EP 72: Tyler's Journey To Sobriety

Summary

2 Addicts & A Moron – EP 72: Tyler's Journey To Sobriety

Podcast Date: September 17, 2025
Guest: Tyler
Main Theme: Tyler shares his raw, unvarnished story of addiction, multiple relapses, and finding lasting recovery. Hosts Stu and Joey (“the Moron”) guide the conversation, delving into the mindset of addiction, recovery pitfalls, community, and the importance of staying teachable.

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on Tyler’s powerful and honest journey through more than a decade of addiction, his struggle to find and sustain sobriety, and the lessons learned through multiple stints in treatment. The hosts and Tyler explore what “recovery” really means, the traps of thinking you know it all, and finding fulfillment in sober living. The tone is candid, friendly, and peppered with humor and real talk—the exact blend that has connected listeners to this show.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Tyler’s Timeline and Drugs of Choice

• Tyler’s Sobriety: 15 months (sober since June 3, 2024) [01:57]
• Drugs of Choice: Started with meth in his 20s; later cocaine (IV), alcohol, kratom—basically, “whatever’s around” [02:21]
  • “I will use anything. Even if I hate it, I will use it. Just whatever’s around.” – Tyler [02:33]
• Nature of Addiction: Early exposure at 16, first blackout, rapid escalation with every new substance, and identity wrapped up in being “a stoner guy” [08:20]
• Length and Progression: About 12–13 years of “hard enough use that I realized life sucked. It wasn’t fun anymore.” [07:40]

The Allure and Normalization of Substance Use

• Normalization of Alcohol: Hosts and Tyler discuss how society makes alcohol ever-present and ultra-accessible, making it uniquely hard for alcoholics to avoid [03:23–05:43]
  • “The cost of admission for alcohol is so low and the acceptability of it, too.” – Tyler [04:12]
• Fitting In and Trauma: Tyler was driven by wanting to fit in, and later used substances to cope with significant trauma, including sexual abuse in high school [09:49–14:21]
  • “I did drugs because I wanted to fit in and be cool. I was a lost little kid at 15.” – Tyler [10:49]
  • “I have some sexual trauma from around high school... there was a switch where it became a coping strategy.” – Tyler [12:37]

Treatment & Relapse: The Chaos of Recovery

• Multiple Stints in Rehab: Tyler attended 6 different treatment centers, with each experience offering something new but also requiring him to “start from scratch” [16:30, 54:22–55:38]

  • “Six is about, like, middle of the road.” – Tyler [16:33]

• Relapse Stories: candid recounting of relapse triggers—some meticulously planned, some utterly impulsive [25:15–31:16]

  • “When I relapsed... I didn’t, like, immediately seek out meth. I ended up trying kratom.” – Tyler [20:16]
  • “I had to pretend like I didn’t know… The things I thought I knew were probably going to get me killed.” – Tyler [55:38]

• The Cycle of Addiction: Relapses often rationalized or disguised as “helping” others; sometimes so impulsive he questioned the reality after the fact [31:07–33:10]

  • “I was like, we’re gonna set him up… three minutes after he walks out, I walk in and snort it.” – Tyler [30:24–31:02]
  • “I’m just trying to be of service here...” – Tyler (sarcastic, about using drugs) [31:35]

• Insight on Recovery Traps:

  • “The knowledge is cumulative, but I have to always be searching for a different perspective... and be willing to be coachable.” – Tyler [57:00]
  • “You always have to be teachable.” – Stu [57:22]

What Works in Recovery

• Staying Connected: The most important protective factor was staying in communication and being accountable to sober friends [34:37–36:21]

  • “When I struggle, I don’t do it alone anymore… Now it’s between me and others.” – Tyler [35:38]
  • “All my struggles and internal conflict used to be between me and myself. Now it’s between me and others.” – Tyler [35:26]

• Service and Community:

  • “One of the biggest things for me is, when I struggle, I don’t do it alone anymore.” – Tyler [35:38]
  • “Pretty quickly, recovery stops being about drugs and alcohol and starts being about myself… and helping people.” – Tyler [39:46–41:32]

Notable Quotes About Addiction’s Logic

• “My drug of choice is drug of no choice.” – Tyler [18:45]
• “If you introduce a drug to me and there’s a substantial amount of it, you’re getting after it. I’ll use it alcoholically, immediately.” – Tyler [08:28]
• “I was never under the delusion that I could control things.” – Tyler [09:18]
• “I’m not a good drug addict. Like, I’m pretty bad at it.” – Tyler [49:37]

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Notable Guests, Moments & Humor

• Dynamic with Co-hosts: Joey jokes that he initially disliked Tyler for using too many big words and for being up early in rehab—later they become close [22:19–23:02]
  • “He used big, more than seven-letter words. I didn’t like that.” – Joey [22:35]
  • “That’s my least favorite person right now.” – Joey [22:48]
• Kratom Detox Story: Tyler experienced severe withdrawal from kratom, to the ire of his rehab roommates—sparking laughter and rehab “house arrest” stories [21:37–22:27]
• Music & Recovery: Ends with a deep dive into favorite bands (Deftones, Pantera, etc.), concerts, and how music is a huge part of Tyler’s sober life [70:50–87:00]
  • “I find enjoyment in anything that I’m doing. That’s the thing: I don’t have to feel like I’m doing some special activity for things to be fun.” – Tyler [71:14]
• Charlie Sheen Discussion: The hosts riff on celebrity recovery, secrecy, and the hazards of fame, blending humor and real insight [41:33–49:13]

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Highlights: Recovery Wisdom & Memorable Quotes

On Why Recovery Finally “Stuck”

• “The notion of going and taking a drink is so absurd to me now that it gets laughed off… That wasn’t always true.” – Tyler [34:16]
• “Now I run every dumbass thing by somebody. I have a few core people that I’ll talk to about everything.” – Tyler [34:59]
• “If you put barriers up between your recovery world and the outside world… there has to be some selfishness at the bottom of that.” – Tyler [40:46]

On Trauma & Stigma

• “Lots of people assume it’s trauma... But I know people with normal childhoods that end up street junkies. It’s not one-size-fits-all.” – Tyler [12:24]
• “Putting all your medals on your chest… there’s no more hiding, no more shame.” – Joey (paraphrasing past guest Stephen Sheehan) [36:25]

Most Memorable Moment

• Tyler and Joey both admit their first impressions were negative, then became best friends in recovery, poking fun at the “character defect of judgment” they both held [66:30–67:09]

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Recovery in Action: Day-to-Day Sobriety

• Today, Tyler:

  • Works as a tech in a mental health treatment center [67:49]
  • Manages sober living housing and does handyman work [68:30]
  • Attends meetings, reads, goes to the gym, plays loads of sports, and enjoys concerts [70:50–72:38]
  • Emphasizes just “answering the phone” and showing up for people as core to his happiness [69:00–70:33]
  • Finds joy in simple things, reluctant to romanticize “big plans” in recovery

  “I find more fulfillment in most day-to-day activities and just life in general.” – Tyler [71:14]

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Community Events & Podcast Reflections

• Discussion of recent show trip to Marshalltown, Iowa – gratitude for being invited to speak at a sober event and the surreal experience of connecting with listeners in unexpected places [89:30–94:24]
• Reflections on the responsibility and honor of sharing stories that build hope:
  • “Your story will be too. I mean, I hope so. You guys have platformed a lot of growth and recovery for people.” – Tyler [94:24]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:57] – Tyler marks 15 months of sobriety
• [05:50–09:50] – Early years, first rehab, trajectory of addiction
• [14:18] – Connection between trauma and substance abuse
• [16:30] – The grind of multiple treatment attempts
• [25:15] – Relapse planning and the “slippery slope”
• [34:37–36:21] – Staying connected and not struggling alone
• [39:46–41:32] – Recovery as a principle of life, not just abstinence
• [70:50–72:38] – What fun and fulfillment look like in sobriety
• [89:30–94:24] – Reflections on the Iowa event, community, and responsibility

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Tone and Takeaways

• Candid, Open, and Humorous: The episode blends dark truths with plenty of jokes and camaraderie, keeping the conversation real and relatable.
• Hopeful Yet Cautious: Tyler’s story is a testament that recovery is possible but always precarious; “never be too smart to keep learning” and “don’t be alone in your struggle” are key themes.
• Community and Service: The strongest thread is the value of community—both in recovery and life. Service to others and honest accountability are the foundation for growth.
• Recovery Doesn’t Mean Life is Boring: Tyler’s new joys—music, sports, reading, showing up for friends—underscore that fulfillment in sobriety is real, if you stay open and connected.

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Final Note:
Anyone in early sobriety or struggling to “get it” will hear themselves in Tyler’s story—his skepticism, pain, humor, and hope. Stu and Joey create a space where recovery is honest, fallible, and worth celebrating, one day and one story at a time.

Transcript

[A]

Disclaimer at Two Addicts and a Moron, we discuss personal stories of addiction with the intention of being educational, relatable, and inspirational. The views and experiences shared are those of individuals involved are not meant to glorify or condone any illegal or harmful behavior. This content is for educational purposes only and is not intended as professional advice. If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction, we strongly encourage you seek help from a qualified professional or support service. And just like that, we are back to another episode of two Addicts in a Moron. Man, I miss you. I miss you, Joe. I mean, we see each other all the time, but Joe, not so much, man. It's a. We. We've gone a couple weeks without seeing Joe.

[B]

No dick pics? No nothing.

[C]

Nothing.

[A]

Dude, you. You don't call. You don't write. You're just like, when dudes are time to film. Like, you're just all business. No. No friends. All right, well, anyway, miss you, buddy. We're glad to be back. Back from Iowa. We have. This is the first episode since it is Marshalltown, Iowa. And I want to get into that a little bit later, but we have brought a very special guest in the house special.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Tyler, everybody. Hey, what's up, dude? Hey, guys.

[C]

It's really, really nice to be here with you guys.

[A]

This is, like, a long time coming. I, I, we, we were saying Mike has been talking about getting you in here for a long time.

[C]

Well, he had to wait on me to get substantially sober again so that, like, someone would listen to anything that I said. Like, how, how long you got now? I was like, we're getting there. I'll feel confident to talk to you about things in about three or four months. Yeah. So here we are. We've reached that threshold, I think.

[A]

Well, that's awesome, dude. I'm glad that you're here. I'm glad that we finally got you on.

[C]

And yeah, it's really, really nice to be here.

[A]

And let's get into it, dude. So how long have you been sober?

[C]

15 months now. So June. Thank you. Thank you. Go, dude. June 3rd of 2024. All right, that makes 15 months, right? Yeah. We're close enough. Yeah, it's close enough. I'm counting.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I'm counting like, my life depends on it sometimes. How long are we at now?

[A]

Hey, that's awesome. And what was the doc, man?

[C]

So the doc in my 20s was meth. It's been, when I went in this time, I was shooting a bunch of cocaine. It's been alcohol. It's been kratom. Okay. I will use anything. Even if I hate it, I will use it. Just whatever. Whatever's around.

[A]

So, like, Stephen, what you got?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That was my favorite answer, like, ever. I was like, what's your doc? It's something I ask everybody. And he was like, what you got, man?

[C]

That's the best answer. Was this the gravelly voice Steven from the Steven. He's definitely what you got kind of guy. Mine. Mine was usually just, like, happenstance. It was like, oh, this guy's near, and he. And he sells coke. So now I guess I'm doing coke. Or like. But, you know, and it's absolutely. What happened. I was just like. All of a sudden, I'm just, like. Just bad off on cocaine. Just like, what the. I hate cocaine.

[B]

I do, too.

[C]

Here I am. I've been doing it, you know, shooting it for weeks now. Yeah, yeah, it was. It. I mean, the Kratom, too. It's like you just go into a gas station, you just. You get Kratom.

[A]

Well, that's what alcohol like. Alcohol freaks me out, dude. Like, I. I mean, it doesn't freak me out. I can have a drink still and be okay. But the. But for alcoholics, people who have struggled with that disease, it's always like, the one that I am blown away that you're able to stay off of the most.

[C]

Right? Yeah. I mean, every time you go into any kind of store, the barrier to entry.

[A]

Right. Like, we've talked about that a few times in here is so much easier and so much more acceptable.

[B]

Like, well, every sports game is pretty much sponsored by alcohol. Right? Baseball, football, you call it.

[A]

Canelo's fighting tonight. He has Hennessy huge on his. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's.

[C]

I don't think I've ever drink in Hennessy. We're gonna be. I don't sound like a Hennessy guy.

[B]

Never.

[C]

Never been there. But, yeah, absolutely. The, like, cost of admission for alcohol.

[A]

Is so low and the acceptability of it, too.

[C]

I was at a concert the other night, and I was with one of my friends, and he was, like, looking at me, he's like, you know, what the hell do you do? And I'm like, I'm at a concert with you. What do you mean? Like, I'm enjoying the music. And it's like, it's so ingrained and our social psyche that, like, alcohol makes everything better. Alcohol is necessary to have a good time. You know, alcohol is. Is like the perfect accoutrement to any situation. That, that alcoholics are just. I, I, I'm in, I'm in the same boat where I'm like you guys are. It's everywhere.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and they would be, you know, if, if they had to, if they had to like fight that urgent 24 7.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Dude.

[A]

Because it's that Chuck E. Cheese.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Right.

[A]

I mean it's literally everywhere, dude.

[C]

Your child in and yeah, you go hit the bar.

[A]

Right. Like Lakeline Mall has a bar in the middle of the now and you.

[B]

Can walk around with the drinks.

[A]

Yeah. Now you, you don't have to sit.

[B]

At the bar anymore. That's yesterday.

[C]

Well, you can walk around the mall with your drink now.

[B]

Yeah, you just can't leave the mall with it.

[C]

That's really good for normal people.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, that's nice. Like if I could enjoy, I can see how that would be a really nice thing if I, if I could enjoy.

[B]

Oh, if you're shopping with your wife, it's like 100.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, this is so much better.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean nothing makes like a trip to the mall. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But it can be almost. Okay. Like you could almost be there.

[A]

Yeah, man. So, so how long were you in the fight for? How long were you struggling?

[C]

So let's, the first time I, I did anything about My addiction was 20. I was 23 at that point. I like, you know, I lost like a four out of college. I had just lost two jobs. I've been struggling with, you know, not knowing how to cope with, with trauma for years. But at that point I thought that like, you know, I can just kind of go reset. Like, like I'll go to this, this rehab, I'll get some good time under me and I'll be able to.

[A]

I'll.

[C]

Be able to kind of reset my life. And that was, that was the first time. So at 23. And I went two more, two more times. I went two more times of treatment before I had any like real substantial sobriety. The second time I went into treatment. So the first time I was like, I was drinking a lot and I was like, we had, we had found some heroin, but we were snorting it and it wasn't, it wasn't awful. Like I, like I've, I've experienced way worse. The second time I came in, I was, I weighed like a buck 40. I had been in psychosis for weeks. My legs were covered in scabs cuz I thought that there were bugs in my skin and I had been like picking at myself.

[A]

Is this meth?

[C]

This Is meth.

[A]

Oh yeah, dude.

[C]

The bugs in the skin. Yeah, yeah, this is the meth days. I spent like eight years, I guess in total on meth. So that's the second time and that's technically like the worst that I, that I ever was. When I checked into to treatment at 25 and it was still another five years before I got any real sobriety. And then I had three years. I relapsed for a few months, then I met Stu. So, you know, all together, 12, 13 years of like hard enough use that I, I realized that life sucked.

[A]

All right.

[C]

Like a hard enough use that like it wasn't fun anymore. And I knew that this was just something that I was doing to survive as opposed to like having fun. Yeah, it's like 12 or 13 years all together.

[A]

So the first time that you went into treatment, like how long were you. What, how, what was the length of time from when you felt like you were. It started it to when you got to that point. Trying to break down a timeline here, like how old were you when I started drinking? Yeah, that was a stupid way of asking that question. Sorry, words.

[C]

Common core question. From 16, 15 to 23.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah. When I. So the first time I drank, like I blacked the out. And the second time I drank, I blacked out. And the third time, I think it was like six times before I could like successfully drink. All right, like go home and like not like remember what happened, you know, from alcohol, weed. Like that was my whole identity. It was like I'm a little stoner guy. Yeah. First time I tried, I went from like one line of cocaine to like stealing money from people's cars within like a two week span. So if you introduce a drug to me and like there's a, there's a substantial amount of it, you're getting after it. Right. And I'll use it alcoholically, like immediately. Like there's no, you know, I've never been under the delusion that I was, that I could control things.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Honestly, I. And everyone around me, even from, from a young age has been like, this guy will some up. Like he will, he will embarrass himself, he'll embarrass the people around him. Like, you know, I had so many blackouts, woken up in jail multiple times. But yeah, so you know, incrementally things getting worse and worse. From 16 to 23 before I really decided like, this is a problem that I should go take a look at. But you just, I just assume that it wouldn't be that Hard of a problem to solve.

[A]

Yeah. Why did you do drugs and alcohol?

[C]

Why? You know? Okay, so that's a.

[A]

It's a complicated question.

[C]

It is a complicated question. And. And the answer to, like, the initial. So I remember, like, I distinctly remember as a kid having these assemblies where they would bring in people to tell you about the dangers of drugs. And we had one. It was like these two guys that look like Wayne and Garth, and they. They were called nerds, the Never Ending Radical dudes.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[C]

And they were absolutely. Dude. And they were there. They were there to tell us about the perils of drug use.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[C]

And I just remember thinking to myself, like, at like 9 years old, like, I don't know, that sounds kind of nice, you know, Like, I want to try that. Like, I want to. I want to give it a go. Like, even at night, I was just like. I. I think I was cognitively aware that, like, at some point in my life I would probably try that. Okay.

[B]

So.

[C]

But I did drugs because I wanted to. To fit in and be cool. Yeah. Honest. Like, I was a lost little kid at 15. I. I wanted to feel like, you know, I was liked and respected. I spent most of my time in my room reading, so it was like my way to try to, you know, come out of my shell and come out and be with other people. And drugs help me do that.

[A]

Yeah. And it's weird because, like, I've tried just about every drug. They just never stuck. Right. Like, I just can leave them alone, but I can look back on it now and be like, the only reason why I ever did them was because I was trying to fit in or be cool to the group of people that I was around. Right. So I get that. I mean, that's what makes me think that it's not. So. There is a. There is a degree of it that's physical.

[C]

Oh.

[A]

In addition to the mental side. It's right. The perfect thing. I don't know what the right answer is. And nobody will probably ever figure that the out.

[C]

That's. Yeah. That's such a complicated, Complicated issue to even look at because, you know, there's a lot of people that. That they all assume it's trauma. They all assume that. Like, that's why they. They say it's like a malady. Maladaptive coping strategy, I think, is, like, people assume that it's a trauma response. But I know people who, you know, have normal ass childhoods that end up like street junkies.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It's like, it's not it's definitely not one size fits all. But I knew when I started doing drugs that, like, a. I was curious of, like, how would that feel?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and the friends that I had also did drugs, and so we did drugs together. And it was. And it was a good time for a long time. And then I am. I am someone who has significant trauma. I have some sexual trauma from around. In high school. And when that happened, like, it definitely. There was definitely, like, a. A switch where it became a coping strategy, and it became like, I. I. You know, I've gotta. I've gotta blank out to some extent or. Or numb myself. Or numb yourself is such a. Such a misnomer, because a lot of times it's the exact opposite of number yourself. You, like, become more aware. I'm more susceptible to the pain, but my brain tells me it's okay to do this, and my brain tells me that this is a way to make myself feel better. And so it went from, like, I just drank and smoked weed with my friends to, like, I drank and smoked weed because that's how I. I survived for a while. And then whatever else got thrown in, I would do as well. I loved pain pills. I loved Adderall. Adderall is what. What shifted me towards meth because I was. I drank a lot. And I. I think that. So to your point about, like, the physical nature of it, I think that, like, I have the body of a true alcoholic. Like, my body, I think, takes a lot longer to process alcohol, so it all stays in there longer. I'll be hungover for three days. So if I drink a lot, the next morning, I'm gonna do drugs. Like, all of my relapses have started with me drinking, waking up, feeling so shitty that I'm like, I'm gonna go do drugs.

[A]

Yeah, you kill the pain.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Right? Kill the physical pain.

[C]

Right? Kill the. Yeah, the drugs. And that's the same with the Adderall is like, I would be at work. I was working at a kitchen at that point, like, 22, and come in so hungover that, like, there's no way I'm frying fish today.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so the waitresses had Adderall. And so. And then eventually you realize that. And I was living in Arkansas at the time, going to school, and that place is just rife with meth. It's everywhere. Yeah.

[A]

Go Hogs.

[C]

Man, do you guys win today?

[A]

When I'm not a. I have a family in Arkansas.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I. With them all the Time. I'm like, pig Suey. That's.

[C]

Yeah. Okay. On a side note, people in Arkansas hate Texas.

[A]

Oh, dude.

[C]

And I know, and I have no idea why.

[A]

It's insane.

[C]

Like, when I moved to Arkansas and they were like, you're from Texas. Like, yeah, I'm from Texas. Like, I'm like, I'm a Longhorns fan. They're like, you and Iura.

[A]

And the great words of Tom Segura, arkansas is where all of our goes when we flush our toilets here in Texas.

[C]

It's perfect. I hope that they all hear it as well. I hope that we should start plastering those words on the bridges of Little Rock and let them all know.

[A]

Let them know.

[C]

Let them know.

[A]

Let them know. Texas is so much better than you accept our Arkansas.

[C]

Yeah, we do love y', all, but y' all are probably in northwest Arkansas, which is gorgeous.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

In a great place.

[A]

Arkansas is a pretty cool state. I, like, I go there for. To visit family and stuff.

[C]

It's great.

[A]

But, yeah, we. But they come here and they talk endless about, like, the Longhorns and the.

[B]

Aggies, and if you think about it, that's like. Is that the only sports scene they have?

[C]

Yes. Yeah. It's their life.

[B]

Like. Like, you have one thing. There's not. There's not a lot of options. So, of course they're going to be die hard, absolute Arkansas, and they're going.

[A]

To be meth fans.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. It's their. Yeah.

[B]

I should have moved to Arkansas during my addiction.

[A]

Yeah. So. So multiple stints and rehabs. Yeah.

[C]

So I've been to treatment six times.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Which is not a huge number when, you know, I've talked to a lot of people, and six is like. It's about, like, middle of the road. Middle of the road. Yeah.

[B]

We had what someone was in here with 17 or 27, something like that.

[A]

Yeah. We've had some people that have went in a lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it. It's all. It always strikes me they go in with the mentality that they're addicted to meth or heroin or whatever it is, and they're like, I'm not addicted to alcohol. Alcohol was never my thing. Like, so they get out and just like you. It's like they drink and it just kind of tail spins out again. You know, they. They lose sight that it's. They are that type of personality that can't really.

[B]

Especially the women that we've had on.

[C]

Especially the women, like, heroin addicts turned alcoholics.

[B]

Well, yeah. Like, when they're in Treatment. They're talking about heroin or meth or whatever. They're all about it. And then they get to alcohol, and they're like, this isn't for me. I'm not alcoholic. And then they get out and they stay sober for a minute, and some of them can go drink here and there, but then eventually it just gets.

[C]

You back into where you're right. And. And I don't know if this is the forum to say this, but, like, there are people who, you know, who have been, like, down in the dirt. Heroin addicts. I know him personally. And after, like, six years of sobriety, she started drinking normally, and she's been doing it for years now.

[B]

And I'm almost four years from all drugs.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But I can still have a drink or two, and it doesn't. Doesn't affect me or anything. Yeah, it really doesn't.

[C]

Yeah. I wouldn't.

[B]

Now that's not the norm. And I wouldn't tell people. Like, I always tell people, find your own. Find your own sober. Right. If that means that you can't do. Then you can't do anything if that means you can do this and not ruin your life. I know that I can't put a drug in my body because I will not stop. Right. Once I get that feeling back, it's done. And once I get the feeling that I just ruined almost four years of no drugs, once I know once that kicks in here, it's gonna be like, well, why am I gonna stop right now? Now I'm just gonna go all the way back out, right?

[C]

Yeah. 100.

[B]

Yeah. I'm gonna go enjoy this relapse for a while.

[C]

So that's. That's the strange thing, though, is. Is, you know, back to your question of what my. My drug of choice is. I like to say drug of no choice, but when I relapse. So me and Stu met. I had. When me. We met, I had been sober for three years. I relapsed on meth in Arkansas. I went to see a buddy to go backpacking in. In, like, the Watchdog National Forest. Dude, like a survivalist buddy who had just, like, shotguns on every couch.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

And I walk in, and. And he sounds like, Arkansas Y100.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

This perfect Arkansas storm. The only caveat is he has a master's in psychology and is like, a therapist, but. Right, Right. And that's a dangerous dude to be.

[A]

Sitting on a couch with, bro.

[C]

Like, he literally shot himself in the leg. He's literally shot. I took a Glock from him because He. He shot himself in the leg with it. I was like, you know what? I do need a pistol. Like, I'm gonna go ahead and I'll. I'm gonna take this back with me.

[A]

Yeah, but I.

[C]

But I got there and, like, nothing was prepared for this trek through the woods that we're supposed to go on. And. And I'm just sitting there waiting on him to get off work. And. And I'm like, there's, like. There's like meth on the counter, and, you know, I'm just kind of like. And at that point, I was. I was in a place where. Where I guess, like, I'd stopped doing a lot of things that had. That had helped me to, like, have successful sobriety. So I was in. I was in a very susceptible state.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And, you know, I'm with a friend. I could. I could do this, and literally no one will ever know. But. So I relapsed on. On. On meth that weekend. And when I came back, I didn't, like, immediately seek out meth specifically. I ended up trying Kratom because I had. I had heard about that. So I tried Kratom.

[A]

And you're told it helps, right? Like, that's. People think like they. People getting off of drugs.

[C]

They. As far as Kratom goes, yeah, I.

[A]

Can just hammer down a bunch of. Over the counter at the convenience store. And. And I've never done it. I. I don't want to do it, but I. I've just heard the way it makes people feel.

[C]

Well, yeah, and they've. And it's gone from. In just like the last five years, I think it's gone from. You know, it'll be like bags of powder that you kind of capsule up yourself or you can buy capsules to. Now there's like, tinctures, and now there's these, like, seven. Oh. Things that are, like, just. Just like, hyper concentrated. And people are, like, getting really thrown off on those. But I remember I told. I told Stu maybe like, three days after we met that I was there for Kratom, and he started laughing at me. I was like, mother.

[B]

I was like, you.

[C]

Yeah, 100. Like, I had to, like, bring.

[B]

So. So what happened?

[C]

Oh, yeah, go ahead.

[B]

When he came in, they're like, this guy's really off. Like, he's sick.

[A]

Like, this is.

[B]

So when you're in rehab, we look forward to going to outside meetings. That means you get out of the house, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But if someone comes in sick and they're not able to go to the meetings, they don't just leave that person and leave someone with them. They. That means the whole house can't go. So for the first two days, we don't go nowhere because he's fudgeing sick.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then I found out he's on Kratom. I was like, oh, fuck this. This motherfucker is getting up and he's going to meetings. So I had to go in his room and say, hey, bro, I know you don't feel good. You're keeping us from going to meetings.

[A]

And you just.

[B]

We didn't like each other at the beginning.

[A]

He was telling me that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And this motherfucker was up at 6 in the morning just being himself in the kitchen.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

You know, well, well, I'm trying to. I'm detoxing.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Trying to sleep. In the morning, he's up at 6, just beating himself. Guy.

[B]

He used big. More than seven letter words. I didn't like that. You've already used like three words that now that I don't even know what the. You were saying. I gotta go dictionary. I mean, a little bit. And then he read books. Like, this dude is.

[A]

This is my least favorite person.

[B]

He's too smart. He uses big words that I don't understand. And then. Then he reads books. I was like, it took me all to read the David Goggins book, and he read like 15 books in that time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So anyway.

[C]

Yeah. The David Goggins book that I, like, refused to read. I was like, the guy's an idiot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I kept telling him, read this one. When it became cool, read this one. No, I don't want to read that.

[A]

Have you ever read it?

[C]

I did. I read it, didn't I?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. Because I know that he runs around with broken ankles and shits on himself.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

While he's running 100 miles.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, when you say it like that, he does sound like an idiot. Right.

[C]

I mean, like, of course I'm impressed.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That you made it.

[A]

That dude's. He's a fucking animal. That's like. That's not a guy that you. It's. It's so hard to even fathom, like, trying to attain that kind of mind.

[C]

But then also, to me, it seems like some sort of, like, compulsory, like, addictive response to what he's doing. If you. I mean, that's. That's some waters I really don't want to wade into, but it does seem.

[A]

Like it does a little bit. So I would say that for I. I would all the way Agree with you in that. Except for when you hear him talk. Sometimes you're. He's like, dude. He's like, man, sometimes I just. I. I stare at my shoes for, like, 45 minutes. Like, I don't want to put them on. He's like, I'm having the fight with myself to just go and do what I know I need to go do. So he doesn't want to do it. Yeah, like, he doesn't.

[B]

He's got that same person on his shoulder telling him, don't do it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. He has not seen. He has the same exact thing happening. Difference is, after he puts his shoes on, he goes and runs a hundred miles and shits on himself. Yeah.

[C]

And breaks.

[A]

And breaks.

[C]

Yeah. Like shin splints. And. No, he's. I am impressed. I'm on. It's obviously just jealousy because I take a nap at the earliest possible condition. It's like Jim Beefs.

[B]

When I see someone bigger than me in the gym, I'm like, that guy. I'll beat the out of him right now.

[C]

Looks.

[B]

And they're normally the best people in there. They're the nicest people in there. I want to ask you, when you relapse in Arkansas or any of your relapse, did you have the thought of. Were you already preparing your relapse? Does that make sense?

[C]

Okay, so the one in Arkansas. Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. So you was already thinking in advance, like, man, not.

[C]

Not for the meth. Like, my plan was. I was like, you know, I'm gonna. I'm gonna go up there. We're gonna. We're gonna be in, you know, in the forest, in the mountains, backpacking. I'm like, get us some acid, dude. Yeah, yeah, like, get us some acid. Like, we can mushroom. Yeah, we can do some acid and my mush. I can't do mushrooms. I'll, like, lock myself in the back of my head. It gets really bad. Like, I swear to God, the first time I took mushrooms, we. We got, like, an interesting way of putting that. Dude, seriously, I almost thought myself out of existence. Like, the fabric of reality was, like, getting shaky. We were eating, like, shrooms from horseshit or cow. And, like, I. I almost didn't come back. So I don't. I avoid them. But that being said, like, if. If I'm. If I'm, you know, if I'm in active addiction and someone comes and hands me some shrooms, I'll probably eat them.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, right? Knowing for sure, knowing how many times I've.

[B]

The worst thing that I could possibly But.

[C]

But so. So I told him. I was like, get us some acid. Like, let's do acid together. I'm not sure if we. We had ever. Actually. I've only, you know, done it a few times, but in. In small towns growing up, like, acid is like a mythical substance because it's just not there. Not. Not where I grew up, at least in the same. And the same for us. When we were in Arkansas, it was a little town called Aria, and you just couldn't, you know. You know, I lived in Aria for, like, five years.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I'm sorry. Yeah. Oh, dude. And so I was like, you know, get us some acid. And at that point, I had already opened up myself to the possibility of like. Like, anything. So when.

[B]

So when I realized you already kind of justified a relapse.

[C]

Yeah. And then. And then I think the first thing I was like, all right, man, give me one of those beers. And then it started raining, and so we're not going backpacking because it's like a torrential downpour, and. And I'm like, hey, man, give me one of those Adderall.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then, hey, man, just. Just throw some lines out.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So I was like. I wasn't like, I'm gonna go up there and do meth, but I was. I was like, I'm gonna be away. And I was, like, living with sober people doing. Doing, like, serious recovery, and I was just kind of in the background flailing at that time, so I was like.

[B]

You wasn't working a program or anything like that?

[C]

No, I wasn't, like, work. I wasn't working a program.

[A]

I.

[C]

No, not at all.

[B]

So on your relapse, another question. When you're working a program and you're spiritually, mentally, whatever, you're in a good place. Relapse doesn't even cross your mind, am I right? Maybe here and there, but it's a. You're able to shut it off right.

[C]

Here, here and there.

[B]

Because whenever you tail off of a program. Because I know when you get in a program, you work it hard, as. That was one thing that I actually.

[C]

You.

[B]

I was drawn to you in rehab because you knew the. It wasn't like you knew the. Like, you should be teaching it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so what I'm asking is, when you're in your program, you're probably in a good place. It's. Whenever. Do you feel yourself falling away from your program whenever you go in your relapse, or is it all just boom?

[C]

I've had mixed experiences because I've had I, you know, previously I would have told you that, that once I have that, like, a real thought to drink or, or do drugs, it's over. Right? Previously I would have told you that because that's what my experience has shown. When I was sober for three years, I never had the real thought. And then once, once I did, I did. I did it. You know, but recently, in March, actually, in March, I was at. I was. I was at a detox talking to guys about. About sobriety. And, And a guy came up to me and he was, he was like, you know, I, I really relate to you in that kratom thing because I've been, I've been taking these seven ohs, and this is the first time I had heard that these are even a thing. And he's like, they're 50 times stronger than morphine. And something in the back of my head went, whoa, you know, like you say 50 times stronger. And. And I dealt with an obsession over this for. For a few days, which was the first time that I think that I ever experience, like, real obsessive thoughts over using that I didn't use. But every other time, it's just been kind of like a spur of the moment thing. Like, you know, it's like, there I was, minding my own business.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And there I was. There I was the time that, you know, the relapse after, after we met, I had 10 months sober, and I was. I was living with a guy who was like, actively using in the middle of a relapse. And me and my roommates had tried to talk to him about it multiple times, and we'd finally found proof. We found like a hydrocodone laying on the ground, and I, I looked at my room and I was like, we're.

[A]

Gonna set him up.

[C]

Here's what we're gonna do. I was like. Because he. He found it, brought it to me, and I was like, okay, here's what you do. You take it, you put it right on top of his, like, his bathroom sink, and then we'll come back here in like two or three hours. If it's gone, we're gonna, like, talk to him about it. Say, hey, we, we know this, this hydro was there. We, you know, we know you're up. Like, we need to talk about it. Because, you know, he was. Eventually he. He overdosed multiple times before he got sober again. So it was like a serious issue. But the guy goes and puts the. Puts the pill on, on top of the counter. And like three minutes after he walks out I walk in and snort it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Did you blame it on the other guy?

[C]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. I was like, it's gone. It's gone. You know, I. I told about it, like, a week later. I was like, oh, that was me.

[B]

Did you have any intentions of doing that or was it just.

[C]

That's the question. Yeah, that's really the question. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, like, in the moment, it was.

[C]

Like, once you had the opportunity because the guys die. Like, the guy. Guy's like a. A threat to die on us. He's a heroin addict.

[A]

And you're like, I've got to help him. Yeah, I. I have to help him out.

[C]

I've got to help him. Either. Either I catch him doing this drug, or I'm gonna have to do this drug for him. Like, whichever one. Like, he is saving his life either way. I'm just trying to be of service here whenever I can. Whenever I can. But that same. The same guy, eventually, at one point, I had to take his doorknob off and rush in and, like, get him out of the tub.

[A]

Oh, man, that's terrible.

[C]

So it was like. It was a serious situation that I took advantage of.

[A]

I just picture, like, I can almost see it like a cartoon, like this scene, right? And I just hear the Foo Fighters, My Hero starting to play as you just bang this.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Here goes my.

[C]

Absolutely. And it was, you know, after that, it was. It started and I was out for the card two and a half, three years before I ever. Before I really went back into. Into recovery. So sober for. Sober for three years, just shy of three years. I was drinking, taking kratom for a couple. Couple months. Went and. And met Stew at solstice. Was sober for about 10 months. You know, hydro off the sink and then crate them in alcohol and. And alcohol and a little bit of kratom and like, managing for two and a half years before.

[A]

So you seem to be a. Maybe one of the more impulsive. Like, that's a pretty impulsive story. Like.

[C]

Oh, absolutely.

[A]

Like, that's crazy.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, how do you manage that? Because it seems like that could. You're on a dime. Like, what. How do you. How are you successful in fighting that impulsion? Now, the.

[C]

I. The short answer is that I don't. I don't have to. For some reason. For some reason it doesn't. That impulsion doesn't happen. And. And when it does, there's. There's no real fight to it. It's like, I've. I've been put In a position to where the, the notion of going and, and taking a drink or, you know, buying the kratom or whatever, it would look like that notion is like so absurd to me that it's, it's like it gets laughed off. Except for, for that, that week long period that I was obsessing about these seven. Oh things other than that, you know, the thought of drinking is, is like, it just, it's just absurd. Okay, but, but the thing is, it's always. It's been absurd.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But I first, for some, for some reason, you know, by the grace of God, I've been put in a position where, when, that, when I realized how absurd it is, like, I, you don't.

[B]

Even entertain it, right?

[C]

I don't even entertain it.

[A]

Sounds like you're making a, or you're working a program, like a pretty strong program.

[C]

Yeah, I, I absolutely. I, I work with other guys. I go talk to people at treatment centers, at a detox center. I'm actively, you know, talk with other people about the issues and problems in my life, which, which is huge, by the way. I, I'm someone that, that never let other people in.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, especially real time. Like, I never, I never thought to like run my, my thoughts and fears and, and selfish behavior and things by someone. I thought that I could just like, you know, decipher that, you know, this is, this is unhealthy or, or this is, this is an unmanageable behavior. But, but now I run every dumbass thing by somebody. Okay. I have a few people, a few very core, core people that I, that I'll talk to about everything. And that's one of the biggest things for me is like, when I struggle, I don't do it alone anymore. And all my struggles and internal conflict used to, used to be between me and myself, and now it's between me and others. And that's, that's the biggest way that like, God shows up for me because I'm someone who at one point I like, convinced myself that I had Asperger's because I felt that I was so socially inept and like, socially awkward and like, I didn't feel like I could connect to people. And I was like, there's some kind of, like there's some kind of barrier between me and other people. So to be in a position to where I, I can speak to other people about anything that's going on in my life is, is the biggest blessing. I think it's the thing that, that helps me, you know, the most not to suffer alone or to. Or to struggle alone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's really cool, dude.

[B]

It's kind of like what Stephen Sheehan said.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is, you know, whenever he was able to. All the battles, when he was able to put all the ribbons on his chest and show people, like, all the medals that I have from this and this and this, he said that's the. Was the. The best thing that's ever happened to me, because now I'm not hiding trauma or I'm not hiding this. And I'm actually to tell you, no, look, I have a medal for that. I've been through that, too. And he said it's. It's kind of like how you take. You take everything that you went through and you put it on your chest, and there's no more hiding. There's no more shame about it.

[C]

Right.

[B]

You know?

[C]

Yeah. Abs. Absolutely. And. And that guy. I. You know, I've. I've seen that guy around, and he's. He absolutely wears it on his chest.

[B]

And.

[C]

And. And, I mean, we're told that we're in a unique position to help other people because of our experiences.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And the more that I discover that. That's true. The more. The more grateful I become for my past, which is something that. That used to. When I heard people say, like, I'm. I'm a grateful alcoholic or I'm a grateful addict, in the back of my head, I'm like, oh, off. Like, you know, you're full of. Yeah, there's no way. And I'm starting to. I'm starting to, like, have a taste of that and to understand kind of what that means, what that meant, what that means. Yeah, and it's. It's. It's pretty cool.

[B]

Well, you can. You can also start being of service about anything. Right?

[C]

Right. Immediately.

[B]

Not just, like. Not just sobriety either. Like, I feel like I've taken that whole be of service to others and pay it forward. I've taken that not just in sobriety now, but I just do it in life in general. You know, if somebody at work's going through something, be there for him. Be of service to them. Or, like, if somebody needs something, if I can help them, I'll definitely help them. And that's, you know, something I learned from the rooms is just being of service to each other, because I feel like the reason God put us here is so we can go through things together and we can help each other rise from them. I think that's. That's, like, one of the biggest things that he Want. We're not supposed to do this alone.

[C]

No, absolutely. And in carrying, carrying principled living to every aspect of my life. Yeah, I think is what is what you're saying. I think it's so huge. I think people put, people will put barriers in, in the way that they act. It was like, am I around people in recovery or am I in, you know, am I in a recovery function or around people who understand addiction and things? Where am I around my family or am I at work or am I just, you know, checking out at Target? I, I, I remember once I was at a, I was at a meeting and this woman had like, had her, her son there and this guy was sharing in the meeting and it was like, you know, it's a fire share. That's what they, and it was just, it turned out that it was all, all because after the meeting the guy's walking out and the kid like steps on his shoes and I guess they're nice Jordans or some, and he explodes on this like little nine year old kid. And, and just to think you, you don't get to turn it off. Like, and, and in my experience, like, I don't, I don't want to turn it off. I, I want to, to figure out how to, how to live a life where I can be of more benefit to others than myself at some point. And pretty quickly, like if you're, if you really look at the whole thing pretty quickly, recovery stops being about drugs and alcohol. It starts being about, about myself and it starts being about me. Determining a better way to live life and a life that's like, based on true value and value through others and value through, through helping people and being of service and being there when people call and, and that's, that's obviously, you know, that's the biggest blessing to me, but it's also what I forget probably, you know, quicker than anything else. The only way that, that this, the success and sobriety that I have will continue is if I like continue to, to think about every aspect of my life as an area where I, where I can grow and learn and be, be more helpful. You know, give more to people like give, give more back to the world than what I take from it. It's like I, I had to, I had to like start thinking about life differently. And I think that it's essential. And, and if, if I put barriers up between my recovery world and the outside world, my recovery world and, and my relationships, my family, if there's barriers or if there's any kind of Incongruity between the way that I act and the way that I show up. It. There has to be some kind of selfish motion at like at the bottom of that. There has to be some kind of selfishness or self centeredness that I just can't have. Like I have to try to. To grow in every, every area and avenue.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Side note, have you guys watched the Charlie Sheen thing?

[C]

I haven't. I haven't yet.

[A]

Have you?

[B]

I have not. I watched him on Joe Rogan.

[A]

You dude, you need to watch that documentary. I mean he has a. A very. The badges on the outside. I mean you talk about some of the things that that guy was hiding for years. You know, hiv, Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I mean he admits to starting to have sex with men and like the, the documenter, the guy who is running it, asked him. He's like, how does that feel to like admit all of that right now? He's like, it's liberating. Like you see it in his face too. Like it really was to him. Like just. It's all out there now. Like he was being blackmailed by people.

[C]

Oh, this information.

[A]

Well, he was sleeping with women or men, I don't know. But he said that they were taking pictures of his medications in the bathroom and it's only for hiv. Like that's the only. That's all it's used for. And he would have to pay them so they wouldn't.

[B]

So they wouldn't tell.

[A]

Go tell or show or any of that. And so that kind of. I mean, you talk about a guy who been around burned. Yeah. The candle hard at both ends and coming through on the other end of it. And there's even a point at the end of it where he. The mother of one of his children that's older, she was still in the fight and he was helping her. Now. They had a really fractured relationship.

[C]

Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure that she was.

[A]

They were hugging each other at the end of it and stuff.

[B]

Was it Denise Richards or wasn't he with.

[A]

He was with Denise Richards.

[B]

He was with. Wasn't he with the porn star that.

[C]

He had a baby with?

[B]

Was it her?

[A]

Maybe. I. I didn't really.

[B]

That I have anything against porn stars. I love you.

[A]

Yeah. I didn't pay. I. I didn't really pay any attention to that other than it was one of the mother of his children that was going through some and he came back and was. Started to help her out and how good that was feeling to get everybody back on the same Page now his house has become a hub, kind of for everybody's kids and everything else. Super cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Should watch it. You should watch it. It's pretty neat.

[B]

That's Charlie. We'll take you on anytime you want to come on the podcast.

[C]

Yeah, I'll be here, too, Charlie.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Since I'm here, as I brought it up, I'll be. We're gonna get it. We'll get another chair. Yeah, I. I've. I've wondered, you know, I've thought about that, trying to get sober, like, as. As someone like that famous or that dude. Like, the.

[B]

Because you got to think the opportunity, right? The opportunity is like. And not only that, like, everywhere you go, like, I always joke with more on about me being famous, Right. I'm not famous, but, like, when people recognize me out, it's like, it's. It's awesome.

[C]

Right?

[B]

But I couldn't imagine, like, everywhere that I go, people running up and doing this and doing this and doing this. And then, like, what do you do for fun? Like, I've always said, like, when you have so much money, what do you do to really make yourself happy? I mean, you can buy anything, right?

[C]

You just rent out Six Flags.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You rent the whole thing out. Apparently, that's what. That was mine.

[A]

There's bars at Six Flags.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, that's right. Well, if you've run in the whole park, you close them down.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

For the day.

[B]

But, yeah, it's got to be, you know, and to his point, I watched a podcast one time where this. This was a basketball player, Michael porter. Michael Porter Jr. He was on a podcast, and he was talking about how when people start. He's been to parties with people that are famous, money, and, like, it's not just the different drugs that they're doing. They're bringing in men, they're bringing in women, they're bringing in.

[A]

They're.

[B]

They're sleeping with everybody. Right? And it's because the bar is so high of what they can't get, like, it. They can pretty much get anything they want.

[C]

Anything they want.

[B]

So, like, it's like when you watch porn, right? You first. You watch maybe a little lesbian porn, and then it's threesomes, and then it's, you know, ten girls in one. And then all of a sudden, regular sex doesn't even sound fun. I want to. Where's all the. Where's the ten girls at? Right? And that's how it kind of progresses from. There is these celebrities, a lot of times, they do so many drugs and then what? How much is enough? How much is enough? And the same with sex. How much. I mean, look at the. Should I say, should I talk about the Diddy parties? I mean, I mean that's, I mean that's, that's a prime example.

[C]

Right. Well, and, and the, the celebrity and like the adulation and the, the, the love and, and being recognized from other people isn't itself like an intoxicant. So I feel like it's probably like a drug, right? Exactly. Like you're already, you're already on the, on the, the brink of, of being high off of just like you said, getting recognized in the street. And then there's always some who's like, I want to do coke with Charlie Sheen.

[A]

Right? There's got to be a lot of care.

[C]

I don't care how long he's been sober. Like, I want to do coke.

[A]

But there's also got to be the, the next level of that where it's like he's all. He was almost rewarded for being the playboy or the coke guy.

[C]

Right?

[A]

He was like, he was still keep, they still kept force feeding them roles.

[C]

And Yeah, I mean they like biggest.

[A]

Movies of all time. And like he's still.

[B]

Wasn't he the high. Wasn't he the highest paid on a.

[C]

Sitcom when he was doing two and a half million? Yeah, but that role was like Charlie Sheen. If he had a brother and a young nephew, it was like just, hey, go out there and be yourself.

[A]

They talk about that in the, in the documentary. The guy who, I forget his name, but the guy who is like in charge of all sitcoms that you've ever known or seen. Norman Lear, I guess that's his name. He, he said that when they had the concept for that show, they pitched it and they said, yeah, we have this brother who kind of stumbles and can't get life right with a kid. And then we have a Charlie Sheen character. Like that's literally how he pitched it.

[C]

That's how he pitched it.

[A]

And then the, the people, the studio or whatever was like, well, can you get Charlie Sheen?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So that, that's literally how he got the show. He was like, we have this Charlie Sheen type guy that can do no wrong. And he was like, yeah, yeah, go just go get him to do it. So it was, it's pretty.

[C]

I definitely, I definitely want to check this, doc.

[A]

The reward of being who he was in all of the chaos has got to be really hard too. Like I can literally do whatever the. I want.

[B]

Winning.

[A]

Yeah. And and get rewarded by being the highest sitcom guy of all time.

[C]

Well, any. And he must have gotten to a point, I would imagine, when everything was, like, crumbling and falling away, where it's, like, it's so public and everyone knows. And, like, he couldn't walk down the street with someone, like, you know, not yelling tiger blood at them or whatever. It was, like, in my mind, winning. Yeah. Yeah. In my mind, I think that it would be so hard for me to give a. Like, if I had enough money to continue to burn it down. It would be so difficult for me not to just burn it down.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

If I was in Charlie Sheen's shoes.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I've always said that if I had enough, like, if I'm lucky, that I've always been in the. The, you know, socioeconomic class that I've been in, because if I had more money, I'd be dead.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I firmly believe that if I were or if I grew up in an area where. Where heroin was was the main thing. Yeah. I would definitely be dead because I'm not a good drug addict. Like, I'm pretty bad at it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

To be honest. You know, seriously, I'm really not good at it. If I grew up around heroin, I don't think I'd be here. I would have just overdid it so fast.

[B]

See, where I'm from, heroin wasn't a thing at all.

[C]

Like, there's no heroin inviter.

[B]

No. Well, there may be now, but when I was 21, when I moved here. No. There was, like, meth, there was ecstasy, There was acid, There was mushrooms. There's a lot of farms over there, but there wasn't. There's cocaine, but heroin. I never even knew what heroin looked like until I moved here. And then I seen, like, the black tar heroin.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And then I found out that you can smoke that and then you can inject and snort. I didn't even know you could snort it. Like, I was so dumb on heroin, but heroin was something like, my mom used to talk about, like, from the 60s and 70s, you know, it's like, that was nothing that I ever seen until I came here. And when I got here, like, heroin was not the biggest thing, but it was definitely big, you know?

[C]

Yeah. I had. I had. Had, like, minimal exposure when I. When I went to treatment the first time. Because I. I'm from a small town, northeast Texas. I went to school in a smart small town in Arkansas. Like, they. It's a. I think it's a rural thing. Like, the rural.

[B]

The bigger Cities.

[C]

Right. Heroin's like a kind of a bigger city thing. Pain pills and things have decimated, like, you know, know, rural populations. But in. In my area at least, I'm. I'm probably speaking too generalized terms. But in my area at least. Yeah. Heroin wasn't. I had some friends that eventually, like, started to go to Dallas to get. To get black tar heroin. Yeah. And there's going to be some heroin out there that listen to this and think, this guy's a. But what. What. What my friends did when. When I was 23 and. And we got this. They would get the. The tar and, like, diluted. Which. Should I explain this? Anyway, they. They basically mixed it with crushed up.

[B]

We're not condoning it.

[C]

We're not condoning this at all. But they basically mixed it with, like, crushed up acetaminophen. And that's what we were snorting. It was like Tylenol and heroin.

[A]

Yucky.

[B]

Really?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Just in case you got a headache.

[C]

Yeah. You know, I just kind of walked into this whole. Whole circumstance one day, and then. And then, like three weeks later, I was going to treatment.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

There wasn't. But then when I went to treatment, I came to Austin afterwards for. To go to sober living. This is like 2012. And I got a real, like, a real lesson in, like, what drug use could look like by listening to people. And there was still a part of me in the back of my mind that was like, I'm. You know, I want to try that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, I. I tried. I had done some IV drugs even before I got out of high school. I. I had done some IV drugs, but never to any, like, real extent.

[B]

That was one thing I never got into. That scared me.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's. I remember when I used to see people do a heroin. I would be like, I'm. I'm smoking meth and doing hot rails. And I'm like, oh, my God, they're over there doing heroin.

[A]

Terrible.

[B]

They're junkies.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Or when someone would, like, take shots of meth.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Inject it. Like, I remember the first time someone asked me to give him a shot in their neck. I was like. I was like, of what? And he was like, meth. And, you know, he was getting it all ready for it. And I was thinking, God damn, this guy's got a problem. And like, I'm doing an eight ball of meth a day, but I'm doing it the gentleman way.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And this guy's got a problem. He's not going to make it. And he Says, you're asking me to shoot you in the neck. Yeah, I'll do it. I don't foot. But yeah, I, that, that it was. It's so funny whenever I think about it now because I was so judgmental, if someone was doing heroin, shooting heroin or shooting meth, I was like, oh my God, they've got a problem. Yeah, like there, there, there, there's, there's, there's some real problems here for this person.

[C]

Right? This is a serious issue.

[B]

Not looking at myself like, here I.

[C]

Am smoking a bowl over there, rolling like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's funny when, at all the rehabs that you went to, do you think that because this would be everybody's answer to this would be different? Do you think that you learn stuff at each one that you picked up all the way through and it made like. Or did you, do you think sometimes it was I didn't learn nothing there or. Because sometimes people say, even though I've been to 10 rehabs, I don't feel like any of them was a waste because I picked up a little bit here, a little bit there, a little bit.

[C]

Right. Like, is it like an accumulative. Right thing? I mean, yeah, obviously, yeah. I think the answer to that is, is yes. The thing, the thing that when I went, when I went to treatment this time is that I had to pretend like I didn't know because the, my cum. The accumulative knowledge that I, that I had, you know, gathered had got. I'd been drunk for the last two years or, or, you know, and then eventually at the very end, back on cocaine really pretty severely.

[A]

So.

[C]

Obviously I still know the things that I've learned, right? And there is some kind of accumulatory, like, accumulation of knowledge and experience. I think there's just, there's just some that you have to let go of. And I think that a lot. I think sometimes it's like too much knowledge or, you know, the presumption that I have a certain amount, amount of knowledge can be dangerous. So when I went through this time, I, I tried to break it down.

[A]

To the bare metal, right?

[C]

Break it down the bare metal. Like feign ignorance. Like you, you tell me what to do, I'll do it. I'm. I'm not going to question it. And then let's, let's go from there because the things that I thought I knew were probably going to get me killed. And it's funny, they, when I was in there, they took me to a meeting maybe like a month in, and a good Friend of mine who actually was my very first sponsor, and I saw him at a meeting, and he had just gotten out of a treatment center that he was in for, like, two months. And we're at this meeting on a Saturday morning, and I. I shared something, and it was like a newcomer meeting. I shared something because I. I haven't. Like, I have a knowledge base. You. You said I should be teaching this, you know. Yeah. Which made me stop learning. But I had shared something. My friend looked over at me and this is someone who's. Who's been in and out a lot. And when he. When he was on, he helped a lot of people and he really knew his. And he did a lot of good for people. And then when. And then he would just have these catastrophic, you know, failures and falling off and. And I shared. And he. And he, like, joked with me. He was like, you know, way too much. You're like, you're. And I was like, dude, if I. If I'm like, you're so screwed because you know three times as much as I did.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And literally a month later, I found out he was dead. Damn. So there isn't. There is an extent where, you know. Yeah. The knowledge is accumulative, but I. But I have to always be searching for a different perspective on what I know and what I think and. And be willing to be coachable. Yeah. To be teachable.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

To admit that maybe I'm wrong. Like, I was wrong about. About you.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And now I love you.

[B]

I know.

[C]

You know, I love you too. And I've. And I've been wrong about a lot of things. And. And the more. The more apt I am to admit error or to open myself up to different interpretation, like, the better off I am. Yeah. No matter how much I know. Yeah. You always have to be teachable.

[A]

Yeah. Rogan says it a lot, and it's something that kind of changed the way that I think, but it's like, you don't be married to anything that you think be married to it. Like, always be open to listen to the contradiction of it, because you might be able to pull something out of it and it might change the way that you. You think about that thing, and that's okay. It's not a problem. It's not an issue to do that. So, I mean, I. I think for what it's worth, me being the here man, it sounds like you're well on your way. Like, God.

[C]

Hope so. Yeah, dude, I really hope so. Yeah.

[A]

So I want to talk to you about Solstice Okay. Because you were there.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Absolutely. See the smile we get from Solstice, dude?

[A]

When Cole was sitting there and we had Cole in here, he would bring up names, huh? And you would just see him, like, just light the up.

[B]

It was insane how many people he remembered.

[C]

Dude, I bet he remember, like, every person that went through that.

[B]

He probably does.

[C]

He probably does.

[A]

He does. He went through his Rolodex there, you know, like, in his mind, and he would just. He would just, like, light up, dude. You could just see it in him, like, where it was. And I, I know how special that was and how grateful I am for that place just because of who I have here. And I know that you were there at that time. I just. I want to hear you talk about that spot a little bit.

[C]

So I, I. I had worked in at a treatment center for like, a year and a half, and I had been to treatment three times. Solstice was my. My fourth time in treatment. So I have a lot of preconceived notions about what, what treatment it's supposed to look like.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And what. Yeah, you know, what, you know, real recovery looks like. And then I, as. I'm going to. To Solstice, My sponsor at the time who. Who had got me in there was like, listen, buddy, this place is a little different. Yeah, a little different. And, and I. And I get there, and I'm just like, you know, the. Is this the blind leading the blind here? This is either. This is either the. The smartest, like, greatest thing ever, or this is going to be a disaster.

[A]

Right?

[C]

And it was one of the greatest things ever because they, they. They allowed you. I think they allowed us to find. To find a path of recovery without, like, without restraining us. And the only real restraints that we had or, you know, constraints on personality or the way that we, like, spoke to each other and reacted to things. The only, like, real restraints and constraints was that we were in this building together and didn't have phones.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Other than that, there was no, like, no, like, real time, like behavior modification or accountability. It's like, you guys, you guys, your brothers now. Figure this out, and we'll give you some guidelines. Yeah, and I remember the first time we went to see a movie, they're like, all right, we're stopping at Buc EE's. Everyone's got $7, and you're gonna have to sneak this shit into the movie. And I'm like, what? I was like, what are we doing? Like, this is. This is insane. You're all Right. So. And I was like, rigorous honesty. This doesn't seem right, but it's like, it was just.

[B]

Man, it was a rehab like no other.

[C]

Yeah, like no other. Yeah. I mean, that couple of people there. Have you had. Have you had Johnny on?

[B]

No. So I. We need to get Johnny on. Johnny's always. He's one of the only people that when I talk to him, I'm intimidated to talk to him because he's so smart.

[C]

Right. But he's also, like, maniacally intelligent. Yes. He's.

[B]

He's just too intelligent for me. And it makes me uncomfortable. Right. Because I'm not the most. I'm not the smartest person out there by any means. Seven letter words and less, and that's where I stay. But Johnny, like, when he was my sponsor, he would tell me and it'd be like, I don't even know what the fuck you just said.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you have to dumb that down for me, because I have no clue what you're even talking about right now. But no, he was at sets. He was at Seth's funeral. We both spoke and he. His. Hit me. He spoke amazing. You know, Johnny. We need to get Johnny on here, and I know he'll come on.

[A]

If there's anything I know about two addicts in a moron, we're not really smart. All right. Like, you know. Well, we had smart people over there, that chair. We're just like. We're like, huh.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

How many of these books have been read?

[B]

None.

[C]

None of them have, like, a crease. Yeah, that's the David Goggins book I've done.

[A]

Anybody who sat on that couch that wrote a book, I read it and I've read the Goggins.

[C]

Hell, yeah. Yeah.

[A]

There's a couple on there that Stu's had in there to make us look smart, but we're not. Like, I honestly thought about, like, putting in, like, Shakespeare or something.

[C]

Oh, yeah. Just.

[A]

It was like.

[B]

Should definitely read.

[A]

Dude, that crooked smile is Crooked Smile Insane.

[C]

Dude.

[A]

Like, that's an insane.

[B]

What's the place in LA that he lived.

[A]

He. He lived on in the.

[B]

The homeless place in la.

[C]

That's Skid Row.

[A]

Skid Row.

[B]

He lived in SK for two years. So Rogan and them talked about that book. What's the other guy's name? The comedian that always does. Donald Trump.

[A]

Yeah. Shane Gillis.

[B]

Shane Gillis. Shane Gillis and Matt McCust talked about that.

[C]

He talked about the.

[A]

Yeah, they had him on. They had him on their podcast. It was. You talk about the Wild of wild. Like, his stories are great.

[B]

Go watch back and watch his podcast, Kleinstein and how.

[A]

How smart? Yeah, super smart, intelligent, like that. Like, I actually got, like, a lot of. A lot of. Not a lot, but criticism during that episode because of how smart he was, you know, like, they were like, man, he. He got you a couple times.

[C]

You couldn't keep up with him.

[A]

Yeah, it was. It was really tough on his intelligence level.

[B]

Our supervisor called us and said, yo, y' all need to get that dude a job with us. Because he's so, like, for being an addict and still knowing things about the world and economy and everything that's going on, it was insane. His knowledge was. Was. It was stupid. It really was it. I was just sitting here. I didn't ask no questions. Like, get him.

[A]

Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, so drugs, they're bad, right? He's like, yeah, dude. I mean, like, I ate my face off and cut a toe off. Like, he did those things. Like, he, like, ate half of his face, like, in a blackout and.

[C]

Jesus.

[A]

And removed a bun from his toe.

[C]

Did he saute it? Like, how did he.

[B]

He sawed off? Out of bone. Out of his toe? Like.

[A]

No, removed the bone. Like, the toe.

[C]

Like, the toe was still there, but.

[A]

The bone was out of it. And it took the doctors a minute to figure out what the. Because the toe's there and there. And it took him a couple of days to like, be like, it doesn't look great. Something is amiss.

[C]

Yeah, something's missing.

[B]

Here's a good story I may. I think I've told you before. So when at solstice, when they would bring us to Bucky's and give us our seven dollar allowance. Seven dollars isn't much.

[C]

No, it's not.

[B]

So every time I went in there, I stole about 30 bucks worth of. And I would come back. So I had. I mean, we're supposed to run an honest program in there. But I was like, this is going to be my one fault. So I would steal about $30 in candy or I would always get my daughter a little doll out of there, right? And then when. When Brody picked me up from rehab.

[A]

You stopped at Bucky's?

[B]

I had to tell him, like, all right, it's about time I start making these financial amends. I said, you have 100, 150 bucks on you. He's like, yeah, why? So we gotta stop at Buc EE's. So I walked in and I gave the cashier some money, and she's like, where's your items? I said, I've been stealing from y' all for a good month now.

[C]

Weekly for a month, I've taken whatever I want.

[B]

Every Friday, I was in here stealing from y'.

[C]

All.

[B]

It's about 100, 120 bucks. Here it is. I apologize.

[C]

I was gonna ask you if you. You made that amends. You did it immediately with someone else's money.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What a sweeth.

[C]

Yeah, that is, actually. That's. I remember when you called me about an amends. One of the. I don't know. I don't remember who it was that you were doing. Administrative. You called me to kind of.

[B]

Yeah. With my daughter's mom. Yeah, I called you and kind of.

[C]

That was a big one.

[B]

That was a big one.

[C]

You really thought. You thought highly of me?

[B]

Yeah, I called you and I. What? Like, you're one of the smartest people that I know, like. And I don't. I'm not just saying that because on this podcast, that's why I didn't like you. That's one of the reasons I was like, this guy's too smart for me. I don't like you. But as I got to know you, I was like, he's actually a fucking cool dude. And that whole. That whole judgmental character defect that we all have.

[C]

Glaring. Yeah, mine's glaring as well, because I did the same.

[A]

I think it's everybody's. I would argue that that's probably a character defect of every human being out there.

[C]

Very few people can can say, let's.

[A]

Be like, yeah, I just don't judge anyone.

[B]

I used on in my addiction. I used to tell people, I'm the most non judgmental person you'll ever meet.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I am judging you right now. I'm judging the heroin addict over there because I'm doing what.

[C]

Because you're way worse than they're doing heroin.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Smoking your man, you're just wasting it. Just.

[B]

That's what my buddy told me. He's like, so the people that were smoking, you know, they were wasting it, right? Like, I don't know. They were. Looked like they were getting high to me. No, you got to shoot that. I was like, okay, yeah. All right, cool.

[A]

So what does sobriety look like for you now? Just, what's life like?

[C]

Life. What's life like? So I work, you know, I work a few days a week at a. At a treatment center that handles mental and emotional health issues primarily. And then there's some substance abuse thrown on, and I. And I'm a tech and I help, help those people get whatever they need and stay comfortable and, and do things. And then I, you know, hit a few meetings. I have, I, I add a sober living that I help to manage. It's like an apartment complex where the, the guys from the treatment center that I went through, they get out, they come to this apartment complex, I manage it. I, I do odd jobs, I'm a handyman, I do different odd jobs. And I feel the, the amount of like the freedom I have in, in my day to day for now is, is I've really been able to like sit and kind of get comfortable with myself again and get comfortable with other people in different environments. And so the, you know, I haven't technically even had a full time job yet since I, since I got out of treatment.

[A]

Sounds like you do.

[C]

I mean, well, yeah, yeah, I've got so much going on that I'm definitely busy, but I haven't had to like, you know, go back in. Before I went into treatment, I was a superintendent for a company called servpro, like fix and flood fire damage. So I was in Florida six months last year trying to, trying to fix some, some flood damage from a hurricane.

[A]

Florida is a wild place.

[C]

It's insane. Yeah, it's Eu Florians out there are a different breed.

[A]

Yeah, it's.

[C]

And I thought like, you know, I lived in Arkansas, lived in Texas, I've seen some rednecks, but Florida's a different place, man. Florida's different. But I haven't had to, you know, eventually I'll, I'll get myself a, a real full time big boy job again. But for now I have a little bit of freedom. I get to, you know, go where I want and talk to the people that I want to and, and try to help and it's pretty fulfilling. I, you know, when people call me, I answer. When they need me to show up, I show up. Like the real, real basics of life are handled and that, that's such a blessing that, that like I, I know, I know eventually my life will continue to expand and get bigger and that new opportunities will come along and, and I'll, I'll take them as they come. For now I'm, I'm very satisfied with, with where I'm at and what I get to do on a daily basis.

[A]

So all that's great. What do you do for fun, dude?

[C]

What do I do for fun? Like, so.

[A]

This is like, I, I should ask this question more because I think it's important for people to Know that they can live a fulfilling life. All the things that you just said.

[C]

Last week, I, I saw. Saw Cody and Cambria Live. I saw the Pixies the week before. I've been going to a lot of concerts. I'm flying to Vegas on October 4th to watch Paul McCartney with my big sister.

[A]

Nice.

[C]

I've been trying to catch up on, on music. I read a lot, which is like, you know, that is my relaxation. I go to the gym a lot. I.

[A]

What?

[C]

I was playing pickleball with you a couple weekends ago. I mean, I play softball. I, you know, a little volleyball. A little volleyball? Yeah. And, and the thing is, it's like I find enjoyment and I can find enjoyment anything that I'm doing. Yeah. That's the thing is like you as. I don't have to, I don't have to feel like I'm. I'm going out to do some kind of special activity for things to be fun. I know that for those of you out there looking for the answer to that question of like, what do you do when you're sober? That seems like a cop out, but it's really not like, like I find more fulfillment, I think in, in most day to day activities and, and just life in general that, you know, my days get filled. But for official fun, I would say, you know, I've been going to concerts, bowling, some alumni activities with other people that have been through the treatment center. I went through. And through some of our sister programs. So hanging out with, with you know, different people in recovery. And then, you know, I, I guess we were kind of talking about this earlier is that, you know, sometimes I look around and I'm like, I don't think I've talked to a normal person in weeks. You know, you're welcome. I am like, yeah, there you are. Yeah.

[A]

So you know, the old moron.

[C]

So sometimes it's like, you know, I, I just go hang out with friends who have, who have, you know, no dog in this fight or no. No real addiction issues and just kind of, just to kind of. I, I don't know. It's not to, to get away from it because I'm well aware that I never get away from, from who I am. Sure. But sometimes I feel like it is. It's nice to hear that, that normal person's perspective on things.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, you know, whatever constitutes normal. Yeah. Mine's ever changing.

[B]

I think it also shows like some growth on your end too, like where you don't have to stay away from certain people. You know, what I mean, right. Like they say. They say in the, in the book that you should be able to go wherever you want. You should get to. You should be able to get to a place to where. To where you can go wherever you want and not feel right and not.

[C]

Feel awkward or feel like, you know, how am I gonna go do this?

[A]

Sober?

[B]

Yeah. Like, I'm not gonna go to a wedding because they're going to be drinking there.

[C]

Right.

[B]

My sister's gonna go to a concert because there's gonna be alcohol there.

[C]

Yeah. My sister's getting married second week of October and I'm pretty sure that it's going to be a huge party because she told people not to bring their kids.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Which I think is a good.

[A]

That's pretty much the neon sign. That's the neon sign. Let's get up.

[C]

Yeah. Her invitations are like, leave the kids at home. And I'm excited. Like I'm. I'm excited to go. Yeah, it's gonna. It's gonna be a blast.

[A]

All right. So you've seen a ton of con. Or not maybe not a ton, but you've seen a lot of content.

[C]

Not a ton. But I'm starting to go to more and more.

[A]

Okay, so over the last year while you've been sober. Let's just call it that. What's your favorite concert that you've been to so far? What's the coolest one? You dropped some cool names there.

[C]

I mean I saw Deftones when they were here, so that's absolutely. I was on. I was on like on the floor. I spent like 500 on. On my ticket and went alone and didn't give a. Because it was amazing.

[A]

Dude. But that's the one of my favorite bands of all time.

[C]

They're so damn good and in live. Like he was so good live. Dude.

[A]

Did you listen to the new album?

[C]

I have not listened to the new album yet.

[A]

It's blow it. That's almost the mind blowing thing to me is the. The new album is great. I loved it cover to cover and being a follower of the Deftone since I was like 12 and seeing. And now at 40 and they're still putting out an album that's really great music.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And it's different and it's blows me away.

[C]

I'm going to. I'm going to listen to it on the way home.

[A]

It's really good.

[C]

You're the third person that you know, you. Everyone. I think everyone's hesitant to listen to a band like that's new album when they've been around for so long.

[A]

Always. Dude, Metallica put.

[C]

It's. That's exactly what you say is Metallica or. I. I was never a huge Guns N Roses fan, but. Yeah, when. When they came out with whatever.

[A]

Appetite for Destruction.

[C]

Yes. Yeah. I remember just the. The collective, like, just.

[B]

I always. I always thought the same thing when Linkin park would come out with a new one.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[B]

They're gonna. And it's crazy because they changed their music through the years.

[C]

Did a.

[A]

Really.

[B]

Because they get older and they become dads and. But they still pop out really good music. And even when. When. When the guy killed himself. Yeah, whenever he killed himself. We went and watched them when they came to Austin a few months ago. The girl's phenomenal.

[C]

That's what I've. I've watched some videos of her.

[B]

She's amazing. She works the crowd really well. And, like, it's still Lincoln park, but now they have a female on there and rest in peace to him. But, man, she does a phenomenal job. Like, I was real hesitant when my buddy gave. Gave us tickets. I was like, yeah, but it's Lincoln park without.

[C]

Right. Right.

[B]

How good is she? And then I started watching some videos of their newer songs, and I was like, oh, she actually. And she can sing. Amazing.

[A]

Yeah. The Deftones in Pantera are like, my favorite bands from just.

[C]

Pantera was just here.

[A]

I don't. I don't want to go see him.

[C]

I. I understand.

[A]

And. And it's just. And I. And it's different. I. I'm sure it's amazing. I love Zack Wild. And the drummer from Anthrax is great.

[C]

Yeah, it's different, but it's also like.

[A]

I know what Dimebag and Vinnie both felt about a reunion. They both were against it. And the only reason why it's happening is because they're dead.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And I. And to me, I know it just gives me a little feeling like this only is happening because two members of this band are gone.

[B]

So you think if they were here, they would have never.

[A]

They would have never got back together? No, because Phil and Rex were always pushing for it, and they were just staunchly against it. And Vinnie, whenever Dime got killed, assassinated on stage, he was against it because he was like, Pantera's four people. And you're. That's my little brother that I watched it shot in the face on stage. And that was like my right arm. My. Yeah, that was my everything. And you're asking me to go play the songs that we wrote together as a collective of Four. So Pantera is four people. And if we don't have one of them, Pantera is not a thing. And Vinnie said that before he died, and that made a lot of sense to me, like, as a guy who has a brother, you know, it's like the. It wasn't about money. It wasn't about. Because he would have made.

[C]

Right. Boatloads of money come back. Yeah.

[A]

And he wasn't about that. It was about the principle. The principle and the loss of his brother. Like, I. I don't want to go up there and play those songs without him. Like, it's just too painful. And then he passes away.

[C]

That's really just a Pantera cover band.

[A]

We get a Pantera, like, reunion. Yeah. And. And I love them, and I. I appreciate what they're doing, but it's just. It. It's a little too awkward or weird for me, but.

[B]

Was Dimebag your favorite, favorite guitar player? Yes.

[A]

Dude, that's. Yeah. I mean, he's up there. I think he's definitely top five.

[B]

Who's your top three guitar players? Do you have any guitar players?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is the new question we've never asked.

[C]

Yeah, this is the one you've never asked.

[B]

Give me your top three, too.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I'll let you go first.

[C]

You're the guest. I always. I always. For some reason, I always. Flip flop. Which one? The guitarist for Zeppelin is. Is. It's Jimmy Page. Yeah. Paige is a guitarist and plants the singer.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Jimmy Page, man, that's really hard. Eric Clapton in Cream.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Man, I'm such a traditionalist. I mean, I would say Jimi Hendrix, probably.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, like, any. Yeah, any top three is gonna have to have Jimmy in there. Like, nothing would look the way that it does now. And you can make that argument for Jimmy Page as well.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Without him, I'm gonna be driving home.

[C]

And be like, oh, man, I sound like a. The Three everyone knows. But honestly, like, I don't know who you have.

[A]

Eddie Van Halen, too, dude. Eddie.

[C]

I was never a Van Halen fan, but I don't know. But he can. Yeah, he can play the guitar. The guitar lyrics were just a insane.

[A]

I mean, Randy Rhodes, y', all, like, Stevie Ray Vaughn. Loves you.

[C]

Yeah, he's fantastic.

[B]

Yeah. Love CB who's the other dude that does. Is it Bonamassa?

[A]

Joe Bonamassa is awesome.

[B]

He's pretty phenomenal.

[A]

Yeah, Joe Bonamassa is great. I mean, there's so many. That's really hard. And it's. You know, music is subjective. Right. Like, my Favorite bands are Pantera and.

[C]

Except for the Beatles. People that say they don't like the Beatles, I just. I'm just like.

[A]

So I like the Beatles. I can. I'll appreciate you saying that you don't like the Beatles, but you have to give them the right.

[C]

I think that they're. Most people who say they don't like the Beatles are just being contrarian. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Is this where you tell us that you don't. They're just being the opposite.

[B]

So here's.

[C]

Is this where you tell us that you don't like the Beatles?

[B]

No. No. But I will tell you, I don't know a Beatles song unless y' all told me what it is. And I'm sure I've heard a bunch of them.

[A]

Oh, you've heard, but I don't know.

[C]

Hundreds you've heard, and.

[B]

And I heard one time, a long time ago that music today, like, 90% of it that is played comes from something that the Beatles did. Does that make sense?

[A]

But the. But if you listen to John Lennon and. And the guitar players Slip on my mind, I should know his name, too.

[C]

Paul McCartney.

[A]

George Harrison. George Harrison.

[C]

Paul McCartney's the basis.

[A]

George Harrison seemed to me of McCartney. Lennon were like the. The wordsmiths, but Harrison was the musician. The musician.

[C]

Yeah, I think so, too.

[A]

And if you can listen to George Harrison's, like, interviews, and he's throwing. He's like Muddy Waters, like.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, he's.

[C]

While My Guitar Gently is probably one of my. Is probably my favorite Beatles song.

[A]

You ever see Prince do that?

[C]

Yes, I have, dude.

[A]

Yeah. At the Rock and Roll hall of Fame when he got inducted.

[C]

It's insane.

[A]

He did My Guitar Gently Weeps, and I was like, holy.

[C]

Really slept on Prince as a guitar player, a musician.

[A]

Yeah. As a musician, he played everything.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So that. I mean, that's. Music is so subjective and, like, Dime is just my favorite guy. But I. This is. I saw him when I was 11 years old. It was my first concert, and I remember seeing a metal band, like, up there having the time of their lives. Like, you know, usually metal is, like, very serious and.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But Dime was, like, smiling and running around the stage with his guitar and, you know, like, acting like he's, you know, the bass player and with his guitar. It was just. It was fun. It was like. It. It was a unique band to me. Me, like, it probably had to do with me being 11 and being like, holy.

[C]

Hell, yeah. Very successful. 11. Pantera is fantastic, though. Yeah. Anyway, anywhere, if you're ever around Dallas talking to people who are like, older.

[A]

Texas.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, they all have, like, some kind of, like, Pantor. Pantera story.

[A]

Yeah, they're like.

[C]

There was, like. There was a. I ran into Dime One, right. There's been. I've had multiple ladies that worked at treatment centers that I. That I was in. Like, yeah, I used to hang out at Baby Dolls. And, yeah, I knew them. And, yeah, I've had multiple people tell me.

[A]

The Clubhouse.

[C]

Yeah, the Clubhouse.

[A]

Yeah, the clubhouse was theirs.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Was Vinnie and Strip club, of course. And obviously Baby Dolls.

[C]

Yeah, Baby Dolls.

[B]

The Clubhouse. But I think every big city has a Baby Dolls.

[A]

I was probably 30 when I went there for a bachelor party. And I mean, they were just playing nothing but metal in there the whole time. That was like Rage against the Machine and, like, just.

[B]

That's the only band that I haven't seen that I would love to see them in. Offspring, right? Against the Machine. I've never seen them. Offspring was just here, and I didn't know that they were just here, otherwise I wouldn't watch them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All time favorite. And then Five Finger Death Punch.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is the best them. They put on the best show that I've ever seen. I've been to probably 200 concerts, and believe it or not, Nickelback, dude puts on one of the greatest concerts I've ever seen.

[C]

And I've just going to.

[A]

Bro.

[B]

I went to watch Nick. I went to watch other bands and not Nickelback. We were going to leave, but Nickelback was the mainliner. And we were like, well, we're already here. My buddy didn't want to leave. That I was there with. And I'm like, I guess we'll watch these losers, bro. They killed. I was. They killed so much that every time they came to Austin, I bought tickets to go watch them again. That wasn't. It was insane. But people, for some reason, just hated them.

[C]

My sister saw Creed maybe.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Six months ago and said, they killed it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So they were badass. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So Charlie Sheen documentary on Netflix. The Nickelback.

[C]

Oh, the Nickelback documentary. Yeah.

[A]

I was in the camp of Nickelback until I watched that. And I was like, these guys. I mean, they. They leaned into the. Everybody hates us, but they're like, they hate us so bad that we keep filling up stadiums.

[C]

Right.

[A]

You know, so, like. But they were very upfront about it, and they were like, something weird happened. We wrote a ballad and then it was like, that band, like, they suck. But if you. And then I. I went and put Them on itunes or whatever. I was like, these are not bad songs. Yeah. After the. The ones that were on the radio or whatever. Like the ones outside of it, I.

[C]

Was like, I mean, they did this the same thing to Green Day when they wrote Time of Our Lives.

[A]

A little bit like Green Day was a little bit fathered in too.

[C]

Yeah. But I remember reading a magazine article and I had to be pretty young when that song came out that it was calling Green Day posers and.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And how everyone was going to turn against them. They're still huge.

[A]

Yeah. They put out another record right after that and it was awesome. And like. Yeah, it's. We've talked about this before, but it's like as. And you just said it. But as guys get older, changes with them. They go through different experiences. Right. Metallica puts out the first three albums and they're just Brimstone. Brimstone and Hellfire.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like all of them, they're just as heavy as it gets and crazy. And then they're like. And nothing else matters. It's like, dude, they grew up. They became 40 year old men who battled addiction. And like all this like, can't just be.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Mind bending, crushing.

[C]

And at this point, if they were putting out the same. The same exact style, people would be saying that, you know, they're just redundant or.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, unless you're Slayer.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Slayer. Get there ain't no ballads in. In Slayer's catalog.

[B]

Like I've been to a Slayer and Hate Breed concert.

[A]

That's so good.

[B]

And the mosh pit was like insane.

[A]

Yeah, it was stupid for like 3 songs. Cuz it's a lot of old dudes.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like me. They get tired.

[B]

This was like 20 years ago.

[A]

Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.

[B]

This was 20 years.

[A]

They're in the middle of it. Yeah, dude. But corn.

[B]

I like corn too. Corn's always one.

[C]

I've heard that Corn concerts are amazing. Yeah, I've heard they're really good live.

[A]

They're really good.

[B]

I went to watch Corn. Yeah, they were really good.

[C]

If they come back around, I'll definitely. We were supposed. Remember we're supposed to see Modest Mouse.

[B]

Modest Mouse, remember?

[C]

So.

[B]

So when Corn. It was the Family Values tour. Remember that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it was Corn and there was some other good. It was Family Value Store. Always has good.

[A]

They were great.

[B]

And corn. When Jonathan Davis came out, he said, we were in the pit, but it had been raining and they had like plywood on the ground for you to stand on. And it was all muddy and Wet already. And then he come out with a fire hose and sprayed everybody right from the get go. Like a fire. Fire hose.

[C]

No shit.

[B]

And then they played the song Blind. Blind.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And if you know the song Blind, like for the first two minutes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just ramping you up.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And then once they. It just went crazy.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And yeah, corn was amazing.

[B]

Corn was awesome. Well, so we need to go to some concerts.

[C]

Yeah, dude, we should do a two.

[A]

Addicts and a little gathering at a concert. I think that'd be fun.

[B]

That'd be tight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Tote. Tight. Tote.

[C]

Tote. I don't know. Toy like a toy.

[A]

No, toy like man's anis. Right after he says toy like a tiger, Dwight. Like Manza Ennis.

[C]

Like man's honest.

[A]

Yeah. Well, look, I think we got another one in the books here. You know, we got our special delivery of Chipotle coming in the house right now.

[C]

Yes. Perfectly timed.

[A]

Yeah, perfectly. Thank you so much for coming in, dude.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

I appreciate it. And I do want to get a little selfish here and talk about our trip to Iowa.

[C]

Yeah, let's do it a little bit.

[A]

Give a.

[C]

We.

[A]

We got invited to go to a. A sober event in Iowa. Here recently was the first time our clown show ever got asked.

[B]

Went on the road.

[C]

Yeah, I saw some video.

[A]

Yeah, man, it was.

[B]

We're actually going to post some more stuff now.

[A]

Yeah, we have some more content coming soon to. To everybody but Marshalltown, Iowa, God's Way Ministry. Great host, put on a great event and saw it fit for our dumb asses to be out there. And I mean, it was one of the biggest honors of my life. It's weird to say that being sent to Marshalltown, Iowa was a. Was an honor of my life, but it really was. Yeah, those people were so good. All the guys in the houses, bro.

[B]

The nicest sober living I've ever seen in my life.

[C]

Really, dude.

[B]

Yeah, they. So the guy that. That brought us up there, he runs. He's only been doing it for what, a year?

[A]

A year and a half.

[B]

A year and a half. He bought one sober living, got another one and they got another one. It was the nicest. It made. It makes this place look like. I mean, he had a. A nice. Really nice setup for these guys. It was insane.

[A]

The backyard was.

[C]

How many. How many guys in the house are we talking?

[B]

What, at each house was like eight maybe he had.

[A]

I think he said there was nine. Was it nine that at the one we were at. And then you Had a couple others that we didn't get to go to, but apparently they kind of use this one as sort of a hub. They're all very close to each other, like, barbecuing, and they were just barbecuing, and. And the guys couldn't have been any nicer. All super cool.

[B]

It was kind of like the guys that we had at Solstice. If you could imagine a group of those type guys at this sober living all together. It was pretty tight, dude.

[C]

If we all went to sober living together.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It would have been mayhem.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

In the. In the best way possible.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, you. I think you get enough dudes around each other, and. Yeah, it'll end up being mayhem whether there's drugs there or not.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Like, hey, just gonna.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Be endless farts and dick jokes. Yeah. Like giving. Giving dudes pink eye. Rubbing your ass on their pillows. Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, it was. It was awesome. Rob was awesome.

[A]

Rob was great. Kelsey.

[B]

Kelsey was awesome.

[A]

Was great.

[B]

And all the guys that we met, I've been keeping in contact with a couple. Couple of them really cool dudes. It was. It was crazy because they. They acted as if, like, we were such a. We were like celebrities coming out there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we're far from that. And we were just honored just to be there.

[A]

Yeah. It was our honor. But these. These guys were it. It was.

[C]

These guys were stoked. Knew who you were. Been listening to you, like, so pumped.

[A]

Yeah. That is in Iowa.

[C]

That's amazing. That's so awesome.

[A]

But that blew me away.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I. I still. I still struggle with, like, it was that. It was that trip that really set in my sight that I need to stop putting bars on this thing, like, putting ceilings on it. Because if you would have told me a year and a half ago that we were going to be in here and it was going to take us to a little town in Iowa at a big sober event, and we were going to be representing a brand, speaking.

[B]

In front of hundreds of people, speaking.

[A]

At a thing, and they would give a. It was. It was insane. It was really.

[B]

There was a moment when we were. Me, him, and Destiny were there, and where we eat, we're. We're using these in the hotel or eating or something. I was like, y' all realize that our podcast has us in Iowa?

[A]

Yeah, man.

[B]

It was. It was so surreal. You know, it was really a cool, cool, cool thing.

[A]

It still is, man. Like, when we were there, like, it was probably every night where it was, like, it was heavy, like, it was heavy on me. Like, before I was going to sleep, I was like, man, like, we have a responsibility here. Like now it's like a real responsibility, you know, like to, to do this. Before, it was just a couple coming into a room and speaking into a dick shaped mic. Yeah. But now it's something.

[C]

Yeah, you're like some, some like harbinger of hope to, to these people, like these guys, you know, but your story will be too. I mean, I hope so. You know, and, and all the, the people that I've listened to that you guys have had on, it's like you guys have platformed a lot of, I think a lot of growth and recovery.

[A]

For people, but I feel like it's a lot of. It has to do with you coming here to sit here and everybody that's on this wall.

[B]

You know, you're definitely the most important of the three, the two addicts and a. Whoever sits there is literally the most important person to the show.

[A]

I mean, you're bringing a whole new perspective. You're bringing a whole different thing, and we'll never lose sight of that. And I, and I say it all the time and I'll leave you, and we'll leave you with this. But I know that you came in here and you're very intelligent. You got your together and you made that look really easy. But it's not, man. Like, it's not easy to come in here and get vulnerable on a platform where a lot of people are going to listen and see it. Right. But for you guys to come in and do that is. I'll never lose sight of. Of how important that chair is. It's way more important than ours. So thank you so much for coming on here and I. We should definitely do it again. And I'll say this, leave everybody with this, but I know you're at Sober Livings and you're a tech at a place you're very involved. You ever need us for anything, you let us know. We'll come running. We'd be happy to. To involve ourselves in anything that you've got a part of and. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[A]

Yeah, I.

[C]

It's been, it's been, it's been a pleasure, guys. I really appreciate y' all having me on. Yeah, dude, honestly, thank you. Thank you. It kind of feels, honestly, it's such a, it's such a blessing to have something to say that might be of benefit to somebody, dude. So, yeah, for y' all to allow, you know, the opportunity to say it and hopefully it resonates with somebody that. That's amazing.

[A]

And if it's one of them, dude, and it's gonna, you know, at minimum, you're gonna. Something you said on here is going to. To resonate with someone, I promise you. So. Couldn't be any more thankful for that and honored to have you in here. Oh. With that being said, love you. Love you guys.

[B]

Thank you for coming, brother.

[A]

Like, subscribe.

[C]

I appreciate it. Love you, bum.

[B]

Yes, sir.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Love you, Joe. Love you, Seth.

[A]

Hey, love you, Alan Luckett.

[B]

Oh, yes. Love you, too.

[A]

Love you, Alan. Look at one of our big, biggest supporters, man. I just. I love you to death.

[B]

Yes.