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🎙️ Interesting Humans Podcast
Ep. 69: He Was 39, Healthy… Then the Doctor Walked In. [Patrick Knelly's Story]
00:59:39
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- [00:01]
A
This is Interesting Humans Podcast. My name is Jeff Hopeck, your host. Where we go past the highlight reel and into the moments that actually shape a life. The struggles, the mistakes, the pivots. Because the real lessons aren't found in success. They're found in everything it took to get there. Hey, guys, Jeff Hopeck here. Welcome back to another episode of Interesting Humans Podcast. There's a moment in life when everything splits into before and after. And for Patrick Connelly, our guest today, that moment came with a diagnosis that he never, ever saw coming. Esophageal cancer. In this episode today, we don't just talk about survival. We're going to talk about going deep inside the fear, the fight, the moments where nothing, nothing is guaranteed. Because sometimes the stories that matter most are the ones that almost never got told. So today's episode, there's going to be seven main themes. The first is going to be. We're going to talk about Patrick's life before. So what. What would it. What did it look like? What was happening in his life? Two is what. The moment, the diagnosis. And for cancer patients, I hear them explain the second. They remember the second vividly. So we'll talk about that. Three is the low, the fear. We're going to talk about when it was worse for Patrick. The fear, the uncertainty. Four is the fight. What did the treatment look like? How did it build and shape Resilience. Five is the shift. For some, there was one major perspective shift first. For others, there were multiple shifts that occurred throughout. Next is going to be six will be the after. So the life now, what does it look like? What's different in life? Seven is the message. The. The encouragement, the. The strength, the. The. The. The hope and healing message that Patrick wants to send out to everybody. So let's dive right in. Patrick, first, I want to say thanks for being on here. This is going to be an incredible episode. You reached out to me. I'm so glad that you did, because it's been a major theme throughout my episodes, and I probably have a. At least six to eight great cancer stories, and I know yours is going to be one of them here today. So let's dive right in. Talk. Talk to me about what life looked like before the big. The big diagnosis.
- [02:40]
B
Yeah, man. Thanks for having me, Jeff. Appreciate it.
- [02:43]
A
Sure.
- [02:43]
B
Yeah. You know, it feels like 30 years ago, even though it was six, but, you know, pretty. Pretty standard, you know, working class, just get it done kind of life, you know, at. Mike and I had two kids. My daughter was, I think, five or six and my son was like nine when I was diagnosed. And we were basically just running with them every day. You know, my mom used to, she had a comment, she called it turbo life. You know, you're like, the whole family's pitching in to just get it done. We were running a small family business and my wife had a job and you know, get up early, get to work, get the kids to school, run like crazy, go to after school activities and you know, crash into bed and just do it all again the next day. It was, it was about, you know, you know, I look back at it and it seems, seems a lot different because my mind works different now, which is, you know, obviously something I think we'll probably get into a little more down the road. But, you know, I, I feel like we were just going so fast and doing the things we needed to do on the day to day. But yeah, life was good. I mean, I'm not gonna lie. You know, I was very blessed and my family was, you know, happy and everything was going well. And I feel like we were just kind of cruising like, you know, everyone else, like the, you know, the joke about little house in the suburbs and two and a half kids and a dog, like kind of what we were doing. You know, I was a hard working guy and probably spent a little too much time on that, but, you know, I was, I was into my son's activities. He was a baseball player and, you know, coaching him and running with my daughter and she was a dance and all that, you know, pretty standard.
- [04:19]
A
But yeah, that was it. Healthy, I mean, healthy for the most part. Nothing for the most part.
- [04:26]
B
Yeah. My daughter had some little stuff when she was a baby, but, you know, it was all, you know, relatively quickly, you know, remedied. But yeah, no, everything was, was cruising, going along good. You know, we, we'd had some stuff. Everyone does, you know, my wife's mom passed away young, which was difficult for us, but you know, she had. When, you know, by the time everything went off the rails for us, she had healed from that and was doing really well. And, and yeah, I mean, you know, my parents were both alive and close and helping and her dad was doing well, so things were good. Things were very good.
- [04:56]
A
So. Yeah, no, that's, that's awesome. It's a, it's a great baseline. Helps us understand that there wasn't, there wasn't something going on your whole life or for an extended period of time. I just interviewed an F15 pilot who was in the most unbelievable shape of his life, training for the Thunderbirds. And, and he had a stomach pain. But he would call it a 2 out of 10. It wouldn't go away, but he had it for a long, long time. And finally they said, we need to get an approval to do an mri. They did it. It was one of the most rare, one of the rarest forms of cancer. It ended up being stage four. They come back in the room and go, you have 18 months to live. So in my point in saying that is you didn't have that. So you're so life's good, you're going, you're cruising.
- [05:42]
B
It was, yeah, I had some symptoms. I mean, it was shorter than 18 months, where, you know, I probably had about six months of symptoms. We knew something wasn't quite right. But I mean, yeah, I lived a relatively healthy lifestyle, you know, a good diet, not a smoker, not a heavy drinker, just, you know, pretty much surrounded by people in the medical community too, which will, you'll, you'll understand, like, as we progress here. That, that was a theme in my entire journey. I had some incredible care, which was pretty awesome. But we kind of all dismissed it because it just seemed like there's no possible way it could be something serious. You know, take a little. What was it?
- [06:21]
A
Yeah, like what was happening? What did. I want to get into that sort of the next phase now is.
- [06:25]
B
Yeah,
- [06:28]
A
yeah, yeah.
- [06:29]
B
So I, so the summer prior, like the spring prior to my diagnosis, I was already starting to have some symptoms. But the previous fall, I started to have a little bit of trouble swallowing some foods. But, um, you know, it would kind of just get stuck, drink a little water and send it down. And it was like a weird sensation that I, I, I wasn't even exactly sure what it was at the time, but I would put that probably the six to eight month prior range. And you know, a lot of time with men in their 40s with high stress jobs, you get some like acid reflux issues. You know, talking about swallowing issues. It's really not that uncommon, especially for me, without a lot of risk factors. Nobody really pointed to this as something that was, you know, in, on the horizon or should even be on our radar. You know, I had a swallow study done the winter previous to see what was going on, and it looked pretty good. Now in hindsight, we, we may have seen something there, but it wasn't anything obvious and that was fine. But it just continued to progress to the point where I was, I was losing some weight, I was drinking a little bit more of my food, which is Something that a, you know, middle aged guy really shouldn't be doing. But I didn't put it off real long. You know, my, my wife's gonna laugh. She gives me a hard time about ignoring doctors, but I really don't like if something's wrong. I, I kind of know like. And I was not complacent, which is probably what helped, you know, give me a good result. But yeah, we got, you know, to a point where I was definitely stressed. I mean, at the time I was doing a whole bunch for my son's little league as a volunteer and our business was growing and I had a huge chunk of it. High hours, a lot of stress. So, you know, we thought it was just stress related. Got on some pepcid antacid type stuff and I thought I saw a little improvement, maybe that was the placebo effect. But over the next six, eight weeks, kind of saw that it might even be getting worse with the prescription. And then we kind of, you know, hopped into action, got scheduled for an endoscopy, which is where. Excuse me, but hit the fan. So.
- [08:42]
A
Wow, what age?
- [08:44]
B
I was 39. Yeah, I was actually diagnosed like 13 days before my 40th birthday. So that sucked.
- [08:53]
A
Okay, so 39. But other than a couple things you mentioned, no other major symptoms.
- [09:00]
B
So you didn't have. This is something I marvel at. I felt great. I, you know, it's funny, I, I lost a few pounds and some of it was on purpose, but my energy level was good, I was strong, I was healthy. And honestly, on the day to day, I felt fantastic and no pain, nothing. Just a little bit of trouble getting some food down. And you know, it was like those drier, heavier foods, you know, like a chicken breast or something would get sort of stuck and, you know, eventually worked it out, but it did get worse. You know, I, I look back now and at the time I was probably just trying to make it happen, but, you know, I would get a milkshake twice a day instead of having lunch or something. You know, like things that I knew I could get in there. But I had lost about 15 or 20 pounds and I was watching what I ate and I was exercising more. So the, the weight loss kind of almost felt like an accomplishment, but I think it was helped along by the symptoms. So, you know, that was like. I don't know, I, I was sort of feeling good about myself, having a few pounds up. And then, you know, it just, it got, it progressed to the point where it was kind of undeniable that something wasn't Quite right. I mean, again, we didn't go into the endoscope expecting the catastrophic results we got, but.
- [10:14]
A
Right. Wow. Okay, so you schedule, you schedule the endoscopy. You, you, but you, you still don't have even an inkling that it's cancer. You didn't like, Google stuff and they're like, oh, you're probably gonna have cancer. No, no, I'm not a WebMD.
- [10:31]
B
Like, you know, I, I feel like, yeah, every time you Google a symptom, and this goes for. Even when it's, when you know what you have, you know, the worst case scenario is the first thing that comes up on the search. And I think a lot of people maybe don't understand that. And that's, I think, why I was lucky, you know, to keep my headspace clear. The law of the medical people in my life were good about that. You know, I remember discussion with my best friend, he's doctor in the Navy, and we're talking about how bad this could be. And he was obviously trying to do what he could to help me, but he's like, he's like, listen, he's like, those statistics are the, the entirety of diagnostics. So, you know, a guy who's 75 and is diagnosed with what you have and has a lifetime of alcoholism and, and you know, smoking and is weak, has X survival rate and, you know, you're 39 and healthy and you're not the same. So, you know, you see these statistics and you see these things on, you know, Google or WebMD when you find out something bad and, and it can be jarring. You know, these percentages are extremely hard to process in your head. But, you know, I kind of like, I was very lucky in the sense that I had pragmatic medical people in my life that basically said, you know, that's not you, even though that's what it says. And I, you know, as a general baseline, I never put a ton of stock into that kind of stuff. So, you know, but yeah, I mean, before the test. No, Jeff, I, I, I was not thinking. We were walking out of there, you know, with the diagnosis that would change, change everything.
- [12:04]
A
So, so, so you go in for the endoscopy, do you get an answer the same day?
- [12:12]
B
Same day.
- [12:14]
A
Okay. What happened?
- [12:15]
B
So, yeah, I'll never forget it. I mean, I knew I didn't have to talk to the doctor, was in the recovery room. You know, they, they twilight you for an endoscopy. It's not a big deal. You're out for half an hour. But they. Yeah, they kind of. They kind of put you in a solo room with a tech for a few minutes for evaluation. I still remember the guy. I wish I knew his name. He's local. I'm sure I'd know him some way.
- [12:37]
A
Yeah.
- [12:38]
B
So nice. I guarantee he knew, though. I guarantee he knew because he was a great guy. And then, you know, 10 minutes they knew I was okay, wheeled me out to my wife. We sat there for a few minutes, and directly out the side of the, like, you know, waiting room I was in was a set of double swinging doors. And the doctor that performed the endoscopy walked in and just by dumb luck, as he cleared through the doors, we made eye contact and immediately knew. I knew he didn't have to say a word. He kind of made a beeline, right? And I knew what was going on because you could read it on his face from 20ft away. So, yeah, it was.
- [13:15]
A
I just got chills.
- [13:17]
B
That was tough. I mean, you know, my. My thing. My wife kind of had her. Him. But I saw him and I. From that moment forward, I knew I was in for it, because I just, I could tell, you know, I mean, I'm sure for. For a doctor, I mean, I'm a young guy, he knew my situation, knew I had a couple kids. And I guarantee he's a smart enough man to know that I was in for it. You know, it's not a good diagnosis. And I think I saw that in his. Just one facial expression gave me as much information as the 20 minute discussion we had afterwards.
- [13:49]
A
So, so, so the, the moment, and you did a great job framing that moment, in that moment was the exact thing in your brain. Stage four cancer. I'm dead soon. Or what? What was this?
- [14:02]
B
No, no, no, but that, that's kind of where it got. No, my, my initial read was, it's bad.
- [14:10]
A
Excuse me?
- [14:10]
B
Oh, yeah, I could just see it. You know, obviously, I'm not a, you know, medical person. I didn't know what that meant, but I could tell you he came in a couple minutes later. He didn't leave us long. You know, basically, he was good. I, you know, a lot of respect for that. That man, he was. He was good to me. But he, you know, kind of gave us a slightly watered down version of what he thought was going on. You know, described it as a stricture, which, you know, I think I pressed him at the time. It was like, you know, what did he call it? He called it a stricture, which is like a. A narrowing of a tube Basically, I, I, like I said I knew and I kind of just sort of asked him and I think, you know, at that time he told us he thought it was very likely esophageal cancer, which the. You just asked me about like, you know, checking, checking symptoms and stuff. So what's the first thing that happens? He walks out, phone comes open, boom. What's this first thing you search is, you know, esophageal cancer survival rates. And it's, it's low. It's low. I mean, it's, you don't have to dig around long to see that it's probably less than 20% on a five year time horizon for most people that are diagnosed. Which, you know, I'm sitting there in a robe trying to recover from a, an endoscope and process this. And it didn't hit me until much later that those numbers, like my friend in the Navy said, you know, don't actually, didn't actually apply. I mean, I did, I think I did have a better chance there, There were some factors that contributed to better, you know, better outcomes for me. But like that's the first thing you do. And I guarantee everyone that hear bad news, does it? I mean, we have these little boxes in our pocket that have all the information ever learned. And yeah, the first thing you want to do is know what your chances are.
- [16:05]
A
Right.
- [16:05]
B
So that was, that was really hard. And you know, my wife was right there with me and I think she knew too. But yeah, you know, we stayed in the hospital and went upstairs and then. So my best, like our families. One of our closest friends is a medical doctor who's, you know, she's, she's been in the, the Lehigh Valley system, which is now Jefferson. She's been in it for years and she kind of like buzzed right over and then got us hooked up with a local oncologist, hematologist, like that night for a little consult, which was pretty crazy. I think I got a CT that evening too. But honestly, Jeff, it all runs together. It was, yeah, it was kind of crazy. But, you know, we were juggling everything. You're trying to figure out what to do. You know, the kids were with my, I think they might have been at school, so my parents had to get them. And then we wanted to see my parents and I didn't want the kids there yet, and it was just, I don't even remember at all. It was, yeah, you know, you're, you're, you're spinning. That's really the best.
- [17:07]
A
Okay, so I want to stay Right in this moment. Now, when did they say stage four?
- [17:14]
B
I don't think that was the case. Yeah. No. So, yeah, I'll give you the. The whole. The whole rundown. So, yeah, that evening, I met with Dr. Mike Evans. He ended up being my oncologist, which at the time, we weren't sure of. He was just who was on staff. And, you know, he was probably the most, like, calming and centering person through my entire journey. And at the time, I didn't know it, but my mom and dad had got there at that point. He came up and talked to me for a little while, and at that point, they had kind of settled in that it was definitely esophageal cancer. They had no idea if there was any type of distal spread. So your basics are stage one, and then two, three are, from what I gathered through the journey, were pretty similar. It's mostly the size of the tumor, and then your transition to stage four would be if you have distal spread to either lymph nodes or other organs, which at the time, he. We didn't have. Yeah. So at the time, they just had a picture of the inside of my esophagus. I think they knew there was a tumor that had a, you know, substantial size to it. So the assumption was that I was past the, you know, stage one, which is where you might be able to treat without doing the whole gamut. Most. Most esophageal cancers, you know, really bad, because the symptoms aren't noticed until it's been there for years and it's all over the place. And at the time, I don't think Mike knew that I had decent chance, but, you know, I kicked my family out, and I just looked him in the eyes. I'm like, what is this? Is this. Is this the end? Is this whatever? And, you know, he looked me square in the eyes, and he's like, no. He's like, this is a speed bump. He's like, you can do this. He's like, it's going to be hard. He's like, this is going to be a long, long process. He's like, you're probably looking at, you know, months of chemo and radiation and then a really big surgery at the end. And he's like, it's not avoidable. He's like, it's not the kind of thing where, you know, whatever, but, you know, he gave me hope, like, almost immediately. And I'm like, I said, looking back on it, I don't know if he had enough information to give me that hope. But I like the attitude, you know, wow. So, yeah, that was. That was a lot. So we progressed from there to a PET scan, which, you'll notice a common theme. I like I said, I have very, very lucky to have really good people in my corner at that time. We went over the next eight days, so I can't honestly recall the exact process, but we got a PET scan sometime within 48 hours of that, which is, like, unheard of. You know, it's usually weeks, months. But I will tell you, Jeff, had I had to wait weeks with something growing inside of me, I might have got a knife and cut it out myself. Because I just like my mental. I'm a fixer by nature as the kind of person, the kind of job I did my whole life. It's like, there's no way I could have handled that. So we got a PET scan right afterwards. I got a metaport installed with the anticipation of needing chemo within three to four days. We had, I think, at least one ct. And at that point, they were as confident as they could be that I had not had metastatic spread, which is excellent news. The way it was described to me is you have, like, multiple lymph nodes that kind of run up the side of your esophagus, and they tie into the rest of your body for drainage. They're almost like Christmas lights sort of hanging up the esophagus. And there were one or two down near where my tumor was. And, you know, at no point did anyone say to me, you don't have cancer in those lymph nodes, or you do, because the tumor was in a position that was kind of sort of just the whole area. But they did know relatively soon that it wasn't like, wasn't in my liver, wasn't elsewhere. So, you know, that was like, the first little sliver of good news, you know? And then from that point, we consulted with a surgeon in Lehigh who basically said, I don't care what stage you are. He's like, if you're past, like, the absolute infant stages, like something that would have been caught by a diagnostic for no reason with no symptoms, Once you're past that, it doesn't matter if you're 2, 3, or 4. He's like, we're gonna hit it with the same hammer. So why would we wait six weeks to schedule you for a diagnostic endoscopy? Which is a thing where they go in same way, except they don't go with a camera. It's like an imaging system. He's like, why Would we schedule you wait six weeks for a diagnostic endoscopy if we're going to treat it the same way? And I was like, okay, that sounds good. Let's go. So I already got the court.
- [22:10]
A
Yeah.
- [22:11]
B
And so we did a consult with him, and he was cocky and arrogant, and I loved it because he wasn't a jerk. But, yeah, he was, he was very, very confident and, you know, he was very real. And I'm, you know, I have, I like cars, I'm a mechanical guy. And he basically described with his hands how he's gonna do it. And he said, you know, like, like little stuff that just appealed to me. You know, he had done some robotic assisted surgeries and he didn't like the results, which is very unusual in this day and age because everyone seems to want to go robotic and, and technology, you know, technology's like, you know, so advanced in the medical field, they all want to use it. And he's like, I was closing up patients that I had never put my hands on their tissue and I'd never actually dissected their, their tumor. And I, you know, I just didn't feel comfortable with the, the concept of, did I get it all if I couldn't actually see it? And, you know, it was kind of a little bit of an old school approach. I mean, there's, there's a lot of surgeons doing the surgery. I had one way, the other way, nobody knows, blah, blah, blah. But I liked his kind of rationale.
- [23:22]
A
Yeah.
- [23:22]
B
But we left there and we did get a consult with Penn, and that was a nightmare. They were nowhere near as positive and they were nowhere near as personal. So my wife and I also almost got in like, three car accidents on the way to Philly. It was like a sign. And I'm not a sign, like superstitious person, but the, the thought on the way home, like, I mean, Penn Medical's amazing, obviously, it's a incredible, incredible institution. But, you know, we, we kind of did like the consult with a chemo radiologist, consult with a surgeon, consult with another surgeon, and then out the door and it's like, well, you know, here you go. And, you know, I liked all the people, but the kind of. The thought of being in Philadelphia for days on end, two and a half hours from my house, that drive up the Pennsylvania Turnpike, I just, it was, it was a monster struggle for me mentally. And, you know, on the ride home, I was texting a little bit with my primary care physician, and she kind of got me on the horn with the, oncologist that I met the first day. And at the time they were obviously sort of learning themselves, like where we were, like what we were looking at. But we had the PET result, the PET scan results. And they kind of decided at that point. In fact, I think we were almost halfway home. You know, you go through the Lehigh Tunnel there on the turnpike, so we lose cell phone reception. I think the wife. My wife and I pulled over and I had a cell phone call with the oncologist. And he's like, I'm. They do a, like a cooperative with Sloan Kettering. And there's a. There was a physician at Sloan Kettering, Dr. Khu, I think his name was, who was a kind of on the cutting edge of this stuff. And he's like, I'm hearing that there's like a different way. And he's like, we've done it a few times in Allentown. He's like, I think you're a great candidate, blah, blah, blah. He's like, you know, give me a day or two. So they got an email chain going, I guess, and figured it out. So I ended up. We chose to stay with Lehigh Valley and I treated like four miles from my house, which was pretty awesome because, you know, the medicine that goes in is the medicine where you get it. You don't have to go to a real highly technical place. But the big thing was, you know, they, they decided to go with a type of treatment that was a little bit out of the box. The way it was described to me is there's their standard of care and it's kind of like a flowchart. But there are times where there's something new and it takes time for people to realize that the something new is better. So it wasn't on the standard of care, which as 39 year old guy, like, you know, going out of the box here, like part of me was like, what am I doing? Like, why would I not do what is proven? But when the results of what's proven are like 40 to 50 survival rate at 5 years, I was like, like, maybe there's better. So, yeah, probably one of the most, you know, difficult decisions of my life. And I had to make it in like, you know, 12 hours because whatever. So, you know, get on the phone with everyone I possibly know in the medical field and ask them if they've heard of this and if it makes sense and got some reassurance from some really smart people that I trusted and decided to go with this kind of experimental way of doing things, which was 88 treatments of like a very serious chemo ahead of the surgery, and no radiation at all, which most people that have a tumor in their esophage, they irradiate the crap out of it and then give you chemo to kill anything around it. And then they cut the whole thing out. Radiation can be pretty rough. Radiation is also one of those things you can only do to your chest cavity once. So the thinking there is if you go chemo first and you hit it with the best you can, and by chance you have some type of recurrence, maybe you can radiate the second time then for a better chance. So it just kind of made some sense to me. So that entire process, that last 10 minutes of rambling was like seven days worth of stuff going on, all those tests. But I went from diagnosis to my first chemo treatment after making that call to go with the, the Sloan Kettering program. It a kind of an experimental deal. And I got the first needle in my shoulder for the metaport eight days later, which is absolutely insane. But honestly, thank God for that because the way my head goes, like you said in the intro about like the lows, like those, that period, like trying to figure that out. I mean, that's it.
- [28:10]
A
Like, yeah, that's brutal.
- [28:14]
B
And, and you know all that information, right? That all comes in, in an eight day period. It seems like a lot, but in that eight days, man, you get a lot of down time where you can't do anything. And like, I don't know. I think my wife and I just pretty much laid on the couch and like complete and total dark. Like how, like, what is happening? Like, I, I can't even describe it. Like you're not tired, but you still felt good, right? I mean, I did. I mean, the swallowing wasn't. It was obviously worse and was having a hard time eating. And they kind of put me on a liquid diet right out of the gate, which wasn't a big deal. I'm stubborn. I mean, if I gotta drink seven insurers a day, whatever. But they, you know, and that was another thing, the diet part of it. Like, they told me, you know, you're gonna lose a ton of weight through this because the surgery's massive. And it was. I think I underestimated the surgery. It seemed down the road, and I was kind of like, oh, that's the last step. Okay, whatever. That was tough.
- [29:15]
A
That was a lot. Yeah, it was a lot.
- [29:18]
B
But yeah, I mean, the, the whole thing was, you're gonna lose a bunch of weight, so try to keep your weight up as PA as much as possible. I ended up gaining weight through chemo and like, liquid diet, all that, because I'm just wasn't gonna take any other answer. But, but that was kind of like the, the diagnosis that was, that was kind of how it all unfolded. So that.
- [29:39]
A
Let's move in now.
- [29:41]
B
Yeah.
- [29:41]
A
That's incredible. I mean, you framed it up perfectly. Let's move into the lowest part. The Valley was there one. The absolute lowest part of this whole thing.
- [29:53]
B
I don't know. You know, it's funny. I, I, I'm learning this about myself at 46 years old. I am, like, so stubbornly optimistic. It's kind of like, ridiculous. I'm not gonna lie. Like, there was not a, like, I was not happy about this, but I transitioned from like, oh my God, I'm gonna die, to fight like hell real quick. Like, I, I, you know, I, I kind of talked to you about, you know, how the stuff you're doing with your, with your kids and, and the, the hey, dad stuff. Like, I, I was not ready to leave my kids. Obviously no one would be, but, you know, the only answer to that is fight like hell. And the fact that that went quick was really great for my mental state because I think the worst was the seven or eight days between being diagnosed and doing the tests and getting all the medical procedures done to prepare me for the chemo. It was the downtime during that window that was so hard because you, you've, and, and I, I'm, I guarantee anyone that's ever been diagnosed understands this. You have, you have something growing inside of your body that is trying to kill you, and you can't do anything about it. And I was just overcome with this. Like, it's fear. I mean, it is, it's, it's fear. Like, it's, it's, it's not fear like a scary movie or haunted house. I mean, it's fear that it's just deep in your entire body and soul. Like, there is no comparing it. You can't, it wouldn't ever want to, but you can't put someone in that mind, mind frame. I mean, you know, the, the fear of losing my own life was not really on my mind. It was the fear of, like, leaving my kids behind. I mean, they weren't ready. They weren't old enough. And, you know, how does that change their life? And, you know, I know I didn't ask for it, but, like, yeah, what's happening to me is going to change everything for them, you know, no kid loses a parent at nine and isn't different. And, you know, that was, like, super, super hard to get my head around. And obviously, you know, like, wasn't looking to die or have cancer, but, like, it did change everything for them. But, like, I sit here as a great result, and, I mean, my doctor was right. Like, it was a speed bump, as it was a big one. But, like, at that time, I mean, your gut is saying, I want to believe him, but your head is saying, this guy is probably just placating me because he knows what I'm in for. And, you know, I'm a smart enough person to be pragmatic in bad situations. And I, you know, unfortunately was pragmatic enough to know that there was a pretty good chance that he was bullshitting me or at least just trying to make it easier. And that. That's. That's hard. But, you know, I spent those six or seven, eight days. We made a lot of decisions, and we did a lot of research. I did a ton of reading. My nature is to fix. I figured the only thing I could do is educate myself and somehow maybe find something different or better or that'll give me an edge. And, you know, I guess that's kind of the way I'm wired, which is fine. It was probably helpful. But those. Those days did not get 100 taken up with that process. So the darkest times were just waiting to get after it. But once the fight started, I mean, I think I kind of, in a weird way thrived in that environment because I kind of, like. I kind of got a kick out of the fact that, like, so they put me on this chemo that was, like, four drugs, and it was. It. I mean, they said they're basically just gonna hit me with a sledgehammer. And I actually kind of tolerated it. All right. Like, it was very, very, very awful. But, like, I got through it. I did the entire eight treatments, which was a big indicator of success. And we had a couple of scans during the process. One at, like. I think it was after four treatments that showed, like, like, significant improvement, I also started to be able to eat a little bit again. So, like, you've never. Like, if you've never had, you know, chemotherapy in your body, like, it's. It's really hard to describe. Like, it. I had a couple of people that were, like, you know, had been through it that I spoke to really helped me. But, like, it is really changes everything inside of you. Like, you're basically killing yourself to try to then kill the cancer in the process and then recover. And I mean, it kills every lining, every membrane, every fast growing cell in your body dies. So, you know, it was, it was tough, but I kind of like, I expected the chemo to actually be a little worse. I mean, it hangs on you by the end. I mean, treatment one and two were very difficult because there were a lot of things going on. You know, losing your hair, you know, like, I couldn't, I had, it was a platinum based chemo, so I couldn't drink anything cold or it would send like shock waves down my spine. My. Wow. Obviously, you know, my, like my whole body felt weird, but like, I did have like a, a very like, low grade, like, sort of aching in the area of like where the tumor would have been. And I don't know, somehow I took that as like, oh, that shit's dying. I, I think that, like helped. Yeah. You know, I was like, oh, yeah, all right, I'm winning. And I just, I don't know, the, that process somehow agreed with my crazy mindset, but. Right. Yeah. The week leading up to the treatment starting was tough because it just felt like I'm waiting and it was only eight days, you know, like. But that's how it felt. It just felt like, yeah, I gotta do something. Like, what do I do? Right, right.
- [35:55]
A
Was there any time, do you remember ever going like, saying to yourself, I'm not going to keep doing this?
- [36:04]
B
No, that wasn't an option for me. I'll be honest, you know, I, I, no, that never crossed my mind.
- [36:14]
A
Yeah, great.
- [36:15]
B
I think, you know, I did a lot of reading and learning about how outcomes can be improved through mindset. And I'm not like a real earthy, crunchy person. Like, I believe in medicine and my doctors and, you know, think the holistic side of healing is real, but I wouldn't put my life on it. Does that make sense?
- [36:40]
A
Totally.
- [36:41]
B
You know, I think there's a component to healing that is 100% in your attitude. I think there's a component to healing that has to do a lot with what we put in our bodies and how we feed ourselves and what we don't put in our bodies. But once there is a tumor growing in your esophagus that is absolutely trying to kill you if you leave it go. Like, there's no other option, in my opinion, than just letting the doctors do their thing with medicine. So, you know, I try to take a, a full around, like, approach to it. And I mean, I did do some like, kooky stuff like in my head I mean, I'm not gonna lie. I woke up every morning after, got to the bathroom and looked myself straight in the eyes in the mirror and said, not today. Like, it's not. Excuse me, but I'm not dying. And, yeah, that was literally every single day. And, you know, I didn't stop doing that until, like, two years out because it just wasn't an option. And I don't think that's why I was. Good outcome, but I don't think it hurt. Oh, you know, I'm not a real religious guy. You know, there's. There's a lot of people in my life that. That believe in God and have faith, and I just was never blessed with faith, so I didn't have that to lean on. You know, I couldn't just say, you know, God's got me and I'll be all right. But, like, I just. I. As. No matter how comforting and easy that would make a journey, like having cancer and reassuring to think that there's some higher power to have you. I just don't have that in me. And. And, you know, sometimes I wish I did because it's harder because I'm on my own in my mind. And, you know, I don't know. My wife's a very religious person. Her family's very religious. I know they prayed for me. No, hundreds of people prayed for me, and I took it. I took it all, and I thanked them for it. It was incredible. But, yeah, I just am not wired to have that. And, you know, I did some reading that said, you know, religious people have better outcomes because their stress level is lower. You know, they trust a higher power to take care of them. So I just kind of said, I'm gonna take care of myself, and. And I don't have another option. But I mean that, you know, I think the mindset helped. I mean, I, you know, did some, like, healing therapy. My head, you know, just like, little stuff. I mean, you know, I'm not going to get into the nuts and bolts, all that, but I. I don't know. I mean, it helped, but, no, I. I never thought. I can't do this. I mean, there were some times after the surgery that were way more difficult than I anticipated, Jeff. But I never, like, once it's done, the only thing after you get a surgery like that is to heal. You can't go back on it. So.
- [39:25]
A
Right.
- [39:25]
B
There was no quitting once they cut me, you know.
- [39:28]
A
Yeah. So staying in the fight and the struggle. So you have the chemo, you have the eight sessions. When, when did it become reality, what the surgery is going to be? Did you block? Like, I could see me blocking that out of my mind, not wanting to know, but then wanting to know and having this like, back and forth. How did that play out for you?
- [39:52]
B
Yeah, you, you kind of nailed it there with the blocking it out. Yeah, you know, I, I, I coped with the, the diagnosis by learning, you know, I read everything I could read from survivors, people that had been through the surgery. And I was trying to figure out what my life was going to look like afterwards. And you know, the funny thing is in hindsight, now here I sit almost coming up on seven years. I was mostly wrong. So all you read on the Internet is people that have had frustrating or difficult long term outcomes from the surgery. The surgery is called an esophagectomy. I, I don't know. It was described to me as like one of the top three most complicated thoracic surgeries. You know, obviously the Whipple for pancreatic cancer is a whole nother animal. But yeah, basically they, so our mind was done in the traditional way. So they, they split me basically from my pelvis to the breastbone and then remove from the top of the stomach, they take the cut on the esophagus and then they turn the stomach into like a long tube. Right. Which it's not supposed to be. Then they cut you from. So like my neck all the way around my shoulder blade to under my arm. Jack up your shoulder blade, go in there, remove the esophagus, they pull the stomach up in between your lungs and reattach it. So like your stomach is now here. And I mean, it's, it's kind of crazy, but I, I read so many people that were long term, like, unable to eat, unable to hold weight, but you know, it's kind of like people on the Internet that complain about your business. Like, you, you see the negative reviews, but the people who had a good time just go about their life. And I think that's what, like, maybe my process was maybe more difficult on myself because I read these people in forums and on Reddit and in different, you know, survivor groups that had like really life changing results from the surgery. And like, I am different. Like, it's harder and, and I hide it. I mean, I'm a fake it till you make it guy. Like, whatever. Nobody wants to hear my sob story, but I didn't, like, for the first two years. I had a lot of those, those issues, but I've, I've healed well. Like, and I think there are a lot of people out there that have healed well. You just don't hear from them. And I think that was my mistake, is listening to all the woe is me people, which tend to be what you hear when you're looking for information on a surgery, because the people that healed well don't complain. They don't talk about it. So. But, I mean, wow. I. I denied it, and then, you know, had the surgery and woke up afterwards, and, oh, man, that was a sick month. So, I mean, it's. It's a big one. I. I think I was not quite prepared for the. The pain, the initial healing, the difficulty. I mean, it was. It was a doozy. I. I got some stories around that surgery, man.
- [42:56]
A
Yeah, we're gonna. We're gonna get into them. I. I want to say this again, just in case anybody missed it. You made such an incredible point right there. When I dine out at a restaurant, if I had an unbelievable review, I leave it. If I had an absolutely terrible review, I leave it. But the 99 aren't leaving the reviews or the 89, whatever the number is. What you just said, man, makes so much sense that it's just sort of the naysayers putting. Putting negative mojo out across the Internet. Wow. Okay. That's awesome. Let's go back into the. Right where you're at. So the surgery. Yeah. Tell me some stories. Tell me. Start off when your eyes opened. Yeah, get me right there.
- [43:45]
B
Oh, God. You got. You. You're in for one here. So let's go. Let's go, big guy. By the time I had surgery, I was, like, £240 because they asked me to put some weight on. I. Like, I wasn't able to eat by mouth for almost a month. So that they. What? At the end of. Yeah, at the end of my. I mean, a little bit, but it was. It was like jello and, like, you know, little stuff. But so, you know, towards the end of chemo, I was able to swallow again, and I had a month break. It ended up being, like, only about three weeks because I had done pretty well. So, like, I actually started to get a hair back and, like, for three weeks, like, not having had any chemo, man, by the end of that, I was feeling good. Like, I was hoping that maybe they'd call me someday and be like, oh, you don't need the surgery. You're fine. It never came, but felt good, and I was positive. And it was like, fall was middle of October. We finally got in for the surgery, but yeah, Part of the surgery was having an epidural, which is basically a nerve block. Put it in beforehand, knocked me out. I don't remember anything after that. I guess surgery was seven or eight hours. My wife has some funny stories. I guess the doctor came out all sweaty. I said I was a lot of work, but, But I actually, so they, they, they dislodged my epidural during the procedure. And I woke up in a pain, like an, a physical pain. And, and I'm like, you know, I'm just the normal person, but I am pretty tolerant of pain. I'm not really a complainer. I woke up in a pain that, you know, that you get the frowny face chart in the doctor's office. Like I was five or six faces to the right of that last guy who' I, I, I'm telling you, I would have rather died at that point. And after everything I've said, I think most people can gather that that was not something I was looking for. So it was awful. But it took them about 20 minutes to figure that out, which was obviously just, you know, an unfortunate mistake. But I remember at one point they put me back out because I was in so much pain. And they woke me up. And the anesthesiologist comes in and he's like, what's going on? He's talking to me and I'm like, look, I'm like, I, I don't think it's supposed to feel like this. I'm like, I feel like there's a elephant on my chest and he's sitting on a bunch of knives. And the guy's like, okay. And he took an ice cube.
- [46:08]
A
Oh my gosh.
- [46:09]
B
And he drew a number three on the inner side of my left thigh. And I said, oh, that's a three. And he went white because I shouldn't have felt anything below the middle of my chest. So they put me back out and then redid the epidural and everything was fine after that. But yeah, it was, that was a mess. But, but it was short lived. I mean, it didn't have any impact on my healing. And then so, yeah, you wake up from there and you go to ICU for like two days. And I mean, I was, it was, I was just like getting hit by a truck. Like, I had no concept of how I was gonna feel. It's a, I mean, I don't think anyone does until, you know, someone goes inside and replumbs you. And it doesn't happen to a lot of people, thankfully, but it was rough I ended up in the hospital for nine days, I believe. I think we were gonna go for 10, but on the ninth day, I was able to get up and walk around and. And eat a little bit of jello. But, you know, I mean, I could go through the. The whole process, but I. You know, honestly, Jeff, it's a lot of tubes, it's a lot of drainage, it's a lot of pain, and it's just a lot of waiting for your body to just kind of figure it out. You know, they. They fill you up with air so that your esophagus can heal, and they don't get any, like, leaks because there's stitching there. And if your food starts to leak into your body, you can obviously get septic. So, you know, they. They fed me through, like, I had a feeding tube for about a month and a half, which, thank God, I didn't use. After the hospital, I kind of just chose to lose more weight and eat the little bit I could because the feeding tube process was really. I struggled with that. It was. It was not something we wanted to do. So. Yeah, but, I mean, I got home on day 10, and, you know, I was basically chair bound for maybe two months, but part of the procedure was collapsing your lung. And, you know, like, I. Like, I was in pretty good shape beforehand, and, I mean, I couldn't walk up the steps afterwards. It was. It was a long process. It took probably, I would say, a year for me to get, like, lung capacity back. And I think the biggest thing is, like, you're eating. Like, everything about my nourishing myself changed. So for the first six months, I mean, I couldn't eat anything but, like, vegetables and like, a little bit of, like, chicken thigh. And, like, I could eat maybe, maybe 150 to 200 calories at a time before I would just get bloated. And there's. There's a thing called dumping not to get into it, but your. Your stomach basically says, oh, I don't want that, and shoots it straight in your intestines. Your intestines go. We don't want food that's not been in the stomach. So, like. And then you basically go into this. Like, it's kind of like a. Like a sugar shock where everything starts cramping and it's a mess. I mean, I still get it to some extent. I probably will forever, but it's minor. I mean, I'm able to manage it. You know, I can do a lot of things that I couldn't do, and I feel like, you're when some like you're opened up, I think you're like, you want to call it like your, your gut biome dies. And I think establishing that again just takes a very long time. So that was like part of the deal. But yeah, like the, the post surgical recovery was not, I did not have myself prepared for it. I was more prepared for like the long term challenges of eating. Like, I knew what I was in for there. But yeah, a lot of pain, a lot of holes, a lot of tubes. Long time before I could walk and get going again.
- [49:57]
A
But still mindset that, still the mindset through the difficulty. There wasn't a day of giving up or.
- [50:05]
B
No, no, I, I again, you know, I had. So I left some stuff out. The surgical biopsy results were excellent. I got what they call complete clinical remission from the chemo alone, which, it's funny, I talked a little bit previously about that meeting with my oncologist at the hospital the first day he mentioned that at the time, he's like, this is what we want. We want complete clinical remission. It's basically the tumor at the time of the surgery is dead. There are no live cancer cells. That is a very, very big forecaster of quality results outside of the, you know, the five year window. So at that point, I think the difficulty of the surgery was a little bit more just, okay, he'll get better, but like, we're starting to look good. Like, don't get me wrong, I was still fearful for years of recurrence and issues. I still am to some extent, but, but I think we had kind of looked at it like, wow, we might have got this, you know, like there was enough optimism from the medical staff that I was starting to believe that maybe I was gonna live. And like that was good enough to latch on to. So. No, I mean, I, I never, I was never gonna quit. I mean, if it came back, I'd fight it again. I, I just, you know, it's all. Wasn't something I'd sign up for, but had to do it. You got to do it. You know, it's, it's, it's not an option. So.
- [51:39]
A
Yeah, a lot of. There's so much strength in this story. I love it. Let's, let's move in then to more
- [51:45]
B
stubborn, if you ask my wife.
- [51:49]
A
Good. Well, whatever, whatever it took, man. I mean, it's, it's so encouraging. It's, it's. And this is going to bring a lot of hope and a lot of. Yeah, a lot of strength to a lot of people for a lot of years to come. So let's, let's move into the now. What does life look like? So we'll call it the after. In the beginning, I framed it up that, you know, you're, we have a before and an after when we have a major episode like this or a major occurrence. So you had your life before. What, what's it like now? After. Once healing started and what are you up to?
- [52:23]
B
You, man, I'm, I'm a lucky guy. You know, as close as you could get to back on track is kind of where I've gotten. I would say, you know, it took about three years for me to kind of get energy and, and vibrancy back. But I feel good. I do. I mean, I have pain, I have some aches, there's some, you know, the struggles with the eating. But I mean, in general, I mean, I can do everything I want to do. I went back to work way too early, which was an issue. But you know, we talked a little off air about my family business. They needed me. You know, it was my mom and dad and I ran a relatively big local business and I was pretty key cog in what we did and we were never able to fill any of our shoes with employees. It was tough. You know, when you own a business, you put love, sweat, tears into it in a way that you can't replace with, you know, x dollar an hour employee. Just can't do it. There's just a dedication. And my parents had to dedicate a ton of time to my kids while I was down and they were amazing. But the business suffered and we were, we were in trouble and I kind of had to go back and fill my role earlier than needed. But, you know, that whole story is another story. But it progressed to the point where, you know, I have returned basically back to full time work and, and you know, deal with the stresses that anyone else deals with and you know, it's fun. Know, I used to, used to get so aggravated by that, but now there's times where I'm just like, well, you know, it's certainly better than my alternative timeline. So even though work right now is kicking me down and everything stinks and I feel like I'm getting dirt thrown on my head every time I turn around. Like, well, you know, yeah, I'm here and I'm able to do it. So, you know, it's good. And the kids are great. You know, they've, they've done pretty well with it. I mean it was certainly, you know, jarring. Experience for my children. You know, I don't know if they. I don't know if they're old enough to really unpack, like, how it was. But, you know, the fact that it went so well turned it into more of an experience for them than a, you know, like a shift point, which.
- [54:31]
A
Yeah.
- [54:31]
B
God, I'm probably more thankful about that than anything. And, you know, my. My wife's been, you know, with me the whole time, and she's got a great job, and things are. Things are good. I mean, like I said, the small struggles with. With the health things, I just. I. I kind of look at them almost like. Like a reminder of the journey more so than a burden because, you know, it's like, God, like, if I didn't feel this crappy, you know, pain in my shoulder. I do this all the time. Like, I think people probably think I'm, like, some kind of weirdo, but I do this all the time, and I can't help it because I have this, like, horrible scar right under my scapula that just like. Like, I gotta move it. Oh. So, yeah, like, as I'm doing this, like, I'm talking to someone, like, having a meeting or something, and I'm like, right. But you know what? They don't know, and I don't. You know, maybe they think I'm a weirdo, but that's fine. I can live with that. But, you know, I like those little things. I just kind of look at it like, you know, you know, without that, I mean, like, what did I expect? I mean, I got good results, and. And, you know, there's a lot of people that don't make it. And that. That's, you know, to me, it was. It's been seven years. I. I don't really talk about this publicly. Like, I. This is, you know, not easy for me, Jeff, because, like, I don't, you know, like, I want to celebrate because I've been so very fortunate, and I have so much, and I've been able to see my kids grow up. I mean, one of my number one goals was to just see my kid play, like, his last day, a Little league. He was 12. He's 16 now, and he plays for the high school, and he's gonna graduate. Like, I'm seeing stuff I never even planned for. For a big portion of my, you know, what, 40 and 40 first year. So, like, yeah, I don't like talking about it because, like, I know, like, I've experienced it firsthand. Like, so many people don't live through this. And I've lost friends. I've lost people that I talk to. I've lost people that, like, mentored me, and it's. It's awful. But, you know, here I am, and I, like, I still struggle to unpack all that in my own head. It's, It's. It's very conflicting, you know?
- [56:33]
A
Yeah. Well, you did, you did incredible today. I'm so glad you reached out. Number one two. Wow. So just for the record, this is the first. You see why I wanted to hold off and not hear your story until that. So for everybody out there, I just wanted them to know we didn't. We didn't have a pre. Talk about anything other than catching up in life, but we didn't get into any of the cancer, any of the diagnosis, any of the journey, the struggle. I wanted to do it for the first time on this episode. So. Wow. You did an incredible job. I want to end on the seventh piece now, which is the message. So, you know, if there's, if there's somebody out there currently going through it, if there's somebody that listens to this and says, oh, my goodness, I just got this diagnosis yesterday or last week or my kids just got it. Anything that you want to give for message for encouragement, strength, hope in the process, faith, whatever it is, share it. Share it with us now.
- [57:32]
B
Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, it's. I guess it can be done is my best advice. I mean, it's. I'm proof positive that, that people can heal and recover and get past incredible things, incredible difficulties and horrible diagnosis. You know, the. My message would be don't try not to focus on the stories that don't end good, because there are stories that end good for every diagnosis. I mean, there are miracle people out there. There's people that survive things that, you know, no one gave them a chance. I mean, I certainly didn't have great, you know, out outlook, but the. It wasn't a zero. I mean, there are people that survive things and, and medical miracles that happen, and I, I don't understand it, but I mean, it can happen and don't give up on yourself and, and just fight like hell. Like I said, not today, you know?
- [58:23]
A
Yeah. I love that phrase, man. Not today. I love how you said that, too, in the mirror. Yeah. Powerful. It's powerful. Yeah. Thanks for reaching out. I mean, what an incredible. What an adventure. What a story. I mean, there's so much strength there. So what happens going forward now and then I'll. Then I'll close this out is you're gonna get a lot of people, lots of people sending comments through here. Some people are even going to want to get stuff into your hands and stuff like that. So I'm literally. They're going to say, can you forward this on to Patrick? So, best point of contact if anybody wants to send you a hey, congratulations, type of message. Do you have Instagram?
- [59:04]
B
Yeah, I do have an Instagram account. I don't even. I don't really use it for personal use that much, but sure, no problem.
- [59:12]
A
I'll say. I'll send them along to you. Just send me after the episode. Send me. Send me where you want them because you will get them, and they're awesome, and it's great, and it's just. Yeah, it's. It's good stuff, man. So. All right, thanks for your time, folks. Man, I. I was. This is. This was way more than I was expecting, but in a very positive way. I mean, what a. What a great, great, great story. So, Patrick, thanks for. Thanks again for being on.
- [59:36]
B
Thank you, Jeff.
- [59:37]
A
Appreciate you, man. Yep.