Ep. 63: Paul Harrigill - From Small-town Guitarist to Josh Turner's Stage, All in God's Time

Summary

Interesting Humans Podcast

Episode: Paul Harrigill — From Small-town Guitarist to Josh Turner's Stage, All in God's Time

Host: Jeff Hopeck

Guest: Paul Harrigill

Date: November 10, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, host Jeff Hopeck sits down with Paul Harrigill, acclaimed guitarist and multi-instrumentalist currently performing with the Josh Turner Band. The conversation traces Paul's remarkable journey from a small-town, gospel-bluegrass family band in Faraday, Louisiana, to major bluegrass accolades, and ultimately to the national stage with Josh Turner. It's a story woven with faith, resilience in the face of setbacks, and the ongoing pursuit of musical excellence and fulfillment. Rich with candid insights, this episode offers inspiration for dreamers and doers alike.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rapid-fire Introduction — Getting to Know Paul

Timestamps: 00:05–06:06

• Jeff kicks off with a 25-question rapid fire to showcase Paul's musical tastes, influences, and quirks.
  • First song learned: "Oh, Susanna" (02:15)
  • Acoustic or electric preference: Acoustic (02:20)
  • Go-to post-show routine: Food, usually popcorn (02:34)
  • Word to describe Josh Turner: "Loyal" (02:47)
  • Most challenging song: "Time Is Love" (03:20)
  • Stage disasters? “Yes. Time is Love.” (03:30)
  • Best venue: Grand Ole Opry (03:10)
  • Biggest tour surprise: "It's very tiring." (02:58)
  • Who inspired you to pick up the guitar? "My father." (04:58)
  • Most underrated guitarist: Tim Stafford (05:51)
  • Song that never gets old to play: “Firecracker” (06:03)
  • Josh Turner song he loves to perform most: “Wouldn’t Be a Man” (04:40)

"My favorite guitar of all time is the Pre War Martin D-28... but what I actually play is a Boucher, modeled after it—because those originals are $150,000."
—Paul Harrigill (70:11, 70:38)

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2. Early Life & Family Band Roots

Timestamps: 06:10–15:00

• Raised in a close-knit Christian family in Faraday, LA.
  • Dad: Lifetime pastor; music always present at home.
  • Started performing by age 5 (harmonica, then guitar); first show at a local nursing home (07:00–07:39).
  • The Harrigill Family bluegrass gospel band formed when Paul was around 10-11, with dad on guitar, mom on piano, and sister on bass.
  • The family band played church revivals, regional festivals, and recorded four albums, hitting venues like Silver Dollar City and Dollywood.

"My parents never told me to practice. It was just… there if we wanted. I mean, I got bit by the music bug. It's all I wanted to do."
—Paul Harrigill (12:03, 13:18)

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3. Musical Influences & Challenges

Timestamps: 10:17–18:02

• Paul’s musical foundation was supported by his parents and especially his grandfather (banjo enthusiast).
• Faced discouragement as a teen (age 14–15) from a skilled but negative family member, which stunted his growth for a time.
• Learned the value of shaking off negativity and focusing on his personal journey.

"He really put me down… I just kind of stopped... But it's true: comparison is the thief of joy. Be your own person."
—Paul Harrigill (15:24, 16:50)

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4. Committing to Music — Leaving School and Home

Timestamps: 21:06–26:15

• Dropped out after 10th grade (with family support) to fully pursue music; earned a GED.
• Continued building experience through the family band, eventually feeling the need to branch out as family life changed.

"I dropped out of school, took my GED because I knew that music is what I was gonna do. Nobody standing in my way."
—Paul Harrigill (22:38–22:43)

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5. First Professional Gigs & Solo Independence

Timestamps: 25:36–34:33

• At age 20: Received an offer to join Mountain Faith, a bluegrass band from North Carolina.
• First time on his own (and his first airplane flight), balancing band gigs and working in a tire shop.
• Learned music life wasn’t easy—sometimes work (tires) eclipsed music, requiring perseverance.

"Just some country boy trying to figure it out… I'm working at a tire shop and playing music on weekends. I'm tired, you know, this isn't fun anymore."
—Paul Harrigill (27:09–30:41)

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6. Pivotal Personal & Professional Turns

Timestamps: 32:40–39:16

• February 2011: Meets future wife Kelsey (then in the band Flat Lonesome) at a bluegrass competition in Nashville.
• Soon joins Flat Lonesome, her family’s band, as banjo player.
• Moves to Florida, encounters new learning curves, and finds a better fit artistically and personally.
• Attends recording arts school in Nashville, aiming to become a studio engineer, but discovers the industry is shifting due to home recording tech.

"[I] wanted to be a studio engineer… but studios are losing business, everyone can record from their closet now."
—Paul Harrigill (38:51–40:25)

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7. Breakthrough — Flat Lonesome’s Rise

Timestamps: 41:49–47:34

• Flat Lonesome signs a record deal in 2013, leading to a burst of recognition and award-winning albums.
• XM Radio unexpectedly features their debut—boosting their profile.
• Achieved career highs: IBMA awards, festival headlining, festivals, and more.

"There's not one way to get there… Dropping out [of school]—I never had regret. When times are good, I let off the gas, though."
—Paul Harrigill (46:24–46:47)

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8. The Highs and the Grind — Financial Reality

Timestamps: 47:44–53:26

• Despite accolades, still faced financial hardship—worked second jobs and even applied to McDonald's during thin periods.
• By 2019, the grind of non-stop touring and changing priorities (kids, marriage) led Flat Lonesome to amicably disband.

"I remember applying at McDonald's… after signing the deal."
—Paul Harrigill (48:30–48:33)

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9. New Beginnings — Finding the Next Path

Timestamps: 53:26–56:26

• Paul moved to Alabama, briefly worked in his mother-in-law’s cleaning business, reflecting on winding down from music.
• In 2020, receives a life-changing call to audition for the Josh Turner Band, thanks to connections made along the way.

"A friend of a friend texted me, 'Hey, there's a band looking for guitar and banjo...' I was like, tell me who it is, maybe I can help—I had no interest in the road."
—Paul Harrigill (54:14–54:24)

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10. Joining Josh Turner: Choice & Challenge

Timestamps: 56:03–65:20

• Decision weighed carefully (especially with a new baby on the way)—Paul and his wife debated at Waffle House before agreeing to a 30-day trial (56:25–57:16).
• COVID-19 struck soon after, sending the music world (and Paul’s trial period) into limbo.
• Eventually settles into the band as a permanent member; navigates the technical pressure and need to replicate signature songs (notably “Time Is Love”).

"Honestly, I can't even tell you about that first show, I was so blacked out. It went good... that's where their grace comes in. It went okay."
—Paul Harrigill (59:22–59:36)

• Opens up about the particular pressure of playing "Time Is Love"’s guitar solo, originally done by studio legend Bryan Sutton:

"That solo… just kicks my butt, and I hate it. I don’t know that I’ve ever gotten it 100%."
—Paul Harrigill (71:46–72:35)

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11. Adapting Through the Pandemic

Timestamps: 65:20–69:55

• Paul and the band see massive disruption, playing only sparse/odd gigs (like a 30-hour one-off drive to Utah), supplementing income with remote work and cleaning jobs.
• The industry slowly recovers: crowd restrictions, social distancing, and COVID-testing made gigs complicated and financially uncertain.
• Band refused to perform in masks, “just a bunch of rednecks… don’t tell us what to do.” (69:14)

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12. Life, Music & Family

Timestamps: 66:12–81:14

• Paul reflects on balancing music with fatherhood (8-year-old son, 5-year-old daughter), teaching and sharing the music bug, supporting their passions however they express them.
• Discusses homeschooling, the potential of his kids following in his footsteps, and finding fulfillment in their interests—even if not musical.

"My son plays guitar... he's at home, 'Hey Dad, check this out!' My daughter, she can sing—but she's five… she’s just perfect."
—Paul Harrigill (77:52, 81:14)

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13. Motivation, Mindset & What's Next

Timestamps: 82:27–85:29

• Paul credits overcoming negative voices as a key to his drive:

“What fuels me is for somebody to tell me how bad I am and how I can’t do something. And that’s what gets me going.” (83:10)

• Considers himself most motivated by challenge; feels a "struggle" is needed to reinvigorate his push for growth, whether musically, in real estate, or life.
• Open to the future: after nearly six years with Josh Turner, could see himself pivoting to real estate, construction, or any hands-on, blue-collar work.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “My dad would come home from work... I'd be waiting at the door, guitar in hand: ‘Hey Dad, check this out!’ And he loved it.” (13:40)
• "Go play a show, take out expenses, split it five ways... that was it." (28:37)
• "We made it... winning awards... it was like, man, this is it." (43:05)
• On the pandemic: “Any time we went out, it was just a headache... But you gotta eat, right?” (64:30, 64:51)
• "What fuels me is for somebody to tell me how bad I am and how I can't do something. And that's what gets me going." (83:10)
• On balancing personal ambition and reality: “I need a struggle in some area to make me hungry.” (83:20)
• “If you see me smiling or enjoying it, it’s probably a bluegrass type situation.” (75:12)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:05–06:06] Rapid-fire get-to-know-you
• [06:10–15:00] Childhood, musical family, first band
• [15:17–18:02] Early struggles, negative influence
• [22:36] Dropping out of school for music
• [25:31–34:33] Leaving home, first pro gigs, Mountain Faith band
• [32:40] Meeting wife, joining Flat Lonesome
• [41:49–47:34] Flat Lonesome's record deal and big break
• [48:01, 53:26] Financial struggle, second jobs
• [53:36, 56:03] Call from Josh Turner, decision at Waffle House
• [59:22, 71:46] Live show pressure, “Time Is Love” solo
• [65:20–69:55] Pandemic effects & band adaptation
• [77:49–81:14] Kids, family, continuing the legacy
• [82:27–85:29] Sources of drive, what's next

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Tone & Style

Throughout, Paul's humility, humor, and rooted values shine. The discussion is personable, honest, laden with good-natured sarcasm and the wisdom of lived experience. Jeff’s interviewing style is friendly, conversational, and deeply interested in Paul’s full story—not just his professional highs, but the pivots, doubts, and character-shaping reality in between.

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Conclusion

Paul Harrigill's journey illustrates the unpredictable, challenging, and often circuitous routes to fulfillment—personally and professionally—in music or any passion-led life. His transparency about struggles, hard pivots, and the joys of everyday family life add a relatable, inspiring dimension to his story. For listeners, it's a reminder that "success" can wear many hats and often comes "all in God's time."

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[End of summary]

Transcript

[A]

All right, guys, welcome back to another episode of Interesting Humans. Today I have an awesome, awesome episode. You heard of the Josh Turner Band? I have guitar player here, Paul Hargal.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So, so honored to be here. So we met at the last show just a couple weeks ago. Right? Your. Your card, which I joke about, but I've got to show you folks, is. And I've been in marketing for 25 years. It's seriously one of the best. Now look at it.

[B]

How's that?

[A]

Look at that, right? So this is the business card that he gave me. But it was.

[B]

I figured it was a good alternative than to have my bobblehead just on the. On the card. You know, a little more appealing maybe.

[A]

It's just. I mean, it's seriously so perfect. So we spoke to you. We had our four kids at the show and we started talking before. Which first out of the game is so cool, right, that you were there and, like, available. That was awesome. And we talked to you for a little bit. I said, hey, I've got this podcast. And you said, hold on. You ran backstage and you brought guitar picks out for my boys. And it was. It was special in every, every way, shape, and form. So thank you for that. That's the reason that we're here today. So before we get fired up in this interview, here's what I love. This is what I love so much about this show story. Not only are you doing, you're doing. It's your dream, right? You're living your dream, but what's equally as important is you're living it with the people you want to be living it with. And we're going to get into that. How awesome this culture is. And I. I just love hearing you explain that. So we'll get into the whole. The whole story before we do just something a little bit different with interesting humans. I'm going to start it off today with a 25 question. Rapid fire. Okay, so this will give. This will give everybody a flyover real quick of who you are in this.

[B]

Will determine if they want to hear the rest of the episode.

[A]

That's it. That's right. So. All right, you ready?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

One or two words, a sentence at the most. What's the very first song you learned on guitar?

[B]

Oh, Susanna.

[A]

Oh, Susanna. All right, awesome. Acoustic or electric if you had to pick one?

[B]

Acoustic.

[A]

All right. What's your go to riff when you pick up a guitar?

[B]

G Ron.

[A]

G Ron. All right. Ultimate post show routine.

[B]

Food.

[A]

Food.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. Favorite. One favorite.

[B]

I mean, popcorn's a Standard, you know, Great.

[A]

What? One word to describe Josh Turner as a band leader.

[B]

Loyal.

[A]

Oh, that's a great one. All right. One thing fans would be surprised to know about life on tour.

[B]

It's very tiring.

[A]

Tiring. Favorite venue you ever played this one?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Andrew would love to hear that.

[B]

The Opry.

[A]

Yeah, of course. Wow. All right. If you could jam with any artist, living or dead, who would it be?

[B]

Tony Rice.

[A]

Most challenging song you ever had to learn.

[B]

Time is love.

[A]

Ever had. Oh, yeah.

[B]

Really? We'll talk more about that.

[A]

I can't wait to hear. Most challenging song you ever. Okay. Ever had an on stage disaster.

[B]

Yes. Time is love.

[A]

Not the fight from last week.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no.

[A]

Which was also crazy.

[B]

Gosh. It kept us entertained, though.

[A]

Yeah. You know, and the heart. And the almost heart attack that happened before it. Two in one.

[B]

Let's just move on from that.

[A]

But is it. Is it really that? Is it. Time is love.

[B]

It is. It is.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What happens when strings break on your guitar?

[B]

You're just kind of exposed.

[A]

Do you walk off?

[B]

Well, so we have a guitar tech. I know this is. This is a longer answer. We have a guitar tech that if he sees it and he's available, he'll come change it. Otherwise, I'll take care of it right there and try to get back into the song as fast as I can.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it happens.

[A]

Does the crowd know?

[B]

Sometimes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, you probably. Especially if it's right before your solo.

[A]

Yeah. You know, see the interviewer. I mean, I've got 30 questions about that one right there. All right. Coffee, energy, energy drink, or straight adrenaline before a show.

[B]

You already know the answer to that. Coffee all the way.

[A]

Can you pick me up a large Americano before the interview? Yep. All right. Favorite Josh Turner song to perform live.

[B]

Wouldn't be a man. Do you know that one?

[A]

Yeah, sure do. Know them all. Now, tonight will be our fifth show on this.

[B]

Right. We don't do it in the set, but it's one of my favorites.

[A]

Yeah. That's awesome. We'll get into it all. All right. Who inspired you most to start playing guitar?

[B]

My father.

[A]

Okay. Favorite classic country artist of all time.

[B]

Haggard or Jones? One of the two.

[A]

Okay. Who's the funniest guy in the tour.

[B]

Bus other than myself?

[A]

Gosh, there's the sarcasm, right? You're gonna get sarcasm.

[B]

Probably Sean the fiddle player.

[A]

Okay. Fatal play.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I can't wait. I can't.

[B]

He's entertaining.

[A]

We'll talk about all these later. I can't Wait to hear. All right. Favorite guitar of all time, make and.

[B]

Model, Pre War, Martin D. 28.

[A]

Awesome. Okay. Most underrated guitarist, in your opinion.

[B]

Goodness. Tim Stafford.

[A]

Tim Stafford.

[B]

Not sure if he's underrated, but he's not the recognition he deserves.

[A]

Last question. What's the one song that never gets old to play live?

[B]

Firecracker.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, I enjoy that one.

[A]

Firecracker.

[B]

Yeah. That's awesome.

[A]

It's cool. All right, let's get into it.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Thank you for those. That was awesome. Okay, so one of the big differences or one of the things that I've added to the show here is like, really, really going start to finish over the entire course. Okay. Instead of just focusing in on the decade or the 15 years, whatever it might be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we're gonna go. We're gonna go start to finish.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When I notice something that I think is way too important to not dive into, we'll stop there.

[B]

Okay. Good luck.

[A]

We'll go in. So that I guess that's my fair warning that this could be three hours maybe, but. But hey, you got a lot of stuff across the board, so it's most important to frame it the right way.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Okay. So where are you from? And give me, like, the first. First ten years of life. Where are you from? What did family look like? Siblings, folks, et cetera?

[B]

Go now? Yep.

[A]

All right, let's do it.

[B]

So was born at a very young age.

[A]

Sorry, how young?

[B]

Very young. The youngest I've ever been, so I was born into a Christian family. Incredible roots there. My dad's lifetime pastor. He's been a pastor my entire life. I was born and raised in Faraday, Louisiana, so lived there until I was 20. I have mom, dad, and I have a sister. I started music when I was about five. I started on the harmonica. You did? Yeah.

[A]

At school?

[B]

No, my parents or my dad played a little, so he taught me the harmonica. And then we. I guess my first show was at the local nursing home. We'd go up there and my mom would play piano. I'd play the harmonica, you know? So that was when I was 5. And I don't know that I've played it since. It's not really my thing. Yeah, but that's my earliest show. And then when I was six, I got a bright red PV Raptor electric guitar, and I just thought, man, I have arrived. Like, this is it. I had a little amp, you know, so that kind of kicked it all off. And like I said, my parents play music as well. They had a Musical background. Just playing at churches or, you know, around town, that sort of thing. So it was always. It was always in our home. You know, I was. Never told me to practice or anything. It was there if we wanted it, you know, never pushed on us. And I. You know, at 6, you only know so much, you know, So I just played with it for a while, you know, and then kind of switched over to the acoustic guitar and again, just playing for fun, all that kind of stuff. My dad played guitar, my mom piano. My sister played bass. So as we got older, we started a gospel bluegrass band called the herrgel family.

[A]

What age? Older.

[B]

10 or 11.

[A]

10 or 11?

[B]

Yeah. So it was certainly.

[A]

Where were you in the birth order?

[B]

I'm the baby. Yeah. So I'm perfect.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

My sister might say differently, you know.

[A]

Can we patch her in? Can we patch her in?

[B]

No, it's okay. It's okay. Yeah.

[A]

I want to get a second opinion.

[B]

Take my word for it.

[A]

So you're 10 or 11. Whose idea was it to start the band?

[B]

Well, it was a bluegrass band, and my mom's father played banjo, so bluegrass was around us all the time. And my dad's not really a bluegrass guy, but he enjoyed it, you know, and it just. I don't really know what struck it up, but it's just kind of the direction we went. You know, my dad would go preach to church would also be the special music, you know, play. So we did that for years and years and years. So that was outreach. Yeah.

[A]

Going out and serving.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. So it was. It's. It's some incredible great memories that are important to where I am today. As we talked about earlier, family bands.

[A]

Are a little stressful about family, anything.

[B]

Yeah. Temper is high.

[A]

All right. So at this point. So at the point in your life, so you guys start this band, did you have, like, anybody you really looked up to at this point in life? A famous. Whether it was a musician, a mentor, an author. It could be an.

[B]

I had several. My grandfather, my mom's dad. He played banjo, so that. That got me into that. So he was. He was a big part of that. And just his love for music in general, you know, Was he a professional? Like, no, no. He bought a banjo in the 60s, and it's. I've got it at my house, actually. And he just kind of played around the house. He might play at church every now and then, you know, that kind of thing, but nothing professionally. Just loved it. You know, he'd be out working on his cars and have Bill Monroe or flattened Scruggs just blaring, singing at the top of his lungs. You know, I don't know how much work he got done, but music is.

[A]

Such an important part of memories. Like, just on the ride here, my wife. Who were we listening to on the way here? This song, and you're like, oh, my gosh.

[B]

I could just. Yeah. Oh, nice.

[A]

It reminds me of sitting in the car with my dad.

[B]

Yeah. As a child, you remember where you've heard that. Those important songs and what you were doing, that kind of thing, and changed your life. But, yeah, my grandfather, of course, my dad, my mom. Both great musicians, so that sort of thing. Super inspiring.

[A]

Decent student, would you say?

[B]

I was a. I was a good student. I didn't fail.

[A]

You were good enough. Good enough.

[B]

I was good enough. But, I mean, I got bit by the music bug. It's all I wanted to do. My sister was this straight A, you know, book smart, you know, personality like a wall. I'm kidding. In case you're listening.

[A]

Oh, yeah, she will.

[B]

Oh, she will. I'll send it to her and we.

[A]

Won'T cut it out.

[B]

Good. Make this the clip and send it to her.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But no, man, she was the. She was the book smart. And she's got every letter behind her name. You know, school was fine. You know, I enjoyed it. I liked it, but I loved music more. And school was kind of the. It was just secondary to me and my parents. They would. They would pay us for our grades, like, in a little boost to do good. Like, if you got straight A's, this was generous, too. If you got straight a's, you got $40. I never got $40.

[A]

You got 20.

[B]

Yeah. You know, like, A's were a certain amount. B's, C's, you didn't get anything. If you D or F, you had to pay them. So it was. It was entertaining. Yeah. So I may have made a dollar or two here.

[A]

There. Broke even me.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[A]

That's awesome. All right. At that point in your life, did you say, I'm gonna be a professional music player, man?

[B]

It's always something I wanted to be. Always.

[A]

As long as you remember.

[B]

Yeah. Like I said, I got bit by the bug. And it's. I mean, I would play and play and play. I'd go to school, try to get my homework done there, come home, play guitar, and I'd be waiting at the door when my dad got home with my guitar, like, you know, as soon as he walks in from a hard day. Hey, check this Out. Couldn't even let him get his feet in the door.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But, you know, he loved it. Yeah. And my kid's the same way now, and I wouldn't trade it, you know. It's awesome.

[A]

Same thing. See, you're getting to relive it. All right, the band starts. So you're 11, the band starts. Who named it?

[B]

I guess my dad. I mean, that's kind of the. I don't know, like the gospel band. Like any family band. You kind of just take your last name, you know, last name band, you know.

[A]

What was it?

[B]

Herr Gol. Yeah, the Hergal family. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Yeah. Awesome. All right. And that was bluegrass.

[B]

Bluegrass gospel.

[A]

Bluegrass gospel.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. What happened? Walk me through the future.

[B]

Yeah. So I guess that really got going when I was about 10. We did that for years, like I said. Just. My dad would preach at a church, we'd play. We'd do revivals. We'd also do some other gospel events here. And there we were. We did. Recorded four albums throughout the course of the next 10 years. And then we played, you know, places like Silver Dollar City, Dollywood. You know, every festival that you could think of, you know, just living the dream. It was legit. Oh, yeah.

[A]

This wasn't just.

[B]

We weren't making any money, but we loved it, you know, the music way.

[A]

Right. That's so cool. All right, so you're playing. You're playing these venues. What was a struggle? Things sound so awesome, like, from the outside. Wow, that's cool. You're already living a dream. You're 11 years old, you're traveling, playing these venues. Doesn't matter that you're making money or not, but let's flip that on its head.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What did young Paul struggle with.

[B]

Other than school?

[A]

Me, too.

[B]

You know that. Yeah, right. There was a time. I'll try not to go too dark here. There was a time when there was somebody in our life that, as I was learning, he really put me down. And, you know, he was part of our family and, you know, just, you know, you're not doing. You're not playing this right. You're not doing this right. So it got to the point where I was tired of hearing it, and I just kind of stopped, like, pulled back, you know, like just, you know, somebody just put their boot on me. So it took a couple years, and that person was away now, but it would. I guess it kind of stunted my growth there for a little bit.

[A]

What age?

[B]

14 or 15.

[A]

Okay, so anybody out there listening to this take, take note of that. Like, if you're being told that. Because sometimes we're too young to even know right from wrong.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If the person's not encouraging and lifting us up, they're tearing us down. If you have that in your life, like, make a move to rid it. Is that what you would say?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And it. He. Like I said, he was only there for a couple years, and he was a really good musician, so I respected what he did. And of course he's telling me, hey, you're not doing this. You're not doing this. I believed him, you know, because, I mean, hey, you're. Who am I to question you? You know, that sort of thing.

[A]

He's good.

[B]

Yeah. Right. So it took a while to get past that hurdle, you know, and that whole, you know, comparison is the thief of joy type thing, you know, Just be your own person. Like, they might be right, but just work harder, you know? You know, keep going, doing the thing, and it's gonna pay off, you know? Right. Don't let it get you down.

[A]

Just curious. I don't want to spend too much time in it, but. But I am interested. Would. Would. Would you talk to any. Anybody else about that? Did you have any outlet to say, hey, that guy keeps putting me. Like, did you just take it in and take it in?

[B]

Well, without, like, without going into detail. This person was a part of our family for a little bit, so everybody was aware of this person, you know, that sort of thing. But maybe the struggle that I carried on myself was not as evident to everyone else as it was to me internally, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because, I mean, my. My dad's. He's a man, man. It's been. He raised me to just, you know, keep going, you know, so I don't talk about my problems, you know, just do the thing, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Got it. Totally normal. Totally. And then some. At some point in our lives, those things end up coming back and rearing their heads in some way, shape or form. So, okay, awesome. You are. You're playing the band. You're going. Are you doing anything? Sports at the time?

[B]

I played basketball for a while through middle school, and then I realized my height was going to be an issue. So I gave up on that. This eighth grade, I signed up for spring training football. Super excited about it. Like, I was like, I was never been more excited about anything since music, you know, came home, told my parents that I signed up for it. They're like, oh, no, you're not doing that. It's like, what if you Break a finger, like all these worries, you know, and I wound up pulling out of it, which, I mean, hindsight, you know, I could have broken a finger, you know, and I wouldn't be here, you know, so I'm grateful for it, you know, And I'm not as athletic as I thought I was, so it probably saved me some hardship.

[A]

Right? Yeah. Did you resent at the time?

[B]

No.

[A]

Did you resent?

[B]

No, I.

[A]

Was it like. Oh, okay.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it made sense to me. I mean, they knew how much I love music. Music was still the forefront. So it made sense when they said that, you know, and I have the utmost respect for my parents, so I'm not gonna question them trying to help me make the best decisions, you know?

[A]

Yeah. If. If we could go all the way back to then and just hit a timeout real quick and go. If I can separate you guys and go, hey, hey, mom and dad, what do you really think his future is in music? What do you think they would have said back then?

[B]

They would have said music.

[A]

But would they have said, he's gonna be probably the highest level ever? How would he think?

[B]

Well, I mean, their parents, they have a biased opinion, you know, but they. They always knew that I would do something in music. I don't know if they knew exactly what, but they knew that I would do something.

[A]

They knew it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did they. Did they have that same conviction about your other two siblings about anything going on in their life?

[B]

No. My sister, bass player, really great, great singer. But she didn't love it like I did. She was. She loved school, you know, she wasn't.

[A]

Waiting at the door.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. She. She was the person that had to hear me practice for four or five hours, you know, just keeping her bedroom locked. Yeah.

[A]

So she was naturally good at it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it was clear that it wasn't.

[B]

It wasn't for her. Yeah. You know, long term, you know, full time, makes.

[A]

Makes total sense. All right, so you park football on your parents suggestion. Was there anything else, even hobbies at the time? We golf, tennis.

[B]

I don't know, man. Not really. I can't express how much I was into music.

[A]

So it was straight.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Straight line.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. What happened with the band then? How many years did it last?

[B]

So we did. I was about 10. We did it for about 10 years until I was about 20. And all through high school, you know, I just loved it. I mean, I'd be the kid that everybody would be bringing their CD player players with headphones to school. I'd have. I'D have it, too, and have, like, some banjo music. Yeah, it was a little bit different than everybody else, Right, Sure.

[A]

So did it ever monetize.

[B]

As far as.

[A]

Or did it fizzle like? You said you weren't making any money.

[B]

Yeah, I mean. I mean, we made a little bit of money. Just some spending cash, you know, which is incredible. Yeah. But I got an offer to play with someone when I was 20, so I kind of left. And then it fizzled.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Left and fizzled. And just for reference there. So when you were 20 and how old are you now?

[B]

35.

[A]

Okay, so 35. So when I bookmark that, we're gonna come back to it, but. So you're 20, you got an offer. What did that look like?

[B]

So we were. You know, I say it fizzled after that. We were. We had slowed down a lot. My sister was married, and she had a kid already, I think, at that time. And, you know, that changes stuff. So we weren't playing a whole lot, and I knew that's what I wanted to do. I mean, after 10th grade, I dropped out. I knew that school wasn't for me, and we were busy during that time, so, you know, I had an allotment of days that I could miss, so somehow I talked my parents into it.

[A]

Like, you, like, literally dropped out of school?

[B]

I dropped out of school, took my GED because I knew that music is what I was gonna do.

[A]

This.

[B]

Okay. Nobody standing my way.

[A]

Okay. I haven't met. Yeah, this is. Yeah, this is even cooler.

[B]

Right?

[A]

I love it. I mean, that's why we go in these nooks and crannies. So you. So you drop out of 10th grade, but your parents, it sounds like, supported it.

[B]

Yeah, for the most part. Yeah. Yeah, they were supportive. You know, I.

[A]

Very cool.

[B]

I had all my reasons. You know, they didn't really question.

[A]

Did you have to make a presentation to them?

[B]

Yeah. All right, look up here on the whiteboard. You know.

[A]

Right. I mean, it was clear to them.

[B]

Though, they didn't really push back. My dad, he had dropped out of high school, too, and got his ged, so he kind of knew where I was coming from. And he's done well. And they knew what I wanted to do, and I didn't fail grades or anything or classes, but the effort wasn't there, so there was going to have to be a shift one way or the other. And they were supportive. And, of course, I guess that would have been the height of our family bluegrass band. So they kind of used that to do more Things on the road that we were limited to because I was in school, so.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But yeah, dropped out after 10th grade, got my GED and like I said, I just, I was just eat up.

[A]

With it, hard line at it and then what did that look like? So now you got a lot more time. What'd you do? What'd you hunker down and you do?

[B]

I mean, just plain, you know, I didn't really, I didn't have a lot. I mean, I did some jobs here and there. Again, my parents didn't really push me as far as employment. Obviously, I'm still living at home. Yeah. You know, not really in expenses. I mean, I didn't get my first car to myself until I was 20. I just share with my parents and, you know, I'd have some hourly jobs here and there, you know, that sort of thing. But yeah, just music.

[A]

Was it the music life?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, that is the music life. Absolutely right. And at that point, so you're, you're not in school, you're working a couple jobs. Are you looking out, going, I'm gonna figure this out. One, or was it sort of like good enough? Was that good enough? Like, oh, a couple jobs and we'll just make it work?

[B]

There's always that struggle at that age, you know, you're becoming a man, you know, you see that? Okay, I'm gonna have to move out at some point. You know, music's great, but I've got to make a living, you know. So it is back and forth, you know, trying to figure out the path and there. For a while, you know, I thought the family band would work out, but. Excuse me. Sister gets married, has kids, and I see that we're not as busy as we were. It's changing. I've got to figure something out, you know, and I love what we did. It's not like, you know, I just stiff armed them like, you know, it was, it was all respect all the way around. Sure. You know, but, you know, just becoming a man, you got to figure it out, you know, and it hurts.

[A]

So something huge happened then.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. Which I'm guessing will be the next phase.

[B]

Yeah. So there was a bluegrass band out of North Carolina named Mountain Faith and I got the call and 2010.

[A]

So you're 20?

[B]

Yeah, I was 20. Yeah, I was 20.

[A]

20. Yeah.

[B]

And then they were, they weren't, you know, massive scale or anything like that, but they were a great band and really appealing to play with. So I get the call to go play for them and two Weeks later, I'm on a flight out there and I just never come home.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

It was a little painful for my parents. Whoa.

[A]

All right, let's back up now. I have 100 questions. So when you say you got a call, like, how did they hear about you?

[B]

Just through the bluegrass world, you know, friend of a friend of a friend type situation. Yep, Absolutely. Absolutely. So I got the call to play for them, and my parents were supportive. You know, they probably didn't think that I was gonna just yank the carpet out from under them or the rug.

[A]

You know, like, you left and that was it.

[B]

That was it. That was my first flight. First flight when I was 20.

[A]

What airport you were in where? Alabama.

[B]

Oh, gosh. So I was in Louisiana. Louisiana? Yeah. So it was out of New Orleans.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the company was AirTran.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Remember that? Oh, tons of times. I flew on AirTran.

[A]

Tons of times. Yes.

[B]

Wow. So I get on there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, man, I'm so green, you know, I've got every instrument with me, and they're like, hey, you can't bring that on here. You know, so I'm having to check stuff that I don't want to check and all this kind of stuff. And I'm changing planes and, you know, the guy sitting beside me, super gracious, you know, I'm like, hey, where's my bag going to be? Like, is it. Is it going to be in Charlotte or is it Atlanta? You know, So I get off the plane, go all the way to baggage, you know, because I don't know. Then I have to go back through security. I mean, just. Just some country boy trying to figure it out. Yeah.

[A]

That's so awesome. What did they hire you at?

[B]

So I was the mandolin player.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. So during the family, I'll back up a little bit. I played primarily banjo, a little bit of guitar. When we would do some slower songs, you know, the banjo just doesn't work on. But I also played a handful of other instruments. So, yeah, I started playing mandolin with this band.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Now, at the time, were they all instruments related to each other?

[B]

They were all, again, acoustic instruments. Yeah. In the bluegrass type. So the guitar, banjo, mandolin, upright bass. I played fiddle for a time, but that's. That's way gone. Thank God. You know, it's. It's too much work.

[A]

Yeah, too much work.

[B]

Little bit of piano. Not really much to be a pianist or anything.

[A]

Yeah. So you go out, you land in North Carolina. You're now part of this band.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It wasn't an interview. You. You got hired, right. I don't even know how it works.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, paycheck to play in a band.

[B]

I mean. Yeah. So you go, you go play a show, you take out expenses and split however many people there are. You know, I think it was five of us. So gas, hotels were taken out. And then we split it five ways and that was it.

[A]

Give me a, give me. For reference, what size was the band related to something not in bluegrass.

[B]

Like, I mean, it was small. You know, we might be playing to 200 people.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. But, yeah, I mean, you can make a living doing that or a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Back then, a little bit easier, you know, A little easier. But her, they're. They're.

[A]

Now you can buy groceries and that.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What is a grocery budget? Right. Her dad, the lead singer was a girl. Her dad owned a tire shop right there in North Carolina as well, and he was the bass player. So I went out there, we were playing, and I was working at the tire shop. So.

[A]

Interesting. So now you're hired there. What are you doing there? Just front desk kind of stuff?

[B]

No, I was changing tires.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, Changing tires. Changing oil. Yeah. Just in the hills of North Carolina.

[A]

There, you know what town or city?

[B]

Silva, North Carolina. So not too far from Asheville.

[A]

Did you like it in the beginning? Like, first six months, I thought it.

[B]

Was cool because I. I hadn't really gone out on my own. Right. So this, this was it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I didn't do college. I mean, I did it Ashford University online for like six months and absolutely hated it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I had to pay back $5,000.

[A]

But you never got the homesick feeling of like going to school. So this is, this is your school.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I'm just wide eyed on my own, like just taking it in. Yeah. You know, and playing music, working at the tire shop and just for a while there, really enjoying it.

[A]

How. How often would you look in the mirror and go, what the heck did I get myself into? I don't want to do music after all.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe never. I don't know that that was the, the thought and kind of like you said, for the first six months it was awesome because I've never experienced anything like that. But it got to a time where I was playing music and working at the tire shop, and the tire shop was my income and I was. It was like, I don't want to do this, you know, so. Because it was. It was hindering the music stuff and you Know, questioning, did I make the right choice coming out here? Because I'm full time at the tire shop. We're going to play on the weekends. I'm tired, you know, this isn't fun anymore, you know, so it was a drive to try to push myself a little more musically.

[A]

Was there a light at the. Yeah, okay, so that makes sense. Was there a light at the end of the tunnel going, if I could just get to this level of competency, I won't need the tire shop anymore? And if so, like, what is this? What is the next thing?

[B]

At the time, I didn't know what that was. My dad was. He was bi, vocational, so he was a pastor and he worked a full time job. Okay, so seven days a week.

[A]

What did he do?

[B]

He worked at Carquest Auto Parts. He was the manager for many years. He also worked. Yeah, we also worked at a lumber yard before that. Hardest working man. Never heard him complain a day in his life, you know, but watching him work, you know, you've got Sunday morning, Sunday night, midweek service and then working, you know, eight to six every other day and never complain. I just thought that was it. That was life, you know, you have to work a full time job and then music, you know, you do that. So I didn't really know what that line at the end of the time tunnel was. I was just doing what I had to do to survive and hopefully figure it out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Yeah. What's the pivot point? What happens in North Carolina then, or what? Several things happen. I mean.

[B]

All right, so this is where it gets really positive. We. There's a organization called Sports, the Society Preservation Bluegrass Music of America, and it's an annual thing and they have a band contest in Nashville. So this would have been February of 2011. That band I was with in North Carolina, we went to compete in there. There was another band in that competition named Flat Lonesome. My wife, her siblings, or my now wife and siblings. So that's where I met her. And we start dating a few months after that.

[A]

So you didn't even know her?

[B]

I didn't know her, no. Yeah, didn't know her. Yes. I was playing with this band and like I said, we were in the band contest with them. We got second, they got third. So I'm just gonna throw that out there anyways.

[A]

We'll make sure we cut that out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, no, no, no. Not to cut it out, for it to go cut it out and make a YouTube reel on it and tag.

[B]

Exactly. Everybody.

[A]

The whole band that's great.

[B]

So, yeah, I meet her that February, just, you know, in awe, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, wow, here's this beautiful lady that plays the mandolin, and somehow she's slightly interested in me, Like, I better not mess this up, you know? So we start dating a few months after that, and by the end of that year, they had a personnel change. Her. But her brother, who was the banjo player, switched to guitar, and the banjo position opened up. So then I. I left North Carolina, wedged my way in there, and they're in Jacksonville, Florida, at this time. So, yeah, I leave that band in North Carolina, move down to, well, Callahan, right outside of Jacksonville, and start playing with them. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now they're from there. They're from that. So I have a client there.

[B]

Oh, are you serious? Nobody knows where Callahan is?

[A]

Oh, I know exactly where it is.

[B]

So their family's from Alabama, where we live now. But her dad is also a pastor. He took a church in that area when they were young. He was there for 15 years. So it was during that span that I had moved down there, and they were there.

[A]

Okay, I'm gonna put the brakes on. I want to understand. So I asked you before, how does somebody find you? And you said, like, bluegrass is such a small, knit community. So. So you're playing with the North Carolina band, and then you move over to the band which is flat lonesome, which is already in existence. In existence. Is it as easy as just saying, like, since you knew the singer, they called you up and said, hey, do you want to come play with us? Or is it still more formal at that time? Like, they come interview, but we all make a group decision, or, like, how would it look like?

[B]

They did talk about it as a group, but like I said, it's such a small community. Everybody knows everybody. They know your capabilities. They know if they like you. So maybe they've already decided, hey, we should reach out to this person and see if they want to play? Or in the flat lonesome situation, Kelsey and I are dating, and there's that position that opens up for me to play with them. And Kelsey's like, hey, you know, we need somebody. Are you guys cool with this? You know, I'm kind of in the family already, so it. It was easy.

[A]

But dating, like, yeah.

[B]

I mean, what if it didn't work out? You know? Right. I mean, I know how awesome I am. I need you to know how awesome I am.

[A]

I love it. All right. So you're all right. You're in this band. It's It's. It's her family. Right. It starts off her family. Is it an. Is it a lateral move from a compensation standpoint?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And even as far as notoriety, it's. It's somewhat of the same level.

[A]

Even though they won third and you won second?

[B]

Yes. One thing, one thing I'll add to that. We did the band contest the next year, and we got first, so, I don't know. Flat Lonesome did. Yeah. So I like to think that I'm a big part of that.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. And then what did the North Carolina band get?

[B]

They didn't compete that year.

[A]

Okay, that's awesome. That's so cool. All right, so you're playing in this band. Things have to be going well because you end up marrying.

[B]

Right. You end up getting married.

[A]

How long did y' all date for and play together for?

[B]

So we started dating in May of 2011, and then we were engaged by November. We knew it was it and we had plans to get married that next spring. And then I had the idea of getting into recording art school to be a studio engineer. And it was like a three month program thing. It started in March, and her dad was like, you know, hey, look, y' all are grown people. Do whatever you want. We're here for you. But it might be a good idea to go do school and then maybe do something late summer, early fall, which is what we did. So we. We dated, you know, from the time we started dating to we got married about a year and a half.

[A]

About a year and a half, yeah. And you went to that school?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Where was that school at?

[B]

That was in Tennessee or Nashville area.

[A]

And you were living where at the time?

[B]

So I had moved up. We actually had a booking agent and slash manager. She wasn't making any money, but good family friend, you know. So I moved up there and lived with him for months through all of that. And my Kelsey's aunt had a house up there that they had just moved from. They were gonna rent out, so I started renting that. And that's where we lived when we first got married in Murfreesboro.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Murphy. So just kind of. Just kind of mooching off people for a little while. Right.

[A]

Wow, that's cool. So you. You were studying what again?

[B]

Engineering. Yeah, recording arts. I wanted to be a studio engineer. People would come in, record. I'd be working everything to get them, you know, to. Yeah, digital platforms and all that.

[A]

That's different than playing an instrument, though.

[B]

Yes. It's not playing at all. Love Change, you know, your passion. No, the recording stuff I got into when I was about 16, when we were making our family albums, I loved going to the studio. That. Just the whole process. So I had started some of that earlier, so it's always something I enjoyed that went along with my love for playing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So at the time, I thought, you know, man, if I could go do that and just, you know, be a recording engineer, musician on the weekends, get to work with some great clients, all that kind of stuff, that'd be awesome. Like, it's best of both worlds. Best of both worlds. But what I didn't know going into it is how much the recording industry was changing, what year this would have been 2012.

[A]

And the big change was moving from in your hand to digital, I guess.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

CD in hand.

[B]

Yeah, well, yes, that and just the access that people could have to record their own music from their house. Like the. Exactly what we're doing here with this camera. Yeah, exactly. Like, they're making this gear where you can do stuff in your home studio. So these professional studios are taking a hit because, I mean, I've recorded so much stuff in my bedroom, like, just sitting in the closet, you know, but you don't make any money with that. So it was changing when I was.

[A]

Making money with that.

[B]

Like, the engineers.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But you could still sell it online.

[B]

You could. Absolutely. The artists are still doing good at the time.

[A]

The engineers cut down.

[B]

Yeah, but costs are being cut down, you know, because you're not spending $2,000 a day on a studio rental, you know, plus an engineer, all this kind of stuff. So I didn't know that going through school, and when I got out, it was a very hard lesson.

[A]

How'd you learn it? What did it take?

[B]

Well, I started interning at a place called the Tracking Room in Nashville. It's an incredible studio, and just being there and seeing the. The lack of clients, you know, and this was a really big studio. It was one, maybe one of the biggest in Nashville at the time.

[A]

Did they do, like, the biggest names you could.

[B]

They did possibly. Biggest names. It was the biggest size, like, a lot of orchestra stuff. So it was expensive and it didn't work for everybody. Yeah, you know, it was. It was massive. But we might have two or three sessions a week, you know, so I'm just sitting at the desk answering phone calls. For the most part. I'm just seeing, you know, the guy. The staff doing other jobs, you know, cross training. Yeah, exactly. So I'm just Like, man, I don't know about this.

[A]

Meanwhile, you've got a degree.

[B]

Certificate of complaints. Yeah.

[A]

And you're watching it right in front of you. Dry up.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

[A]

So what? So how do you pivot?

[B]

So during all this time, we're still doing the flat lonesome thing, and in 2013, we got a record deal, and it starts taking off. So all of this is going simultaneously. You know, I'll jump ahead, then we can jump back to recording.

[A]

What age? 2013.

[B]

22.

[A]

20.

[B]

You're 23? Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Wow. Okay, maybe. I mean, all this is a lot. So you're 23. I want to hear about this. Okay. Flat lonesome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Big day.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Got our record deal with Mountain Home. It's a company out of North Carolina. Incredible people. We did four albums with them and had. I mean, for us, it was a great level of success, and we got to do a lot of great things. We. One, there's a organization, ibma. International Bluegrass Music Association. Yeah, that's the. I guess it's like the cma, you know, that sort of. That type thing for our industry. We've got a lot of recognition through that. We get to start headlining festivals. I mean, it's just, you know, we made it, you know? Yeah. And we're winning awards. You know, there was one year we won album of the year, vocal group of the year, song of the year. We're like, man, this is it.

[A]

That's incredible. Wow.

[B]

Yep. So.

[A]

All right. It's fascinating. I want to. I want you to get me, like, right there, and I want the goosebumps that go along with it. You've been. You've been playing, you've been part of bands. Things have been good. Certainly some ups and downs, as we all have in life. Now you go to this meeting and sign a record deal. I hear that phrase a lot.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We signed a record deal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know what that means. I know it's good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. But you're nervous going, like, get me there. What does it look like?

[B]

So not so much nervous. I mean, it's just extra exciting, you know, Somebody. Yeah. I mean, somebody's putting their. Their money into you to help you grow, you know, So, I mean, you signed a contract that you know you're gonna do X amount of albums. Yeah. The label's gonna get some money, but you're gonna get a lot of recognition, you know, so they were crucial in that area.

[A]

What does that deal look like? Let's take it step by step.

[B]

They're all different. So, I mean, for this one, you know, we'll give you guys. They also had a studio at their label that we used, so like a recording studio. So we're going to give you x amount of dollars to go record your first album. This includes publicity, all this kind of stuff. You know, we'll make our money back. They'll make their money back through sales and streams and all that kind of stuff. And then they have publicists, all these people that are just pushing us, pushing us, pushing us, you know? So like I said, you know, with every deal or contract, you have to give a little up, but it's taking you to that next level.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And then along that same line, there was a radio DJ at the time, Kyle Cantrell at XM radio. He had the bluegrass channel, and we had just come out with our first album, and he does a thing. It's like a track by track. When someone comes out with a new album album, invites them into the studio, they play a song, ask questions, and do that through the whole album. He doesn't do it with debut bands. It has to be at least a sophomore record. So our manager and her husband, who are well known in the bluegrass community, they call him like, hey, I know you don't do this, but I want you to listen and just see if you'd consider putting them on. And he's like, yeah, yeah, Again, I don't. I don't do debut bands. He said, but for you, I'll listen because I respect you. Then we get the call a week later, he's like, hey, I want to do a track by track with you. So, I mean, just straight out of the gate, doors start opening.

[A]

No way.

[B]

Yes. That was a big thing, too. Just to put us out there for everybody that hasn't heard us.

[A]

Okay. Do you. Do you look back and go, I wish I finished high school, though.

[B]

No.

[A]

Did any debt. Did you ever do that?

[B]

I don't think so, man. I don't think so.

[A]

I mean, I love that about this story.

[B]

Dropping a fascinated maybe on the years when rent was a little tight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, what am I doing?

[A]

It's just good. It's just good. It's good for us to all hear and understand that, because there's 3 million ways to get there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's not one way. It's not right.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And this is such a great story.

[B]

Well, to answer your question, I never had that regret of not finishing school. Always, like, especially getting into marriage and having kids. I had the regret of not pushing Myself harder. You get to a certain point and it's comfortable. Like, oh, man, I breathe a little bit now.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know?

[A]

Right. Yeah. Makes sense. All right, so you guys sign. What did it like? What did it feel like the day. I'm just guessing there's some kind of deal table or meeting table.

[B]

Yeah. Big conference room with everybody in there. Yeah.

[A]

Sign.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who owns the. Who owns the band at the time?

[B]

So technically my wife and her siblings.

[A]

Brother and sister, but not wife yet. You're still dating because you weren't married when it or.

[B]

No, we got married in 2012. This was in 2013 that we signed the deal.

[A]

Okay, so you're banned.

[B]

Yes. You own the band. Well, I was a member, but I didn't own it.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

Just her and her siblings. Okay.

[A]

Her and her siblings. Okay. So you do this deal, you walk out the door, wherever it is, the hallway, whatever. What is it like walking down the hall? Are you going, oh, my gosh, this is incredible, man.

[B]

It's so far back there, I don't even remember. We probably went and ate popcorn. Yeah, exactly. This calls for some popcorn in an Americano. All right.

[A]

You're right. An Americano. So they explode. You, life's good.

[B]

Yeah, let's.

[A]

Let's turn that on its head, though. Let me ask you that question about struggle again. What was. What was hard in life? It sounds awfully darn good at this phase.

[B]

I mean, compared to a lot of others lives, I have it great. So I shouldn't complain, but, you know, the struggle, man, I don't know. Just kind of along that regret thing, you know, not so much. I should have pushed harder in music. You know, being a newly married, there were. There were some tough financial times, you know, there was a dark period there where I remember applying at McDonald's because.

[A]

I just needed some work after signing. Yeah, the deal.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, we're getting recognition, but it's not like it was. We didn't have a livelihood with that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, so I've always, for a good amount of time, had that second job trying to make ends meet. So. Yeah, just the regret of, you know, maybe not committing to something a little more serious earlier on. But then I play this game in my head, well, if I would have done this, I may not have done music, you know, you would have gotten.

[A]

Promoted up some kind of corporate ladder.

[B]

Yeah, I'd have golden a little more money, you know, but that's not what I wanted to do.

[A]

I have a feeling, though, that money didn't motivate you at any point in your life because you wouldn't have chosen that.

[B]

Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, it makes life comfortable, but I don't live by it.

[A]

You don't live by it.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

Otherwise you would have clearly taken a different path. Maybe stayed in school, maybe not.

[B]

Whatever.

[A]

Whatever that looks like. Okay, cool. So then a call comes. So. So we're. So you're at 2013. What year did that call come in?

[B]

2020.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So much later.

[A]

So much later.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What did the next. So let's go from 13 to 20 then. What did that all look like? You did four albums.

[B]

We did four albums, yep. First one, like I said, skyrocketed because of the publicity and exposure that Kyle gave us on XM. Second one did good. And then the third one, it came out in 2015, 2016. That's the one where we won all the awards. I mean, it was like we felt like we were somebody. Like this is what we've been working towards. At that time, we had. It was just music. We didn't have to work second jobs. We may have done some things on the side, but it wouldn't have to go clock in anywhere.

[A]

But it was for fun.

[B]

Yes, exactly. A little spending cash, you know, that sort of thing.

[A]

So three albums in.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, we're still in the van and trailer, you know, because buses are just astronomically expensive. Sure. You know, so we're in the van and trailer, six of us. We got a sound guy too. So it's seven of us driving through the night, going to the next venue, just crotchety. And get on stage and pretend like you're enjoying it, you know. And there came a time. So we had one more album after that that it didn't tank. It's the one I sent you. That was our last one. But we were switching labels when that came out. And we had to let our previous label know, like, hey, we're not re signing with you. So the publicity, all the motivation was not there. So we put it out and it was just there. And then after that, again, just struggles of being on the road all the time and just grinding and grinding. Yeah, we got to do some great stuff. But we got to a certain point, a level of success and we were just like, man, this is it. I don't know that I want to do this anymore. And all of us started at a very young age. So by the time we get to 2019 is when we disbanded. By the time we get to that, we already had our first Son. And he was traveling with us. You know, we were driving separate, just very tiring. And people were getting married, ready to settle down, you know, so it was mostly mutual agreement, like, we don't want to do this anymore, you know, so we disbanded. And October of 2019.

[A]

Is that. What's that process look like? It's like an official kind of thing?

[B]

Not so much. I mean, we still have the name, all that kind of stuff. I don't even know if the website's still up. But we just sit down, and everybody was pretty much on board, so it wasn't really an argument or big discussion. Everybody's like, yeah, I think this is good for now. And we didn't know if we'd come back, that sort of thing. As time goes on and people have families, it's not very likely. And we've gotten some very generous offers to do reunion shows and things like that, and money would be great, but it's just not where we're at.

[A]

Yeah. So when you. When you guys came to that decision collectively, did you have an idea what you were going to do next?

[B]

I didn't, so I. So I'll back up just a little bit. We were in the Nashville area for a lot of that time. In 2015, Kelsey and I moved back to Alabama, where her family's from. And then through some of that time, her mom owns a cleaning business. I would help her on the side. You know, just if we're not working or something, I'd go help her clean. She had commercial, residential, all that kind of stuff. So when we were disbanded, I was just gonna work for her full time. Like, I was cool not doing music, whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, So I was just. I was cleaning toilets, you know? And then that's when we get to the call from Josh. February of the next year.

[A]

Yeah. And I want to frame that up. So where were you sitting?

[B]

So I was in the studio. Yeah, I was working with the band. I was recording them. So that was another thing. I was. I was working for her mom. But I was also trying to push the recording thing a little more because I had time, you know? So I worked on a couple projects. I was in the studio, and a friend of a friend of a friend texted me. He's like, hey, there's a band that's looking for guitar and banjo. Would you be interested? And I texted back, because I hate to say this, I had such a distaste of the road life at the time.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, And I told him. I was like, man, I really don't have any interest. I said, but tell me who it is. I'm happy to help them out. Try to just keep them going until they find somebody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like, who is it? And he just texted back, Josh Turner. And I'm like, how long did it take? Is this dude messing with me? Well, I just started my phone. These dudes are recording. I'm supposed to be working.

[A]

I'm like, sure it is. Sure.

[B]

It's Josh Turner.

[A]

So I threw your phone on the side.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I talked to him. There's a little talkback button on the console. I hit, and it'll go to all of their headphones. I was like, hey, guys, I hate to do this. I need to step outside real quick. They're like, yeah, yeah, no problem. You know, I go out there and call him. He's like, yeah, Josh Turner. He's looking for somebody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, man, you know, it's something I'm gonna have to talk about with my wife and pray about, see if this is what we want to do. And I talked to his band leader that. That evening, and he kind of gave me the rundown. It was. I think it was a Saturday. I was like, man, you need to give me until. Or is it Friday? He said, man, give me until Monday, and I'll have you an answer. And all he said was, let me know we're going to make this work. Okay? So we. My wife and I, we went to Waffle House the next morning and just sat there for two or three hours just talking through all of it, because I had. My daughter was on the way. This was February. She's gonna be born in April.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

We were just trying to figure out, like, is this what we want to do? You know, this is a cool opportunity, and we were gonna try it out for a while. And that's what I told him. I called him. I was like, hey, man, let's. Let's try this for 30 days. We'll see what happens. Yeah, all right. That'd be great. We like you. You just, you know, here's the first show. You know, let's go. So then 30 days after that, Covid hit. Everybody stop playing.

[A]

Let's come back to Waffles. We'll get right into that. So the decision. So you're sitting at a table at Waffle House, couple hours. What are the pros? What are the cons? How are you evaluating this? Yeah, because it. To me, it would seem like, go run real hard, fast. This is an unbelievable name. Let's chase it.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I think most people would agree with that approach.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You had a different approach.

[B]

Approach.

[A]

And I love this.

[B]

Well, that was definitely the pro. I mean, I mean, you don't get those calls all the time. It's a big deal for even to just offer me the job, you know, like, that's awesome. And it's because of all of the connections we made in the past, you know, so one thing leads to another. But, you know, like I said, we have my son, daughter's on the way. I'm going to be gone a lot. I mean, it's. It's 80 to 90 shows a year, not including travel days. So I mean, it's demanding. And that was the biggest con. Is this what we want to do? And that's when we came to the agreement, like, let's just try it for 30 days and see if it's any better than what we just came from.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Obviously the money's better, but again, it's comfortable, but it doesn't drive me, you know? So, yeah, just. We agreed to try it out for a little bit and here I am.

[A]

Yeah, right. Here you are. Yeah. And we got a lot more to go until getting to you sitting here. There's so much. There's a lot of twists and turns, but let's. So, so Waffle House. Let's do it. Let's try it for 30 days. They were okay with that. Yeah, that's pretty cool.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, absolutely.

[A]

That says a lot about who they are.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Organization, I would think.

[B]

Yeah. No, there, there's. This is a great camp. There's a lot of family oriented values in here, A lot of grace. And I'll back up a little bit with Flat Lonesome. We played the Opry many times and Josh actually introduced us one night. You know, there's like a segment host and he brings on the act and Josh introduced us. So he was aware of who we were. And the band leader at the time was. Knew who we were. He had sent some videos to Josh and, you know, it just seemed like a good fit. And they actually, they actually offered the position to a lot of other guitar players. I wasn't their first call and you'll hear that tonight. But the draw. Josh. Josh has bluegrass backgrounds. He wanted someone that played the banjo in the traditional form. So really that's what got me the job, was that. And with Flat Lonesome, I just played banjo. And same thing with my family band. I played guitar on some slow songs. I wasn't really a guitar player. You know, so it. I really had to work hard to stay out here, you know, and there were no rehearsals or anything like that. It was. First date was a fly date to Corpus Christi. So I drive a couple days before. I drive all my gear up to the bus. We fly out a couple days later, get at the show, Bus driver picks us up. You know, we've got 45 minutes maybe just to hit the highlights of the set. And then showtime. And I just had to know my stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, so I. Honestly, I can't even tell you about that first show. I was so blacked out. Well, it went good. You're scared to death.

[A]

I know it went good.

[B]

Well, that's where their grace comes in.

[A]

Yeah. Right?

[B]

It went okay, right?

[A]

Yeah. So when does it not go okay for you? But the crowd would never know it.

[B]

I mean, we're always so hard on ourselves.

[A]

Give me an example.

[B]

So the biggest issue that I have out here, and we joke about this on the bus, is time is love. There's that big guitar solo, and it's. It was played by a guy named Brian Sutton, who is just the guitar player of guitar players. So here I go from playing banjo and a little bit of guitar to, hey, you need to learn this Brian Sutton solo. Like, oh, my gosh. And dude, I still struggle with it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There are some nights I just want to go hang my head, like, literally still. Oh, yeah, still.

[A]

Till right now.

[B]

Yeah. And, man, I'll be playing it. And you know, the first half, I'm like, I'm gonna get this, you know, in my brain. Then my fingers are like, well, watch this, you know, just miss the second half, you know.

[A]

Really? Yeah, but the crowd would never know that you're. For the most part, you know.

[B]

Yeah, but I'm getting the side eye from all my band members, you know.

[A]

Right. They know it's off.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But the crowd.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And yeah, it just sounds all so good and so cohesive. Okay, so day one in a 30 day trial.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was every day pretty much the same. Did you have huge swings?

[B]

For the most part, you know, coming in, you know, I got through the first show and the band leader and I. Well, he would listen to the board, tape the recording from the night before, and just kind of make notes if I needed to do something here or, you know, changes or whatever. Hey, I like what you're doing here. That's fine. You know, that kind of thing. So we sat down that first week on show days and just kind of talked about it. And this Is a. What they call a parts gig. So the bluegrass world, it's a collaborative improvisational type thing. You might not play the same solo, the same the next day, that sort of thing, but coming here in a lot of country bands, Josh's album sounds a certain way, and people want to hear certain things. Things. So I have to learn certain parts of the song that are like the album.

[A]

What's an example with a Time is.

[B]

Love solo, I have to play it like the album because it's such an iconic thing or. Or like, you know, the top of your man. You need to play that lick like it's recorded on the album because that's what people hear.

[A]

It's signature.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Sig licks. We'll talk about that with you a little bit. But, you know, in between there, you know, you can let your personality out, you know, you know, you're kind of doing it for yourself or to compliment what everybody else is doing. But solos and sigliks, those kind of things, they need to be right. So that's kind of what we talked about that first week of, like, you know, hey, you need to be playing this a little bit differently because we're all playing the same part. You know, stuff like that.

[A]

Stuff like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what ultimately then, what's a bad day? Like, you can't get it tuned.

[B]

I mean, there's some of that sometimes, man. Well, sometimes you're just off. It's life, you know? But honestly, the worst days is when the crowd's not enjoying it. And not that I'm doing it for praise, but we're all in this together. Like, I want to have fun, you know, and they pay all this money and just sit there, you know, like, the other night, the fight was terrible, but it was entertaining for us, you know, Gave us something to do that was crazy.

[A]

We never understood what was going on there. But was that a night just because I can recollect, Was that a night where you felt people were into it?

[B]

I think so. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I'm not doing it for the praise. Just, you know, like I said, we're in it together. Let's have a good time. Because then I feel.

[A]

But it's a gauge.

[B]

Yeah. And if they don't enjoy it, then I feel like I'm not doing that. Something Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Yeah. Interesting. Okay, so. So you're in the 30 day now. You said not. Not too many swings one way or another. What point did you say? We're in this? You call your wife and you go we're good.

[B]

Yeah, we're doing it well. I mean, really. We didn't start doing shows again until the next year. So we come off the road and march. We were supposed to go northeast somewhere from Milwaukee or something like that. And then the pandemic stuff's going on and we're like, hey, why don't we just go back home and then we'll figure it out there. Because we had two or three more shows in the northeast. So we did. And then of course, you know, everything's locked down. And it's like that for most of the year, especially for the music industry. So I'm just at home. We really have to make the decision. Decision. You know, I'm a member, I'm there. My daughter's born. I'm around. You know, we do a couple shows towards the end of the year.

[A]

Like local?

[B]

No, no. When we did a one off to Utah. Yeah. Drove too. It was just most bizarre thing.

[A]

Was that like a wedding kind of thing?

[B]

No, it was an outdoor venue. It was the social distancing thing. I mean, 30 hours one way on a bus. But you had to take it because it was money and there was nothing. There was nothing. That was it. So we do that one off, play a show and drive all the way back. I mean, it was like a four day run, you know, but you gotta eat, right?

[A]

Gotta eat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now you're like any other business. You're sitting there day by day going, when is this gonna end?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So what did that all look like? Were you thinking career change? Were you thinking, we're in good shape?

[B]

You know, I was just working back home. I didn't really have to think about it yet until that next year when things started picking up and schedules started coming out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there wasn't. I'm sure there was a discussion, but there wasn't a time. I remember where we were like, hey, is this what we want to do? It just. It kind of worked.

[A]

Yeah. You know, still never question the degree or anything?

[B]

Gosh, no. You know, maybe when I was cleaning the toilet, I was like, you know what? I probably should have stayed in school.

[A]

That's so awesome. What a story. All right, you pick back up, you're back out on the tour, then you're back out going.

[B]

Yeah. And it was a limit. It was 21, I think.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It was a limited amount of shows and, you know, venues required you to get Covid tested. So it was. Anytime we went out, it was just a headache.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I have to go up to My doctor and get the stuff jabbed to my nose, you know, so much I started to enjoy it, you know. But yeah, it was just like. It was awesome to have the work, but it was so annoying just with all the hoops you had to jump through and all this kind of stuff. So it wasn't. It was fun, but it was very trying at times.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

With all that.

[A]

Let's park the music side. Let's go to Paul. What was going on with you? So you're two children in. So you have a two year old and a six, eight months old?

[B]

Yeah, something like that. Yeah. Three, maybe.

[A]

Okay. So where. Where were you personally in life, man.

[B]

For the longest there I was just enjoying life, you know, working back home. And. And Josh, I'll give him credit too. He took care of us during that time as much as he could financially. So it eased some pressure on us for sure. But yeah, so there was. There was a lot of work back home, but it's. It was no different than what anybody else was doing. Everybody was just trying to figure out that time I was working for a mom. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Still cleaning?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Just ramped up a little bit. And you know, those Covid cleanings paid a lot more. Right.

[A]

So it was.

[B]

It was a good time, right? Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, I wasn't doing anything anybody else was doing or wasn't doing, you know? Yeah, we were. Everybody was just working, trying to figure it out. So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And just enjoying the kids. Join my newborn not sleeping.

[A]

Did Covid change anything then in the right. Well, still not. You said, how do you go from two to four if you're not sleeping? You can't not sleep anymore.

[B]

Exactly. You just don't sleep.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I only need three hours, apparently.

[A]

So what did Covid change in the music industry like, at that time?

[B]

I mean, all the restrictions for the most part. I mean, it's. It's kind of back to where it was, as far as I could tell. But at the time, I mean, you know, the crowd was just spaced out. You were doing things at half capacity. So just. It just felt weird.

[A]

Ticket sales. You can't double the price of the tickets, right?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Okay. Was there a push for artists to go online and start any kind of online stuff?

[B]

I mean, yeah, there was a lot of that. Our bass player was actually talking about that yesterday. During that time, he did like 200 live streams with somebody just to, you know, play music.

[A]

To teach, like, instruction?

[B]

No, no, no. Just. Just playing shows. You know, people give, like, some tips. Venmo PayPal, that sort of thing. And there were some other acts. I forget their names, but some bigger artists that did streaming shows so they would do like a concert online, you know, so that's. They did. I don't think it really stuck. Yeah, because it was just awkward. It's like people going to church in their cars and honking their horn. You know, when they like it, it just. It's just weird.

[A]

Drive up communion.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But it really didn't get back to normal until 22, I think.

[A]

Did you have to play music with a mask on?

[B]

Oh, no. And we. I mean, gosh, man, we're just a bunch of rednecks, you know? Don't tell us what.

[A]

That's why we love you guys. I mean, one of the reasons.

[B]

That's. That's the joke that we make about Alabama. Like, what do you do in Alabama? Whatever the heck we want to do, you know? And so, I mean, there were. There were venues that were sticklers on that stuff.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. And we just politely or not, just told them, no, we're not doing that, you know, and we were still doing COVID testing there for a while, so, like, you know, we're good. I'm not. I'm not doing this. You know, we checked out. We wouldn't be here if there was an issue, you know, But I mean, we play a lot down south too, so you didn't run into it all the time. But there were. There were a couple.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, but. Yeah, we weren't. We weren't wearing masks on stage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just not doing it. Yeah. Might look better, but.

[A]

It'S awesome. All right.

[B]

Getting worked up over here.

[A]

Yes. All right, so way back in the beginning, the fourth question I asked you was, what's your favorite guitar of all time? Make and model.

[B]

Yeah. All right, so what do we have here? So my answer was a herring. A pre war herringbone. Martin D28. Yeah, that's not what this is because those are about $150,000. But this is. This is a Boucher guitar. It's modeled after that guitar. Okay. Specs and all that sort of thing. I've had this one for about 10 years. Great builder, Robin Boucher out of Quebec, Canada.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I have this one. I have Boucher on stage. I have one at the house.

[A]

How do you. Is it with a, an R at the end?

[B]

B, B, O, U, C, H, E.

[A]

R. So that's so my wife's. Wow. Granddaddy. That's a name. We got to look.

[B]

We're going to have some French Canadian there.

[A]

Boucher. That's cool. All right, let's. So I'm going to give you an opportunity to show us. Show us. I don't want to let you off the hook and say, just show us how to, like, show something cool. Show me that hard part that you said that hardest.

[B]

Oh, absolutely not.

[A]

I gotta see it.

[B]

No, I'm not putting myself in that position. I'll play something.

[A]

Explain it. If you don't want to play, explain it, because I didn't understand what it.

[B]

Is you talking about. The time is love in time. Right. It's just that. That sol. Oh, that's garbage. It's. It's very difficult.

[A]

That's garbage. What you just.

[B]

Oh, that was absolute garbage. But, yeah, that.

[A]

God. Wow.

[B]

It just kicks my butt, and I hate it.

[A]

Okay. How much longer would you have had a play to hit the hole?

[B]

That was it. Yeah, I just fumbled over the end. Yeah. And it's one of those. It's a little bit slower than that because you got me all worked up about it, but it's one of those where if you miss a certain note, it's really hard to come back in. Like, you almost have to just. Just wait a minute and just come in at a different spot. Yeah, it's. It's Brian Sutton. He's just. He's a monster player. He's played on thousands of hit hit records, you know, and then me coming in, just trying to hang on. You know, the banjo stuff's easy out here. And really, after that song, I really enjoyed the second half of the set.

[A]

How often do you. Like, how often do you get that right versus get it wrong?

[B]

I don't know that I've ever gotten it 100%. There are nights when I'll hit the 90s. There are nights when I just shouldn't even be up there, really. And maybe, you know, like you said, from Alyssa listener perspective, maybe they don't quite catch it, you know?

[A]

What would we catch? I mean, it sounds like.

[B]

I mean, just all the mistakes. I don't know.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Just how often it sounds.

[A]

So what's your favorite? Like, what's your favorite piece to play? You said something. Firecracker.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Firecracker's awesome. Yeah. I don't have the capo for it, but it's just. I mean, it's just this big rhythm. Like, it has. It's country, but it sort of has this bluegrass inflection that kind of scratches the itch for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, so it's. Yeah, just one of those sort of things.

[A]

One of those.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

What's the difference in bluegrass?

[B]

And I mean, just the playing style is very different. So in bluegrass, there are no drums, little to no electric bass. You usually have an upright. I don't know if you notice when we do the little bluegrass segment, downstage upright dobro, like that's bluegrass. Ish. You know, we still have the drums.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'll notice that tonight. I'll look for that.

[B]

Yeah, it's about halfway through when we do Me and God and those sort of songs. It's just the playing style is different.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Bluegrass music is very acoustic driven. Country, I mean, it's there. There's some similarities, but country is just. I don't know, it's just different.

[A]

Can you play both on here? Can you play country on here and then transition over to bluegrass?

[B]

So country, like something we do out here. Year, man. Something like that. You know, it's just this full rhythm and, you know, the percussiveness comes from drums and all this other kind of stuff. Or bluegrass, it might be a.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Something like that. Maybe done a little better.

[A]

Wow, that's awesome. All right, now I know what to look for tonight. Katie and I will be on the lookout for that.

[B]

If you see me smiling or enjoying it, it's probably a bluegrass type situation.

[A]

All right. And we'll hear Sweet Home Alabama.

[B]

Of course you will.

[A]

Okay. We look forward to that. Let's look at where you get. Where do you get fed? So you're entertaining people all the time. Where do you get your humor, podcast learning, etc.

[B]

From?

[A]

What do you like?

[B]

I'm kind of all over the place. I hate to admit that I don't read as much as I would like to. I've read the first half of a lot of great books. One that I really enjoyed. It's been a while, but Gary Vee, crushing it. Yeah, it was a great book. I do a lot of podcasts. I do the Joe Rogan stuff. Interesting humans, of course.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know, that's my favorite new favorite. Yeah, Love it. I did the Dave Ramsey show a lot.

[A]

Good one.

[B]

Yeah, I really enjoy it. My wife and I did FPU back in the day and. Yeah, it's just. I hate for other people to struggle, but it's nice to hear other people's struggles. And then the way out, you know, that kind of gets. Gets motivated. You know, I go through spurts where I don't listen to music in the car. Sure. It'll be podcasts or just sitting in silence, you know, that sort of thing. So it just, it really depends on the day.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, so you have a, you have a ride home from work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you mostly silent? Are you half and half silent and country music? If so, what do you listen to? Other genres?

[B]

Yeah, I listen to a lot of jazz. I can't play it, but I love it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So let's just say, you know, we get back into Nashville, I'm driving home, it's two hours. So I could, I could probably hit all of them. You know, I might start out jazz and go to country or whatever. You know, I'm kind of all over the place. Yeah.

[A]

How's your headspace in the solitude? Is it let me be silent because I need to think about these five things or are you one of those that can go silent and like drive two hours and not even think of anything? Some people.

[B]

That's not me.

[A]

That's not you.

[B]

My brain is non stop.

[A]

Is it?

[B]

Yeah. Like even, even at night I have to have a show or some sort of distraction or I will just go insane trying to lay there in silence.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, so there are times when I sit there and contemplate, but there are some times where I want the distraction to keep my mind from just going and going and going.

[A]

Yeah. Kids into music?

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Getting into it.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

At what capacity?

[B]

My son plays guitar. He's killing it. He's eight.

[A]

Eight?

[B]

Yeah. We took him to ibma, which I'd mentioned earlier, big music thing, and he got bit by the bug and just again he's. He's at home playing and he's like, hey, dad, come check this out. Look what I learned, you know, that sort of thing. My daughter, she can sing. She hasn't really shown interest in instruments, which is fine, you know, great, but she's a great little singer. For five years old. You know, they might come to you.

[A]

With a band idea.

[B]

Yeah, they have great pitch.

[A]

What do you do? Have you. And you may have thought of this, maybe you haven't. What do you do when they come to you and say they, I don't want to go to school anymore and they're in 9th grade, 10th grade, whatever.

[B]

I don't know. Well, they're homeschooled at the moment, so they're not going to pull that card on me. You don't have a choice. Get to the table. I don't know. I think it's great to finish school, but if there's a situation where they go through 10th or 11th grade and. I mean, maybe my sons want to do a blue collar thing, you know?

[A]

Great.

[B]

I'm gonna support you. You know, it can be done. You know, there might be some struggles, but there is with anything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you want to be a doctor. Yeah. I'd really like you to go to college.

[A]

Yeah. You don't have an option, but it's not like. It's not. Oh, I don't want. Dad. You only went to 10th grade. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna drop out right now and sit.

[B]

I don't even know that they know that or something. Yeah. I don't even know if they know.

[A]

Oh, yeah, they're gonna know.

[B]

So I won't.

[A]

Once this goes out.

[B]

Well, you mean we can get out of this? My son, his ambition right now is music, but we flip houses on the side, and he is dead set on being an architect. So I'm like, man, if you could do that and do some music, that'd be awesome.

[A]

Why? Like, what is he doing?

[B]

He loves building stuff. He plays that Minecraft thing. It's so stressful. It's like, dad played with me. Like, I'd rather do anything else. I play because it's you, but I hate this.

[A]

I know.

[B]

It's so. But, like, he's just got a. He's my kid, so of course I'm gonna build him up, but he's just gotta. He's wired differently. He loves how stuff works. You know, puzzles and building stuff on Minecraft like you wouldn't believe. You know, I mean, I'm sure you relate to all that, so. I mean, there's something in his brain that's making him want to design stuff, so I'd like to keep entertaining.

[A]

You ever figure it out, let me know. Because we had the same. When our first born. Yeah, that's exactly him. And I think others do other dads that I've spoken like. I'm sure there's something genetically or birth order or something, but they're the builder.

[B]

They're the.

[A]

They don't have to be pushed at all. They're making something. They're curious.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know?

[B]

Well, and talking about the flipping houses stuff, which we haven't discussed, but, I mean, he's in there ripping floors up and helping me build walls.

[A]

Really?

[B]

I mean, he's.

[A]

Okay, that's next level, then. That's Nas.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's awesome. At 8.

[B]

Yeah, he can. He can read. He can read a tape measure better than some of the subs I work with. It's awesome. And he's free, so.

[A]

And he's free, right.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Do they come out in the road sometimes? Yeah, they were actually gonna come out this weekend. It just didn't work. But if it's close enough, you know, we'll drive.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. And your girl is five. Okay. Five can sing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What else? Any sports or anything?

[B]

Just being perfect, you know, I don't care what you know. She lives the rest of her life. Great answer.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

My broker, his. His daughter just went off to college.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And just absolutely rips. Ripped his heart out because, you know, she's just not there anymore. So now every time I see my daughter Leah, I'm like, you know, yeah. She's gonna grow up and break my heart. This is awesome.

[A]

Oh, I know.

[B]

You guys will have it, too.

[A]

I can't even think about it yet. Oh, we have a long time.

[B]

Oh, yeah, she's two and a half.

[A]

We had a long time.

[B]

But no, she's. I mean, she's a five year old. She's all over the place. She's not really into anything. She's into whatever Carter I'm doing, you know?

[A]

Yeah. It's fascinating how you latched on from an early age and at 35 now, nothing's changed. Like you were latched on your whole life. It's really cool. Despite all the twists and turns, it was never questioning, should I even be doing this? Should I be playing music? The questions were in other places, but. All right, one thing. One thing in your life that you would say that shaped you into who you are. Paul, music aside, one thing.

[B]

There are several. And just, you know, without going too deep and dark, there's that one that I mentioned earlier.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

About the guy that really put me down. You know, I came out on the other side of that. Came out great as far as overcoming that hurdle. But that kind of shaped me in my adult life because I absolutely hate motivational speaking. I think the people that do it are awesome and it works for certain people. But I. What fuels me is for somebody to tell me how bad I am and how I can't do something. And that's what gets me going. Wow.

[A]

Probably because of.

[B]

Well, I think it definitely relates to that, but, you know, when times are good, I kind of let off gas a little bit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I need. I need a struggle in some area, you know, to make me hungry. Yeah. Again, back to my broker. We didn't really talk about the real estate stuff, but he's, you know, I'm New to the business. And he sits me down. He's like, hey, man, you're doing great. It's a really slow time of year. Like, don't get discouraged, you know, And I'm not. And I told him, I was like, you know, I've been on the road. I haven't been pushing like I should have, but there will come a point when I'll get hungry enough, and it's. I'm gonna be aggressive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I'm happy right now, so I'm not pushing the gas as hard.

[A]

That's right. How do you get that out here on tour? How do you get pushed? And, like, do you have. Do you have other men speaking truth into you, saying, hey, you're slacking off, or.

[B]

Well, it goes back to that Dave Ramsey show, you know, just to. I mean, it kind of talks nasty to them sometimes, you know, and some of their troubles I'm related to.

[A]

It's great, though.

[B]

Yeah. That's what I love.

[A]

Yeah. I want more of that.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, the biggest thing out here, because it's the same show night after night, so we're not really in here rehearsing, practicing. I probably should, but it's just being homesick, you know, and wanting to. I love this with all my heart. My wife's supportive, but at some point, I would maybe like to do something else and be home a little more. So working towards that thing, whatever time frame it could be, you know, it could be tomorrow, it could be years from now. Sure. Just working on something to free me up a little bit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know. Yeah.

[A]

It makes sense. How many years are you out here with Josh Turner?

[B]

Next February will be six years.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Six years. Yep.

[A]

Is it typical to go past 10 years?

[B]

I mean, the drummer's been here 21. Really? Yeah. It just depends on the camp.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Some guys are, you know, lifelong members. Some guys are. There a minute.

[A]

What would you be doing if it wasn't music?

[B]

Love real estate. I love flipping houses. I love all kinds of blue colors stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I really don't have the exact answer, but I'd be working with my hands in some sort of fashion.

[A]

Something in and around that. Probably something that has to do with. With. With real estate. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. All right, man. That's incredible. There's some great highlights in here. Some great highlights. So I want to say thank you, man.

[B]

Thank you for having me. Really enjoyed it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Love you and your family.

[A]

Thanks, man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sam.