13th Juror Podcast — Beyond the Jury Box: Richard Allen w/ Bob Motta
Episode Date: January 29, 2026
Host: Brandi Churchwell
Guest: Bob Motta (Criminal Defense Attorney, Host of "Buried" & "Defense Diaries")
Episode Overview
This episode ventures “beyond the jury box” in the high-profile Indiana v. Richard Allen ("Delphi Murders") case. Host Brandi Churchwell is joined by criminal defense attorney Bob Motta—who attended the trial—to discuss major pieces of evidence, alternative suspects, law enforcement decisions, and legal strategies that were not presented to the jury. The conversation scrutinizes the trial’s transparency (or lack thereof), critical doubts about the investigation, and new angles like Odinism and potential third-party involvement.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Bob Motta's Involvement in the Case
- How He Got Involved:
- Motta, from Chicagoland (2.5 hours from Delphi), first became interested due to the unusual secrecy around the case, specifically the sealing of the probable cause affidavit (PCA).
- The judge who issued the arrest warrant recused himself citing the “bloodlust” surrounding the case, which Motta found to be a red flag ([03:38-05:41]).
- Motta decided to attend every court session to relay firsthand information to the public given that there were no cameras allowed in court.
Quote:
“Part of what makes our criminal justice system great is the transparency... So right there, they kind of put up, like, a little bit of a red flag.”
—Bob Motta (03:38)
2. Cameras in the Courtroom & Lack of Transparency
- Cameras were banned, contributing to rampant speculation and fueling public mistrust.
- Motta was frustrated that the only time cameras were permitted was during the attorneys' withdrawal, which he felt revealed the court's priorities ([08:27-09:15]).
- Loss of transparency made it a “nightmare scenario.”
Quote:
“If we would have had cameras in there, especially for the trial, that would have really helped shed light on this case... The loss of not having the cameras in there created a nightmare scenario.”
—Bob Motta (09:12)
3. Evidence & Testimonies Not Heard by the Jury
a) Keegan Klein / Anthony Schatz ([09:52-13:27])
- Klein created a fake social media account to groom minor girls; he was raided weeks after the murders.
- Explicit images were found but Klein was not charged in connection with the Delphi murders.
- During jail interviews, Klein accused his father (Tony Klein) and made other accusations, leading police to search the Wabash River for discarded evidence.
- Investigators tried to link Allen and Klein but ultimately couldn’t establish a connection relevant to the crime.
b) Brad Weber (15:28-25:33)
- Weber’s shifting timeline and testimony were excluded from effective challenge due to a judge’s denial of remote testimony from an FBI agent (key impeachment witness).
- Judge’s rulings repeatedly stymied the defense’s ability to challenge the prosecution’s timeline or introduce contrary evidence.
Quote:
“She was just denying things that, in my estimation as an attorney, I think violated Allen’s rights to a fair trial... She wouldn’t cite any precedent.”
—Bob Motta (19:25)
c) Dr. Walla and the “Confession” ([25:33-32:18])
- Prison psychologist Dr. Walla’s testimony about Allen’s “confession” was heavily relied upon by the prosecution.
- Walla was herself a true crime enthusiast who had followed the case, listened to podcasts (including Motta’s), and even visited the crime scene.
- Defense argued that the critical “white van” detail in the confession likely originated from social media/fan theories, not from Allen.
- Jury did not hear about Walla’s background, her access to outside information, or the true credibility concerns behind her “independent detail.”
Quote:
“You’ve got this woman who is a professional... who is, for all intents and purposes, an expert and a doctor... Again, the defense is pretty limited in terms of what they're able to bring out in order to kind of mitigate that and rebut what she's saying...”
—Bob Motta (28:41)
d) Ron Logan ([32:18-39:43])
- Property owner near the crime scene; lied to police about his whereabouts to hide a parole violation.
- Cell records put Logan near the site but conclusions about his involvement remain unclear.
- Many more tips identified Logan than Allen, including several from those who recognized the "bridge guy."
- Logan ultimately died in 2022 before he could be excluded or further investigated.
e) Sketches ([39:43-47:42])
- Jury never saw police sketches — despite the fact that initial and revised sketches looked radically different and neither matched Allen.
- The most prominent eyewitness, Betsy Blair, described a much younger, taller suspect than Allen.
Quote:
“The fact that nobody ever gave that descriptor of him [Allen is very short] was really something... This is not the dude. Richard Allen is not the guy that these people saw, any of them, any of the descriptions.”
—Bob Motta (41:26)
f) Odinism / Third-Party Theories & Barred Defense ([47:42-61:45])
- Defense was barred from introducing evidence or even argument about Odinism—a Norse pagan group—and possible ritualistic motives, even though law enforcement itself initially investigated this angle.
- The Franks memo (136 pages) alleged other suspects had both confessed to relatives and had possible physical links. One such alternative suspect reportedly asked an officer, “If I spit on one of the girls but could explain it away, would I still be in trouble?” ([54:23])
- Unidentified male DNA from the scene not raised for the jury.
- Prison corrections officers were seen with Odinist patches—raising questions about motive, group influence, and Allen’s purported confessions under duress.
Quote:
“The things that I saw during that trial and everything leading up to it were so disturbing to me that it really got me to the point where I’m like, man, this guy just didn’t get a fair trial.”
—Bob Motta (31:43)
4. Legal Tactics & Judge’s Rulings
- Defense was systematically barred from introducing alternative suspect evidence, challenging the crime scene’s ritualistic features, or introducing expert testimony about the runes/sticks.
- They could not cross-examine witnesses meaningfully about their changing stories, nor illuminate logical alternative theories.
Quote:
“She cut them off at the knees from being able to put any defense on... Not only could they not bring up the third party culprits at all... They couldn’t refer to the crime scene at all as looking unusual... Never heard of a case [before] where what the crime scene looked like couldn’t be brought up and challenged by the defense.”
—Bob Motta (69:00)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Defense Rights:
“I just think... if you have the evidence to convict him, let's have the trial. Let's make it fair. That way, the family is not going to be exposed to the potential of having to sit through the nightmare of another trial...”
—Bob Motta (72:06) -
On Odinism Evidence:
“Everything that's contained within that Frank's memo came from the evidence that was tendered to the defense by the state. This wasn't some theory that was cooked up by the defense...”
—Bob Motta (51:00) -
On Unanswered Questions:
“Justice doesn't mean we just get a conviction of a guy who didn't do the crime. Justice is when we get the right culprit or culprits.”
—Bob Motta (61:44) -
On Jury Verdicts & Systemic Issues:
“You can have somebody who's been denied a fair trial who is guilty, but you can also have someone who's been denied a fair trial who's not guilty... I think he has been wrongfully convicted... I don't have any confidence in that verdict that they got the right person.”
—Bob Motta (72:58)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- [03:38] — How Bob Motta became involved in the case
- [05:41] — The impact of no cameras in the courtroom
- [09:52] — Keegan Klein / Anthony Schatz’s role and non-prosecution
- [15:28] — Brad Weber testimony and denied impeachment evidence
- [25:33] — How Dr. Walla’s true crime interest may have tainted Allen’s “confession”
- [32:31] — Ron Logan as a primary early suspect and conflicting evidence
- [39:43] — Drastically differing police sketches and their exclusion from evidence
- [47:42] — Odinism, Franks memo details, and omitted third-party investigations
- [66:00] — Odinist prison guards, solitary confinement, and Allen’s mental state
- [68:09] — How the defense was prevented from mounting a full case
- [72:57] — Reflection on the trial's fairness, lessons, and what comes next
Concluding Thoughts
This episode presents a critical, eye-opening analysis of the Richard Allen trial from a legal-expert’s perspective, focusing specifically on how the jury was kept from hearing key pieces of information—potentially undermining both the trial’s fairness and the reliability of its outcome. Through careful breakdowns, Motta and Churchwell highlight deep rifts in the investigative approach, the court’s evidentiary rulings, and the consequences of justice done behind closed doors. Listeners are left to ponder whether the system served its intended purpose—or at the cost of the truth.
Connect With This Episode
- Follow Bob Motta at the "Buried" and "Defense Diaries" podcasts for deeper dives into true crime and legal analysis.
- For visuals and further discussion, find 13th Juror Podcast on Instagram at @thirteenthjurorpodcast.