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- [00:00]
A
You know, how do you create value? What is finance? How do you create value with trading and markets? There's someone who wants to be risk averse with an asset that they have. They're willing to give edge to secure the bag. That's always the case. So there's always money to be made by founders who are like shareholders that have all their money in the company they founded. They want to sell it, they want to IPO it. And there's this like, meat on the bone for everybody to either is the banker is going to make money, it's the guy who's going to buy it. And why are they giving up all this money? It's just because, like, at the end of the day, like, you're always exchanging risk for like, expected value. And all the investors, whether in credit, doing equities, doesn't matter what you're doing, you are in essence going to make money if you consistently find someone that wants to reduce risk and will give, like, give ev for that. So if you understand that that's really like the primitive of the game, then you start finding all the ways that that kind of materializes.
- [00:57]
B
Today we are interviewing Jordy, who is the founder of Cellini, one of the sharpest minds in the space. I've known Jordy for a long time. We've been in a ton of trades together, and he always has interesting things to say. And most importantly, we're filming this at his conference, the Cellini Summit. Okay, you know what this is, this is phenomenal. We are actually in Cannes right now at the Cellini Summit, which is an amazing conference that Cellini Jordi puts on every year. And it is just in the most beautiful setting. We're currently in the Carlton Hotel. Thank you for joining me and thank you for hosting the summit.
- [01:43]
A
Yeah. You know, as proper vampires, even though it's nice and sunny outside, we're all inside, so it's okay.
- [01:48]
B
We are quite literally in a dark room. The only, like, it might seem like it's light, but that's just because we have light. All this professional lighting around us. Yeah, we were neets at the end of the day. So, like, why go outside?
- [01:59]
A
No, we'll go later. We'll go later.
- [02:01]
B
We'll go. We got some fun stuff planned, right?
- [02:03]
A
Yeah. What. What's been, like, the most crazy thing you've heard today?
- [02:06]
B
I don't know. Like, I actually think maybe the most fun thing that I've heard is we interviewed Alex. Good.
- [02:11]
A
Yeah.
- [02:11]
B
And he was talking about his time over at Paler, and he basically Gave us the blueprint for how Paler found Osama bin Laden, which is kind of fun. And I think that was pretty cool. Has absolutely nothing to do with markets. In fact, he actually transitioned into saying that Palantir is probably a short at these prices. But, like, I don't know, Jordy, I mean, what, what have you found most fun or interesting from the talks, from the people, from what's going on at this conference, anything that struck you as different?
- [02:42]
A
You know, the quality of the people left in this space has gone up because there's just such a washout happening. Of all the lower tier people, I think they can't even get funded now. So that's the most positive thing. It's just there's a big filter, the Great Filter is, is underway. And I think that's what's really going to create a foundation. Because the reality is over the last years, it's just been one kind of terrible idea after another with bad founders and bad ethics. And I think now the only things that are getting funded because the only people who have money left are the ones that are like very disciplined about it and they're only going to fund stuff that, you know, at least makes sense or the founder is giving it a proper try. Clearly there are some good things. I saw Prime Intellect, one of our portos, announced like a 300 million raise or something.
- [03:33]
B
What is Prime Intellect?
- [03:34]
A
They're doing crypto AI. So it's like, you know, this category that is.
- [03:38]
B
How did that not come up on like crypto? I mean, like, what, what is. What, what the hell is crypto AI anyway? I mean, it's like the two biggest.
- [03:44]
A
It could be anything, right? It could be anything of, like, that uses both technologies. It doesn't, it doesn't need to be constrained within. I mean, your panel, you were moderating crypto AI panel and one of the questions was like, what's going to take to get a top 10 market cap Coke? And people are saying, like, you know, they, they can definitely get in the top 10 or maybe even, you know, be something like bigger than Bitcoin as well, because it has real usage, if it's done well. But yeah, we're, we're still kind of figuring out what is like a crypto AI scam and what is potentially going to be promising.
- [04:21]
B
It's funny, I asked the people in the panel that I was moderating, is anyone willing to stand up for any crypto AI project? So, like VV like V existing, right, Tao and basically everybody dweered and they were like, I don't know, I'm, I'm very bullish on, I'm very bullish on AI and I'm very bullish on crypto. And then they, it was kind of hard to get people to join the two. I actually think.
- [04:43]
A
Yeah, you know, grass has been a very interesting one. We've been seeing the reaction to the investor call where they said, you know, we were making like 50 million cash and the token sold off like a third. Like what kind of, you know, shitcoin goes down by a third in a single day on good news? And it kind of shows that the liquidity in crypto for altcoins is bad. And you know, we've talked to the founder a bunch. Andre says, you know, in many ways if he were an equity play he would be valued, you know, at some very high multiple. And in crypto it's, you know, imagine trading at like a 380FTV and you know, your kind of growth rate and you're on track for massive numbers. This doesn't make any sense. And I think a lot of the reason is retail has been so rinsed from like the structure of the tokens where binance kind of forces everyone to be locked for a year. They want to get their float and then after a year there's just like, you know, bunch of VCs that are down bad. They have to sell whatever's, you know, doing okay, whatever liquidity they can get. And then just like retails, tokens inevitably just go get dragged down. And retail has just kind of gotten tired of it. Like the retail don't have any money.
- [06:01]
B
Retail is kind of like gone in, in a way they are gone. You, you run, you run a market making firm.
- [06:05]
A
Yeah.
- [06:06]
B
Anyway, so you would be able to see the flows.
- [06:08]
A
Yeah.
- [06:08]
B
But I assume that they're down like retail flows.
- [06:10]
A
Massive ticket flows are down massively massive.
- [06:12]
B
They've all gone presumably to equities or they've zeroed out of their sports betting or they're on polling market.
- [06:17]
A
I mean I think it's all of the above. I mean this is a diffusion between spinning. Like you know, the ones that want to just take concentrated bets on a specific name, you know, there's those kind of people, they want to bet on a, this name, that name. Okay. Like those are going to like the, I'm going to do micron sandisk. Like they've, they've moved on to other things. Now thankfully we're capturing some of that, you know, perp flow potentially.
- [06:38]
B
Are you doing this now? Is cellini trading equities.
- [06:41]
A
We are trading the crypto version of equities and hedging it, you know, with some of the tradfi side. But we're trading on, you know, it's not just by hyper liquid. I mean you have Binance, OkX, there's like large amounts of liquidity, lighter even Bitget. Now like a lot of the exchanges are kind of getting into these assets and liquidity is not bad.
- [06:58]
B
So Cellini is exiting crypto?
- [07:00]
A
No, we're creating the crypto rail sim as always. But if they're adding assets that are trading, you know, SpaceX was trading 2 billion a day on Binance. 2 billion. I mean that's not small. We can make some money on that, you know, on those like spread spreads, the flows, everything. So I was never an equity guy. I was more of a string fix, like fixed income, commodities effects and this like single name thing is kind of new to me. But getting into it, yeah, because like that's where the game is, is being played. And honestly there's alpha there. It's not that hard to find alpha in SpaceX or something. You know, you, it's the same things we learned in crypto. We, we learned, we learned the playbook first. There's like, you got to think about the whole thing. There's the KOLs. They got the KOLs. They're like, you know, in this case Elon and whatever people on CNBC. There's all these KOLs and they're like bullshitting some story. Okay. They affect the retail. We've seen that, we've seen the unlocks. Like SpaceX is going to go through a ridiculous amount of unlocks just August and then the next one, the next tranche, the earnings call two weeks later. We're tracking all this stuff. We know how this plays out. We've seen this like in crypto, there's
- [08:10]
B
actually one extra part there which is that the Binance launchpad equivalent is getting an allocation to the IPO through Goldman or through one of these other investment banks. And then the, everyone is just able to flip it now because they're, they're pricing these things pretty low. Yeah, it's kind of, it's kind of nuts.
- [08:24]
A
Yeah.
- [08:25]
B
And it really does. I mean we always would joke about the fact that crypto is going to become more like tradfi. And it has. Then tradfi has become like crypto and that.
- [08:32]
A
Right.
- [08:33]
B
It almost seems like you guys should be in there cleaning up. I mean, as an individual trader, that's all I'm Thinking about now, I'm thinking in terms of, I mean, trading's almost, almost gotten easier in equities, in a sense, for people that are willing to chase narratives and willing to put up volume on it. Because you kind of. The way that we did it in crypto is you just park your capital in things that you think are going to catch a bid because you know that attention is going to go there at some point in the future.
- [08:55]
A
Right.
- [08:56]
B
And you're not really sure when. You don't actually know exactly. One month, two months?
- [09:01]
A
Yeah. Even like for the most sophisticated of us, we never predict like, oh, this is the day that it's going to happen.
- [09:07]
B
It's just like over the next, over the next one month, there's a 75% probability that this particular sector catches a bid because there's a hot ball of money running around. And that's kind of what's happening, I think, a little bit now in equities. Although the hot ball of money is basically just in all these, you know, AI stocks and so some, some, some downstream stuff. But I'm curious, like, are you seeing, like, what, what are you seeing in terms of flow in the crypto markets? Because people are talking about right now, hey, maybe we're AI is down a little bit over the last few days. Maybe there's going to be a rotation where people are going to cash out of AI trades, put it into crypto. You seeing any of that?
- [09:50]
A
Well, it's going to take it. You know, that has to play out slowly. First you need to people to exit the liquidity that they have, exit their SpaceX at to exit their, like, you know, memory stocks that are up infinite. All the Koreans that are, you know, trading costy and up so much, they need to exit. They're not going to immediately put it in crypto, but as things sort of pick up momentum, it's a momentum game. With crypto, it's always been momentum up and momentum down. We have no momentum right now. It's all sideways. We've kind of bottomed. I think, like, it's sort of making this choppy bottom. We really like will have a very sudden move up. We just don't know when, when it is. But it'll all happen for no reason. It'll be like, What? We're up 5, 10% today. And then the next day it's like, why are we up 10% again? Well, because yesterday we're up 10%. So now, like, you know, people are sort of piling in. We'll get this like reflexive effect where people start believing again that they can do well, they can make money. Sadly, you know, investors are still just chasing fomo. It's still, it's still going to be the same thing. I don't know when that's going to change. It's either that or like, just like stupid passive flows that are just piling into automatic strategies. And I think SpaceX might be the first time that that gets exploited to such a degree where, you know, the NASDAQ is about to pile in a bunch of money into a stock that just got listed on low float. And it's not S P 500, which is, I think, 13, 14 times bigger than NASDAQ, but it is like, you know, a decent amount of money that's just going to go from NASDAQ holders into a single stock. These passive flows are always going to be the ones that in the end, hold the bag. And these automatic flows are so easily to kind of predict. I don't know if you saw the story with Millennium made.
- [11:37]
B
Yeah, it was millennial millennium. 3.7 billion. 7 billion on index rebalancing.
- [11:42]
A
Yeah.
- [11:43]
B
What does that even mean?
- [11:44]
A
Well, like, I mean, I'm sure these guys are smart that are doing it, but are they that smart that nobody else can figure out how to do an index rebalance? Like, I don't think so. I think having a large amount of capital and just sort of having attention on this specific kind of mechanical thing where you just have dumb money flows moving and you just sort of front run them. It's like, you know, obviously in crypto sometimes we have Michael Saylor be the dumb money. Like he's in essence like the, the NASDAQ that just sort of like passively puts money in. And we saw how many funds in crypto were trying to buy before him and sell after him. And, you know, when he stopped buying, everybody had to kind of exit that and we had a bit of a dip there. But I think that's, that's all these guys are doing. They're just tracking the mechanics of how these things work and just piling a ton of money in.
- [12:32]
B
Well, think this is why it's so good to be a retail trader right now, and actually very good to be nimble and small, because I view it. I view the bear, the bear market, the scary bear market, as the. A literal bear that's chasing you and chasing everybody else. And you actually don't have to be the fastest person on the pitch. You just have to be faster than the slowest person.
- [12:51]
A
Yeah.
- [12:51]
B
And the slowest person are all of, the slowest people are all of the pension funds, the passive capital, the index funds that are flowing into this and you kind of just have to outrun them.
- [13:01]
A
Yeah.
- [13:01]
B
Once the quote unquote bubble pops and you'll probably be okay. Now the hard part, nobody has any idea when the quote unquote bubble is going to pop. Right. And so you sell, you sell intel at 110 yesterday, you wake up today it's at 1:17. You're like, am I doing, why do I sell?
- [13:18]
A
Yeah.
- [13:18]
B
And that's I think the tough part that people are trying to navigate right now. I don't know if you have any heuristics for, I mean our heuristics are
- [13:26]
A
always like, you know, we're not, we're not going to make the most return on any specific trade or any specific, you know, month or even year. But we always keep good amount of cash, we keep a good amount of beta that we think is smart and just compound, you know, compound over time they, they really try to kill you. In crypto in many times like, you know, you have like liquidation events and
- [13:53]
B
was that a good day for you? Was October 10th a good day for you?
- [13:55]
A
No, it could have been. Some of our teams did spectacularly well. Some of like the, you know, arbitrage teams and stuff like that. But some of our trades were like a bit undercapitalized because we try to run, we want to make a return on capital. So let's say if we run like one to one, like fully collateralized on some trades, it only makes like 15, 10, 10, 15% annual return. Right. Like doing like a lot of these like trade spread, making like a little bit of spread. Maybe if we run it 3 to 4x leverage, we make 60%. So we were running 3 to 4 leverage. Some accounts just, you couldn't rebalance them fast enough. You end up one sided, get liquidated. So I think we ended up losing single digit millions which is, you know, not, not a huge day for us, good or bad. But it's always, you know, a capital like how much leverage do you want on your capital? For us, this decision, like it's, it's less safe if you, if you kind of push it a little bit, get, get higher return. So it was a mixed day. It could have been a very good day if we had everything dialed in properly. But those are the things that happen once every three, four years.
- [15:10]
B
Right.
- [15:11]
A
And you're not, your systems are not like fully, you know, your back test is not going to catch this because it's not, it's not happened before. You know, I've had this level of liquidation. But it was funny, like hearing all the, you know, I woke up and I had like 50 Telegram messages of people asking like, are you guys okay? Are you guys okay? Are you guys okay? I'm like, what happened? And people just assumed that some firm like either Wintermute or Selenium, like, you know, one of these big firms would have gone bust or something like that was the only explanation.
- [15:41]
B
By the way, that's everyone's favorite thing to do all the time. The amount of times that Wintermute has died is I think more than 20. Yeah, they've, they've died a lot.
- [15:50]
A
Died a lot. Yeah, we've died maybe I guess two or three times.
- [15:52]
B
Yeah, you have a lot, you have a lot more depth to go catch up. Like any. Anytime the market goes down, I need all the listeners to tag Jordy on Twitter. Yeah. And say, are you alive?
- [16:01]
A
Yes.
- [16:02]
B
Just like, let's, let's, let's meme that into existence.
- [16:04]
A
I need more of that. Haven't had enough of that. Yeah, it's good.
- [16:07]
B
Do you, do you. Have you permanently shifted the amount of leverage that you use now post October?
- [16:12]
A
I mean, I would say yes. And also in some cases you try to just, instead of segregating everything into like sub accounts, you try to just have, you know, more unified liquidity. Exchanges are making it a little bit easier with portfolio margin. I think 10:10 did show that if you're using coins for margin, even if they are like USDE or whatever, wrapped soul or whatever, all those stuff, that kind of depech temporarily, they will liquidate you and it is pretty aggressive. So we don't really use non dollar like you know, just coins as collateral. That just seems like a recipe for, for disaster. Maybe bitcoin you can use like for to a certain extent for collateral. But I would say like we haven't reduced leverage. We've gone smarter on how we do it and just a little more conservative on it.
- [17:04]
B
So just no, no more coin. It's not like the FTX days when you could use bitmaxes.
- [17:09]
A
Yeah.
- [17:09]
B
Collateral for.
- [17:10]
A
You can, but you shouldn't because it'll suddenly mark it down. Liquidate your whole sub account.
- [17:16]
B
It's amazing. I think crypto also taught us a lot of how to take advantage of market like market microstructure.
- [17:23]
A
Yeah.
- [17:23]
B
Because there's a lot of that in crypto and I just don't think there were enough people taking Advantage of it. And one thing, I've kind of been out of that game for a little bit, but I'm. One thing that I was thinking about the other day is, is it, does that inefficiency still exist in crypto? Are there things that you take advantage of on a day to day basis?
- [17:41]
A
There are.
- [17:42]
B
Or has that really just like have the Jane Streets come in, have the.
- [17:44]
A
No, no, no, no, no. And I think even things like perpetuals that are becoming very popular and it is a good UX as a user you don't have to like, you know, you trade futures and you have to roll them every three months and figure out how to get the spread and the base perpetuals. It's very amazing. Ux, you just put it on and leave it. Right. But you are like dealing with this funding rate and you never know what the funding rate is going to be. The next day could be anything. You can't predict it. And that's like the big disadvantage compared to like calendar future because the calendar future is just going to expire a specific day. You don't have to worry about any of the funding until that day arrives. You really just focus on the expiry date. And there are shenanigans happening around the expiry, but that's it. Now with perpetuals it's just this constant like you know, guessing on what the funding is going to be. And so there's a formula. Well, you don't know what the basis is going to be between the spot and the per tomorrow. You just know where it is. Right now the formula just tells you the next window, not the one after that. So there are things like this that, you know, the Jane Streets and stuff have no idea. Like I don't think they, this is our world, you know, they're in our land. And as perpetuals get bigger and OI on perpetuals includes, you know, SpaceX and, and all these other trades, I think we understand it much better than these guys and we'll continue to have edge on this kind of microstructure stuff.
- [19:13]
B
Well, that's gonna be great for you as a company then.
- [19:15]
A
Yes.
- [19:15]
B
I mean if, if that market expands massively, then presumably your ability to make money also expands massively.
- [19:21]
A
Yeah, and, and I think, you know, if it trades 24 7, trades 247 and there's these like huge overlaps now where like, you know, the SpaceX market is so big, it's much bigger than you know, Ethereum market or, or whatever. If you start finding like opportunities to buy like Locked shares. But then you kind of know how to hedge the like there, there's a bunch of like interesting structural things that you can do it.
- [19:48]
B
No, no, no, I keep going.
- [19:49]
A
No, no, I don't.
- [19:50]
B
Don't stop, don't stop there.
- [19:52]
A
Yeah.
- [19:52]
B
What do you do? You buy LOCK shares.
- [19:54]
A
So in essence if you buy LOCK shares, you know, how do you create value? What is finance? How do you create value with trading in markets? It's always like there's someone who wants to be risk averse with an asset that they have. They're willing to give edge to secure the bag. That's always the case. So there's always money to be made by you know, founders who are like shareholders that have all their money in the company they founded, they want to sell it, they want to IPO it and there's just like meat on the bone for everybody to eat. There is the banker is going to make money. It's the guy who's going to buy it. And why are they giving up all this money? It's just because like at the end of the day like they're de risking out of, they're willing to give ev, like give you like an expected value that's positive because the utility is not just the ev, it's also like the risk. So they're, they're taking risk off. You're always exchanging risk for like expected value. And all the investors whether doing credit, doing equities, doesn't matter what you're doing. You are in essence going to make money if you consistently find someone that wants to reduce risk and will give like give ev for that. So if you understand that that's, that's really like the primitive of the game, then you start finding all the ways that that kind of materializes. And you know, you can do that with crypto, you can do that with equities. You can do the combination of the two. At the end of the day like anytime there's unlocks happening, anytime, you know, there's like something structural there, you know, you can structure something. So obviously we do a lot of that. We provide tight liquidity where we just make a tiny bit of shredded. As a company, we make a lot of money by working with exchanges that need liquidity. They'll sometimes pay us a monthly retainer to like make sure that their books are liquid. And you know, we don't just make the money and keep it. We have to spend a lot of money on infrastructure. We have to get the, you know, the fastest feeds, microwave feeds from New York and send it to Japan. You know, where the AWS data centers are. There's a bunch of costs. I mean we spend tens of millions of dollars just on like infrastructure and networking. Like our networking bill is massive. Then you have to pay all the smart traders to sit around and do the algorithm. So it's a very, it's a very like high intensive business. And obviously like you said, the Jane streets of these guys, they step in into more of like the huge games, like the etf, like level games. And we'll try to like, you know,
- [22:25]
B
dabble, shave off a few points.
- [22:26]
A
I'll shave a few points. Yeah.
- [22:28]
B
Okay, that's, I mean it's, I think you, I, I want to repeat this because it was so beautifully put. It's that you trade, you know, people are willing to let go of Edge because the utility to them of whatever capital they have is reasonably high.
- [22:42]
A
Yeah.
- [22:42]
B
And that's actually probably a big opportunity for people that got very wealthy in OpenAI for people that got very wealthy in anthropic SpaceX. But I go back to crypto and it's like that was kind of the whole market in many ways, guys.
- [22:54]
A
So crypto you have, you have, you have. It's funny because you have both sides. You have a lot of people are up thousand x on bitcoin, eth, whatever, like their bags and you know at some point they want to distribute so you can still find value if, if like they're distributing. And then it's the funny in crypto and in general in speculation and gambling you have the opposite. Where the EV people will give is not to drisk but to pro risk. Like they just want that thousand X and they're willing to pay edge to have the variance. They want the variance. Right.
- [23:25]
B
That's when you point to the camera and you go, you hear that Thousand X. Yeah.
- [23:30]
A
Like the, the more successful products in crypto have been the ones that are just given people the, the chance to get that extra variance. And it's like the lottery, you know, the lottery's been very successful for, I don't know, hundreds of years. Right. Which just gives people the chance to change their life and they'll exchange it for like some edge. And we have a lot of that as well.
- [23:54]
B
I mean, and that edge is entertainment and that's kind of our whole industry in many ways. Not to repeat myself with the crypto thing, but it strikes me because I'm, I go to Yankees games a lot. I'm a big baseball fan. And one of the things that they do there is. They hold this thing called the 5050 raffle, which is maybe the worst ev thing that I've ever seen in my entire life. The way that it works is you buy a ticket, 50% of that ticket gets donated to charity, and then 50% of that ticket gets distributed to one person that bought a ticket. It's like you're like actively making like, it's like the worst lottery that's ever existed on the history of the planet.
- [24:26]
A
Terrible.
- [24:26]
B
But because you're literally immediately losing half of the value. Right. I mean, it's just like, it doesn't make any sense, but it is played. I mean, people like, it sometimes gets up to $250,000, you know, $500,000 in a stadium of 50,000 people. You're like, well, why are they doing this? And it's because it's fun.
- [24:43]
A
Yeah.
- [24:44]
B
And that's actually why you see Robin Hood make trading fun. That's why you see all these game. That's why you see the gamification of finance is because the more you make it, the more you introduce dopamine into trading, the more edge that you can actually extract from your average person.
- [24:57]
A
Right.
- [24:58]
B
And that's something that I think we actually like, I'm trying to warn against a little bit, which is why I say one of the things that I always say on the show is do not trade from your phone. Like, just don't get it.
- [25:09]
A
Yeah.
- [25:10]
B
It, it actually activates neurons in your brain that you're like a monkey. You're like, I want to see the flashing lights. Trade from your computer if you're going to trade. But that it's, it's something that I think about a lot and also it's kind of inevitable. Like we're just.
- [25:23]
A
A lot of these things are inevitable.
- [25:24]
B
You might, you might as well take the other side.
- [25:26]
A
Yeah.
- [25:26]
B
Like if it's inevitable, you take the other side.
- [25:30]
A
I warn against, you know, gambling. I've spent more hours than I think most people in casinos in my life. I was a professional poker player. Spent a lot of time even playing blackjack semi professionally and sports betting as well. I really understand, like the psychology of the, the dopamine rushes. I've had, you know, friends that have just gone crazy and started, you know, martingaling the, the out of their bankrolls. And I.
- [25:56]
B
Foolproof strategy of infinite funds.
- [25:58]
A
Yeah. It almost never, almost never fails. But on the other hand, like, you can't stop people from being monkeys. And at some point you just got to understand the microstructure and take advantage of it. I mean, I, I, I was doing some World cup betting the other day, went to edge. No, no, this is, Well, I could, I certainly could, but I don't spend any time on it. So it's, and I understand that this is for entertainment. If I'm going to watch a game, I just want to like, you know, hope for a specific outcome. If it's Colombia, Switzerland, you know, love those countries, but I don't really have a horse in that race. If I bet on Switzerland to win in penalties, then I'll certainly like, you know, care a lot more. That's just for entertainment. But the trader in me can't switch off. So I got a call sheet and I want to bet. And I realize first of all they are directing you towards market orders. They fucking want you to market order. They don't want you to place a passive bid and try to. So if you want to find the way to trade passively and just put like a, you know, let's say it's like between 13 and 15 cents. If you want to place a 14 cent, you gotta like do some extra clicks and find it. How did, like how to do the 14th cent? If you just say, okay, I want this to happen. Of course, intentional, they are segmenting their customers in a way to get like the, the least price sensitive gamblers to just rip into the book because that's what immediately like makes fees and they can charge the most. And they realize you're not a professional if you're just like ripping it in without even checking the liquidity. And they're, they're getting very smart on this. Like, you know, they're forcing the, the people like me that want to get 14 cents instead of 15 cents to figure out how to do it. It's not that simple. Like you gotta really find it.
- [27:44]
B
Yeah. I mean this kind of reminds me of the Coinbase pro versus just regular coinbase. Yeah, it's, it's the same, it's the same concept. It's like, let's fleece the people that don't care.
- [27:51]
A
Yeah, right.
- [27:52]
B
And that's my advice to you and anybody watching the podcast is just like make sure that you're not the person getting fleeced because somebody out there is. And the best thing that you can do for yourself is just to double check that.
- [28:04]
A
Yeah.
- [28:04]
B
Think to yourself like I'm, I mean,
- [28:05]
A
think about like how much edge you're losing on fees on any trade or like on spread. Just kind of having this have a sense because it compounds you might have the right idea, but like, every time that you're, you're doing it, if you're losing 2%, I mean, it, it adds up.
- [28:20]
B
I think it's just hard for. It's actually hard for people to conceptualize this.
- [28:24]
A
That.
- [28:24]
B
Because I think the fees of each individual trade, they're so low.
- [28:27]
A
Yeah.
- [28:28]
B
That they don't factor into your decision analysis. But over time, obviously, that really, really, really stacks up.
- [28:33]
A
And I mean, that's what people like around me have told me for a long time now that only once they spoke to me and really thought about it because, you know, when they're meme coin trading, they're going for the 100x thousandx, they don't think about, oh, am I paying 5, 10%? Like, they think, whatever, 5% on this thing, it doesn't matter. But you're not always going to be right. And if you know that 5% takes you from being profitable to unprofitable, it just changes your entire trajectory.
- [28:58]
B
Right. And that's why there was so much edge back in the day as well. Because I remember back, you know, 2021, people are posting, oh, this is how much money I spent on gas on Ethereum. And it's just actually outrageous. Yeah, it's. I mean, it's tens of thousands of dollars, sometimes 50. A hundred thousand dollars of gas spent to make $400,000 of profit that you end up giving back two years later. Anyway.
- [29:20]
A
Yeah.
- [29:20]
B
So it's like, you know, that stuff actually really matters. And transaction fees, well, I'm not going to on them too much because they sort of pay a lot of people's goals.
- [29:28]
A
Yeah.
- [29:28]
B
But it is something to watch out for.
- [29:30]
A
Yeah.
- [29:31]
B
Anyway, dude, this was, this was fun.
- [29:33]
A
Good.
- [29:34]
B
As, as always, this is a great time. I don't know if there's a pitch here to use Cellini, but if you are trading size, go talk to Jordy.
- [29:42]
A
Yes. Come for us for size.
- [29:43]
B
And remember to like and subscribe.
- [29:46]
A
Cheers.
- [29:46]
B
All right. Cheers. Jordy, that was awesome.
- [29:54]
C
Foreign. Nothing said on the Thousand X podcast is a recommendation to buy or sell any investments or products. This podcast is for informational purposes only and the views expressed by anyone on the show are solely their opinions, not financial advice or necessarily the views of one KX Media. Our hosts, guests, and the one KX team may hold positions in the company's funds or projects discussed.