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13th Juror Podcast
The Case for Johnny Depp
00:37:35
What happens when a marriage implodes under the glare of worldwide fame and the fallout becomes a $50 million defamation battle? Hear Johnny Depp’s version of events, from volatile fights to the op-ed he claims ended his career.
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host
This podcast is sponsored by IQ Bar.
- [00:03]
Will (IQ Bar Creator)
I've got good news and bad news. Here's the bad news. Most protein bars are packed with sugar and unpronounceable ingredients. The good news? There's a better option. I'm Will and I created IQ Bar Plant Protein Bars to empower doers like you with clean, delicious, low sugar, brain and body fuel. IQ Bars are packed with 12 grams of protein, brain nutrients like magnesium and Lion's Mane and Zero Weird Stuff. And right now you can get 20% off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping. Try our delicious IQ Bar Sampler Pack with seven plant protein bars, four hydration mixes and four enhanced coffee sticks. Clean ingredients, amazing taste and you'll love how you feel. Refuel smarter, hydrate harder, Caffeinate larger with.
- [00:48]
Podcast Host
IQ Bar go to eatiqbar.com and enter code BAR20 to get 20% off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping. Again, go to eatiqbar.comand enter code BAR20.
- [01:03]
Brandi Churchwell (13th Juror Host)
Most of the time, when we think about the role of a jury, we picture 12 strangers listening to evidence about an accused criminal, then deciding whether that evidence proves guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. But juries aren't only called to decide criminal cases. Sometimes they're asked to decide something far less familiar. In one of the most watched civil trials of modern times, a jury was seated not to determine whether a physical crime had been committed, but whether people's words had crossed a legal line. The case involved two celebrities, their relationship, and a single op ed that allegedly cost an A list actor his reputation and his livelihood. By the time the case went to trial, most of the world had already made up its mind. Johnny Depp and Amber Heard were household names, and their relationship had been dissected across headlines, podcasts, and social media feeds for years. When the trial was broadcast, every argument, every accusation, and every intimate detail became public spectacle. Over the course of weeks, the world watched two people from the same relationship describe the same events using the same audio recordings, photographs, text messages, and witnesses. Yet they told two entirely different stories. Clips circulated, audiences picked sides. Social media rendered verdicts in real time. The public treated the trial as a referendum on who was telling the truth about what happened behind closed doors. But inside the courtroom, the jury's role was very different. The jurors weren't there to decide who was the villain in a failed marriage or who suffered more. This jury had to decide what the law protects as speech and what it doesn't, were the words Amber Heard wrote in her op ed, describing herself as a public figure representing Domestic abuse, protected speech under the law? Or did they cross the line into defamation? The plaintiff says the allegations were false, defamatory, and cost him everything. The defense says her words were truthful, protected by law, and she shouldn't be silenced. But it's the jurors who have the final say. This is the 13 Juror podcast, where we break down real court cases and put you in the juror's seat. Two sides, the same evidence. You decide what to believe. I'm your host, Brandi Churchwell. Today's episode is Johnny Depp versus Amber Heard, Part one. The plaintiff, Johnny Depp and Amber Heard met in 2009 on the set of the Rum Diary. At the time, Johnny was one of the most recognizable actors in the world, with decades of leading roles that had already cemented his place in Hollywood. Amber was in her early 20s, more than two decades younger and still building her resume. They both admitted there was instant chemistry. The two bonded over poetry, music, literature, and old Hollywood. They gave each other the nicknames Slim and Steve, a nod to Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall in To have and have Not. Like Bogart and Bacall's characters, Depp and Heard's relationship was intense, passionate and fast moving despite a significant age gap. They married in February of 2015, but by both of their accounts, the honeymoon phase didn't last long. It is undisputed that the marriage became volatile. Both Johnny Depp and Amber Heard acknowledged arguments, conflict and physical altercations. After just 15 months of marriage, Amber filed for divorce. Days later, she was photographed leaving a courthouse after obtaining a temporary restraining order against Johnny alleging abuse. The split was public, contentious, and closely followed by the media. Two years later, Amber landed her first major franchise role in Aquaman, a big budget superhero film set for worldwide release in December of 2018. Just days before the premiere, an op ed written by Amber was published in the Washington Post. The headline read, quote, I spoke up against sexual violence and faced our culture's wrath. That has to change. In the article, Amber wrote that two years earlier she had become a public figure representing domestic abuse, that she experienced the full force of a culture that punishes women who speak out and that she watched institutions protect men accused of abuse. Johnny Depp was not named, but Depp and his attorneys would later argue that the implication was unmistakable. Depp filed a lawsuit against amber heard for $50 million, alleging that her op ed falsely portrayed him as an abuser and caused devastating damage to his reputation and career. Six years after the marriage ended, the former couple found themselves Relying on seven jurors in a Fairfax County, Virginia, courtroom to decide what the law protects as speech and what it does not, based on the evidence and testimony presented. This is the plaintiff's story. Before a single witness was sworn, the jury was told exactly why they were there. From the outset, Johnny Depp's legal team framed this case not as a trial about marriage, but but as a defamation lawsuit rooted in the power of words. They explained that under the law, a person can be held responsible for the harm that results from a false statement when it is made publicly. Words matter. They paint pictures in our minds, evoke strong emotions, and when they're false, can cause irreparable damage to a person's image and reputation. According to the plaintiff, Johnny Depp, that damage was catastrophic. Johnny's attorneys told jurors that for nearly 30 years, he had built a reputation as a respected actor and artist. And that reputation, they said, was destroyed by three statements published in a Washington Post op ed written by his former wife. The jury was told that while Johnny's name was never printed, it didn't need to be. The implication was enough. According to the plaintiff, studios didn't want to be associated with abuse allegations or the backlash that followed. They distanced themselves. Roles disappeared, and his career suffered lasting harm. Johnny Depp told the jury he wasn't there for money. He was there, he said, because he had been publicly accused of things that never happened, and his reputation, his children, and his life were collateral damage. He told them he waited for years to speak, and now his silence had become impossible. The jurors were reminded that this trial wasn't about rehashing all the salacious moments of a failed marriage to determine who was right and who was wrong. They were there to hear the evidence and determine if Amber's statements about Johnny's abuse were, number one, true, number two, written with malice, and number three, caused harm to his reputation and career. With that framework in place, Johnny's team was ready to walk the jury through. The story they say explains how it all began, starting with the man at the center of it all. The first witness called by the plaintiff was Johnny Depp's sister, Christine Dembrowski. Through her testimony, jurors heard about Johnny's childhood, one marked by instability, violence, and fear. So Johnny learned early how to stay out of the line of fire. According to testimony, Johnny Depp and Christine Dombrowski's mother was physically and verbally abusive. Their father, whom Johnny described as a kind man, absorbed much of that abuse quietly. He rarely fought back at Most, he would punch a wall. Johnny's father left when Johnny was just 15. His departure triggered a crisis that included a suicide attempt by their mother, an event Johnny himself discovered. By then, Johnny had already left school and was working as a musician. According to the plaintiff, those early experiences shaped how Johnny handled conflict as an adult. He learned to retreat rather than retaliate, to leave rather than escalate. His sister's testimony framed that behavior not as a sign of weakness, but as a survival tactic. During his turbulent childhood, Johnny found refuge in music. He picked up a guitar at 12 years old, and by 20, he had moved to Los Angeles with his band, chasing a future he hoped would carry him far from the chaos he grew up in. When the band eventually fell apart, Depp found himself at a crossroads. Until his friend Nicolas Cage, still early in his own career, suggested another path. Cage encouraged Depp to meet with his agent and try acting. It led to an audition for the 1984 film A Nightmare on Elm street, and soon after, a starring role on the television series 21 Jump Street. When Depp was just 22 years old, acting was never the plan, but once it happened, he immersed himself in it. Reading, studying, working with acting coaches and approaching the craft with the same intensity he once gave to music. For the next two decades, Johnny landed iconic roles in films like Edward Scissorhands, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, what's Eating Gilbert Grape, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, and blow. But in 2002, Depp received a script that would change everything. He was cast as Captain Jack Sparrow in Pirates of the Caribbean. While he had already built a successful career, the Pirates films elevated him into a different stratosphere of fame, one that came with a his privacy. Soon after, fans were climbing the gates of his Los Angeles home. Even something as ordinary as getting a cup of coffee became impossible. And it was at the height of that fame, when Johnny Depp was one of the most recognizable actors in the world, that he met Amber Heard. Johnny testified that he and Amber first connected during the filming of the Rum Diary, though both were in other relationships at the time. He recalled a scene where they shared a kiss and said that in that moment, he felt something unexpected. Later that day, when filming wrapped, Amber came to his trailer. They listened to old blues music, drank wine, and shared another kiss. And that was the end of it. Until nearly two years later, when the press tour for the Rum Diary began. By that time, Depp had separated from the mother of his children after nearly 15 years, and Heard's relationship had also ended. So in 2011, Amber and Johnny began seeing each other. At first, the relationship felt perfect. Amber seemed attentive, loving, intelligent and funny. Almost too good to be true. For more than a year after they started dating, things were wonderful. But as the relationship deepened, cracks began to form. Arguments became more frequent. Jealousy surfaced. What once felt like passion began to feel unpredictable. The volatility had intensified. Disagreements escalated quickly. Small disruptions, like changes in routine or misunderstandings would trigger explosive reactions. Johnny described feeling belittled and dismissed, subjected to rapid fire insults, he felt he was not allowed to be right, not allowed to explain himself and not allowed to have a voice. Amber would even attack him on his parenting and interfere with his time with his children. And when things escalated, Johnny said he'd retreat just like he had as a child. He locked himself in bathrooms. He tried to get away. He tried to stop the escalation. But according to Johnny, his attempt to disengage with Amber was never an exit. It was a trigger.
- [13:30]
Podcast Host
This podcast is sponsored by IQ Bar.
- [13:33]
Will (IQ Bar Creator)
I've got good news and bad news. Here's the bad news. Most protein bars are packed with sugar and unpronounceable ingredients. The good news? There's a better option. I'm Will and I created IQ Bar Plant protein bars to empower doers like you with clean, delicious, low sugar, brain and body fuel. IQ bars are packed with 12 grams of protein, brain nutrients like magnesium and Lion's Mane, and Zero Weird Stuff. And right now, you can get 20% off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping. Try our delicious IQ Bar Sampler Pack with seven plant protein bars, four hydration mixes and four enhanced coffee sticks. Clean ingredients, amazing taste and you'll love how you feel. Refuel smarter, hydrate harder. Caffeinate larger with IQ Bar.
- [14:19]
Podcast Host
Go to eatiq bar.com and enter code BAR20. To get 20% off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping. Again, go to eatiq bar.com and Enter code BAR20.
- [14:36]
Brandi Churchwell (13th Juror Host)
Eventually, Depp testified that what began as arguments turned physical. He told the jury that he was slapped, shoved, had objects thrown at him like TV remotes, glasses of wine, and even pots and pans. He told the jury that he never struck Amber and that he tried to endure the violence without retaliation. And still he stayed. Johnny said it was partly because of fear. When he tried to leave, Amber would stop him crying, screaming, telling him she couldn't live without him. She had even mentioned suicide. For Johnny, the relationship had become something hauntingly familiar. As the volatility escalated, Johnny testified that arguments didn't just end. They vanished. Hateful words were spewed, lines were crossed. And then the next day, it was as if none of it had happened at all. At first, he chalked it all up to growing pains. They weren't even married yet. He believed they could work through it. But as the relationship deteriorated, Johnny told the jury that arguments began to follow a familiar cycle. Conflict would escalate, harsh things would be said, and by the next day, those moments would be minimized or denied entirely. Johnny said this cycle left him feeling disoriented. When he tried to talk about what had been said or done, he was often told it never happened or that he was exaggerating. Over time, he began to question his own memory of events. It was for that reason, he said, that he first began recording conversations in 2014. Johnny said his intention was not to trap or expose Amber, but to document what was happening in real time. According to Johnny, Amber initially agreed. The recordings, he said, were mutual and consensual, an attempt to hold up a mirror to the conflict and prevent it from being rewritten after the fact. Over time, he said, the nature of the recordings changed. Amber, he said, began recording him without his knowledge. Some of the recordings the jury later heard were made secretly, capturing fragments of conversations, often after arguments had already escalated. According to Depp, what was meant to preserve reality and improve communication became something else entirely. In one recording, Johnny confronts Amber about being physical the night before, kicking him, and becoming violent. She apologizes, but says she was on Ambien and doesn't remember. In another, she acknowledges throwing pots and pans at him, but insists that that was no excuse for him to leave when things became heated. Across multiple recordings, the jury heard Amber acknowledge that Johnny tried to leave or go to another room during arguments. Behavior, she said, only made things worse because it was not what she wanted. She wanted him to stay. She wanted him to fight. This pattern, Amber wanting the confrontation to continue and Johnny trying to escape it became a recurring theme throughout the recordings. On the stand, he described multiple instances where he felt Amber was determined to fight and he was determined to avoid it. One of the earliest examples he gave occurred in May of 2014 during a private flight. Johnny told jurors he sensed an argument building and made a deliberate choice to remove himself from the situation. He locked himself in the bathroom and lay on the floor. Not to hide, he said, but to keep the confrontation from turning into something worse. The jury also heard Johnny describe his roxycodone detox in the Bahamas the following month, which he testified was marked by severe physical withdrawal. And desperation. He said he begged Amber for medication intended to stop the symptoms, but she refused, a moment he described as leaving him feeling helpless and humiliated. Johnny never denied his long history with substance use, including the opioid addiction he testified began after an injury on a film set. But he told the jury that Amber routinely exaggerated those struggles and weaponized them, both during arguments and later, he said, as part of her public narrative. And then, in one of the most talked about recordings of the entire trial, the jury heard Amber openly acknowledge hitting Johnny before mocking him for how he reacted.
- [18:52]
Johnny Depp
And I watched you lie, and then.
- [18:54]
Brandi Churchwell (13th Juror Host)
I didn't punch you, by the way.
- [18:55]
Amber Heard
I'm sorry that I didn't hit you across the face in a proper slap, but I was hitting you. I was not punching you, babe. You're not punched.
- [19:05]
Johnny Depp
Don't tell me what a view feels like to be punched.
- [19:07]
Amber Heard
You know, even a lot of fights been around a long time. I know. Yeah, you didn't get punched. You got hit. I'm sorry I hit you like this, but I did not punch you. I did not deck you. I was hitting you.
- [19:21]
Security Guard / Friend
I don't know what the motion of.
- [19:23]
Amber Heard
My actual hand was, but you're fine. I did not hurt you. I did not punch you. I was hitting you.
- [19:29]
Johnny Depp
How are you?
- [19:30]
Brandi Churchwell (13th Juror Host)
How.
- [19:30]
Amber Heard
What am I supposed to do? Do this.
- [19:32]
Security Guard / Friend
I'm not sitting here bitching about it, am I?
- [19:34]
Brandi Churchwell (13th Juror Host)
You are.
- [19:35]
Amber Heard
That's the difference between me and you. You're a baby because you started.
- [19:39]
Security Guard / Friend
You are such a baby. Grow the up, Johnny.
- [19:42]
Johnny Depp
I started physical fights.
- [19:44]
Amber Heard
I did start a physical fight.
- [19:45]
Will (IQ Bar Creator)
Yeah, you did.
- [19:46]
Johnny Depp
So I had to get the fuck out of there.
- [19:47]
Amber Heard
Yes, you did. So you did the right thing, the big thing. You know what?
- [19:51]
Security Guard / Friend
You are admirable.
- [19:52]
Brandi Churchwell (13th Juror Host)
For the plaintiff's case, this moment where Amber could be heard as the aggressor minimizing the violence and rapid ridiculing Depp on the receiving end was critical. According to Johnny, that recording stood in stark contrast to Amber's public image that would later follow, one of victimhood and advocacy built on allegations that he says were never true. Still, Johnny believed they could make it work. In February of 2015, they married, first in a private civil ceremony at home, then days later in the Bahamas with friends and family. What should have been the happiest time of their lives became the start of the darkest period of their relationship. Just weeks later, In March of 2015, Amber flew to Australia to join Johnny on location as he filmed Pirates of the Caribbean. According to Johnny, tensions were already high when he raised the Idea of a post nuptial agreement. They hadn't had time for a prenup and he wanted something in place. Amber met with Johnny's attorney and didn't like the terms, saying she didn't believe that it was coming from Johnny. But when the lawyer laughed and said Johnny had seen everything, Depp testified that Amber became enraged and the argument spiraled out of control. Johnny told the jury that Amber began throwing objects as the fight escalated once again. He claimed that he tried to remove himself, locking himself in bedrooms and bathrooms while she banged on the doors, screamed obscenities and demanded a confrontation. He said he was berated, accused of trying to leave her with nothing, and called degrading names. Eventually, as he was sitting alone on a bathroom floor, the banging stopped. Johnny testified that he waited on the bathroom floor until he could hear Amber walking away, shaking and emotionally wrecked. He opened the door and went downstairs to the bar area. He poured himself a shot of vodka and drank for the first time in more than 18 months. That moment of quiet did not last. Johnny testified that Amber found him and exploded, screaming at him for drinking. He said he didn't understand the reaction. He acknowledged his opioid addiction, but told the jury that alcohol had never been his issue. According to Johnny, Amber began grabbing bottles from the bar and throwing them at him.
- [22:13]
Ashley Flowers
Him.
- [22:13]
Brandi Churchwell (13th Juror Host)
During the chaos, his finger was severely injured, severed at the tip. He testified that he looked down and could see bone as blood poured out. Johnny told the jury he suffered a full nervous breakdown, writing on the walls with his own blood before texting his doctor that he had cut his finger off and needed help. Doctors treated him that night, and staff who arrived later described extensive damage throughout the house, broken items and destruction consistent with a violent scene. For Johnny Depp, Australia became a turning point. Evidence, he said, that he was the one injured and he was the one trying to survive the violence. By April of 2016, Johnny testified that the relationship had reached its breaking point. On Amber's birthday, he arrived to her party more than an hour and a half late after a meeting with his accountants ran long. When the guests left, he said, Amber began what he described as a familiar verbal barrage, listing his failures, calling him unreliable and tearing him down. Johnny testified that he lay there reading a book, refusing to engage. When she did not get the reaction she wanted, he said the argument turned physical. Johnny testified that Amber began hitting him. His face, his head, his neck. He told the jury he finally had enough. He grabbed her by the shoulders, set her down on the bed and told her he was Leaving, Amber blocked the doorway, squaring off with him. Johnny asked what she wanted. Did she want to hit him again? According to his testimony, she did. She hit him twice. Johnny said that was it. He grabbed her by the shoulders once more, walked her back to the bed, sat her down, and left. The next morning, Johnny's bodyguard, Starling Jenkins, arrived at the penthouse. Jenkins told the jury that Amber described the altercation to him and admitted that she had thrown Johnny's belongings over the balcony and onto the street below. His clothes, his wallet and credit cards, his passport, and even his cell phone. Jenkins testified that he had used Find My iPhone to track the missing phone, which by that point had traveled more than six miles away to LA's skid row. Jenkins located a homeless man who had the phone and offered him a reward for its return. Amber left for Coachella later that day, knowing she would be gone for several days. Johnny testified that he believed it would be the safest time to return to the penthouse and collect some of his belongings, especially items connected to his children and things of sentimental value. But when he told another member of his security team about his plan, he was warned not to go. Johnny testified that he didn't understand why until he was sent a photograph explaining it. In the image, Johnny said he saw something he described as absurd, grotesque and cruel. Lying on the bed was human feces. Jenkins told the jury that Amber admitted she had left it there, referring to it as a surprise, and described it as a practical joke that had gone horribly wrong. Johnny did not return to the penthouse that day, and he did not see Amber again for nearly a month. On May 20, 2016, Johnny's mother died. Their relationship had been painful and complicated, but her death brought a moment of clarity. Johnny testified that he forgave her and in doing so, realized something else. Sometimes, no matter how hard you try, a relationship cannot be saved. It was then he said that he knew things would never get better with Amber. Johnny called Amber that day and said he planned to file for divorce, but he wanted to do it civilly. He told Amber he wasn't going to cite any violence or irreconcilable differences. In fact, he wanted to announce it as mutual and that they were ending this in love. Amber asked him to come talk the next day so she could explain things. So Johnny agreed, planning to gather some belongings. While there, Johnny believed there was nothing left to argue about and thought that Amber would also agree that this was what was best for both of them. Still aware of how quickly things could escalate, he asked Two members of his security, Sean Bett and Jerry Judge, to stay close, keep the door unlocked and come in immediately if they heard any screaming. What happened next would become one of the most contested moments of the case and triggered a series of events that led to the allegations, media involvement, and eventually the op ed security guard. Bet testified that when he and Judge first walked into the penthouse with Johnny, Amber had candles lit with glasses of wine on the counter and music playing on the speakers. Feeling like they needed to give some privacy, Bette and Judge left and went down the hall to grab a drink from the room designated for security personnel. Johnny told the jury he walked over to the couch where Amber was sitting, and almost immediately she brought up the fecal matter that had been left on his pillow. He testified that Amber denied responsibility and blamed their dogs, something he said made no sense, given that their teacup Yorkies weighed only four pounds. And what he found was not consistent with that explanation. Besides, Johnny said he had already been told by their house manager, Kevin Murphy, that he had had a conversation with Amber about the incident. So Johnny decided to call Murphy. But when Murphy confirmed on the phone what Amber had admitted to him, Johnny said Amber became enraged, yelling obscenities and calling Murphy a liar. Johnny said he'd had enough. He hung up the phone and told Amber not to disrespect Murphy in that way. He said he then went upstairs to gather some of his belongings, and when he came back down, Amber had called her friend IO Tillett Wright. Seemingly wanting her own backup on the situation, Amber wanted IO to confirm her story that the feces on the bed was from the dogs. According to Johnny, Amber and IO were laughing about the situation, amused by Johnny insisting the feces had come from a person. Johnny, emotionally exhausted from a brutal few days, said he didn't feel like he deserved that treatment. He walked over, took the phone and told IO you can have her now. She's yours. She's all yours, he said. He then tossed the phone onto the couch and headed for the door, intending to leave. Leave. Around that time, Amber's friend Raquel Pennington ran in. Raquel was living in one of Johnny's other penthouses in the building, and Amber had texted her to come over. She came in and ran over toward Amber. Johnny said he was roughly 20ft away from Amber when suddenly Amber began yelling, Stop hitting me, Johnny. Stop hitting me. Johnny said. He froze. He was across the room. He hadn't touched her. Raquel even told the jury when she walked in, Johnny was standing at the edge of the kitchen, and Amber was standing on the other side of the living room. And she never saw Johnny touch Amber. Around that time, Bette and judge were heading back toward the penthouse. And as they approached in the hallway, they heard the shouting. Bette told the jury he could hear Amber screaming and yelling obscenities, so they opened the door and ran in. When they entered, Bet said he immediately saw Johnny standing in front of them. And when they walked around the corner, they then saw Amber standing in the living room. Johnny and Bette both told the jury that Amber appeared surprised to see the two security guards come rushing in. Amber paused. Then she looked at Johnny and said, that's the last time you'll ever hit me. Judge suggested to Johnny it was time to leave. So they did. IO, who had been on the phone with Amber during the incident, had hung up and dialed 911. When police arrived, Amber told them everything was fine. Officers later testified they did not observe any injuries. Security personnel who were present, including bet, echoed that account, saying they did not see any visible injuries. In the days that followed, Amber filed for divorce and then appeared in court seeking a temporary protective order. As she exited the courthouse, cameras were already waiting. Photographs of Amber showing what appeared to be a mark on her face were published almost immediately and spread across tabloids and social media, including coverage by tmz. According to Johnny, this was no coincidence. He told the jury he believed the timing was intentional, that the appearance, the images, and the publicity were designed to damage him publicly at a moment when he had no opportunity to respond because he was out of town for work. Johnny's attorneys further argued that the injury shown did not align with what police officers and others observed just days earlier, and that the bruise itself was exaggerated or fabricated to support a narrative he said was already taking shape. A temporary restraining order was granted, and in the paperwork supporting it, Amber told a very different story from the one Johnny had just describ described in those documents. Heard alleged that Johnny ripped her cell phone from her hand, screamed profanities at her friend, and then wound the phone up, quote, like a baseball before throwing it at her, striking her on the cheek with great force. She claimed he then pulled her hair as she tried to stand from the couch and began violently grabbing her face and striking her. Until this man moment, Johnny Depp had never before been accused by a romantic partner of physical abuse. The media reaction was immediate. Headlines exploded. Speculation flooded social media. This was no longer a standard story about a divorce. It was about abuse and about what had supposedly been happening behind closed doors. For years. At the same time, Johnny testified, he was unraveling. His mother had just died, his marriage had collapsed, and now allegations of violence were dominating headlines. Allegations he said were deeply painful, not just to him, but to his children. Still, he was on tour with his band, trying to function day by day. Two months later, in July, Johnny received a call from his agent. Amber wanted to meet. He was confused. She was the one who had asked the court to keep him away. But Johnny testified that he believed, or maybe hoped, she wanted to talk about correcting the record, about pulling back the false allegations the world had now accepted as truth. They met in San Francisco, and the conversation did not go the way Johnny hoped. But it was recorded on the tape, which was played in court. The jury heard Amber tell Johnny she was worried about her own reputation. She said she didn't know how to get it back. Johnny offered a solution. He suggested they issue a joint statement, saying they loved each other, that the media had created a hateful storm, and that they wanted to protect one another. But Amber returned to the same concern, her credibility. Johnny asked her a simple question, quote, then why did you put that out there? Why would Amber fake the bruise on her face if she knew it would leave people questioning her credibility? According to the plaintiff, her answer revealed everything. She said Johnny's team had forced her hand, that they went on the offensive first. She spoke of it as strategy, as leverage, as a game of who had the upper hand in the divorce. As the recording continued, Amber said things between them had gotten so bad that she thought she might lose her life, that Johnny might do something by accident. Johnny sounded exhausted. He reminded her that he was the one who lost a finger, that she was the one who threw the bottle. And then Amber said something that revealed her awareness of perception, of power, and of how allegations like these often land in the real world. This is the recording the jury heard.
- [34:30]
Will (IQ Bar Creator)
Amber.
- [34:30]
Johnny Depp
I lost a finger, man.
- [34:32]
Will (IQ Bar Creator)
Come on.
- [34:35]
Johnny Depp
I had a. I had a fucking.
- [34:37]
Will (IQ Bar Creator)
A mineral.
- [34:38]
Johnny Depp
A jar of a can of mineral spirits thrown on my nose.
- [34:41]
Security Guard / Friend
I mean, you can please tell people that it was a fair fight and see what the. See what the jury and judge think. Tell the world, Johnny. Tell them. Johnny Depp. I. Johnny Depp, man. I'm a victim to messaging, and I know it's a fair fight and see how these people believe or side with you.
- [35:00]
Brandi Churchwell (13th Juror Host)
According to Johnny, this single exchange is the heart of this case. In this moment, he says he is naming something out loud, that he is the one being hurt, that he is the one trying to survive the Conflict. From the plaintiff's perspective, the the response he receives is mocking. He's challenged to speak publicly, challenged to claim victimhood, challenged to see who would believe him. Johnny Depp is not asking the jury to believe this relationship was peaceful. Depp argued that the violence did not flow in the direction the public was told it did. And if that is true, then the implication that Johnny Depp was an abuser protected by institutions is not just wrong, it is devastatingly false. By August of 2016, Johnny Depp and Amber Heard reached a divorce settlement, bringing a volatile and very public marriage to a legal close. For a time, Johnny stayed silent. But two years later, in December of 2018, Amber Heard published the op ed in the Washington Post, writing that she had become a public figure representing domestic abus abuse, describing the backlash she faced for speaking out about sexual violence and asserting that institutions protect men accused of abuse. Johnny testified that he could no longer remain silent as the allegations, which he said were false, continued to damage his career and personal life. Over the course of the trial, the jury heard testimony the plaintiff argued supported that claim. They heard from people who were present during the relationship. Friends, security personnel, medical professionals, and a marriage counselor who described Amber as the aggressor during conflicts. Witnesses confirmed that Heard often became enraged when Depp tried to leave and that hotel staff and security would routinely book extra rooms so Johnny had somewhere to go. When arguments escalated, they heard testimony that contradicted Amber's claims of visible injuries. People who saw her shortly after alleged incidents and said they did not observe bruises or marks. They heard that the only serious documented injury during the marriage was Johnny Depp's when the tip of his finger was severed in Australia. The marriage counselor testified that Heard admitted to initiating physical violence and that she escalated conflict to prevent Depp from leaving. And once Johnny finally did leave, they argued, that's when Amber attempted to shift the narrative, presenting herself publicly as someone speaking out about abuse and later tying her story to the broader MeToo movement. He testified that many of the most serious allegations surfaced only after the op ed and the legal battle began. To show the damage those words caused. The jury also heard testimony about reputational and economic harm. Industry witnesses described how allegations of abuse, especially when framed as fact, can end careers overnight. According to the plaintiff, that harm was real, foreseeable and irreversible. And because of all of that, Johnny Depp asked the jury to do one thing to find that the statements in the op ed were not true, that they portrayed him as an abuser. He says he was not and that the cost of those words to his career, his family and his life was devastating. At the end of Johnny's four day testimony, when asked what he had lost due to Heard's op ed in the post, Depp says, quote, nothing less than everything. Next week our focus shifts to Amber Heard and her point of view will have you looking at the abuse in a completely different light. Amber says she didn't come to argue every allegation. She came to explain why, why she spoke at all and why she believes her statements are protected. She says the words that sparked this trial were true and that she has more than just recordings to prove it. Thirteenth Juror is an Audio Chuck production hosted by Brandi Churchwell. Ashley Flowers is Executive producer. You can follow 13th Juror on Instagram @13th JurorPodcast. I think Chuck would approve.
- [39:35]
Ashley Flowers
For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet. But not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers and me and my team on the Deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to the Deck now. Wherever you get your podcasts.