

[Jim Kessler]

So. Yeah, but that's the beautiful thing about a dog is the dogs are so adaptable. And, you know, dogs are very willing, willing to please their master, you know, and yes, some dogs are more willing than others to do the job, but that's your, that's your job as the instructor is to, to bring out the willingness of a dog. How willing.

[Host]

So, so is there a breed or breeds that are better or, or worse than another?

[Jim Kessler]

Well, no. I, I. The breeds that the Seeing Eye predominantly uses are German shepherds.

[Host]

Okay.

[Jim Kessler]

Labrador retrievers, golden retrievers, and we do a cross breed between the lab and the golden. So we get across. But if you were to see across, like, if I was to bring one Here today, and I had a cross. You'd probably say, hey, that's a lab. Because they look a lot like labs. Sometimes the feathering of the tail ends a little like, a little different, but for the majority parts, they look like Labradors. And we use those breeds because we feel they are the most. The most successful for this line of work. You know, like I said earlier, we have a geneticist. We breed these dogs to do this.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

But, you know, and we German Shepherds from, you know, our founding. We were founded in 1929, you know, German Shepherds. That's the breed that we used, you know, predominantly. Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah. What's the. What's the thought process behind breeding? The lab and the Gold. The lab and the golden. Right?

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

You do that in the golden. What's the thought process there? What does it get?

[Jim Kessler]

I mean, it's just. It's. It's the. The lab is, you know, like, the lab is, you know, you. One of the more popular breeds, but not that. Not that that has anything to do with guiding, but we just feel they're. They're the working qualities, their size, what they are as breeds make them give us the. Give us, as a seeing eye, the most chance of success. Those breeds, as opposed to, you know, people. You've heard of boxers, like, boxers were used in the past. Boxers. We didn't. We didn't breed boxers, but we had. We've had boxers that we've. We've received from outside breeders.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

That, you know, we. We just didn't have a ton of success with them.

[Host]

Sure.

[Jim Kessler]

We've had poodles. We've used poodles. Poodles are highly intelligent and. But we don't. We don't breed our own poodles.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

You know, but we've had. We've used poodles in the past, you know, so. But we. I mean, now we have a. Like I said, a successful and organized breeding breeding program for the Seeing Eye. And it just gives us our best chances of success.

[Host]

Best chance of success ever. Husky ever on there? No, no, no.

[Jim Kessler]

Do you own a husky?

[Host]

I had two. He had two. Can you imagine them being. I'm just curious, the why, though. What about them? Is it their stubbornness? Is it their. What would make them not good?

[Jim Kessler]

You know, I'm not that familiar with the hussies as a breed, you know. You know, so I. I can't comment. Why. And I don't want to talk anything negatively about huskies because, you know, I don't want to get any, you know, you know, say anything bad about the huskies as a breed, but, you know, I can't say definitively what it is for them as them as a breed that we've never entertained. So.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, they're wild. Yeah, they're. Why, just think back to some of the stories. But again.

[Jim Kessler]

But again, too back to that. It's like, yes, these dogs are bred to do this. I'm very fortunate with the dogs I work with and I see every day these dogs are phenomenal, but they're still dogs at the end of the day and they'll revert back to natural instincts, you know. So dogs thrive with consistency. Yeah, that's how dogs thrive, whether it's a pet dog, whether it's a guide dog, they thrive with a Consistency. Consistency from their master. Yeah, so that's, that's, you know, you know, I've done some private dog training on the side, and I would say majority of the time, it's not the dog, it's the person that's. That's the problem.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

You know, and it's. It's just because dogs, Dogs as a breed, they're just. They. They want to please their master.

[Host]

Right.

[Jim Kessler]

And that's just who. That's who are as a breed. But, you know, it's just they thrive in a consistent environment.

[Host]

So you're training the dog, you're training the master as much as you're training them 100%.

[Jim Kessler]

Like I. Dogs are a part of the seeing eye, but the people. The people are. Are what drives our mission.

[Host]

Right.

[Jim Kessler]

You know, we're a people organization. Yes, we have dogs, and yes, dogs are a huge component of it. But it's the people that drives our mission.

[Host]

The people.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah, it's the people.

[Host]

So let's, let's come back to check ins. So they, the. The. So the clients. Client you refer to, we call them students.

[Jim Kessler]

Okay, Students.

[Host]

So the student. The student checks in, gets acquainted. They do the pace and pool.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

What. Walk me through the next.

[Jim Kessler]

All right, so they come in on a Monday. The whole, you know, the whole students from all over North America come. They come to campus, they spend Monday. Monday's just kind of like an orientation get to, you know, get to know type day. Tuesday, they are with their group of, you know, their instructor and four other students. And this is when, you know, we do another Juno walk with them. We actually do two more junior walks on Tuesday with them just to solidify. Because even prior to them coming in, we've already assessed the person in their home environment. Like, we've gone to their home and, you know, saw where they live and got their, you know, Scott, our idea what their pace and pull is. And then even prior to them being, you know, coming into what we say, coming into class, that's when they come to campus. We have an idea what dogs were thinking of. So we're like, okay, Betty, we have Snoopy. Not that we have any dogs named Snoopy. We have Snoopy in mind. We have last seen Glassy, neither, but we have those in mind. Now when the student comes, the instructor will, you know, do a general assessment and they'll walk, they'll see, okay, what's their pace and pull? How do they follow the harness handle? Lateral moves left and right. How do they follow the harness? Yeah, those things. And then they'll say, okay, yeah, I think. I think Snoopy's the best option here. It's not like it's an. It's not like we have an equation, you know, where we can plug into this master equation, come out with the best dog for this person. You know, it's. It's. It's not that. It's not bad. It's. There's a lot of. There's a magic to it, shall we say? There's a feel to it. So, yeah, so Tuesday is Juno walks. You know, other. We do some lecture. We have lectures. We have lectures all throughout the class training. And the class training is 25 days on campus for a new student, 18 days for us. Retrain. Student. Retrain is student that's had a one or two has had a good thing. If they're getting their successor dog, like a second, third, fourth dog.

[Host]

That would be Chad, too.

[Jim Kessler]

Chad too. Exactly.

[Host]

Three or four.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. And then on that Tuesday afternoon is when we have the match meeting. That match meeting happens in the late afternoon on. On Tuesday. And that's when you. You. You look at your supply of dogs and you match them up to the clients that have come that are here on campus.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

And Wednesdays, when fun begins. Shall we say Wednesdays we call dog day, when they're giving their dog. They're giving their dog after breakfast.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

And that's when the relationship. The relationship between dogs.

[Host]

Wow. Let me come back to day one. Yeah. For a couple minutes. So what's the state of mind when somebody arrives? Are they all, oh, excited type of state of mind?

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah, I would say. I mean, it's.

[Host]

It's like, be there.

[Jim Kessler]

Oh, heck, yeah. Yeah. You know, no doubt. I mean, I. I think you're kind of experiencing a Whole range of emotions from excitement to, you know, maybe some trepidation because you don't know what to expect. What dog am I going to get? Yeah, I've never done this before. I don't know what to expect. You know, the retrains, they know they have something to base it off. But a new student, you know, I think, you know, I can only. Just from what I know, I think they're probably going through all the motions that you can. Not all, I mean, you know, but a lot of emotions they're feeling, but.

[Host]

They'Re past, like, they're past the part of like, oh, my gosh, I'm blind.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

They've been blind for some time.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

They're not coming to you the next day.

[Jim Kessler]

No, no, no, no, no, no. You know, like I said, there. No, not at all. They, there's, there's, you know, there's, like you said, an adjustment, but there's also. They have to. They have to learn their orientation mobility. And orientation mobility is. That is, you know, using a white cane to navigate. Those are. That's, that's a, that's a prerequisite for.

[Host]

You know, they're like long.

[Jim Kessler]

Right. Yeah. And it's all, it's all depends on, you know, your height and, and, you know, but talking about a cane, not to get off the topic, cane and dogs, there's a two mean way to navigate it if, if you're blind or, you know, those are the two ways you can use a cane or can use a dog.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

And there's a difference. Cane is. When you think about if you're using a cane, it's, it's. We like, it's an obstacle finder. So if you're walking down the street and there's a garbage can in the middle of the sidewalk, like, oh, there's you, you, you know, you'll encounter that with your cane and then you just. You'll navigate around the garbage can for. With, you know, using your cane. Whereas a dog. Dog brings you around, the dog takes you around it. You don't even know you're going around. Oh, I went around something. I don't know what it was. So cane's like an op. We call like an obstacle finder. Dog is an obstacle avoider. But waiter. Yeah, but you get a lot of tactile information through a cane. Tactile information that you don't get with a dog.

[Host]

Like, you bump into something, you stop.

[Jim Kessler]

And there's, you know, we, I, we. I trained well, he was part of a class I was in years ago where he was in a very adept cane traveler and he wanted to. He came for his first dog and that about after a week or so he said, you know, I. I prefer the tactile information I feel through my can as opposed to a dog. So. Yeah.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah. So he. Yeah, he decided it wasn't for him.

[Host]

I could see that.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

Something that.

[Jim Kessler]

This personal preference.

[Host]

Yeah, personal reference is something to show. Doing these episodes has helped me with. Is shining light on these topics that I found myself personally, like blindness. I would look at it, hear it, throw it over in corner and just hope that I. That's not me. And that's how I. I've gone through my life is like. I had a brain surgeon on and all these interesting survivors and it's just like, it's. This has become so fascinating for me. I know you do it every day, but gosh, I have like, like a million more questions.

[Jim Kessler]

So people, I mean people, they lead normal lives. You know, we. I. I've trained a gentleman who's a judge, trained a woman who's an oceanographer, and I've trained, you know, I've trained professors, but I've trained just the, you know, your regular person who uses the dog to. Not a regular person, but somebody just who uses a dog to go on an exercise walk, to go pick their daughter up at the school bus. You know, those types of things. So it's. It's. Yeah, we have a. We've had. Well, of our. Our graduate base. You know, we've. We've. For. Since inception or since we were founded. Over 18,000 partnerships. Since 1920. Since 1929.

[Host]

Oh my goodness.

[Jim Kessler]

Over 18, 000 partnerships. And right now we have approximately. I think it's 1800 active grads within North America. So all these people are leaving normal lives.

[Host]

1800 active. And a partnership is when you pair a dog with a person. Is there ever. Is there ever like a time when there's not a horror story or like a close call or like, tell like, give me some stories of what happens on campus. Oh, dog ever like attacked or bad or.

[Jim Kessler]

Well, I mean, I mean, there's always that possibility with, you know, the pet dog, but it doesn't happen with any regularity. But you know, we. We have. And that's just real life. You know, if somebody was to encounter a dog, I mean, they have their instructor with them coaching them through and teaching them how to handle that situation. But that's real life. You know, you're going to encounter. You're Going to encounter people with dogs and, you know, back to my thing, you know, that's distraction. We call distraction in a dog. You know, our hopes, as, you know, instructors are to control the. Control the distraction. If the distraction or the instinct is just too great in a dog, then the dog will be dropped from the program. So our hopes are to control the instinct in the dog. You're never going to take that. You're never going to get that out of the dog. That's just an impossibility.

[Host]

Does one in a hundred get dropped? Has one ever got dropped? Like, what are the numbers?

[Jim Kessler]

Our success rate is about. It's close to 70%. So close to 70. 70%, which is, which is a good, good point for anything.

[Host]

It's good for anything. All right. In Chad's book, he, he talked about the. It's so important for the dog to be. I think the word was desensitized that when you take a dog to a steakhouse. And I never thought.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

Thought about this till he, Till he brought it up in the book, is that dog is going to sit there and smell incredible smells. Right. For the hour, two hours, three hours. However long you're there. Walk me through those steps that you take to desensitize a dog. It blows me away.

[Jim Kessler]

Well, I desensitize. I don't necessarily know if, if you want to call it desensitizing. The fact that, as we all know, I mean, who own a dog, their stronger senses or sense of smell.

[Host]

Okay.

[Jim Kessler]

You know, okay, we, we can't turn that off in a dog. It's not like we can automatically turn the sense of smell off.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Jim Kessler]

You know, it's not like, it's not like we're, you know, we, we try and forbid them from using the sense of smell. But the, but the, the sense is so strong that it's, it's impossible.

[Host]

Impossible. Okay.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah. So the dog will, I mean, the dog will, I mean, he'll smell, but, you know, it's not like, it's not like he's, you know, you know, sniffing and walking over to a table to go, you know, sniff a snake, you know, and again, it's the handler's control. Yeah. He's going to get a lot of information through his nose and pick that up. But you, that's one thing. The sense of smell is just, you know, I don't know the statistic. But the number of the fact that what I'll, I'll do it. A kind of a, A, an example I saw was a. He was in the military. He trained dogs like in the military. And he described the sense of smell in a dog as, you know, a human walks into a kitchen and says, oh, you're making stew. This gentleman says, a dog walks into the same kitchen and says, potatoes, carrots, you know, beef, you know, like, that's, that's the, that's the, that's what we're talking about. That's what the dog smells, you know. Yeah. So, yeah, just a lot of information and I always wonder like how it almost be. I can't imagine the sense that. How strong it is because it's, it's.

[Host]

Pretty remarkable and the distance of it.

[Jim Kessler]

Oh yeah, it's.

[Host]

It is remarkable.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

That's so cool. All right, I'm going to, I'm going to come back to Chad's book again because he told the funniest story. The funniest story and the book, it was so well written. I was able to like be there for the apartment story that he talked about. When Chad. I think it was the first day he brought. It would be Sarge when he brought Sarge home and Chad went to take a shower and tied the, tied Sarge to the oven door. The £30. Oven door.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

Didn't realize what is it? What was like, what's the outcome of that? What did he do wrong? What should he have done?

[Jim Kessler]

What one thing he did wrong was he attached the dog to the oven door. That's one thing. But you know, you want to. Especially early when you get home with the dog in the infancy stages of the relationship, you want. You have to set up Barry Barrack. You know, you have to set up rules and regulations. So he should have had. Not he should have, but he should have restricted the dog's freedom, which he did. But on an oven door. I don't necessarily know if that was the wisest choice. You know, you can use a, you can use a crate. Right. You can use a, like a tie down where the dog's, you know, restricted in some capacity. So that was probably. That was a mistake and it didn't work.

[Host]

Right. Which is the funny part of the story. He gets out of the shower and Sarge pulled the. Ripped the door off and was laying out front door. The apartment still attached to the door. I mean, it's just.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah. I didn't know if that was like. I don't know if that was Sarge. Was that his dog or was that. Because I know he had, he had, he had a previous dog from another school in. In.

[Host]

Was Sarge the First one, the.

[Jim Kessler]

He was the second one from the Seeing Eye, but he's had dogs from. He had dogs from another school, so it might have been that. I don't.

[Host]

He didn't mention the schools in the book.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

The story is just so incredible. So what would be the right thing to do there in that scenario?

[Jim Kessler]

Put the. You want to fix a dog to something that's, you know, whether it's a. You put a dog in a crate, you know, and people, you know, crates are. Crates are not a form of punishment for a dog. You know, I don't want people to think, like they're a form of punishment. They're not to be construed like that. Dogs actually gravitate toward crates.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

And it's, you know, it's. It comes from, you know, dogs are descendants of wolves. Wolves, you know, feel security and safe in their den. You know, dogs. Dogs have that same sort of security, and it's a place of safety, refuge for the dog. So you could put the dog in there, or you could just tie the dog down where you restrict his freedom, where he's not running around. Because dogs are opportunistic. Any opportunity a dog will get, they will take.

[Host]

Yeah. You know, take it.

[Jim Kessler]

They will take it. And that's just. But that's. That's. That's the beauty of a dog, too, to me.

[Host]

Yeah, it's awesome. I love it. All right, let's. Let's talk a little bit about. So they're in Monday, they arrive Tuesday, Wednesday. What's now the state of mind of somebody, they got their dog. Oh, is it like. Yeah, just incredible to see?

[Jim Kessler]

It's incredible, you know. Yeah, it's great. And it's even, you know, to watch over the. You know, whether it's 18 days or 25 days, to watch the relationship between dog and handler, dog and student grow. You know, I've been doing this, like I said, 24 years. 24 years now, and it never gets old. You know, it's. It's good stuff. It's great stuff. You know, seeing that relationship. Yeah. Is it perfect after the. The month they spend on camps? No, it's not perfect. But you. What I like to say, you built. You know, you have the foundation, and then you grow from there. And, you know, it's. It's. You know, we call class when they come and they're on campus for the month. We have. Every month of the year, we have a class come to campus, 20 students from all over North America. And, you know, in that month, like, I said we lay the groundwork. But then, you know, it's, it's the relationship takes about six months to a year, we say, to solidify completely.

[Host]

Oh, interesting.

[Jim Kessler]

The one thing that distinguishes the Seeing Eye from other programs in the United States is our graduates have full ownership of the dog. So when they leave the Seeing Eye, they have full ownership. So we as an organization do not have any right to take the dog from them. What we do is once they have ownership, if. How it works is if you're having a problem with your dog, whether it's, you know, behavioral or training wise, you call the seeing high end, you know, one of our, myself, training manager, one of us will talk to you over the phone. Yeah, okay. Snoopy's doing this and then we try and fix it over the phone. You know, okay, try this, try this, try this. And they call me back with an update. They call back with an update. If we can't fix, if we can't fix that problem, then we will send an instructor to their home and home area to try to try to fix the problem. But we try and make it. We make every attempt on the phone first, but then we go to their home environment. And again, that's initiated by them. We don't mandate, okay, it's time for your 6 month checkup, time for your yearly checkup. That's we, we have some graduates we don't hear from eight to 10 years. Yeah, we won't hear anything. They're out and they're doing a thing. And then, you know, that's the thing. At the end of their relationship with their, their guide, they have, they can, they can, you know, keep the dog. If they're, if they, if they can keep it as a pet, they can adopt it to a friend or family member. So it's their dog. Yeah, it's there at all.

[Host]

Yeah, it was. I, I cried when in that part of the book, when Chad took the dog, Sarge, and that dropped him off after all the years working with him and gave him to the farmer down the road.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah, it was. Yeah.

[Host]

You just think how tight that, that bond is. Way more than a family pet, in my opinion.

[Jim Kessler]

It's a thousand percent.

[Host]

Because you're with them every second of the day.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah. They're protected by the ada, the American Disabilities act there. So this dog, a guide dog, is allowed to go into a restaurant, go on a plane, go and go anywhere. They're protected by the law. Yeah. And that's sometimes challenge. That's sometimes, that is challenging at times because People are uneducated about the law, and they don't understand this.

[Host]

Some countries he mentioned in the book don't understand or they don't have. Culturally, he mentioned. I'm not talking about the country, but they didn't, they weren't accepting having the dog come and stay at the hotel.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah, that's tough. It is tough.

[Host]

Geez.

[Jim Kessler]

Tough. It's just, it's. And it, you know, and we're making inroads as an organization to try and, you know, from, from an access and advocacy standpoint, trying to make inroads. Especially like the denials, like an Uber or Lyft. The denials that, you know, Uber or Lyft pulls up, sees somebody with a, you know, sees a student with a dog or any guide, and they leave, they pull away because I, I don't want a dog in my. I don't want a dog in my car.

[Host]

What do you do? What's the. Is there. Does the law take.

[Jim Kessler]

Well, that's what we're trying to. That's what we're trying to, you know, that's what we're trying to work on. And we have, you know, we're trying to make, like I said, inroads in there. But it's, it's, it's. It's a point of frustration. String point, you know, and it's. Yeah, so. Yeah, but we're trying to. Trying to, to. To make that better, shall we say, or easier.

[Host]

Yeah. So what are some other areas that.

[Jim Kessler]

Like, even, like, even just going into a restaurant, like, you say, no, you're not bringing that dog in there. Yes, I, I can bring that dog in. And then, because, like I said, you're protected by the American Disability section. And then getting on a plane, I mean, there are things that people have to do now on a plane that, like students or graduates who have to do on a plane, you know, fill out a. Do Department of Transportation form. Fill out. And it's, it's hoops that they have to jump through that. That aren't necessary. You know, Are not necessary.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

So. But, you know, the, the service dog industry, there's been a transformation the service dog industry over the many, many, not many years, but years. There's been a transformation.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

You know, people. People saying it's a service dog, you know, like.

[Host]

Right.

[Jim Kessler]

What's not? And it's not. And that just that. That's. That that makes diff. Provides difficulty at times for us. But, you know, our graduates, you know, hats off to them.

[Host]

Right.

[Jim Kessler]

You know, that they're they're. They get out there and they advocate for themselves.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

And so.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

Which is good. And we, we as an organization advocate for them also. So. And help out any way we can.

[Host]

Absolutely. So hopefully this episode gets out and helps. Helps to advocate. So I'm going to come back to Chad's book because Chad's truly the first person that I got to ask tons of questions about being blind. So there's another interesting part in his book where he talks and I don't understand it. I'm gonna ask. Ask you why is it not good for people to pet these dogs?

[Jim Kessler]

Because it's, it distracts the dog. It's is a distraction. If you had a. Dogs are social animals. That's just who they are. They, they. You're coming back to with wolves. They're pack. They. They operate in packs. That's. They're not like cats. Nothing negative about cats. I admire their independence, but it, it stays there for me with cats. But dogs are social animals. So if, if you were to go up and you were to pet a guide dog, you're distracting the guy dog. Guide dog's focus is not on the task at hand, meaning guiding this individual. So the dog's like, okay, I'm going to say somebody's going to come and pet me. So not that every dog, but some dogs are like, oh, I'm going to go visit this person. I'm going to go visit this person. So the social. Don't like the social side. So we want. That's why we, we don't want dogs. Take off the harness. Dog can be a dog. Put the harness on. It's all business.

[Host]

All business.

[Jim Kessler]

It's all business. It's. You want to say it's their uniform. Yeah, it's kind of like their uniform.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

So.

[Host]

Oh, that's cool.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah, I like that.

[Host]

The uniform. I could see how your job. And now I can totally feel why a career change.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

Like, I could. I mean, I could feel your passion through this interview. So I could see how the whole thing's just incredibly rewarding.

[Jim Kessler]

A thousand percent.

[Host]

What in it do you love absolutely the most in what you do? Like, is it to me, as you explain in this. I could see myself the minute the bond takes place would, like trump all of it.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

Like, do you have a one thing within the job?

[Jim Kessler]

That's part of it, but it's really the people, the people I work with every day, not only like the graduates, but it's the, the other employees.

[Host]

Okay. So more than the students, though, no, even both.

[Jim Kessler]

But I'm saying, yes, we have a. We have people, over 180 employees, and we are, you know, people are all there for the same mission, you know, instruction and training. Yeah, we're. We're providing the dog. Yeah, we're training you with the dog. But there's donor public relations, finance.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

Facilities, the buildings, you know, the facilities who keep the, the facilities roping. Sure. All the departments, the veterinarian staff, they're all here for the same thing.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

For the student. And that's to me. But yes, when you, when you see, when you train an individual, a student with a dog, and seeing that, the culmination of. After that, you know, 18 or 25 days of hard work and, and seeing them get on, you know, saying the goodbyes on the plane and seeing them go, wow. Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's it. And to me, this is. Yeah, it's a job and it has good days and it has bad days, but I, I'm never like, I, I like, I love going to work. I love going to work, you know. Yeah, it's. There's challenges and, you know, my job now has an administrative component to it, but I still get out and work dogs. I still go out and, you know, train students here and there when I can.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

You know, but, you know, it's just. Yeah, I, I can't say enough good things about seeing eyes.

[Host]

So cool. And I would think that all 180 people working there want to work there. It's not like a career. Like, I graduated school. I think I'll go work at an I. Right.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

You probably have done something else in life, have found this as to become a passion and said, I want to come in here.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah. Said, yeah, some people, I mean, yeah, so, yeah, I think it depends, but I think, yeah, a lot of people have some real life experience and other people just get here by, you know, your journey in life, you know, just kind of get you here, you know, that's how, that's how it got me here. I just.

[Host]

So cool.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah. So I love it. Yeah.

[Host]

What was the time? I know you referenced, like, people will call. A student will call. Hey, I've had my dog for a year, but he's doing this. You try to diagnose it over the phone. What's the story when you had to go travel?

[Jim Kessler]

It could be. It could be. I guess the one that really comes into mind is traffic. Traffic of dog. I feel my dog is getting close in traffic. And what I mean, by close is cars are getting close. There's. That's something we take very seriously.

[Host]

Wow.

[Jim Kessler]

You know, because, you know, sometimes you can, you can as, as a, as, as a handler, you can go months to a year without ever getting a traffic check. It's not like something you can reinforce, like saying. What I mean by reinforce is say, you know, you're walking down the street and you bump into, I don't know, you bump into a pole or something. You, as a handler can go back and tell the show, the dog, hey, this is wrong. Repeat it until the dog is successful with something. If a dog doesn't check in traffic, it's not like, as a handler, you can say, all right, I want. I'm going to have my neighbor come over and drive at me to see that's. You can't do that. So sometimes a dog will go a period of time without getting a traffic check. Other things are, you know, other things on that list are, you know, pace. Pace might be a little too slow. Pace might be a little too fast. Distraction.

[Host]

Is that so on pace real quick. Is that like. Can pace change if somebody gets more out of shape and they can't keep up with their dog? Is that an example?

[Jim Kessler]

I mean, it could. Or the dog just slows up. As the dogs get older, they typically slow up. They don't. The other way. They don't. They don't. You know, but sometimes, yeah, we have where the dog slows down, so we try again. This is a huge investment for us. 70, $75,000. So we want to do everything we can do to see if we can fix the problem in the field. Because if we can fix the problem in the field and prolong the, you know, the relationship, that's. That's, that's just benefits the organization and benefits the. The handler.

[Host]

Right.

[Jim Kessler]

Because these people, these individuals, you know, who come to campus, they're. They're coming to the Seeing Eye for a month. So, you know, people have jobs, people have lives. So, you know, so it's, There's. There's a lot to it. And, you know, before I got into this work, I had no idea what was involved. You know, I remember my, I was, I was on the subway in New York City and I saw a gentleman get on a train. And I, I don't know if it was a Seeing Eye dog, but it was a guide dog. And I saw a dog get on. Dog get on the train. And, you know, if he, he gets a seat and he sits down, I was like, wow, that That's. That's pretty cool. Not at that point in my life did I ever know what goes into matching somebody with a dog or how much hard work and what's involved in the whole process. You know, I'm like, okay, you know, like, you have a. You know, you have someone who's blind, you have a dog, you match them. You know, you gotta look at. Pace and pull. You gotta look at their environment. You know, we have people who work in New York City, work in Philadelphia, work in Chicago, but we have people in more rural areas of the country. So some dogs. Every dog in training goes into New York City and gets exposed to New York City, but not every dog has to work in New York City. Right. To be like, elf. If a dog doesn't do well in New York City, it's not like, all right, sorry, you know, he's. He's disqualified. He's out. No, he's just. He's, you know, We. Rejected from the program. Like, you know, I. That's. Reject is such a strong word. I just, like, I would say career change, maybe. So. So it's. It's.

[Host]

But for the dog.

[Jim Kessler]

But, you know, so you take that into mind. Keep that in mind when matching. And like I said earlier, it's.

[Host]

It's.

[Jim Kessler]

It's. There's. There is. There is a magic to it.

[Host]

There isn't that, like. It's more of an art.

[Jim Kessler]

There is an art.

[Host]

Science.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah, yeah. There. I mean, there's some. You know, there was something, but it's more of a. It's more of an art. There's a feel to it, you know.

[Host]

Oh, I love it.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

All right, so the. The list. I cut you off there, but it was a traffic pace. What are some other things that people call in?

[Jim Kessler]

Like. Like distraction. Like instinctual distraction. Like, my dog's very distracted on other dogs. My dog is, you know, game distraction. Whether it's birds, squirrels, whatever. It's distracting other squirrels.

[Host]

That's the husky answer I think, that we were looking for.

[Jim Kessler]

Overall, you know, just a lack of focus. Lack of focus. And so, you know, and, you know, we are the training methodology. Our principles are what our school is founded upon the same principles. We use what's called the affection correction principle. Dog does something right. A dog is praised. Whether it's verbal, whether it's a little pat, little. A little touch, a little tickle.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

You know, and correction. If dog does something wrong, a dog is corrected. Whether it's a verbal reprimand.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

Or whether it's a leash Correction, you know, and you know, there's, there's, you know, it seems like industry wide a lot. You know, some schools and you know their philosophy, they're using, using a more positive approach to things. A lot of food based training and that's, that's, you know, that's what they, they feel is most successful in what suits their needs. Which is fine. But we at the Seeing Eye, we are, we're, our training methodologies are, are on what we, we were founded upon.

[Host]

Right.

[Jim Kessler]

You know, the, like the verbal reprimand that we use is fui. It's pfui. It's a sharp German word of disapproval. So fui. We feel it gets the dog's attention a little better than no before you. And the thing, if you're a, if you're a, a dog owner, like if you have a pet dog or even if you have a guide, I always tell dogs are very keen to the inflection of a human's voice. Very keen. Like you can, you can tell your dog no or you can say no. You know, and I'm not yelling, I'm just what I like to say turning up the firmness, being a little firmer with the dog. You know, dogs are very keen on inflection of the human's voice. You know, like, you can say praise. You could be like good boy, or you can be like good boy. You know, and dogs are like, oh yeah, you know dogs. I mean at the end of the day dogs, they really want to, they want to please you. You know, they really want to do, do right by you. And you know, and you just, like I said earlier, you just gotta, you gotta stay consistent.

[Host]

Was the FUI an acronym for something?

[Jim Kessler]

No, it's a sharp German word of disapproval.

[Host]

It's German instead of saying no, it's.

[Jim Kessler]

Free and it's, that's from where it founded. Oh yeah, back in 1929. You use, we still use it today.

[Host]

Oh my goodness.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

That's so cool. What other, what other kind of words? I mean, what do you say for like, good boy?

[Jim Kessler]

Just praise. Like, and you can kind of, you can, you can find what works best for your dog. Like attaboy, good boy. Like those types of things. You know, dog doesn't know what you're saying. You know, not really, you know, but you know, it's, yeah, their, their vocabulary isn't isn't that extensive, but again, it's just, you know, just genuine heartfelt praise and play. Like playing with a dog. Like when, I mean, play is when you're at home and you want to develop a relationship or keep with a relationship, it's just playing with the dog, like getting down on the ground, playing with them, wrestling with them. That's how you develop a relationship. Dog, you know, other words, you know, forward, left, right. We also use a command called hup up. It's hup Dash up. It's hup up. It means speed up or continue on. We don't have a command for stop. We just, you know, if you, if you had to stop, you would just stop your forward momentum. So just, yeah, just stop. Just plant your feet. Just plant your feet and the dog stops. You know, dogs have dogs brains. Think or dogs are dogs like continual motion. Like dogs that's just, that's just from their instinct. They like continual motion. So all you, all you do, all you do that is just stop, plant your feet, and reset. You know, there's. We do. I can't say we don't. We. We do use some clicker training. All of our dogs are clicker savvy.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

And clicker. I don't know if you're familiar with clicker, but clicker is. It's, it's operant. It's operant conditioning. And it's, you know, using click sound. And with. When that dog hears that sound, the dog associates that with a food reward. So we do use, we do use that for certain things like targeting. Like if you wanted to target a. And I'm getting into the weeds here, but if you wanted to target a, a bus stop or a garbage can, you could, you could use, you know, you could use the clicker to help target a certain destination. So. And that's the nice thing about a dog. Dogs are destination oriented. They like to go to destination.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

That's just how. Again, that's how dogs think they did.

[Host]

Yes. Like, here's where we're going.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah. And a dog. Like, if you go especially, like, if, like when I'm working a dog and I'm training the dog, especially back when I'm training dog, like, if I went to this coffee shop once or twice, if I walk by that cop coffee shop, like a week later, that dog's gonna be like, it'll pause and be like, hey, do you want to get another cup of coffee? You know, that's just, you know, it's just, that's just how dogs are. You know, I think cool. I think personally, I think we as humans do not give dogs enough credit. You know, they're very intuitive animals. A retired instructor who had Big influence in my career. He, he summed it up as an organic sense. Like the dogs just can sense so much from you. And I mean dogs can have a whole host, all host of jobs out there and, but it's, yeah, it's, I, I very happy to, like I said to, to have, be a part of this organization and very spoiled with the dogs I work with every day. Yeah.

[Host]

So that's so cool. The, like the campus itself.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah. 60 acres.

[Host]

Okay, 60 acres. 24 people at a time. Yep. So 24 there each month, obviously, the workers, instructors and stuff like that. What, what does a day look like?

[Jim Kessler]

A day? Okay. Yeah. So I'll give you a quick version of a day in the life of a student. Wake up at 5:30.

[Host]

Okay.

[Jim Kessler]

They take their dog out to what we call park time. Go out and park, meaning relieve them. Relieve the dog. Dogs come back in. They feed the dogs breakfast. They get themselves ready. Breakfast starts. Breakfast is at 7:00. So we have a dining room right on campus. So they have the, the, the, the dormitory wing that is on one side and the dining room is on the other side of the building. And it's like sort of set up like a letter H, where the dormitories are here, dining rooms here, and there's a thoroughfare here, if you want to call it, or straight hallway where offices and stuff. They get to work the dog down the hall.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

So they come at 7:00 in the morning. Breakfast is from 7 to 7:45. 7:45, you'll do. The morning is comprised of one trip in Morristown. And trips are, you know, from the early, the, the infancy stages of training. They do, we have three routes, two routes that they solo by themselves. So they'll do, they'll do these routes and that's for the first week and a half of training. But, and I'm digressing, but so there's a morning trip in the morning.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

And then you come back from your, your morning or your morning trip. And then you give the, you give the dog some water. Then you give them another opportunity to park. And then there could either be a lecture, there could be obedience you're doing with the dog. There could be some stuff your instructor wants to work with you on.

[Host]

Okay.

[Jim Kessler]

Lunch is at noon. So again, they'll work down from their, their room to the, to the dining room.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

Lunch is from 12 to 1 1:00. They do an afternoon trip and there's like an early, there's an early morning trip, a later morning trip. An early afternoon trip, later afternoon trip. So they do a trip again in the app in the afternoon. They come back from the trip in the afternoon. They'll feed the dogs at 4:30. Feed the dogs, water the dogs, take the dogs out, give them an opportunity to relieve themselves. 5:15 is dinner. 5:15 to about 6:6 is dinner. And then in the evening time we typically have another lecture. Lecture to go over. And lectures can be a host of topics. They could be like a traffic lecture. They could be control, like controlling it. Like, like controlling a dog. Like, like just, you know, fears, like we talk about dogs fears. How to, how to, how to. What you do as a handler if your dog ever becomes fearful in a situation. Dog food. We have a veterinary, our veterinarian, our director of canine medicine. He'll come down and he'll do a lecture on veterinary things that are important. And yeah, so we have a lecture and then 8 o'clock they take, they water the dogs again and they take the dogs out for one another park time. And then they, then it slights out.

[Host]

Yeah. So tweak this.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

Okay. I'm, I want to get a good understanding of challenges. There you go. That's my one hour. It's a one hour screen saver. It's such an appropriate picture though. What, what are like, okay, that's a day. Sounds awesome. What are challenges when they, when somebody first gets their dog? Like what are some of the most common challenges? They have mistakes they make that.

[Jim Kessler]

Well, I, I think one of the, one of the challenges you see is the attachment of the dog to the instructor. So the, the instructor, so the instructor trains the dogs for four months.

[Host]

Okay.

[Jim Kessler]

And then in the fifth month is when they train one of the students with a dog. So say the dog that they spent four months with, they are putting, they're going to be training that dog with one of their students. There's a relationship between the initial, well, the relationship between the dog and the instructor that can not be troublesome. But the dog's attached to the handler and then all of a sudden we're saying hey, sorry, all bets off. You know, I don't, you know, not that they don't interact, but they limit the interaction that they have with the dogs. The dog's like, well, what the heck's going on? So some mates, you know, so that's, that's an adjustment. Just the overall adjustment for students. Just the adjustment with the new dog if they're getting a successor dog, you know, or with a new student using a dog for the first time, you know, just. Just learning the basics like this, you know, guide. Guide work. It comes down to basics. Proper arm position, proper body position, you know, handle, you know, harnessing, you know, harness, you know, position right in your hand held, right leash in the right position. All the basics. That's what you know, I guess. Not only with this line of work, but the basics. You know, things break down when the basics start breaking down.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

You know, so.

[Host]

Makes sense. Yeah. So I want to tie that part of the journey into the back to the puppy razors, all the way back to the beginning. What. What would happen if a dog saw the puppy razor? They would remember them like a year ago.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

Like, does. Does that ever happen?

[Jim Kessler]

Well, we have how it's set up the. So the puppy will come back. Well, dog will come back at, you know, 14 months, and then it'll be trained. And then as part of the process, the family that's raised the dog comes in for their. If the dog makes it. And this is in the fourth month of training the dog. The family comes in for a town walk. And what a town walk is, they get to observe the dog and the instructor from afar. Like, they're not, like, they're. They're. They're shat. They're walking behind about, who knows, 20ft or so, watching the dog work.

[Host]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

So they get to see the dog there. They don't get to interact with the dog. Like, when they give the dog back, they. There's. There's no more interaction with the dog. So the dog. The dog, they'll see it there. And that's just, like, icing on, you know, it's just like all my hard work. You know, it's. It's. It's there and a lot. I mean, we have families that have raised, you know, through, like, grandparents, parents, you know, through the whole, you know, 60 plus dogs. Like, that's how many. And they do it. And it's such a selfless act. It's like a self. It's a very. It's such a selfless act. And they do it because they know why they're doing it. And, you know, my family, we raised one dog, and it was. Yeah, it was a great experience. My. My daughters, My two oldest daughters wanted to do it. They were younger.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

That time. And they raised a dog. So I understand the hard work that goes into it. And I still have remnants of, you know, still have memories of. Of the dog we raised. You know, a photo. Chewed leg of the dining room table. Chewed molding, you Know, but you know, I'm joking, of course. But you're dealing with. It's a tough time. And you know, they welcome these dogs in. And then at 14 months and a lot of people, what, what some razors will do is they, they like the dogs getting toward that time where they go back, they'll get another puppy. So there's a little like, like layover if you want to call it or whatever the term. The term is. So the. They say, okay, well he. This pup, this do. But I got this one to kind of fill the, Fill the void, you know. Yeah.

[Host]

That's awesome.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

So you have to be like hyper.

[Jim Kessler]

Local to Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware. We have clubs. I can't remember how many clubs off the top of my head, but we have clubs throughout there. And how that works is each club is, you know, geographically located and we have what's called an area coordinator. A coordinator who goes to these club meetings is in their direct contact. Hey, my puppy's doing this. And they, they, they can give advice to them. So we have area coordinators in the puppy. Puppy development department. And I'm going to, I'm gonna put a little plug in here. We are. And it's not just the seeing eye. It's. It's industry wide is there's been a shortage of puppy raisers, meaning people aren't raising puppies. And this is ever since COVID But you know, they're not raising. We're having. Now we're having difficulty, but we get all puppies placed. But it's been a challenging. There's been a whole sort of a, a change in the industry. But we're still, I mean again, hats off to the puppy development department or at the seeing. I mean they, they work hard and they get these puppies placed. But you know, it's been, It's. It's. It's been tough and we're using all resources we can to, you know, attract. Sure do it. And like part of the, you know, people like will say, oh, a puppy, I'll do it. And then they, they realize, wow, like a weaker tone. There's like, wow, this is a lot of work.

[Host]

A lot of work.

[Jim Kessler]

So part of our criteria is they, they. The family who's interested, they. They will sort of babysit a dog or take a puppy for a little period of time just to get a, like somebody. A puppy who may be in. Who's with another family. They, they. They could babysit. Not babysit, but get a, get a flavor of what goes on raising a dog. Because it's a lot of work. And like I said, the, the, they, they do the housebreaking, they do the obedience that with them, they socialize and they take them to events. Like a lot of these clubs are tight knit. They go to like events. They go to New York City, they go to Washington D.C. they go, they do a bunch of stuff. So it's, it's a good. And it's great for the dogs. It's great for the dogs.

[Host]

Sure. So that it is.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

Incredible. Wow. What a, what an incredible look behind this. Not behind the scenes but like sort of under the hood.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

As to what goes on. How, how can somebody support your mission? The mission.

[Jim Kessler]

I mean we have a, we have again, you know, we are a non profit organization. We rely on no funding from the federal government or the state.

[Host]

So by design. Do you want it that way?

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah. Is it better that way? It's better that way, yeah. And we'll leave it there. But you know, you know, donate, I mean donations, I've, you know, that's huge. We even have a volunteer, you know, we have a network. I think it's 100. Well, with the puppy raisers, it's probably over, it's probably over 600 volunteers like within the organization. Yeah, volunteers. But a good percentage of those are the puppy raisers. Yeah, but we have, we have volunteers who, you know, come and help out in any way they can. Yeah, you know, so it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a good story. It's a great talk.

[Host]

So there's needs at the facility as well for volunteers?

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah, we have volunteer opportunities there. Yeah, yeah, we definitely have volunteer special.

[Host]

Short time, short term, long term.

[Jim Kessler]

It's a little bit of both. You know, we have volunteers have been around for, for, you know, long time helping out and we have, we have some, you know, younger, newer people, you know, helping out, volunteer in any way they can.

[Host]

So, so, so cool. How big is the industry roughly? Are there 20 seeing eye dogs? Are there five? Like other people that are schools?

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah, schools. Like I said, Seeing Eye is, we're the only school that can call our dogs Seeing Eye Dogs. Like it's like we have a trademark. So it's like Xerox and Kleenex. You know, we're, we're the only school. There's third. 13 schools, I believe in the United States, 98 schools worldwide. So there's schools throughout, throughout the entire world.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

So yeah.

[Host]

Fascinating.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

All right, let's, let's, let's talk a little bit and then we'll wrap up about just some advice for the, the person out there struggling with. With a dog at home. The normal stuff like my dog pulls my dog. You know, what are some tips you're. You operate at such a high level.

[Jim Kessler]

So you can help my tips with.

[Host]

This kind of stuff just at the.

[Jim Kessler]

End of it all dogs want to please their master.

[Host]

Every breed.

[Jim Kessler]

You know, some breeds more than ever in some dogs. But consistency, consistency is key with, with dogs. Dogs thrive with a consistent environment. You know, so if you do one thing, if you like for instance, if you're, if you own a pet dog and you're like, I'll let the dog on. On the couch one day and then the next day you sell, you yell at the dog to get off the couch. And the dogs, you know, lemon sized brain.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

They don't, you know, they're like, what here you told me was great yesterday. You're cuddling with me on the couch, now you're yelling me to get off the couch.

[Host]

You.

[Jim Kessler]

So it sends mixed signals to the dog. Yeah.

[Host]

So what about. So we this with one of our huskies, the front door problem. When the front door rings, he just goes berserk and insane and goes to the front door. And if we let him go, he would tear the thing down.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

To get to the person but not to hurt them. Yeah, they wouldn't, they would get to them and you know, lick them. But that, the person doesn't know that. How does. We've never been able to.

[Jim Kessler]

Well, there's multiple, there's, I mean there's a couple things, you know, and I'd have to really like see the dog, the behavior of the dog. But you know, you can, I don't know if you use a crate with the dog. If you use a crate, he's passed.

[Host]

So we wouldn't have to. Now his brother, the other husky is perfectly fine with the door. You can ring it all day long, it doesn't move.

[Jim Kessler]

I mean you can, you could use a, use a crate in that situation. What I mean by a crate in that situation is like I referred to earlier about a crate. A crate is a safe place for a dog and you can assign a, you could assign, hey, this could be, you know, go to your crate and the dog when, when that doorbell rings, you know, you tell them to go to their crate and they have to go to their crate and rest there. Or in a situation like that, you could, you know, it could be through patterning the dog you bring the dog to the door on a leash. You put the dog at a sit on sit rest. We use rest. We don't use stay, we use rest. It means the same command, but you could have a dog rest on your left side and the dog has to, the dog has to exhibit some self control on their part if they want to be interacted. Like if, if you want a jerk your for. If the visitors come into your house, if they want to interact with the dog, the dog has to exhibit some self control on their part. So what's, what does the dog want? The dog wants to greet the person. What are you doing? By having them sitting and resting, you're saying okay, you're, you're rewarding. The reward there is. I wanna, I wanna meet you. I wanna say hey, you know, I want to see. I'm gonna say hey, I'm a dog. Hahaha. You know, tail wagon. Put the dog at a sit rest. And then when the person you, you let the dog know, okay, it's, it's safe for you to pet the, it's okay for you to pet the dog and then the dog. That's, that's one way. That's one way. And again you, that's the type of stuff you want to start Earl early. I mean, can you teach an old dog new tricks? Yeah, you can teach an old dog new tricks. You could. Yeah, you can, but it's, I mean it's always easier when they're younger. It's even the same thing with children, you know.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

Isn't it?

[Host]

Right.

[Jim Kessler]

I mean I have four kids. I know what it's all about.

[Host]

Form good habits rather than break bad.

[Jim Kessler]

Well said.

[Host]

Awesome.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah.

[Host]

Is there anything that you can think of, did anything come up during this interview that you would like to talk about or bring up or anything you think I may have missed? This is an incredible.

[Jim Kessler]

Yeah, well, like I said, we could probably talk for hours on the organization, you know, there's, it has a deep rooted history.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

You know, and we're the oldest school in, in the world and I, and I'm biased, but I, I, I feel, I feel we're the best school, you know. And I'm not saying, you know, other schools are good, but you know, we're, I'm proud to be a part of this organization. Being a part of this organization has made me a better person overall. You know, just working for this organization, it's made me a better person and I owe, I owe that to the organization and you know, it's, yeah, I can't say enough good things. I can't say enough good things about the organization. I can't say the people I work with. I can't say enough good things about the students that I interact with on a daily basis. The courage and everything, you know, they, that, you know, they're, they're leading normal lives. And, and you know, I, I, they're, you know, they're, they're a big, they're the, they're the motivation every day is the students. Because like I said, we're, we're a people organization.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

It's the people that drive our organization. Yes. Dogs are huge. Dogs are a big component of, and I like. And I, I, I, I'm, I'm a dog fan, you know, but it's the people that really, at the end of the day, it's awesome. Yeah.

[Host]

Well, I want to say thank you for being here.

[Jim Kessler]

Hey, man, it's great. This is fun.

[Host]

Awesome. The insights here are incredible. I took so many notes. One day my kids are going to be able to go through this. Every episode I do a different, like these are all notes from today. They're going to have that to look, you know, to look at. And yeah, it's my thing's curiosity, if you're curious in life. Right.

[Jim Kessler]

What if you're curious, what is, was it, who was it? I don't know if it was Thoreau or Whitman that said be curious, not judgmental, you know?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

I think I forget who it was. But, you know, it's funny, I was, I'll leave with this, but I was driving over here and my, my wife, I'm talking to my wife quick. I'm like shaky there yet. And I'm like, almost. She's like, you're late as usual. And I'm like, yep. And, but I'm talking, I'm talking to her and she asked, she's like, are you nervous? And I said, I said, if I can not talk about this with knowledge and passion.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

After 24 plus years of doing it, then, then I, then I have a problem. So to me, it's just like a conversation and you know, like, like, it's funny. It'll just strike up a conversation. And I was traveling because there's times and we didn't go into depth about this, but there's times that we'll take a dog to the, to, we'll take a dog to the student in their home environment and train them at their home. But there's times I'm traveling on a plane with a dog and I'm there with a dog and harness. And it's, you know, people come up and just, it's a, it's a million, like, questions, you know, it's just, yeah, it's, it's, And I love talking about, I love talking about, you know, it's never, it's never like a, you know, but it's just, it's, it's, it's my life.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Jim Kessler]

You know, it's my life.

[Host]

So awesome. I think it's so cool. You got a great story. Thanks for sharing all this under the hood stuff. There'll be many other questions that will pour in and come in and, and I'll send them your way and you can comment on them and everything, but.

[Jim Kessler]

I want to shake pleasure, man, and.

[Host]

Say thanks for being here.

[Jim Kessler]

Pleasure, really. Thank you.