Artemis II: 8. Final Approach

Summary

Podcast Summary: 13 Minutes Presents: Artemis II

Episode 8: Final Approach
Date: April 6, 2026
Host(s): Tim Peake, Maggie Aderin
Contributors: Kristin Fisher (US space journalist), Dr. Matthias Bazna (astronaut behavioral health expert), Rebecca Morelle (BBC Science Editor)
Crew Discussed: Reid Wiseman, Victor Glover, Christina Koch, Jeremy Hansen

Episode Overview

This episode of 13 Minutes Presents: Artemis II tracks Artemis II as it approaches its dramatic lunar flyby—the crew is set to loop around the far side of the Moon, go further from Earth than any human in history, and break the distance record set by Apollo 13. The hosts provide mission updates, explore lunar mechanics, discuss astronaut psychology and health, and feature a dispatch from Mission Control as anticipation builds for the flyby.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Special Message from Apollo Astronaut Charlie Duke

• Former Apollo 16 astronaut Charlie Duke leaves a heartfelt message for Artemis II.
  • Quote: “Below you on the moon is a photo of my family. I pray it reminds you that we in America and all of the world are cheering you on. Thanks to you and the whole team on the ground for building on our Apollo legacy with Artemis, Godspeed and safe travels home.” — Charlie Duke (02:12)

2. Pre-Flyby Updates: Crew Testing and Trajectory

• Artemis II is now within the Moon’s “sphere of influence,” meaning lunar gravity dominates.
  • Kristin Fisher: “The Artemis crew is now within what’s called the Moon’s sphere of influence...the most exciting and visually stimulating part of this mission” (03:15)
• Crew successfully completed suit pressurization tests in Orion at 11 psi (2/3 of Earth’s atmosphere) to simulate emergency scenarios.
  • Tim Peake: “It becomes very difficult to work when we go on a spacewalk... Your fingers are very stiff. It's hard to bend your arms. Any fidelity goes away from your gloves.” (05:08)
• A “correction burn” was executed, perfecting their trajectory. Previous planned burns had been skipped—their course was so accurate.

3. The Lunar Flyby: Ambitions and History

• The crew will break Apollo 13’s distance record, intentionally this time.
  • Kristin Fisher: “They’re set today to break that record for the furthest that humans have ever gone from Earth. And of course, that record was set by Apollo 13, not on purpose, but out of survival…” (07:01)
• The mission includes a planned 46-minute communications blackout while passing behind the Moon—a tense but expected event Mission Control and crew have trained for.

4. The Moon’s “Far Side” and Observations

• Clarification of “far side” vs. “dark side” of the Moon; discussion of tidal locking.
  • Maggie Aderin: “Tidal locking…is about how the Moon rotates on its axis and orbits the Earth at the same time. So the same side of the moon is always facing towards us.” (08:45)
• The crew will witness the terminator (the line between lunar day and night) and observe lunar terrain, illuminated in unique ways.

5. What the Crew Will See: Human Eyes and the “Private Eclipse”

• The crew will directly observe, sketch, and audio-describe lunar features; human vision brings nuance beyond any camera.
  • Kristin Fisher: “No camera can quite capture all the intricacies like the human eye can.” (10:09)
• Unique “private eclipse”: The precise launch date means only this crew will see the sun’s corona as the Moon passes in front of the sun—a view invisible to anyone else in the solar system.
  • Kristin Fisher: “…Only these four people are going to get to see the sun’s corona peeking out from behind the moon.” (10:51)

6. The Legacy of “Earthrise” and Viewpoints

• There’s anticipation about whether Artemis II can recreate the iconic Apollo 8 “Earthrise” photo.
  • Kristin Fisher: “No pressure, right? Forget about launch and re-entry. I've got to recreate Earthrise...” (13:04)
  • Tim Peake: Cautious expectations about recreating the photo, given their 4,000-mile altitude (13:46).

7. Mission Records: Distance and Trajectory

• Explaining the record distance: Artemis II targets 406,773 km from Earth, surpassing Apollo 13 by 6,600 km.
• Differences in trajectory: Artemis II’s free return trajectory is planned; Apollo 13’s was an emergency.
  • Tim Peake: “Artemis II is a planned free return trajectory, but interestingly, so were most of the Apollo missions...” (15:26)
• The notion of “free return” means, thanks to celestial mechanics, no propulsion is needed after the initial trajectory adjustment.
  • Maggie Aderin: “…it’s sort of free return, so no propulsion needed…Newton's laws all at work.” (18:24, 18:58)
• Clarification: Artemis II will not enter lunar orbit; only future Artemis lander missions will do so.

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8. Astronaut Health and Behavior: Interview with Dr. Matthias Bazna

• Why test astronaut cognition?

  • Astronauts must maintain peak performance; even small cognitive lapses can risk the mission.
  • NASA’s specially designed test battery includes risk-taking, emotion recognition, memory, and vigilance.
    • Dr. Matthias Bazna: “Taking an off the shelf test battery that we routinely use on Earth may not really work for astronauts because the test may be too easy for them, it may be boring. It may also not be sensitive enough…” (21:50)

• Sleep and Circadian Rhythms in Space

  • Space disrupts normal human sleep: ISS astronauts only clock just over six hours' sleep—less than the recommended seven.
  • Sleep deprivation, high CO2, and noise can fragment sleep and degrade cognitive performance.
    • Dr. Matthias Bazna: “Astronauts...typically clock a little bit above six hours of sleep. You know, that's the data we have so far. And that is not really enough...” (32:46)
    • “We found that on the ISS the caffeine consumption actually goes up, you know, as the mission progresses...” (32:46)
    • Tim Peake: “You do not want to be on a space station that's running out of caffeine. Caffeine, it's the worst place in the world.” (34:56)

• Long-Duration Flight: What Happens to Astronauts?

  • Findings from the NASA Twins Study: Major cognitive decrements in astronaut Scott Kelly appeared after returning to Earth, not while in space. The brain’s re-adaptation to gravity may be “the bigger problem” than the flight itself.
    • Dr. Matthias Bazna: “The interesting thing with Scott [Kelly] was that we saw more major decrements once he returned to Earth and that was not...something that went away quickly.” (27:17)

• Confinement and Personal Space

  • Unlike the ISS, Artemis II’s Orion capsule is extremely small for four people. For longer missions, lack of private space could increase tension and psychological stress.
    • Dr. Matthias Bazna: “We as humans, psychologically we need our own space. At some point during the day, we need to be on our own…” (30:02)

• Why is Artemis II scientifically important?

  • This mission takes the first modern human crew outside of Earth’s strong magnetic field (“comfortably in low Earth orbit”), exposing them directly to space radiation—crucial for studying its effects.
    • Dr. Matthias Bazna: “There is no turning back...Space radiation is one of the potential showstoppers…” (35:57)

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9. Dispatch from Rebecca Morelle, Inside Mission Control

• Scene inside Houston: Teams intensely monitor Artemis II; each flight controller is focused on different spacecraft systems.
• The upcoming 40-minute comms blackout is “incredibly tense”—entirely normal, but emotionally gripping for everyone in Mission Control.
  • Rebecca Morelle: “[T]he link is going to be lost as the Moon blocks the signals from the spacecraft. I mean, it is going to be an incredibly tense time here...” (39:21)
• The real excitement for scientists: Beyond stunning images, it’s the astronauts’ audio descriptions—personal, scientific impressions in real time—that will “really add the context to the images, they'll bring them to life.” (41:13)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Charlie Duke’s encouragement: “Godspeed and safe travels home.” (02:12)
• Kristin Fisher on the ‘private eclipse’: “Only these four people are going to get to see the sun’s corona peeking out from behind the moon.” (10:51)
• Maggie Aderin on the relevance of school maths: “Sometimes we're doing that sort of that maths in school... you think, what's this all about? This is what it's all about. And it really works.” (20:07)
• Dr. Matthias Bazna on astronaut privacy: “The crew, they need to have their private quarters, however small they're going to be...” (30:02)
• Tim Peake on caffeine: “You do not want to be on a space station that's running out of caffeine.” (34:56)
• Rebecca Morelle on astronaut audio descriptions: “They'll really add the context to the images, they'll bring them to life...we'll also hear the excitement in the astronauts' voices.” (41:13)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 02:12: Charlie Duke’s message to Artemis II
• 03:15: Artemis II enters Moon’s “sphere of influence”
• 05:08: Spacesuit pressurization test in Orion explained
• 07:01: Discussion on impending lunar flyby and breaking the Apollo 13 distance record
• 08:45: The truth about the “far side” of the Moon and tidal locking
• 10:09: Human observation vs. cameras; anticipation for the “private eclipse”
• 13:04: Can Artemis II recreate “Earthrise”?
• 15:26: Explanation of free return trajectories; Artemis II vs. Apollo 13
• 18:24: “Free” in “free return” trajectory
• 21:50: Dr. Matthias Bazna on astronaut cognition testing
• 27:17: NASA Twins Study findings: cognition in long duration flight
• 30:02: Astronaut psychology: the challenge of confinement
• 32:46: Astronaut sleep deficits and caffeine consumption
• 35:57: Unique health research opportunities on Artemis II—deep space radiation
• 38:59: Mission Control dispatch from Rebecca Morelle
• 41:13: Why astronaut audio descriptions matter for lunar science

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Conclusion

This episode sets the stage for Artemis II’s lunar flyby, blending history, science, and personal insight. It reveals the technical triumphs and human stories layered within this modern Moon mission—from the physical and psychological challenges faced by astronauts to the moments that capture the world's imagination. The anticipation for the flyby is palpable, both among the podcast team and those watching in Mission Control. The episode stands as both a briefing on the state of space exploration and a testament to the enduring wonder of venturing far from home.

Transcript

[Tim Peake]

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[Tim Peake]

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[Tim Peake]

Read, watch and listen to trusted independent journalism and storytelling. It all starts with a subscription to BBC.com and the BBC app. Find out more at BBC.com unlimited. Welcome to 13 Minutes presents Artemis 2 from the BBC World Service. I'm astronaut Tim Peake and this is episode eight, Approaching Flight day six.

[Maggie Adairin]

And I'm space scientist Maggie Adairin. We're following the progress of the first crude mission around the moon in more than 50 years with a new episode every day.

[BBC Announcer]

Hello, Reed, Victor, Christina and Jeremy. This is Apollo 16 astronaut Charlie Duke. John Young and I landed on the Moon in 1972 in the lunar module we named Orion. I'm glad to see a different kind of Orion helping return humans to the moon. As America charts the course to the lunar surface. Below you on the moon is a photo of my family. I pray it reminds you that we in America and all of the world are cheering you on. Thanks to you and the whole team on the ground for building on our Apollo legacy with Artemis, Godspeed and safe travels home.

[Tim Peake]

That was an incredibly special message there from Apollo astronaut Charlie Duke to the crew of Artemis 2, which we'll talk about in a minute. But first, as ever, we're joined by space journalist Kristin Fisher. Kristin, hello. And where in the world are you today?

[Kristin Fisher]

I am in New York City today because it is Lunar Flyby Day. Happy lunar flyby day, everybody. It's good to see all of you. And, you know, it's also since we last spoke, the Artemis crew is now within what's called the moon's sphere of influence. I love this phrase, meaning that the moon's gravitational pull is now stronger than Earth's. So we're now just hours away from, I think, probably the most exciting and. And most visually stimulating part of this mission. After a very successful day yesterday, Tim and Maggie, yesterday we got to watch the Artemis 2 crew don their big orange spacesuits, really test them out, check them for any pressurization leaks, sit down in them, make sure they're comfortable, make sure they can eat and drink in them. That works successfully. And then the other big thing they did was a correction burn. Remember the first two? They decided not to do the correction burns because their trajectory was so on point. After that first TLI burn, the translunar injection burn. This one they did decide to do only for a few seconds, about 17 seconds, but they are now on a perfect trajectory integrity.

[BBC Announcer]

Houston, good burn. We are assessing the details.

[Dr. Matthias Bazna]

Good news, and we see the same.

[Kristin Fisher]

Thanks, Mark. Great to finally do a burn.

[BBC Announcer]

I know a nice, beautiful little burn, too.

[Kristin Fisher]

I'm so excited. And I just want to give a shout out to listener Bobby Joyce, who got in touch with the show to say how glad he was that Charlie had the opportunity to leave that message this morning for the crew. He'd met Charlie Duke three times over the years, and so it was a moment for him. But also, of course, I mean, to hear Charlie Duke give you that message before your Lunar flyby, the 10th person to walk on the moon. What a moment for the crew, too.

[Tim Peake]

That was absolutely incredible. Thank you for the update, Chris. And yes, I've had the honor of meeting Charlie on many occasions. And he is such a lovely, warm, natured person. And that would be very special for that crew. But I was also interested with the Orion crew Survival System suit test that they did yesterday. They actually depressurized the Orion capsule a little bit down to about 11 psi, which is they reduced it down to about two thirds of Earth's atmosphere, essentially. And that's so that the crew could. Could feel what it would be like inside a pressurized suit because it becomes very difficult to work when we go on a spacewalk. And there's a big pressure difference between inside our suit and the vacuum of space. So Your fingers are very stiff. It's hard to bend your arms. Any fidelity goes away from your gloves. And they had to practice installing their seats inside those pressurized suits. And two of them got into their suits as if it was an emergency. And two of them got into their suits in a more leisurely fashion. But it was great to see another stage of this Orion test flight pass successfully.

[Maggie Adairin]

It's quite interesting because I think it was Alexei Yanov who was the first person to do a spacewalk. And he said that. Yeah. When he went out, his suit, of course, because of the vacuum of space, inflated. And so much so that he couldn't actually get back into the capsule. So he had to actually bleed out a little of the air inside his suit so he had a bit more flexibility so he could crawl back in. That must have been a challenging position.

[Tim Peake]

And he didn't tell Mission Control about it either, not till afterwards. He thought, yeah, I mean, what a phenomenal story.

[Kristin Fisher]

As any good cosmonaut would.

[Maggie Adairin]

So today they're preparing for the lunar flyby, which will happen later on tonight.

[Tim Peake]

Yes. And they'll be making those lunar observations that we've been talking about. And they'll also have a communications blackout period for about 46 minutes as they go around the far side of the moon.

[Kristin Fisher]

And they're set today to break that record for the furthest that humans have ever gone from Earth. And of course, that record was set by Apollo 13, not on purpose, but out of survival after that explosion of an oxygen tank. Really put their entire lives in peril. Don't worry about this today. This is planned. This is by design. And Tim and Maggie, I also think it's important for our listeners to just remember as they're watching this that this communications blackout is planned. It's perfectly normal. And it's something that all the Apollo astronauts had to deal with as well. So this is something that these astronauts, while it may seem. Seem a little scary and nerve wracking to us. It's something that they train for extensively, right, Tim?

[Tim Peake]

Absolutely. Yeah. They will be very trained for it. They'll be prepared for it. Yes, there'll be a bit of anxiety at Mission Control. You never like to lose communications with a spacecraft, but of course they'll be ready for it. And something I thought also we might chat about to help our listeners. And I'm going to throw this onto Maggie to try and explain. Okay. Yeah. Have this curveball. We know we shouldn't talk about the dark side of the moon because it's the far side of the moon and we have a near side. And we always look at the near side of the moon because it's tidally locked to us. So sometimes the far side can be in darkness and that's when we're seeing a full moon here on Earth. But sometimes the far side of the moon can be in full sunshine and that's when we see a new moon. So this crew, they're going to be seeing a kind of mixture of light and dark on the far side of the Moon. So is that right, Maggie? And how and why is our Moon tidally locked?

[Maggie Adairin]

Yes, and so tidally locked is, again, a bit of it can lead people in the wrong direction because it's got nothing to do with the tides on Earth, it's actually to do with objects in orbit about each other. It's taken many, many sort of billions of years for this to happen. But as the moon orbits around the Earth, it sort of pulls and sort of distorts the moon. And it distorts it. So as the moon rotates on its axis, it also rotates around the Earth. And that rotation on its axis ties with the rotation around the Earth. So as it goes round the Earth, that side of the moon is always pointing towards the Earth. As you said, people used to talk about the dark side of the moon. But yes, that side gets daylight, it gets darkness, but we only see one side of the Moon. But yes, this tidal locking is about how the moon rotates on its axis and orbits the Earth at the same time. So the same side of the moon is always facing towards us.

[Tim Peake]

And so as this crew orbit around the far side of the moon tonight, it's going to start off in daylight, bright sunshine for them. They'll be making their observations. And then at some point, as they transit around the far side, they'll see a terminator, which is that difference between light and dark, and then they will see just a dark section of the far side of the Moon. So, Kristen, I know you're going to be watching that and commentating on it tonight from New York. What are you most excited about as they pass around the far side?

[Kristin Fisher]

Oh, gosh, I've been thinking about that. You know, Tim, I think I'm most excited to see the images, right, see the images and hear their descriptions. Because a lot of people are asking what exactly are these astronauts going to be doing when they're making this flyby? And a lot of it is using these really high tech instruments called the human eyes. They're going to be looking and studying and it's they've really been trained to study the geology of the Moon. And so I'm just, I'm excited to hear what they're saying, how they're describing the features, because as we were talking about yesterday, no camera can quite capture all the intricacies like the human eye can. And then, Tim, the other big moment that I'm so excited about is this eclipse. It's essentially a private eclipse that these astronauts are going to get to see. The moon is going to slide in front of the sun. This has never been witnessed before by human eyes. And the only reason it's happened is because they launched precisely on April 1st. And so just the whole idea that you have these people traveling thousands of miles per hour, no telescopes can see this, no satellites can see it, no cameras on the ground can see it, no other humans. Only these four people are going to get to see the sun's corona peeking out from behind the moon. I just, I know I'm not going to get to see it, but I'm excited to see what it looks like to them when they're able to send us all the images and video.

[Maggie Adairin]

I've seen a total solar eclipse from the Earth and it blew my mind. I had to sit down afterwards. So getting these images back is going to be mind boggling. It's something that no human has ever seen before.

[Tim Peake]

It's going to be really exciting and I'm so glad you said that, Kristen. Yes. We have got the best computer in the universe with the best camera lens in the universe. We, which is the human brain and the human eye that will be observing this. They're all already talking about different color hues that they're seeing on the surface of the Moon and also looking at that kind of shadow because they're coming at an oblique angle and the sun is not directly impacting the moon. They're seeing shadows. And when you see shadows, you get to see terrain and relief and you get to see the scale of the mountains. You can hear the excitement in their voice when they're talking about these craters. It's absolutely phenomenal. Have you been listening to this as well, Maggie?

[Maggie Adairin]

Yes, because I think in the past with the Apollo moon landings and the Apollo missions, they sort of flew quite close to the moon. So they sort of saw a swathe of the Moon in great detail. But of course these guys are going to be about 4,000 miles away from the Moon. So see the whole of the lunar surface. Also, because they're moving around the Moon, the angle of the light is changing for them. So they'll see the Moon in different relief. And especially at that terminator, that difference between the light and the dark, that's where the relief really stands out. So you can see the details of the craters and the. So I'm a lunatic and I love the Moon, so I just can't wait to see the images they're gonna send back.

[Kristin Fisher]

Oh, and one more thing. I'm just so excited about this. I know y' all are too, but one of the images I'm most excited for is to see if these astronauts are able to sort of recreate that famous Earthrise photo from Apollo 8 that's actually in their, you know, mission, you know, objectives of, you know, are they able to recreate one of the world's most famous pictures? I mean, no pressure, right? Forget about launch and re entry. I've got to recreate Earthrise. Are you kidding me?

[Maggie Adairin]

So the lovely thing is Earthrise was totally spontaneous. And so the idea that they're recreating it now, when it was, when the Apollo 8 astronauts did it, it was totally spontaneous and changed the world. So, yes, let's see what they get. What, let's see what they send back.

[Tim Peake]

It will be interesting. I'm not getting too excited about that because I'm not sure it will. It will be the same because when Apollo 8 was so close to the moon's surf, they got that real feeling that it was like a sunrise, a sunset. What they're going to see tonight from 4,000 miles away, they're going to see they're coming from a black, a dark moon, and then they'll see the Earth coming out of that dark moon. But it will be interesting to see what it looks like, definitely.

[Maggie Adairin]

So we'll hear more about that flyby tomorrow. But still to come, we'll be talking to someone who studies astronaut behavior actually out there in space. So, yeah, look out, Tim. But first, we have a couple of email questions from our bulging inbox and

[Kristin Fisher]

we love how many are coming in. Please keep them coming. Rob in the UK writes. Dear 13 minutes team, there's been a lot of media comments on the Artemis 2 mission going further away from Earth than humans have ever been before. Is that really further than Apollo 13 went on their free return trajectory in 1970? Perhaps a distinguished helicopter test pilot might explain to us enthusiasts the difference between the carefully planned trajectory of Artemis 2 around the Moon and the forced free return of Apollo 13. I wonder who he could be referring to there. And Jenny in New York has a similar question. Writing Hi, Tim, Maggie and Kristen. The crew are going to break the record for the distance from the Earth. But haven't people been in orbit around the Moon before? Why will they be farther away from Earth? So let's talk about this distance record and why will they be farther away from Earth? So I guess let's start with you, Tim. Because of Rob in the UK asking specifically for a distinguished helicopter test pilot. Can you explain to us?

[Tim Peake]

Okay, I'm on the spot now. But yes, the Artemis 2 crew are going to become the furthest humans away from Earth. They're going to get to around 406,773 kilometers away from Earth. And Apollo 13 on the 15th of April, back in 1970. So almost 56 years ago, they got to 400,171 kilometers. So I guess Artemis 2, they're going to get the record by about 6,600 kilometers, give or take. And yes, Artemis 2 is a planned free return trajectory, but interestingly, so were most of the Apollo missions. And certainly those early Apollo missions, they started on the same free return trajectory because it's safe if anything goes wrong with that service module, with the lunar module, with the engines, they simply stay on that trajectory and they come safely back to Earth. And then what they did is they did a lunar orbit insertion that's essentially a braking burn. Slow yourself down so you go into the moon's orbit. And when they got confidence in that technique, Apollo 8, Apollo 10, Apollo 11, then they said, well, let's go for this mid course correction. So they actually did, quite early on in their missions, they did a maneuver that set them up into what they called a hybrid orbit. And that meant that they were going to be able to target their landing sites with much greater precision. So with Apollo 13, they actually did that mid course correction. They were all good to go in their hybrid orbit. Then they had the oxygen tank explosion and then they were like, right, let's get ourselves back onto that free return trajectory. So they needed to add another 43 miles an hour to the spacecraft, which doesn't sound like much, but it made all the difference. So they did an engine burn that then got them back onto that free return trajectory. And that took them around the far side of the moon on that kind of slingshot. And then they had to do another burn and a final correction burn to set themselves up for the re entry and the splashdown. So, I mean, it was an incredible mission. And what was fascinating about that final burn, it only lasted about 21 seconds, but they had to do that with the guidance navigation computer shut down because they were trying to conserve as much electrical power as possible. This Apollo 13 crew, they had to do that burn with Jim Lovell looking at the terminator of Earth to give him some sort of attitude. Fred Haise was keeping an eye, an idea of the stability. And Jack Swiger, he was there with his watch, trying to time it. I mean, probably the gutsiest move in spaceflight I think we've ever seen.

[Maggie Adairin]

The fact that it was successful just. It's mind boggling, Right?

[Kristin Fisher]

Maggie, I've got a question for you. I've been thinking a lot about this free return trajectory and what an elegant thing it is. I mean, this is the same law of physics that applies to comets and asteroids, right? It's so elegant, right, like there's no propulsion needed. And so do I have it right, that the free in free return means free of propulsion?

[Maggie Adairin]

That's correct. That's my understanding, definitely. And so, yes, it's like they're sort of traveling round the moon using the far side of the Moon. They're assisted by the Earth's gravity and the Moon's gravity. But as you say, it's sort of free return, so no propulsion needed. So these burns that they're doing is just to get them on that trajectory. And that trajectory swings them around the moon. They go sort of, I think it's 4,106 miles beyond on the far side of the Moon. And then they glide gently back to Earth. I mean, it's beautiful. Celestial mechanics, Newton's laws all at work. And it brings them safely back home to splash down in the Pacific Ocean. But yes, the three is that no need for propulsion to bring them back home. Which is why, as Tim was saying, that's why a very safe route. If you've run out of fuel or whatever, you're still coming back home.

[Kristin Fisher]

And just to make sure we're answering everybody's questions fully, Jenny in New York, she had asked, you know, but haven't people been in orbit around the moon before? Jenny, just to be very clear, these astronauts are not going into orbit around the moon, right?

[Maggie Adairin]

Yeah, that's the case. They are on this trajectory. They will go sort of deep into space, as we say, deeper than anyone's been. They'll have a view of the far side of the moon and then they're coming home. But they are not, not on this trip. But of course, when we intend to get boots on the surface, then they will go in orbit about the moon and then land. But this isn't that sort of mission.

[Kristin Fisher]

I know we've been doing this for more than half a century on and off, but really, when the math and the physics, it all lines up, it really is a work of art, as you say, Maggie. It's just, I know it's math, I know it's science, I know it's physics. There are laws that govern these things. But when it all works like this, it's just, it's incredible to watch.

[Maggie Adairin]

It is. But also, I love to point this out because, you know, sometimes we're doing that sort of that maths in school, and we're sort of doing the sort of the equations, and you think, you know, what's this all about? This is what it's all about. And it really works. The fact that they're going all the way out there and coming all the way safely home, it pays off.

[Tim Peake]

Science comes in many different forms in space travel, as we've discussed a lot in this podcast. But perhaps the biggest amount of research time is on astronaut health. What can we learn about human health from this mission? We're joined now by an expert on astronaut Behavioral Health, Dr. Mattias Bazna. Mattias, welcome to 30 minutes from the BBC World Service.

[Dr. Matthias Bazna]

Hey, how are you guys? Thanks for having me.

[Tim Peake]

It's 2009, and we're in the German mountains. A man straps himself into a car on the world's most dangerous racetrack. He whispers to himself, it's time to put my balls on the dashboard as he starts the engine. In 15 minutes, he's in an ambulance, unconscious. In 15 years, he's a billionaire. This is Toto Wolff, Formula One's most powerful team boss and the breakout star of Drive to Survive. This week on Good, Bad Billionaire, How Toto Wolff made his billions. Listen, wherever you get your BBC podcasts, it's great to have you on the podcast. Mattias, you and your colleagues, you developed a cognition test battery for NASA, which I know is routinely taken by all astronauts on the iss, as I have fond memories of doing this test myself. So can you explain to us why studying cognition is so important and why did you have to make a test specific for astronauts?

[Dr. Matthias Bazna]

Yeah, so space is a very hostile environment, as you very well know, Tim. So, you know, tiny little mistakes can cause catastrophic events and in the end, a loss of the mission. So we have to have our astronauts perform at their best all the time, every time, so we can't allow these little mistakes. And in the end, you know, we want to monitor their cognitive performance while they're in space. And make sure that it is not deteriorating. This is why we developed the Cognition test battery for NASA specifically for high performing astronauts. Because we know that astronauts are a highly selected population, they're high performers, they're highly trained. And so taking an off the shelf test battery that we routinely use on Earth may not really work for astronauts because the test may be too easy for them, it may be boring. It may also not be sensitive enough to see effects in astronauts because they do have a high reserve capacity. So we generated this battery for NASA. It's very broad. It has 10 different tests. As you know, we're looking at all sorts of things at memory, at psychomotor vigilance, at risk taking, even at things like emotion recognition. Because it will be very important if you're like traveling to Mars with just very few selected crewmates that you're still able to read their faces and not misinterpret them. So this is why we designed this for NASA and they've been using it for quite a while now.

[Tim Peake]

I do remember taking those tests and some of them actually were really good fun after a long day. They're certainly the one about attitude to risk. And just explain Chris and the Maggie. This was one where you pressed the space bar on the computer and it inflated a balloon. And the balloon was money. So the bigger the balloon got, the more money you got. And then you could bank it or you could keep going. And of course, if you could kept going a bit too far, the bloom per person, you'll get nothing. So it was a kind of like a fun. What's your appetite for risk and attitude to risk. And of course you're not really playing against other people. It's a test, I guess, against yourself, against your own performance back on Earth. But also, Mattis, what interested me is you got us to do this at different times of the day when we were perhaps more stressed, less stressed, well rested, not so well rested. So what differences do you find about astronaut performance during their sort of daily cycle?

[Dr. Matthias Bazna]

Yeah, it's quite interesting actually, that we as humans, we are performing pretty well throughout our whole day. And the trick there is that we have like a homeostatic system. Basically, the longer we are awake, the more sleep pressure is building up. But we also have a circadian system that is undulating at a period that is about 24 hours, which is like the Earth day. And actually the circadian system is promoting wakefulness towards the end of the day. So because of that interaction, because of the two, they kind of feel the same. And we perform the same across the 16 hours awake. Now the tricky part is that of course on the I.S.S. you're not living a 24 hour day, right? You have like a sunset and a sunrise every 90 minutes. And that will be completely different on our way to Mars as well. So you know, the sunlight, which is the major entrainer which makes sure that our internal body systems, our biology is entrained to the light and day of the earth, that signal is no longer there in spaceflight. And actually we participated in the so called Mars500 study where six people were on a simulated mission to Mars, confined to that space for 520 days. And lo and behold, we could see that one of these simulated astronauts was starting to free run, was not living a 24 hour day anymore, was living a 25 hour day. And that means that every 12 days it was the middle of the day for him, when it was the middle of the night for the rest of the crew. And that of course is not optimal.

[Kristin Fisher]

Matthias, before we go any further, I have to stop you and ask you, I mean, come on, how did Tim do? Can we get some results on.

[Tim Peake]

That's medical incompetence. Christian, he'll never say.

[Maggie Adairin]

Just between me, you and the listeners. Come on, you can smell the beats.

[Dr. Matthias Bazna]

Well, you know, luckily there is, you know, there's rules around that and you know, I, I cannot disclose that. I mean, Tim would disclose it himself.

[Maggie Adairin]

I'm sure he was impeccable.

[Dr. Matthias Bazna]

He was, he was impeccable. I mean, you know, but that's, that's true for like every astronaut I've worked with so far. They're just so interested in the research, they're highly motivated and that just makes a lot of fun to work with these guys. So thank you Tim, as a stand in for the whole astronaut community.

[Tim Peake]

That's very kind of you to say, Matthias. Thank you.

[Kristin Fisher]

So in addition to Tim, some of the other astronauts that you have studied are the identical twin astronauts. Mark and Scott Kelly, you were one of the researchers involved in that big NASA twin space study. And of course in 2015, Scott spent a year aboard the International Space Station while Mark remained back on earth. What differences did you find in their cognition after that year?

[Dr. Matthias Bazna]

Yeah, first of all, this was one of the greatest privileges I had. You know, being one of the 10 principal investigators that did this study for NASA was kind of a test balloon for NASA. You know, can we do this omics research in individual astronauts? Because there are a lot of privacy issues, obviously. There's also a lot of issues around getting all the samples in flight and getting them back to Earth. And this study looked at everything from microbiology, genetic changes, epigenetic changes, the microbiome, proteomics, physiology. And then in the end was my project looking at cognition and behavior, what all these other things inform. And now, interestingly, we didn't see a lot of differences in flight. We were expecting to see more of a cognitive decline towards the end of that 12 month mission. Right. We have very few astronauts who have experienced that. I think we are like in the 6th and 7th or something. So we have very little information on what's happening to astronauts if they spend so much time consecutively in space. The interesting thing with Scott was that we saw more major decrements once he returned to Earth and that was not like something that went away quickly, it was a protected thing. Even like our last test was six months after he returned and we still saw those decrements. And that is in line with what he reported when he returned. He had done a six month ISS mission before and he said he recovered much more quickly after the six month mission. And he reported that it took him almost half a year to get back to normal. So it may be actually, I mean, those transitional periods are always the problem in space. Like going into space, your brain has to reprogram itself and then the same is true when you're coming back to Earth. And it looks like that that actually may be the bigger problem. And of course it does have consequences. If we send people to Mars, they spend light, a lot of time in space before they get there and then they hit the ground. And of course this is a very mission critical phase where you have to do landing, set up all the equipment on Mars, and you may not be performing at your best. So that was the first hint that that may be a very critical phase. Obviously we need more people, we need more data. But that's what we always say as scientists. Right. That's why it's called research.

[Maggie Adairin]

You can never have too much data.

[Dr. Matthias Bazna]

Absolutely.

[Maggie Adairin]

So coming back to the Artemis crew in the Orion capsule, they're in a very confined space, especially when you compare it to the iss, which I think must be quite luxurious. Now what impact does this confinement have on the crew's psychology, especially for future and longer missions?

[Dr. Matthias Bazna]

Yeah, it's absolutely true. The ISS by now is like a four bedroom house, it's ginormous and it's nothing that we could ever send to Mars or to the moon for that matter. Right. Actually, astronauts are reporting sometimes that they haven't Seen a fellow astronaut for a couple of hours or almost the whole day because they're doing the research in one module and they're not seeing anyone. That doesn't happen on Orion because it is very small, very tight space. Whatever we're going to send to Mars first is also going to be very small and very confined. The important thing is that we as humans, psychologically we need our own space. At some point during the day, we need to be on our own, we need to be able to reflect, we need to be able to get away from other people because if we do have a conflict with someone, we need some space to just get out of the way, calm down, settle, and then we can go back into the situation. But you don't have that in a space like Orion. I recall in the distant past I was part of an expert commission, basically setting up the rules. How does the spacecraft have to look like that? We send into Mars and the one thing that we said is the crew, they need to have their private quarters, however small they're going to be, they need to have their private space to wait in. And I mean, Tim can perhaps speak to that. On the ISS you have your crew quarter and sometimes it just feels good to get in there to be in your own world. You can perhaps have your private conversation with your family, et cetera. And of course they don't have that on Orion right now. Granted it's, it's a relatively short mission, so it's not going to be an issue for them. But if you have a much longer mission to Mars, for example, then it could become a problem.

[Tim Peake]

Yeah, absolutely right, Matthias. Yeah, that sort of personal space becomes so important to be able to just reset and actually kind of following on from that, this ability to kind of reset yourself emotionally and physically and give yourself the strength to carry on with the mission. When we think about things going wrong, there'll be a lot of adrenaline involved at various times of the mission, which might impact sleep cycles. And I was talking to a botanist out in Arizona not so long ago about growing lettuce leaves and how you can stress a lettuce. They don't actually need that much rest, they just bombard them with ultraviolet light, give them the nutrients and you can grow a lettuce in a really short space of time. So when it comes to stressing an astronauts in something like the Apollo 13 mission, which we were speaking about earlier, how much stress can the human body take? What would you look at in terms of their cognition, their performance? What would be the absolute bare minimum in terms of that kind of rest period in order that they can actually function and do the job they need to.

[Dr. Matthias Bazna]

So we did one of the largest studies looking at sleep and cognitive performance on the ISS in 24 astronauts. And the question is, you know, do astronauts need as much sleep in space as they would need on Earth? And our results basically say yes, they do. I mean, it's very true on Earth we need a certain amount of, of not only long enough duration sleep, but it also needs to be high quality sleep. Actually the American Academy of Sleep Medicine and the Sleep Research Society, they say on average, you know, humans need to sleep seven hours per night to maintain high levels of cognitive performance and well being and health in the long run. And we found that on the ISS the astronauts are typically clocking like a little bit above six hours of sleep. You know, that's the data we have so far. And that is not really enough to sustain wellbeing and cognitive performance. We also saw on those missions that the caffeine consumption actually goes up, you know, as the mission progresses, which suggests that they're, you know, applying this countermeasure of CAD caffeine to counteract the performance decrement, you see, with, with increasing time and mission. And if there is this adrenaline moment or the emergency that they, yes, they have trained for, we still want their brains to function, you know, a hundred percent. So, you know, again, the private crew quarter is going to be important for that. We looked at environmental stresses on the iss. Noise is very bad. The ISS can be a very noisy environment with alarms and clanking and clocking. We have high CO2 levels often in flight, like carbon dioxide levels. And we've done studies on the ground where you can see that that is fragmenting sleep. So it's the environment, it's the psychology around the mission, it's, it's the day being too packed. On the ISS we have astronauts perform a lot of research and they have to do maintenance of the iss and then yes, they actually still want to live their life. They want to look outside and observe Earth. They want to have some social time with their crew, right? So this is what's cutting into their sleep time. And we really can't have that, we don't want that.

[Tim Peake]

I have to say I just had a chuckle to myself there, Mattias. You do not want to be on a space station that's running out of caffeine. Caffeine, it's the worst place in the world. We can do without food, we can do without exercise, we can do without earthly comforts. But pack that spacecraft with caffeine, please.

[Dr. Matthias Bazna]

Yeah, that's true.

[Maggie Adairin]

A message for the mission to Mars there.

[Kristin Fisher]

You know, so much of the research on astronaut health has been done on the International Space Station in low Earth orbit, where they have large quantities of. Of coffee and caffeine. But this crew, the Artemis II crew, you know, they're going into deep space near the moon. And the last time any humans have done that was in the 1960s and 70s. And just think about all the incredible advancements in modern medicine since then. And so I'm curious what you're really looking forward to in terms of the Artemis 2 crew's health as they fly through deep space when humans haven't done that in so long.

[Dr. Matthias Bazna]

Yeah, I think, you know, not only you guys, because, you know, I can feel the excitement in the room, but also the research community is very excited about this. And you kind of mention it. You know, the ISS sometimes is called a space analog environment because it's sitting so comfortably in low Earth orbit. Right. And there's, like, two things that that does. One is it's still within Earth's magnetic shield, right? So that space radiation issue that we will have during deep space travel and that the Artemis crew is experiencing right now, we don't have that to the same extent in low Earth orbit. The other thing is the rescue opportunity, right? You can just hop on the Soyuz, on the Dragon, you'll be back down to Earth like, you know, within a couple of hours, you know, very much like Sandra Bullock did it did in gravity. And once you're on the way to the Moon or you're on the way to Mars, there is no turning back, right? You have to do the whole trip. There is no turning around. Right. And then. You're absolutely right. I mean, one of the, what we called, like, a potential showstopper is just the space radiation is like solar flares and the cosmic rays that are bombarding the spacecraft and the crew. And it's really very hard to protect the crew against that radiation because, you know, if some shielding actually will cause secondary radiation, that can be even worse for the crew than the initial radiation. So, you know, this is what we are really, you know, interested in, these new mission parameters and what that does to astronauts on their way to the Moon and then eventually, you know, on the lunar surface for longer periods of time, that's going to be super interesting.

[Maggie Adairin]

Thank you so much, Matthias. But that's all we've got time for today, but thank you for sharing your expertise with us.

[Dr. Matthias Bazna]

Thank you so much for having me. This was great and you're doing a great job. Thank you so much.

[Tim Peake]

That was a fascinating conversation. Thank you. Matthias and Kristen, of course. Thank you so much to you as well.

[Kristin Fisher]

Bye, Tim. Bye, Maggie. See you after lunar flyby.

[Tim Peake]

See you tomorrow.

[Maggie Adairin]

Yeah, see you tomorrow.

[Tim Peake]

A reminder, we're doing an episode every day for this mission, so do follow or subscribe to 13minute so you never miss an episode. But that's it for today. So goodbye from me, Tim Peake and me, Maggie Adairin.

[Maggie Adairin]

The producers are Alex Mansfield and Sophie Ormiston and the series editor is Martin Smith.

[Tim Peake]

And our thanks to Hans Zimmer and Christian Lundberg at Bleeding Fingers music for our epic theme music.

[Maggie Adairin]

13 Minutes presents Artemis 2 is a BBC audio science production for the BBC World Service. This.

[Tim Peake]

Hello again. And actually before we go, just as we were about to publish today's episode for you, BBC science editor Rebecca Morell sent us this dispatch from inside Mission Control at the Johnson Space Center. We thought you might like to hear it.

[Rebecca Morell]

Hello, Tim, Maggie and Kristin. I'm sorry I can't be speaking to you in person today, but we've had the chance to go back into mission Control and you really can't say no to that, can you? This is where I'm standing right now. There's some glass in front of us, which is important because it means I can speak to you without disturbing the team who I can tell you are concentrating really hard right now. There are about 20 desks with people sitting behind them staring intently at at the data streaming back from the spacecraft. Each person is looking after a different part of the spacecraft, from the propulsion to the navigation to the communications to the life support. Right at the center of the room is the flight director. Now they are in charge of the whole show. I mean, that is a very big job, isn't it? And of course, next to them is what's known as the Capcom, the capsule communicator. And it is their voice that the astronauts hear. It's their constant link with home. But for about 40 minutes, that voice is going to go silent. That link is going to be lost as the moon blocks the signals from the spacecraft. I mean, it is going to be an incredibly tense time here in mission control and they will be waiting for that signal to be re established. Now, for the four astronauts, it is just going to be them and the moon. Can you imagine that? They're going to be the humans that have gone further than any humans have ever gone from home before breaking that Apollo 13 record, but they're going to be busy. I mean, the science team here have given them A list of 35 parts of the moon to study. They're going to be taking images, they've got lots of, of different digital cameras on board, they're going to be making sketches, they're going to annotate them. And I think my favorite thing actually is they're going to be giving audio descriptions. So as they look down at these features on the moon, they're going to be recording what they see as they, as they fly over the various different parts. Now the astronauts have been in training for this. Actually there's been a team of lunar scientists who've got them ready for this. They've got been learning about geology, they've done that in the classroom, they've gone on field trips. But really this is going to be the ultimate exam for them. You know, this flyby moment is the moment we've all been, we've all been waiting for. Now it's going to take a little bit of time to get all of the images back. They're expecting that thousands of them are going to be taken by the team and also to get those audio descriptions back to Earth as well. And actually it's interesting because when we spoke some of the lunar scientists, we asked them what they were most excited about coming back from the mission and I thought they were going to say the images and I mean it will be spectacular imagery, you know, a new way to look at the moon. But actually they've all said it's those audio descriptions because they'll really add the context to the images, they'll bring them to life. But they said we'll also hear the excitement in the astronauts voices. Now it's a really, really big day here at mission control and of course for the astronauts themselves. So I'll say bye bye for now and hopefully I'll be able to come and speak to you soon. Once the flyby is complete.

[Tim Peake]

It's 2009 and we're in the German mountains. A man straps himself into a car on the world's most dangerous racetrack. He whispers to himself, it's time to put my balls on the dashboard as he starts the engine. In 15 minutes, he's in an ambulance, unconscious. In 15 years, he's a billionaire. This is Toto Wolff, Formula One's most powerful team boss and the breakout star of Drive To Survive. This week on Good Bad Billionaire, How Toto Wolff made his billions. Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts,