← 🎙️ Interesting Humans Podcast
🎙️ Interesting Humans Podcast
Ep 41: For Parents: Big 6 Theory, COVID Developmental Effects on Kids by age, Hannah Rinehart, LPC
01:09:35
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- [00:00]
A
Okay, we have a very interesting topic here. I've always loved this one because I knew something didn't make sense when we were in Covid, a very critical time in kids lives. Right. Where they needed to be around people, they needed to socialize, they needed to be doing all these things out and about, and we pulled that away from them. So today's episode, I have licensed professional counselor Hannah Reinhart. Thank you for being here.
- [00:30]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [00:31]
A
First off, thank you so much. We're going to have an awesome episode. And you focus. Your practice focuses on children, adolescents.
- [00:39]
B
Children, adolescents, families, and women.
- [00:41]
A
Okay, awesome. So I want to get. I want to get right into it. How did Covid impact developmental needs for kids?
- [00:51]
B
So the CDC would say that there's like an increase in 25% with anxiety, depression worldwide. But I would say what I saw in my office was 100%. And what I saw, even professionally, like, personally professionally, like, I mean, I don't know any friends that weren't impacted with COVID You know, there was no one walking around that was like, I'm super chill about this and it doesn't bother me at all, you know?
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A
Right.
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B
So I feel like even that statistic is really under represented.
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A
And that's from where that's.
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B
You're so that. I mean, that's cdc. Yeah, that's like cdc, that's just like common statistics is Covid increased anxiety worldwide 25%. And so I think we're walking around with this misnomer too, that maybe it wasn't as big of a deal as it actually was. And I was always surprised, like, when I was meeting with people and talking with people, that the people I thought would be maybe incredibly anxious weren't as anxious. And the people I thought that would respond and adapt to Covid, well, did not. So it's almost like it unarmed us so so much that we did the opposite of what maybe our natural instinct would be.
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A
The opposite. Wow.
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B
And so I think it's something that, like, you really have to kind of wrestle with. Like, how did you respond? And, yeah, like, are you okay with that? You know, okay. And then how do you walk past this and get back to maybe who you were before COVID or like a new normal?
- [02:16]
A
So this we're not. We don't even know the ultimate outcome yet. It's still to be determined. So. All right, then let's take a child. Think of any case in your mind. We don't need to know the name. Somebody who came in, sort of unpack for us, tell us a Story of how a child just got the, I don't know, the short end of the stick or. I'm not even sure how to say it, but they came to you and like really got affected negatively.
- [02:47]
B
Well, I think there's so many things because Covid disrupted our routines. It isolated people, it limited, like early childhood interactions. You know, preschools closed and those stayed closed way longer than traditional schools did. Caregivers were wearing masks so children didn't learn like even responsiveness or emotions, like emotion regulation, watching adult caregivers, you know, like so like when you're a young two year old, you're watching your caregiver and you're seeing how they interpret emotions and stuff and they could not see that. And so I think there's just so many things that maybe our kids missed young that they're still kind of catching up on.
- [03:32]
A
Can they ever catch up?
- [03:34]
B
Yeah, for sure.
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A
Is that a thing?
- [03:35]
B
Yeah, I think they definitely can. I mean, there's things that as parents we can do and can purposely do.
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A
Yeah.
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B
That would really help increase emotional regulation and resilience in our kids.
- [03:46]
A
And we're going to get into that stuff. If you just had to take a wild guess. We don't need data, stats or anything. Who, who was more negatively affected, adults or kids?
- [04:01]
B
I don't know. I was thinking like, as we were talking about this, about a lemonade stand that our family did in the middle of COVID So like July. So I mean, not right when everything started, but kind of, well, in to things. And this was an outdoor thing. You know, we had some of our neighbors, we were raising money for an adoption that we were doing.
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A
Okay.
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B
And I look around and my daughter is putting papers on the ground six feet apart in our driveway, taping them down to the ground and she's writing, stand here.
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A
And what age is your daughter? Stand here.
- [04:31]
B
At that time she was 8. And I just was kind of, my mind was blown that a. She had noticed, you know, like everywhere we went it was like, you're allowed to stand here, you're not allowed to stand here, you're allowed to stand here, you're not allowed to stand here. And she had interpreted that, you know, process that and was putting that to like those instructions out for all of our neighbors and stuff.
- [04:56]
A
Oh my goodness.
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B
And that was just something she'd observed, you know, like that wasn't something I said, hey, I need you to go put six foot markers in our driveway so that when someone comes to order a cup of lemonade, they don't stand Too close to each other.
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A
Right.
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B
So I think there's just so many things that, like, these little kids were taught adult things.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Even just by observation that they weren't really ready to handle.
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A
Right. You know, I'm intrigued by the facial thing that you said. I. My mind never even went there. So. So if a child's being told by a caregiver, whatever, command or whatever, no, don't do that.
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B
Don't touch that.
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A
But they can't really see because the mask is on. So what happens there? They don't know how to react.
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B
It's caused learning delays, like speech issues in a lot of kids, because you can't see how things are supposed to be enunciated. It's caused, like, emotional delays. You know, like, it's. It's difficult for some kids to interpret emotions. Interpret. I mean, there's research to show that by five years old, a kid can accurately interpret a parent's emotion just by, like, the way they respond. So, like, if a parent is deeply angry.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And they're telling their kid, no, I'm not. No, I'm not. The kid knows that they're deeply angry. So, like, if you take that and you combine that with a mask or something, like, they're so confused, you know, like, they might be being told one thing, but they're observing something else, or their. Their observation is kind of limited.
- [06:29]
A
That's incredible. Okay. This topic was so interesting to me personally, and now you've just taken it to a whole new level. So. So, I mean, I was. I. My. My mind's blown. I never even thought of that. So. Facial. Oh, my goodness. All right. By 5, they're supposed to be you. You said what they should have by five. Give me what you should have in sort of the next category, maybe. Is it 5 to 10 or 12?
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B
Where should they have been at? So ages 2 to 5 are probably the most important for learning, like, socialization and stuff, because that's when a kid's learning to share.
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A
Yeah.
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B
That's when they're learning to, like, interact with peers, take turns. They're understanding what's socially acceptable, what's not. So a bunch of our kids were taken out of those environments during that time.
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A
Right, right, right.
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B
Especially, like, if you were an only child and you only had your parents around or, you know, like, think about, like, families that didn't have other siblings or whatever. Like, they're impacted even more significantly than maybe a family that did have siblings. So those social skills, like that. The reduction in social skills is going to lead to more anxiety, low self esteem, difficulty forming relationships.
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A
Right.
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B
And so it's like, we have to intentionally enter in that and engage in that and make sure our kids have those skills.
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A
Right. And that's the stuff that you're saying that we can do, but does this. This has to be intentional.
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B
So there's a therapist that I love called. His name is Adam Young, and he has spent his whole career researching what kids need to form secure attachments with adults. So he breaks it down into six categories, and he calls it the big six.
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A
Okay.
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B
And he says that there's six things that every kid needs to have, like, optimal brain development to be securely attached and into a functioning, healthy adult, which is what all of us want our children to be. Right. You know, so the first thing is attunement, and that's literally like tuning in. Like, a parent is able to tune in and accurately assess what their child is feeling. But the key is that the parent isn't distracted by their own stuff, you know, their own emotions.
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A
Right.
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B
Their own issues. Like, how much are we, like, kind of listening to our kids? But then you're like, oh, my gosh, I got to go pack the car. Make sure we got everything for carpool. Make sure I got the chairs in there for the game we've got to go to. You know, like, there's always stuff that as adults, we have to do.
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A
Sure. Or it's. Or it's. What do you need? Right. Oh, my gosh.
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B
Okay, so the first thing is being attuned.
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A
Attuned. All right, Got it.
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B
Which is easier said than done. Right?
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A
This is so helpful already. If we just, like, hit stop right now. If I could just walk upstairs and go, I just want to have. I want to practice this.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Okay. Awesome.
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B
So that's the first thing.
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A
Yep.
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B
The second thing is responsiveness, response. So, like, how are you responding when your child is sad, mad, afraid? Are you dismissing it? Like, hey, that's not a big deal. Wipe it off, suck it up. You know, it's going to be fine. Which maybe it is. Or are you offering care, concern, comfort?
- [09:51]
A
Right.
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B
So it's like they may have stubbed their toe and they're crying, which may not be a big deal to you, but to them, it's a big deal.
- [09:59]
A
It's like, probably their whole life.
- [10:01]
B
Their whole life, their whole world. So can you get down on eye level? Say, I'm so sorry, buddy. Let me give you a hug. Okay. Do you need a band aid? Are you okay? Move on. But that still offers Care, concern, responsiveness. Lets them know that you see them and you care about them as a person. Human.
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A
What are bad? Let's stay on responsiveness. What would be bad practices on that?
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B
I think totally ignoring, you know, like, you're fine, no big deal. And then I think you can swing the other way and be like so responsive that you're like totally absorbed in your child's life and you don't have your own. You know, like, I think there's two ends of the.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Spectrum. So I'm kind of talking about like a healthy. A healthy middle ground, you know, not like your child not running your life. But also you're not totally ignoring them or shaming them for crying over something that you don't think is that big of a deal.
- [10:53]
A
Is. Does minimalization come in here like, oh, it's no big deal.
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B
You just totally dismissive. Minimize.
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A
What does that, what does that, what does that do to a kid if you're minimizing?
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B
What would it do to you if you're minimized?
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A
Right. Would it. Would it 10x it for a kid because their brain's smaller? Right. Like, it would destroy me.
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B
Right.
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A
It may not look it because I'll put on a mask of the world that I'm not destroyed, but it would still hurt. Yeah, absolutely.
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B
And so I think it does the same thing to our kids.
- [11:24]
A
Right. And they're forming. I'm formed already, unfortunately. Or, I mean, I know you can change, but for sake of the kid, they're still like, Right.
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B
So that's where they're learning. Like, are my needs important or are they not? Do I matter or do I not?
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A
And that would send a message.
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B
Sending a message, whether it's something you're clearly stating or not, it's still sending them a message and it's still communicating. Like, your needs matter or they don't matter. Your wishes, your wants, your desires, your emotions, you know, those things matter. They don't matter.
- [11:59]
A
Okay. So that's. Okay. That's incredible. So we have attunement, we have responsiveness.
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B
The next one is engagement. So are you able to have a genuine desire to understand your child's heart and pursue them?
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A
Okay.
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B
And so that's like talking to them, you know, looking them in the eye if they hate soccer and you're like, you're gonna play soccer no matter what, you know, like, are you listening to them? Are you not saying, they have to make every decision, but they still get to say, still get to vote. It is their, you know, their life.
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A
And then What? And then is it. I always also want to understand the flip side. So then what's bad? Engagement in this case would be like.
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B
I mean, then I think you can be too engaged.
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A
I know better.
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B
Yes. You can either be, like, dictator, and, like, you're gonna do what I say no matter what. I'm the parent.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Which sometimes you. You need to make the. You know, you need to be the parent, make the decision. And then there's the other side of, like, too engaged and you having no life, you know? So again, I think it's this, like, middle balance of. There's another statistic that talks about as parents, we only have to get it right 50% of the time.
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A
Oh, that's incredible. I just felt better. That immediately made. Seriously, really?
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B
So, like, 50% of the time is still a positive interaction with your kid. So I'm not thinking you're gonna be perfect and everything's gonna be amazing and, you know, like, you're never gonna have a bad day or you're never gonna be tired or, you know, whatever. I'm a mom, too. I have four kids, so I understand what it's like to be overwhelmed, stressed out, late for carpool, all the things.
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A
Right.
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B
But you want to get it right about 50% of the time.
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A
Okay.
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B
And so that's focusing on loving and supporting. Like, those are the two key things that we want to love and support.
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A
Love and support. Love and support. Loving. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.
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B
50% of the time.
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A
50% of the time.
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B
Recognizing that there' days, they'll have bad days, you'll have bad days, you'll screw things up, you know?
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A
Absolutely.
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B
That will happen.
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A
Absolutely. So 50% of the time to get an outcome of, like, feeling securely attached.
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B
Feeling like an adult really cares about me. And ironically, your kid only needs one adult to securely attach to them, to be able to securely attach to others. 1.
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A
Really? And does it matter if it's m.
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B
Like, doesn't matter if it's mom or dad, really?
- [14:23]
A
Oh, my gosh. This is so cool. Okay, then.
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B
So the next question.
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A
Yeah, no, that's. Okay. So I have a thousand questions, and I'm trying to make it into one. So what happens with the absolute. Just the fan. The parents that are just so far off, there's. They don't. They have no hope. They don't even want to hear this message. It's just a horrific. It's like defects hasn't been called yet, but if they were called somehow. It's just so terrible at home. Is that child a Hundred percent. Just no chance. Or do they still have a chance to become a securely attached adult?
- [15:09]
B
Yeah, well, I think that they still have a chance. And my prayer would be that maybe a teacher is attaching or a coach or you know, someone else. Like there's some other adult that's like present.
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A
Yeah.
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B
In their life.
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A
Right. Because the child doesn't know this. They don't know. I need to find one person.
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B
Okay.
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A
Okay.
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B
But I think that's why it's so helpful for us to keep our eyes open, you know, for maybe a kid that's hurting or like isn't as paid attention to or, you know, whatever.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Because it is important for every person to feel valued and cared for.
- [15:43]
A
Right. Okay. So yeah, we're, we're episode 43 today and I would say at least a handful that I can that come to mind of people that I've interviewed have had this significant pivotal point in their life that was brought on by a mentor who engaged.
- [16:01]
B
Ah.
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A
So here's the clinical side of the Stacey Millers of the world. All these people that are saying, yeah, this guy came into my life, embraced me and wouldn't let me go.
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B
And that's what changed.
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A
Oh my goodness. Okay, cool. So we have attunement, we have responsiveness, we have engagement. Awesome.
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B
Then we have ability to help them regulate during moments of distress, fear or anxiety.
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A
Okay.
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B
So that's teaching them how to handle when something bad happens. So my world is called co regulation. So like if you are a regulated adult, then you can help your child to be regulated. So say they're freaking out, having a full on meltdown. If you have a meltdown too, what is that gonna do?
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A
So the dentist, that's what reminds me of the dentist. Right. If I go in and I'm freaking.
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B
Out and you're all stressed and you're all anxious, they're gonna be all anxious. But if you're calm and you go in and you're like, hey buddy, I know this is not super fun for anybody, but yeah, I'm gonna be here, I'm gonna hold your hand and it's gonna be okay.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So you stay calm and regulated. That teaches them how to be calm and regulated.
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A
Same thing with at home situations. At home.
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B
Yeah. And they're watching, you know, like they're watching. How are we responding?
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A
Yeah.
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B
And how are we coping? And are we trying to escape or are we trying to be present? You know, like how are we handling these moments of distress? Because we all have them. Like you're in traffic Are you screaming and cursing or are you calm? You can be frustrated, you know, but like.
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A
Sure.
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B
How are you handling it?
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A
What do you do when you do fly off? What's the best way to come back for? Whether it's seeking forgiveness or apologizing, like, what's the right thing to do there?
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B
One of the things is willingness to repair. That's another category.
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A
Of the six.
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B
Yes, of the six.
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A
Oh, okay. What was this one? One more time. I have ability to have them regulate.
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B
To regulate during moments of distress, fear or anxiety.
- [18:01]
A
Okay. Moments of. Okay. Fear or anxiety. Oh, my gosh, this is so good. Okay, so we've got attunement. We've got responsiveness. We've got engagement. We've got ability to have them regulate during moments of stress, fear or anxiety. Okay, four or five.
- [18:20]
B
Five is strong enough to handle their big emotions. So are you able to handle them being sad, angry, experiencing negative emotions without shutting them down or telling them that those emotions are bad or wrong? And so often as parents, I think we do that we're just like, stop yelling or stop, you know, you're embarrassing me. Right. Like, don't act this way in public. You're embarrassing me.
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A
Right.
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B
Which I get. You know, like, no one wants to have a kid that they have to carry out a target because they're, you know, screaming. Yeah, but it happens.
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A
It happens, you know. Right.
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B
And so, like, how are you going to handle that as a parent? And how are you going to help them handle that?
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A
And how do. How do you. Let's use that scenario. That's a great one. What's the right way to handle them? Because I. Wow.
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B
So I. I too, have carried children out of stores for me, you know, sometimes they can't pull it together. Yeah, I get that. That's okay. Maybe there's a lot of noise in there. The lights are weird, Big store, you know, it's overwhelming. Whatever. They can't have what they want. You're not gonna buy them the 200 toy, whatever, you know, on a Thursday, after a Thursday, for no reason, you know, I get it. But in that scenario, I would take them to the car and then I would try to help them calm down. So whether that's getting a cup of ice cold water. Sensory helps calm down your senses. Listening to calming music, maybe doing some deep breathing with them or a game of I Spy, which is grounding, helps them be back in the moment. But I think the important thing here is so often we want to discipline our children when that happens. And I'm all for discipline. But when they're in those moments, they are not thinking clearly, so their brain goes what we call offline. So, like, this is your prefrontal cortex.
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A
Okay.
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B
When you lose all ability to regulate, your brain flips a lid and you have no ability to think.
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A
So that's a literal term, Literal thinking. You flip a lid.
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B
You flip a lid, really? So you're losing all your ability to regulate yourself. So what we want to do is help them kind of bring that down. So when you do the calming, the breathing, all those things.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Then they're able to engage this prefrontal cortex, which is then when you can discipline. Hey, buddy. We can't do that. We cannot act that way. We cannot behave that way. Like, we need to discuss what we're going to do differently. Give consequence if you need to, you know, whatever you need to do.
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A
Right.
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B
But disciplining them, which is so often what we want to do, when they have totally flipped their lid, is like the least helpful thing we can do, really.
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A
So it's delayed. You delay until the lid goes back on, so to speak.
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B
Until they're calm and you're calm. You know, because so often, like, we're upset, we're humiliated and embarrassed. They're upset, and so we're just disciplining out of anger, frustration, embarrassment, you know, whatever. And it doesn't work well for anybody.
- [21:18]
A
No. Never. Oh, my goodness. That's awesome. Okay, great.
- [21:22]
B
Well, let's say you do.
- [21:24]
A
Yeah.
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B
Then the last thing is willingness to repair.
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A
Okay, there we go.
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B
And so that's when you fail. Not if, but when. Are you able and willing to repair this? Are you willing to ask for an apology? Are you willing to do something that repairs and creates that secure attachment?
- [21:42]
A
Okay, and what does that do with a kid? I can guess, but I don't even want to guess anymore after hearing these notes, because my guess is, wow.
- [21:50]
B
Okay, so that's gonna help them learn how to do that as an adult. That's gonna help them learn how to do that with you as a parent, with their siblings, with their classmates, and then as an adult. So we all mess up, we all make mistakes, and we all need to be willing to own our mistakes.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I would think that also helps with, like, not having things open ended, which is.
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B
Right.
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A
Which could be very challenging. Like, there's no closure on anything. So, like, everything's just. I've got all these things out there that are. That need repair. They might even be resentment, whatever they.
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B
Are, totally can turn into resentment.
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A
And if you don't learn how to.
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B
Almost close the loop. Yep.
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A
Is that okay? Wow.
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B
Because it becomes the elephant in the room. Then if you don't, like, it's all these tied, untied ends.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And then that just builds up and builds up and builds up and creates resentment between you and somebody else with you and your kids, you know, like, it. It doesn't go anywhere, you know, unless you close that loop, it doesn't go anywhere.
- [22:55]
A
And then I would think the kid would take those patterns through life and have that relationships where you have all these relationships that crash and burn, but you never make them right. Or.
- [23:05]
B
Well, they never learned how.
- [23:07]
A
They never learned how. Oh, my. So important almost is a rule of thumb, like, don't go to sleep with an unopened. Is that sort of accurate?
- [23:19]
B
Don't let the sun go down on your wrath.
- [23:20]
A
You know, There you go. Right.
- [23:22]
B
Like it's advice as old as time. We ignore it.
- [23:27]
A
That's a good one. Okay. That's a game changer. So these are the. These are the big six, called the Big Six.
- [23:34]
B
And Adam Young has a great podcast that talks about all these things and unpacks it even more. He has a new book that's coming out.
- [23:41]
A
Okay.
- [23:42]
B
These have been so helpful for me in my life, personally with my kids, but also in counseling.
- [23:46]
A
Yeah. Okay. Adam Young. Awesome. That's incredible. So then what happens to sort of bring closure to this? What happens if all this stuff is denied, like, meaning, like socialization and all these other things that we're talking about through Covid? Sort of. Let's. Let's spend time on what happens. And are you a hundred percent in trouble if the parents don't intentionally try to, you know, fill those voids or.
- [24:20]
B
Well, in my job, I have to hold hope a lot. So I think if I didn't have hope, I would have burned out and quit a long time ago, you know, So I don't think anyone's too far gone or too far without repair. And even in the counseling room, that's what we're doing is building a healthy relationship. Building, give and take, someone that listens, someone that's attuning to you, someone that's responding, you know, like, we're doing all of these things.
- [24:45]
A
Yeah.
- [24:46]
B
And so even if that's the only space that it happens, it's going to be better than it not happening.
- [24:51]
A
Wow. What is. What's happening? When somebody had this done, like, they'll. They'll say to me, just to make sure I understand what you're Saying or to clarify what you're saying. It seems like it's intentional, but it's actually awesome.
- [25:08]
B
What is active listening.
- [25:10]
A
Huh.
- [25:11]
B
So you're listening and then you're stating back to someone to make sure that what you heard was correct. And then that gives the person a chance to clarify correct. Say, no, that's not what I said.
- [25:22]
A
Really? I'd be wrong every time if I had to start doing that.
- [25:25]
B
The first thing we learned in grad school, active listening.
- [25:28]
A
No way. Which sounds so easy. I would be like, I don't need that class. I'm good. And meanwhile, it's probably the worst thing.
- [25:35]
B
First skill is you feel blank because blank. And so you have to pick a feeling word and you have to pick why. And then the person says yes or no or you're so far off. No, I don't feel anxiety. I feel sadness.
- [25:49]
A
Is that from the feeling. The feeling wheel feeling the famous things?
- [25:52]
B
Yep.
- [25:53]
A
Wow. Is that important with kids to do? Is that something I could start doing with my kids?
- [25:58]
B
Sure, yeah.
- [25:59]
A
It's incredible. Okay, this is, this is awesome. All right, let's, let's move on and get into the. The elephant in the room. Tablets, phones, switches, how they impact us, how technology in general affects us. There's stuff out there about blue light. Is that even relevant? Like, there's so much to unpack here. So why don't we start from the top? What, what ages should not get these?
- [26:34]
B
0 to 2. No screens.
- [26:37]
A
No screens, no screens. What do you do when their brothers and sisters are on screens and they want it? Phone. Phone or.
- [26:44]
B
I mean, in my experience, a two year old's not going to sit down and really watch tv. Like my kids haven't really paid much attention to like a show or whatever. I think a phone is way more enticing to them because they can hold it.
- [26:56]
A
Oh yeah, it is.
- [26:56]
B
You know, like they can touch it, they can play with it. It's way more interactive than putting on a bluey or something.
- [27:02]
A
Yeah.
- [27:04]
B
Honestly, I think if you're limiting screen time for all your kids and you're only watching one show a day or something, it's not going to be that big of a deal for a two year old to occasionally watch it.
- [27:14]
A
Right.
- [27:14]
B
I think the bigger harm is the personal devices, the tablets, switches, smaller handheld.
- [27:21]
A
They can scroll through and. Okay, then as we move up through the ages to zero to two, none. What's sort of the next.
- [27:28]
B
Yeah, two to five. You're not supposed to have more than an hour a day and that's all screen time. So that's phone, tv, computer.
- [27:36]
A
Okay.
- [27:37]
B
Video games, everything.
- [27:40]
A
Wow. Or. Or else. Or what? Like what. What did we look at?
- [27:46]
B
I mean. So again, it's kind of the socialization stuff, like tablets and things are so isolating. And that's the thing that I see more and more. Like the kids are not able to regulate their emotions because they're numbed out watching something. And then when you take that away, it's taken away like a drug, you know? And so their response is anger, frustration, being overwhelmed.
- [28:09]
A
Yeah.
- [28:10]
B
And they get emotionally flooded, which is when they're flipping their lid, their brain goes offline.
- [28:15]
A
Yeah.
- [28:16]
B
And then you've got a kid that's melting down.
- [28:19]
A
Very familiar. Okay, that's two to five. What? What? Let's go up. What, what's the next category and suggestion?
- [28:26]
B
It's like 6 to 12. And then it kind of varies because it's based so much. School is online now, you know, and so that kind of skews the recommendations actually.
- [28:37]
A
Yeah.
- [28:38]
B
So like if you find stuff kind of pre Covid, it's still like one hour a day, but then now it's like six hours for six or 12. Because so much of their computer time is.
- [28:49]
A
And even in the classroom, aren't they.
- [28:50]
B
Doing stuff on in the classrooms or homework has to be online. Digital days, you know, all the things. So really what's being even instructed by school is against what the.
- [29:01]
A
Yeah.
- [29:02]
B
Recommendation.
- [29:03]
A
And this is the. These numbers, these suggestions are for their cognitive brain development. Brain development. This is not like if you're violating these numbers, you're going to have like physical eye problems.
- [29:20]
B
Well, you could problem.
- [29:21]
A
Or is it mixed together?
- [29:22]
B
Yeah, you can. So like there's, you know, addiction, overuse, there's information overload. Like there's so much stuff out there. It's more than any of us can actually process.
- [29:32]
A
What's that? You know, like the second one that.
- [29:33]
B
You said, information overload. So like there's more available at our fingertips than our brain can actually process. Whether that's news, whether that's emails. Like, think about how many emails and texts and calls you get in a day. Plus you add in like the news is pinging this update. This update. Like your brain can't keep up.
- [29:50]
A
Right.
- [29:51]
B
With all that.
- [29:51]
A
So you go into what. What happens. You go and like flight mode or fight. Yeah.
- [29:55]
B
Just totally flip your lid too. You know, we're all walking around like, what is happening?
- [30:01]
A
So we have flipped lids, all of us. Right.
- [30:05]
B
All the time. And then you wonder why people are mad at Each other.
- [30:09]
A
Right. And can't regulate our own emotions and flying off the handle and wow, like.
- [30:17]
B
There'S just too much coming at us.
- [30:19]
A
Yeah, too much.
- [30:20]
B
But yes, there's eye issues that come, like sleep disturbance from all the blue light stuff.
- [30:25]
A
So that's a real thing? Blue light's a real thing, yeah. And what is that? Can you have it?
- [30:30]
B
Like, so having. Yeah, so having computer phone time too close to bedtime will keep you from going into a deeper sleep and keeps your body from producing melatonin, which helps you sleep so then you sleep worse. Yeah, it's definitely a real thing.
- [30:46]
A
All right, so that's two to three hours before bed. None of the blue light to any of those certain screens that say that they limit blue. Like, does that work?
- [30:55]
B
Blue, like filters? I mean, you can try all this stuff. I think it probably depends. Mostly can't hurt person. Yeah, I don't think it hurts. And there's special glasses you can wear at night when you're watching TV that have like the red. Yeah, I've seen those. The red lens one.
- [31:07]
A
No better way to isolate from your family members than to get a pair of glasses. I. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
- [31:16]
B
You know, there's all the things. It just depends on what you want to invest in and what you. How important TV is.
- [31:22]
A
So incredible where like that it is. It's wild.
- [31:26]
B
How much are you willing to pay for?
- [31:28]
A
Yeah, but so the point is, I guess, is like, try it. You're better off using it than not using it. The reality of it is we're probably not gonna adhere to these numbers. I mean, would you. How, like, where are you in those parameters? Do you try to be in those.
- [31:50]
B
Parameters for screen time? Yeah, yeah, we do try. We do try to limit screen time. We try to watch like 30 minutes a day or less with my kids, really. Unless it's like a Friday night movie or, you know, something that's more of a special, you know, special occasion. Yeah, but I don't know. Have you read the book Habits of the Household?
- [32:10]
A
Yeah, he was on. I had him on in the beginning, episode 11.
- [32:14]
B
I think he talks a lot about, you know, making habits that are family habits instead of the isolation. And I think this is a great place that that applies. You know, like, are you gathering together to watch a show or does each kid have a TV in their room?
- [32:27]
A
That's awesome.
- [32:28]
B
You know, like, are you gathering together for a family movie night and it's like a community building thing, or you each on a tablet watching something separate, you know, like how Are you going about. I'm not. Like, you can't ever have technology, but.
- [32:41]
A
Right, right.
- [32:42]
B
Is it something that isolates each person of the family, even from each other, or is it something that brings the whole family together?
- [32:49]
A
Yeah.
- [32:49]
B
Because I think it either is one or the other.
- [32:51]
A
Right.
- [32:52]
B
You know?
- [32:52]
A
Right.
- [32:53]
B
If there's not really a middle ground.
- [32:54]
A
How could there be? Right.
- [32:57]
B
It's either everybody has a TV in their own room, everybody has their own tablet, everybody has their own switch, you know, and they're all just doing their own thing and there's, like, little to no regulation. Or it's something that, like, we have a computer and it's on the kitchen counter, and that's where you're going to do your homework around everybody, or you're going to sit and everybody watches the show and you have to vote on it, or, you know, like, it's a family thing versus each individual that's person.
- [33:22]
A
Okay, that's interesting. Yeah, that's a great. Family habits. That's an awesome concept to come up with all together.
- [33:31]
B
But it's like, if you do that, it's going to kind of regulate the screen time.
- [33:35]
A
Yeah.
- [33:36]
B
Just by that choice.
- [33:37]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [33:39]
B
So I think that's important. You know, it's like, what habits do you want to have in your household? And then it kind of shakes down from there.
- [33:47]
A
It shakes down from there. Okay, cool. So I think another good nugget that you mentioned is TVs not in the room. In the rooms. That's a. Okay. So. So I'm encouraged. I have a little bit of encouragement in here now because we're like, that's one rule. No budging. Nobody's getting a TV in the room. We don't have one, they won't have one. But in the other, I could see lots of room for improvement in our household based on these numbers. So. Okay, cool. So moving on. Anything. This. The six. So the big six. That's critical. And I would guess in your practice, that's a big corner shift that we.
- [34:27]
B
Try to teach parents how to do that we try to work. So, like, if I have someone that has come in and then is an adult that has a lot of childhood hurt, that is something that we will kind of work through and figure out, you know, like, where are their pain points from their childhood or their adulthood?
- [34:46]
A
Right.
- [34:47]
B
Where have been harm? Where's harm been done? How do we repair those things or grieve those things or, you know, whatever we need to do.
- [34:54]
A
Yeah.
- [34:55]
B
So that then they can move forward and try to Create those big six in their adult relationships.
- [35:01]
A
Okay, so this. Now this is starting to sound like if you. The dog training. The dog analogy, it's more training the owner than the dog. I mean, is that what this is?
- [35:12]
B
So, like, helping parents learn what's important and what's.
- [35:15]
A
So if it's not. Child comes in and presents with these things, is it a first natural, like, maneuver for you guys to go, well, what's going on at home? Or do you. Or do you wait till a couple sessions?
- [35:30]
B
No, I'm big about incorporating parents from the beginning and also just doing assessments of, like, I love it. We love, like, the Wheel of Wellness. So it has all these different parts of social, emotional, educational, spiritual, all, you know, like, we want all the pieces of the pie to be healthy. We don't want it to be, like, 90. Mental health.
- [35:52]
A
Yeah.
- [35:52]
B
And then everything else is, you know, small or whatever. Like, we want to create a healthy whole person. And so that involves looking at how much are you sleeping, how much technology are you using, how much caffeine are you drinking, do you eat three meals a day? Do you exercise? You know, all these things play a factor and play a role into how we're functioning.
- [36:12]
A
Yeah, fascinating. Okay. Wheel of wellness, did you call it? What is that? Tell me about that a little bit.
- [36:18]
B
Sounds cool.
- [36:19]
A
I never even heard of it.
- [36:20]
B
Yeah. So it's literally just a wheel, and it has different. I think it's like eight different parts, different categories of somebody's life, like, out there of somebody's life. And so it's like educational, spiritual, home. I think, like, health, exercise, sleep, you know, all these friendships, you know, all these different categories.
- [36:43]
A
And these are things that you're looking at and assessing the patient.
- [36:47]
B
So, like, I had this girl one time who was coming in for panic attacks. Like, panic attacks all the time. Jittery, like, in session, Just jitter, Just shaking, Shaking.
- [36:56]
A
Wow.
- [36:56]
B
Already on medication, she can't figure out why her anxiety is so high. So we're looking at all the stuff I'm teaching her coping skills.
- [37:03]
A
Yeah.
- [37:03]
B
And I keep asking her, like, about her diet, about exercise, about, you know, water, all these things. And finally I was like, do you drink a lot of coffee? I'm like, I cannot figure out why this girl is, like, shaking in my office. And she goes, no, I hate coffee. I was like, okay, do you drink water? Like, what is happening?
- [37:23]
A
Right?
- [37:23]
B
And she goes, oh, no, I hate water. She goes, I do drink a case of mellow yellow a day. And I was like, oh, there we go.
- [37:33]
A
No way. A case of Mellow Yellow would be.
- [37:36]
B
If you stop that, you might be able to come off your Lexapro. Just saying.
- [37:44]
A
I'll be ripple. That's incredible.
- [37:47]
B
So it's things like that. You know, I. I view myself as a detective. You know, I'm trying to figure out what's going on and if there's anything that's kind of off that needs to be tweaked.
- [37:56]
A
Yeah.
- [37:56]
B
Like, what skills can I help teach?
- [37:58]
A
Yeah.
- [37:59]
B
Not saying I have all the answers, but there's things that, like, maybe are simple, you know, cutting out a case of Mellow Yellow, that's.
- [38:07]
A
That's remarkable. Did she do it? Did she cut it out?
- [38:09]
B
She did.
- [38:10]
A
Thank you. And what was the result?
- [38:13]
B
She feels way better.
- [38:15]
A
Imagine that. Substituted for water. Right. That's really cool. So what percentage. Thank you. What percentage of people. Of kids, actually. Let's see, on kids, what percentage that come to you on one or several medications? My understanding is, like, it's usually a couple that work together. So what percentage do you look at and you're like, oh, my gosh, this is so much easier to fix than medicine. Or, like, unpack that a little.
- [38:47]
B
Yeah. So best practice is medication and counseling combined. That is not always followed. You know, sometimes someone will get medication and they'll never go to counseling.
- [38:56]
A
Never do the counseling.
- [38:59]
B
So there's so many things that, like I said, go into a person, you know, that medication can't fix everything. And I've had people where, like, their vitamin B is really off and that's why they feel anxious, or their vitamin D is really low and that's why they feel depressed. You know, like, there's so many different things that are at play.
- [39:21]
A
Right.
- [39:22]
B
So when I meet with someone, I ask them to go get a physical and get their blood work check, and I have certain things that I ask for, and I want to see those results because I may be treating them for this thing. And then they're really, like, their hormones are off and that's why they feel so exhausted, you know, like, that's contributing to their depression. It may not be the whole of their depression, but if they're down in the hole physically and I'm up here trying to teach coping skills, those things are going to feel so overwhelming to them, so exhausting and so discouraging because they're already exhausted. Yeah, Right. So we need to make sure that physically they're where they need to be so that then we can teach and address other things.
- [40:04]
A
So if you had one thing in all of this Again, we'll stay focused on the kid, the children part. If you had one thing you wish that can just go away, like, can be wiped off of earth.
- [40:16]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [40:20]
A
Or a couple too hard. But, like, it's. I don't know, it seems more glaringly obvious now in talking to you of, like, what's really happening with all this stuff. I just see numbers all over the place. 20 of kids this, 8% of parents this, caffeine this. Like, what's. What's a thing.
- [40:42]
B
Well, and like with Jonathan Heights, the anxious generation.
- [40:46]
A
The anxious generation. Yeah. We were just talking about it yesterday.
- [40:48]
B
So that I think really sums up a lot of the technology issues.
- [40:52]
A
Yes.
- [40:53]
B
A lot of the, like, parents are over protecting kids in the real world, but under protecting them online.
- [41:00]
A
Yeah.
- [41:01]
B
So I don't know if I have one thing. I feel like I have a bunch of.
- [41:04]
A
Okay. Couple. Yeah.
- [41:04]
B
Let's talk about, you know, I think being engaged with your kids, you know, and like, being engaged with them. What are they doing online? Who are their friends, Spending time with them, like, being intentional, you know, like back to that big six. Like, are you pursuing their hearts? Are you trying to get to know them?
- [41:20]
A
Yeah.
- [41:21]
B
And that is hard, you know, and that is not always convenient. And we are parenting for who we want them to be as adults, not who we want them to just be today. Easy as a kid.
- [41:35]
A
That's a huge thing right there. So say that one more time.
- [41:39]
B
Parent, as you want them to be as an adult. Like, we want them to be functional adults that can make decisions, hold a job, have healthy relationships, but that takes work like that. We have to teach them those skills.
- [41:52]
A
Yeah.
- [41:52]
B
And so often we're just like, shut up and sit down.
- [41:55]
A
You know, like, because I'm your dad.
- [41:57]
B
Because I'm your dad. And that's why this is annoying that you're doing this, you know, so don't do it. Instead of either explaining or teaching them something to do differently, you know, like, we need to help them learn to make wise choices. It's not like they come already knowing that, you know, like, we have to teach them, we have to parent them. We have to actually engage with.
- [42:20]
A
Yeah, parent is like a verb. Like, it's. It's active.
- [42:24]
B
It's active. It's not a passive thing.
- [42:26]
A
That's really cool. Let's. Let's take one example. I want to dig deeper into this parent the way you want them to be as an adult. So let's take a situation and explain that a little deeper.
- [42:39]
B
Like, so, like, I'M thinking, I want my kids to be able to do laundry. I want them, them to know how to drive a car. I want them to know how to study and make good grades. I want them to know what it's like to eat healthy. I want them to know what it's like to listen to someone and not talk over them. You know, like there's all these skills that if you look around, you're like, those are my favorite friends. Those are my favorite people to be around. Why? Those are probably the people that are caring. They're genuine. They look you in the eye, they listen to you, you know, so like those are the adults that you like. Right. How do we teach our kids to have those skills? Because those adults didn't just show up that way.
- [43:19]
A
Wow. That's a game changer. Okay.
- [43:22]
B
I feel like so often we're taught just like discipline them, you know, like teach them don't get in the road. Yes. Like don't, you know, don't do these things. But like we need a little longer term perspective.
- [43:35]
A
What do you do with a kid? I won't give anybody any names, but he's in this house.
- [43:41]
B
I'll just say so.
- [43:44]
A
We have the road out front that you came in and it's a community road. We're not on a two lane road or anything like that. Right. So we're inside a neighborhood. And we just can't get him to understand when he crosses the road to stop and look both ways. And we try and it worked great with the kid. The two before him. Is it an age thing?
- [44:06]
B
It maybe.
- [44:08]
A
Why will he not? And yesterday was like not a close call. But if he would have been crossing three more seconds later, it had been a very close call. What, what do you do there? Like you can't stop them from going across the road. Right.
- [44:23]
B
Part of it could be development, you know, him not understanding.
- [44:26]
A
So he's four. He's. He's like a mature four. And we've had fours that were closer to threes.
- [44:33]
B
Yeah.
- [44:33]
A
But he's a more mature in a lot of areas. But in this area we just can't get him.
- [44:39]
B
Do you know why?
- [44:40]
A
Gotta look both ways.
- [44:42]
B
Like why does he. Why is the road fascinating?
- [44:46]
A
It's just when he's crossing to go to his friends, it's just, he won't.
- [44:49]
B
Like, he's just too.
- [44:50]
A
He'll just run right across. He's so excited. Right across or coming back, he's so excited. Last night like he was so excited to fly home because it was Getting dark and he didn't look.
- [45:00]
B
I don't know, maybe they're like telling me I should have a buddy with him, you know, like he can't cross by himself until he's trustworthy or, you know, like until. Yeah, until he can slow down enough to like make that decision.
- [45:12]
A
Yeah.
- [45:13]
B
You know, but maybe make it a rule that he has to have his older brother with him or something. Like he can't go by himself.
- [45:18]
A
Yeah.
- [45:20]
B
But I think trust is earned. And so I think you could explain that. Like you haven't been able to trust him to go across the road. So, like, until he can prove that he's trustworthy.
- [45:28]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [45:30]
B
Then he has to have accountability.
- [45:33]
A
What about shy? Like, that's one of the biggest things I hear in the. Just with kids and I know some of them, they truly come out of the womb just connecting with people and. And the opposite holds true. Right. The reverse holds true. So like, what's going on there is that they really didn't come out shy. You don't come out shy. You learn shy. Are you hearing things that are making you shy? Is it a real thing?
- [45:58]
B
Yeah, no, I think it's a real thing. I think people are more introverted or extroverted. Extroverted, okay. We all have that kind of natural born that way, you know, introverted, extroverted, whatever. Like that's your personality. But then I do think you can parent and make children more one way or more another.
- [46:14]
A
Okay.
- [46:16]
B
Like my oldest daughter, we. Her first summer doing ballet, she was terrified. Wouldn't dance in front of anyone. Stood in the corner, cried.
- [46:25]
A
What age?
- [46:26]
B
At three.
- [46:26]
A
At three. Okay.
- [46:27]
B
We're doing like this little summer recital and she won't dance. And so I had the choice then either say, okay, ballet is not for her, you know, we're just going to walk away from that, cut our losses. Or I could keep putting her in that, exposing her to that to prevent that from being an anxiety. To prevent that from being something that she deemed as bad or was afraid of.
- [46:51]
A
Wow.
- [46:52]
B
So I signed her back up, made her keep doing it.
- [46:55]
A
Love it. Okay, cool.
- [46:57]
B
Because I can either avoid the anxiety and it grows bigger or you can lean into the anxiety and it grows smaller. So avoidance creates more anxiety. And you can google like anxiety cycle and stuff, you know, but like avoiding anxiety makes it bigger. So I made her keep doing it. And she did it for six and a half years and loved dancing on the stage and it became her thing, which is amazing. And not every story turns out that way, but this is My kid, who probably is more predisposed to anxiety. And so, you know, if she says she's afraid of elevators, then I'm going to purposely make her ride them. You know, we're not going to avoid that. We're going to lean into what it is that you're afraid of. As long as it's a safe thing, you know, like, yeah, if you're afraid of snakes, okay, fine, you know, like, we don't have to go hold snakes or whatever. But if it's a safe, safe thing, we want to continually expose to that anxiety instead of pulling back. I think our natural inclination is to pull back and protect our kids from things that scare them. And that is not always the right thing to do.
- [48:00]
A
Huh. Very helpful. Okay, what, what ages is it appropriate? Or when do they start learning about death? And I asked the question based on, like, hey, don't jump off there because you'll die. Or they'll say like, why not? It's fun because you'll die. But I've noticed we have two, four, six and eight. So throw the two out. It's not relevant. The four and six year old, it's absolutely irrelevant. Like saying because you're gonna die, that means nothing to them. Is there an age where they do start understanding that? And you can use that in parenting to say, like, hey, don't hang upside down because if you fall nine feet on your head, you die. They like laugh at that, you know?
- [48:48]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think probably it's, it's more of an abstract concept, you know, like heaven, hell, death, you know, life. Like they can see people so they're alive. They maybe haven't lost someone, you know, to know that like that person was there and they're not there.
- [49:05]
A
Yeah.
- [49:06]
B
Anymore. So part of it might depend on life experiences because a two year old may understand death if their dad died, you know, so it might just be part of life.
- [49:15]
A
Yeah.
- [49:16]
B
Experience.
- [49:16]
A
What other things can you do in that case? Let's just assume that they don't.
- [49:20]
B
So I'll say like, you'll get really, really hurt. Like, okay, you have might have to go to the hospital for a really long time. You could explain, like you could break an arm. You know, you can even show them pictures. Like you could fall, you know, hurt your neck and like show them a picture of like a big neck brace or something. You know, like you could use like a visual, not to terrify them, but to like, this is what I'm talking about. Like, yeah, if it's more of an abstract concept, it might be hard to explain, but sometimes pictures are helpful.
- [49:52]
A
Wow, that's. I mean, there's so many great nuggets in here, but that, for me, personally, is awesome right there. Show the pictures because then they perfectly relate. I don't want that.
- [50:04]
B
Right. I don't want my neck to be in a brace or whatever, you know, I don't want my arm to be in a cast.
- [50:09]
A
Oh, that's so good. I can't wait to go and try. There's so many things in here. I'm going to try. I feel like I have your book ready to be written when you aren't ready to publish it. Just ask me for the notes because I either take them on the laptop or this pad is full of. From each episode, I take notes. Okay. Incredible. Incredible. All right, so the last thing we're going to talk about is the connection of bullying and signs. I'm most interested in signs of when a child's might be bullied. It's not guaranteed that they're bullied if they're doing this or that. What does it look like? I'm sure. Do you work with.
- [50:52]
B
Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's definitely. And there's so many statistics for this of, like, kids that have been bullied. And like, the national center for education says about 20% of students ages 12 through 18 report being bullied at school.
- [51:08]
A
20%?
- [51:09]
B
Yeah. And then about 20% of students report being bullied online. And in my experience, that's been the bigger issue. Like, I've definitely worked with kids that are bullied at school, but I feel like the Internet and social media, Snapchat, all these platforms have created more online cyberbullying type things, which is dangerous, which is super dangerous. But then even kind of underneath that, I feel like social media has created not necessarily bullying, but it's this feeling of kids being always left out. And that, to me applies to, like, a bigger percent of the population than, you know, like, the 20 that's being bullied. Like, yes, that's a definite thing. That's a problem.
- [51:49]
A
Yeah.
- [51:50]
B
But I would say every kid I talk to has that feeling of being left out, being excluded, being not invited to this party, but all their friends were, and they see the pictures on the Internet picture. Everybody had fun. And so that's the bigger thing. Like, how do we help our kids learn to navigate that? Because I don't think social media is going anywhere. You know, I don't think Snapchat's going anywhere. Like, it's part of culture. And so how do we help our kids navigate disappointment? Navigate not always being included? Navigate being left out? Like, that's the bigger issue, I think. And that will apply to all kids. That's not just going to be.
- [52:27]
A
And how do you even attack that?
- [52:29]
B
Well, I mean, how do we handle it as adults? Because we're not always invited places. Right. Like, right. And maybe discussing with them. Like, yeah, a bunch of my friends got together, but I wasn't included on that thing. And yeah, that, that hurt my feelings, but I'm still going to be friends with them. And you know, like teaching, modeling, like healthy disappointment, healthy relationships, showing that you're not invincible. I think so often as parents, we feel like we have to be like, perfect, have it all together and never show our kids our human side. And I don't think that's right. You know, like, they need to know that you have feelings, you have emotions, you feel left out. And like, this is how mom and dad handle it. And so we want to help you. We want to listen to you, we want to attune to you. Practice that active listening and teach them how to handle those disappointments. Because they will happen. It's not if they happen, it will happen.
- [53:18]
A
And then the other part is you hope that they're sharing it. Like, that's a good thing that you're sharing it. I love it. Keep sharing it.
- [53:24]
B
Yes. I want to help you with this.
- [53:25]
A
I want to listen and don't beat it down. Embrace it.
- [53:29]
B
Don't shame like, oh my gosh, you wouldn't wanted to go to that party anyway. Or I wouldn't have let you go to that party anyway, or what? You know, whatever. Like how often we dismiss these things instead of saying, that really sucks. I'm really sorry. And those are some of your good buddies. I'm really sorry. They were not.
- [53:43]
A
Yeah, I'd minimize it. I'd say like, oh, it was. It wasn't out in the woods any.
- [53:49]
B
Or it wasn't as fun as you think it was. Or, you know, whatever. Like, how many times do we totally minimize that instead of just hearing their heart in that, like, yeah, they feel left out. Yeah, that makes them sad.
- [54:00]
A
If you want to feel left out, have a wedding. Or if you want to. Like when you get in that age where you start, why wasn't I invited to that wedding? Like, planning a wedding is impossible to include everybody. Or you have 7,000 people on your list.
- [54:16]
B
Same for a birthday party. And you know, everything else. Like, you're just. And so, like, they're gonna experience those things. So how do you help them learn to navigate those things?
- [54:25]
A
That is so, so, so helpful. Okay, what else? So in the. In the bullying category, I have two other questions after this that I just thought of. But in the bullying category, does behavior change for a child?
- [54:37]
B
For sure, for sure. Like, isolating, withdrawing, maybe depression shows up. But that's where you've got to be really protective online. You know, back to that. Like, we overprotect in the real world under protect online. So, like, how do you make sure that you are involved in that? Protecting them online, making sure they're not on things that they shouldn't be on. Don't let them have their phones in their room at night. You know, like, once they're old enough to have a phone, I cannot tell you how many parents I have told, please put your kid's phone in the kitchen. Don't let them have their phone in their room at 2am Nothing good is happening. You know, like, of course they're feeling left out or they're getting bullied or, you know, they're sending stuff they shouldn't. Like, they should be sleeping.
- [55:23]
A
Yeah. Right.
- [55:24]
B
They should not be on social media right now. And then, of course they're exhausted. Of course they can't focus in class. You know, like, it's this whole spiral.
- [55:31]
A
Like, yeah, would we focus? Can we focus?
- [55:33]
B
But that's back to where, like, you do need to be parent and you need to make those calls. So how do we protect them online? How do we help model healthy relationships?
- [55:43]
A
Yeah.
- [55:43]
B
In the real world?
- [55:44]
A
Yeah.
- [55:45]
B
How do we help them have relationships in the real world? You know, it all kind of goes together.
- [55:49]
A
Yeah. Okay, so what ages are common to see polling? Does it start. Do you know?
- [55:57]
B
Or maybe like, this says it starts around 12. And I would say that's probably too, like, okay, school, you know, like, and I've seen it happen younger, like upper elementary school. I think it depends on the school. I think it depends on, you know, just like the culture of the city you're in too. Like, it's just. It's different.
- [56:14]
A
Yeah.
- [56:15]
B
For every place. But I think around 12 is probably common.
- [56:17]
A
Okay. So if it's happening younger, it might be like something different.
- [56:23]
B
I mean, it. Kids are mean. Yeah, yeah. Kids can be mean for sure. You know?
- [56:30]
A
Yeah.
- [56:31]
B
And honestly, it kind of depends on your definition of bullying too. Like, some parents are, like, hyper with that word, and, you know, somebody said a mean thing to my kid. They're being bullied. And then other people are like, never, never would call it bullying. And you're like, no, that's. That's probably in the bullying category. So it's.
- [56:48]
A
It's a spectrum. Yeah. Okay.
- [56:50]
B
But I think around 12 is probably the most common. But I've seen it happen younger in elementary school, for sure do.
- [56:55]
A
I remember reading an article and I don't know if it's relevant, so I'm going to ask the expert. And it said, if your kid all of a sudden doesn't like going to a place that they liked going.
- [57:07]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [57:08]
A
Can that be one of. But not the only thing that's happening?
- [57:11]
B
Yeah, that could be a thing, but it could also be a learning issue. It could be a friendship shift and, you know, like, they. Their best friend suddenly started hanging out with somebody else, which wouldn't fall into the bullying category, but still would be a social, you know, issue. So, I mean, there could be many things, which I think is why it's so important to talk to your kids and.
- [57:29]
A
Yeah, get.
- [57:31]
B
Get to know them.
- [57:32]
A
Start. You just have to start, like, getting involved and then other doors will open. But if you're not, I just think, like, yeah, I don't know. When we were kids, nobody was talking about any of this stuff. It was like, get on the bus, go to school. Don't ask why. It's because I said so. And then come home and do what I say. Right. And then it was, you don't have any emotions. Those are just. We don't have emotions.
- [57:55]
B
Right.
- [57:55]
A
If you want to get mad or.
- [57:58]
B
Like, you're allowed two emotions. Yeah.
- [58:01]
A
Yeah. There you go. Right?
- [58:03]
B
That's it.
- [58:04]
A
All right, so we'll shut the door on bowling. It's just a. It's terrible. I hate even reading anything about it. Like, it never mattered. I never cared about that word before having kids, but now kids, it's like, oh, to think of that happening.
- [58:19]
B
Well, I think it's important to get to know your kids friends too. You know, like being engaged and intentional.
- [58:25]
A
And like, and their parent, like, in.
- [58:26]
B
Their parents, like, who are they spending time with? And, you know, not just trusting because they're at the same school or whatever, that they're on the same page with you.
- [58:35]
A
Right. Okay, great tip. I love that. So you hear the phrase, we're coming out of bowling now. So you hear the phrase, but times are just different now. Are they?
- [58:51]
B
Well, we referenced something from the Bible time. Like. Like some things don't change. Human nature doesn't change.
- [58:58]
A
Yeah.
- [58:59]
B
You know?
- [59:00]
A
Yeah.
- [59:00]
B
And so I think people are people and hurt people tend to hurt people.
- [59:07]
A
Hurt people Tend to hurt people. Wow. Okay.
- [59:10]
B
You know, I think that's why it's so important to work on those steps to create secure attachments. So, yes, maybe things are different. Like, we have social media now. We didn't have that when we were kids. Like, there are different factors.
- [59:22]
A
Yeah.
- [59:23]
B
But some things that we had as kids went away and new things replaced it. So, I mean, things are always changing.
- [59:29]
A
Okay.
- [59:29]
B
I just don't know if it's like so much worse now than it was then or, you know, all these comparisons. Like, I think we live in a broken world and it was broken 30 years ago and it will be broken in another 30.
- [59:42]
A
In another 30. And that's not going to change.
- [59:44]
B
No.
- [59:45]
A
Okay. So I just think of like the scenario of I'm gonna let my kids go far off, maybe not even know where they're at pre driving. Like, I'm talking 6 to 12ish somewhere in there. Like, head out. I know for us it was head out for the day. We didn't have to say where we're going and be back for dinner. And we would go places that I think back of we were living on the edge some days, truly living on the edge. It's like, wow, if my parents only knew. But I didn't know that back then. I just thought, I'm being a kid. So today, like, and you were learning.
- [60:23]
B
Risk and you were learning.
- [60:24]
A
Oh, yeah, risk management and all these things and getting hurt and how and. Yeah, all of it.
- [60:31]
B
Decisions.
- [60:31]
A
Yeah, all that stuff. So now I think of letting my kids do that. Right. So now I'm a dad, I let my kids go. And just like, if I said be back for dinner when I say our time's truly different now, like, we have to worry about different things today. Right. I think you have to worry about kidnappings everywhere.
- [60:53]
B
Well, yeah, but then you also have to worry about the people that'll call defects on you if you let your kids do that.
- [60:59]
A
See, so it is like the differences are too big.
- [61:03]
B
That is different.
- [61:04]
A
They're game changers. Like, if that happens, I think there.
- [61:07]
B
Was more a culture of neighbor and like neighbors looking out for neighbors and stuff. And I don't know if that.
- [61:13]
A
That still exists now. It's almost like, what can I find wrong? That's the neighbor mentality. It's like, what are they doing wrong? Yeah, where can I call that? Whatever.
- [61:23]
B
So that is different.
- [61:25]
A
Yes.
- [61:25]
B
So you have to learn how. You have to figure out how to teach your kids risk and things. But maybe not the same as when we were Kids, that's a struggle, you know, like, how do you let them learn autonomy and how to make healthy decisions and practice healthy risk without you being there right there all the time?
- [61:46]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [61:47]
B
But then you also don't want defects called, you know, because you're not watching them.
- [61:51]
A
Right. Like, and they're too young to be, like, out hanging up off a tree three miles from your house. Right. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Best age to get a phone. Is there any studies on that? Any data? Is it hard and fast or is it every kid's different?
- [62:10]
B
I.
- [62:13]
A
I know I'm asking from the other side. How can I tell my kid that they can't get one till they're 18? But.
- [62:20]
B
But yeah, a lot of. A lot of studies are saying, like, 16, at least for social media, is it okay, like, when you learn to drive, needing a phone?
- [62:30]
A
Yeah.
- [62:31]
B
We currently have a flip phone for our house. That's a household phone that we can leave at home with our kids. And it doesn't have, you know, social media or access to any of that stuff. So, like, if I need to run a quick errand, I have a flip phone I can leave that. I can call my kids if I need to. But it is purposely not a smartphone.
- [62:53]
A
Where do you. Just curious, like, do you learn that from a book you read or, like, where did you learn it? That's so awesome.
- [63:00]
B
Well, I just don't want all the technology stuff. I'm not totally anti technology, but I'm definitely not super pro. All the technology stuff.
- [63:11]
A
Yeah.
- [63:11]
B
So try to be more in the middle. But, you know, the flip phone, we had to ask. We had asked for it and we had to pay more money for it, which is hilarious. Like, a iPhone would have come with our plan.
- [63:21]
A
You got to be kidding me.
- [63:23]
B
We had to pay extra for a flip phone, but my husband and I, we wanted to do that, so that's what we did.
- [63:29]
A
Oh, wow. That's incredible. Just to have a phone.
- [63:35]
B
Hilarious.
- [63:36]
A
And there's no capabilities on it to go online, no, nothing. It's just a phone.
- [63:39]
B
You can text and you can call.
- [63:41]
A
And you can call. That's an awesome tip, though. I love that. Okay, cool.
- [63:44]
B
So that was our way to kind of, you know, practice a little more autonomy. We could leave our kids home to run a quick errand or something. We have a middle schooler who can be in charge, you know, for a little bit, but we didn't want to leave a phone that has access to everything.
- [64:03]
A
Right? Yeah, yeah, it makes perfect sense. Okay, last question. Unless you have anything at the end that you feel I missed or big topics. But you're going to come on again. I'm letting you know nicely that you politely that you're going to be on for multiple episodes because I have episode. You were right. You said the six questions that we had was like that might even be too many. Now I see why. So each one of those can be its own episode. Oh, my goodness. All right. The last one's really hard. You didn't have it on your list. I didn't send it to you.
- [64:38]
B
Okay.
- [64:39]
A
I didn't send it to you. I just thought of it through this and I'm approaching it from the point. My background was all guns and I was an extreme gun safety enthusiast because it was of my living.
- [64:57]
B
Yeah, right.
- [64:57]
A
My job. So I learned gun safety from the best of the best of the best gun safety. We're in different times now. So this isn't about the use support guns or not. I think everybody out there knows that. I am not asking your opinion on that. I want to know first question is, I send my kids off to a home.
- [65:24]
B
Yeah.
- [65:25]
A
Do you hear in your practice, do parents even have it on their radar to know that they might know the people a little bit. But did anybody ask like do you have guns in your home? And that's not a yes or no. I'm not saying to my kid there, if there's no. If they're. Unless there's no guns, are they locked up? Do you hear that?
- [65:47]
B
I mean, I think that would be a great question, especially if you suspect that that's a person that would have that. But I've not heard anybody like asking that question.
- [65:56]
A
Okay, so let's use this right here. Let's use this segment to let everybody know to just ask the question because it is insane what's out there. The dad's off to work. For whatever reason, he believes a gun should be loaded on or in his nightstand. Right. Forgets one day. It only takes one day out of 50 years. One day. That's it.
- [66:23]
B
There's a kid yesterday that found a gun in his dad's car. Died. It was on the news yesterday.
- [66:27]
A
Oh, here. Okay, here. So what happens? We watched a video this. I get crazy, crazy goosebumps. We watched a four year old, they put guns in a room and put unloaded, obviously guns in a room. Cameras watching it to see how the kids engage with the weapons. They need to study this stuff. Right. So what does the kid do with a gun? I wish I brought one here. On the show, it's obvious. They pick it up and the way that they hold it first is to press the trigger this way so the barrel is faced up. Yeah, that's just what kids do. I'm talking four year olds. I watch it with four year old studies. That's how they engage. They don't point it because of the weight and the way it holds. It's this way. So it takes one chance to run out the door and forget that your gun was loaded, which. That's a different episode for a different day. Gun safety, I just think the point of this and I was curious to hear if that's in the checklist. No. So let's use this to say, like, if your kids, no matter who it is, engage that question.
- [67:38]
B
I think that's a great. Ask the question.
- [67:40]
A
If they lock their gun up, because you know what it might do. It might have the parents go, why do we have to lock up? I'm not even joking. Like, I'm serious.
- [67:49]
B
I believe you.
- [67:50]
A
Like, some people think that having it on a nightstand is the safety. That's not the safety. That's not how that was designed. And that's not going to keep you. That's false security. Right. So as we talk about the kid thing, like, okay, it's the, it's the. Know the parents. Like, like, we are so big on that. Just because again, where I came from, like, what is your protocol for the weapons in your home? I need to know that. And if I can help you with it, I would love to help you. This is not to judge you, to say, oh, you're doing the wrong thing with your weapons. Right.
- [68:23]
B
Well, and I'm big on asking about technology and you know, all the other things. Like how many times do your kids walk into a house and maybe they have the TV playing all the time and you know, something's just gonna pop on that you don't necessarily want your 3 year old to see.
- [68:36]
A
Yeah.
- [68:36]
B
You know, so everyone has different rules. And you really do need to know where you're sending your kids and what their family culture is.
- [68:45]
A
Yeah. Cool. Wow. So that was an out. That was 90 minutes. I can't even believe it. I don't. I feel like I didn't even ask you anything because I have 19,500 more questions. But guess what? That's. I'm curious as a parent on all this stuff, so hopefully you'll come on for more episodes. So I love it. Thank you. And is there, is there anything you feel that just like burning desire, you want to say kind of.
- [69:18]
B
No, I think we covered a lot.
- [69:19]
A
We covered it. All right.
- [69:20]
B
I think we're good for now.
- [69:21]
A
So thank you for your time and thank you just, like, for your willingness, vulnerability, openness to talk through these things. This is so helpful. Helpful for everybody. Absolutely grateful for it. Thanks.