Maggie Adairin (2:50)

Two crews Two different spacecraft and just shooting the breeze. Perfect. And as ever, we're joined by space journalist Kristen Fisher. Hello, Kristin.

Kristen Fisher (3:01)

Hi, Maggie. Hi, Tim. What a moment that was. And to me, out of everything in this mission, that moment really symbolized where human space exploration is in 2026. The fact that you could have a crew flying farther into space than any humans have ever flown around the moon, talking to their friends, their colleagues on the International Space Station, which has been, you know, permanently occupied by humans for, you know, gosh, what, 25 years. Tim, you were there, I mean, to have these two different spacecrafts, one the iss, really sort of laying the groundwork for what the Artemis 2 crew is ultimately trying to do, be the very beginning for a sustained human presence on the surface of the moon. That moment just, to me, really captured all the possibility of what we're gonna get to see unfold over the next few years.

Maggie Adairin (4:01)

Yeah, to me it did feel like the future. This is the sort of thing we're going to be doing regular Melanie. It's quite interesting because the International Space Station is coming towards the end of its life and this is sort of a new sort of space faring sort of coming in. So, yeah, sort of an interesting moment in time.

Tim Peake (4:18)

It felt very special. And also what was interesting is in all these conversations we purr between Capcom and Integrity. There's an air of professionalism about it. Of course, they're a little bit held back and making sure you say the right thing over the, over the communication system. The world is listening. When they were talking to their friends on the space station, there was just this relaxation and you could tell it was just good mates having a chat. And of course they are because Jessica on the International Space Station, she's commanding now. She joined at the same time as Victor and Christina. And so they're all known as the Eight Balls. That's their, that's their NASA class name. And Reed and Jeremy, actually I joined at the same time as Reid and Jeremy and Reed just said, you know, in a minute I'm just going to hand over to Christina and let you Eight Balls just carry on the conversation itself. And it was wonderful. They just had a great old chat. I had the opportunity to speak to them Space station when I was underwater off the coast of Florida. We were spending 12 days living in this Aquarius habitat. And it's really special when you feel in this isolated, remote environment and you get to speak to another spacecraft. So they would have had an amazing time speaking to each other, you know,

Kristen Fisher (5:27)

for so many people. And for perhaps so many of our listeners, this is maybe their first chance at getting an opportunity to hear what these conversations are like, not just between the crew of the iss and Artemis II, but also between Artemis 2 and the ground mission control. And what a lesson in communication and professionalism. I mean, it's been a masterclass in how you talk through potential issues when they pop up, but also just keeping things very clear to understand. I have just found it to be such a joy listening to how they're communicating between CAPCOM and crew.

Tim Peake (6:05)

And of course, as well as speaking to their fellow crewmates on the International Space Station, they were also doing other work today. And one of those was the RTC burn. Now that's the return trajectory correction burn, number one out of possible three that are planned. So Kristin, how did that go?

Kristen Fisher (6:22)

By all accounts, it went very well.

Integrity Crew Member (6:24)

Okay, we copy or still go and we'll go up here. Integrity, tank pressures are good for the burn.

Jackie Mahaffy (6:34)

Standing by for the RTC1 burn. We have ignition and four good engines and good control.

Integrity Crew Member (6:45)

Integrity. Preliminary look is a good burn, still assessing. 40 seconds to Los okay, Stan, we saw a good burn on board as well.

Kristen Fisher (6:58)

You know, I mean, we talk about these burns and a lot of times they're needed, sometimes they aren't. We saw two burns on the way to the moon were not needed. This one just really to make some final corrections to make sure that Orion is on the perfect path before the next critical milestone in this mission. And you know, Tim and Maggie, this is probably the one that I think a lot of us who have been following this mission for some time have had the most nerves about reentry into the Earth's atmosphere. Orion being subjected to extremely high temperatures. And of course, that heat shield on the Orion spacecraft that we have been talking about so much is really going to be put to the tip. And so have all the changes in the way that Orion is going to enter the Earth's atmosphere. A steeper approach, is that going to be good enough? And you know, Lockheed Martin, NASA, they all say it is. But we're about to be on this really critical moment, the final big test for this mission. But first, Tim and Maggie, the astronauts are getting a nice little, a nice day of rest, right?

Maggie Adairin (8:07)

And well deserved, I think.

Tim Peake (8:08)

Yes, absolutely, very well deserved. They worked extremely hard. And also I know they've been checking out their suits again, as you said that Kristen, you know, this re entry coming up, that's what everybody's focused on now. So a few fit checks there just to make sure everything is Absolutely perfect. And I know also the US recovery vessel has set sail already aiming for that return point just off the west coast of California for the early hours of Saturday morning UK time. So we'll be following that closely. So as well as talking to their fellow crewmates on the space station, there are actually three other people in space at the moment that we really should mention, and that's three taikonauts, which are Chinese astronauts on board the Tiangong Space Station. And we keep talking about a space race and alluding to China's progress in their lunar program, but we haven't really talked about it in, in much detail. So today we thought we'd try to outline the slightly differing approaches to a sustained human presence on the moon.

Maggie Adairin (9:11)

So on the one hand we have the Artemis program, and on the other hand we have the Chang' E program. Now, just out of interest, Chang' E is actually the name of the moon goddess in Chinese mythology. So China's of missions to the moon are literally named after a lunar goddess. I love that. Now it encompasses a whole series of missions that started in 2007 with a lunar orbiter, and they're feeding into term plans of the International Lunar Research Station, or ilrs. And I really like the word, the use of international there in the acronym. Now it's almost two contrasting philosophies. NASA's Artemis program is about getting astronauts back to the lunar surface as quickly as possible, then building up infrastructure through international and commercial partnerships where China's approach is a little slower, a bit more quiet, a sort of more methodical, with robotic missions first and then sort of landing humans later. But they both, both have a long term permanent goal to have presence on the Moon.

Tim Peake (10:11)

And of course both of them are targeting the lunar south pole largely because it offers near constant sunlight. And certainly these are areas around the rims of large craters like the Shackleton crater where the sun doesn't set, and potential water ice both at the north pole and at the lunar south pole. And the water ice tends to be inside craters where they're not exposed to the sun. And therefore the cold temperatures have maintained that water in ice form. And this is critical resource. If humans are going to live and work on the Moon for extended periods, then we want this not just for drinking, but as we've spoken about, you can create hydrogen gas, oxygen gas, and that's rocket fuel. And what makes this moment unique is that both programs, they're happening in parallel and driving what many observers are calling a new space race, space 2.0. Not just to plant flags, but to shape the future roles, the partnerships and economic activity beyond Earth.

Kristen Fisher (11:07)

And China's lunar program is really built around something called stepwise capability development. So instead of these big leaps, every mission deliberately prepares the technology needed for the next one. But even so, the progress that China has made recently has been unbelievably fast. When you look at the grand history of human space exploration, even though they're deploying this stepwise capability development, they are still moving blazingly fast. And so this all really began back in 2007 with the first Chang' e orbiter. And by 2013, China had successfully landed a rover on the surface of the moon. And just a few years after that, in 2019, China did something that no other company or country on Earth had ever done before, and that is land successfully on the far side of the moon. After that, Chang' E 5 in 2020 returned lunar samples from the near side of the moon. And then you had Chang' E6 in 2024, which became the first to ever bring samples back from the Moon's far side. These are incredibly technically difficult missions. And the fact that China has been able to do that so successfully really shows you just how advanced their lunar program is. And these weren't just symbolic achievements. You know, it proved that China could land autonomously. It proved that China could take off from the moon, rendezvous in lunar orbit, and then safely return those samples back to Earth.

Maggie Adairin (12:40)

And looking ahead now, in the next year or so, they'll have their next sort of Chang' e missions, sort of Chang' e 7 and Chang' e 8. And these are going to be critical. Chang' e 7 is exploring the south pole, including some of those permanently shadowed craters where ice water may exist. And then we have Chang' E8, which will be testing the technologies using lunar regolith, or the soil on the moon, as a building material. And this is essential for experimenting with the foundations of a lunar construction.

Kristen Fisher (13:10)

Now, unlike NASA, China has not yet landed humans on the moon. Of course, you know, only the United States has been able to do that up until this point. But make no mistake, Chinese taikonauts boots on the moon. That is the goal here. And their Target is around 2030, using a new heavy lift rocket, a new crewed spacecraft, and a dedicated lunar lander.

Tim Peake (13:32)

Yeah, and actually, what's interesting there, Kristen, is when you mentioned the rocket at the moment, they're using the Long March 5B, and that is their heavy lift launcher. But it doesn't have the reusability that, for example, SpaceX and Blue Origin are investigating. So there's a new rocket, the long 3-12-A, which does have a reusable first stage that they're looking at developing, that had a successful test flight last year in terms of getting a spacecraft into orbit, but they didn't manage to successfully land that first stage. So they are perhaps a little bit behind in the kind of reusable heavy lifter rockets. And as we've mentioned already on this podcast, why we're working towards that is because that's what brings the cost of getting to space down. So when you have a fully reusable rocket, you've got a much, much cheaper space program. And all of this is leading towards China's long term goal, which is this international lunar research station. And that's envisaged as this robotic first lunar base operating autonomously for long periods and then humans visiting that intermittently. Christine, as you said there, 2030 is when they hope to start construction and then continuing that on throughout the whole of the next decade and has been actively inviting international partners, particularly nations outside the traditional Western space alliances and of course with Russia. So in short, China, they're not rushing, they're playing a long infrastructure focused game.

Maggie Adairin (15:01)

Now, the long term plans for an Artemis lunar base relies a lot more on commercial partnerships. I think this is where one of the significant differences comes and they're working on the principle of go there and then the commerce will follow. And yet what I do find interesting is that many of we have these two top layer players and then many of the countries are sort of aligning themselves with the Artemis Accords set up by NASA and then the Chinese sort of international lunar research station. And so we're getting this bifurcation of sort of international commitment to these two different mindsets.

Kristen Fisher (15:34)

And for everybody listening, you all have had so many questions about these two sort of competing plans for bases on the moon and this second space race. So we hope that we have answered some of your questions there, but please keep them coming in. You can send them to 13minutesbc.co.uk

Tim Peake (15:57)

now we've all been loving watching and following the cruise progress for the past eight days, but of course they've been preparing for this for years. And today we're absolutely delighted to be joined now by someone who's been absolutely crucial in the cruise preparation, Jackie Mahaffy, chief Training officer for Artemis 2. Welcome to 13 minutes from the BBC World Service.

Jackie Mahaffy (16:17)

Thank you for having me.

Maggie Adairin (16:23)

Thanks, Jackie. Now your role as trainer is to prepare the crew for any event. Now, so far it feels as if it's been relatively plain sailing. But how have they done so far? Because in some ways it feels like the ultimate test for them.

Jackie Mahaffy (16:37)

Yeah, that, that's right. We have trained both every part of this mission from launch through the, the burn to the moon, flying around it, and you know, in just a couple of days, the entry and landing. And so far it's been just an absolute pleasure to watch them apply everything they've learned. You know, some really positive major milestones that have gone really well and then some things to work through as well in terms of being the first people to live on Orion.

Tim Peake (17:08)

And Jackie, you know that preparation is absolutely key. It was certainly key when we were getting ready for the International Space Station. And a big part of that preparation was simulators. And I love simulators because they're kind of a place where it's okay to make mistakes because you're in a safe environment and you often learn that failure is the best teacher. So I'm sure simulation has played a huge part in the preparation of the Artemis to crew. And can you tell us a little bit more about what lengths you go to and how have you managed to create the simulators to do this?

Jackie Mahaffy (17:38)

We have, I would say, kind of two main styles of immersing the crew with Orion. We've got simulators that focus on those displays and controls that you've seen them use that have all of the flight software behind them and that are, you know, talking with mission control as well. So the crew can practice working as a complete team with the team on the ground. Ground. And then we also have our mock up which gives a higher fidelity sense of what the physical space in Orion is. And that has been really fascinating to me to see some of those first video and pictures come back with the crew. And it looks kind of like they're in, you know, my mock up here at Johnson Space center. Except, you know, they're floating and, and it's, it's real. And so that, that was one of the things that made it feel really real for me.

Tim Peake (18:30)

I know what you mean there because when I got on board the space station, it felt like a home from home. It was really quite spooky. You feel like you've been here before because the mockups in Houston are so good. But of course you're floating, Jackie.

Kristen Fisher (18:42)

It's been so obvious to everybody that's been following this mission just how well prepared this crew has been for every milestone that they've reached. And I know so much of that comes down to you and Your team. So well done. My question is about kind of your family history in the program. You know, your grandfather worked on control systems for Apollo. Now you find yourself in this critical role for the Artemis program. And I'm curious, what has changed since Apollo to Artemis in terms of crew training? What's similar?

Jackie Mahaffy (19:18)

What's different? That's a really interesting question. And I will say preparing for how are we going to train the crew on Orion? We actually went back and reviewed after Apollo, that team put together a document called what Made Apollo a Success. And they talked so much about those simulations and in particular the crew working with the flight control teams and working through problems together. And so, you know, in that sense, it hasn't changed much in terms of what kind of training is most effective. And I think just one of the advantages that we have now is that simulation, that package of the flight software and how it's going to respond is so much more modular. We have that in several different facilities, different fidelity areas. And so it's so much more flexible to on the fly, set something up and try something new.

Maggie Adairin (20:14)

You've been talking to the crew as Capcom, and you're scheduled to be on Capcom again for the entry shift when the crew splashed down on Earth. As I say, everything's been going so smoothly so far. How do you feel about that moment?

Jackie Mahaffy (20:27)

Yeah, I. I am very excited. I. I did have to remind my family today, my husband and kids, that, you know, it. It seems like we're reaching the end. But. But for me, this is the most critical part and the part that I have trained the most for. And I will say I had the opportunity to sit next to CAPCOM Stanlove for the launch, and I was pleasantly surprised that I didn't feel as much nerves as I. I had wondered I might. And so for me, that's a really positive sign going into entry that our training has prepared us, our sims have prepared us. We, and certainly the crew will be able to go execute. And then once they're safely back in the hands of our ground systems and Navy partners, then we will celebrate.

Tim Peake (21:17)

That's going to be a very special moment, I'm sure, for you, Jackie. And we'll all be watching, of course, when you're on CAPCOM during that re entry moment. And something I get asked quite a bit is, you know, what surprised you about being in space? Did anything surprise you? And it's very hard to answer that question because our training is so good that very little actually surprises you when you get on board. But has anything surprised you? Has There been anything that you've noticed already during this mission? Obviously you're going to get great debriefing from the crew when they return. But is there anything that you've already seen that's made you think, ah, you know, that's something we need to pick up for Artemis 3 or Artemis 4.

Jackie Mahaffy (21:57)

I think the things that we're learning the most about have to do with the, we call it the habitability of Orion. And we knew that these were the things that we were going to learn the most about because being in zero G really affects them in terms of how do you set up the cabin, where can you put things, how do you secure things and you know, like what was that camera view going to look like that were we going to be able to see the entire interior of the cabin? Will we be able to out figure the four crew members in the same shot and share that with the world? So certainly some of those things have just been a pleasure to see the crew figure them out and they've found some pretty elegant solutions to several of those challenges. And so I'm definitely looking forward for them to bring that wisdom back and share it with the next Artemis crews.

Kristen Fisher (22:47)

Jackie, you said that this upcoming moment, reentry and splashdown is the moment that you personally have trained the most for. Why is that?

Jackie Mahaffy (22:56)

Well, you know, had this pre flight role as the chief Training officer and having some Capcom experience on the ISS side was sort of a symbiotic role for me to have learned so much and developed all of the training that the crew had done and then, you know, essentially repeat it with them as they went through that training. And so I think that has put me in a posture of being really familiar with both the crew and how they operate and then how the Orion works as well. And so that is something that, yeah, I'm just, I'm looking forward to. We've done a lot entry. That launch and entry are definitely the areas where we have spent the most time practicing what happens if something goes wrong or something unexpected pops up. Because those are the timeframes when there is the least time to react and we have to have thought through at least, you know, one level or two deep, what are we going to do in this situation so that if that happens, it's as simple as saying, hey, it's that situation that we practiced. We decided this is what we're going to do and we can quickly and clearly communicate that with the crew.

Maggie Adairin (24:07)

I guess having these procedures in place will be critical, as you say, in these time Sensitive sort of situations. It's going to be very exciting. So I always have a question. So have you started training for future Artemis missions yet?

Jackie Mahaffy (24:20)

We have, have been doing a lot of discussions lately in my office about Preparing for Artemis 3 and 4 coming up, especially with the evolution in the mission definitions. So we do expect as soon as this crew lands, as soon as everyone, you know, maybe, hopefully takes a day or two to take a breather, we are planning to get, get right back into Orion training in particular, because that's the piece that is established now and that we know. And so, so the more quickly we can get folks up to speed on the basics of launching and landing Orion, then we'll have some time before that Artemis III launch to train all the unique things that are going to happen during that mission.

Tim Peake (25:05)

And Jackie, you mentioned there that you know, launch and re entry clearly critical parts of the mission. But this crew of four, they also have to be the electricians, the, the plumbers to fix the loo. They have to be a doctor, if there's a medical problem, even a dentist, perhaps IT experts to repair the computer systems. There's a lot to do and that goes before you've even flown the spacecraft and done any docking procedures. So when we're talking about these future missions, if you get a crew assigned to you, how long does it take to get that crew ready for flight? For an Artemis mission?

Jackie Mahaffy (25:40)

That is a tough question to answer. Yes, because for Artemis 2, everything was still so developmental. And so our goal and what we think we can do for the future, now that we understand which pieces of Orion that we trained this crew on, the Artemis II crew which have been most applicable, which have been most critical, which have turned out to be, like I talked about before time critical. We can zero in on or focus in on those things for the next mission. So our goal is everything related to launching in Orion. Flying in Orion that's not mission specific, like the docking you mentioned that we should be able to do in about five or six months.

Kristen Fisher (26:27)

Jackie, I know the Artemis 2 crew has been so fired up about the thought of the future Artemis missions that will follow them. That plays a big role in their motivation, knowing that what they're doing on this mission is gonna play such a role in Artemis 3 and 4. So how much, how, how big of a role will this crew be playing in the training of the next cruise? Artemis 3 and 4?

Jackie Mahaffy (26:52)

Yeah. Other than all of the feedback that they have given us along the way for the last three years on how to improve the training, I know that their hope is when they return they will, they will get some time to sit down with the astronauts in their office and hopefully some of the folks that may be in line for the next missions and share some of those things with them. And it may be less the technical sides and more the aspects of hey, here's what this Artemis mission paradigm looks like compared to your previous experience on ISS and these are the things to think about as a cross through as you head into the next mission.

Tim Peake (27:33)

That's such an important point, Jackie and it's quite funny. We interviewed Jeremy Hansen before this mission and one of the things he said was there's no one to tell us what riding SLS feels like. You know, if you, if you tended to launch on the shuttle or I launched on the Sawyers, I had somebody to tell me or watch out for this. Certainly re entry, you know, lots of things going on, spacecraft separating, tumbling before hitting the top of the earth atmosphere. And Jeremy was kind of saying we're going to be the ones who are going to impart this information onto our future crews. That's a really important role for them to do obviously to give other crews that feedback too.

Jackie Mahaffy (28:11)

Absolutely.

Maggie Adairin (28:12)

That's all we have time for. So thank you so much Jackie for joining us, especially with your busy schedule.

Tim Peake (28:17)

Yeah, wonderful to talk to you Jackie. Thank you. And thank you as ever to Kristen for joining us. Kristen, I didn't actually ask at the beginning where are, where are you? Yesterday you were New York. Where are you today I am, I

Kristen Fisher (28:27)

am back in Washington D.C. so back home for the first time in a while and just made it in time to see my daughter in a school play.

Tim Peake (28:39)

Wonderful, fantastic, lovely. Well thank you so much.

Kristen Fisher (28:43)

Thank you.

Tim Peake (28:46)

A reminder, we're doing an episode every, every day for this mission so do follow or subscribe to 13min so you never miss an episode and do leave us a review if you can but that's it for today. So goodbye from me, Tim Peake and me, Maggie Adairin.

Maggie Adairin (29:01)

The producers are Alex Mansfield and Sophie Ormiston and the series editor is Martin Smith.

Tim Peake (29:07)

And our thanks to Hans Zimmer and Christian Lundberg at Bleeding Fingers Music for

Maggie Adairin (29:11)

our theme music 14 minutes presents Artemis 2 is a BBC audio science production for the BBC World Service.

Integrity Crew Member (29:39)

Sam. Foreign.

BBC Announcer (30:18)

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