← 13th Juror Podcast
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- [00:01]
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- [00:32]
Brandi Churchwell
Just after lunchtime on September 10, 2025, chaos erupted on the campus of Utah Valley University in Orem, Utah. Charlie Kirk, one of the country's most recognizable conservative political activists and the founder of Turning Point usa, was addressing a large outdoor crowd of students when a single gunshot rang out. The attack sent students running for cover. Law enforcement flooded the campus. News alerts spread across the country as people searched for answers. That afternoon, before investigators had even released many details publicly, President Donald Trump confirmed what millions feared. Charlie Kirk had died from his injuries. Within hours, the assassination became one of the biggest news stories in the world. Politicians from both parties issued statements. Supporters mourned. Critics warned that political violence in America had reached another alarming milestone. But while the public asik watched the headline unfold, investigators began asking a much different question. Who was responsible? And was this an act of spontaneous violence or something planned long before that day? Investigators wouldn't have to wait long for that answer. In an FBI news conference on the morning of September 12, Utah Governor Spencer Cox announced to the crowd, we got him. Almost as quickly as the news spread, so did the speculation. People began dissecting grainy surveillance clips frame by frame. Screenshots flooded social media. Amateur investigators searched for inconsistencies, questioned the timeline, and debated whether authorities had identified the right suspect. Before long, conspiracy theories were everywhere. But social media isn't a courtroom. And this week, for the first time, investigators were required to testify under oath. Evidence wasn't presented through viral posts or edited clips. It was introduced exhibit by exhibit, challenged by the defense, and scrutinized in open court. We were also shown evidence that has been sealed from the public until now. For five days in a Utah courtroom, prosecutors laid out the evidence against the man that they say carried out one of the most closely watched political assassinations in recent memory, 22 year old Tyler Robinson. This is the 13 juror podcast where we explore the trials, investigations and true crime stories that everyone is talking about. From high profile trials to the crimes that still leave questions unanswered we break down the facts, the evidence and the arguments shaping each story. I'm your host, Brandi Churchwell. Today's episode is the Charlie Kirk assassination, Utah versus Tyler Robinson. To understand why this case became a story that captured attention around the world, we first have to go back to where it all began, with 31 year old Charlie Kirk. Charlie grew up in the suburbs of Chicago in a conservative family where politics was a regular part of life. Even as a kid, Charlie seemed drawn to leadership and public service and began getting involved in politics when he was still in high school. At 16 years old, he volunteered during a Republican Senate campaign and even organized a student protest over a price increase for cookies school sold in his school's lunchroom. Then, at just 17 years old, Charlie wrote an opinion piece for a conservative news outlet criticizing what he believed was a liberal bias in his high school economics textbooks. The article quickly gained attention and landed him an appearance on Fox News. It was his first taste of a national audience. It quickly became clear that Charlie wasn't interested in simply talking about politics. He wanted to influence it. While most people his age were figuring out what they wanted to do with their lives, Charlie was already building a platform and developing a vision to encourage young people to become more involved in the political process. That drive would eventually lead him to create one of the most influential conservative youth organizations in the country, turning him into a well known political commentator, speaker and activist with millions of followers and supporters. By the time this story begins, Charlie Kirk was no longer just an activist from Illinois. He had become one of the most recognizable and polarizing voices in American conservative politics. As Turning Point USA continued to grow, Charlie became its most recognizable face. He spent much of his time traveling to college campuses across the country, giving speeches and inviting students to challenge his views during open question and answer sessions. Those often turned into spirited debates over issues like free speech, immigration, abortion, gun rights, gender identity and the role of government. Many of those exchanges were filmed and shared online, where they frequently went viral. At the heart of Charlie's message was a belief in conservative principles such as limited government, free market capitalism, individual responsibility, strong border security, support for law enforcement and the military, and protecting free speech, particularly on college campuses where he argued, conservative voices were often silenced. In 2025, Turning Point USA announced what it called the American Comeback Tour, a 14 city campus tour focused on engaging students in conversations about those issues. The first stop was scheduled for September 10th and at Utah Valley University. The event was scheduled to begin around noon in the fountain courtyard on campus. The courtyard resembled A small amphitheater with students gathered on the different tiers overlooking the space below. At the center of it all, Charlie sat beneath a tent branded with the name of the tour, the American Comeback. Across the front of the tent were words Prove me Wrong, a phrase that had become synonymous with his campus events, inviting students to challenge his views in open debate. An estimated 3,000 people had gathered to watch. Seated in a chair beneath the tent with a handheld microphone, Charlie answered questions from audience members one by one. The atmosphere was energetic but orderly, the kind of event he had held countless times before. Then, as Charlie was responding to a question about gun violence, a single gunshot echoed across the courtyard. As the shot rang out, Charlie immediately lurched forward and to his left. For just a split second, there was silence. Then panic took over. Spanish Fort police officer Chris Bagley testified that everyone around him jumped up and started running. The courtyard erupted into chaos as thousands of people scrambled to get away from the sound of gunfire. Video captured the frantic moments that followed. Six men rushed to Charlie's side, lifted him from his chair, and carried him to a waiting suv. The vehicle sped away, taking him to a nearby hospital. Officer Bagley, meanwhile, had a different mission. The instant he heard the shot, he ran toward the direction he believed it had come from. The crowd was pouring in the opposite direction, forcing him to jump over people who had dropped onto the stairs in an attempt to protect themselves. His focus was finding the shooter before anyone else could be hurt. But within minutes, a radio transmission came across. The suspect was already in custody. Believing the immediate threat had been eliminated, Officer Bagley shifted his attention to helping the injured and preserving the crime scene. As he scanned the courtyard, something caught his eye. An empty pistol holder lying on the ground. He walked over and looked at it for a moment, but something didn't fit, because based on what he had heard, he didn't believe the shot had come from a handgun. It sounded like a rifle. And that's when he looked up. Directly in line with the spot where Charlie had been sitting was the roof of the Losee Building. From that vantage point, there was a clear, unobstructed view of the courtyard below. Officer Bagley immediately headed toward the building. Climbing four flights of exterior stairs, he stepped over the low concrete wall onto the roof and walked out toward the corner overlooking the courtyard. Almost immediately, he knew something was out of place. About 10 to 15ft from where he stepped onto the roof, Officer Bagley noticed a black and red screwdriver lying on the gravel. By itself, it didn't seem especially significant. But as he continued toward the corner overlooking the courtyard. And something else caught his attention. The gravel looked disturbed. When he got closer, he could make out distinct impressions in the rock marks where someone had been kneeling, along with the outlines of feet and elbows pressed into the rooftop. It was what investigators refer to as a sniper's pad. From that exact spot, there was a direct line of sight to the chair where Charlie Kirk had been sitting just moments earlier. In that instant, Officer Bagley realized something wasn't adding up. The evidence on the roof didn't match what he had been told over the radio, and he immediately knew that the wrong man had been taken into custody. We'll be right back.
- [10:27]
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- [11:06]
Brandi Churchwell
In the immediate aftermath of the shooting, a 71 year old man named George Zinn walked up to a police officer and began shouting, I shot him. Now shoot me. The officer didn't see a weapon in Zinn's hands, but he immediately placed him in handcuffs and took him into custody. When asked where the gun was, Zinn refused to say. As officers detained him, dispatch broadcast over the radio that the shooter had been apprehended. Zinn was taken to the campus police department, where he continued insisting that he was the one who had shot Charlie Kirk, repeatedly asking officers to simply shoot him. Then everything changed. According to court records, Zinn asked for an attorney, but before detectives even began questioning him, he admitted that he had not actually fired the shot. Instead, he claimed that he had falsely confessed to so that he could draw attention to himself and away from the real shooter. He was later charged with obstruction of justice in connection with a capital or first degree felony investigation, which is a second degree felony under Utah law. By then, Officer Chris Bagley's instincts had already led him in a very different direction. Zinn had been standing much closer to the stage, but Bagley was convinced that the gunshot had come from the east. Trusting what he had heard, he followed that instinct to the roof of the Losee building, where he found that unmistakable evidence that someone had been positioned there just minutes before Charlie Kirk was shot. Meanwhile, Utah Valley University was placed on lockdown. As law enforcement worked to secure the campus and determine whether there was still an active threat, News of the shooting spread almost instantly. Messages of shock, prayers and support flooded social media. Political leaders from across the country, including Senator Mike Lee and President Donald Trump, publicly expressed their hopes that Charlie would survive. But despite the efforts of emergency responders and hospital staff, Charlie Kirk died from his injuries. He was just 31 years old. With Charlie's death, what had begun as an attempted assassination was now a capital murder investigation. The Utah State Bureau of Investigation joined the local agencies to help identify the person responsible. Investigators immediately began collecting surveillance footage from cameras positioned across the UVU campus. They hoped that the videos would reveal who had been on the roof of the Losee Building at the time of the shooting. And then they found him. The footage showed a white male making his way onto the roof at approximately 12:15pm he was wearing a black long sleeve shirt, jeans, gray sneakers, and a hat. After climbing over the short concrete wall surrounding the roof, he briefly crouched down before moving quickly toward the edge of the building, the same location where Officer Chris Bagley had found what appeared to be a Sniper's firing position. Seven minutes later, at 12:22pm A single shot was fired. Within seconds, the man was seen sprinting across the rooftop to the opposite side of the building. He dropped from the roof onto the grass below, landing on his feet while carrying an object in his hand. The video wasn't clear enough to determine exactly what he was holding, but he ran across the lawn, cross a sidewalk, and disappeared into a wooded area just across the street from campus. Investigators finally had something they hadn't had just moments before. A clear suspect. Now the question was, who was he? Detectives began pulling footage from every camera they could find, carefully retracing his path both before and after the shooting. They needed to answer three critical questions. Where had he come from? Where had he gone? And most importantly, who was he? The investigation quickly became a joint effort involving the FBI, the Utah State Bureau of Investigation, and multiple local law enforcement agencies. Detectives began pulling surveillance footage from every camera they could find, trying to retrace the shooter's path before and after the attack. The video showed the suspect making his way to the roof of the LOSI building just minutes before the shooting. After firing a single shot, he ran across the rooftop, dropped to the ground on the opposite side of the building, and disappeared into a wooded area across the street from campus. Investigators followed that route on foot. Hidden beneath a bush wrapped inside a towel, they found a rifle and it wasn't what most people would expect. The weapon was a bolt action Mauser 98 chambered in. 3006 Springfield, a rifle with roots stretching back more than a century. Originally designed for the German military, variants of the Mauser 98 were used during both world wars. Many eventually made their way back to the United States as war trophies after American soldiers returned home. Because rifles from that era predate the federal serial number requirements established after President John F. Kennedy's assassination, tracing their history can be far more difficult than tracing a modern firearm. Inside the rifle, investigators found one spent cartridge and three live rounds. Now that immediately stood out. Investigators hadn't found a shell casing on the rooftop. The which was consistent with a bolt action rifle. Unlike a semi automatic firearm that ejects a spent casing when fired, a bolt action rifle retains the casing until the shooter manually cycles the bolt. Only one shot had been fired and only one spent cartridge remained in the rifle. Then investigators noticed something even more unusual. Now each of the four cartridges had words etched into the brass. One of them read hey fascist catch. Another read oh bella chow, bella chow, bella chow chow chow. Which is a reference to the Italian anti fascist folk song bella chow. A third said, if you read this you are gay. Lmao. And the fourth, the cartridge that investigators believe had been fired contained the inscription notices bulge O wo what's this? That is a reference to a meme that is commonly associated with certain online communities. Now investigators believe that they now had recovered the murder weapon and reconstructed the shooter's movements throughout the day and identified the location from which the fatal shot had been fired. But what they still didn't know was the identity of the person behind it all. The next day, Thursday, September 11th, the FBI released surveillance photographs of the suspect taken just minutes before the shooting. They announced a $100,000 reward for information leading to his identification and arrest. Later that evening, investigators released additional photographs and previously unseen surveillance video footage. During a press conference. About 30 minutes after the FBI released those photos, Utah State Bureau of Investigation Special agent Brian Davis received a phone call. He was told to come immediately to St. George. A man named Tyler Robinson was on his way to turn himself in. It was the first time that Agent Davis had ever heard that name. We'll be right back.
- [18:50]
Prosecutor
Hey everybody.
- [18:50]
Brandi Churchwell
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- [19:14]
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- [19:28]
Prosecutor
Good morning ladies and gentlemen. We got him. On the evening of September 11, a family member of Tyler Robinson reached out to a family friend who contacted the Washington County Sheriff's Office with information that Robinson had confessed to them or implied that he had committed the incident. Investigators interviewed a family member of Robinson who stated that Robinson had become more political in recent years. The family member referenced a recent incident in which Robinson came to dinner prior to September 10th and in the conversation with another family member, Robinson mentioned Charlie Kirk was coming to uvu. They talked about why they didn't like him and the viewpoints that he had. The family member also stated Kirk was full of hate and spreading hate.
- [20:17]
Brandi Churchwell
That was Utah Governor Spencer Cox addressing the public during the September 12th press conference. Immediately after Governor Cox spoke, FBI Director Cash Patel took the podium. Patel praised the cooperation between the FBI, the Utah State Bureau of Investigation and local law enforcement agencies that had worked around the clock on the case. He also thanked the public, saying that investigators had received more than 11,000 tips and leads in less than two days. And finally, Patel turned his attention toward Charlie Kirk.
- [20:51]
Prosecutor
To my friend Charlie Kirk.
- [20:54]
Brandi Churchwell
Rest now brother.
- [20:55]
Prosecutor
We have the watch and I'll see you in Valhalla.
- [21:01]
Brandi Churchwell
Once investigators knew they were dealing with Tyler Robinson, they went back through every surveillance camera they could find to verify his movements that day. What they discovered was something they hadn't realized at first. Tyler hadn't simply arrived, fired a shot and then left. He had visited the Utah Valley University campus multiple times that morning.
- [21:22]
Prosecutor
Investigators reviewed additional video footage from UVU surveillance and identified Robinson arriving on UVU campus in a gray Dodge Challenger at approximately 8:29am on September 10, in which he is observed on video in a plain maroon T shirt, light colored shorts, a black hat with a white logo and light colored shoes.
- [21:45]
Brandi Churchwell
His first Visit began around 8:30 that morning. He was on campus for about an hour before returning to his car and driving away shortly after 9:30am Now, a little over half an hour later, he was back. This time he arrived on foot, still wearing the maroon shirt, shorts, a hat and the same gray Converse shoes. Investigators watched as he walked through the parking garage, made his way to the Chick Fil A near the courtyard and had his lunch. Now, just before 11am cameras showed him leaving campus and walking across the street into A wooded area along Campus Drive. Then came the third visit. Less than an hour later, the man emerged from that same wooded area. But now his appearance had changed. The maroon T shirt and shorts were gone. In their place were jeans and a black long sleeve shirt. He was still wearing the same gray Converse sneakers and wearing the same hat. But investigators noticed something else. He was walking with a noticeable limp. Surveillance videos showed him keeping his right leg unusually straight as he walked, even while climbing the stairs. Cameras followed him all the way to the rooftop of the Losee building. And minutes later, around 12:22pm Charlie Kirk was shot. Investigators would later discover that there had actually been one more visit to campus that day. Around 12:30 that night, roughly 12 hours after the shooting, surveillance cameras captured a gray Dodge Challenger approaching the entrance to the campus parking area. By then, Utah Valley University remained locked down as investigators continued processing the crime scene. Unable to enter, the driver stopped and spoke with an officer stationed at the entrance, who explained that the campus was closed and no one was being allowed inside the car, then drove away. At the time, it seemed like an unusual encounter. Something about it struck the officer as odd. So before the vehicle disappeared, he wrote down the license plate number just in case. That small decision would later prove significant, because when investigators checked the registration, the plate came back to Tyler Robinson. During the September 12th press conference, Governor Spencer Cox confirmed that investigators had recovered additional surveillance footage from that night. And he also revealed that when Tyler Robinson turned himself in, he was wearing clothing consistent with what investigators had seen in those videos.
- [24:15]
Prosecutor
When encountered in person by investigators in Washington county on September 12, in the early morning hours, Robinson was observed in consistent clothing with those surveillance images.
- [24:26]
Brandi Churchwell
After the September 12 press conference, many people believed investigators had answered the biggest question in this case. They had a suspect. And according to investigators, Tyler Robinson had turned himself in after confessing to a family member. Surveillance footage placed him on campus throughout the day. His vehicle had been identified, and investigators said they had recovered what they believed was the murder weapon, and they had announced criminal charges. But online, a very different story was beginning to take shape. Almost immediately, people began dissecting every piece of evidence that had been released to the public. Surveillance videos were slowed down frame by frame. Photographs were enlarged and compared, and questions were raised about the timeline, the rifle, the surveillance footage, and whether investigators actually had the right person. One of the most influential voices fueling that conversation was conservative commentator Candace Owens. Candice said she wasn't convinced that investigators had identified the correct shooter. Across multiple videos and social media posts, she argued that there were too Many unanswered questions, and too many inconsistencies for her to accept the official narrative at face value. Among the issues she focused on were the surveillance footage, the timeline of events, the distance of the shot, and whether Tyler Robinson physically matched the person seen on camera. She also questioned whether Tyler had the experience necessary to make the shot investigators say that he made, and argued that some of the evidence released publicly appeared to raise more questions than answers. Candace encouraged her audience to examine the evidence for themselves. Rather than simply accepting the government's version of events, she maintained that the investigation deserved much closer scrutiny. Her videos reached millions of people. And before long, discussions about Charlie Kirk's murder weren't just happening in courtrooms or police briefings. They were unfolding across YouTube and X TikTok and other social media platforms. Claims that the wrong person had been arrested, that there had been a second shooter, or that investigators were withholding evidence spread rapidly online. Some of the most widely shared theories claimed that Charlie's assassination had been orchestrated by Israel, by officials within Turning Point usa, or even by Charlie's widow, Erica. Others argued that Charlie hadn't been killed by a bullet at all, but by a microphone that had somehow been rigged to explode. In a recent interview, Candice Owens went even further, saying she didn't believe Tyler Robinson was even present on campus when the shooting occurred. Now, whether those theories had merit would ultimately be tested in court. The preliminary hearing wasn't designed to decide whether Tyler Robinson was guilty or innocent. Instead, its purpose was much narrower, to determine whether prosecutors had presented enough evidence to establish probable cause and move the case to trial. That's a much lower legal standard than proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And over the course of five days, prosecutors would present witness testimony, surveillance footage, forensic evidence, and the results of their investigation. Tyler Robinson's defense team would have the opportunity to challenge that evidence. And at the end of the hearing, the judge would decide whether the case should continue to a jury trial or be dismissed altogether. Because investigators had released relatively little evidence publicly, and because conspiracy theories had spread so widely online, the hearing became one of the most anticipated proceedings in the case. For the first time, much of the evidence that had fueled months of speculation would be presented under oath in open court. But would it be enough? Was the evidence presented during those five days enough to quiet the speculation? Enough to answer the questions that had dominated social media? Enough to put the conspiracy theories to rest? As always, my goal isn't to tell you what to believe. It's to present the evidence so that you can be the 13th juror and decide whether the evidence answers the questions or leaves you with new ones. We'll be right back.
- [28:47]
Prosecutor
Hey everybody.
- [28:48]
Brandi Churchwell
Lady luck here and we're celebrating America's 250th birthday. Now all summer long I'm going to be celebrating by playing on spinquest.com which is an American owned social casino. It obviously features over a thousand slot games and live blackjack, live craps, live bubble craps. Head on over to spinquest.com get yourself a 30 coin pack for just 10 bucks.
- [29:12]
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- [29:26]
Brandi Churchwell
Prosecutors began with the foundation of their case. Over the course of the hearing, they called the officers who responded to the shooting, the Utah State Bureau of Investigation agents who led the investigation, forensics experts, DNA analysts, and Tyler Robinson's roommate. They introduced surveillance footage, photographs, the rifle recovered from the wooded area, forensic testing and digital evidence collected during the investigation. But woven throughout nearly all of that evidence was one person, Tyler's roommate, Lance Twiggs. According to Lance, he and Tyler first met in person in 2023, although they had spoken before then. At first, Tyler was simply a new roommate, living with him in an apartment in St. George, Utah, roughly four hours from Utah Valley University. Over the following months, Lance testified that their friendship developed into a romantic relationship. At the time of Charlie Kirk's death, Tyler was working for an electrical company and typically left for work around 7am each morning. But September 10th was not a typical day. Lance testified that Tyler left the apartment much earlier than usual. He estimated it was around 4am and for most of that day, Lance said he didn't really hear from Tyler. Then, around 11pm that night, his phone buzzed with a text message. It read, drop what you're doing. Look under my keyboard. What Lance found beneath that keyboard in the text messages and recorded interview that followed became some of the most significant evidence prosecutors presented during the preliminary hearing. It tied together many of the other pieces of the investigation. Underneath that keyboard was a handwritten note from Tyler addressed to Luna, the name that Lance sometimes uses.
- [31:16]
Tyler Robinson (via note)
Luna, if you are reading this per my text and I am so sorry. I left the house this morning on a mission and set an auto text. I am likely dead or facing a wimpy prison sentence. I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and I took it. I don't know if I will have succeeded but I had hoped to make it home to you. I wish I could have stayed for you and lived our lives together. I lack the words to express how much I love you and how very much you mean to me. Please try and find joy in this life. I love you. Always, Tyler.
- [31:54]
Brandi Churchwell
Lance testified that he immediately picked up his phone and responded.
- [31:58]
Prosecutor
He.
- [31:58]
Brandi Churchwell
You're joking, right? According to the messages presented in court, Tyler replied that he had actually tried to stop the text from sending before Lance saw it. He reassured Lance that he was okay, but said he was still in Orem because he hadn't been able to retrieve his rifle. He told Lance that he had planned to keep what had happened a secret until he died of old age and apologized for involving him. Still trying to understand what he was reading, Lance asked the question, you're not the one who did this, right? Tyler's response was, I am. I'm sorry. According to the text messages introduced by prosecutors, Tyler went on to say that he had had enough of Charlie's hatred and that he had been planning the shooting for a little over a week. For prosecutors, these messages became one of the most significant pieces of evidence in the entire hearing, not because they stood alone, but because they would argue that the text matched the physical evidence. The surveillance footage and the rest of the investig. For prosecutors, Lance Twigs became the thread that tied nearly every piece of evidence together. And from here, they built their case. It started with Tyler waking up around 4am that morning. The drive from St. George to Utah Valley University is roughly four hours, and according to investigators, that's almost exactly when the suspect first appears on surveillance footage near campus. The timing matched, and so did the car. The gray Dodge Challenger captured on surveillance matched Tyler's right down to its distinctive wheels. Then there was the encounter later that night when an officer stopped the same car as it attempted to enter the lockdown campus. Trusting his instincts, the officer wrote down the license plate, and it came back to Tyler Robinson. Tyler even talked about that exchange in the text messages. The surveillance footage itself also became another cornerstone of the case because the suspect is seen wearing clothing, shoes, and a backpack and a hat that prosecutors said were consistent with what Tyler was wearing when he turned himself in. And Lance testified that he couldn't say with 100% certainty that the person he saw in the video was Tyler, but he believed it looked like him. But according to court documents, Tyler's own mother independently recognized him in the FBI photographs as well. And then prosecutors pointed to perhaps the strongest identification evidence of all, Tyler himself. In text messages introduced at the hearing, Tyler told Lance that one of his co workers had sent him a screenshot of the surveillance images. And Tyler admitted that the Person in the picture was him. Then there were the engraved bullets. Lance testified that in the weeks leading up to the shooting, Tyler had asked where the apartment's Dremel tool was because he wanted to engrave bullets. Tyler told him he was planning to go hunting with his family, and Lance showed him where the tool was and reminded him to be careful. Investigators later recovered that same Dremel tool, along with the engraving bits and power cord. The DNA testing showed that Tyler's DNA is on that tool and the bits and the cord. Prosecutors also pointed out that Tyler discussed engraving bullets and the specific phrases on those engraved bullets in the text messages that they had already presented to the court. He even made a joke about the one with the spent casing and hoping that he didn't see that on Fox News. The rifle told a similar story. As I mentioned earlier, the Mauser 98 was an older rifle, and in his text messages, Tyler described it as his grandfather's gun. He admitted that he wasn't even sure whether it had a serial number, but if it did, he didn't think it could be traced back to him. What he was worried about, though, were fingerprints. And he told Lance that that's why he stayed in Orem after the shooting, because he was trying to get back to the rifle. Before investigators found it, Tyler wrote that he had hidden it beneath a bush in the same place where he had changed clothes. Investigators found exactly that. A Mauser rifle wrapped in a towel beneath a bush along the wooded path. Lance testified that Tyler worried about what his father would say if he didn't return his grandfather's rifle, calling it the only evidence that he had left behind. When forensic analysts processed the rifle and towel, they found Tyler's DNA on the towel and on multiple areas of the firearm and including the stock, bolt, butt, plate, the scope, and most importantly, the trigger and trigger cover. His DNA was even on the cartridges that were still inside the rifle. And finally, prosecutors pointed to one last piece of physical evidence recovered from the roof itself, the black and red screwdriver. Officer Bagley found it just feet from where investigators say the sniper's firing position was, and they tested it for DNA. According to the testimony, Tyler Robinson's DNA was found on it, placing him, according to prosecutors, at the very spot where the sniper had been when Charlie Kirk was shot. By the end of this hearing, prosecutors had woven those individual pieces into one continuous story. According to their theory, Tyler left home before dawn, already knowing what he intended to do. He left behind a handwritten note and scheduled an automatic text message to Lance so that if he never came home, Lance would know where to find it. He then drove to Orem, where surveillance cameras captured him driving and walking through the neighborhood surrounding Utah Valley University hours before Charlie Kirk ever took the stage. Prosecutors argue he was scouting the area. They say Tyler visited campus twice that morning before disappearing into that wooded area that borders the university. And when he returned, he was wearing different clothes. Prosecutors argued he had changed there after retrieving the rifle. And cameras captured him walking with a noticeable limp, keeping his right leg unusually straight, which prosecutors believe was consistent with someone concealing a long rifle beneath their clothing. Tyler later admitted in his own text messages that the surveillance images released by the FBI were in fact images of him. The cameras then followed him to the Losee Building. They showed him climbing the exterior stairs, the stepping onto the roof, crouching into position and waiting. At 12:22pm Prosecutors say he fired a single shot. In the text messages introduced at the hearing, Tyler later told Lance that his grandfather's rifle had shot just fine, and he even commented on the expensive scope mounted to it. Moments later, surveillance cameras captured the suspect sprinting across the rooftop before climbing down and dropping into the grass below. Carrying what appeared to be a long object and a towel, he disappeared into the wooded path between campus and the neighborhood where he had been seen earlier that morning. That same path is where investigators later recovered the rifle and towel, both containing Tyler's DNA. Prosecutors argued it was also the same rifle that Tyler later admitted he had unsuccessfully tried to retrieve before police found it. The investigation began closing in. The FBI released surveillance photographs, and Tyler's own mother recognized him. She showed the images to Tyler's father, who, according to the text messages, believed he recognized his own father's rare Mauser rifle after seeing it on the news. Tyler told Lance that his father was asking him to send a photograph of the family rifle because he suspected that it might have been the one used in the shooting. According to prosecutors, it was at that point that Tyler realized he wasn't going to be able to keep this a secret until, as he had once written to Lance, he died of old age. Instead, he began preparing to surrender. He exchanged messages with Lance, hoping to see him one last time to say goodbye. And then, just minutes before turning himself in alongside his parents and a family friend, Tyler sent one final message to a discord group of friends. He said, hey, guys, I have bad news for you all. It was me at UVU yesterday. I'm sorry for all this. I'm surrendering. Through a sheriff friend in a few moments. Thanks for all the good times and laughs. You've all been so amazing. Thank you all for everything. We'll be right back.
- [40:10]
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- [40:47]
Brandi Churchwell
So what happens Next? The preliminary hearing may be over, but the case is far from it. Over the next several weeks, both sides will submit written briefs explaining why they believe the prosecution either did or did not present enough evidence to establish probable cause. After those briefs are filed, the attorneys will return to court on September 1 for oral arguments where the judge will hear both sides before deciding whether Tyler Robinson will stand trial for Charlie Kirk's murder. As of this recording of this episode, Tyler Robinson has not yet entered a plea, meaning a negotiated plea agreement remains a possibility before the case ever reaches a jury. But as this chapter comes to a close, one question continues to dominate conversations online. Putting aside the conspiracy theories, putting aside politics, putting aside everything else, could Tyler Robinson really have made that shot? That is a debate that is circulating everywhere from that distance with that rifle, striking Charlie Kirk with a single bullet on the very first attempt. It's a question that has fueled endless debate across the Internet, and whether it ultimately matters in court remains to be seen. But I consulted my own in house expert on this one. My husband, van. Van spent 22 years in the army, including 15 years as a Green Beret with multiple deployments in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. During that time, he completed the Special Operations Target Interdiction course and received extensive advanced marksmanship and sniper training. I could spend the next 10 minutes reading through his resume, but for the purpose of this conversation, the important part is he is retired Special Forces and spent years training to make shots like these. I asked him one simple could someone have made that shot? The distance presented during the preliminary hearing was approximately 138 yards. Vann's answer was exactly what I would expect from someone with that background. He said he could only offer a professional opinion based on the evidence that's publicly available and his own training. According to Vann, a shot from 138 yards is not difficult for a trained marksman. But Tyler Robinson wasn't a military sniper. According to the evidence Tyler was an experienced hunter and knew how to use a rifle, though Vann explained that making a shot like this would depend on several factors, including having a stable shooting position, a clear line of sight, and a properly sighted in rifle. Now, based on the evidence presented at the hearing, he believes the shooter appeared to have both a stable position and a clear view of Charlie Kirk. The more interesting question, in my opinion, is the scope. Vann explained that if the scope had been properly zeroed beforehand, it's possible that it could have been removed for transport and then reattached before the shot while still maintaining accuracy. Now, that would have allowed someone to move around campus carrying a much lower profile rifle without a large scope mounted on top. It also provides a possible explanation for why investigators found a screwdriver on the roof. He emphasized that this isn't something that someone would simply guess would work. It actually requires the rifle and the scope to be properly set up beforehand and the confidence that the system would return to zero. Now, Tyler himself mentioned the scope in his text messages, describing it as a $2,000 optic. According to Vann, a quality scope can make the target at 138 yards appear much larger and easier to engage. What no one knows, however, is exactly what Tyler was aiming at. Was he aiming for Charlie's head? His chest? Somewhere else entirely? Based on his experience, Vann believes it's less likely that the intended point of aim was the neck. Given the stress of the moment, the movement of the target, and the environment, he believes it's more plausible that the shooter aimed toward Charlie's upper body and that the bullet's final path just differed from the intended point of impact. Another claim that circulated widely online involves the bullet itself. Some have argued that because the bullet didn't exit Charlie Kirk's body, it could not have come from a.30 auk6 rifle. But that's not necessarily true. The rifle recovered in this case was chambered in. 30:06Springfield, the same caliber used in the rifle that killed Martin Luther King, Jr. Dr. King's fatal wound also did not result in a complete pass through the bullet entered through his face and neck, causing catastrophic injuries. But it did remain inside his body. Interestingly, that shot was fired from a distance of roughly 69 yards, about half the distance that prosecutors say separated the shooter, in this case, from Charlie Kirk. Now, that doesn't prove that the same thing happened here. Every shooting is different, and bullet behavior depends on numerous factors, including the exact bullet used, its construction velocity, what it strikes, the angle of impact. But it does show that the absence of an exit wound by itself is not unusual for a 3006 round. There is no question that this case has become about much more than a murder investigation. From the moment Charlie Kirk was shot, the story became intertwined with politics, social media, and competing narratives. Before the evidence was ever presented in court, millions of people had already formed opinions about what they believed had happened. Some became convinced investigators had the right person. Others became equally convinced they had the wrong one. But that's also what makes this case so fascinating from a legal perspective. A courtroom doesn't operate on viral videos, podcasts, or posts on X. It operates on evidence. Witnesses testify under oath, exhibits are introduced, experts are cross examined, and every side has an opportunity to challenge the other's claims. After five days of testimony, prosecutors believe that they've shown there's enough evidence to send Tyler Robinson to trial. The defense disagrees, and now it's up to the judge to decide whether that prosecution has met the relatively low standard of probable cause. If the judge says yes, this case moves one step closer to a jury trial, where the burden then becomes much higher. Prosecutors won't just have to show that there's enough evidence to proceed. They'll have to prove Tyler Robinson's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And if that trial happens, many of the questions that continue to dominate social media may finally be answered in front of a jury. But until then, the debate is likely to continue. As always, like I said before, my goal isn't to tell you what to believe, is to present the evidence, explain the legal process as I see it, and give you the information that you need to reach your own conclusions. Because at the end of the day, that's what being a 13th juror is all about. My name is Brandy Churchwell, creator and host, host of the 13th Juror podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast platform and leave a rating or review. It helps more listeners discover the podcast. And if you know someone who would find this case as fascinating as you did, share this episode with them. For additional episodes, case updates, and more information about the podcast, visit our website@13jurorpodcast.com the evidence has been presented, the argument, arguments have been made, and now comes the same question faced by every juror. What do you believe? Thank you for listening.
- [48:29]
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