Ep. 46: MLK Protege, Bloody Sunday Survivor

Summary

🎙️ Interesting Humans Podcast – Episode 46: MLK Protege, Bloody Sunday Survivor

Host: Jeff Hopeck
Guest: John Suttles
Release Date: March 24, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 46 of the Interesting Humans Podcast, host Jeff Hopeck engages in a profound and moving conversation with John Suttles, a survivor of the infamous Bloody Sunday march in Selma, Alabama. John, a dedicated civil rights activist and protege of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., shares his firsthand experiences, insights into the civil rights movement, and reflections on contemporary social issues. This episode delves deep into the struggles, philosophies, and enduring legacy of those who fought for equality and justice in America.

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Bloody Sunday: First-Hand Account

John Suttles opens the discussion by recounting the harrowing events of Bloody Sunday on March 7, 1965. At just 16 years old, John was part of a peaceful march from the church in Selma to Montgomery to advocate for voting rights.

Key Points:

• Preparation and Tension: John describes waking up excited for the march, only to be warned of the severe weather and the large presence of law enforcement at the bridge. His uncle provides him with an army jacket as a precaution, which now hangs in the interpretive center of the national park in Selma.

  John Suttles (02:00): "He reached into his closet and pulled out his army jacket... and it had a lot of blood, my blood on it, hanging in the interpretive center of the national park down in Selma today."

• The March and Confrontation: Despite knowing the risks, the group, including notable figures like John Lewis and Jose Williams, proceeded peacefully. Upon reaching the bridge, law enforcement ordered them to disperse, leading to tear gas deployment and violent beatings.

  John Suttles (05:13): "And when we kneeled down, they start throwing tear gas. It surrounded us on the bridge... they start beating us."

• Aftermath: John recalls being knocked unconscious and subsequently treated at a hospital without his mother's knowledge. He emphasizes the collective bravery and commitment to nonviolence that characterized the marchers.

  John Suttles (09:21): "That reality... they wanted to intimidate us that way... we knew somebody is going to get hurt."

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Civil Rights Philosophy: The Formula of Nonviolence and Self-Purification

A significant portion of the conversation centers on the philosophical underpinnings of the civil rights movement, particularly the concept of self-purification as taught by Dr. King.

Key Points:

• Self-Purification: John explains that self-purification involves removing personal hate and negativity to maintain a nonviolent stance, essential for the success of the movement.

  John Suttles (16:16): "Self purification... It did for you, it you realize that I have some demons that Jeff... don't have anything to do with why they're on my back."

• The Five Pillars of Nonviolence:

  1. Facts
  2. Negotiation
  3. Self-Purification
  4. Direct Action
  5. Dialogue

  These pillars form the backbone of effective civil rights activism, emphasizing peaceful methods and constructive communication.

  John Suttles (20:11): "There's a formula for nonviolent. It is facts, negotiation, self purification, direct action and dialogue."

• Application Today: John stresses the importance of these principles in contemporary movements, advocating for dialogue and understanding over confrontation.

  John Suttles (21:03): "You have to take the young people and give them the formula and how we did it."

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Historical Context: 1960s Events and Their Impact

Jeff and John traverse the tumultuous landscape of the 1960s, highlighting key events and their interconnectedness in shaping the civil rights era.

Key Events Discussed:

• 1963 JFK Assassination: John reflects on the national trauma and the subsequent unification of Americans in the face of loss.

  John Suttles (22:29): "To me, it was good times. Not in a morbid way, but just people came together."

• Civil Rights Act of 1964: The legislative milestone that legally ended segregation and discrimination, bolstered by the relentless activism of individuals like John Lewis and John Suttles.

• Voting Rights Act of 1965 and Watts Riots: John connects these events, explaining how unrest in places like Watts influenced and mirrored struggles in the South.

  John Suttles (34:08): "They believed that when the young people in California understood what was happening down south, they thought, let me go out and hurt somebody."

• MLK and RFK Assassinations in 1968: The loss of these leaders left a vacuum in the movement, prompting questions about the future of civil rights advocacy.

  John Suttles (52:33): "Who’s going to stop all this stuff? Am I safe to talk about who I am?"

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Reflections on Modern Civil Rights and Current Challenges

John draws parallels between the struggles of the 1960s and today's societal issues, emphasizing that the fight for equality and justice is ongoing.

Key Points:

• Enduring Challenges: Despite legislative victories, civil rights progress is cyclical, with periods of regression and renewed activism.

  John Suttles (61:27): "Things haven't really settled down since then. Been up and down."

• Impacts of Relaxation: John warns against complacency, highlighting that societal progress can be lost if not actively maintained.

  John Suttles (26:00): "America stood up and said, that's wrong. We're not gonna allow that to happen."

• Social Media’s Role: The platform has become a double-edged sword, facilitating both positive dialogue and the rapid spread of hate and misinformation.

  John Suttles (85:06): "Now it's out of control. Just like the garbage on the road."

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The Role of Voting and Civic Engagement

A recurring theme is the critical importance of voting and active participation in the democratic process.

Key Points:

• Empowerment Through Voting: John encourages listeners, especially the younger generation, to use their vote as a tool for change and accountability.

  John Suttles (32:49): "If you don't believe in the system, then you have to help your neighbor, your granddad, you gotta go vote."

• Civic Responsibility: Emphasizing that democracy thrives on informed and engaged citizens who hold their leaders accountable.

  John Suttles (78:38): "That's my money. Hands off."

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Influence of Social Media and DEI (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion)

John articulates concerns about the pervasive influence of social media in shaping public opinion and the implementation of DEI initiatives in contemporary society.

Key Points:

• Social Media’s Impact: The unchecked spread of misinformation and hate on social platforms exacerbates societal divides.

  John Suttles (85:27): "If we had tackled [social media regulation] then, now it's out of control. Just like the garbage on the road."

• Diversity of Thought: Advocating for DEI as a means to enrich discussions and bring varied perspectives to problem-solving, beyond superficial diversity.

  John Suttles (82:09): "You have to bring the people on. They have ideas that you can use."

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Legacy and Moving Forward: John's Messages and Truths

As the conversation wraps up, John imparts powerful messages aimed at ensuring the continuation of civil rights progress through truth, dialogue, and self-purification.

Key Messages:

• Truth and Verification: John urges listeners to seek the truth independently and verify historical accounts rather than taking words at face value.

  John Suttles (87:55): "If you don't believe it, go and dig it up. And it's there."

• Good Trouble: Echoing John Lewis’s philosophy, John emphasizes the importance of engaging in "good trouble"—actions that challenge injustice peacefully and constructively.

  John Suttles (59:25): "Get in some good trouble."

• Enduring Principles: The formula of nonviolence, dialogue, and informed activism remains essential for overcoming current and future societal challenges.

  John Suttles (60:49): "Dialogue and love and facts... negotiations... direct action."

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Conclusion

Jeff Hopeck and John Suttles conclude the episode with mutual respect and a shared commitment to advancing civil rights through peaceful activism and informed civic engagement. John's resilience and unwavering dedication to nonviolence serve as an inspiring testament to the enduring spirit of the civil rights movement.

Jeff Hopeck (89:05): "You're a living testament that we can... do not have hate. That's a miracle."

This episode not only honors the legacy of those who marched and fought for civil rights but also calls on current and future generations to continue the fight with the same courage and conviction.

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Notable Quotes:

• John Suttles (02:00): "He reached into his closet and pulled out his army jacket... and it had a lot of blood, my blood on it, hanging in the interpretive center of the national park down in Selma today."

• John Suttles (16:16): "Self purification... It did for you, it you realize that I have some demons that Jeff... don't have anything to do with why they're on my back."

• John Suttles (20:11): "There's a formula for nonviolent. It is facts, negotiation, self purification, direct action and dialogue."

• John Suttles (59:25): "Get in some good trouble."

• John Suttles (85:06): "Now it's out of control. Just like the garbage on the road."

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Additional Resources:

• Bloody Sunday Interpretive Center: Selma National Voting Rights Museum
• John Suttles’ Outreach: For more information on John’s ongoing advocacy and how to participate in commemorative events, visit the Selma Interpretive Center.

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This episode is a compelling exploration of courage, resilience, and the ongoing quest for equality. John Suttles' narrative not only preserves the history of the civil rights movement but also provides actionable insights for addressing today's social challenges.

Transcript

[Jeff]

Folks, welcome to episode 48. I'm calling this one a conversation that absolutely needs to happen. And I've got a good friend here, John Suttles. John, thank you so much for coming.

[John Suttles]

How are you? First off, to be here.

[Jeff]

Thank you. And we've got so much that we're going to talk about. So John is a Bloody Sunday survivor. And if you're not familiar with Bloody Sunday, I encourage you to start off, just. Just Google it. And there, there was a point in time where this was real, this, this was actually happening. And I know for me personally, it's so hard to get my brain wrapped around you, trying to do good, walking over a bridge. And this is where I want you to. Want you to pick up and finish that story. What was going on?

[John Suttles]

Well, like you say, it's. It's hard to wrap your head around it, but it is an experience in my life that always upfront and I. That Sunday, Sunday morning, I woke up with excitement and about going to Montgomery to talk to George Wallace, who was the governor at that time of Alabama. And I had. 16 years old, I had my little gear on, which consists of a windbreaker, thinking, I'm ready.

[Jeff]

Yeah, you're ready.

[John Suttles]

And my uncle, he was living in a bungalow, he was living on the left, I was on the right with my mother. And he came out and he called me, oh, boy, oh, boy, where you going? So I'm going to Montgomery, talk to Wallace about this boating thing. He said, oh, yeah, you tell him. I said hello. And so it started in a conversation like that. And he said, well, you're going to need a bigger coat for that.

[Jeff]

Wow.

[John Suttles]

And if you're going down Highway 80, you're freeze with that windbreaker.

[Jeff]

Okay. Yeah, got it.

[John Suttles]

So he reached in his closet and pull out his army jacket that he had fought in the north and South Korea war and told me to wear that. And man, did it feel good when.

[Jeff]

I put it on. Yeah. Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And it had no blood on it from the Korean War, but at the end of the day, it had a lot of blood, my blood on it. And is hanging in the interpretive center of the national park down in Selma today.

[Jeff]

It's there right now.

[John Suttles]

Right now.

[Jeff]

Wow.

[John Suttles]

And when. When I talk about it, back it up a little bit. We start off that morning, John Lewis, Jose Williams and myself and all, all kinds of people, students. And we, we gathered in the church front yard there. And. And so we started off and somebody had came and told. We had had a report to say there's a lot of state troopers and sheriffs and policemen at the foot of the bridge. And John and Jose said, well, we're still going. And so we snaked our way through the city to the bridge from the church. And it was crispy morning, so to speak. Kind of cold for Alabama. Their standards. And we get to the top of the hill, then we could see the troopers and they blue and gray and the, the sheriff General Clark and these guys, they always dress kind of intimidating, if you know what I mean, With a lot of accent on their dress.

[Jeff]

Sure.

[John Suttles]

And, and so we marched on and mind you now, we knew that chances are somebody is going to get hurt. We knew that.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

But it, it didn't outweigh the purpose.

[Jeff]

Because it was peaceful.

[John Suttles]

Yes.

[Jeff]

What you were doing was peaceful by every, by every standard.

[John Suttles]

Peace all the time.

[Jeff]

Okay.

[John Suttles]

Non violence was preached at all of the mask meetings. And if, in fact, if you couldn't be, couldn't rise above, couldn't do that, self cleansing and be nonviolent, you're not going to come in and wreck this movement. That was our thing. And when we got to the well going down to the foot of the bridge, the air just stopped moving. I don't know if you've ever been in a situation where things get so thick. The air.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And you knew that this time is sort of different, you know, and, and we all, we were singing and we was chatting, but when we saw all of those troopers along with the sheriffs and the local police, we knew this was different.

[Jeff]

Hundreds of them.

[John Suttles]

Oh yeah.

[Jeff]

Like hundred. Okay. And how many of you guys it was?

[John Suttles]

The news report was 600.

[Jeff]

600?

[John Suttles]

Yeah, yeah. And so we kept marching and we get down to the foot of the bridge and one of the guys, I think it was McLeod, who was the leader of the troopers, he said, I'm ordering you guys to disperse. There'll be no march today. You turn around and go back to your church. And we said, well, let us pray first. And by the time we kneel down, they had a strategy for us. When we kneeled down, they start throwing tear gas. And it surrounded us on the bridge. And no matter where you was located in, in the line of marching. Yo, yo. You was just in a tear gas cloud like. And it. Then they start beating us. If you try to get up and run from the gas, they would beat you, the possum and Davis on horses. And they had nice sticks about. I call them bats.

[Jeff]

Yeah. Batons or whatever. Yep.

[John Suttles]

And they beat us. And I was very, very close to John Lewis about from here to the corner of your studio there.

[Jeff]

20Ft.

[John Suttles]

Yeah. And, you know, they. They. I was down on the ground, John Lewis. You could hear young people screaming. You could hear old ladies screaming. You could hear people like myself screaming. And by the time I decided to get up and get some fresh air, it was, like, too late, because when I raised my head, a possumman hit me on the head, knocked me out. And next thing, one of those. Yeah, one of those sticks. He's riding a horse. Just riding. Coming by and just hidden. And you can hear the thump of the. The stick that he had. All of them had a stick. And you can hear the thumps on the heads. And John Lewis suffered it more than anybody because he was. He was the good trouble chief, so to speak.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And they knew it, and so they singled him out and beat him, and just like they beat us, but once they knock you out. And when I came to, I was at the bottom of the bridge and there was a hearse. Not a. Not a ambulance.

[Jeff]

Ambulance.

[John Suttles]

Yeah. And they threw me in the back of the hearse and took me over to a Good Samaritan hospital where I received treatment for stitches and. And intoxicated with tear gas. And so that's how that morning went. And. And my mother, she never knew about it. She would have held me back had she known that I was potentially going where I may not come back home.

[Jeff]

Yeah, for sure. The second after she. The second after you get hit, a couple seconds after that, does it cross your mind, I wish I didn't come here?

[John Suttles]

No. Okay.

[Jeff]

That's the power of this. What did cross your mind?

[John Suttles]

Am I going to die here, really?

[Jeff]

At 16.

[John Suttles]

At 16. I know, right. But that was the reality. Like you said back in those days, that's exactly what was going on. And they knew it. The enforcers, the sheriff, the posses, and the highway patrolmans, they knew what they was, what to be expected. They wanted to intimidate us that way. And, you know, every day they had a new way of intimidation. But we was at a point that, you know, Bring it. Bring it on.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

You know, including death.

[Jeff]

How many people died there?

[John Suttles]

None, thank God.

[Jeff]

None.

[John Suttles]

None.

[Jeff]

Good.

[John Suttles]

But John Lewis almost lost his life. As you know, he suffered from a terrible concussion.

[Jeff]

Concussion, right. And that's John Lewis, the Congress, the Georgia congressman.

[John Suttles]

Right, yes.

[Jeff]

Just so everybody has a. Yeah, Just so everybody knows. Okay, so. And you were friends with him at the time?

[John Suttles]

Yes.

[Jeff]

You guys were about the same age and.

[John Suttles]

Yeah, he was. He was about four years. He was in, in school.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

He was like 19, 20. You know, I was a little bit.

[Jeff]

At most a little bit older.

[John Suttles]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And that was the attraction for all the young people because we, the older people was with Dr. King organization.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

SCLC and the younger people was with Student Non Violent Committee. And that's the one that John Lewis was heading up.

[Jeff]

Yeah. Okay. In our, in our pre. Interview, you opened my eyes. So I'm, I'm learning as much today as, as I think a lot of other people out there because I, I really did not know the difference of some of these terms. So you, you said civil rights is not what a lot of people think it is.

[John Suttles]

Right.

[Jeff]

So what is civil rights?

[John Suttles]

It's all about. It's got so many antennas to it. You know, you have. It's about gay rights, it's about white rights, it's about black rights, it's about white lives matter, black lives matter. It's about America. And you know, we, we grow from mistakes and we, we try to. Try to be there when a big mistake happened. There's a lot of people that take upon themselves, this is just how America works.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And it doesn't have anything to do with color, and they take it upon themselves like myself. And there's something I can do to help my fellow man. There's something that we all feel when our citizens are attacked, whether it's verbal or physical. I had this conversation with you before, and when that happened, people of all races, all colors, all, all they come together. And it's a great thing that America is, is just. We still growing.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

You know, and I know that at some point it's going to be all right, but you have to go through these growing pains. And some people will say, well, John, that's not growing pains to go through what we're going through. But yes, it is. If you, if you, if you look at it and you think about it being such a young country, we go through these growing pains and then you have people with these big ideas, they come and want to make it another way. It's not, it's not going to ever.

[Jeff]

Right.

[John Suttles]

It's going to be what we want it to be.

[Jeff]

Yeah. Did we learn from it? Did we learn from this?

[John Suttles]

We did, but you know what we did, we, we sat down and got too comfortable. You say, oh, John, going to be all right now.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

Oh, Jeff, going to be good.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

No, Chris, Chris is going to be all right because, you know, Chris went out and did all of that and, and everybody recognized that that was wrong. And, and now we have a law to do that and da, da, da. Yeah, but you can't relax because we are such an open space and ideas and we encourage intelligence here in America. Ideas. And so when that happened, it bring in different attitudes and people have a right to have an attitude about whatever they want to talk about. So says my grandmother way back in the day. But yeah, that's, that's, that's basically what civil rights is, is all about, what you want to be remembered of and how you say hello to your neighbor, how you walk down the street and you see John or Chr come in and you decide to do some body language that everybody know when you go to the other side of the street, oh, you got some issues. Somebody got issues.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And I bid you, if you would just keep going and handling your business. Yeah, it's going to be all right.

[Jeff]

Incredible. You talk about self purification. My mind, I don't say this a lot, but my mind is blown. And the posture you have towards it, the story's incredible. Tell me where that came from, this concept of self purification. Because I would think I'm sitting here with somebody who has so much hate and that's not the case.

[John Suttles]

Correct? That is.

[Jeff]

Tell me about it.

[John Suttles]

You, I, I remember you. The, the night that Dr. King came back into Selma after we had got beaten up and he was, he invited me over to a home that was on the west side of Selma where he was staying. And we were sitting there talking and I had this big old white bandage on my head. It was just humongous. He said. I told him about the story of my mother. I told him about my, my mother emotions and, and she did not want me to even be at this mass meeting tonight. She did not want me participating in the movement anymore because I was the baby of the family. Right. So mother is very protective of all her children, especially the baby.

[Jeff]

Sure.

[John Suttles]

And so he, he understood that. And, and then we, we, we got on to the non violent thing and because I was telling him, my brother, when he saw me, he wanted to take all the bricks and he would, he would take a brick and throw it in a crowd. He wanted to go out and find somebody and hit him. A white person.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And hit him with a brick.

[Jeff]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Suttles]

And I'm like, no, we can't do that.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

Because I'm afraid for him now. You know, you go out, hey, sure, you know, and so we all have to be each other's caretaker that way. And, and civil rights is, is no different. We have to be a caretaker for your rights. You know, like if I, I often think if I see you surrounded in the neighborhood of, let's say, you know, the black neighborhood and people have some ill feelings and they want to hurt you, I would have to step in.

[Jeff]

Sure.

[John Suttles]

Because of who I am. And that's what that. Self purification. That's what that do for you. It you realize that I have some demons that Jeff. Don't have anything to do with why they on my back, Chris. Don't have anything to do with why they there. Let me, let me. That's what Dr. King and I was talking about. Let me go within myself. And if I choose to let them stay on my back.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

I have to get away from certain people in certain spaces.

[Jeff]

Sure.

[John Suttles]

And if I want to be part of this movement, I have to be able to be non violent. And that's what self purification. It attracted me because I was young, but, you know, I was one of the kids that liked to read and I would pick people like John Lewis, I would pick their brains. And you know, these guys was being educated in another level than I was. And I was interested in knowing the philosophy and, and what they felt about this. That. And I got an earful and especially that night on the. The self purification.

[Jeff]

Sure.

[John Suttles]

There's a formula for nonviolent. It is facts, negotiation, self purification, direct action and dialogue. You can't, you can't change anything. You can't do what you should do. If you, if you can't dialogue, then.

[Jeff]

This is what he taught.

[John Suttles]

Yes. A lot of people have forgotten about that. And this was part of his Montgomery I'm sorry, Birmingham jail letter. He talked about self purification.

[Jeff]

He did, yeah.

[John Suttles]

And he, and he was speaking directly to the clergyman and, and they wanted him to accept some stuff they wouldn't accept. And he suggested that maybe they need a little self purification.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And. And so those, those bullet points are. I try to share them with people. They work. If you, if you put them in motion.

[Jeff]

Yeah, yeah. So this is part of your message. This is what you're out there doing now?

[John Suttles]

Yes.

[Jeff]

Is teaching. Okay. Teaching this. That's, that's great. All right, I'm going to read off a list of things that happened in the 60s and then we're gonna. I want to go through and hear it. Hear it through your own eyes. So these are key dates. So in 1963, you have JFK assassination. 64, you have the Civil Rights Act. 65, voter rights. 65. Also Watts riots. Right, 65. Also Selma bloody Sunday, which is where you're. You're a survivor of that. And then two more. In 68, you have the MLK assassination, and in 68, you also have the RFK assassination. What was going on during that time? Let's go back to the beginning, the JFK assassination. What do you rec. What do you recall? What do you know about it? What, What. Where were you?

[John Suttles]

It was. To me, it was good times. Not. Not in a morbid way, but just people came together. Americans came together in the 60s more than people talk about.

[Jeff]

Really?

[John Suttles]

Yes.

[Jeff]

Wow, that's cool.

[John Suttles]

And okay. And the young people, that's why it came together, because of us all. People, everybody in America.

[Jeff]

So black and white, Black and white.

[John Suttles]

And it started whatever else, just like that. Just like that. White kids were saying, well, you know, I had problems with this guy over here when I was walking down the street. But you, you're not this guy. Let's you and I dial out. Let's talk about it. Let's. Let's grow our hair. You know, the hippies.

[Jeff]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

[John Suttles]

And. And so that. That period was amazing, and it was full of trauma. Like the Kennedys.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And Dr. King and all of that. But what's most important, I think more important than those that fought for those rights, lost their lives. And what they wanted is what happened for people to come together and start dialogue and start talking, start seeing. Seeing each other.

[Jeff]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Suttles]

With their own eyes.

[Jeff]

Right.

[John Suttles]

And listening with your own ears instead of having someone come and tell you, tell you. Because, you know, and I know if we start a rumor today and we go out and tell somebody on the sidewalk, and by the time it get downtown, it's probably been changed 100 times.

[Jeff]

Sure, sure. Wow.

[John Suttles]

And that's what the 60s.

[Jeff]

So what changed it all? What did it start? What was the thing? Who, who, like, who struck first or what struck first?

[John Suttles]

Well, I think because of how it was all twined together, especially down down south, we. I can say that and know that. That we struck first because we took more of the blunt of the hate and all of that and help people. Look, I'm not, you know, I'm not as bad as you think I am. You hear people say we got more in common than, you know, it's a fact. And so we had to convince them with our blood, sweat and tears, and I think we did. And. And then we got too relaxed and then people started hating people again for no reason.

[Jeff]

In. In what time frame? About.

[John Suttles]

I think at the 60s is when everybody was thought that, you know, it was okay to go and shoot somebody and. Or assassinate somebod. They wasn't for what you believe in.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And then America stood up and said, that's wrong. We're not gonna. We're not gonna allow that to happen.

[Jeff]

Sure.

[John Suttles]

And so it. It quiet down, and it rolled over to the 70s and the 80s, and the 80s is where things got lost and people start doing stuff that wasn't part of what we was representing.

[Jeff]

For example.

[John Suttles]

For example, you had intelligent people being. Well, let's say you had young people not knowing what we had fought for and didn't care. All they wanted to do is get theirs. I got, you know, I got to go out and do this. Yeah. And. And then the. The. The. The dope came on the scene, just like back in the 60s, the hardest thing we ever did. Well, we did acid and marijuana, but these. These kids, they doing all of the cranking, all the other stuff, and. And what you have to do is. Is if you can get them away from it. But that's what. That's part of the problem in the 80s, what happened there.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And. And those attitudes come from substance abuse, whether it's alcohol or drugs or whatever. And, you know, and everybody was into it.

[Jeff]

Yeah. With the JFK assassination, what were the theories and all that? What do you. What do you recall from. From.

[John Suttles]

Wow. That was a hard one. I was in school, and the teacher made the announcement and said, the president been shot. And we was like, whoa. Because we kind of. Kind of like young man was telling us today that all of the history. And he was one of the first ones and high up to recognize that these civil rights, human rights, and all the rights of individuals, we need to look at that more closely, because we are a country of a melting pot, and a lot of people come to this country to get away from all of that. And so that's why he was shot. I'm sure that was the reason. But it hurt our community really bad emotionally. And then we had to pick the pieces up and keep going.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

The Kennedys was. Was a friend to us, our community, and we had to get past that.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And it was hard.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

But we did. With the help of people like Johnson.

[Jeff]

Yeah. So he comes in, and then let's pick up there. So LBG comes in, LBJ comes in. Did you know right out of the gate what he stood for? Or was there a time of like, oh, boy, we might go backwards? What was all that about?

[John Suttles]

It was never a time like, oh, boy, we might go Backwards. But we did, though.

[Jeff]

But you did.

[John Suttles]

London being he. I don't think he understood it.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

I think that he was a great politician. He could look and see. Okay, this need to be done. I need to, you know, if I'm thinking about my legacy, I need to get this done.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And I think Dr. King helped him with that. So he and Dr. King became good friends, and so he grew like that, and he turned out to be one of the most significant players in civil rights.

[Jeff]

Sure. Because what happens next? What, what, what, what? The two big things that happened back to back then is civil rights and voter rights. So let's go right into those. Like, is that because of his work with Dr. King or how did all that play in together?

[John Suttles]

I think. I think it was a little of all of it. You know, like he. He must have learned something from the Kennedy.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And he learned something from King, and he had some. Some influence on himself. I mean, with him. He used his capable capabilities to figure out a way to get it done with Dr. King. He didn't want it to, so to speak, but he was just like Lincoln.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

You know, if a good politician, if you. Well, I think if you're faced with some rhetoric and you wants to fix it and you recognize it, a good politician would figure out a way to get it done. A good person would figure out a.

[Jeff]

Way to get even more than a good politician.

[John Suttles]

Even more than a good. Yeah, absolutely.

[Jeff]

All right, so what happens now? Does voter. Voter rights comes back? Voter rights and civil rights. The Civil Rights act. Is this like, wow, we got it figured out now, and everything's just incredible. And this is a great. Is that what it feels like or is it. Were they just two things?

[John Suttles]

It was two things, but that's it.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

You know, I think that, you know, like, people. The voting rights is A lot of people say it's under attack, and I believe that to. To a point. But I also know that if. If you want to vote, if you understood what the vote is all about, if you understand our civics and in this country. Oh, you. You go to vote.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

You know, and that's what I was. My message to the kids last week is if you don't believe in the system, then you. You got to help your nanny, your granddad, you. You gotta go vote. Because here's what the vote do. The vote give you an opportunity. If you see a street that need repair and it's been there for years, all your little life, and nobody is trying to fix that hole in that street, when someone start running for mayor, you have to figure out, okay, which one is going to fix this hole.

[Jeff]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And that's why you have to vote, you know, or which one is going to help my, my nana? Which one is going to help my granddad? Which one, which one is going to make my life better.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And then that's what you have to do. And when, when, when people look at it that way, they usually go and vote.

[Jeff]

They usually go and vote. And that's another big part of your message. So the voting part and then the self purification ML MLK thing, which is so incredible. All right. Then comes on the scene in the same year as the riots, the Watts riots.

[John Suttles]

Right.

[Jeff]

What's going on? What's going on there?

[John Suttles]

Well, I, you know, from history, it looked like people was kind of on the edge because rights was being threatened. And they thought, you know, Dr. King had took care of that. Them folks down in Alabama, when they got beat, they took care of that. And when all those clergymen came to Selma, Alabama and walked across the bridge, they took care of that. And when that young man, Jim, I forget his last name, walked 54 miles on one leg.

[Jeff]

Wow.

[John Suttles]

Yes. And happened to be a white guy, they took care of that. But what we did is pass the baton to you so you can finish the race. And they didn't do it. They dropped it. They didn't turn around to pick it up.

[Jeff]

And that's, and that's what we have. That's what we have. So what sparked all. What was going on out there in, in Watts and what was going on in Selma at the same time, when.

[John Suttles]

When, when they just like Black lives matter. When, when they was thinking that, hey, something ain't right here, we need to get this done. They thought maybe, maybe they thought that violence or confrontation, monologue instead of dialogue was what's the way to go.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

But it's not. It goes back to that self purification again.

[Jeff]

Yeah. Wow.

[John Suttles]

And you have to convince others. That's what we do. We, we try to help our fellow Americans to understand how I am, understand how this work, understand. Let me help you today.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

So you can live tomorrow.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

Independently.

[Jeff]

Sure. If you had to just take a guess, this stat is probably not out there anyway. But just if you had to take a guess while all this is going on in the country, it's so easy for me to sit and just go. It was, it was all black, all white, and 100% of both hated each other. But I can't believe that that would be the case. How. What was the percentage? Like, did you have white friends?

[John Suttles]

Oh, yeah.

[Jeff]

Okay. So if you had to throw a number out, was it like it was just half of the. Half of both, like high relation. Yeah. Was it like everybody wasn't. Everybody didn't hate it. The other side.

[John Suttles]

That's the way we got it done. Because everybody didn't believe in all that hate.

[Jeff]

Well, that reminds me of today. What's going on?

[John Suttles]

Same thing.

[Jeff]

Social media will tell you to hate it. I should hate you.

[John Suttles]

Right.

[Jeff]

If I listen to what my social media says, my posture towards you should be. I don't. I'm not even going to think about having you. Really.

[John Suttles]

Right.

[Jeff]

If I follow social media. So I want other people to know that. I want people listening to this to know that. That like they're just framing it up to try to create hate.

[John Suttles]

Yeah. Right.

[Jeff]

Okay.

[John Suttles]

Because that's all a man told me once. He said this, this guy was giving me a problem and in, in my personal space and I invited him out and only then when I took the posture like okay, if you're gonna get in my space, me and you gonna have to. Whatever.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And. And then he removed himself and. And I was really hurt because I was trying to hurt to help the guy.

[Jeff]

Yeah, yeah, sure.

[John Suttles]

And the old man said what. You know, a young man, he said that what you just experienced is some people's job. They get up in the morning and say, okay, who can I go and harass today? And that's the sad part about it. And you know, they're going to always. But they're not the mass of the people. There's. There's a little chunk.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

That get up every morning and say, well, let me go and do something to John today.

[Jeff]

Right.

[John Suttles]

I didn't like the way he looked at me yesterday.

[Jeff]

And then that example that you're given right there, that has market. It has marketability and dollars on it from the media standpoint. So that goes out to the media. That then takes the normal person like myself sitting here. Right. Go seeing it and going. Everybody's doing that. That's how everybody's acting.

[John Suttles]

Right. And so it takes on a different character. Right?

[Jeff]

Sure.

[John Suttles]

By the time they get to you is back. I mean and it can be. The burden can be so heavy for you to do something. You know, and if you don't have the ability to go inside and do that. Self purification. Get this off of me. I'm going to. You know, there's been many times. I'm not an angel, I'm just saying. Yeah, sure. If, if you think about it, you can get it done. You can. You. It's sort of like mess on your back.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

You know, and you have to shake it off.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And otherwise you're not going to have a good day, you're not going to have a good week, you're not going to have a good month. In fact, you're going to be downright miracle. And, and so you have to cleanse yourself of that, that little hate he just put on you or she put on you. You have to give that back to that person because that person don't understand. Yeah. And in fact, that person live. He got up this morning, right. Looking for you.

[Jeff]

Right?

[John Suttles]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

Because that's his job.

[John Suttles]

That's his job.

[Jeff]

That's his job. All right, I'm gonna, I want to come back to this. So we're. So, we're at 19. Were at the, were at the Watts riots.

[John Suttles]

Okay.

[Jeff]

And from my understanding of it, Selma was like a little a snapshot of what the riots in Watts were. So that was a, that was a massive event for you guys, but small as it relates to time. Right. That was one day.

[John Suttles]

Right.

[Jeff]

But then Watts, what did that communicate back to you all?

[John Suttles]

Well, what it did is flipped it. Right. They believe that when the young people in California understood what was happening down south, they say, well, the heck with that. Let me go out and hurt somebody. If, if everybody is about hurting someone. Yeah, let me have my little peace. And that's what happened. Let me, let me go and steal these, these sneakers. Let me burn this building down. Let me. Let them feel some pain. Whoever. Them. Yeah, yeah. Whoever they are.

[Jeff]

Yeah. And what was, what actually explain what, you know of the, the riots, the riots at Watts. What was going on?

[John Suttles]

That's, that's, that's what I know. I, I know that they felt like we was under siege down in the south and white people was. At any point they wanted to take a life, they can do it. And they would put you in jail for nothing. So the media would take those and run them to the headquarters and flash them across the country. Right. So people will see him. Like you were saying, that's it. And, and so, and, and that was ratings for them, you know, and without thinking, hey, wait a minute, how is this going to affect John? And that's the way it is today too, you know? Right. And it just. When you, they sit there, they run. They run a negative story, real negative, and they do it with a smile now. I'm like, come on, Buddy, you can do better than that. You don't have to smile. You can tell the story without smiling. You don't have to endorse it. And that's what was going on. And so when they got the news that Bloody Sunday was actually really bloody, or they was. We was in jail all the time. We was being beaten up all the time. And so they decided, well, I guess that's the way life is right now.

[Jeff]

So, folding the tent, so to speak.

[John Suttles]

Yes.

[Jeff]

Were you at that point in time, were you just when that, when all that's happening, did you say, well, we're. We're in trouble, or were you still fighting? What was your popular fighting? Okay, so you were. You're all in fighting since.

[John Suttles]

Since I was 13 and I am. I'm a senior now.

[Jeff]

So you still, you're still fighting. I love it.

[John Suttles]

I'm on the. I'm on the battlefield.

[Jeff]

You're on the battlefield. We all are. Right. So in nine, so in 65 now, the third big event which we talked about with Selma. So the significance in Selma is Bloody Sunday. Anything else big in and around that year in time in Selma. What was it like? What was life like?

[John Suttles]

Well, I look back on Selma during that period and I think about the spaces and places I was in and how I came out of it. And Selma was, It was a great town to live in. I mean, as long as she stayed away from that side that want to.

[Jeff]

Hurt you, was it g. Was it physically that side, like, when you say that side, like they're the people over there. Were the people over here?

[John Suttles]

No, just as long as you don't run into those people where they, quote, call me troublemaker, but on the other side, those are really the troublemakers.

[Jeff]

Right.

[John Suttles]

You know what I'm saying?

[Jeff]

But it's not everybody on that side and it's not everybody on your side.

[John Suttles]

So they would, they, they would get, get them some, some substance, beer, wine, whatever, and get in a pickup and. And just want to raise hell.

[Jeff]

And can you tell who those people were?

[John Suttles]

Well, they more or less was the, the crowd that or the people, the group of people that, that exists today. But we, we forget that day that I don't want to just put everybody in a box. But those type of people, like I said, the old guy told me, they are going to always be there. They get up every morning looking for something, and they have a chip, so to speak, on the shoulder. They may think that. Why are you. I, I put myself. I remember living in, In a space apartment and all the ladies, she said, she said, boy, take my garbage. No, ma'am, I live here. I do not take garbage. You probably should call the office.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And that was just her mental.

[Jeff]

Sure.

[John Suttles]

She see a black guy. Well, maybe you, you come to take my garbage out. No, ma'am, I, I, you know, I am not doing that.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

You know, you can call the office. And I did it with a smile. And next day I saw her, I asked her how she was doing, and it kind of surprised her that I would say that. But that's, that's the kind of stuff that gets not worked in. If you, if you do the formula and you get rid of it, you know, because this little old lady, you have to say, God bless you, you know, because you don't know. You don't know what you just.

[Jeff]

What did she respond to you when you said that?

[John Suttles]

Just looked at me and smile. Yeah.

[Jeff]

I mean, and, and from going to take my garb. From telling you to take our garbage out, I mean, that's a big. That's a big change.

[John Suttles]

That's a big change, isn't it?

[Jeff]

That's a big change.

[John Suttles]

It was always there. It was always there with the little old lady. She just didn't know how to express it. She didn't know how to come out of that, that, that little shell, that hate.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

Little, small place she's in.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And, you know, and believing in everything she saw on tv.

[Jeff]

Right.

[John Suttles]

And so it's here on the radio. Yes.

[Jeff]

So it's, it's, it's 100% learned. And I want to just be very clear on that. Like, you can't come out of the womb and hate anybody. Right. So. So you're learning in your life. There's no social media back then, news outlets, obviously, television, radio. Was there anything else happening? Were there other kind of movements or. How else did these people learn hate?

[John Suttles]

Well, you, when they, when they come around you, the haters, it's. You can almost see it dripping off. Honest. You really can you. I used to tell my supervisor in Minnesota, I, we, We were having political talks or hate talks, and I say, well, I kind of grew up with that. And I can, I can probably spot a guy a block away or a girl with some of that in her. Him on his shoulder. And that's kind of true.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

Because it's like living in an environment, for instance, if you live in an environment where there's harmful things, little critters on the ground, and you have to be careful where you walk, for instance, like a snake and tall weed. I grew up that way. And I'm more tuned in to the snake than people who live in the city, you see, because I deal with that snake every day.

[Jeff]

Yeah. So what. Yeah, what is it? What does a day look like? We'll get back into the timeline. But what does a day look like for you? Now, you said you're in the battlefield. What do you do? Speak?

[John Suttles]

I. Well, I promote my, my, my code every chance I get. I ask people to go down and, and when you get to Selma, make sure you go in the interpretive center and.

[Jeff]

Okay.

[John Suttles]

And check, check out.

[Jeff]

Can we find that online?

[John Suttles]

Yes.

[Jeff]

Where do, where can you find it?

[John Suttles]

At the interpretive center of Selma, Alabama. I, I don't know where. What part of that. That'll help you, because that interpretive center, but if you just look on the interpretive center in Alabama.

[Jeff]

Yeah, here it is. I got it. I got it pulled up.

[John Suttles]

Okay.

[Jeff]

Because we're going to link out to it. So. Yeah, here's an article. It made sense for John Settles to join in on the fight for voting rights as early as the 60s. Okay.

[John Suttles]

Okay.

[Jeff]

Oh, here's a great article. Okay. And then we'll find your thing, because I want to link to it. I think that's very special. And, and use it in. When we promote this, the social media. And you said that it's, it's. You call it a jacket, right?

[John Suttles]

Yes, it's. It's actually an army coat. And the kids in Alabama, they call it a raincoat and whatever you want to call it, but they did this documentary on voting, the little kids did. And they said. And the producer said, well, out of all you have seen, and who would you like to meet? Where's Mr. Suttles? And one year at the Jubilee in Selma, a little kid, I was standing, taking pictures with the coat for the people that came to the city. And the little guy, he said, he said, is that the coat you had on? I said, yeah. He said, well, how old are you? I mean, because he's like, whoa. You know, and that was, that's exactly what. Everybody in the room just cracked up. I mean, it was so innocent and. Yeah. And I'll never forget his face. Yeah, he was really serious.

[Jeff]

Sure, right.

[John Suttles]

You know, how old are you? I was telling the story about the coat and the Bloody Sunday, and. And he was like, whoa, you must be really, really. Oh, how.

[Jeff]

Oh, that's great. And that's March 7th every year, right?

[John Suttles]

Yes.

[Jeff]

So March 7th every year. That's a big thing that you do you go there? So I want to also let everybody know that. And I'm sure they can find plenty of information on.

[John Suttles]

Oh, yeah.

[Jeff]

Okay. Incredible. Wow. All right, so 65. Bloody Sunday's over. 68. Now the world gets. Gets absolutely thrown MLK assassination.

[John Suttles]

Yes.

[Jeff]

What's going. Where are we at? What's all that? What's.

[John Suttles]

Well, instantly you ask yourself, oh, my God. So. So who's going to stop all this stuff? Now you forget that you're part of it, so maybe you should jump in. And that's where people like myself come in. But you have this anxiety. Well, if we, when we get another leader, what is it going to be like? Who's. How is he going to handle this?

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

She.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And. And then you come to your. Your senses, so to speak, and say, I really don't need a leader. I've been told, like I was telling Chris, I said, you don't have to reinvent the wheel.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

You just have to keep it oil.

[Jeff]

Keep.

[John Suttles]

Keep it rolling.

[Jeff]

That's awesome. And that's one of your big key messages is what he taught you about the self purification. That's incredible. So what was, what was his actual, like, title, responsibility? What did he do during those times?

[John Suttles]

You said full time preacher. He was a preacher.

[Jeff]

Yep. But he, but he had another title. Right. Or another passion. I don't. I'm not even sure what. It's good. But he was a civil rights activist. Just activist or head of the.

[John Suttles]

He was. He was head of Southern Conference leadership.

[Jeff]

That's it. Yes.

[John Suttles]

Sclc.

[Jeff]

Sclc. There you go. Yep.

[John Suttles]

And he was also, you know, he was a Georgia boy. And. And so was John Lewis. He was Alabama boy. And John. John and I, we. We would always talk about the good times in, in the south there. And you know, the last time we was together, we hosted. I was helping John with the pilgrimage. There was a lot of kids come from California and all over the country.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

Just to see the formula, the format. How like the young man asked me that day, he said, he said, I figured everything out, but what I need is the formula. How do I do this? I know I can do it, but give me the formula.

[Jeff]

Wow.

[John Suttles]

And he was about 16. Yeah. My age when I got. And. And so my wife and I, we looked. It was like, whoa, these kids are ready. You just gotta show them he understand I don't have to reinvent that wheel.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

All I got to do is keep it oil and keep it rolling. Wow. Yeah. That's the young.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

That's where they at.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And people, like I was telling Chris, when those young people decide to make a move on you, best thing to do is move. You got to get out of their way because they're coming.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And I've been telling people that for a long time, and I know that they don't believe it, but if they keep living and people don't get it right, the young people is going to come and just like we did down in Alabama, my time.

[Jeff]

Yeah. What are, what are the big mistakes we're making now that we haven't learned from history?

[John Suttles]

They keep telling the story about how. How they did it, how they did it. And you talk, you know, most of the young people, they will leave you with the impression that they don't want to be bothered with you, but they really, really need you. If you sit them down and you realize right away you need me and you need to guide. Give them the formula. Give them the formula. That's what they need, the formula.

[Jeff]

All right, that's. That's awesome. So he. So you get the news. Mlk, dad, right? What's. What's going on for you personally and what's going on with your. I'm going to call it your, Your movement because you've been a fighter your whole life as you've referenced. So what's happening?

[John Suttles]

Yeah, I, I thought instantly, well, what's going to happen to my hometown now I was in Minnesota? What's going to. What's. What's going to happen to the people that Dr. King would automatically lift up just by saying, hello, white and black? What's going to happen to them? What's going to happen to the country? You know, if someone have that kind of hate or feel that way to kill Dr. King, what's really going on? You know, am I safe to talk about who I am and where I'm from and my, my beliefs and.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

You know, and, you know, is someone gonna be out to do that to me? So all of those things come across your mind.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And then you settle down and you say, okay, well, so be it. You know, I can't just sit back and not do anything to help other people understand what need to happen to make everybody okay and comfortable again.

[Jeff]

Big.

[John Suttles]

Yeah. And that's what we gave up. A lot of people don't want to take the time to do that, but we. We should, and we better, because it depends on our democracy. The democracy depends on us doing certain things at certain period in our life. And civics is one of those big, big, big thing. To do.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

Get involved. And John Lewis used to call it good trouble.

[Jeff]

Good try. Love that.

[John Suttles]

Good trouble.

[Jeff]

Good trouble.

[John Suttles]

Yeah. Get in some good trouble.

[Jeff]

Oh, I love that. Good trouble.

[John Suttles]

And when you get in good trouble, you got it. That's. That's what it is. It entails all of that that we've been talking about.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And a lot of people don't see it that way until, you know, like, my communication skills may not be the. The. The skills that. That person that would open that person up so he understand what good trouble is, but your communication skills may be the one.

[Jeff]

Wow. Yeah.

[John Suttles]

Yeah. And so when we all collectively try.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

To make it a better place.

[Jeff]

Sure. That's great message. Does anybody fully replace mlk? No, they just. They just can't. They just can't replace that kind of human being.

[John Suttles]

Exactly.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And that's probably good because like I say, it's. It's. We know what he left us with. Right. He gave us the formula.

[Jeff]

You have. The formula is.

[John Suttles]

It ain't about all that other stuff. It's about dialoguing and love and. And facts.

[Jeff]

Negotiations. Yes. So boom, boom. Dialogue.

[John Suttles]

Yes.

[Jeff]

Direct to action dialogue.

[John Suttles]

Yeah, direct action.

[Jeff]

Wow.

[John Suttles]

All right.

[Jeff]

So I'm sure there's a period of time then when maybe some stabilization happened. He. So MLK 1968, was it a year? Was it five years? Was it. What happened till you. There was stabilization again?

[John Suttles]

Well, you know, things haven't really settled down since then. Think about it.

[Jeff]

Okay.

[John Suttles]

Been up and down. It's been up and down. And, you know, you have somebody come along and say, well, we're going to do this. We're going to. We want to extend the voting rights. We want to extend this. We want. We want to do this for the seniors. We want. And they. They'll do it this period and the next period it go back up. It's right on. Right on the. The green board. You know, there it is. We got to deal with that again.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And. But see, and that's the beauty of it. You know, that's what I was telling you earlier. You. You never, ever get done. And that's why you have to take the young people and give them the formula and how we did it.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And. And if you take the formula, you can figure out how to do it for yourself, but you got to have the formula, which is you got. You got to get along, you got to talk to people. You. You got to live together.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

That's it.

[Jeff]

That's. That's a strong message. What happens in also in 68 RFK. What. What's going on then for again for you and in the community, what message does that send out?

[John Suttles]

Well, it is sent out to us, the. The black community, that everybody that was trying to help us rise up is gone. It's gone. People just decide that, okay, we're gonna kill that one. We're gonna take care of that and at a point come to you like, okay, so if that's the case, then let's. Let's get together again and see, see, could we make. By the masses of people.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And. And that's what's going on, so to speak now.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

The mass is always popular because people in America, we sit back and we watch because we don't want to be wrong about it. We always want to be right. Always. And those of us that do that.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And. And so the people are saying, man, it was surprising to see the senior citizens out in Arizona saying they want to talk to their congressman. I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. That's the job he told us he was going to do.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And he need to do it. And, you know they're going to hold you accountable.

[Jeff]

Sure.

[John Suttles]

That's what America do.

[Jeff]

Yeah. Have you been out speaking since, like, basically your whole life or when. When did you get into that? Schools and stuff like that. So you've been out.

[John Suttles]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

Schools. What do people mostly bring you on for the Bloody Sunday or just civil rights in general or something different?

[John Suttles]

Well, both of those.

[Jeff]

Okay.

[John Suttles]

And most people want to hear about the Bloody Sunday.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And the kids, they're. They're sort of that way, but they. They actually wants to hear about the formula. How. Why did. How did you do that? Why. You know.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

How did you feel when you was going to jail like that and when that guy hit you? How. How did you get back up and go back out there without. Yeah.

[Jeff]

Having. I mean, there had to be hate somewhere along the way.

[John Suttles]

Well, what it was is disappointment.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

Like, guy, why. Why are you hitting me? I mean, can we talk? I mean.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

You. You want to talk about it? You want to know why I'm here?

[Jeff]

Yeah. You know, right?

[John Suttles]

Don't you? You don't. I know you do, but, you know, but, you know, that's. That's. That. That pocket. I was telling you, get up in the morning and say, okay, well, let me see what. What kind of stuff I can get into.

[Jeff]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Suttles]

Trouble, but not good trouble.

[Jeff]

The bad trouble.

[John Suttles]

The bad trouble.

[Jeff]

The bad trouble. So. All right. Some general questions about that. That time in history. I mean, it's true. You'd have different water fountains. What? Like, wow.

[John Suttles]

That was.

[Jeff]

Was that just normal?

[John Suttles]

That was. That was like.

[Jeff]

Did you see a problem with that?

[John Suttles]

Oh, absolutely. That's, you know, like those of us that did the history and. And read about people and. And stuff, events and all of that, you knew it was wrong.

[Jeff]

So during the time doing it, you knew it was. I know you looking back, it was wrong. Yeah, but. But. But as you're doing it, like, you're in two different lines, two different fountains. Yes. You're like, this is so insane.

[John Suttles]

This is so insane.

[Jeff]

Did you ever see a day where you'd have one fountain that we. Everybody would drink together?

[John Suttles]

What's in that fountain? That got white. Only let me taste that. Is there something different in that water?

[Jeff]

Right, right.

[John Suttles]

You know, for instance, like my. My mother, she worked on the other side of town from the east. Selma. I lived in the east side. She worked for a white lady on the west side. And she was made. And she washed her clothes and ironed her clothes and cooked dinner. And she would come home. She had. She was asthmatic. Yeah. And. And one day she came home crying, and her feet was. She had her shoes off. And. And I was like, what's going on? Right. And so she told me that the bus was too full for her to get on, and there were seats up front, but the guy wouldn't let her sit down in the bus. She said, I'll stand. And he was like, the aisles are too full for you to stand. So she had to walk. And that just blew me away.

[Jeff]

How far?

[John Suttles]

At least four or five miles, you know, And I was like, oh, no, this. This ain't right.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

You know, it's worse than the water. It's. Yeah, but they all equally. Is not right. And. And so I got involved at that point. I got involved in the civil rights movement, and here I am.

[Jeff]

Did you get to know during the, like, during that bus. The bus sacred, we'll call it like the segregation, I guess, is what you refer to it as, Right?

[John Suttles]

Yes.

[Jeff]

When it was. Was. That was the same time as the water fountains?

[John Suttles]

Yes.

[Jeff]

Right. What other kind of stuff was happening there and what other kind of people did you get introduced to that were fighters for those causes to try to. Because there's a lot of key characters.

[John Suttles]

Yes, Right.

[Jeff]

During. During that time.

[John Suttles]

Yes, that was. I was always someone willing to put themselves in. In harm way to better other people.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And you didn't have to look very far.

[Jeff]

Right.

[John Suttles]

And we had a young principal, a school teacher. His name was Reverend. Reverend Reese. He was the one that stood up and. And demanded that the buses had to allow people of color, black folks, to come on and sit in the front. Dr. King used to tell a story about. Or don't. Don't the municipal and all the controllers, don't they know that if you want to keep a person down, you do not let him sit in the back and watch you drive the bus. Because guess what? Now he know how to drive the bus. He was seeing you. That was some of that purification, Dr. King. Yeah, he would. He would tell us stories like that. And. And you'll be. I went just like you. Okay.

[Jeff]

Like, incredible, right?

[John Suttles]

Yeah. Now I see you shifting. Now I see you turning. Now I see how you take the money. I see. I see everything from the back.

[Jeff]

From the back.

[John Suttles]

And when it's time for me to come up front is close up. And ironically, I drove bus in. In my career for the city of Minneapolis.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

That's something.

[Jeff]

Oh, wow. That's so cool.

[John Suttles]

Yeah. Right.

[Jeff]

Wow.

[John Suttles]

And did outreach for the state. Yeah. For the city.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And that's what I do.

[Jeff]

Now, who was. So who was pushing. Who was pushing to have that. Like, were there key people, key names out there that were pushing to have the bus thing broken up, the waterfront thing broken up?

[John Suttles]

Oh, yeah. You know, Dr. King, Reverend Reese, he. He invited Dr. King to some because he had dealt with Rosa park and in Montgomery. And so we knew all about that right there.

[Jeff]

Sure.

[John Suttles]

Like, okay, we know how to get it done because we got a formula now. You know, we have a formula that we use that they used in Montgomery. And it is such a brain burn for. For people to think 95% of your business is black, but you got 95 percentage of your bus empty, and they can't sit in the seat. And guess what they do. They stop riding your bus. And guess what? Your bus is sitting on the side of the road now in a pasture someplace rotten. And the bus. The bus system had never came back from that boycott. No way.

[Jeff]

What would happen if you just went out and started your own bus business?

[John Suttles]

I thought of that.

[Jeff]

You were going to just get crushed.

[John Suttles]

They probably do a parade for me or something, you know, because that is something that poor people need. They need public transportation.

[Jeff]

Yeah. Right.

[John Suttles]

And. And, you know, to get to and from.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

Especially older folk to go to the drugstore, to go to the grocery store, to go, you know, because the little ladies that live by themselves that the husband passed five years 10 years ago. And, and now she's taxed with doing. Taking care of the whole household.

[Jeff]

Yeah. For sure.

[John Suttles]

And she have to go shopping. She don't drive. And you know, all the people love to be independent and, and so now if you got a transit that helped them get to A, from A to B, they love it. You know. And that was part of the outreach I did.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

For the Twin Cities.

[Jeff]

So neat. What else? What other kind of stuff was going on like in that, in that decade, the 60s.

[John Suttles]

I. I know the 60s. Not only did it bring all the young folks together, but as I was talking to Chris earlier today, it bring the music, brought us together. The music. It was the music that was a song from the 60s. It was called it's the Music and it was the music.

[Jeff]

Right.

[John Suttles]

And you know, we, we all used to get together and hang out in a park.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

West bank of the University of Minnesota. And we hippie down. We was all, all just, it was just, you know. And the bad part about it, everybody thought it was all free love. No. It was just young people just happy to intermix.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And tell stories about themselves or talk about you, your family.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And listen to good music.

[Jeff]

Yeah. Do you have an all time favorite song ever? Something that means so much to you from those days?

[John Suttles]

There's so many. But.

[Jeff]

Or band.

[John Suttles]

I like the way Led Zeppelin and. And those guys. They. Gene Page and all those guys on, on the rock. And Jimi Hendrix on, On the R and B. I love some songs from Marvin Gay and, and oh yeah. James Brown and. And you know, Jerry Butler was more my mom's speed. But I was with Jerry. But I was.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

I needed me some Jerry Butler. Yeah. You know. And some Sam Cook. Right.

[Jeff]

Oh, yes. And.

[John Suttles]

And when we did. When he did that. Change is gonna Con. That was our anthem in, in the civil rights movement.

[Jeff]

Wow. Change is going to come. Still is. It's. Is it still being used? Oh yeah.

[John Suttles]

Everybody. Everybody that. Especially social issues.

[Jeff]

Huh.

[John Suttles]

When people think of a thing they want to. They want to play a change is going to come.

[Jeff]

I love that. Okay, cool.

[John Suttles]

And it is one of those songs that'll be around forever.

[Jeff]

Ever.

[John Suttles]

Yeah. And Judy Blue Eyes. I know a certain person know that one.

[Jeff]

Oh yeah. That's music, man. History and music. Those two. If you ever have a question, you just ask him. It's, it's, it's funny. All right, let's talk a little bit. A couple more things. So when I. We'll fast forward some of the stuff that we're Seeing today some of the things, the bigger issues, I'm going to ask because I just truly don't know. So it's probably going to be very, very basic stuff. So I want to get a good understanding. What are some of the lies today?

[John Suttles]

The biggest one is people in denial. That's a lie. Not anything you ask them about it. Like, well, you know, you want things I've sit here and talk with you about America. You always want it to be successful because if America do good, so do you.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And right now we have growing pains again. But that is to be not forever. And all we have to do is endure the pains right now because people that have, well, let's just say it, people that's being abused now is, is the people that need it more than. And they out to help other people. You know, you, when you get a guy that haven't been elected by us calling the shots, you know, how, how is that going to work for you? That's, that's not good. And, and now you got the seniors all bothered because you didn't come and talk to them. You didn't come and explain anything. If you're going to do something like that, you got to come and talk to us.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

That's our money. We put it in there. You didn't put it in there. You may be pretty rich, but you didn't put that money there.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And, and that's the kind of stuff, you know it. You don't have to be a politician to know that. You know that from all these years I've been living.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And I don't have to hate you to tell you that, that that money is my money.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

Hands off.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And I, I told my congressman and my senator how I wanted that money to be distributed and they are the ones that wrote the law and you can't go break the law like that.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And we are a land of laws. And boy, I tell you, if you don't believe, you go out there and hit somebody with your automobile and try to get away.

[Jeff]

Oh.

[John Suttles]

Citizens is going to arrest you. You know, that's what we do.

[Jeff]

Right. Right.

[John Suttles]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

What about, what about the topic of dei? It's like. Yeah, that's, I want to know though. I want to.

[John Suttles]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

I see both sides.

[John Suttles]

I, I Right. I, I mean, you know, you to say DEI is, is man, that's crazy. That, that's, that's sort of like we don't need water anymore.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

You need different thoughts at the table.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And however you're going to get them to the table. As long as you're not hurting anybody.

[Jeff]

Right.

[John Suttles]

Bring the people on. And let's see, John, what do you think about. We're thinking about engineering. We're, we're getting ready to put this, this brand new bridge.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

You know, on 400. What you think, how you got, you know, you got some intelligence about this. How do you think we should go about this?

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

How do you think we should take this to the community? How do you think? You got to have those. And, you know, everybody can't be the boss, so you got to have some people that have knowledge of what you're doing and taking it to the people. You got to take all of your ideas in America. That's the way we do it.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

You got to take it to the people and you know, dei, if that's what you want to call it. Call it that. But here's what I do know. You're going to need them sooner or later. Those people that you think that don't deserve to be where they at. Oh, you're going to need them because that's the way the world is. You. They have ideas that you can use.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And you have ideas that they can use. And who knows, maybe you put together a couple ideas from you and them and it'd be the best thing in the world for sure, you know.

[Jeff]

So is it more diversion of, or is it more like diversity of thought? Thought that.

[John Suttles]

That's what it seems like.

[Jeff]

I don't care who it is. I want diverse thinkers. Like, I interviewed a guy, Chad Foster, who's blind and became very, very successful in business. So he's blind. He's in boardrooms.

[John Suttles]

Right.

[Jeff]

His point is, I can't even see what you look like.

[John Suttles]

Right.

[Jeff]

Nor. So I can't care what you look like.

[John Suttles]

Hallelujah.

[Jeff]

I want diversity of thought.

[John Suttles]

Right.

[Jeff]

And that can be despite or because of or whatever, how anybody looks.

[John Suttles]

Right.

[Jeff]

Is that true or, or.

[John Suttles]

Well, that's, that's the part of that formula. Right.

[Jeff]

I would think it is.

[John Suttles]

Oh, of course it is. But you can't, you can't just move a person because the person looked this way or that way. You know, like, like you say the guy was blind, but he says he sits in the board meeting.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And he hear all these ideas.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And he don't have a clue of what you look like.

[Jeff]

Right.

[John Suttles]

And that dei. So I think that that's what board members probably should stand up and say. Hey, all I'm looking for is great ideas. I don't care who got them.

[Jeff]

Yeah. I don't care if you're pink.

[John Suttles]

Pink. Bring it, bring it on. Give me. Help me solve this problem.

[Jeff]

Right. Are we, like, are we losing? Like, are we off our rockers? At some point.

[John Suttles]

Like, at some point, we get too relaxed.

[Jeff]

I mean, you know, it seems like it's just getting.

[John Suttles]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

Crazier and crazier instead of stopping it. Yeah.

[John Suttles]

When it's. When there's a very young.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

We always want somebody else to do it.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And so when we. Today we pass that. That debris in the road, you say, well, somebody's gonna.

[Jeff]

Somebody's gonna grab it.

[John Suttles]

Grab it and throw it on the side.

[Jeff]

What a great point.

[John Suttles]

And then tomorrow you come back, it's still there.

[Jeff]

Right.

[John Suttles]

And this time it created an accident, so it got bigger.

[Jeff]

Oh, that is such a good analogy. I love that. The garbage analogy.

[John Suttles]

Wow.

[Jeff]

All right. What other lies are people hearing? Like, social media is such a disaster. It can be so good. But, man, when it's evil, it could be tremendously evil because a piece of content gets out there that could be completely false. And now everybody's got it like this because of the algorithms. What kind of stuff? Like, what kind of stuff do you hear that's just really causing divide? And it's probably not even right. Or could be just completely made up.

[John Suttles]

Yeah. You know, like, you say there's. There's a lot of the. I don't deal with the social media that much. I only look at it when. When it created some problems. And I tell my wife, I didn't even know you could do that. Right. Where this guy. Where is he getting out saying that? I even know if he could. Can he really talk about people like that? Can he lie like that on people? Yeah. And yes. And the answer is yeah.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And, you know, I think that you remember that was about. It was about 10 years, maybe a little. Yeah. Little longer than that. We suggested that we need to take a look at this Internet and maybe put some laws together.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And everybody got First Amendment. Oh, Lord, don't do that. I know, but we would have been smart, Right. If we had tackled that then. See, now it's out of control. Just like the garbage on. On the. On the road.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

It's out of control.

[Jeff]

Beyond belief. Yes, beyond belief. So I'm gonna. I wanna wrap up on this one. In order for the message, you said we just need the formula. Right. That's the main thing. Doesn't matter that the guy is gone. His formula lives on forever. So for the Formula to live on forever, There has to be truth associated with it. Right. Because we're in flooded with all this stuff. Hate him because of this. Okay, great. That sounds good. I want to focus on the truths. And I know there'll be. There'll be several or even many. So your legacy, your truths, you got a shot to speak at? I don't even know. It might be millions of people right now on a platform. Walk me through. What are the truths that the younger generation needs to embrace for this, to. For this hate to continue to go in the right direction?

[John Suttles]

Yes.

[Jeff]

Instead of the wrong direction.

[John Suttles]

Yes. I totally agree and I understand. And it's just like I told the students last week at high school. I said, I told my story and I told how I dealt with it, and I. I told about the people around me in those days, and we talked about the. The people that abused me physically. And I said, don't just take my word for it. Please do your research. Go and find out. Did John Suttles tell you the truth about whatever he was saying? And the kids, you could just hear, oh, they were coming, you know, and then all of a sudden, big smiles everywhere. So they had. Did they wait?

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

Wow.

[John Suttles]

So that's. That's my message. If I tell you it happened this way, I'm putting myself out and I'm telling you right now, if you don't believe it, go and dig it up. And it's there.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

No matter what, it's there.

[Jeff]

Wow.

[John Suttles]

And, you know, young kid, I was telling about the time I was interviewed by the FBI, and he said, wow. He said, what did they do? Did they put you in jail or what happened? I said, go and look it up. I said, it's on the FBI vault. It's in there. They got. Got my name next to John Lewis and Jose William and they talk about it. Was trying to interview me and I was on the march. So he was like, really? So I'm sure he's. He's satisfied now.

[Jeff]

Yeah. Incredible.

[John Suttles]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

Wow. Thanks for taking the time to come out and share all this.

[John Suttles]

Thanks for inviting me.

[Jeff]

It's remarkable. And I'll say you're so. You're a living testament that we can. Like I can sit here and sense that with all you've been through, you don't have hate. That's. That's like a miracle at the least to say, like the bare minimum. It's a miracle. I mean, it's incredible.

[John Suttles]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

So self realization. Self. I mean, I love this phrase. I just. I love it. I love everything that you're about. Self purification. Right. So the self purification. So I just can't wait to get this message out to the world.

[John Suttles]

All right. And that, that. That is you and I doing our thing and doing our part.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

And this crazy, crazy times right now.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[John Suttles]

People have to know that. There's people like yourself and me out here, you know, talking the truth. Real, they say. And the kids call it talking 100.

[Jeff]

Talking 100.

[John Suttles]

Yes.

[Jeff]

All right. Well, we talked 100. I want to shake your hand. It was incredible.

[John Suttles]

Thank you.

[Jeff]

Thank you for a great interview.

[John Suttles]

Appreciate it. Thank you.