Ep. 68: No Experience. No Plan. Now He Has Georgia’s Best Burger [Billy Kramer - NFA Burger]

Summary

Interesting Humans Podcast – Ep. 68: No Experience. No Plan. Now He Has Georgia’s Best Burger
Guest: Billy Kramer (NFA Burger) | Host: Jeff Hopeck | Date: April 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Jeff Hopeck sits down with Billy Kramer, founder of the award-winning NFA Burger. Billy’s journey from radio sales to burger stardom defies conventional business wisdom—he had no culinary background, no plan, and launched into one of America’s most competitive restaurant segments. The conversation traces his earliest entrepreneurial inklings, methodical approach to problem-solving, evolution through trial and error, and the passion that guides NFA today. At its core, the story is less about burgers and more about grit, curiosity, humility, and a relentless pursuit of improvement.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. From Radio Sales to Burger Boss

• Background and Early Influences

  • Billy grew up in Memphis, was fascinated by process and operations from a young age—especially after seeing a McDonald’s manual as a kid:

    “When a customer gets to the counter to leaving with their bag of food... should be like 87 seconds. It was something that was, like, so specific. That really stood out” (01:49).

  • Became an avid explorer of quirky, legacy restaurants during business trips, influenced by per diem eating and a growing love of burgers (03:32–04:00).

• Instincts as a Salesperson and Restless Creative

  • “If you let me do my thing, you’ll be the happiest sales manager of all time. If you get in my way, I won’t be here very long.” (05:37)
  • Found space for creativity and process improvement first in sales, then in food.

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2. Deep-Dive: Obsession with Process and Iteration

• Burger R&D Roots

  • “If I made a burger, I wasn’t just making burger for myself. I was like, can I make the best burger ever?” (10:03)
  • The pursuit started with simple questions: What do I hate about burgers? How do I fix those issues?—leading to solutions like diced bacon and sauce in every bite (10:46).

• Learning from Others

  • Instagram fame as a burger aficionado opened access to chefs and restaurant owners. Early on, didn’t know how to cook:

    “The problem is I didn’t know how to make a burger. A terrible cook. Not even to call me a terrible cook would be insulting to cooks.” (08:48)

• Infinite Iteration

  • Billy’s relentless trial-and-error resulted in the signature “batch 19” sauce and unique seasoning blends, often crowd-testing each variant with friends and family (14:47–16:32).
  • Quote: “Everything we do is just focus on that one thing. We have four pickles... it’s about surface area.” (15:23)

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3. Jump to Restaurant Reality

• First Pop-Up: Glorious Disaster

  • “It was horrible. Not, it was horror. I would call it a glorious disaster” (24:12)—massive demand, operational chaos, but immediate lessons.
  • Undaunted, Billy focused on fixing everything: “But I could fix it all. I know I can make it all better. And I loved it.” (25:57)

• Gas Station Beginnings

  • Proposition: “Wouldn’t it be cool if the best burger in the world was made in your gas station?” (29:03)
  • Modest opening: “I made three burgers today. Sounds like $30... We kind of needs to be better than that.” (31:28)

• Rapid Growth, Unrelenting Kaizen

  • In under a week, demand grew to 125 burgers a day, outpacing processes and systems.
  • “There’s no day where... I have this, like, vacant look in my face... I see something over there. We’re gonna have to fix that.” (33:48)

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4. Pandemic Pivot & Accolades

• COVID Hits Three Months After Opening

  • “Now you’ve got a guy who has no interest, no experience running a restaurant, is now dealing with a pandemic.” (34:41)
  • Relied on takeout model, adapted rapidly, and got lucky with media attention when the AJC pivoted to food takeout reviews.

• Recognition

  • Wendell Brock’s AJC article fueled fame, followed by Food & Wine’s “Best Burger in Georgia” nod (36:09).
  • “Every time we think, like, we’ve run out of... runway to get some more publicity, it’s something. We put ourselves in a position to do it.” (38:45)

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5. Philosophy: Process, Care, and Math

• On Sauce, Simplicity & Shortcuts

  • Ketchup, mayonnaise: “shortcuts” for sauce; the difference is what you do with them (41:03).
  • Not “fancy” food—just “supposed to taste good,” evoking childhood burger memories (49:08).

• The Secret Sauce: Truly Giving a Damn

  • “We all have one thing in common. That’s, we all give a ****. We all want you to have the best product possible.” (43:24)
  • On fixing customer complaints:

    “We don’t ask them if they want another one. We go get another one... Not negotiating with your customer for their happiness.” (40:17)

• Iterating, Not Settle Down

  • “Never stop, never be settled... If we can fix it in the moment, we will. If not, it’ll be fixed tomorrow.” (34:41)

• Scaling Dilemmas and the Math of Restaurants

  • “It’s a math problem. It’s more a math problem than it is a quality problem, quite frankly.” (47:21)
  • Cautions against over-expansion at the cost of quality:

    “If I was 25, I’d have 100 of these, and they would probably suck. But I’d be rolling at money... I’m not rolling your money. I can tell you that right now.” (52:34)

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6. Industry Wisdom & Helping Others

• Giving Back

  • “I love helping small businesses... I always start with the math... the four elements pay for. Okay? And that last one is yours. It’s rent, it’s labor, it’s this, this, food cost. That last quarter is yours.” (55:53–57:23)

• People Over Product, Always

  • “If you treat people right... like family, they’re going to come back. They’re working.” (59:01)
  • Retention and positive culture marked NFA during COVID compared to industry trends.

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Notable Quotes/Exchanges

• On entering the burger world with no experience:

  “No restaurant background. None. Didn’t come through that... Walks into the burger world and starts beating everybody.” – Jeff Hopeck (00:28)

• On why he succeeded:

  “We all have one thing in common. That’s, we all give a ****. We all want you to have the best product possible.” – Billy (43:24)

• On approach to improvement:

  “I always felt like, you know, Sean Penn at Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Well, I gotta. My dad’s got a great set of tools... I know I can fix it.” (33:03)

• On negative reviews:

  “It’s not that I can’t take constructive criticism. It’s that there’s never any constructive criticism. And it’s never somebody who’s come and talked to me. If you can talk to me, I will make you happy.” (43:17)

• On restaurant business reality:

  “The world is littered with Michelin star restaurants that have gone out of business. They don’t understand the math. Right. They’re so focused on how great the meal is... that they forget that you have to be profitable.” (47:39)

• On his burger philosophy:

  “Burger, to me, is about my childhood more than anything... After school, when I would go to McDonald’s... hanging out with your dad or whoever. That’s what this burger is. This burger is not supposed to be fancy. It’s supposed to just taste good.” (49:08)

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Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• Introduction and Billy’s McDonald’s Manual Memory (01:36–02:12)
• Candid about Cooking Skills (08:48)
• Realization during First Pop-Up—“Glorious Disaster” (24:12)
• First Day at the Gas Station Café — Three Burgers Sold (31:28)
• COVID-19 Restaurant Pivot (34:41)
• Food Critic & “Best Burger in Georgia” (36:09)
• Burger Bash Win and Walking with the Trophy (38:45)
• Philosophy on Customer Care (40:17, 43:17)
• Explaining Restaurant Math for Small Business Owners (55:53–57:23)
• Closing Reflections on Motivation and Legacy (53:12–54:54)

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Conclusion

Billy Kramer’s story isn’t just a burger Cinderella tale; it’s a blueprint for problem-solving, integrity, and doing the little things right. His relentless commitment to process, humility in asking for help, and focus on people—both customers and team—have fueled NFA Burger’s improbable rise. For anyone interested in entrepreneurship, restaurants, or simply a good story of succeeding on your own terms, Billy’s journey offers deep, actionable inspiration.

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Contact/Follow-up:

• NFA Burger [Website & Instagram]—Billy personally replies to all messages and emails.

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Transcript

[A]

This is interesting Humans podcast. My name is Jeff Hopeck, your host. Where we go past the highlight reel and into the moments that actually shape a life. The struggles, the mistakes, the pivots. Because the real lessons aren't found in success. They're found in everything it took to get there. Folks, welcome to episode 68. I have Billy Kramer from NFA Burger. Billy, thanks for being here.

[B]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

I should say, actually, thanks for having us here because we're at your place. So, folks, this story is about so much more than burgers. This man sitting here was not supposed to be successful in this space. He started off in a completely different industry. So if we look at what the business books suggest, you should not be a champion winning all these awards for best burger. But something happened in your story, and we're. We're going to get into it. So no restaurant background. None didn't come. Come through that. Through that space, walks into the burger world and starts beating everybody. Okay. Evidenced by awards that we're going to talk about. The question is, and I think everybody out there is going to want to know, how do you come from radio, radio sales to an industry that's so unbelievably crowded. Right. And not only enter the industry, but come in, be a champion out of the gate, what did you see?

[B]

Well, I've always been fascinated with process since I was a little kid. I had family members that worked at McDonald's growing up in Memphis. We had a family, family friends, owned a McDonald's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I remember going in there as a kid and I saw the manual. They had this, like, this, this guide, their operations manual. And I remember opening to the page where it said, you know, that I can't remember the exact number of seconds. It was. It was something like when a customer gets to the counter to leaving with their bag of food. Should be like 87 seconds. It was something that was, like, so specific.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

That was like, really, like, stood out. I was probably like, I don't know, let's say 10 years old, 10 years old when I saw that. So I've always been fascinated by that. When I'm having a rough day, I'll go down to Krispy Kreme on Ponce and just watch donuts being made. But I'm okay with the route I took.

[A]

So, yeah, let's go all the way back. I'm curious. Right, so you're from what part of that.

[B]

I was born in Memphis. I moved to Jersey for high school and college.

[A]

Can you look back right now where you are when you look back into those earlier years and draw any connection at all that says, oh, I really was an entrepreneur back then.

[B]

I always say it's the Kramer family syndrome. We're always the smartest people in the room and we, you know, success takes place, I think when you realize you're not the smartest person in the room. When you realize, like, you, there are other people who know more and you can learn from those people. Yeah. But even my first job out of college, I was going to travel around the Southeast in a car. This is before apps. Okay. There was. I just got my first email address, quite frankly. And first thing I did was I went to the bookstore and I bought a book called. I think I Still have It. Something like Road Trap, Road Eats or something like that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I was. Any state that I was in, I was going to stop at the restaurants, at these books. So I was already kind of, I don't know, probably secretly into that stuff without even thinking about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like, you know, some of the interesting places I saw that I would go out of my way to these small towns to eat at this, like, weird restaurant that's been around for, like, a hundred years. Yeah. Just to have, like a piece of fried chicken or cornbread or whatever. They're great, for sure. So that's. So I still have that book, but that's kind of like my interest in exploring also. You know, I had a per diem, so it wasn't like I could go out for steak dinners all the time. Right. I was like, you know, $35 a day, you're looking for, like, dive restaurants and this stuff. So wound up trying to start my own coupon website. That didn't go well. Went to work in sports radio 680, the fan had the most fun, really, I ever had selling Nick Chelini. He's there now. But back then, it was. We were a startup back then, and I was in charge of the Internet. And then they came to me and they said, billy, we need a salesperson because we're having trouble right now. So I just got in there. I was like, all right, we're going to do this, this. And my sales manager, Tim Roh, said, how are you getting these accounts? I said, I. We need the accounts. Right? Like, it wasn't. Wasn't like, how was I getting the accounts? I was like, oh, you said we. You said, we're struggling and we need accounts. Yeah, I'm doing my jobs and we're going to be creative because when you're, you know, when you're WSB750WSP, you don't have to be creative. You have all the listeners. Yeah, right. People are just handing you money left over right now. They phenomenal salespeople. The most well trained salespeople in the world work for Cox Communications. I never would have, I would have lasted there two seconds. Yeah, right. Because I just don't have that mentality of like following rules and, you know, I have to be able to color outside the lines. Yeah. And I would say, like, if you just let me do my thing, you're gonna, you're. You'll be the happiest sales manager of all time. If you get in my way, I won't be here very long.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So when I was at 680, David Dickey and my, and my boss Frankie, you know, they just said, look, Billy, just get out of Billy's way because he's, he needs to put food on the table.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He knows what he's doing.

[A]

Let him go.

[B]

Yeah. So just get out of my way.

[A]

If I stop, if, if, if I talk to you back then, was there any inkling at all that you were ever going to own a business if I asked you?

[B]

So I started traveling and we get them on these per diems and it was like bored out of my mind when I was traveling. So I'd go to like a burger place in LA or I go to a burger place in Chicago, wherever I was. And I don't know if Instagram's still like that now because I don't really do that very often. But, you know, I would reach out to people, say, hey, I'm gonna be in New York. I know you really like burgers, so can we, can we meet up for burgers? Right. And so they'd say, like, yeah, that's great. I'll get some other people. So I'd go to New York and there'd be ten of us meetups. And then I started meeting these people. And then they knew the restaurant owners and the chefs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it became like I, you know, then I just got more aggressive with my questioning. So one day we were at Emmy Squared in New York and the co founder, Matt Hyland, knew that. So the people I was at the table with, and I said, hey, man, can I see your kitchen? He's like, yeah, well, in New York, you know, kitchens are anywhere, right? Downstairs, upstairs, upstairs. It doesn't really matter where it is, Right. Wherever they can fit it. Right. So we go downstairs and I'm asking him all the questions about his burger. Why pretzel bun and how do you make the meat and what's special about your grill and all this stuff that is if you find people who really care about what they do, they want to share with everybody else who's. Anybody else who's interested. Right. So Matt was. And Matt and I are friends now. Matt is. So he was like, here's somebody who's really interested in how we do this. It's not just bring me my burger. You know, he's like, he's really wants to know more. And at this point, I wasn't even considering a restaurant. Sure. I was just like, yeah, here's a guy who's going to answer any question I have. It's incredible what year that was. I think 2015, maybe. Okay. Something like that. Then I started to meet more people. Went to the burger bash in Miami. Yeah.

[A]

All burgers. It sounds like it was all burger stuff. Always burgers, always burgers. You just.

[B]

Well, I figured I was gonna, like, pick a topic. Yeah. Learn how to use social media.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The more niche you are, seems the more. Not the better. The more. Not the more followers, but the. The more engaged followers qualified.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I just did burgers. Right. And then what started happening is I started traveling around other cities, and people got wind that I had an Instagram account. And so I would go visit a prospect or a client. They're like, hey, Billy, where'd you love burgers? We got a place here if you want to go for lunch. I was like, yeah, let's go for lunch.

[A]

So that's awesome.

[B]

We'd go to this place. And then when I started changing jobs, I'd had go on interviews, and the guy interviewing had heard from the recruiter that I had a burger account. And I love burgers. So I would go on these interviews, and they'd say, we're going for lunch. Where do you want to go for a burger? So it was like everybody kind of knew, no matter where I went, that I was into burgers. The problem is I didn't know how to make a burger. A terrible cook. Not even to call me a terrible cook could be even insulting to cooks. I didn't know how to do anything.

[A]

But something changed, clearly.

[B]

So I started. But. So I started asking more pointed questions. What kind of meat do you use? You know, how long do you. Do you know, what style of burger is it? Why do you use this bun?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's special? Like, why does this bun fall apart when you make it? You eat this kind of burger and then you get these explanations.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Well, the higher the fat. If you have this brittle bun, it'll break down, you know, whatever the answer is. So when I would go on these trips, I would go in a night early and I'd go have dinner and I'd go have a burger somewhere and I'd go talk to somebody. And if I went in that morning and I wouldn't schedule a meeting, I'd say, I'm going to museum. I gotta. I gotta like bring myself back to sanity.

[A]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[B]

If I made a burger, I wasn't just making burger for myself. I was like, can I make the best burger ever? All right, what does that take? Right. If I can make the best burger ever, can I make it for my family? Can I make it for my friends?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Could I make it for. Do I do it? Can I do a pop up? Could I do it in a restaurant?

[A]

What was that in the beginning? I want to pause there. To you, when you first set out to make the best burger, what. What were the details then? And I would love to.

[B]

Yeah, fast forward.

[A]

We'll compare them today.

[B]

Well, so the thing today is the details then. I mean, it was. I approached it from a certain point of view and that was, what do I hate? What are the things I hate about burgers?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm gonna fix those things. Yeah. So one thing I hate is like strips of bacon because they're always inconsistently cooked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. They either come out of the bacon or you're not getting. You know, you might get some bacon here, but this bite doesn't have bacon.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I was like, okay, I can solve that problem. I'm gonna use diced bacon and we're going to put bacon over the whole burger. That way there's bacon in every bite. Yeah. Same thing with mustard and sauce. Like a giant pet peeve is when you go to a restaurant and they talk about how great their sauce is. Right. And then like four bites into the burger, you're like, I don't. Where's the sauce? Right. And you're like, oh, got to it. Right. So if there's a. Right. So I want sauce here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I want mustard here. And. And I want the patty to fit the bun properly. Okay. Bun to meat ratio. Going out for a burger and asking for a medium rare, and then they're coming out. Well done. And you have to play this game with the chef three times. It's like, frustrating. All right, how do I get rid of that problem? All right? Smash Burgers don't have that problem. Okay? So truth be told, at the time, I wasn't, like, a Smash Burger fanatic. Like, I didn't really care what burger I got when I went somewhere, I just wanted to a take Tastes great.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. But I was like, okay, if I'm gonna play this game, how do I make it so no one can ever return their burger? Well, Smashburger accomplishes that, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I was like, okay, that's gonna be the burger I make, and this is gonna be how I do these things. It's how I'm gonna layer it. I said, but also, you know, there's Shake Shack and there's Steak and Shake, and there's all these places that do the same thing you said in the beginning. Like, how do you. It's a very crowded place, so how do you separate yourself? So I said, all right. It's got. It's got to taste different. It can't just be salt and pepper, okay? Because everybody does salt and pepper. If everybody's doing salt and pepper, then I'm not. I'm unnecessary.

[A]

Right? Okay.

[B]

So I called a buddy of mine. This is how stupid I am. This is how little I know about cooking. I called my buddy who makes a barbecue rub. Amazing. Yeah. Said, hey, Jeremy, talk to me about how you make your rub. He's like, all right, you got a pen and paper? I said, yeah, I'm writing this all down.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Go to the store. Go to the spice aisle, and find all the spices you like, and then mix them together, and that's your rub. Oh, my gosh. I was like, I'm such a. Too good to be true, though. I would have known, but it's a true story. I was just with Jeremy the other day, but I was. I mean, such a dumbass. Like, I'm the guy who, like, saw a recipe for aioli, right? And this really did happen. I went to Publix, and I was, like, buying all these ingredients. My buddy was with me. A different buddy. Jeff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's with me. We're buying all these ingredients. He's like, why don't you just buy mayonnaise and put some stuff in it? I was like, what? He's like, hey, all you're doing is making mayonnaise. But I'm following this instruction list of, like, you need eggs and you need oil, and you need this. And I'm going. I think it was Matt Hyland from Emmy. I just sent him a text. I go, is Ali just mayonnaise with other shit in it. And he's like, yeah, yeah.

[A]

See, you're the process guy, though, right?

[B]

So now I'm like, okay. I read Kenji Lopez Alt's book, the Food Lab. Not the whole book, because I don't really care about how you make eggplant. Yeah. But I read the part about burgers, and then there he's got a fry sauce. He's like, this is not my recipe. Take it. Make it your own. I did it. Make it your own. So I saw the recipe. I said, all right, well, it's got mayonnaise and ketchup and pickle juice and mustard in it. And it's got these other spices. So I swapped out the spices for my seasoning that I made, which took me 19 attempts to make. So the batch we get on our burger today is batch 19. Yeah.

[A]

That's cool.

[B]

So, yeah, so I made my sauce. I had my. My cousin, who's a chef, like, classically trained. Italy, you know, northern, southern Italy, all kinds of stuff. I had to make the recipe at home. He's like, all right, make these tweaks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, okay. And I made those tweaks. That's the sauce we have today. So. So it's like, make it my own. Make my own seasoning. How are we gonna make the burger that's gonna make it different? Well, the way we season the burger is different than it really. Anybody else does it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because again, I want everything in every bite. So everything we do is just focus on that one thing. We have four pickles. I can't tell you how frustrating it is when you get a burger and they, like, just drop all the pickles in one spot.

[A]

Right in the middle.

[B]

Right. Or they make. Give you two pickles.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or even three. Right. It's just, you know, it's about surface area. So, I mean, like, Kenji Lopez, he talks about surface area in his book all the time. Like, Crinkle Cut fries have more surface area. So when you see if you're going to do seasoned fries.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Crinkle Cut is great because it has more nooks and crannies for the seasoning to get in there. Right. More service area. So I hope I'm saying all that right or interpret it or. I interpreted it. Right Now I'm worried about these people listening to this for some reason. That's not even at all what happened. Yeah. Anyway, so. So that was it. So I started making that burger, and as I got a new batch of seasoning, I'd invite my Friends over?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I said, all right, next batch come over. And then it was like they would just wait. They knew a new batch was coming. They knew when I was in town it wasn't traveling.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Billy's home.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Burgers are coming soon.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then one day, my friend Jeff's wife, Karen said, well, Jeff told me, no, Karen won't eat burgers anymore. I was like, oh, my God, I made her sick. Like, I really thought, like, the way he said it didn't sound right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, oh, my God, did I make her sick? And she said, no, no, no. I didn't say that. Right. She will only eat your burger. She doesn't need any other burger anymore.

[A]

Oh, my goodness.

[B]

Oh, that's pretty cool.

[A]

But still no thought at this time having a restaurant?

[B]

No, not really. You sent him an email. Hey, can we chat?

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Is this receptionist is like, he's traveling, but Richard will talk to you. Richard's his coo, Right hand man, Richard Karain. And he got on the phone with me, and I said, hey, Richard, talk me out of the restaurant industry. He's like, well, what do you do? I said, I make a really good burger.

[A]

Interesting. What year are we in?

[B]

This is 2018.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So 18 years, almost exactly eight years ago, COO of Union Square Hospitality Group.

[A]

Talk me out of the restaurant. Yes.

[B]

It. Talk me out of the restaurant industry. Because I love it. Because what I learned in the magazine business was I asked all the wrong questions. Okay. I asked every. You know, wouldn't it be great if I did this? And I had all these people who are like, yeah, that sounds like a great idea. You're Billy cheerleaders. Yeah. To be happy. Right. And you can't do that. So this time I went the other way.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

What do you hate about the restaurant industry? Because if I could get through all that. Yeah, I can. Then I. Then I can make the decision of whether or not I can handle it.

[A]

What did he say? I'm dying to hear this.

[B]

He just. He actually was pretty interesting. He said, well, how good's your burger? I said, it's really good. He said, you should open one.

[A]

And even though you asked him to

[B]

talk you out of it. Yeah. Then we had another conversation because he said, you know, tell me about this documentary. It was about Danny Meyer opening two restaurants at the same time. He was going to open 11 Madison and Tabula Taboola. I can't remember the name of it. And there were two drastically different restaurants, but they shared, like, the back space together. And so he was. Had this concept and he just spent so much money. And the whole documentary is like, God, what was that movie with Michael Douglas where he was trying to build his house? The Roses, War of the Roses, Michael Douglas and Kathleen Turner. It was like that. It was like every. Everything was bad was happening inside these two restaurants, and he couldn't. And so I really wanted to say, to ask him was like, why? Right? And I know the answer. Not from him. Here's the answer in the restaurant industry. Here's the other thing I learned. If you do it once, you think you can't fail. Okay. So he's got Gramercy Tavern, and it's highly regarded and it's Michelin, whatever, right? It's all these things, right? It's the best restaurant in New York. So you're like, oh, I'm really good at this.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Of course. I can't fail.

[A]

Do it again.

[B]

Right? So I'm going to do again. And if you see, like, all these. I call the owner's paradox, because you see all these restaurants, Top chefs, man. Great. Here, open another place fails miserably. It. Because they're not. I don't know. I don't know in their scenario why it happens, but I have a guess, and that is they don't really understand why their business was successful. They don't think about it as deep as they should and go, okay, what are the elements that made this successful? And do those elements exist over here? So it could be location, it could be type of food, it could be the chef or a variety of things. Right. But so if you're not thinking about those things, you're just like, oh, well, I have a steak place. I'm going to open a fish place. Yeah, right.

[A]

And it's going to do great.

[B]

It's going to do great because I'm. I was on TV and I know everything about restaurants. Right. Or, you know, whatever it is. Right. So that's why I ask these questions to these people. It's like, I need to know what I need to know about your failures. I know. I can see the greatness. Yeah, right.

[A]

That's easy.

[B]

That's everywhere. That's in the New York Times and in Bon Appetit and, you know, every article on the web, I need to know the failure. Because those are usually the things that are not out in public. So one of the questions I'll ask is a guy named Dan Van Low, works for Rocket Farm, which is Super Rica Little Ray Optimus.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's their coo.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I see him about once a year at this conference and I ask him the same question. Every year. I see two questions. What's the one thing that you thought was going to be great that failed? And what's the one thing you thought was going to fail that's great. Okay. And I always ask people those questions. I was doing it when I was in media, the CMO of Pepsi. I was at a conference asking the same. I will always ask you those two questions.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because that's how you start thinking about things in the, in the right way. Like, okay, well, I thought this was going to be great and it failed. So now I no longer think that things. The reason we do well.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

In this other thing, you know, so you just like approaching things from different angles. So that's kind of like the questions I'll ask you. Richard Korrain. So after I got off the phone with Richard, I said, all right, I'm gonna do a pop up. And so I went and found a place. I had this like crazy Instagram following. Yeah, they've been watching me make burgers online. You know my account, right. So I'm feeling like, okay, I could sell like 50 of these at a pop up. Right. Found a place. Bad Elm Brewing in Sandy Springs. Convince them to let me have their kitchen. I have never used a kitchen. Okay, right.

[A]

Commercial kitchen, Waddle, grill, Grill or every.

[B]

The whole kitchen. Okay.

[A]

Oh, you get the whole thing.

[B]

Excuse me. I said I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do a pop up.

[A]

What was that?

[B]

Battle. Battle and Brew.

[A]

Battle and brew still there.

[B]

It's insane. Springs.

[A]

Okay. Gotta be.

[B]

It's like a gamer bar with like an upscale. Not upscale, like a better menu. Like, it's not a fast food, like, like, but with like real chefs, like real doing real things. It's a gamer bar. So it's kind of interesting place to have like really high quality food. And so I went in there, the guy's like, well, look, you have this Instagram account. Why don't you just invite people here? We already make burgers. I said, that's not what this is about. This is about to see if I can use a kitchen and do I like it.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And they said, well, you know, we can't just do that unless you. We know what your food's like. I said, hey, that's great. I brought some with me. So can we go use your kitchen? I was like, yeah, go back there and make a burger. I've always felt bad for this chef. I don't know his name. But the general manager takes a bite of my burger. He goes, this is the best burger I've ever had. Right in front of the chef, who makes all the food for this.

[A]

And he makes burgers too.

[B]

Yeah, well, he makes. Not only that, he makes smash burgers. Oh. But he, like, you know, let me tell you about this chef. So this is like. Like, they did. They did, like, a Game of Thrones night. So they have, like, a whole Game of Thrones menu. And this chef is like, we're doing turkey legs made with this. We're doing drinks made with, you know, fancy stuff. Like, I could never do any of that. So I'm like, I'm in awe of the chef and what he can do. And then this, you know, the general manager is like, that's the best burger I ever had. I was like, oh, man, that guy. That's got to be a kick in the gut, right? So. But we set it up. They. They supplied all the staff. I brought the meat. I said, look, I'm going to bring everything. You keep all the money. I don't want any of the money.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I bring the meat, the buns, everything. Yeah, you just staff it. And I just need to see how this works. It was horrible. Not. It was horror. I would talk. I call it a glorious disaster.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I love that word. They let everybody in at once.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They started taking orders all at once. And they were only doing. They thought that, like, people would order off the menu. I'll get nachos, I'll get a drink. They were only ordering my burger. Everybody there was there for my burger.

[A]

Oh, geez.

[B]

The rail. I mean, I kid you not. It was like the length of the bar, and it was just like, burger, burger, burger, burger, burger, burger, burger. Oh, my gosh. It took. There were 50 tickets on the rail before the first non burger came in. The grill is this big. It's not a thermostatic grill. I didn't even know what that meant at the time, but I meant every time you put cold meat on it, the temperature drops. You need a certain temperature to smash a burger, so it never got back up to that temperature. So after the first, like, 10 burgers, every burger just sucked. It was terrible. Also, you had the kitchen got all these tickets, and kitchens generally are built on speed. Right. Okay. It's just like, you can't have high ticket times. Can't have high ticket times. So we never got the grill up. And then we started doing things with the meat and the seasoning that shortcuts. But it wound up making the burgers bad. Like, too salty. Yeah. And so I get home, that. And, oh, by the way, the 51st order, then I was nachos. It turns out it was my son. He was the only one that night to order not order a burger because he was like, well, I eat your burgers all the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I wanted nachos. I was like, all right, I can't. I get that. He was 8:12 at the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So anyway, so I get home and I've got this big grin on my face. My wife's like, how was it? I'm like, it was terrible. Now, I've known my wife since high school, right? Since 1980. Well, no, since 1986. But dating since 1989. She knows me better than anybody. She's like, I don't understand. You have this big smile on your face. And I said, oh, it was terrible, but I could fix it all. I know I can make it all better. And I loved it. And so the next morning, I'm on the phone with people who make griddles. I'm like, all right, tell me about thermostatic griddles. What makes a good one? What makes a bad one? Tell me about fryers. What's a good recovery time? Bad recovery time. How does a perfect fry get made? And, yeah, and that's. It was like, game on. Right now I have no job because I've just been fired, like, 30 days earlier. And so now I'm like, you know, in this deep, deep mode. And again, I go back to this conversation I had with this actor the other day last couple weeks ago, which is like, if I had had something interesting in high school, I could have been doing this much longer. I just wasn't interested in any of that. But if you had said, billy, we're going to go learn how to run a restaurant, like, that would have been awesome. Right? We're gonna learn about grills and how a perfect burger gets made and how this. That would have been amazing. Right? I just didn't. That just wasn't how that worked back then. So I just took this deep dive into it and started doing pop ups and was invited to go to the Tour Championship and be. Do a pop up there. I got struck by lightning. That was fun. You can Google it. Google Billy Kramer lightning.

[A]

No way.

[B]

Yeah, that was fun.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

The best is my buddy was in, like, London and he sends me a text. He's like, billy, look at that golf cart in the back. It Gets when the lightning strikes. The cart blows up in the air and the guy goes flying out of it. I was like, yeah, that was me.

[A]

No way.

[B]

Yeah. He's like, really? I was like, he's like, yeah. My friend took the video. My friend's at the tournament, and he sent it to me in London. And that's you? Yeah. Pretty funny. Anyway, that's awesome. So did Pop Ups Cafe opened inside the gas station in Dunwoody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My friend who's in the restaurant industry, Daryl Dollinger, he runs the franchise groups, owns franchise groups for Flying Biscuit and Cinnaholic.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I become friendly with him. He said, billy, you got to take that cafe over. I said, I don't know how that works. We didn't even take it over. They just open. It's their. Mean, it's their business. I'm just gonna walk in there and, yeah, tell the guy to move over. I got this. So I went in, had a burger. The general manager, Sunny, who's still the general manager of the Chevron, he came up to me. He's like, what did you think of the burger? I said, it's okay. He's like, well, what would make it better? I said, look, man, I'm the wrong guy to ask you. You can't be trying to please me because I'm. I'm a burger person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I wasn't. I don't like, aficionado, but I was like, look, that's kind of my thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And it's unfair for me to tell you how to make your burger. He said, no, no, no, I want to know. I said, how about I just make you one? He's like, okay. So I go back there. I don't have any of my stuff. Yeah, make a mixed seasoning real quick and make a burger. And he's like, yeah, this is way better. So he introduces me to the owner of the Chevron and Saleem. I go sit with Salim in his office over north side of Powers Ferry or north side in Paces Ferry. So I'm at his desk and then I had to be sales guy because I'm trying to get the cafe. Okay. So now I have to be sales guy. Aw, shucks, hamburger guy. So I just looked at him, I said, wouldn't it be cool if the best burger in the world was made in your gas station? And he started laughing. And I was like, no, I'm dead serious. He's like, oh, well, that would be pretty cool. I'll tell you what, my son's gonna Come to your pop up tonight. I said, all right, great. Next morning, he calls me and said, my son said, that's the best burger he's ever had. So about three months later, he called me, said, would you like to take over the cafe? Yeah. And so that's how we started. That was it. Game on. And now.

[A]

Okay, so what was December.

[B]

That was December 3, 2019.

[A]

You're. You're. Now you're really off to the races

[B]

because you got your spot. Yeah. All right. But, I mean, I didn't put any of the. It was just. I walked in, I'd been sick. I didn't know I was sick leading up to that. A week before, I was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis. And the way that disease attacks me, attacks people, similar manner, but particularly me. The high inflammation just drives me into the ground. And I didn't. I probably had it for a year and had no clue. And a lot of it's from stress, and I was out of work, and I hated my career. I was in. And it's all these. Struck by lightning. All these things are just like, we have no money. I have friends who want to invest in a business. I have financing if I need it, but we personally have no money. Sure. And got diagnosed. I was on medication for, like, three days before I started feeling better, like, almost instantly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I just told my wife, I said, December 2nd, I said, I'm going in tomorrow to cook. She's like, okay, so you're gonna pick up on a theme here. So I go in, I come home, I got this big smile on my face. She's like, how was it? I go, I made three burgers today. Sounds like $30.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she's like, you know, we kind of. Kind of needs to be better than that. Yeah. And I said, I know, but this is. We're good. Yeah. All three people really liked it. So the next day, we did like, 10.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Next day, we did, like, 35. That third day was the first time I had my sale at. My manager, he had called me. I'd worked with him at a pop up, and he called me and said, billy, can I come work? Work for you? So, yeah, sure. I don't know. I didn't think. I wasn't even there. I wasn't even like, oh, I need an. I could use an employee. Sure. Why not? Sure. Shows up. So day one, three burgers. Day five, 125, out of control. Nightmare scenario.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Me and my manager, the only ones making the burgers. My son, who's 12 is on the grill. No, he's 14 at the time. Yeah, he's on register. Okay. We were going to handwrite notes on all the bags.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like Starbucks, you know, we were like, hey, thanks, Jimmy.

[A]

Thanks. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That went out the window in about five seconds. Because now we just have stacks of bags. We have no RAILS system. We have no receipts.

[A]

Right.

[B]

No, nothing. We're just. We're literally like. My son would be like, double, you know, combo.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. That's a burger. Two combos. Okay. It's two burgers and two fries. Right. You know, that's how it went. Stack of people waited an hour in line and an hour to get their food.

[A]

Unreal.

[B]

I was like, okay, I can fix all this.

[A]

Right. There's that fee.

[B]

Right. I always felt like, you know, Sean Penn at Fast Times at Ridgemont High. Well, I gotta. My dad's got a great set of tools.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was. I know. I can fix it. So by that next Tuesday. That was Saturday. Closed Sunday, Monday. By Tuesday, I had printers. Square receipt printers. The tablet was set up differently. Yeah. You know, it was all just different. Right. So almost instantly more efficient just from a quick. Some. Some tweaks. And that's kind of how we've done it every day since. There's no day where, like, people would see me by the grill cooking, and I would turn around and I have this, like, vacant look in my face. Like I'm not like. Almost like I'm asleep inside my head.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. But my eyes are open. Sure. And they said, billy, what's going on? I was like, no, no, I see something over there. We're gonna have to fix that. You know where. I'm like, okay, that's not. But it was all in my head. Right. I wasn't, like, saying out loud, like, well, that's stupid, or whatever. I was just constantly just fixing things in my head, like, okay, we can't fix it now. I'm also a big fan of that. Like you, at some point, the ship sail has sailed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you can't fit. Like, I couldn't go get a printer in the middle of it Saturday. I was like, okay, this is where we are today. We're going to make the best of it. It'll be fixed tomorrow. Right. And so that's kind of like how we do this. If we can fix it in the moment, we will. Yeah, Right. If there's something wrong with. I'm going to make something up. Something wrong with the mustard. I'll just go buy a new Mustard. Right. I can fix that thing in the moment. Sure. Okay. But I can't get new equipment in the moment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's kind of like how we operate every day. It's like, okay, you know, it's just little improvements here and there and never stop, never be settled. About three months in, Covid hit. So now you've got a guy who has no interest, no experience running a restaurant, is now dealing with a pandemic. We quickly just made adjustments. We're like, okay, we're going to move the cashier over here. We're going to keep people outside. I have a friend's family who does plexiglass. They made us the plexiglass barriers. So we just got fortunate. The AJC stopped doing food reviews during COVID but Wendell Brock had. He was their food critic, and he's like, well, I need to do stuff.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So they changed the focus. So they started, you know, the Elena magazine started highlighting restaurants that were great in takeout. And here we are. All we do is take that.

[A]

So unique how you do it, too. Walking out to the car, the picnic tables. I mean, it's.

[B]

Yeah. So it's funny. We get complaints about it sometimes.

[A]

You do?

[B]

They wouldn't let me wait inside. I'm like, it's the greatest part of your life. Order food, go sit down, read the paper.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Play a game on your app. Walk your dog, do whatever you want. We're gonna bring your food to you. Isn't that great? It's awesome. I think it's great.

[A]

I love it. Kids love it, too.

[B]

People get, like, so bent out of shape sometimes over the weirdest things.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Anyway, so Wendell Brock wrote an article in the ajc. It just went like this, you know? And then Food and Wine put us as the best burger in Georgia. Went like that.

[A]

That's incredible.

[B]

It's just.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and. And then when you think, like, you're out of things, you can win, you know, I love a Michelin. And first off, I don't. That's not even a possibility for me. Like, wow, somebody. When the first Michelins came out, they said, bill, you didn't get it? What was it? A bib gourmand. I was like, why would I get a big gourmand? Like a burger joint, a gas station? Right? No, no, you deserve one. I'm like, no, I don't think they do. So many other people out there doing. Doing chef, like, culinary experiences. Right. And I'm okay with that. Like, I'm not, you know, but you start thinking, like, oh, there are things out there we. We might. We're like, in that. We're in that area now. So we just recently came back from Miami. We were invited to be in the burger Bash, which I'd been to as a guest 10 years earlier.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I'd seen Matt Hyland and Emmy squared back there cooking 1500 burgers and sweating and loving it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Having a drink while he's doing it and having the best time. And I remember seeing Guy Fieri and all these people just killing it and having the best time. And then this past October, I got invited to it. I'm like, I don't what the heck is happening here? There was two choices. There was winner, peoples and judges.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, we had a lot of chefs looking at us during our setup. And we're dressed. I mean, if you look around here, see how we're dressed. Yeah. That's how we were dressed. They've won these awards, and this guy won a Michelin. And this guy is James Beard. And this guy. This guy. And here we are just Brett, my coo is just setting up the booth for speed. So it's just all about consistency and speed. We don't need it to look great. I always tell everybody, like, we're a Pinto with a Ferrari engine, not a Ferrari with a Pinto engine. Okay. So I don't really care what it looks like from the outside. When it gets in front of you, we're going to kick you where you kick your ass. Yeah. So he said he, Brett set up this great setup. And all of a sudden, the chef started coming and looking at how we were just like, burgers were just coming out left and right and like that. Yeah, that was a good idea. Yeah, that was a good idea. Yeah, we should have done that. And then we know. Next thing you know, we're on stage. My daughter's got the giant check, $2,500, and I've got this 20 pound trophy.

[A]

Yeah. That you walked around with.

[B]

Yeah, we walked around. All around. All around South Beach. Like we won an Oscar. Yeah. And so, like, every time we think, like, we've run out of, like, a little Runway to get some more publicity, it's something. We put ourselves in a position to do it. The sad thing is, is all the restaurants who are really good that can't find their way into it to get that little pop to get them successful. That's why you ask what the hat is. The giving kitchen. I spent a lot of time trying to raise money for it. Because it's a lot of restaurant people out there who are struggling. I'm just trying to figure out any way we can to help keep these people in the industry. You want people. You know, I. I hate kiosks. I hate QR code ordering. I just do. It's impersonal. I get it. As a labor control. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just impersonal. We're in the hospitality business. Right? Like, I want people, when they come here to be happy. I want people to be. I don't know. They spent their money. They can go spend their money anywhere. I want to enjoy it.

[A]

I love that your flare is on it. Like, now when I see those things, they're. They're from you. Yeah, that's. You've pulled the corporate. The corporate piece out of it, so to speak.

[B]

If we see something's wrong in somebody's plate, we don't ask them if they want another one. We go get another one. It's like little things like that, like not negotiating with your customer for their. For happiness. Like, I'm going through with one of my vendors right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're like, how do you want to be taken care of? No, that's not how that works. How do you think you should take care of me?

[A]

Right. So what's the ketchup thing? This is probably such a basic question.

[B]

All right. Two things. One is. Well, three things. One is my grandfather. My parents are from Chicago.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I always say people. I'm like, I'm Tom Cruise in Days of Thunder. Right. Not that I'm Tom Cruise, but point is, it's like, I don't know any of the lingo.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, I don't know what rubbing is and all that stuff and all that, you know, like, here's what I know. It tastes good or it doesn't taste good. Yeah. Okay. I don't need the culinary aspect of it. Yeah. I don't know that. Like, when I built my burger, I was like, oh, they're sweet, and there's savory, and there's acid, and there's. Yeah, you know, that's good. Or not. My friends are chefs because, like, oh, my God, you can taste this. You know, all these elements that make food great. And I'm like, yeah, I just like it to taste good. Right. So, you know, so that's just kind of. It doesn't need ketchup. The ketchup's in the sauce, by the way. Ketchup, mayonnaise, pickle juice, mustard and seasoning but if you remember my conversation earlier about mayonnaise, it's eggs and oil. Right. So I can make the elements that create ketchup, and I can put sugar and vinegar and whatever and tomatoes in there. Or I could just buy ketchup. Yeah. And start from there. So I always say ketchup's a shortcut. I don't need to put all mayonnaise is a shortcut.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Ketchup's a shortcut. Okay. There's just a way to take all these things that somebody else already put together and then create something else. Right. The things that aren't shortcut. Mustard.

[A]

And mustard's on it.

[B]

Mustards. But we have mustard in the sauce. But it's. It provides a different, you know, flavor profile to it. Again, words I never thought of using. Flavor profile. And. Yeah, it's just, you know, I kind of just honestly walked ass backwards into something because I just grew up loving burgers, which is. That's it.

[A]

So what's the word?

[B]

What.

[A]

What do you credit it to? Like, looking back now, is it just because you were so naive and you just got into an industry and said, I'm going to just do it my way? What would you really credit it to?

[B]

I'll say what I say to everybody. Whenever. Whenever I'm asked a question about why we're successful, I give the same answer. That's all right, buddy.

[A]

Oh, you're good.

[B]

Yeah. Hey, Ryan. How are you, man? We don't.

[A]

We don't edit anything out of here either. It stays in. You're good?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. We're on camera. All right.

[A]

I want to.

[B]

I gotta.

[A]

I gotta hear this. I'm dying to hear this. What you credit it to.

[B]

We all have one thing in common. That's. We all give a. Okay. We all want you to have the best product possible. We only have the best experience possible. It's why reviews. Negative reviews are really frustrating. Because it's not that I can't take constructive criticism. It's that there's never any constructive criticism. And it's never somebody who's. Come and talk to me. If you can talk to me, I will make you. I'll make you happy. We had a guy here the other day I came up to. He's from St. Louis. Went to his table, said, how is it? He's like, it's okay. What's wrong with it? Well, it's okay. I said, no, that's not. That's not the normal response we get. What's matter? He said, well, it's really salty. I said, okay, I got you covered. I went back in, I said, I need a double. Less. Less seasoning. No sauce, light sauce, light seasoning on the fly. Bring it back out. He takes a bite. I said, how is it? He's like, ah, this is great. I said, so the next time you're in a restaurant and you don't like something, give the restaurant the chance to make it up to you, because we all want you to have a great experience. Right. So when you're. You know, when I'm winning that trophy and I'm on stage, stage, and they're asking me what makes. Makes our burger great, we all did a great job that night. Okay. Like, I got lucky because Gayle King really likes a simple cheeseburger. Yeah. Okay. She likes the simple elements of the crispiness and the flavors and not too much stuff. Right. And I got lucky that Bert Kreischer loves just a cheeseburger. Right. You know, if you liked truffles, I would have lost.

[A]

You would have lost. Yeah.

[B]

So, you know, this other. The one next to us would have won. Right. So also, there's like a, you know, a little bit luck of the draw. But the reality is everybody there that night at the Burger Bash made a great burger.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, we just made the burger the judges liked. Right. So great. That's awesome. Yeah. And I will take it. I'm not going to downgrade my win. I love it. But so I think, like, again, anywhere you go, if it's your favorite pizza, it's not happenstance that it's good pizza. The guy making it cares about how great the pizza is and doesn't just

[A]

say it as a word. We care.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's easy to do.

[B]

Well, you know, it's like elf. You know, the funny scene where it's like the world's greatest cup of coffee. Right. Like, Or Tommy boy, where they say something like, you know, why do they put guarantee on the box? You know, I can take it to open a box and market. Guaranteed. I have spare time. Yeah, right. Like, if you have to tell somebody, it's great, or that it's guaranteed or all this stuff, you've probably lost the battle at that point. Because when you bite into it, they'll know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, if you tell somebody it's a great cup of coffee and they drink it, it stinks. They're gonna like, oh, it's a crappy cup of coffee. Right, Right. So just make your coffee. If somebody really loves it, you'll. You'll know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You'll know. And by the way, you can go to, like a steak and shake and have an amazing burger if the guy on the grill, the person on the grill cares about how well it was cooked and how well it was plated. Yeah, okay. And by the way, you know, sometimes I catch guys in the kitchen taking a shortcut and I'll look at the. So we have a rule. You square. It's called squaring the cheese. I don't even know if that's an industry phrase. I.

[A]

For me, I love it.

[B]

Anyway, so you take the patty of the cheese and then you put it right over the other patty with the cheese so it's all perfectly together. It's like the OCD element in my brain.

[A]

Yeah, love it.

[B]

But sometimes we get a guy who's like, in a hurry, he thinks being in a hurry is okay, and he'll just put that down and it'll be like, kind of cockeyed off. Yeah, right. I'm like, right. It takes as much time to do it right as it does to do it wrong, so let's just do it right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So then when some. Let me look at the. If you not going to see this on there, There's a painting right there, a woman did, that's based on a picture that I sent her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. But if that's. The cheese is symmetrical and the sauce covers and the pickles cover and. Yeah. You know, I mean, you're getting everything in every bite.

[A]

In every bite.

[B]

And so that's.

[A]

That's cool.

[B]

I mean, that's just. That's the basic part of it. So I, I think. But it's not as easy as to say, like, if you just give a crap, then you're gonna win. Right. There's so many other elements to this business. It's a math problem. It's more a math problem than it is a quality problem, quite frankly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Interesting. So the world is littered with Michelin star restaurants that have gone out of business. They don't understand the math. Right. They're so focused on how great the meal is and how expensive, you know, like using the best ingredients and all this stuff that they forget that, like, you have to be profitable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So I'm not saying use inferior ingredients. I'm saying they're like, if you ever watch the movie Chef, you're just like, yeah, yeah, that's. That thing's too expensive. You want to eat, you want to make or whatever it is. Right? Yeah.

[A]

So it's science and art.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, Look, I use ground beef. I don't use wagyu meat, and I don't use triple blend this or whatever that. We use ground beef. No, we've tested every ground beef in the market, and we use the one that has the right. That's made to our specs. Sure. We use American cheese. Sorry if it offends you. Okay. Yeah, but it's. Every chef on the planet will say, like, yeah, that's really the best cheese for a cheeseburger. Like, for a simple cheeseburger. Yeah. So, you know, just. We use a Martin's potato roll. Not a brioche bun. Not a handmade milk bun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now you can go to my buddy's place in Cleveland, Cordelia, and that burger is amazing. And he makes the buns in house. He's. That's his. Wow. That's the way he wants to do it.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And it's phenomenal. Yeah. Okay. I. Burger, to me, is about my childhood more than anything. So it's about, like, after school, when I would go to McDonald's, you know, with my brother or my sisters or my father, my mother, whoever picked me up, or, you know, taking my kid for burgers. Like, that burger is simple. Right. That burger is not truffles and gruyere cheese on a brioche bun. That burger was probably crappy cheese.

[A]

Right.

[B]

God knows what the ground beef was. Right. And that was like, your childhood memory of, like, hanging out with your dad or whoever. You did it with your buddies after school. Right. That's what this burger is. This burger is not supposed to be fancy. It's supposed to just taste good.

[A]

It's awesome. So how do the big guys get it wrong then? When they. When they are getting it wrong?

[B]

I think we're better than the 300th Shake Shack.

[A]

But the originals.

[B]

But are we better than the original? That's right across from Danny Meyer's office. Right. In Madison Square Park. That's a great. Probably, you know, that's a probably pretty tough hill to climb. Right? You're better than Holman and Finch, man. Are we better than the Holman and Finch 15 years ago, when, you know, they have the top chefs, you know, Michelin star chefs making 20 burgers a night.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Handing them out. Right. I mean, probably. You know, are we as good? Yeah, I think we're as good as all those guys. My point is, is, like, you know, they've all grown their businesses and they're making money and they're doing all these things, you know, and it's easy. Like, I Always tell people you can make. Anybody can make a brisket. Anybody. Okay. You can watch Aaron Franklin's masterclass video on how to trim and put a smoker brisket. Okay, now try to. Now try and do it 80 times and day. Okay, try doing it 80 times a day, five days a week. Yeah. Okay. That's way different than with you out

[A]

of it, because you're gonna have to be out of it at some point.

[B]

That's a way different business. Right. So that's why, like, a lot of times, like Lewis Barbecue expanding to Atlanta and he's got one in Greenville, and the quality seems to be very good. That's really hard, difficult to do. That's why most barbecue places don't have more than one. One.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because to find somebody who's going to smoke for 14 hours and who cares as much as you do and is. Is. Is really difficult to find. Right. So as we. Those big guys aren't necessarily getting it wrong. They've just changed their focus of what success is. You know, I'm sure Danny Meyer would like to walk into a shake shack and salt Lake and go, it's just as good as the one in Madison Park. But he knows. He knows the odds of that are pretty close to zero.

[A]

Pretty close to zero.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it's like you're playing the 80%. If we can get it. 80%.

[B]

It's about, you know, it's.

[A]

What are you seeing when you look at.

[B]

I'm trying to grow the business. I'm trying to find the right real estate. About the math. It's about the math.

[A]

Georgia.

[B]

Georgia first. I think by the time it gets out of Atlanta metro, I'll probably won't be a part of the company anymore. Well, not running it. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I was 25, I'd have 100 of these, and they would probably suck. Okay. They just would. But I'd be rolling at money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. I'm not rolling your money. I can tell you that right now.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But at this point in my life, you know, I probably have like 20 good years left. I'm 53. I probably have, I might say, good years. I'm gonna die. But I mean, like, you know, 20 years of doing stuff.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, good traveling and hopefully a grandkid or two or something. Right. At some point. But I have no desire to die in the kitchen. And I don't. I'm not motivated. I'm not motivated by the things I used to be motivated by.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it turns out I probably wasn't Always motivated by those things either. I was never motivated by money. I just knew I needed it. But I was never motivated by vacation homes or vacations or giant diamond rings. I just don't care. I'm motivated. Like, at this point in my life, I'm, like, motivated by how somebody feels. And they eat a burger. Are they really happy? Are they really disappointed? You know, like. And what can I do to, like, that's motivating to me? Like, that's like instant gratification. Yeah, I can fix that. Again, another theme throughout this thing. It's like when there's something broken, like, okay, okay, can I fix it? Okay. And I think those big guys, they. It's not that they're disinterested in fixing things. There's just so many layers to fix it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. Yeah. And you got to fix it. It's like, well, you got to call Jimmy. Then Jimmy's got to call Frank, and Frank's got to call Jennifer, and you got to. Yeah. Then you got to do this thing. And I just walk in and go. Yeah, can you just go to the store and get a screwdriver? Right. Like, do we have to call maintenance for this? Do we have a screwdriver?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and I think that's, like, where these big companies get into. So the trick is, can we grow to a point where I can do something generationally for my family financially without. It won't be me doing it. Sure. I want to set it up. My coo. That's why he's here. Most businesses like mine wouldn't have a clo.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They would have a general manager, and then I'd be running both. And I never interested. Me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If that was the way it was going to be, I just want one. And I'd be. I'll be happy.

[A]

Happy. Which. So what's your favorite thing in all of it, now that you understand the business side of it, the food side? What do you love doing every single day? Your one thing.

[B]

The one thing I love doing is I like coming into the restaurant. I like talking to customers. Yeah. Hey, how'd you get here? That's how I met you. Right. You're walking around with a trophy. Yeah, but, like, I'm. I'm.

[A]

You're an ambassador.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that's the motivational part. And I love when businesses call me and ask me for help, ask me for advice. I love helping small businesses.

[A]

Such as, like, who. Like, who's.

[B]

I would name. I wouldn't name a restaurant, but, like, you know, There was, like, a wing place called me about four years ago, and he was struggling, and he and his wife thought they might have to shut down. And so I said, all right, let's talk about it. Yeah, let's go through the math. I always start with the math, okay. Because you can buy better food. Okay. You can buy a better piece of equipment, but if you don't understand how the math stacks up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this is all you have to know Jack. And Jack in the Box exists. Okay. Go read their Yelp reviews. There's not one of them that has over two stars. Okay. Yet they have, like, a thousand locations. And their stocks, you know, they're. They make a ton of money. Right? So it's just math. Wow.

[A]

Right? Yeah.

[B]

I think the McDonald's CEO who just got, you know, roasted for not knowing how to eat a sandwich, he's doing just fine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. His golden parachute is going to put him on an island.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Oh, yeah. So he's doing just fine. Right. But this, you know, this husband and wife called me, and, yes, we're running into a problem. I said, what are you charging for wings? And they told me. I said, all right, you know, your Competitors all charge $0.50 more a wing. I said, but then we won't sell any wings or we won't sell any. I said, well, which way do you want to go out of business? You want to spend your money and not make it back, or do you want to not have any customers? You pick the choice, because you're going out of business either way. So just pick a path. But I know the one thing, this path isn't working. This is the other path. You gotta try. So I said, give me your square password. I'm gonna go in. I'm changing all your pricing. So we sat on the phone that night for an hour, went through the cost of everything they do. He says, well, what do I charge for lemonade? Four times what it costs. And then he'd say, like, what do I charge for this? Four times what it costs. You see the pattern? Okay. Four times, okay? Because this is what the fourth. This is what the four elements pay for. Okay? And that last one is yours. Okay? It's rent, it's labor. It's this. This food cost. That last quarter is yours.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Changed it all. The next morning. He's like, billy, I just. I don't know about this. I said, just do it. One day calls me that night, we sold out. I said, yeah, and guess What? You made 30% more money.

[A]

Oh, my Gosh.

[B]

From just.

[A]

Which is his piece. So he made it. Yeah.

[B]

Right. Still in business four years later. Really great. So, you know, things like that or. I think the biggest challenge we have in this industry is we don't communicate with each other, and so we don't know that we're going through similar things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's even more impressive that he listens to you and goes, oh, I think he might. You know, he might be right.

[A]

And gives you your pass, the password,

[B]

change all the pricing and. But it worked, you know, and he's. So I get a lot of calls from people about. And I try and talk them all out of it. Not starting a business, not starting a restaurant. Not that guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, you know what? My advice. Never owned a restaurant. I'm not that guy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's a person who's, you know, jaded and probably did some stupid things or is it treating their employees right or whatever they're doing right? Sure. You know, like somebody who's like, man, I can't ever keep an employee. It's like. Yeah, but you probably should look in the mirror. Right. Because I. I don't lose employees with that money. Right. So I don't know what to tell you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I didn't have one person during COVID check.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Didn't have one person. Yeah, they all came. They came to work every day, and I didn't. It's cool. They came to work every day. So, you know, if you treat people right and. And take care of them and care about them like family.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, they're gonna come back. They're working. Work.

[A]

Do you still have that Instagram handle?

[B]

The one that sort of.

[A]

I'll say. Got it all started.

[B]

Billy's Burgers.

[A]

Yeah, Billy's work.

[B]

I never use it. What do you. Oh, okay. I can't remember the last time I posted to it. Yeah.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Because it's sort of. That was the. That was my research. That was where I would go out and eat burgers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I just don't have the bandwidth to run multiple accounts.

[A]

What if somebody wants to get a hold of you now? Just go through the website or. What do you do?

[B]

Website, NFA Burger. I answer all the Instagram messages. Oh, you do?

[A]

Oh, that's cool.

[B]

I answer all the emails that come through the form on the website. I've never turned down a conversation with anybody who's asked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Whether it's good or bad. So call and ask. And if I, you know, if you ask me for help. Yeah, that's All I will say that if you ask somebody for help, they're going to give it to you whether you. You know, so you have to. You have to really want it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Right. If you ask somebody for. It's like chat CPT. Yeah. If you ask ChatGPT question, it's never going to not give you an answer. Right, Right. It's always going to give you an answer. You don't know if it's right or wrong. Right. It's like Cliff Clavin is running chat GPT and just spouting out, you know, answers. So. Cheerleading. Right. So. Yeah. And I'm not your cheerleader. Like, I'm like, I told the guy with the wing business, like, which way do you want to go out of business? That's a great. I spoke to Richard Korrain back to that. A couple years ago, I finished Danny Meyer's book. I didn't read it. I hate reading. I did the audiobook reading puts me asleep, so. Which is probably another reason I did really well in high school.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I sent him a text. I found a cell phone number online, and I sent him a text, and I said, hey, Billy Kramer, NFA Burger Atlanta. I'd love to chat with you about setting the table. I have all these questions, just like I did the first time when I watched the documentary.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But this time, I went to his cell phone. I didn't email him. And it was him. It turns out it was him. And he said. And he said, yeah, call my secretary. Text my secretary and our email, and we'll set up a call. So I get on the call, and Richard was on the call. So now it's Richard and Danny and myself on this zoom call. And before Danny got on the call, Richard goes, you know, Billy, if you win any more awards, you're gonna need to build another house. And I was like, richard, I don't understand. How do you. What do you. I'm NFA Burger. You're Shake Shack. You're.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're beyond wealthy at this point.

[A]

Right.

[B]

What do you. You know? How do you know anything about us? He's like, we know all about you. And I was like, that's the coolest thing anyone's ever said to me. I don't know if Richard's selling. I'm assuming he's selling the truth, but, yeah. Yeah, we were at Burger Bash. Shake Shack was competing, and when we. When I won the trophy, I sent him and Danny a picture of the trophy. And that was a lot of fun. You know, it's in jazz. I mean, look, those guys, look, I would take their life in a freaking heartbeat. Yeah, so not their life. I take their money, I'm happy with my life.

[A]

Their money.

[B]

But I'll take the money.

[A]

What a story, man.

[B]

So I'm sorry I sucked up. That was a long. That was a long time here. I apologize.

[A]

No, it's absolutely great. All right, guys, as I'm sure you just heard, this is a lot more than just burgers, this story. This is a guy who's an outsider and stepped into an industry and just refused and still refuses to back down. So thanks for checking out episode 68 of Interesting Humans. And as always, if you loved it, if you know somebody can help, I'd appreciate it. Hit like hit share comment and all the good stuff. We'll see you next episode.