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🎙️ Interesting Humans Podcast
Ep. 71: Space Shuttle Challenger Disaster - My Dad Was the Pilot [Alison Balch]
01:32:38
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- [00:01]
A
This is interesting. Humans podcast. My name is Jeff Hopeck, your host. Where we go past the highlight reel and into the moments that actually shape a life. The struggles, the mistakes, the pivots. Because the real lessons aren't found in success. They're found in everything it took to get there. On January 28th, 1986, the world stopped. Space shuttle Challenger exploded in midair just 73 seconds after liftoff. The Challenger exploded in front of literally millions of people tuned in that morning with very high hopes. And most of us remember exactly where we were and exactly what we were doing. But today you're going to hear from somebody who remembers it a little differently because her dad was on that shuttle. And this isn't just a story about tragedy. It's a story about what happens after the world moves on, but your own life never does. Allison Balch, thank you so much. And in the podcast world, one of the things that hosts talk about is never use these, never use the word and the phrase thank you because it's wasted time with your listeners. And I just don't buy it. And I don't believe it because I'm sitting here, I've got tremendous amount of gratitude. Okay.
- [01:36]
B
So you're very welcome.
- [01:38]
A
Thank you for taking the time to come and share this story. That's one of not many on the planet. So do appreciate that there was a moment that everything changed for you. I'd like to know where were you? Where were you standing at the exact moment?
- [01:58]
B
Sure. If a person has seen a picture of down at the Kennedy Space center, there's the vehicle assembly Building, which is a large building that houses the shuttle or something that's launching. There's an American flag on that. And next to that is an office building that at that time had mission control for the Kennedy Space Center. And we waited in that office until 10 minutes before launch and were taken to the rooftop. So we were on the rooftop of the building maybe a mile and a half just under from the launch pad, had a clear view.
- [02:35]
A
Clear view. I mean, so you come out, do you feel excitement?
- [02:44]
B
Yes. That's a multi layered question. Because this was my dad's job. But the excitement I remember feeling was a build up to, okay, we move here in 1980, dad's an astronaut, and then here, six years later, five and a half years later is his time. And it's, he's about to be launched into space. Something he had talked with me about. And I remember my heart beating because of the way my father raised me. It wasn't necessarily out Of a fear for what I was about to watch, but a nervous anticipation of this huge event that was about to happen. I mean, the space shuttle, huge. How many people watch their dad on a rocket go into space? So it was a. It was a normal nervousness, but excitement, right? It was.
- [03:47]
A
They walk out of the building, they walk on. You're still. Let's go. We're fired up. It goes on time. Everything. Did anything feel different or weird? Did anything stand out at all?
- [03:59]
B
No, it was more. Did anything stand out? No. That's a great question, because this was my dad's job. So this was. We went to Florida to see dad do what he had been selected to do. It was his job. It seemed very normal in my world because this was the 25th mission, the 25th space shuttle to launch. My friends who sat next to me in class, their dads had gone up on shuttles. So it was very much just a part of my world. And this was our chance to be in Florida to watch. I had never seen the space shuttle in person. Launch. So that as it took off, like, you can hear it, you can feel it, you see is. It's just powerful. It's a really special moment. There was. For me, there was zero worry or fear that something would go wrong. And I think I had mentioned to you, my dad raised us to do our best at whatever we did. Sometimes our best resulted in not the grade we wanted or not, but do the best. And so my mental framework had been shaped that that's how the whole world lived. And after we saw what we saw and learned what we learned, I realized that was not how the rest of the world, you know, acted. You know, some people sometimes don't do their best, and disasters sure happen.
- [05:38]
A
And we're gonna. We're gonna get into that. So it rumbles, it shakes. All this stuff happens. It goes. It's a show when it takes off. So when it. I'm gonna use the word disconnect. So when it. Right, there's now no turning back? No, like, at least when it's going and firing up, if something happens that goes wrong, they can stop it. And I believe they have, but it disconnects. Did the feeling change once it, like, physically got up in the air for you?
- [06:10]
B
Not necessarily. I mean, no. It was more just watching. Like, we're just watching and I don't even know if I had processed. We're going to watch until it goes away, and then Dad's going to be in space. Does that now. I mean, I don't Know if I could share my brother on this side of all of it. I know that one of the things my father knew, so he was a test pilot, had been a pilot since he was 15, started taking flying. He knew that those first two to three minutes, anything was out of his control. So for a pilot who had gone through all the training he had, was a test pilot. He knew he was going to be flying the shuttle when they were up there. Those couple minutes not being in control was. I don't know if he would say it was difficult, but it was what it was. So now I know that was part of what he was probably thinking also.
- [07:13]
A
Yeah, makes perfect sense. So it's going, it's going. I mean the famous. We've seen it now thousands of times or 10 seconds might feel like sometimes maybe minutes, just for 10 seconds, like it's going, it's going. 60 seconds. I mean, was anybody signaled of anything on the ground?
- [07:37]
B
No, no, none of us.
- [07:39]
A
You saw what we saw?
- [07:40]
B
Yes, it was. If you were watching on television, you saw a closer up version. It seemed, you know, it was far away, but close enough. I don't know if you've seen anything launch. The TV was seeing it much closer. So when the explosion happened, my brain did not process what I was seeing.
- [08:04]
A
Right.
- [08:04]
B
Because I had never seen it. I had never seen it in person.
- [08:09]
A
You didn't know what to compare it to.
- [08:10]
B
Yes.
- [08:11]
A
So at what point then it's 73 seconds after liftoff is the technical. But at what point did you come to terms with, okay, regardless what people are saying or what, like something has happened.
- [08:28]
B
So at the moment of the explosion, at the moment like the explosion, everything happened within, I don't know, one or two seconds. The worst happened. And at that exact moment I took a picture with my little Kodak camera. I had taken a series of about five pictures and I took a picture of when the external tank exploded and the solid rocket boosters maybe had just barely come off. And I turned to my brother and again, I mean again, one second. And I turned to Scott and I said, isn't it beautiful? And I don't know how much I'd be curious how much time elapsed. It was not less than or not more than a couple minutes that as I was talking to Scott and he has told me he knew that something had happened. I saw people coming up the stairs to the rooftop and I remember thinking, this doesn't feel right, something has happened. So I don't necessarily. I remember seeing them because they quite quickly came and Got us. I don't remember turning my head back to watch. And they took us down the stairs. I know that George Abbey, who was. He loved my dad. He was the person at NASA. There's a book. I don't know if he wrote it. It's called Astronaut Maker. But he was in charge of selecting the astronauts. And he has told my mom that his first thought was, we need to get to the families. I mean, this will make me cry, but we need to. We need to get them off the roof. We need to take care of them. This was. There was no. There was no manual for what to do when something like this happened. So they did the best they could. They took us down. And it was when we went into the office that we had been waiting in to collect our belongings that I remember looking out. The windows were a little slanted, all glass, because, you know, you're at the. Kate. This is a place you can watch rockets launch into space. So it's designed to look out. And I remember looking out and seeing what by then was maybe four or five minutes past the explosion and just seeing the clouds in the air. And, you know, you put together what I saw, what people, how people were acting clearly. We did not stay on the rooftop to continue watching something. I was 14. Something bad had happened. And so they quickly. We got our things, put us on the elevator and to take us down. And when I say us, it's, you know, the family, the other people who work for NASA, the flight surgeon, the people who are there to be supportive to. The families would. Were gathered, and by this time, I was just bawling. Someone told me I need to stop crying because I was upsetting the others. And I remember thinking, that's a, you know, interesting thing to say when. When what was supposed to be a joyful, exciting thing has turned into, you know, I'm putting words to it now at the moment, you're just responding like a tragedy. You know, what was supposed to be a great thing has turned into a tragedy. And they put us on the bus. My sister was extremely upset. She was 8. And we drove to the crew quarters. I don't know how far that was away. And by the time we got to the crew quarters, television was the only thing that would have told us what was happening since there weren't iPhones and whatnot and they had turned those off. So that day, I bet we got there at 11:30. I bet we were there by 12:15 at the latest. And they had turned off the TVs and the kids I remember 11 of us kids, well, two were babies. So the older kids sat in the living room area of the crew quarters, which was where the astronauts had quarantined before the launch. And they took the adults. Our parents or like Judy Resnick wasn't married, so her siblings or parents probably went in and they told them, you know, definitively like, it is not. It's not good, it's. This has happened. So. But I didn't learn for sure until later that afternoon when I talked to my mom.
- [12:52]
A
So was there still a little bit of hope?
- [12:54]
B
You just need to know I always had hope. The Lord created me to be an optimist. My dad had taught me people do their best. I could not in any. It's weird because I knew I lost my dad, but I didn't know I lost my dad. I was like, surely, surely there was some way they could have gotten out. Like, does that make any. You know, I'm 14 and I remember thinking, maybe they're just floating somewhere. Maybe they're like, this can't be real. It can't be real. So I knew they were. I mean when, you know, there's more to the story of us being at the crew quarters. But by the time we made it around back home to Houston, I knew they were gone. I mean I knew that what my mom had shared with me. But until I saw it on television later that night. And again, there are things that fill in that. Until I saw it on TV at my best friend's house, what the world was watching. I was like, wow, okay, this. They really, you know, the close up explosion break apart of the orbiter.
- [14:04]
A
The why?
- [14:05]
B
The why. That kind of. It's a blurry picture of the orbiter where the crew is just because the. I don't know if you know this, but the external tank exploded. The orbiter where the crew was did not explode. An astronaut explained this to me once, which I would not do a great job explaining. But the orbiter was aerodynamically unable to sustain its trajectory and simply started shaking. And that's what caused it to break apart. So it did not explode. And the solid rocket boosters went off. They did not explode. So it really was the external tank that exploded and the orbiter broke apart and then the crew cabin was catapulted into the air. My mom says that would have felt to my father, it would have felt like flying off of an aircraft carrier. So it would not have felt. I'm sure he knew something was wrong, but it would not have been an unfamiliar feeling. To go into the air and then. Well, then that would have been unfamiliar. The fall to the ocean, which is where they. Which is what caused their death. And I mean, do you want me to. I can. Like the. My dad was alive that whole way down. The crew cabin is. It's set up where there. It's called personal egress air packs. And so each astronaut has one of those. If there's a loss of cabin pressure, they can turn that on, put their visor down, and it will feed oxygen into their visor. So my dad was in the right front seat. Dick Scobia was in the left. And then behind them were Judy Resnick and Ellen Azuka. My father and Dix were. The personal egress air packs were behind their seats. So the two back passengers had to reach forward and turn them on. My dad's was turned on. Dick Scobie's was not. My mom sat in the actual crew cabin after they pulled it from the ocean. And because she wanted to see who was able to reach my dad's to turn it on. And I think she's about Judy Resnick's size. So El on Azuka probably was the one who turned my dad's on. And when they found the crew cabin and measured how much oxygen had been used, my dad had been breathing the whole way down. And some of the pilot. Some of the astronauts who are also pilots sat in my dad's seat, looked at the switches that were flipped and said, this is what I would have done if I had been in Mike's seat. I would have flipped those. Because as a test pilot, you are trained. I wonder if there was a moment he thought about us as a family. I wouldn't be surprised if he was just on, no pun intended, autopilot. You know, he was just doing the job. He had been trained because he was such a good pilot and so well trained. But they said those. That was the sequence and the switches, they would have flipped. So that means there was, you know, for the two and a half minutes at least for most of it, I think he was. That he was alive.
- [17:29]
A
I never knew any of that. That's incredible. What was the last thing he said to you?
- [17:39]
B
I don't know the answer to that question. Yes. I'm not sure the answer to that question. I bet I don't know the exact date. But they had to go into quarantine at the Johnson Space center for maybe a week before they flew. They. The crew, before they flew to Florida for the launch, which ended up. It originally was Gonna be on the 22nd. It was delayed, you know, a couple reasons. And the night before he went in. No, I'm sorry. The night before, my mom, which, that's a whole interesting story. The night before my mom and my brother Scott and my sister Aaron and I flew to Florida. He snuck home from quarantine. Snuck home, came home from quarantine and he hugged us. So that's the last time I saw him. I remember kind of crawling to the end of my bed and give him a big hug, you know, I love you and that I never would have thought that would be the last time I would see him. I know I talked to him a couple times during the week while we were in Florida. I cannot recall what we said. It was probably just normal, you know, chit chat. And then my. He called the morning of the launch and talked to my mom. I remember I was sleeping on the floor of the condo we were in. And I just, you know, I was a kid, I was tired. I just pretended I was still asleep and didn't talk to dad. I mean, it was, you know he was coming back, right? He was coming back. This was.
- [19:05]
A
He's just going to work.
- [19:06]
B
Yeah, he's just. Exactly. He's just going to work. So I'm not sure what, I'm not sure what I said. And that's okay. I knew he loved him. My brother and sister and I talk all the time. We know our dad loved us. No doubt.
- [19:22]
A
That's awesome. What was he like when he wasn't an astronaut?
- [19:27]
B
Oh, I love that question. Let's talk about that. He was, as a person, he was humble. Some people who my mom and dad were not their close friends, of course, but acquainted with, did not know he was an astronaut. It wasn't something he didn't know. Didn't know. He just, you know, he was. I was able to speak at the Day of Remembrance at the Kennedy Space center this last January because it was. Well, anyway, I won't go into all that, but one of the things I love about my dad, stories that my mom shared and then I passed this on is, you know, after work, people knew where my dad was going, like a lot of astronauts. And it is fine that other astronauts did this. They would go to some of the gathering places. The astronauts would go. Great. People knew Mike Smith would go home. He just wanted to be with his family. So he. I love that. I remember we lived, he. We lived in Virginia Beach. He was in the Sunday punchers. He was, you know, a pilot for the Navy out of Oceana. And he wanted to spend more time with family. So I remember him pulling my brother and I into the master bedroom and saying, okay. And my sister was little. She was about two. So he didn't. He said, okay, kids. You know, I'm thinking of doing something different. I either want to. We would move to Memphis, and he'd be a FedEx pilot, or I might apply to be an astronaut. He probably didn't go into. You know, they're starting the space shuttle and all that. And, yeah, I remember my. This is probably the only. My first thought was, I don't want you to be an astronaut because you might die. And I said that out loud. That's the only time. And then it just. I went on. I mean, that was it. That was it. But I remember thinking that. But I'd never, ever dwelled on that. So he applied with over 3,000 other people for the 1980. If you ever read. If you ever read that. He applied in 1978 and did not get chosen. That is not true. He applied one time. Yeah, it's written in some places. He applied one time for the 1980 group. He was selected, and there were 19 of them selected out of over 3,000. And when dad received the call from George Abbey, he was the one who met us or gathered us from the rooftop. He, in a nutshell, said to George, can I call you back? I need to talk to my wife and kids first. But he just wanted to make sure we were on board with this incredible. Being an astronaut was his path to then what he wanted to do next. So it'd be a great adventure. He wanted to fly the shuttle. You know, get that in his. His flying resume.
- [22:27]
A
What did he want to do next?
- [22:28]
B
Oh, he. That's a good question. I wish my mom was here. She could answer it better. He. I don't know. He wanted. He knew this would create opportunities for him.
- [22:37]
A
What a resume.
- [22:39]
B
But, like, I mean, so he was humble. He knew what I mean. My mom has always said when he asked her to marry him, he said, here's what I want to do. Are you okay with that? You know, are you okay with the adventure? He's like, yeah, let's go.
- [22:54]
A
Wow.
- [22:55]
B
He loved spending time with us. He loved doing woodworking out in the garage and remodeled different spaces in our home. Built a boathouse on the lake we lived on in Houston. He just wanted to hang out. He. He wasn't super warm and fuzzy. I mean, but we knew he loved him. I mean, we knew he loved us. He helped my Brother create a lawn mowing business that then I joined. I mean, he was always creating opportunities for us to learn and grow. I would not use the word that. He was strict, but he was disciplined. And we knew what he expected of us. And so, you know, we tried to stay in those.
- [23:46]
A
Fair.
- [23:47]
B
He was fair. Yes.
- [23:48]
A
With boundaries.
- [23:49]
B
He explained things where we're like, okay, this makes sense. Yes. We'll get out and mow eight lawns today, even though we'd love to watch cartoons, you know, so he was very driven. He was. Yeah. I could go on and on with stories.
- [24:09]
A
Pick one of your favorites.
- [24:11]
B
Oh, okay. One favorite is. So there's six years difference between my sister and I. So my brother's the oldest, and then I'm two and a half years younger. And then Aaron came six years later. And so I was six, and dad said, hey, let's make a bet. You tell me what you think mom is gonna have. So I picked a girl. And so he, by default, had to pick a boy. And the prize was the winner would get. Well, I mean, I don't know if he would have six scoops of ice cream from Baskin Robbins. So he called from the hospital to tell us we were our friends, the Van Sickles. You know, mom had the baby, you know, whatever, and what'd she have? And he said, and I'm six. He says, it's a boy. I'm like, you're joking.
- [24:55]
A
No.
- [24:55]
B
And he's like, no, no, no, it's a girl. And he told us her name. And so we went. And I got all six scoops on one ice cream cone.
- [25:03]
A
What flavor do you remember?
- [25:05]
B
I don't remember. Probably. Charlie Brown was chocolate and peanut butter, I'm sure, was one of the ones in there.
- [25:11]
A
Yeah.
- [25:12]
B
So he was always, you know, like, hey, kids, can you ride? We'd go on bike rides. Hey, can you ride your bike? And from here with no hands and turn into the driveway, if you could do it. It was always ice cream, wasn't it?
- [25:23]
A
Always ice cream. That's great. The great motivator. Ice cream. What does it look like for an astronaut day to day?
- [25:31]
B
Oh, what did they even do?
- [25:35]
A
Did you move from Virginia to.
- [25:36]
B
We moved. Yes, we moved from Virginia. No, no, no. They train in Houston, so. At the Johnson Space Center. Okay, so we lived in Clear Lake. Well, we lived in Seabrook. We lived in Timber Cove. Look it up. Awesome neighborhood. It was created right during the first astronaut. Right after the Mercury astronauts were selected. John Glenn lived there. Jim Lovell, you know, Apollo 13, he lived. Not when we lived there. One of the astronauts selected with my dad moved into his house. I mean, it was very natural and normal that. Down the street were the Kinslers. They created the flag that Neil Armstrong left on the moon that looks like it's waving, but it's not really. It's a stationary flag because there's no wind on the moon. Mr. Schauss, whose lawn we mowed, he would. We'd stand talking to him and he's like, oh, yeah. You know, this is in the kitchen of his house. He's like, oh, yeah. You know, Mrs. Schaus and I, we would play around and come up with space food here. Yeah. Like, this was just.
- [26:34]
A
That's just it.
- [26:35]
B
This was just our. But your question, what was your question? I got sidetracked.
- [26:39]
A
That is so cool.
- [26:40]
B
Like, no, just the day to day.
- [26:42]
A
That is part of it.
- [26:43]
B
So sure. Yeah. Some of them I know my dad did because there was what, maybe five and a half years between his selection and his actual mission. So backing up, you know, maybe a year of that was training for the mission he was going to go on. And so that leaves about four years the first year you're an astronaut candidate. So it's a lot of just like being a first year resident for surgery, like you're just. It's very basic.
- [27:17]
A
Yeah.
- [27:17]
B
After that they do things like sometimes they're assigned to be with a family whose astronaut parent or family member is launching down at the Cape. So they'll go there and you know, be like a, you know, a go between taking them where they need to be. We had one of those. My dad designed the night landing system for the space shuttle. So for any of the night landing to light the Runway, he had a team of. I think there were seven of them. I love. He got a cash prize and he knew that, you know, it was the team and so he divided it seven ways, you know, so he did that. He was.
- [28:00]
A
What is that thing? What? Night landings.
- [28:02]
B
It would light up the Runway so the shuttle could see as it was,
- [28:07]
A
you know, he created it.
- [28:08]
B
He created it, he and his team.
- [28:10]
A
Gosh, that's so cool.
- [28:12]
B
He sometimes was on the checkout crew for a launch where, you know, you're the ones buckling in that like. Sonny Carter was an astronaut who buckled in my dad and the crew and, you know, just all kinds of things are needed. He was George Abbey's right hand man in the astronaut office for. For a while. And there was a name for that.
- [28:33]
A
Yeah.
- [28:34]
B
So, yeah, they're busy.
- [28:35]
A
I mean, they have like simulators and stuff.
- [28:37]
B
Oh, absolutely.
- [28:38]
A
What kind of flying training did they do?
- [28:40]
B
I guess. Well, the pilots, astronaut pilots can use the T38s. So that's the, that's NASA's jet T38. So. But then training, you're in a. You're in the flight simulator. It's a mock up of the crew cabin of the shuttle.
- [28:58]
A
Yeah. Did, did it ever fully come out as far as, like, what actually happened?
- [29:04]
B
Oh, absolutely.
- [29:05]
A
They know for certain?
- [29:06]
B
For certain? Yes, 100%. 100%.
- [29:08]
A
And what is it?
- [29:09]
B
Yes, that's a, That's a long story. Can I do a plug for a book, please? I'm here.
- [29:15]
A
Read whatever answers.
- [29:16]
B
The Challenger by Adam Higginbotham is just excellent. Challenger, Challenger, it's heroism and disaster on the edge of space. I believe that's the full. And Adam wrote is just excellent and he does a very good detailed explanation that anyone can understand. But, but I'll tell you that the Challenger, my dad's flight of Challenger, it was the coldest measurable temperatures of any shuttle flight up to that point. And I don't think I can. I don't think I'm capable of explaining all. But there had been. So the solid rocket boosters are put together in segments, and in between each of those segments are O rings and which are like large rubber rings. That's much more detailed than that. And the O rings, it came out afterward that there were shuttle flights where there were incidents called blow bys where the O rings have different layers that are for protection so that the solid rocket fuel inside does not escape. Somebody else can explain it better than I can, but there were some blow bys where there were almost accidents, but it didn't happen. And the cold temperatures before my father's flight caused damage to the O ring that did not. Okay, so caused damage to the O ring and when it launched. There's a picture that I have that I have found somewhere where you could see before it leaves the launch pad. Like a poof, like a cloud of black smoke has come out from the damaged O ring. And I learned within the last, like 15 years, somebody's telling me that as the shuttle continued into the air and none of this we could see and nobody was watching this. You see it in hindsight, but that opening plugged back up because of the heat and pressure. And so ironically, one minute into the flight was a gust of wind that was the highest measured wind to hit a shuttle during launch. And it caused that plug to dislodge. And so that opening became a flame that was pointed toward the external tank. And. And the solid rocket boosters are connected to the external tank by metal struts. So that flame burned through the struts, hit the external tank, it exploded, and then the solid rocket boosters fell off and what you saw happen, happened. So, yeah, I don't know how soon after, I think within the first couple months, that started to unfold and the Rogers Commission, President Reagan set that up to find out exactly what happened. And there's so much more detail to it, but you did a great job
- [32:34]
A
with it for not being an engineer. You made it make sense.
- [32:38]
B
A beautiful thing that has come out of that, if I can, is. I mean, I say that. A beautiful thing. So the night before any launch, there's a, a decision making discussion that happens between Johnson Space Center, Kennedy Space Center, Huntsville, Marshall, whoever's in Huntsville, and they look at Morton Thiokol, which is the company that makes the solid rocket boosters. And so they look at, you know, hey, are we good to launch? There's, I don't know, checklist. And during that, like, there it is. Actually, my daughter studied that in college, and I won't get into that, but studied it has been used in classrooms as a decision making tool to teach kids how difficult decisions are in business or in companies. And then, you know, what the result can be. But in that. There were the engineers. There was a group of five engineers who were adamant not to launch and, and gave their reasons. And one of them, this is the point of my story, is one of them, Brian Russell, was in the room at Morton Thiokol and was part of those five. And as you know, the decision was made to launch. But full circle is that I did an interview for a Netflix documentary, Challenger. Oh, what's the tag? Anyway, you can find it. And at the end, after I did all that, I asked the director, you know, were there any of the engineers you interviewed who I could talk to? Because for years I had hoped that my path would cross with them. And my mom had. My mom knew some of them because she just was an adult and dealing with some things after launch. But I had never. And I just hoped that my path would cross so I could say, hey, I'm okay. And I don't. I mean, there's the element of forgiveness, but not even knowing what really their part was. But, like, I know, I've heard stories, just the anguish that they could not stop the launch. And so I was connected with Brian Russell, who was a, you know, Young in early 30s and was in that room. And since then, like, we've emailed a bunch, we've done zoom calls and shared our stories. And his story has been part of my healing. My story's been part of his healing. I mean, it has been, it's been wonderful. Like, it's really been wonderful. To have now a friend who has fleshed out even more what happened. But that we could be part of each other's story in this way, that's incredible because, yeah, forgiveness. I don't have any bitterness toward or anger toward anyone who made any decision. God has worked that out of me, smushed it out of me.
- [35:35]
A
I can't wait to get into that part. I do have another question on this though. So what does that decision making process look like? You said five said no to the wall.
- [35:46]
B
That's a compliment. I don't know if I can fully answer all of that. Even though Brian told me his story, so now I understand it more. It's because there's managers, there's engineers. There's so many elements that go into it. The time factor, the money factor. It hasn't been a problem before. So do we risk it? And it is extremely complicated, actually. My daughter, who studied it at school, that's a funny story, but ended up. I was able to go have coffee with the professor who was doing it once he found out that the granddaughter of the Challenger, you know, was in his class. And this is a lesson he's. Because he, it's. It's directly related to Challenger what he is teaching as far as decision making. And so I was able to sit across the table from him and listening to him talk to me while we were having coffee. And he just. The complicated process of making any decision that's not straightforward. And then he was able, I was able to hear that part from him. So I don't know if I could explain it all. And then he was able to hear the human side from me, which I think was mutually, again, mutually beneficial because I had not really thought through everything that he shared. But it's not any. It wasn't just. Nobody wanted it to happen. Sure. No one. Of course, nobody wanted to make the wrong decision. Yeah, yeah. You know, I. And I was, I've been able to talk to Brian about that. You know, you can't change what happened. But. And he did not make my friend Brian Russell, he was. We should not launch.
- [37:33]
A
So what happened then? It was supposed to go January 20th.
- [37:36]
B
It was supposed to launch January 22nd. I can't remember why? It was delayed a little bit. January 27th, we went to the Cape or to the, you know, we did the whole process of being in the office waiting. We did not make it to the rooftop that day because as they closed the hatch, there was a bolt that they couldn't get to work. They NASA, you know, whoever's closing the door to seal the astronauts in. There was a bolt that was faulty and they didn't have the right equipment. And so by the time they could get the equipment. I hope this is all. I'm pretty sure it is. By the time they could get the equipment to the launch pad, they would have missed the window. So it was a. It was a. Yeah, they canceled the launch that day. We went back and it was that afternoon and I remember it was that afternoon that the cold front came in. When we moved to Atlanta, people were all the people I talked to. Yeah, we were home from school that day. We were home from school. That was a snow day. And that makes sense weather wise, that just south of Atlanta is where the shuttle's launching and the wind, I mean, I'm sorry, the weather pattern had gone, you know, had covered that part of Florida. Also. I remember we had to switch condos because we were thought. We thought we were going to go home on the 27th. We had to stay another day. Somebody needed our condo. We. So we had. And I remember walking up the stairs to wherever the new place we were staying and it was incredibly windy and so cold. So. Yeah. And then for whatever reason, they decided to go ahead and launch that next day. My dad thought that they would have launched on. That was a Tuesday. My dad really thought they were going to launch on Sunday the 26th, because it was pristine blue sky. I mean, the weather. He was a pilot and he was fascinated with the weather. We have weather maps at my mom's house that he ordered before, like within the year before he launched because he was. Wanted to understand the weather patterns. He was a pilot.
- [39:46]
A
This what, that's what they do, right?
- [39:47]
B
He's dotting the I's and crossing the T. And, you know, he even asked a friend of ours had to fly back to North Carolina from Florida when the launch was scrubbed, he had to get back to work. And my dad called him and the guy had his own plane and he said, you know, how was the flight back? And that friend was able to tell him how cold it was, this and that. And so my dad was like, we're not going to fly.
- [40:13]
A
Right.
- [40:14]
B
He called my mom that morning, the morning of the actual launch and said, get the kids ready to go back to Houston. They need to get back to school. We're not going to launch today. But at that time, also, astronauts did not have any say in the launch decision. Now they do. Now they are very involved
- [40:35]
A
as a result of.
- [40:36]
B
Yes, yes, obviously. Right. Which is as it should be, right?
- [40:42]
A
I would think so. What did your dad fly before?
- [40:44]
B
Oh, I should know all that too. He flew A6s in Vietnam. He flew F4s. He flew. I think I just had looked at. I should know these answers. Like, that's okay. Like there's a certain number of different type of aircraft.
- [41:01]
A
So many letters and numbers.
- [41:03]
B
I should know. My favorite is that he has. He has eight minutes of blimp time. When we lived in Houston, we were able to go from our family the Goodyear blimp and he got to be at the controls.
- [41:15]
A
You were in it?
- [41:16]
B
Oh, yes, yes. I have a great picture of my sister and my dad.
- [41:21]
A
So here's that. We talked about it right before is like everybody has this story. So you're. We're here talking for the story, Right, Obviously. But now you have a story within it. You were on a blimp. I want to have you on another episode to talk about the blimp.
- [41:36]
B
I can't remember too much about, like, oh, that's cool. We're moving really slowly.
- [41:40]
A
Yeah. Was he. Was he in the five year period of being hired as an astronaut?
- [41:46]
B
It was when we lived in Houston. No, it was when we lived in Houston. So he. So we were. He was an astronaut then.
- [41:53]
A
Were you six, seven?
- [41:54]
B
Oh, how old are you? No, no, no, I was probably because we moved to Houston when I was 10. Turned 10, and then my dad died when I was 14.
- [42:01]
A
14.
- [42:02]
B
So it was within that time. Yeah.
- [42:03]
A
That's so cool. In the blimp.
- [42:07]
B
In the blimy.
- [42:08]
A
So let's move into. So many questions around, like the grief and how that shaped you. And I think a good starting point would be let's. Let's go to the day. Right? So you're. There's national platform. It's on the news. I would imagine there's like a whole adrenaline piece. I don't know. Different than somebody's dad who just passes away that's not on national news. Like, how did it all play together? Start with the day.
- [42:41]
B
Okay, so the day.
- [42:43]
A
Were you just numb all day? Like, did you accept it or.
- [42:48]
B
So sad. Yeah, Just so sad.
- [42:51]
A
Yeah. Yeah, probably. Yeah.
- [42:55]
B
Yeah. So sad. Just sad all around. So sad that, I mean, My cheeks burned from all the crying. Couldn't believe it went. You know, they flew us home to Houston that night. And I remember just putting my head on my brother's lap and crying because we were leaving my dad, you know, I didn't know where he was. I didn't know that they were. I just didn't. I had no context for what I was experiencing. My brother did a little bit because Scott had always heard from it. It wasn't ever the, you're going to be the man of the house, but it was. Here's what's. Here's the reality of having a dad who's a test pilot, who's a pilot, who goes away as a Navy pilot on the. You know, things can happen. So Scott knew that and I didn't. So my mom knew that and I didn't, you know, and Erin didn't. My sister didn't. But it's really sad. And landed at Ellington Air Force Base from, you know, back in Houston. And just. I remember getting off the NASA jet and just like a sea of people. And it was all people we knew who were there to. Because. Because this was the community. The. We. We were their family, if that makes, you know, these were the people I talked about in our neighborhood. These were the other astronaut families.
- [44:18]
A
These.
- [44:19]
B
They were there because they lost their friends. They lost their friends, you know, on. So went back home. I stayed home from school the next day. And, you know, of course, it is just on repeat on the tv. Repeat, repeat, repeat. The house is filled. You know, I have to say, and anybody. You know, my story was extremely public out there. That's an element of grieving. That's different than someone who loses their family member in a car wreck or cancer. But the sadness is the same. You know, I recognize that. Like, does that make sense? Like, loss is loss. I mean, we live in a broken world. Everyone is going to suffer. Which is part of why I like to tell my story, because what are we going to do with that suffering? You know, God does not waste our suffering if we let him work through. But I know we'll get to that. But I stayed home that day. Oh, that's what I was going to say is that it wasn't. It was incredibly sad. But there's a part of it, like, these people who love us are around, and that's fun. Not fun, that's not the right word, but comforting. I mean, there's a. You know, we lost my dad, but I remember it was nice to have family members there. It was nice to have our neighbors there. It was, you know, that. Yeah.
- [45:46]
A
Did it matter that you really had, like, the whole country?
- [45:49]
B
Well, so, okay, so that day I watched on TV that hadn't hit me yet. Well, I mean, backing up the night before we got on the plane to fly back to Houston, I called my best friend. I can't remember. I didn't share this yet today. And Jill. And I wanted to tell her what happened because. And she was crying, but I thought she was laughing. And I'm like, I thought she was happy to hear from me because I had missed a week and a half of school, which was a long time, you know, and she was crying and I'm like. But I thought she was laughing. And so I said, no, no, no, Jill. Like, the worst thing has happened. She said, allison, it's all over the news. They let school out, you know, because everybody's, you know, every other kid's parent worked in some way for NASA. They let school out. And I was like, really? Wow. So it was at that moment that my world started to shift from I've lost my father to what now I can say is I lost my dad. The rest of the world also has a story about the day I lost my dad. That's still. I'm 40 years older. It's still hard to process that the next day. This is a great example of how my world changed the next day. I stayed home, I watched tv. I realized, okay, that's fine, but I'm ready to go back to school on Thursday. So two days later. And the way our school was set up, the ninth grade was in its own separate building. And so I was in ninth grade. And before school started, we all just sat in the cafeteria. And I mean, I had friends, but I wasn't, you know, I wasn't popular or any. You know, I just had. I just had friends. Sure. And I walked into the cafeteria and, you know, I mean, it's loud because a lot, and it wins silent because I. I walked it. Like, that's how my world changed. Everybody knew who I was because, I mean, because this, you know, this was the 9 11, the Kennedy shot moment of that generation. And yeah, like, for lack of a better word, instant popularity is a weird thing.
- [47:52]
A
For better or for worse, or you didn't even know at that time.
- [47:55]
B
No, both, both, both. I mean, it's wonderful to have my dad and the crew remembered. Like, that's a gift. The words people have shared, you know, how they. It just. That's a gift. What does a 14 year old do with everybody knowing who you are, you know, it can it. And I wasn't a Christian then either. So. Yeah, more for the good. More for the good.
- [48:26]
A
More for the good.
- [48:27]
B
And then the next day, Friday, you know, I'm on world TV with President Reagan and our family at the memorial service at the Johnson Space Center. And that's a whole story in itself too, you know, suppressing sadness. Just cried the whole time. Amazing to meet the Reagan's. Like President Reagan was like that. He just was a gentle grandfather.
- [48:54]
A
Yeah. You know what you see what you get totally with him.
- [48:57]
B
Yeah. I mean for the, you know, the minutes we spent with him. But he was, you know, he. Even years later we were going through some things at my mom's and he. I don't know why this isn't framed. We should really get it framed. He had written a hand note to my sister, he knew she liked horses and sent, you know, here, I wanted to send you a picture of myself on my horse, my ranch in California, you know, and there's.
- [49:19]
A
Wow.
- [49:19]
B
So. But yeah, that the Friday memorial service was so difficult with them. It was just listening to everybody talk about my day. I just, I just cried the whole time. But within the story that I'm able to share with, with groups that I talk to, I show that picture and I. The Lord was right there. He like looking back, he was right there. He was right there comforting me, all of us. He was right there pursuing me. He would rescue me years later. Like the story didn't end with what people see of the 14 year old. You know, sad to.
- [50:01]
A
There's much more. There's much more to it. So in, so in the grieving timeline, which never. Which never ends for you, was it. Were there different pockets where things hit differently? Such as I know songs came out about it. Mark Wills has a famous song. It was 1970 something. And then the 80s that I grew up in and talks about the Challenger and there's mentions of it. But when you would hear it, whether it was months later or even years later, is there different pockets of grieving?
- [50:38]
B
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [50:39]
A
How did it all work for you?
- [50:40]
B
Just yourself. Yeah. That's a. Wow. Do we have like five hours to talk? You know, I think there's that. I mean I was 14, so my dad was gone and we just missed him. You know, we just missed him. And you're. You know, we are a very close family, the four of us. Very, very close. But we each have our different stories of how we grieved. I mean my mom lost her Husband. We lost our dad. My sister was only eight. You know, different stories. So like, just sadness. I mean, four years later, I started dating my now husband. And, you know, he learned. Like, I remember for years and years it would just, like the anniversary would come around and, you know, at first everybody remembered. And then it got to a point where it was like, huh. Like, I am incredibly sad today. And I'm looking around going, people don't. Okay, I'm not the poor me.
- [51:35]
A
Right?
- [51:37]
B
But they're not, you know, do they not know what today is? Not again, not that I needed any. I'm not answering your question. Well, I mean, God has really just been. Okay, so here's a great way to explain. So I lost my dad in a public, very, very public setting. So again, I can even today, travel places, meet people. And one of the first things people say is if they were of age, you know, if they remember. I remember exactly where I was the day your father died. They don't say it like that, but that's how I hear it. Like, this is just my dad, but they have a story that's part of my story. So that really became my identity. Okay. Like, by default, you know, I'm connected with other people because of my dad. And fast forward, I'd have to think it's at least 20 years. We lived in Chicago. We were part of a Sunday school. And I always knew there was always a tension in my heart. And I haven't even shared with you that in 1989, my husband shared the gospel with me. And I was like, in a nutshell, wow. I knew Christ died for sin. I didn't realize he died for my sin. And that I need a savior that he can be my. Like that Jesus died the death I deserve so that I could have eternal life. And I gave my life to Christ. Best decision I've ever made. So that changed slowly, was changing how I grieved because. But my identity was still very much in. I had never heard the phrase, our identity should be in Christ. It still wasn't who my dad was. And so fast forward to we lived in Chicago. We were in a Sunday school class, and we did this series of Sundays about your identity being in Christ. And I remember thinking, okay, there is a prayer that I should be praying here. I don't know how to word it, you know. And thinking of the Bible says that the Holy Spirit brings our prayers even if we don't have words. And so I remember thinking, I really want my identity to be in Christ, but because of how My story is. It just feels it so much more in my dad. So then jump to. We moved to Dallas, and my youngest daughter was in second grade. And, you know, I never, like, wore a name tag. My dad died on the Challenger. But when you get to know people, it comes up. And part of the gift that I also had, I don't know, however God created me, was that from the day my dad died or, you know, soon after, like, I was willing to just talk about that day and tell people the story of that day, which is an interesting, you know, which you've heard a lot of, and there's so much more, but that. That can be telling your story is healing. So anyway, so my daughter's in second grade. The school we were at in Dallas, parents drove field trips, and we drove. I was driving. The teacher was in my car for one field trip trip. And she was an outside the box thinker. And she says, so Lauren has told me that her grandfather died on the Challenger. Not in a. Skeptical Lauren was lying, but, like, tell me more about that. And so I did. And she. She says, you need to come talk to the class. And nobody had ever asked me to speak to any group of people about my dad. And so I remember that morning I woke up and I thought, okay, I should look at, you know, things I have and pull some pictures to show them. And I didn't plan anything. And I stood there and I kind of talked. I didn't know what. Can you tell a second, like, what's appropriate? This is a scary story. You know, what can you tell right about that? But I talked about, you know, the space shuttle and what it was like to be an astronaut's daughter and just kind of skimmed over. I didn't go into any detail about, you know, well, my dad died in an accident. And then I kind of told a few things about what God had done in my life because of dad's death. And then Ms. Spencer, she's like, you need to talk in chapel. So I'm like, okay, you know, I was invited to talk to the chapel. And I thought, well, I'll just stand up there, you know, same thing, kind of five or 10 minutes, and talk to them. And my husband said, allison, you have pictures. You need to do a PowerPoint. And so I had never done a PowerPoint. So I looked through my pictures and I got this PowerPoint. I mean, the story has like, okay, I've talked to lots and lots of groups, but what people don't see. But now I do share as part of the Story is that. Is that I don't want to cry, but the one on one I've had with the Lord, the way that he has been present and real hours and hours of praying. What do you want me to say? Listening to him just pull together the words that I share, when I share, it's him. Like, he has. He has done it. Like, he's. He's been right there with me. And, like, it just makes my soul feel good. He met me there. And the reason I share is so I can share the gospel. It's like, okay, here's the hook, but here's what I really want you to hear. We live in a broken world. We're all going to suffer. My story is a public one, but people have just, on repeat, told me, you know, what they've. When I talked at Perimeter at Veterans Day, somebody came up afterwards, and she. I had talked about bitterness and how that's gone. And she had lost her father previously. And she said, two days ago, I prayed that the Lord would please take away the bitterness I have about losing my dad. She said, you are my answer to prayer. Like, it just. It just goes on and on. And so as far as, how does grieving work by me telling my story again and again, and the Lord being in that, he and I share this as part of my story. Now. He has healed me. Like, he's. He. Yes, I'm sad, but he has taken away the anger. He's taken away the bitterness. He's healed me the story. I mean, I say the story used to be huge, you know, visually huge, and now it's in its right place. And God is big. God was small in my mind as part of my story. I couldn't figure out the words. I would just say, yeah, my dad died, and God is good. And I feel, you know, but he's given me the words to then tell, you know, five or six stories on the back end of here's what happened, here's the gospel, and here's the best part, is how he has not wasted my suffering. He has shown me himself on repeat. He's faithful. He is trustworthy. He rescues. We just need to go to him. I could go on and on and on. He's good.
- [58:58]
A
I wanted to come back to the goodness. I want you to unpack the goodness part of it. Tell me first the anger that you. If you've had, did you have an anger towards anybody?
- [59:09]
B
Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't think I had a. I mean, them. Yeah, you know, whoever. Absolutely. Anger. I didn't Know enough. No, like, not the next morning. Well, I don't know the next morning.
- [59:26]
A
Soon after.
- [59:27]
B
I don't know if I could probably. I mean, as things started coming out in the paper and, you know, it's weird to. Then I would never wish it. I don't even know if I should.
- [59:37]
A
I don't know.
- [59:38]
B
I want to say that it's hard to, you know, like, it happened to my dad. Why was it my dad? And then when it came out, the mistakes that were made in the decision, you know, absolutely angry that it could have been prevented today. This was the story. You know, nothing surprises the Lord. My dad was supposed to live 40 years and certain number of months. There's no guarantee he would be alive today. His birthday was five days ago and he would have been 81. You know, he might have been 81. You know, like, I trust the Lord more now that this was the story that was supposed to unfold. How does that make any sense or when people make mistakes? I don't know. But. Oh, yeah, definitely. You can't not have anger. I don't think when you watch your dad die the way he did.
- [60:38]
A
Yeah,
- [60:41]
B
but the Lord, I mean, he's just. He's amazing. I mean, he's just taking that away.
- [60:49]
A
So how do you. So how in all of this does somebody reconcile or even use the word goodness?
- [60:58]
B
Right.
- [61:01]
A
Well, so many people are sitting there.
- [61:03]
B
No, that you gotta be. Yeah, no, that's a great question. Nothing is gonna change the fact that my dad died the way he. I mean, I've been walking with the Lord for, I don't know, decades, you know, 35 years, something like that. And you know, there's a phrase having a long obedience in one direction. I was like, God created me. Like, just start there by. I mean, I'm created by him and so I can. Nothing is greater than Him. So if my eyes are on him, if I'm walking with him, if I'm asking him to help me understand the suffering, he's going to answer, I've had a great life. I've had a great life. God is not good because circumstances are good in my life. He's good because that's what the Bible says that he is good. Such a good question. I just don't know how there's just story after story of. I think any person listening if they have let God worked in their heart and mind through suffering. Can see. Might have to come back to this question because it's really hard. Can see that God, I mean, he says he brings Beauty out of the ashes. Okay. Even this morning I shared with the group I was with is that if you put anything up against, well, against the gospel, which is, you know, Christ dying on the cross to pay for our sins, if you put any, there's no worse suffering. I mean, there's no greater suffering than what Christ went through. And so if God can sacrifice his, allow his son to be sacrificed on the cross to pay for our sins and the resurrection happened and we have that hope that we will be like Christ and resurrected like you put anything up against that, and I'm going to be okay no matter what I go through.
- [63:23]
A
That is the answer.
- [63:24]
B
It is the answer.
- [63:25]
A
That is the answer. It's. This is no different than when we watch in the courtroom a parent forgiving somebody who murdered their child. There's not. I mean, the manner of death is different. Is different, but mistakes were happening that caused your father his life. That. I don't know. I would think most people would sit here angry at the government for a long, long, long, long, long time.
- [63:59]
B
That's a. Bitterness is a really heavy, heavy thing to carry. Anger is very heavy to carry. It goes nowhere. Resentment, it's not going to bring my dad back. That's a cliche. But it won't. And yeah, I mean,
- [64:20]
A
yeah, the answer's in you sitting. The answer to me now listening, is you sitting here with the posture that you have is the answer to it saying, I forgive them. That to me, words don't even need to be spoken. When I hear your posture towards I forgive them, I don't. Because I asked you if you struggle, your anger. Sure you did. Now that's been reconciled. There's been a line crossed. I'll call it an invisible line. You don't know the day that you crossed it, but somewhere, somewhere around a period of time, you went over it.
- [64:58]
B
And it's that staying close to scripture, to what God promises. There's a story I share when I share my story. And. We went to the. My family went to the last two space shuttle launches. There were 130, 35, I believe, or 37, 35. I should know that, too. And you know, Columbia and Challenger were the two that. So there was a lot of success. And we went to the last two. It's very bittersweet to be there because, like, wow, what a reunion with these people who know us. I mean, the community is really tight. The NASA community in Clear Lake is really tight. So it's so fun. But then it's also, you know, you're Reliving, you're stepping the same steps that you know. And that's. But I was kind of going through that, and somebody in my Bible study fellowship class had sent me a verse. We were studying Isaiah that year. It was Isaiah 60:1. And it's just like it's a. Christ says some of the words in the New Testament about himself, but it's the, you know, beauty to ashes came to free the captives. And it goes on and on. And I'm reading those words and this is what I share with people. I'm reading those words and I remember thinking, wow. And I had this image of a glass of clear water, which was my life before dad died. Just a normal kid, you know, nothing had not experienced loss. Da, da, da. And then dad died, and it was like black ink was put into that water. And that was that anger, bitterness and sadness. But then I realized that over the decades of walking close to the Lord, knowing his character, knowing he keeps his promises, didn't. It doesn't matter what I'm going. That the Holy Spirit has been pouring into that water. Goodness, kindness, joy, peace, patience. I mean, all of the experiences that you have as a. As a follower of Christ. And so the ink is still in there. You know, I still. But it's diluted. And so God has undergirded me and equipped me to be able to trust him and to know that there is nothing that will separate me from him. Nothing. And I get to spend eternity with. I mean, that's a. I can talk about that a lot.
- [67:15]
A
What's something else? It sounds so crazy to even ask it this way, but what's something else good that came out of it? That's the prize, right? What's a small thing that you.
- [67:28]
B
I mean, a neat thing that happened is immediately after that. Well, probably even before the Friday memorial service where Reagan came. But it took a while for the letters to get there. Like, every. All seven families received like bags and bags of letters from people all over the country. So we estimate about 10,000 letters students. I mean, all our. I said country. That's not right. World, world, world. I mean, within that, there was a letter to me from this man, Brian Williams, who was a retired dentist in Wales. His daughter's name was Alison. And so when, you know, I was on with Reagan, that whole service, he just connected. We became pen pals. He came to my wedding, you know, like. I mean, what are good stories like? People. When I go share my stories. One friend in Dallas. I still. I would like to someday go back and Hear her whole story. But she heard my story and she shared with me afterward. We had coffee and she, she said, you know, about two years ago I went with my husband to Auschwitz in Germany, like, you know, and saw it. And she said, I have been angry at God since going there. And she said something about you sharing your story. I'm not, I'm not angry anymore. Those little. That's probably God. Like, the best thing is that the Lord saved me. That's the best thing that's come out of it, you know. But these little slices of people's stories that I get to hear are so such evidence of God working in other people's lives. One time I go back to the same school. This year was 14 years in Dallas. They just keep inviting me back each year for their. It doesn't matter. They invite me back. And one year I like was talking to the kids about, well, because I always, you know, encourage them, like, listen to my words. You're not going to remember everything, but there might be a few that God wants you to remember. And at the end, one of the. She was actually a substitute teacher came up and she said, she said, you are so right. She said, when I was in college, I was not a Christian. Walking by somebody's room on my dorm and I heard the words quiet time. And that intrigued her. And she went in and she ended up like learning, you know, quiet time is when you spend time in the Lord. I mean, in the Word.
- [69:47]
A
In the Word, yeah.
- [69:47]
B
You know, reading your Bible. And she said, that's how I became a Christian, because. Cause then I heard, you know, like, what's good is. I mean, I've been able to share, I don't know, I mean, close to 100 times with whoever asked me. I mean, I don't. If it doesn't interfere with my family and I'm able to go, I'll say yes. But I mean, that's something good.
- [70:12]
A
Incredible. Wow. How do they reach out? Do they reach out to you usually
- [70:16]
B
just word of mouth through your website? No, I don't. No, I don't. I don't self promote or any. No, I just.
- [70:22]
A
So if somebody wants to contact, they'll leave comments here. But do you have like Instagram anything? No, nothing.
- [70:29]
B
Well, I mean, I have Instagram, but I mean, I think the last commercial use.
- [70:33]
A
No, no, but you'll speak if you'll speak if somebody asks you to speak, but you're not on a speaker circuit.
- [70:40]
B
No.
- [70:40]
A
Okay.
- [70:41]
B
No, great. I'm not.
- [70:42]
A
That's great to know.
- [70:42]
B
Yeah. I raised my girls and I mean, it's hard enough to be away from them just like overnight to do, you know, some of. But, but you know, I mean, I share the same. It's the same story, but God tweaks it and I'll change up the slides and depending on the audience and. But you know, I mean, it is, it's. I can't change my story.
- [71:00]
A
You can't change it, right. So your dad. How would I see your dad in you? Do I see him? Would I see him in you?
- [71:13]
B
Oh, yeah. You would? Yes. I think in each of us kids, my mom would say, I love reading. Love reading. He was a reader.
- [71:21]
A
What did he read?
- [71:22]
B
What do I read?
- [71:23]
A
Sorry, what did he read?
- [71:23]
B
What did he read? Oh, that's a good. He always had this book. Well, it's actually now down at the Kennedy Space center in a display that honors the Columbian Challenger crew. He had a book of run that was just called Running. That was always next to his bed,
- [71:40]
A
like Running for running.
- [71:42]
B
Yeah, he ran about five miles every day. Yeah. He would come home and he was not mean spirited at all. But he would always, like while he was running, take off his shirt because it was so hot in Houston. And he'd just toss it on one of us, you know, as a joke. I mean, that was cool. I don't know if I could. He. I don't, I don't know what he read. He had me one time and I never finished it. I remember trying to before he came home, read this book, how to get control of your time, money and something else. My youngest daughter read it. The actual. His copy of it?
- [72:19]
A
Yeah,
- [72:22]
B
something. I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [72:25]
A
That's cool. So reading, reading. What else? He had to be persistent.
- [72:30]
B
Oh, he was persistent. Yeah. You know, probably like a little bit of a type A personality in the best ways. How can you not Structure? Yes, yes. I mean, I'm. I'm structure. I like administrative tasks. Make sense to me.
- [72:47]
A
Cool.
- [72:48]
B
Yeah. Yeah. He was a good dad.
- [72:51]
A
Do you have a. Any kind of. Do you feel like responsible to continue to carry a message of his in any way, shape or form?
- [72:59]
B
You know, I should feel more responsible. I. I'm involved just as much as I can with the Challenger Learning center, which maybe you haven't heard of.
- [73:11]
A
No, I haven't.
- [73:12]
B
Big plug. Challenger. Challenger center. There are 33 around the United States within a year or less. Within six months of the crew's death. June Scobie, who was an educator, had the idea of creating a center that would Educate, you know, now it's stem. It's all STEM related. Educate students and teachers. Because of course, my dad's flight had Krista McAuliffe. They all were educators. I mean, I need to make sure they weren't educators by trade, but they all were interested in education, teaching, continual learning. Krista was an actual teacher and her job was she was going to teach from space some lessons that were prepared, but you know, as a living memorial to the crew. There are Challenger Centers all over the country. My husband just, he's doing an executive leadership program and just went to the Challenger center in Chattanooga, which I have to remember where I am. So it's not too far from here. There's one in Chattanooga, there's one in Chattanooga. I mean, they're all over. So it's just a great. People can follow them on Instagram. It's just a fantastic program. These kids learn about a mission. Then they go in their classroom, they go to the Challenger Center. They, they have the roles. They. They participate in a, you know, mock mission.
- [74:32]
A
Yeah.
- [74:34]
B
And. And that's just one of the things that Challenger center does. There's.
- [74:38]
A
I'm following them right now, actually.
- [74:39]
B
I wanted to follow them. This is the. Actually this is the 40 year. So I think it was April. It was April, like mid April, which is the actual.
- [74:49]
A
This is cool.
- [74:49]
B
Start of picture.
- [74:51]
A
You're walkthrough right here in the front.
- [74:54]
B
Is that like. I think it's all the spouses are the family members.
- [74:57]
A
Forty years later, it's all the 1, 2, 3, 4. Yeah, the 7.
- [75:01]
B
Yes. It's. It's just a fantastic organization.
- [75:04]
A
So really cool. Okay, great.
- [75:07]
B
That's something great that's come out of.
- [75:09]
A
Yeah. Wow.
- [75:10]
B
You know, the tragedy.
- [75:12]
A
Yeah, for sure. What do you think the public still gets wrong about the event as a whole?
- [75:23]
B
I don't.
- [75:25]
A
If anything, maybe there's not.
- [75:28]
B
I'm not sure who I mean, I think from my position, when I talk to people about it, I usually have shared my story so they hear what is true. I remember the point where I was talking to people and I realized, okay, they weren't alive when Dan died. So that doesn't really answer your question. But that was an interesting moment where I thought, okay, I need to give a little bit of context about NASA and space and. Because there's a time in our country where nothing was launching. You know, maybe satellites, but I don't know how to.
- [76:06]
A
I don't know.
- [76:07]
B
I'd be interested.
- [76:08]
A
Curious if you hear anything out there.
- [76:10]
B
Probably just details and.
- [76:11]
A
Yeah. Yeah, People have an opinion one way or another, but. Cool. What would you say that families like you guys carry? That nobody sees?
- [76:28]
B
I don't know how to answer that. That nobody sees. I mean, probably the. I don't know if I would use the word. It was a traumatic experience. I don't know if we're living in trauma, but to watch, it's mind boggling that my dad was, you know, miles up in the air. And the trauma of that happening probably is not something which plenty of other people go through trauma.
- [77:08]
A
Yeah, it's different. This one's different. When he. At least to me, I mean, if your dad's in Iraq, in a war and comes home in a casket, that's all the thing, it's sad, that's loss, it's grief. It's all those things. This happened right above your head.
- [77:27]
B
Right.
- [77:28]
A
I don't know if. I don't know if that's even different.
- [77:31]
B
I mean, I feel it. Yeah. You know, and that makes me think, your last question, you know, what do people not see or what do they get wrong? I think that people, you know, I've read things. If you lose anyone, there needs to be even a small part of it where. Okay, I don't know how to phrase it. Is it worth it? Not like, was it worth it for my dad to choose to be an astronaut? Like, why are the astronauts going into space? And I mean, plug for the Kennedy Space Center. If you go there, you will see a huge amount of everyday benefits that we have because of the space shuttles that launch. You know, there's just. You could just look it up online that, you know, look it up online. I don't want to say the wrong things, but there are daily conveniences or things that we enjoy because however many men and women have been launching space.
- [78:39]
A
So like freedoms we enjoy that we can't even count because of what the military does.
- [78:44]
B
Yes, that and our Apple phones. There are things about that. They're just. It was not for nothing, you know, I think that's. Maybe sometimes people have said, you know, well, why are we launching people into space? But. But there's a whole answer to that.
- [79:03]
A
That's a big one, actually. That's a huge one. Yeah, right there.
- [79:07]
B
That I'm still learning about too.
- [79:08]
A
But you don't. Do you feel that? Do you question that now? Why are we still launching?
- [79:14]
B
I think it's really awesome.
- [79:16]
A
You're all in then.
- [79:18]
B
I mean, I am. I mean, the Artemis, that's what your
- [79:21]
A
dad would want you to.
- [79:22]
B
I mean, I think so, yeah. I mean, I. You know, God created the universe, everything for us to be able to do anything that is creative or interesting or discoveries or inventions or launching the space he already put into our world for us to discover. So why would we want to squelch that? Like, why. Why not?
- [79:49]
A
Right?
- [79:49]
B
Go launch, you know? Yes. You can get into the nitty gritty of. Yes. It's expensive, you know. Yes. There. But. But, like, wow.
- [79:57]
A
I mean, necessary, too.
- [79:59]
B
It is, yeah. Like, go for it.
- [80:02]
A
I love it. That's awesome. Do you see your. When you look back right now, do you. Do you look back and see as split down the middle and say life before an event and life after? And do you see two parts in your. I'm just curious for you, like in. Here's why I asked. Cancer survivors that I've interviewed will say there was my life before the doctor said the three words, and then there was my life after. And they have one split in their life, no matter how many other pivot points they had. But you've had two huge ones, really. Right. One was traumatic, one is faith, and one is the disaster. And that's what I want to hear, especially from you, your opinion. Do you see? Wow. I had a split, but then I had another split. Are they the same size? Tell me.
- [80:56]
B
Oh, same size.
- [80:57]
A
How does that feel to you?
- [80:58]
B
Oh, that's. I've never even thought of it that way.
- [81:00]
A
Told you I was gonna ask you questions that you're not used to being asked.
- [81:04]
B
Absolutely. Absolutely. A family of five and then a family of four. Absolutely. You know, Dad, I mean, we still talk about him, and I mean. Yeah, I mean, I would say family of four. Yeah. You know what I mean? I mean, he is gone. He's not with us. Definitely a split. And then. Yeah. And then I think, like, I'd say God stepped in. He was already there. I had this. So I've kept a journal since I was in seventh grade. And, you know, not every day, but probably every day now, but I've started to. My goal was to finish, read through them and kind of get rid of what I needed to just get rid of by the time I was 50. Well, I'm four years delayed on that. But anyway, hopefully I'll get through them. But I was reading through. So my husband Glenn, he was talking just about his life, and. And he was talking about how Jesus impacted his life in the fall of 1989, when we had first started dating, he never really. Okay, here's the gospel, Allison. And 1, 2, 3. He didn't say it like that, but whatever he said, I. The Holy Spirit helped me see what I probably had heard before but didn't understand. And that was what I shared with you earlier, just that, you know, it was my sin that Jesus died for and he was offering me the free gift of eternal life if I confessed with my mouth that he is Lord and believe in my heart. And as I that in my journals back to them, if I read through my words from that fall, it really gets me choked up. Is. And I've shared this with people. It's. It's like I'm reading these words and I just can within the words visualize the Holy Spirit swirling around and doing that. Now, 40 years or 35, whatever, six years, whatever it is, later I see he was working, but as I was writing it, I was not. I didn't. I mean, there's so much. It was just faith of, you know, mustard seed or whatever. I mean, it was teeny. But now I look back and I'm like. It is almost like I can visually see God just working and I can't. You can't argue with somebody's story. And it, it was a change. I mean, you know, like. Yeah. I mean, I didn't. Yeah. Do everything right right away or make the best choices, but, you know, that's. That's your journey. Like, God, he. He takes us on a fun journey. It's been fun.
- [83:35]
A
Yeah. Was it more of. Was it more of attraction than promotion? I love that phrase. It's not unique to me, but was it something you were attracted to in your then boyfriend?
- [83:49]
B
Oh, Glenn was my boyfriend then.
- [83:51]
A
Yes.
- [83:51]
B
And then we.
- [83:52]
A
Was it something like, I like the way he handles things or. Or. Or was it you? Clearly.
- [83:58]
B
I really. It was like. It was like a veil came off my eyes and, And I was like. As much as I could understand, I was like, oh. Like, oh. I never didn't believe in Jesus. I heard Bible stories. We went to church on and off. I did vacation Bible school. But this was a real. Huh. I mean, not that moment, but it was more. I mean, in. I didn't. I wouldn't have put it this way then, but it really, in hindsight, was more an attraction to Jesus. That. That's all like, that's it. God does that. That's him. It's. Yeah.
- [84:38]
A
He plucked you. Plucked you out of the world.
- [84:40]
B
Yes. Thank goodness.
- [84:43]
A
So what matters more to you now? Because of what you went through?
- [84:47]
B
What matters? Give me some choices. What matters more to me now? Relationship.
- [84:53]
A
Do you advocate for anything. Do you see, like. Do you see the fragility of life in their. Before you. You leave your house differently with your own kids. That stuck out to me with yours. Like, I just thought dad was going to work. So I. Me personally, when somebody's going up in a plane, there's always a different kind of risk. Right. I'm older. I didn't think like that back like 20 years ago. I didn't think that way. But after flying around the world and all that stuff, there is more risk. Anything like that.
- [85:29]
B
Well, I mean, show up differently for you. Yeah, I mean, when I became a mom, so I have two girls right away. I mean, they both love the Lord, they're both following Christ, but early on, you know, just gave them a biblical worldview. But within that. And they. We talked about it just recently within that. I always was sure to age appropriately, let them know that if anything happened to me, they would be okay. They just need to press into the Lord. They will be sad. I will see them again. It's a temporary separation. I mean, age appropriately. They have always known my desire for eternity, hope of heaven. They've always known that that's the end game. It is for every. Tim Keller says there's a hundred percent of chance of death in every person's future. So what are you gonna do with that? So I definitely was Something I always articulated to our girls in just a conversational way.
- [86:35]
A
Yeah. Did they ever say to you, mom, if all that's true, then why would they have. Why would God have blown up the space shuttle that day? They usually like the way kids will frame something up and you.
- [86:51]
B
They never did. They never did. I mean, the school. They were in the school where I first started sharing. And so they've always. They've known my story. They've. There's very, you know, there's stuff they don't know. But no, they never. I mean, my husband and I have really. They have their own relationship with God, but we've really tried to teach them through good churches and good community and us, God's character, who he is. He can't change who he is. And so, no, they've never. Why did. They've questioned other things in their own lives.
- [87:35]
A
If your dad could see your life today, what do you think he would say?
- [87:40]
B
Oh, I think he'd just. I mean, I mean, I think he'd say, job well done, Alison. I mean, I think he'd say, you know, like, yeah, he'd be proud of all three of us. All he would. I Mean, yeah. I don't think I ever made choices because, okay, this is what dad would want me to. If anything, I changed. My decisions changed because he wasn't there saying, hey, I think you should do this. I mean, he had me, like, going to the Naval Academy, being. He's like, you could be the first lady Blue Angel. I mean, that was. Part of that, in hindsight, was money, because astronauts don't make a lot of money. I could go to the Naval Academy for free, but. But, you know, like, I could. Yeah, because nobody pays to go to the Naval Academy. I mean, that's a. It's a free school. You know, any of the service account academies are.
- [88:33]
A
Yeah, I was 48 when I learned that. Really?
- [88:37]
B
Yes, yes, yes.
- [88:39]
A
I had no idea.
- [88:40]
B
Yeah. But.
- [88:43]
A
Wow.
- [88:44]
B
Yeah, he would. I mean, gosh, he would love my husband. He would love our kids, he would love who my siblings marry. You know, he would be happy. But that wasn't the story. You know, I used to get caught up in the what ifs and what ifs and what. But you can't. Any person who's had loss, that's a normal response, but it doesn't go anywhere. Yeah.
- [89:12]
A
Anything that I didn't ask that you would want to Probably. I mean, there's a ton of things, but does any. Did you come in here hoping to talk about one thing and I didn't ask it or I asked it differently? Anything you want to share on a platform?
- [89:29]
B
I mean, I think I've said it. I mean, turn your eyes to the Lord like it is. I said that. It's a fun journey. I mean, it's hard. It's not perfect, but it's something you can trust. And that long obedience in one direction. God sanctifies us through whatever years he gives us, and he does. Sanctify. That's a big word. But, you know, he changes us. I don't want to be. I don't want to be the same person at age 80, if I lived 80, that I was at age 40. And that's the fun journey. You know, he gives us a huge range of do this, do this, do this, do this, learn this. It's fascinating. Fascinating.
- [90:20]
A
What a story. One other thing comes to mind, and I'll. I'll conclude here. So I can't help but to think there's tons. I don't know the number. We could probably find it. But young girls who lose their dad, whether it's because of death or incarceration, I don't know. The list is long. I'm curious. Did somebody step into your life as a father, like a father figure in the gap until. Did you say your mom remarried?
- [90:52]
B
Yes.
- [90:53]
A
So just speak to. Was there a gap in time? Who filled it? Did nobody fill it? Then when, when your mom remarried, did that even fill that gap? How did you grow up? Because you went a long time without a dad or a father. And again, I have the page. Hey, the hey, dad, can we page. So I'm helping dads with their sons and now seeing this.
- [91:21]
B
That's a great question. I shout out to my stepfather. I adore him, I love him. I talked to him just last week. He knew my dad. I mean, he loves us kids. I mean, my dad is my dad. Mom didn't marry him until I was in college. I don't want to sound cliche, but if I'm speaking to young girls who lose their father, this is not cliche. This is truth. There is no better substitute than our Heavenly Father. He's the one who has. I've learned more from him than any man on this earth. Even my own dad. He's cared for me better than any person on this earth. Even my own father. I just can't go wrong. I can't go wrong. Yeah. Following after him. That is the truth.
- [92:15]
A
Yeah.
- [92:16]
B
Wow.
- [92:16]
A
Wow.
- [92:17]
B
It's mind boggling.
- [92:18]
A
So don't look horizontally, look vertically. Look vertically. Yeah. Wow. That was remarkable. See now why I like to hold the questions.
- [92:29]
B
Yes.
- [92:30]
A
Some people insist that though they want to know that they don't want to be caught off guard. But you did tremendous, great question. Thank you for coming here today.
- [92:38]
B
Loved it.