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10% Happier with Dan Harris
Lust, Addiction, and Ambition: Why Your Desires Are Wired to Disappoint You | Joseph Goldstein
01:07:24
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- [00:00]
Joseph Goldstein
Foreign.
- [00:05]
Dan Harris
This is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello, my fellow suffering beings. How we doing today? I have this memory, and this will be a brief story, but I have this memory from many years ago when I was sitting at dinner with a very smart friend who described his life strategy as accumulating as many pleasurable experiences as possible as a way to avoid looking into the abyss. And that's kind of an extreme articulation of what is, I think, an mo. Consciously or subconsciously, for many of us, we're all trying to collect as many dopamine hits as possible in order not to think about the fact that we're all going to die. But from the Buddhist pov, we're really looking for happiness in the wrong places. While the Buddha was in no way anti pleasure, he didn't say that, you know, we shouldn't sip lattes or eat pizza or go to parties or anything like that. But he did describe this kind of pleasure as being like licking honey from the edge of a razor. It's dangerous psychologically because while we can derive pleasure from these experiences, they are fleeting and they cannot provide lasting fulfillment. The good news is that the Buddha recommended a kind of, and you'll hear me use this phrase in this episode, a kind of counterintuitive upgrade. Methods for finding happiness in other, more reliable sources. Here to do that is my old friend and meditation teacher, Joseph Goldstein. He's the author of books such as 1 Dharma. He's also the co founder of the legendary retreat center, the Insight Meditation Society. This episode, what you're about to hear, is part of an occasional series we've been running with Joseph, where I interview him about the various teaching phrases he uses. Let me explain what I mean by that. Joseph likes to teach using these pithy little mottos, these Buddhist ear worms that kind of weasel their way into your brain and surface at the moments when you need them the most. But by the way, the eventual goal of these interviews is to turn them all into a book, a collection of Joseph's phrases. So you're really getting a chance here to eavesdrop on our process. This is a great episode. You're going to love it. I do want to say, though, while I'm on the subject of Joseph and meditation and Buddhism and the Insight Meditation Society, one of Joseph's longtime friends and collaborators and co founders is Sharon Salzberg. Many of you are familiar with her. Sharon just signed up to collaborate with me and my team on a very cool project this summer. Every Sunday from July 12, through August 30, Sharon will be doing live events over on my app, the 10% app. It's going to be an eight part live video lecture series where Sharon will break down one of the foundational Buddhist lists, the Eightfold Path, which you can think of as the Buddha's cookbook for human happiness. So every week, Sharon will talk about one aspect of the Eightfold Path, everything from how to meditate more successfully to how to deal with other people more successfully. Oh, and she will also guide us in meditation and take our questions throughout the live sessions. So if you want in on this, head on over to danharris.com and sign up for the app. All right, we'll get started with Joseph Goldstein right after this. As you know, I think exercise is a crucial part of a happy life. We were designed to move our bodies and if you want to exercise in a consistent and abiding way, you really need to be able to listen to your body. And part of listening to your body is taking a look at your blood work, knowing what's going on internally for you so that you can make the right adjustments. A lot of people overlook the fact that your muscles don't just need training. They need the right internal conditions to recover and stay strong. And those conditions often show up in your blood. 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Talking about phone, Internet, TV because I can't do this podcast if my Internet is janky. I can't communicate with my team if my Wi fi is constantly going out. Spectrum business keeps businesses of all sizes connected seamlessly with fast reliable Internet, advanced wi fi, phone, TV and mobile services. Spectrum Business offers 100% US based customer support 24. 7 to help you stay up and running, Spectrum Business offers tailored connectivity solutions with packages built for your business budget. Millions of business owners rely on Spectrum Business to keep them connected. Visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Let's talk about that design flaw in the human operating system Desire. You've got a bunch of phrases.
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Joseph Goldstein
I'm very familiar with this. The old greedy type.
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Dan Harris
When you say you're a greed type, what do you mean?
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Joseph Goldstein
I mean the basic characteristic of that type has to do with my mind going to what's good, what's beautiful. It's like the description of the different types. You go into a room and the greedy type will see what they like. The aversive type will see what's wrong. The diluted type won't notice anything. It's just so classic. You can just see it play out. There are some people whose first reaction is no. My first reaction generally is yes. In terms of a Persona, it's not about greed in the classical connotation of the word, but it goes to what one enjoys or what one likes or what's good. You know, each one has the positive side. The positive side of the greed type, it's faith. It'll work out. No problem. Whatever it is, it'll work out. The aversive type, it's not going to work out. There's this problem, this problem, this problem, this problem. But the positive side of the aversive type is discrimination. So it's good to have both because often the aversives are seeing stuff the greed type is not seeing.
- [07:32]
Dan Harris
Just to put this in a little bit more perspective for anybody who's new to Buddhism and Buddhism.
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Joseph Goldstein
Oh, I didn't know we were. I didn't know we were going. I thought there was still in the green room.
- [07:43]
Dan Harris
You're always being recorded for anybody new to this stuff. In the Dharma, they talk about the three personality types. Yeah. But even before that, the Buddha talked about the three poisons, you know, in the mind. The greed, hatred and delusion. And so it's often discussed that we all kind of have one that we that is a magnet for us, that we are drawn to. And for you it's greed. I think for me too, for some people it's aversion. And then for some people it's delusion, meaning that they're just a little bit spaced out or don't fully know what's the upside of delusion.
- [08:14]
Joseph Goldstein
Equanimity because they're just not reacting to whether it's pleasant, whether it's unpleasant. We love to talk about, oh, are you greedy type, angry type, deluded type. It's just more fun in a way. But we don't want to forget that each one is just half of a pair of that quality. And so each of those qualities has the positive manifestation of them.
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Dan Harris
And we all have all of them.
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Joseph Goldstein
Yeah, all three.
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Dan Harris
Yeah.
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Joseph Goldstein
But often one is predominant. But one of the things that's helpful about it, besides just being a fun personality game, is it really helps to depersonalize a lot of behavior. So, for example, at an IMS guiding teacher meeting, we have classic representatives of each type. And it's just so first, it's amusing. You can just totally predict what somebody's response is going to be to a proposal. So as I said, my response will almost always be, yeah, that's a great idea. We can do it, no problem, let's go. And the aversives type, they'll list all the reasons why it's not a good idea. And the diluted type won't have an opinion about it. But what helps in the discussion then? Depending on the energy with which each person is presenting their viewpoint, it just depersonalizes, you realize, oh, yeah, that's just the aversives doing the aversive thing. And I'm sure they're saying that about. Oh, that's just Joseph and the desire type doing it's, you know. So it makes the discussion a lot less fraught.
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Dan Harris
Yes.
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Joseph Goldstein
Because we're not personalizing it. It's kind of fun to play with it.
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Dan Harris
It's helpful, actually, because I've been in the experience of personalizing it and it doesn't usually go well.
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Joseph Goldstein
Exactly.
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Dan Harris
So let's talk about some of your phrases in the sphere of desire or greed or wanting, in no particular order. One that really sticks out to me, and this comes from the Buddha, is the terrible bait of the world. Can you talk about that one?
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Joseph Goldstein
Yeah, I love. It's part of a longer quotation, which I don't remember at the moment, but I love that phrase because, okay, basically there's six kinds of bait. The sights and sounds and smells and tastes and bodily odors, bodily sensations and mind objects. So that's what's referred to as the bait of the world. It's basically the five sense, six sense, including the mind. I love that image because it reminds me, obviously, of a fish biting on the bait. But within the bait there's a hook. And to see ourselves, our Own minds just biting on the tape on the bait of all of these sense impressions, mind included. And the biting on the bait, the terrible bait of the world, has to do with our reactivity to them. So we bite with greed and trying to hold on, or we bite with aversion, trying to get rid of it. So we're often in reactive mode. And so that's the terrible bait of the world. And of course, the practice is learning to see the bait without biting on it. So the analogy or the metaphor may break down a little bit, because it's not about not experiencing these things, which would be impossible. We're alive with sense apparatus, so we'll always be experiencing these six objects. But are we biting on each one in a reactive mode, or are we just experiencing them in that moment? And they come and go, and the mind's not disturbed by it. But I love the image of the fish biting because I can just. It's like I can almost imagine my mind biting like a fish for the worm.
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Dan Harris
For the average person, desire, wanting, it doesn't seem like that big of a problem, right? I mean, our whole advertising ecosystem is filled with getting us to want stuff.
- [12:47]
Joseph Goldstein
You just conflated a couple of things here that don't go together. The world of advertising with this is its whole mission and the statement, it's not a problem. Because I think that world is contributing to a lot of problems, you know, feeding this endless wanting.
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Dan Harris
I'm playing devil's advocate here. I'm just arguing that the average person, People haven't been exposed to spiritual traditions like the Dharma, may not think that wanting and desire is such a big
- [13:20]
Joseph Goldstein
problem on certain levels. It's not a big problem. I was just reacting to your bringing in the advertising world. I don't think they're conditioning our minds in a very helpful way. To illustrate my point, one advertisement that just comes to mind. It was an ad, and back in the day, it's not used so often now because it was advertising cigarettes. And so there was this beautiful couple, beautiful woman, handsome man in this beautiful surroundings, holding some cigarette in their hands. And the caption was, nothing stands in the way of my pleasure except for lung cancer. So in terms of what advertising is doing to our minds is kind of feeding that idea that different sense pleasures will be ultimately fulfilling. That's the problem.
- [14:20]
Dan Harris
Yes.
- [14:21]
Joseph Goldstein
You know, obviously there's nothing wrong with that. Just ordinary way of living and enjoying in a reasonable, moderate way, the different pleasures that happen in our lives. But so many people equate happiness with the accumulation of sense pleasures. And that's really not where happiness is to be found, because, yeah, they certainly give momentary pleasure or even sustained pleasure sometimes, but they're not ultimately fulfilling. Mostly because of the great truth of the mermans. They're there for a while and then they're gone. And so then we need another and another. There's a nice little story of the Sufi teaching figure Nazruddin. So a lot of stories about him. I'm kind of a mythical figure in the Sufi tradition. Half saint, half wise man, half fool. That's the half special. That's like the answer date. He has three halves. There are many stories. So one who's outside his house, scrambling around in the ground, you know, under a lamppost, and he's looking for his house key. He lost his key. So he's looking, looking, looking, can't find it. And so his friends come over and, you know, what do you look for? A house key? Well, where'd you lose it? Oh, I left it someplace in the house. So I said, why are you looking here? He said, well, there's more light here. So we are looking for happiness in the conventionally obvious places. So that's the analogy. If there's more light here, conventionally speaking, yeah, we get more and more pleasurable things and that'll make us happy. But it doesn't, as is very obvious, when we look around, even at people who have every resource, every kind of sensual happiness, it's very clear that it does not guarantee happiness because it's not really where happiness is to be found. There's nothing wrong with kind of the way we just live our lives in an agreeable, pleasant fashion, going on nice vacations, having nice food when we can, and all of that. But it's not going to fulfill our aims. If our aim is happiness and fulfillment and peace, because it's a never ending, because they don't last. So that's always them looking for the next one and the next one, the next one. So our lives are never in that state of fulfillment. And this is where a spiritual practice really can offer us something, but these kind of pleasures can't. So it doesn't make them wrong. It just. They don't fulfill their promise of bringing happiness. And that's why the Buddhist teaching, particularly for lay people, monastics, have their own framework of renunciation. But for lay people, the Buddha acknowledged that worldly happiness is a source of a certain kind of happiness. But he showed us that there is a much more fulfilling path. And I think for people who have some Experience in this kind of meditative practice. I think it's not uncommon for people to at least get a glimpse or a taste of the more genuine kind of happiness that's available. So as laypeople, we find the balance. You know, we're living our normal daily lives, enjoying life as we can, but also dedicating some time and energy to a deeper pursuit.
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Dan Harris
As part of that deeper pursuit, you mentioned a word, renunciation. Now, we did talk about this in one of our earlier episodes in this series, but I think it's worth going back. Renunciation is, as you've often remarked publicly, not in the modern or Western mind predicted particularly attractive. And you like to reframe it. And this is another of the key phrases I think, that we'll include in this book. You like to reframe it as non addiction. Can you hold forth on that?
- [19:09]
Joseph Goldstein
Yes. So addiction can take many forms, you know, and many levels of intensity. So we can just get addicted to certain habits we have as an example of this. And again, this goes back to having a certain sense of humor about one's mind. So I was on one self retreat. And when I got up in the morning, first thing, I like my cup of coffee. It's almost what gets me out of bed. So I'm on retreat, come down to the kitchen. At that time, I was grinding coffee beans, making the coffee, and just. It was all quite meditative, just having that quiet time. One morning, I go down, the coffee grinder was broken. And the first genuine thought in my mind was disaster. And it felt like a disaster in that moment. So even ordinary habits of mine, which normally we don't even think about, can have an addictive quality. It's not that profound because within about 10 seconds, I started laughing at my mind. That's why I say there's a wide spectrum of addictions. Of course, in the extreme cases where people are really addicted to alcohol or to drugs or whatever it may be, the suffering of that is very apparent. But this whole question leads to another really interesting and in a way, profound insight that comes out of meditation. And so this would be a little meditative exercise for people, particularly in meditation, you know, could be seen clearly when we sit. And maybe the mind's caught up in some desire for whatever it could be. For food, for sex, for whatever. And so we're caught up in the wanting, the wanting mind. Often it's felt as pleasurable, you know, because we're anticipating all of this in our minds, of course, but we're anticipating, you know, what it would feel like. And it's about a pleasurable experience, which is why we're wanting them. Okay, so if we're paying attention to the mind that's wanting and even experiencing, noticing the pleasurable aspect of it, then just to watch, watch. And at a certain point the desire is going to go away because everything is impermanent. So it'll be there, be there, be there, and it's no longer there. To pay attention to the quality of the mind in that moment of transition where it goes from wanting to not wanting. My experience, and I think this is quite common when it goes to not wanting, there is a dropping back into a quality of peace and ease. It feels like it's being let out of the grip of something. When we're in that haunting mind, it's like being in the grip of, of that desire. And even though there may be a pleasurable aspect in some way, when we're actually paying attention to the energetic field of it, it's a tightness. So we don't have to accept this because somebody says it. We can actually look in our own experience in just the way I suggested. So we watch the feeling of the wanting mind. And then when ends, it becomes so apparent that even when it's pleasurable in some way, not wanting is a greater pleasure, not wanting is a greater ease. But this is something that most people are not familiar with because they're just not paying attention to their minds in this kind of precise way. Just one other example, I've seen this so many times, but one time I was in New York walking down, I don't know, it was either fifth Avenue or Madison Avenue, one of these high end areas in New York with these shops with all these fantastic things in the windows. And I was walking down, looking in the windows and I could just feel my mind leaning into the window, metaphorically. Oh, that would be nice. Oh, I'd love to have that going on and on. And at a certain point I realized what my mind was doing and then I did the equivalent. I didn't do this literally, but it was equivalent to just noting seeing. I didn't actually note seeing, but I dropped into that space where I was just seeing. And then I was walking up the street just seeing. Mindful of seeing, mindful of seeing, but not in a heavy like not noting, seeing, seeing, seeing. But I was in that relaxed space where my mind wasn't wanting to. And it just felt so much more easeful and enjoyable. And then I was still seeing the same stuff that I had been, but without that Wanting, grasping mind. And again, the felt experience of that is just so much lighter and so much more easeful. You know, at one point, the Buddha talked of seven different kinds of happiness. And the happiness of sense pleasures, which the Buddha acknowledged does bring a kind of happiness, but it's the lowest of the seven. So there are just experiences of happiness that are much greater.
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Dan Harris
What are the other six?
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Joseph Goldstein
The next one is the happiness. The second one most people probably don't have the experience of. But in the Buddhist cosmology, you know, there are many planes of existence. So there's the human plane below us, the animal plane, and above us, different heaven realms, right? So earthly sense pleasures are the first level of happiness. The heavenly sense pleasures are the second level. But the third level, which we can access and experience, is the happiness of concentration. So when the mind is well and deeply concentrated, there is a happiness and a ease and a peace that is so far superior to the happiness of sense pleasures. And that's why people who have developed some degree of concentration could sit for hours in that state, because it is so easeful and so fulfilling in a certain way. Now, is there a sense pleasure that you could think of? And in fact, one of my teachers was a great master, a woman called Deepama, who was one of our great inspirations in practice. She had amazing abilities both in concentration and in wisdom. She could go into a concentrated state and sit for three days absorbed. Absorbed in that state. Could you eat for three days? Could you listen to music nonstop for three days? Could you have sex nonstop for three days? Sense pleasures don't have that capacity at all. And yet this is a capacity of our own minds. The level I'm describing now, like, of Deepama, that's unusual, but we can all taste that might be for an hour at a time or two hours at a time. That's not outside the range of ordinary people's capacity. So we really can experience that level of happiness for ourselves. Higher than that is the happiness of insight, where we're not absorbed in the object, but we are attuned in a very complete way into seeing the flow of impermanence, the rising and passing of phenomena where it's all happening by itself. At that point when the practice becomes effortless and we're just abiding in that flow, that's a greater happiness because that really has the taste of freedom. Whereas with deep concentration, it's a fantastically satisfying state, but it doesn't have that flavor of freedom.
- [28:12]
Dan Harris
By freedom, what do you mean?
- [28:15]
Joseph Goldstein
Well, the mind, free of various defilements like greed or hatred or delusion, but also one might call it kind of the flavor of wisdom. So it's having the mind free of defilement, but with understanding. So for example, in the concentrated state there could be temporarily a state of the mind free of defilements, but the mind is just absorbed in that state. So there's not necessarily the wisdom component, the understanding component. In insight, in deep, deep stages of insight, the freedom of non clinging is very apparent. That's what comes to the forefront at different stages. Sometimes it's exhilarating and sometimes it involves a profound equanimity where the mind is just not reactive, it's just in a state of peace as phenomena keeps happening. It's not like being absorbed in a concentrated state where one is not even aware necessarily of other things. Here we're completely open to everything. But in this place of non profound, non reactivity, pleasant, unpleasant, doesn't matter. So that's a kind of happiness. That state is likened to the mind of a fully enlightened being. We're not yet fully enlightened, but we can reach that kind of equanimity along the way. And I find that interesting that that's how they describe the mind of someone who is fully enlightened and they just abide in that, revisit it. So that's a fourth kind of happiness. And then there are three others which are a bit esoteric. Would just have to do with the experience of Nibbana. Nibbana is the Pali word, Nirvana is the Sanskrit word people are more familiar with. So then there are just descriptions of that. So there are all these kinds of happiness and the happiness of worldly sense pleasures. There's the acknowledgment that they do bring a kind of happiness, but they're at the bottom of the heap, so why not? And my teacher Manoj, he said something great and really inspired me. He said if you aim for the highest, all the others will come along on that path. So then why not aim for the highest? We're not giving anything up in the sense, yeah, we'll still have worldly sense pleasures. We'll develop the concentration, the insight, maybe even a little visit to the heaven realms along the way. It's expanding our vision of what's possible for us as human beings because often we have just a very limited view of what brings happiness and peace. So that's what's so beautiful about the teachings
- [31:29]
Dan Harris
coming up. Joseph talks about why there may be nothing to want. In the end, a simple Buddhist framework called gratification, danger and escape and why letting go can actually feel better than getting what you think you want. I have a great marriage, but one of the sources of tension in our marriage recently is that we're both competing over my favorite socks from Bombas. Sometimes I see Bianca wearing my Bombas and I get a little annoyed because those are my socks. I earned them by being the host of this show. I'm specifically referring to Bombas sports socks which are super comfortable, very fashionable and designed with sports specific tech for running, cycling, yoga, hiking, you name it. But they make more than just socks. They also make underwear and t shirts, Base layers breathable, flexible, really soft. A full on upgrade from your usual basics and for every item you purchase, an essential clothing item is donated to somebody facing housing insecurity. One purchased when donated with over 150 million donations and counting, head on over to bombas.com happier and use the code happier for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B A S.com happier with the code Happier at checkout Lately I've been trying to be a little bit more intentional about what I wear every day, leaning into pieces that feel easy, comfortable and still put together. It just makes getting dressed simpler. Quince has been a big go to for me in this regard. The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are clean and everything just works without needing to overthink it. Quince has all the wardrobe staples for spring. Think 100% European linen shorts and shirts from $34. Lightweight, breathable and comfortable but still looking put together and clean. 100% Pima cotton tees with a softness that has to be felt. Their pants also hit that same balance. Relaxed and comfortable but still polished enough to wear pretty much anywhere. I have a black pair of chinos from Quints that I wear at least once a week. Everything is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. Quint's works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen so you're getting premium materials without the markup. Refresh your everyday with luxury you will actually use. Head to quint.com happier for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U-I-N-C-E.com happier for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com happier. So a few minutes ago you gave a very practical meditation instruction which could be done in meditation or just in our free range living to let a desire pass to watch it Pass, come and go, which, by the way, I think is another phrase. But there are other meditation instructions that I've heard you deliver that I think might be worth talking about. One of them is a phrase that you've already uttered in the course of this conversation, but I've heard you describe it as a thing we can do in our practice. And. And the phrase is not wanting.
- [34:52]
Joseph Goldstein
Nice.
- [34:53]
Dan Harris
How can we use that practically?
- [34:56]
Joseph Goldstein
So that first came to me again on retreat. So this is also a plug for people when they have the opportunity and interest to actually come on retreat. Because periods of intensive meditation practice, they deepen our concentration, they strengthen our mindfulness, so they do all these things. But it's also where a tremendous amount of learning about our own minds take place, because we're just devoting some period of time to watching it, as my teacher Munindraji said. When I first went to India looking for a teacher, I met him. He said something so basic it hooked me. It completely hooked me. He said, if you want to understand your mind, sit down and observe it. I loved it. There was nothing to join, no ceremony, no ritual. How else could we understand our minds except by observing? So this is a plug, a little plug for retreat practice. There's just so much that we discover. So I was on the self retreat and a phrase came to mind that's found in the Buddhist texts. Often very simple phrase, but one with tremendous implication. And according to the stories in the text, people sometimes would hear the phrase and get enlightened. So, Dan, here's your chance. Whatever has the nature to arise, which is everything will also pass away. Whatever has the nature to arise will also pass away. So I was sitting. I was sitting meditation quite deep into my practice, and that thought came to mind, but it wasn't a thought that would happen. Like if I were reading the text, where I would, oh, yeah, everything's impermanent and we kind of just acknowledge and pass over it. But because it arose in my sitting, it really felt like that phrase entered the very process that was going on in me. So it felt very internalized. So whatever has the nature to arise will also pass away right in the midst of my just being, with the flow of changes. So then my mind, in seeing, in being, in the lived experience of that phrase as it came, and the obvious truth of it. So then my mind just thought, particularly in the context of meditation, therefore, there's nothing to want, because whatever I want will also pass away. And it was amazing. So just in that moment, that thought came. Whatever has a niche to arise will also pass away. Oh, therefore there's nothing to want. In that moment, I could feel my heart and my mind relax back from a subtle wanting that I didn't even know was there. It was just that we've talked about this before, that subtle leaning into the next moment. And that leaning could be kind of a wanting more concentration or wanting more calm or some wanting. But, oh, therefore there's nothing to want. And I could just feel that dropping back, which is really the nature of mindfulness. It's not wanting, it's just being present and letting things unfold. And so now sometimes I'll just drop that phrase, there's nothing to want, just in the middle of my sitting. If it comes to mind, there's nothing to want. And very often I'll feel the same dropping back because that wanting can be super subtle, as I said, where we don't even know it's there.
- [39:05]
Dan Harris
I have found it useful too. When I remember to do it, it's like a relief.
- [39:11]
Joseph Goldstein
Yes. So there are all these little, I don't know if this is the right expression, meditative hacks, just these little reminders of profound things.
- [39:20]
Dan Harris
Yes. It's the whole spirit of this book we're working on.
- [39:23]
Joseph Goldstein
Yes. Yes.
- [39:24]
Dan Harris
What I'm about to say could represent a faulty memory on my part, but I have a memory of being on retreat with you and you telling me about some words from the Buddhist texts, maybe even words from the Buddha himself that could be used as a meditation instruction. And those words are gratification, danger and escape. Does that ring a bell for you?
- [39:49]
Joseph Goldstein
It doesn't ring a bell that I told you that, but the phrase rings a bell.
- [39:52]
Dan Harris
Okay, so could you describe what those words mean and how we could apply them in our minds?
- [39:58]
Joseph Goldstein
Those words have been the subject of an hour long Dharma talk. So this is going to be a very compressed version.
- [40:06]
Dan Harris
Okay.
- [40:07]
Joseph Goldstein
Of it. And in fact, I have talks on that which people could listen to.
- [40:12]
Dan Harris
Let me just put in a plug for that. Dharmac.org D H A R M A S E-E-D.org I will put a link to that in the show Notes if you're driving. That is a website that has compiled thousands of so called Dharma talks. Those are the talks that are given during the evening on meditation retreats. And you can search by subject matter and by teacher. It's an amazing resource. And if you want to listen to Joseph talking about gratification, danger and escape or anything else, really check it out. Okay, go ahead.
- [40:44]
Joseph Goldstein
So gratification is the Buddha's acknowledgment that we do have gratification, as we were just talking a little bit earlier, from ordinary sense pleasures, there is a level of gratification and pleasure that comes from them. And the Buddha said it's because of the gratification that beings are enamored of this world. There is the acknowledgment, yes, this is part of our lived experience, that things do bring us pleasure and a certain level of happiness. So it's not denying that. So that's the gratification part. In brief, the danger is that when we cling to them, we suffer because if we're clinging or attached to something which in its very nature is going to change, the result is some kind of distress. So an image that actually a meditator came up with, we might have talked about this previously. He used the image in describing his own experience of rope burn. So if you're holding on tightly to a rope that's being pulled through your hand, the tighter you hold on, the more rope burn you're going to have. Well, we do this a lot in our lives. Unknowingly, whenever we're attached to something, to the rope, which is inevitably be being pulled through our hands, things are changing in their very nature. The tighter we hold on, the more we suffer. So that's the danger. So there is a gratification, but it's not without its danger. The escape is to free the mind from the clinging and from the attachment to just our momentary experience. So it's not thinking we shouldn't have these experiences. We can't. I mean, that's impossible. You know, we're being with six senses, mind included. So sense experience is going to be happening all the time. But the key issue is whether we get attached and cling or not, or just stay open in our experience of them without. Without that grasping. So that's the escape.
- [43:12]
Dan Harris
The escape, again, just to put a fine point on that is essentially it's just the ability to be mindful of whatever our desire is. Whatever our clinging is.
- [43:25]
Joseph Goldstein
Right, whatever we're clinging to, yes.
- [43:28]
Dan Harris
And just to watch it come and go, it kind of goes back to the letting the desire pass.
- [43:33]
Joseph Goldstein
Yes.
- [43:34]
Dan Harris
So how would we use this phrase gratification, danger and escape in our practice?
- [43:40]
Joseph Goldstein
Well, one is just as a kind of reflection, you know, either when we are beginning to obsess on some level about the gratification we're either having or anticipate having from a sense experience. Just reflecting on the three phrases. Okay, yes, acknowledge there is A gratification, but watch out for the danger. It's like having a sign on the beach, dangerous undertow or something like that. There's a potential danger here. And danger means it's just another word for suffering. The Buddha's just reminding us, be careful here. There is a gratification, but if you get attached, and the stronger the attachment, the more suffering there will be when things change. I think it's more kind of a reflection than practicing not holding on, practicing the escape from the danger. This goes back to what we were just saying before about how much more easeful it is, the state of not wanting than wanting. So we think we're giving something up, taking away our happiness. That's just the product of advertising.
- [45:05]
Dan Harris
Right. It's a counterintuitive upgrade.
- [45:07]
Joseph Goldstein
That's a good expression.
- [45:09]
Dan Harris
So there are a couple of words that the Buddha uses that I've heard you repeat approvingly in this regard that are actually, this is really just totally in line and apropos of the counterintuitive upgrade, because these are words that we do not generally use in a positive way, but the Buddha does. Disenchantment and disillusionment.
- [45:32]
Joseph Goldstein
Yeah, I love those words. Yeah. Usually when we hear those words, somebody's disenchanted or disillusioned, we think it's a downer. They're no longer in a good space or in an uplifted space. But if we just look a little more carefully at the actual word. Disenchantment means waking up from the spell of enchantment, you know, and there are a million fairy tales about this. You know, the Wicked Witch or somebody coming, casting a spell, you know, on whoever, and then they're in limbo until, well, they turn them into a frog or something, waiting for the Prince Charming to come and give them a kiss. They wake up from the spell. So disenchantment is totally freeing. We're waking up from being enchanted by delusion. I'm just not seeing clearly. What brings happiness and disillusionment is the same thing. Why would we want to live in illusion when we really see what the word means? It's good to be disillusioned so we can see things accurately. Disillusionment, in its very essence, the word doesn't mean despair or withdrawal or apathy or doesn't mean any of that. It means seeing without illusion. So I guess there could be some people who would argue with that, but it's hard to see why. Of course, we want to see things without illusion. So that's why I love those words.
- [47:19]
Dan Harris
Well, in the same spirit, another thing the Buddha said, that I've heard you also repeat very approvingly, is what the world calls suffering, I call happiness. What the world calls happiness, I call suffering.
- [47:29]
Joseph Goldstein
Yeah, it's all in the same mode. It's like that Nasruddin story where we're looking for happiness in the wrong place because it's the conventional place to look, or there's more seems to be more light there, we can see potential happiness more easily, but it's the wrong place. That's not where genuine happiness is to be found. So it'd be good to be disillusioned of the belief that it is to be found there and to be disenchanted with the experience of it and to wake up to greater potentials for happiness. The Dharma is so straightforward. None of this is super esoteric and it's all testable. And this is one aspect of the Buddhist teachings which attracted me from the beginning. It was never a question of you have to believe this or dogma or blind faith. It was always just come and see for yourself, test it out. That's what our practice is, testing all these teachings in the laboratory of our lives.
- [48:48]
Dan Harris
Those were the words the Buddha used. Come see for yourself. Yes, yes, yes.
- [48:51]
Joseph Goldstein
Come and see.
- [48:52]
Dan Harris
Come and see. E hi pasako. Yeah, those were the words in Pali. Yeah, Come and see. Not come see for yourself. Come and see.
- [48:59]
Joseph Goldstein
Come and see.
- [49:02]
Dan Harris
Coming up, Joseph talks about this very powerful question, how much is enough? We also talk about about why contentment might be the real form of wealth and the difference between guilt and wise remorse.
- [49:22]
Joseph Goldstein
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Dan Harris
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Joseph Goldstein
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Dan Harris
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Joseph Goldstein
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Dan Harris
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Joseph Goldstein
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Joseph Goldstein
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Joseph Goldstein
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Joseph Goldstein
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- [52:09]
Joseph Goldstein
Yes, that's a great question to ask because again, it goes back to kind of the nature of our society and culture, which is in so many ways you need more. Whatever you have is not enough. You need a better car or a bigger house or this or that. Have you ever seen an ad that says you have enough? I think we should have an ad campaign. You have enough for you are enough or you are. Yeah, even better. And of course this is not to say that there are not people who don't have enough. So we want to acknowledge the full range of human experience. So we're talking about situations here where people do have genuinely enough. They have enough food, they have enough shelter. They're just the basic needs to lead a reasonably comfortable life. So it's not about that. But once those basic needs, even including basic level of an enjoyable life, to have that, to hold that question, well, how much is enough? Can really free the mind from that kind of unhealthy and stressful, ambitious striving for more and more and more because that's just more grasping and more clinging and it does not create happiness in our lives. The Buddha said the highest wealth, the greatest wealth is contentment. And that's a really beautiful statement because we always think of wealth as accumulation instead of wealth as a state of mind.
- [54:06]
Dan Harris
Right?
- [54:07]
Joseph Goldstein
So if the mind is contented, there is tremendous wealth. It's enough, have everything I need. And when there's not contentment, no amount is enough. So again, it's just these very simple, simple truths that we can come and see for ourselves whether it's true or not.
- [54:34]
Dan Harris
Yes. As I'm listening to you, I'm experiencing these like, curly cues of truly deluded thoughts. Like, I know these thoughts are stupid, but I'm gonna say them out loud because I suspect I'm not the only one who has these kinds of thoughts. This is just gets tangled. I was just thinking about. So I used to be a news anchor and then I retired. And, you know, I think there are probably people in my industry who raised an eyebrow. You know, you walked away. I had like pretty good job. Walked away to be a meditation guy, you know. And so just say none of this works out. Right. I do this thing where I project myself into their minds looking back at me, thinking, what would they think of me? And so sure, I could live in a very simple way with my wife and son. I'm quite sure I could largely be happy with that, even though I would be, you know, my late capitalistic mind state would have to get updated a little bit and. But then I think about what would other people think of me in those quote unquote degraded circumstances? Do you see where I'm going with this?
- [55:38]
Joseph Goldstein
I do. Pretty diluted. First, there are a few threads here. One is one thing Moon Ninja told me years ago. It has saved me so much suffering. Said, you can't take responsibility for other people's minds. You can take responsibility for your own, which just relieves such a burden. People are going to think what they think about you and you have no control over it. It may be accurate, it may be inaccurate. That can have all kinds of thoughts or projections or whatever. If you are clear in yourself and you are leading an ethical good life, why do you care what other people think? You can control it and what does it matter? That's their mind. That is their challenge, to deal with their mental viewpoints.
- [56:39]
Dan Harris
In this case, it's even dumber than that because this is me projecting into other people's. I don't even know what they're thinking. They might be envious.
- [56:47]
Joseph Goldstein
Yeah, whatever. Whatever they think. The key to unhooking from even projecting what you think they might think is to realize who cares what they think. It's important. I have to qualify that if the people we're talking about we respect as having wisdom and understanding and balance, we might want to really listen because wiser people than ourselves can often be a tremendous help. And of course, that's the great benefit of being with wise people. And the Buddha emphasized the value of hanging out with wise people as opposed to unwise people. So in that regard, it would be valuable to care what they think. Right. Because it can be helpful. But I'm talking in a more general way with people not in that category. So just another example of you have already experienced the wealth of contentment. It's like when you or I'm on retreat, could be living in a simple room with a bed, a chair, maybe a desk. That's it. Like when you go to a meditation center. Very simple, simple living. When I was in India, even more basic, or much more basic, they were some of the happiest times of my life. I was so happy to have a place where I could practice the physical surroundings. First one just gets used to them and it's not even an issue. And they were irrelevant. Conditions were pretty bad. It didn't matter at all. I was so happy. So we can learn, and we do learn in situations like that, that happiness is just not dependent on what we think it is. And that's a great thing to reflect on. And even without going to India or living in a one room meditative cell or whatever, we don't have to go to that extreme. But just realizing in whatever we have and we're content is just an ease and a peace and we get off the treadmill of always wanting more.
- [59:22]
Dan Harris
Can I go back to something you said a minute ago that is slightly off the theme of this episode, but it's just interesting and probably worth saying a little bit more about. You talked about, like, why care so much what other people think with the important asterisk that we should care about what some people think. It reminded me of a Buddhist concept. I think it's called hiri or otapa. It's like a healthy shame.
- [59:47]
Joseph Goldstein
Right.
- [59:47]
Dan Harris
Shame generally is not so helpful, but there is a kind of healthy shame. Can you just say a little bit more about that?
- [59:53]
Joseph Goldstein
Yeah. So the Buddha talked about these. The Pali terms are hiri, otapa, and they're two different related mind states. The classical translation, which is not a very good one. So moral shame and moral dread. Yeah, but you could call it healthy shame or healthy fear or just a sense of conscience. That's a more positive way of expressing moral shame. If our conscience, conscience, if we're sensitive to it and it's developed, then when we do something that's unskillful or causes harm, there is a feeling of shame or realizing that wasn't good. And so there's a wise remorse in that. And also the other is like fear of wrongdoing. So again, the words sound a little maybe harsh or. But actually it's just that sense of wise reflection that, oh, yeah, if I do this, it's going to cause harm to myself or others. So there's an inner, we could say, fear or reluctance or restraint from doing that action. And the Buddha called these two the guardians of the world. Because if people really lived with hiri otapa, we would be very sensitive to times when we do make mistakes, we do things that are not wise or skillful. So instead of being blind to that and just going ahead out of these habit patterns, we really see the consequences of it. And sometimes there's a process of making amends if it's possible, but at least recognizing it is, and then it becomes part of a restraint in the future. Oh, I won't do that again. So all of that comes from a wise reflection.
- [61:54]
Dan Harris
You may have said this, and I missed it, but is any part of hiri otapa worrying about what wise people might think like, yes, it is.
- [62:03]
Joseph Goldstein
That is one of the descriptions. Can't remember which of those two it's linked to, Whether it's the wise shame or the wise fear of wrongdoing, it's probably the second. And reflecting on what the wise may think of what we've done. So once I was in a monastery in Burma. There was just this one line. I was on the wall someplace. And it wasn't just exactly, but in a way it summarizes it in a really simple way. It said, avoid doing what you will later regret. And I thought, that's such a simple expression. If one can imagine regretting something that one has done, why do it? But to have that in mind before we act. And we've all had experiences, it's just part of our human life. We've made mistakes and we have done things that were wrong, harmful, whatever. But there's a learning from that, if we're open to seeing it, so then we really learn. It's almost part of the process of purification of mind, purification of our heart. It's by seeing the mistakes with a kind of wise remorse, now, that was not good, and learning from it. So then there's growth in understanding and growth, in ethical behavior. It's always good.
- [63:41]
Dan Harris
Purification can be a tough word for. At least for me, but. So you're not saying we are going to be pure eventually and maybe if we become a Buddha, but purer than we were six months ago?
- [63:55]
Joseph Goldstein
Yeah. I never used to use the word purification because I had some of the same kind of intuitive reaction just to the word in English and maybe I don't know what associations, but if we just step back from whatever conditioning we have about it, if we think of just. We are in a process of purifying our minds from greed, from hatred, from delusion, from all the causes of suffering, and yet it's a whole path. But then we can say, no, this is a good thing. Why not purify our minds of those forces? It's a gradual process.
- [64:34]
Dan Harris
Yeah. I mean, maybe a less triggering for some way to say it. It's just training the heart and the mind.
- [64:39]
Joseph Goldstein
Yeah.
- [64:40]
Dan Harris
I think we have either wisely or inadvertently teed ourselves up for the last phrase that I want to ask you about, which is back on theme, but also related to this whole shame or remorse or regret thread that we've just kind of might have seemed like a tangent actually will all come together, I think, with this last phrase. Lust cracks the brain.
- [65:02]
Joseph Goldstein
So the story behind that phrase is I was sitting in a retreat with my Burmese teacher, Sayada Upandita, who, as I've mentioned different times, great meditation master and very. He was like a fierce Zen master. You know, he's very demanding teacher and also a very caring one. You know, he really wanted us to understand things. So one time he was giving a dharma talk in Burmese. It was a translator. And he was going on and on, maybe for 10 minutes, talking Burmese. Then the translator translated everything he said in these four words. Lust cracks the brain, which I thought was just a brilliant translation. I don't know what was said in Burmese, but I think we all know this because when our minds are filled with lust, we go crazy. First to remember how obsessed the mind can become. It just is such a powerful energy in the body, in the mind. It's powerful, powerful force. And it can lead us to do so many things as we could open any newspaper any day and see the harmful results of lust cracking the brain, where people just crimes of passion and all the forms that could take. We just can easily start doing really harmful things. How many relationships have broken up because lust cracking the brain of one partner or another and then going off and doing things that are so damaging to the relationship? There are just a million examples of this. So the point of the phrase and the power of it is to remind us. Because these feelings, the feelings of lust are certainly going to come up in the course of a lifetime. Happily. I can say that as one gets older, it gets less. So that's the good news about aging. But. But there's certainly times I remember it's an energy that's coming to us all. So this phrase is just a reminder when this arises, pay attention. Really try to become mindful of it and not be caught in the obsession of it. And to really watch our actions when this energy is very strong and present. So it doesn't mean never acting on, for example, sexual desire, which is just part of the human condition. But is it within bounds, within the bounds of morality, of ethics, of non harming or not? Has that desire cracked our brain enough that we don't care about those boundaries anymore? So it's just a reminder to take care of because it is such a powerful energy and we want to acknowledge that.
- [68:23]
Dan Harris
And in this case, was lust only about sexual desire or just strong greed or desire for anything?
- [68:31]
Joseph Goldstein
I don't know what he said in Burmese, so we could certainly apply it to anything. But I think it's most vivid in sexual desire. We're all familiar with that becoming at times a really powerful force. But people have lust for a lot of different things. Big lust for food.
- [68:53]
Dan Harris
Yeah.
- [68:54]
Joseph Goldstein
Power. Power. Yeah.
- [68:55]
Dan Harris
Fame, money.
- [68:57]
Joseph Goldstein
Yeah. All of those things. So I think it applies across the board.
- [69:02]
Dan Harris
We've just had a great conversation about what you might call desire, lust, greed, wanting within a Buddhist framework and how to work with these energies more skillfully. Just before we close here, any closing thoughts from you?
- [69:17]
Joseph Goldstein
I just want to add something to one of the topics we touched just before when we were talking about wise remorse. And so I just like to highlight the difference between guilt and remorse because as I said, we all do things at different times that have been unskillful, you know, and of course suffering that we feel guilty about. So I had this experience once again on retreat and I was remembering something and now I don't even remember what it was about, but I remember having just real attacks of guilt for having done whatever it was. And guilt is, it's a terrible feeling. It's a self lacerating feeling with a huge amount of self judgment. So I was experiencing that and at a certain point I just got interested. What is going on here? Why am I so hooked by this feeling or what's sustaining it? I was just trying to understand and then at a certain point, I realized that guilt was a trick of the ego. Because in guilt there is a lot of selfing in a negative way. I'm so bad, I'm this terrible person. How could I have done this? I, I, I, I. All negative. So when I saw that, when I reframe guilt as a trick of the ego, then in my mind I used this other phrase which we've talked about in earlier episodes. Mara, I see you. Yeah. And that, I think I had mentioned this, I added to it wagging the finger at Mara. So I did that with the guilt. That's where that first came. Oh, Mara, I see you. And then I realized there was a better alternative to guilt because guilt was an unskillful response to something that we actually did. And that's what generally fuels it because it's not free floating guilt, although there are conditions like that as well. But when it's in response to an actual action, we justify the guilt to ourselves because, oh yeah, really did do something. Not that great. But when I started the trick of the ego, I realized a much more helpful mind state is something I called wise remorse. And that involves the acknowledgment. Yeah, that action was not good. Caused suffering, caused harm. So we're taking responsibility for our actions. But without that added self laceration, we just see and we learn from it, as I said a little earlier, maybe make amends for what we did if we can. But in that wise remorse, there's kind of a built in understanding or wisdom of impermanence. You know, that all these things arise and pass away. And there's also in some subtle way an element of self forgiveness in that feeling of wise remorse. We're no longer caught in that ego trap of I'm so bad or I'm such a bad person. So it's very freeing.
- [72:54]
Dan Harris
Yeah. Oddly, there's less self and self forgiveness than there is in self laceration. And by the way, more room in the forgiveness part to make amends and think about the other people you may have harmed as opposed to being stuck in your story.
- [73:09]
Joseph Goldstein
Yeah, yeah, I think that was a very useful discernment. That really helped me a lot.
- [73:16]
Dan Harris
Yeah, it's helped me. Well, this is great. Thank you.
- [73:20]
Joseph Goldstein
You're welcome.
- [73:27]
Dan Harris
Thanks again to Joseph, Always awesome to talk to him. Don't forget to check out my meditation app over@danharris.com Joseph guides lots of meditations over there, including an on ramp to boost Buddhist meditation. An excellent series of meditations designed to like ease into the deep end of Buddhist meditation practice and you can do these practices whether you're a rank amateur or an experienced practitioner. If you head on over to danharris.com, you can sign up for the app. There's a free 14 day trial if you want to try before you buy. And of course, if you sign up, you'll be included in Sharon Salzberg's eight part Sunday evening video extravaganza where she's going to walk us through the Eightfold path. Lots of good stuff happening on the app. Danharris.com join the party thank you very much to all the people who work so incredibly hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our Managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our Senior producer, DJ Kashmir is our excellent Executive producer, and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.
- [74:43]
Joseph Goldstein
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match Limited by state law not available in all states.