B (5:10)

Yeah. That is amazing. I mean, I have seen this firsthand for my market. It is hard to build a webinar. I mean, you're the master. You've done it many, many, many, many hundreds of times, thousands of times. So you get it. But for me to figure it out, like, I had literally studied this book. It was my workbook, like every day trying to figure out more, trying to figure out more. And it is hard work, but once it starts to work, it is a beautiful thing. It's, it's so, so impressive to watch this compared to anything else that I've done in the past. So, yes, it is a very, very, very superior sales vehicle compared to everything that's. That exists in the online space today. What are your typical, like what I would love to understand when you. Because in the book you don't really talk about the specific conversion percentages, right?

C (6:04)

Yep.

B (6:04)

But what do you see as the holy grail for the industry when it comes to a thousand dollar offer? Where do you see a good percentage for you? But it also probably depends on the traffic source and all.

C (6:18)

Yeah, that's why I don't talk percentages. Right. It's like the joke I always give is if I tell you the average temperature of a normal day in your town, that that probably tells you very little of the temperature today in your town. Unless you live in like Hawaii or something. Like, see, I grew up in Iowa, where it could be as hot as anywhere in the country or it could be as cold as anywhere in the country during winter. Like so, so the average told us nothing about what the temperature was today. And so like when you're factoring conversion rates, the first thing you have to realize is, is you don't cash conversion rate in at the bank. So if we can create an asset that can produce customers at break even or better, I'm tickled pink because then the more we can serve those customers on the back end, the more they'll want to spend more money with us and we won't have to pay to acquire them again. So all the money is up front in the acquisition. I would then say, great, if we can get them at break even, maybe we can experiment and try things to improve it. But also we have a. We have a new audience to sell something else to. And that's the first thing. And so people get stuck up on percentages. But then the other thing, so just qualitatively, like when we were in analyzing here, is like hard offers versus soft offers. So productivity is what we call a soft offer because it's not directly correlated. For them to make money, there's a step involved. I'm productive, and then I will make money. Right. If we're selling like a financial product, here's how to make money. There's one less step involved. That's a hard offer, not a soft offer. Typically, hard offers will convert better than soft offers. The downside is there's more competition for hard offers. So you have to be better at it. But if you're better at it, you should convert higher. Right. Price points make a difference. So 1,000 versus 2,000, you know, cold traffic versus warm traffic. I'm not a huge fan of cold traffic. I understand you need some to scale the business. Right. But I try to use warm traffic as much as possible, try to find audiences that have an affinity with the audience owner. And so then I get secondhand warm at least, instead of just pure cold traffic. And so I know metrics for warm are completely different for metrics from cold. And then also automated versus live.

B (8:38)

Very different.

C (8:38)

Yeah, I mean, we just go. It goes insane, the amount of. Of deviation. So what we try to estimate is based on what we're doing in this market, based on the return we're getting for the effort involved, based on the successes of our customers and basis on the ability to grow and scale the thing. Are we happy with the result? And does it seem like there's some obvious places we can make some improvement? The hardest thing in business is getting over that initial hurdle. Right. I like to think of it like as a car that's stalled. So you got a vehicle and you can't get it started. But you know, if you push it and start pushing it and it gets momentum, then it will kick over. Right. And I drive a Tesla, so none of this is applicable in this day and age. It's an old. It's an old analogy, but, you know, bear with me, right? So. So getting a car started to push it is really hard to get it moving. You know, you put it in Neutral, and then you and a buddy or two start pushing from the back. Right? But once you start that car rolling, you can't stop it very easily. Right. It will continue to pick up speed. And so in business, the hardest thing we can go is from 0 to 1. From a webinar that won't make any money at all, won't sell to anybody, to getting them to sell to somebody. That's the. That's the chasm we must cross. And so that's what we're trying to do. Once we get there, man, then it's great. You're going to win the lion's share of that market, and that's what we're really hunting for. If we can do that, then everything else becomes easier, and then we can. We can optimize. Now, I recommend you continue to optimize on your webinar. And let me tell you why, because it will make you better, period. So the next time you need a webinar for something else, or even forget webinars for a second, this book, one to many. It's a master class in persuasion. The webinar is just the vehicle that it's applied in. But I can't tell you how many times somebody has came up to me and says, jason, we still haven't done a webinar yet. But what I learned from your book, we applied it to our sales team, and now they're closing better. Right? Or we decided to reposition an offer to the clients in this way, and now we're making more money. And they're like. And they feel bad, like, dude, I'm sorry, I haven't done a webinar. Dude, I don't care if you've done a webinar or not. Right? My goal is to make you more money. And so you did. So the principles that you'll learn and the more you'll ingrain it will start to show up only everywhere else in your business. And that's really the value. And continue to optimizing it.

B (10:52)

Yeah, I mean, I've. I've literally taken principles from, like, the opening section where we talk about the introduction, and, like, you're the master closer, man. Like, I have never seen and I have heard so many interviews of you and so many like, like YouTube interviews or podcast interviews. And I like, I just, like, I just wait for that moment when the interviewer is going to get you to a objection and you just go on it. I'm like, damn, man, this is so good. Yeah, you are the master closer, man. I haven't seen anything like this. Amazing.

C (11:22)

Thank you. Yeah, appreciate it. And then the book, we talk in the book, it gives you just some of the closes. I have thousands of them, it feels like. But what's more important than the specific closes is the understanding of what the close is and how to do it properly. And we can talk about that if you want, and we can dive in on that.

B (11:40)

I mean, I'll give you an example. Close. I shouldn't need this. Yes, I struggle with this, but I shouldn't need this. What do you mean? You're going to babysit me? So it's like their ego gets in the way of them buying this product.

C (11:54)

Yeah. You know, I mean, some objections. We don't get rid of them. They're going to come up no matter what. But it's how we manage them. Them that makes the difference or not. So one of the ways and I would handle. If this is such an insidious objection, which sounds like it is, I'm going to close it three or four different ways. It's the theory of if we want to chop down a tree, we weaken the foundation. We chop it from multiple angles, and then we can push it over when we're done. Right. So we want to, if nothing else, every cloth should crack the foundation further till it collapses on itself. But one of the ways I would close on that, I said, at this point in time in the webinar, you may be thinking, what do I need you for? I can do this myself. And, oh, if only that were true, my sweet young child. Right. Because here's the reality of people that I see that think that they can do it themselves. It's just like they think they can do everything else themselves. And let's take a look at your to do list. If you could bring it up for me, if I had you sitting in front of me right now, and we could analyze your to do list. How many things on those on that list are things that you know you should do, that you know you could do, but yet they're still on that list. Right. Wouldn't it be wonderful if you could hand your to do list over to somebody else and they could cross it off because they did it for. For you? Or instead of you having to do it from 0% to 100%, what if they got you to 99% and then you strolled across that finish line? What if we could start you. If this was a marathon, a mile 25 instead of on the first mile? Don't you think that would help you and Are you willing to risk one measly dollar to put it to the test today, or is that too much for you? You let me know, because here's what I do know. If you can do it on your own and you do it with us, great. If you can't do it on your own and have us do it for you, great. The result is still the same. Blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada. Right. That's just off the top.

B (13:35)

Right.

C (13:36)

Let's run it back, though. The best way you can deal with an objection is to first agree with it.

B (13:42)

Yeah.

C (13:43)

And so I would also do a close where I would say, you can do this on your own, you don't need us. You can even allow your ego to get in the way if you need it to. Right. Some of you cling to your ego like a security blanket. And if that allows you to sleep at night, I don't want to take that away from you. Right. Here's why. Even though you can do it on your own and you don't need us, why you'll still want to invest with us. And then I could do a logic close based on that. Right. I could also. So that's another way to handle that. A third way to handle that is, you know, I'm speaking to two groups today on this webinar. One group of people who. Who know that they can't do this with our. Our help. And the other group of people who think. Think that they can do this without us, but ultimately they can't. And we know we can close the former. And I wouldn't say close on a webinar necessarily. I would. But I wouldn't recommend you do it. Right. I would say I know those of you who know you can't do it, who see the value in this. You're already signed up or you're going to sign up. So for a second, do you mind if I address the rest of the people on the webinar? Okay. For the rest of you, right. A lot of you that have yet to sign up think you can do it on your own and don't need us. And here's the danger in that thinking, right? And then I start to break it down into the whole idea of showing them that the risk of being able to do it on their own, what if they were wrong? So I would break that down. What if you were wrong? What would it cost you if you were wrong? Because the devil is in the details. So what if you go to do it and find out even if you could do it, it's not worth it for you to do it, because, yeah, you could do your own laundry, you could cut your own grass, you could cut your own hair, right? But does it make sense for you to do it even if you could do it? And what if you couldn't do it? Would it be worth you risking not being able to do it even though you think you could? Because here's our experience. We've had clients who have came crawling back to us later on and they missed out on the trial offer and they had to pay more for it. If this was true. I'm not sure if it's true. And I'm just assuming, right, they had to admit that they couldn't do it. And what's a bigger blow to your ego? Admitting you can't do it right now and getting the result or trying and failing and then coming back later and admitting you couldn't do it. Right. And I'm not saying I can do it for everybody, but here's who I know. I can help with this. And then you get specific on your clothes, this, that, the other, yada, yada, yada, right? If that's you sign up. If that's not you, you have my permission to ignore anything else that I say from this point forward. And so those are three different ways that we can deal with that one specific objection. And that's just that close time. If these are real objections, we should be seeding that earlier on in the presentation. Even in the introduction, I might say, I say, I'm going to show you something that I'm first. You may think that you can do it and you won't need my help. And the problem with that is if you just judge the depth of the water by the surface, you don't know how deep it actually is. Some of these are simple and easy concepts to appreciate in theory, but in practice, there's some specificness to them that can make or break you. So if you could please, open mind is all I ask you set aside. Whether you think you can or you can't do this is inconsequential. By the time we're done with this, you're going to know what to focus on, and then we could help you, or you can do it on your own. We could determine if that makes sense at that point in time. But for right now, if you think you can do this, I just want to give you a cautious piece of advice. There's probably more going on here than you're aware of, so I might do Something like that. Right. So in the intro, I'm prepping it. If I show a customer result in the content section to prove a point, I want to show an example of a customer who realized they couldn't do it on their own, admitted that they thought they could do it on their own, but still entrusted you and. Or a customer who tried to do it on their own because they thought they could, they failed, and then they came back to you later. Right. Ideally, all of those. I would like to show all of those, but we were breaking it down to teaching moments. Here is, I really like the. I really like the clothes. If it's true and I can make it obvious is like, yeah, you can do it on your own. And here's why it still makes sense to have us do it with you as opposed to doing it on your own. Now then, the close that I would most heavily lean on is at this point in time, you're thinking, I can do it on my own, probably. And you're thinking that, why do I need you? And the reality to both of those things is, yes, you could do it on your own, and yes, you don't need me. Here's why. Clients who are like you still invest with us anyway, despite the fact that they could do it on their own and they don't need us. And then we sell on that one. Right? So we just agree with them. The most important thing you can ever do to an objection is bring it up.

B (18:36)

Hmm.

C (18:37)

I put a price tag out there and say, you probably think this is very expensive, right? Now, that's the number one way to deal with an objection is to first bring it up, lay it on the table. Now here's bonus points exaggerated for effect, because now they'll. They'll bring it back. So I might say, you're looking at this thing and saying, oh, my God, that's more than I've ever seen in my life. Or something like that. This is a gigantic price tag. I can't even imagine anyone being able to afford to see what I'm doing there. I'm exaggerating it, right? They're gonna say, well, it's expensive, but it's not that expensive. And I'm like, now they're defending my price for me, right? So not most people are scared to bring up any objection, Right. Not only am I bringing up the objection, I'm tending to exaggerate it even further than what they're willing to exaggerate. Because the biggest objection, by the way, is, is never price. It's never Time. It's always belief and it's specifically fear, the belief that they'll do it and screw it up, right? So I'll. All the time, I'll attack that and I'll. And I'll overdo it in the other direction where like, you know, say I'm teaching somebody how to create info products, which is something. A webinar. We just did it, just killed it. And I'm saying right now you're concerned. What if I sell a product and people hate it? And they hate it so much that they track me down, they pull me out in front of the street and they beat me in public, they tar and feather me, right? Because I screw it up that bad. You're probably worried about that right now. So the objection is, what if I create a product that sucks and people say mean things about me? That's the objection. But see how I exaggerated it to the next level, right? Because I'm laying it down. Because this is the stuff that prevents people from making decisions to buy products that are in their best interest to purchase. So if we can, if we can exaggerate it, like you're probably thinking right now that you're paying me to babysit you and that I'm going to, you know, pamper you, feed you and tuck you in and read you a bedtime story at night, right? So I would lean in further to that direction. But we can, you know, the three major objection techniques that I broke down just for summary here. One is agree and lean into it and show why it doesn't matter. Two is to say some people believe that and then show them that. The people that believe that, the dangers of believing that. So we're not directly attacking them. We're not saying you shouldn't believe that because if you fight something, it fights back. It's a terrible way to handle an objection. So instead we sidestep it, right? With the. I'm not sure if you, you know, like some customers believe this to be true, but here's the danger in believing it. So it's an indirect way of dealing it. And then the third way of dealing with it is reorientating it on what really matters, right? At the end of the day, whether you do it or we do it, what you really want is X. And you have to determine if this is how you're going to get X or not. And in what ways does it make sense in order to get X or. I like a challenge to the challenges.

B (21:31)

I.

C (21:32)

How much are you willing to let your ego cost you? And they say, well, what do you mean? I'm like, yeah, well. And then I start to break that down. Well, if this was the solution to you and you couldn't accept it because you felt like if it was meant to be, it was up to me, and the only way you'd get it done is if it did it on your own. Blood, sweat and tears, right? Are you. Are you willing to let your ego take you down that path simply so you can say you did it. Is that what you want? And now they're like, well, gee, I don't know, maybe I don't want my ego to cost me that anymore. So I'm not trying to tell them to put their ego aside, right? I'm literally saying, how much are you willing to let your ego cost you? And then allowing them to sell themselves on the idea that maybe it's not worth their ego costing them for this solution. All I'm trying to do is getting them to be in a position where they're open to the idea, not close to it, which they currently are. So those are some of the ways in which I would. I would play around with killing that. Objection.

B (22:30)

Yeah, that. That is. That is pretty amazing. I mean, if for someone who's listening and kind of connecting the dot here, the dots here, there are three pieces of the webinar, as you describe in the book, the intro, the content, and the close. And what's unique in the way you do it, which I didn't think about until I read the book, is, you know, the objections, and you bring them out up front. You don't wait till the close to bring the objections. You're like, let's head, like, let's. Let's start. And what you said where, like, as you were talking, like, let's start cutting at it, like, let's start losing, making the foundation weaker and weaker right away, rather than wait till later foreshadowing those objections.

C (23:16)

Oh, yeah, I mean, the first two minutes usually of my webinar, I'm already bringing up the objections that they have. Right? I'll say, you know, I'm going to show you X today on this webinar. Now, as I show you X, this is what you might be thinking. You might be thinking limiting belief number one and limiting belief number two and limiting belief number three and four and five. Right. And I understand your concern there. However, I asked you this one thing. Please put those aside for now and just be open to the idea that even if you're stuck in this way and constrained in that way and inefficient in this way and incomplete in that way that by the end of this webinar, I'm going to show how even you, in the decrepit state that you're currently in, can make it go at this right now. I don't necessarily say it like that. I'm building structure here so people can follow along. But like we sell an Amazon training product and I bring up the fact early on, like I talk to them, I say, you know, your financial situation is tight, so what are you looking to do? Or so what are you doing about it? You're putting the matters in your own hands, which is smart, but it's also risky, right? Because in order to make this business work, you need a good product. Not just a product. You need multiple products. They need to be of high quality and high profit margin. But that's not enough, unfortunately. You also need to know how to create conversion events. You need to know how to sell those products, what to say and what not to say. But even that's not enough, right? You need to drive traffic to these offers so people can decide whether they want to buy it or not. And driving traffic is the hardest thing I've ever seen customers try to do online because there are already established businesses that can outspend and outsmart you. So what are you supposed to do? How do you compete with them? The good news is you don't have to. By the end of this webinar, you're going to discover how you can find high quality products very easily with high profit margins that don't require you to create sales letters to sell them. The traffic is already built into them and they're like, oh my God, great, let's listen to this. Because otherwise if we don't, if we don't address those objections up front, anything we say, they're, they're hesitant to accept because they'll run it with a yeah, but dot, dot, dot, and they'll kick it back out and they'll say, man, this is great, but yada, yada, yada. And so, yeah, we start very aggressively with the limitations.

B (25:34)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and the three part framework you kind of described right now, or as you were kind of explaining how to debunk those objections, first you said, okay, bring it up in the intro, which you just showed how to do that. But then you also said bring it up in testimonial. Somewhere in the content slash testimonial area where you kind of become aware, okay, this is the objection. And we need to Handle it through one of the testimonials or 2 of the testimonials or 5 on the testimonial, whatever it is. And then again, in the closing, you will do a whole job on it, right?

C (26:05)

Yeah. Multiple ways too. Right. So I might like a price objection. Will close it four or five different ways. Right. And in the intro, we will bring up something around investing potentially. And the difference between a smart investment and a poor investment is not the amount of money you put into it. Right. Something else. And then the content section, we might show how it can be done on a shoestring budget. And we show what it would look like if it was done on a shoestring budget, what it would look like if it was done on an ordinary budget. The difference between the two, why both can work. Right. And so we are constantly throughout the presentation hammering it around the limitation. Here's the insight I discovered that allowed me to design webinars this way. Everybody will buy if you remove all the risk. So it's not the reward. That's not why they're purchasing. It's that helps. But everybody would buy everything you sold if there was no way they could get harmed or fail with it. They could only succeed with it. Every single person would buy. And so we have to remove the risk. We have to unlimit the limitation. And if we do that, people buy out of safety and comfort, more so than out of potential of gain at the expense of risk. And so so many products over emphasize the outcomes and the benefits and how it will make your life better. We emphasize here's how it will stop your life from getting worse. And then, oh yeah, by the way, it'll also be awesome, right? But here's how it will stop you from being as miserable as you currently are as it relates to this and that and on the outside looking. And if you analyze my webinars, it's easy to miss that little key factor that I just pointed up. But the heartbeat of all the webinar is removing the excuses that stop people from doing things they should do. And that's really the whole focus of all of our webinars from start to finish and in between is built around that concept.

B (28:06)

One of the things I learned from your book, but you were talking about guarantees and removing the fears or removing those, you know, objections or yeah, removing the fear of buying. You said, okay, money back guarantee is cool, but it's not cool enough anymore. Everyone does that. So you need something even like if it, if it's possible, better than money back Guarantee.

C (28:25)

I mean, so there's two ways. And now we're getting into super advanced stuff, right? So just caveating for everybody listening right now. The. The better than money back guarantee is the single greatest thing you can do to increase the conversion of any offer that you make. But there's many ways to screw it up. There's few ways to do it, right? And so we have to be cautious in how we exercise the better than money back guarantee. And there's a lot of offers where we. We consider it and we discard it because we can't make it make sense, right? Because you have to do the risk assessment on your own. You have to be willing to take on the risk at the expense of the customer. So your stuff A has to be damn good. So that disqualifies 50% of people trying to do webinars because their stuff sucks. Their packaging and the gift wrap they use is great, but what's inside the package is no bueno. So they can't use this technique. The other issue though, too is sometimes it can be distracting if you have too many qualifications or conditions for the better than money back guarantee. People are turned off by it becomes too confusing, and then they just decide not to buy. Or you make it too easy and people will try to exploit you. They'll try to take advantage of you to make free money. Depends on your audience. But a lot of audiences, we don't like to open ourselves up to being exploited and taken advantage of. So we have to. We have to create a better than money back guarantee in a way that what it does is it positively reinforces the behaviors that my audience needs to follow anyway to get a good result. Right? So why do people fail when they buy products? It's usually because they consume little or none of the product that they purchase. That's why they fail. Right? Another reason people fail is as they expect too much too soon. So people overestimate what they can do in a month, and they underestimate what they can do in 10 months. So they do something. They fall off the bike the first time and they never get back on it again. Imagine if kids behave that way. I've never understood that as adults. We behave that way. We had to unlearn a great strategy as children when we became adults. Like, a kid doesn't fall off the bike and say, well, that's it, I'm done, I quit, right? I mean, the kid's bleeding. And like, you're buying products and it doesn't work the first time, and you struggle and you're not even bleeding and you're not willing to get back on it and try it again, right? So, so if it's important for them to have consistency and follow through, which is like everything, right, we want to reward and reinforce that. So constructing guarantees around that, which it sounds like that's what you did here. So that's good, right? So because we want them to get the result anyway, we have to make the guarantee just obtainable enough that we pay occasionally. But. But mathematically speaking, the resultant increase in conversion covers the amount of out of pocket expense that we occasionally get from the better than money back guarantee. And then there's the procedural process of how do we articulate and use a money back guarantee? The good news is you got my book, right? Because the problem is you can't really model this. The reason you can't model this is because nobody does it. Most marketing, unfortunately, is everybody looks around at everybody else and they say, well, I'll kind of do something like they're doing. Here's how they actually do it. Let me steal as much of this as possible without outright being able to be accused of stealing it. Like, you know, let me slightly adjust it so it's not so egregious that people can see that I stole it. Or if they can, I have plausible deniability, right? That's most marketing. For better or worse. That's just the way that it is. And so people can't model these guarantees because A, they don't really see them and B, they look too complicated to knock off. But yeah, you hit the nail right on the head. Here's the premise of how I developed this. I saw, I was sitting there one day and thinking, you know, money back guarantees remove some of the risk, but they don't remove all of the risk because you can't recover the time that you put into it. So I can give you all your money back on my product if it doesn't work, but you're still out your time. And by the way, if you risk something like say I teach you a course on Facebook advertising, you're out your money on advertising. I can give you the money back for the course, but I can't have Facebook give you your money back from your ads that didn't work, right? So there is real risk involved, time and otherwise following anything that you sell to an audience. So if we can also mitigate that risk now, we can sell almost from the position of whether this will work for you or not, you will make money. Because if it works for You. Great. The increase in productivity will make you money. Fantastic. You didn't pay for this product. This product paid you, right? Or for some small miraculous reason, somehow even you were able to screw it up. Because sometimes people get hit by cars when they cross the street, right? Somebody's got to be unlucky. But even if you're the unluckiest SOB who's ever existed, even if you somehow find a way to screw it up, you'll still be better off because you will get paid. Because you will try your best, you'll follow directions. And if it doesn't work and you don't make money that way, I will personally pay you money. So you will make money. So as long as you follow the program, the only outcome is you make money. The difference in the variable is how much will you make. And by the way, after I pay you, if you fail, you could still use the product because if it didn't work the first time, it could work the second, third or fourth or fifth time. So you'll still be in a position to benefit it. This just gets you. This is just a way to ease the pain for you because you got unlucky the first time. Right. And so that's a killer guarantee, provided it's not too complicated to explain to. Provided it's easy for people to understand, provided they feel good about it and it doesn't feel like a gimmick to them and it doesn't get in the way of the sell which everything that you're telling me tends to point that it. You did it right. Because of the conversion numbers.

B (34:14)

Yeah. And when you were saying that you would get these all like once in a while, people who will take.

C (34:21)

There's a lot of factors involved though. You want, you want some compliance to it. I'll give you one of the examples of a better than money back guarantee that we do. Here's, here's the qualification. There's two of them. The other one's minor, but the major one is this. Create a Google Doc and in the morning state what you plan on doing that day related to the material. Right. And in the evening, check back in and do an audit. Here's what I did that worked and here's what I didn't do. And then tomorrow do the same thing. Just do that for 60 days. That's it. 60 days straight. That's all you got to do. If you do that and you, and you don't make money X number of dollars, then I will pay you X number of dollars. I'm Just asking them to check in twice a day for 60 days. Now we use Google Docs because there's timestamps, they can't fake that, they can't cheat it. Right. They can't do all that stuff. But the reality of compliance there is just consistency because I know what that offer. If they are just in the game every day for 60 days and they set up a small daily goal and then they check in on the evening for progress, this is basic stuff, isn't it? This is something we all need to be able to, we should all be doing. That's the only qualification. If they can meet that and they don't succeed, I'd be happy to pay them because that's an attitude of somebody who's going to win at some point in time anyway. But it really reorient orientates a person in the right direction, that they should be in the right direction is that we're going to work over time to be successful. The human condition says I don't want to do that, I want success immediately. So this is the war that we're fighting against. Right? So the way we win that war is we say just do this and even if you don't get the outcome, I'll pay you for it. And people will be willing to do that. Now, do most follow through on us? No, they don't, unfortunately. Right. Here's a, here's a reality in every business that everybody needs to be able to follow. Most of your people at scale are not going to get the ideal results and it has nothing to do with you or your product. Right. I have spent masterminds that I've had to pay a hundred thousand dollars to be a part of. That's a six figure investment. Right. And I have skipped the meetings of some of those masterminds. Right. And you could say, well Jason, you're not successful, then you failed, you didn't use the material. Yeah, you're right, I totally didn't. Right. Life interrupts, man. Other things happen, other priorities occur. Right. Sometimes I didn't come to those meetings because there was an opportunity to make seven figures over here. And so that's going to be some of your customers, some of your other customers. The, the benefit of paying you to give the clarity that I shouldn't be doing this is just as valuable to somebody because then they can move on with their life and go do something else. Right. So it's hard to measure success. We build it for the few people that win, not the many people that don't win immediately. And over a long enough time frame, by the way, I have customers that check in with me 10 years later. I said, thank God you sold me that product 10 years ago. I now just finally figured out how to apply it.

B (37:29)

That is amazing.

C (37:30)

But if we were looking at it from a nine year timeframe, dude, we would have called them a failure. Right? Yeah, yeah.

B (37:35)

So when you're looking at your webinars and you're measuring success of a webinar, what are your metrics? Let's say from the time someone sees the offer. How many closes would mean that the webinar was successful versus not what percentage?

C (37:52)

It's a great question. So let me see, let me pull up a statistic for you if I can find it. So we did a webinar and maybe

B (38:00)

that's a function of the price as well, so.

C (38:02)

Oh yeah, totally. Right. So I'm going to give you an answer that's not direct.

B (38:08)

Sure.

C (38:08)

Again. Right. But I will try to qualify it and I will try to explain it. I had, I'm trying to find the text because somebody sent me a text for a webinar. We work with a partner and so we're the marketing for them. They're the product. Because I like, I like it better that way because then I can just sell and they can fulfill, get the best of both worlds. For some reason I can't find it. I thought I saved this into. Oh wait, here it is. Okay, cool. So they sent me this message and the message went like this. Okay, hey guys, here's some interesting stats. So he sent this to me and my business partner Wilson. He says 90 minutes into the webinar, when most presenters end the webinar, we were at 100 units sold. So this is a product that retails for. It goes on the webinar for $3,000. Okay, so that's 300,000 in revenue at the end of the webinar. Right. This, when you close the webinar, 4.5 hours in. So we went 90 minutes and then we went an additional. Whatever. 103 hours. Yeah, so. So yeah, we went in another three hours. And that's a lot of time. Whatever. Right. He says when you close the webinar three hours later is the way to phrase it. We had sold 197 units. You almost doubled sales by staying on and crushing objections. Right. So we took a $300,000 webinar and we turned it into something like a 500.

B (39:41)

600.

C (39:41)

Yeah, yeah, it's $600,000 webinar. We closed that at multiple millions, though by the time that webinar was over with. Here's why. Most of the webinars I do, we sell more on the follow up and on the replay, right? We do on the webinar itself. Now, caveats galore to that, right. In a lot of ways I am envious of your model because you have more scalability, you have more consistency and predictability. You're not doing launches. You have something that's evergreen and you have something that's automated. Right. I'm playing usually in situations where we're doing product launches, products is sold one time a year, maybe two times, maybe three times at most. Right. And we're bringing in a whole bunch of people on this journey for a very short period of time. And we're using this massive energetic force in order to push the thing along. It's a whole different experience. So this webinar closed at about 15%.

B (40:47)

15% of attendees.

C (40:50)

Yeah, 15% of attendees at a $3,000 price. It's outrageous, right? Nobody should aspire to get there. And, and, and makes me sick right now. Well, it's apples to oranges, right? And so I'm doing it in a live situation, warm traffic. These are affiliates. So people are sending me their traffic because they know I'll make them more money than they could make from it. Right. And so, you know, we're leveraging reputation of other people sending the traffic, all that kind of stuff. Right. And even more important is we have follow up in place. Because the way that I sell, I call it a yes maybe frame. Most people sell in a yes no situation. You either buy it or you hate it and there's no in between. I sell in a situation where if I don't close you today, I still move you further along to close you tomorrow. Right. And so we build out the webinar, we will sacrifice and lose some point of sale. Because, because I don't want to say certain things because I want to leave the door open for follow up. Right? So it's super complicated as anything gets at the highest level possible, right. And so we're not optimizing for necessari point of sale on the webinar. We're optimizing for end of campaign. What do we have in the cart? Because these are things that we launch that have short opening and closing dates, like maybe 14 days from the day we start promoting the webinar to the day the offer gets yanked. Nobody can purchase it anywhere for, you know, six months. So we have a lot riding on It. So the stakes are really high. The money is really good. But the downside is when that car closes, $0 is what we make from it next week.

B (42:32)

Yeah.

C (42:32)

So it's just. It's completely different metrics. That's why. That's why it's so. It's not really important for me what conversion is. We have to weigh it on a. On a scale of different assessment points. What's the scalability of it? Are we okay with it not being scalable? If we want it to be scalable, are we okay with losing some of the conversion to get it scalable? If it's live? Right. We're going to convert better, typically, but we're going to spend more effort and time and we have to coordinate more things. If it's automated, we'll typically convert less, but that thing can run longer, perhaps. Right?

B (43:05)

Yeah.

C (43:06)

And we can focus on other areas of our business and make other money that way. You know, everybody wants to know the number because that's a. That's something they can easily wrap their head around. And this is.

B (43:16)

Yeah, exactly. It's like, what, where am I making a mistake? Or where should I focus effort on energy compared to all the other things I could be doing in the business? Right. That's kind of what happens when we're thinking about those things.

C (43:28)

Yeah. I mean, numbers don't lie, but they don't tell the whole truth either. So. But, but what people know, so and this is really important from a marketing and a persuasion perspective, is this is why you can't rely on your customers to tell you the answers to the problems they have, because they have a limited reality. They can only see so far. They could only understand so much. They don't know what they need to know. Our goal is to help them become aware of the things that they're unaware of right now, and then that will allow them to make a new decision. This is why one of the closes when somebody says, I need to think it over, you say, great. How will you know when you're done thinking it over and can make a yes or no decision? And they'll say, I haven't thought about that. Right. Or somebody will say, you know, I don't know, I lack confidence to do this. I'll say, to what percentage of confidence do you need to feel in order to say yes to this offer? Right. Is it 52.1%? Is it 61? Right. I don't know. And they're like, oh, I never thought of it that way. Because confidence to them is a Binary. No, it's a binary. I either have it or I don't. That's not reality. Reality is confidence is on a spectrum. And how much of it do you need to know in order to feel comfortable enough to move forward? Right. I'm giving them a new perspective to understand it. When we close for three hours, I get the real objections in hour three or four, because we've removed all the fog to really get down to the matter, and we've earned the right where people trust us enough to be vulnerable. Right. But the number we can understand. I can quote you a number. 10. Got it. Boom. Done. I don't have to think about it any further. Right. That's an easy thing to, to get some clarity on. The harder thing to get clarity on is, like, I'll give you a great example. We could increase your show rate, but in doing so, do we decrease the, the hoop that they jump through, which then decreases their commitment, which could decrease the conversion rate. Right. So we might improve show rate, but we ultimately might lose close rate. Right. At the same time, suppressing show rate intentionally by making it harder to get there may increase close rate. However, what is it, a net positive gain or a net negative gain? If I increase close rate, but I decrease show rate, it might wash. I might end up with the same amount of money at the end of the day. Right?

B (45:50)

Yeah.

C (45:50)

This is why I'm trying just to be better at selling and communicating and constructing strong offers. Because if I'm better at these meta skills, then it's only a matter of time before I stumble upon a market or opportunity where I can just absolutely crush it. And we know, we know we're crushing it. Not based on percentages. We know we're crushing it because we're setting records. We're selling more than anybody's ever sold in that space before. We're doing things that nobody can ever understand, and they're scratching their head saying, how is that even possible? That's what we're optimizing for.

B (46:22)

Yeah, yeah, no, totally. I, I, I have been, like, following, trying to understand, like, following your success, and I actually sit and watch your webinars just for the heck of it, even though I wouldn't, like, I'm not an Amazon.

C (46:38)

You're not in that market, right?

B (46:39)

Yeah, I'm not in that market. But I just want to understand what is Jason doing that's so fascinating that you can do for so long and people like. And every time I listen to one of your webinars, there's something new I'VE picked up that I didn't understand before. I'm like, damn it.

C (46:53)

So that you're doing, you're doing what you should be doing now. You are. Yeah, yeah.

B (46:57)

This is, this is great stuff, man. Like, this is, this is so much, so much, so much clarity on a topic that is very difficult. And that's why I'm like referring to your book here. There's so much clarity on this topic on webinars, because webinars by themselves are a very complex machine to an outsider because there's a lot going on and if you screw up early on, then you never get to the later on part because you've already screwed up and you've lost the purpose customer. So you're like literally building a machine for quite a lot and you're. Yeah, you've done a great job explaining it down to the details.

C (47:43)

So, yeah, I mean, all of this is like extra stuff. Like, if you get the book, it's really cool because I just give you a framework. I'm like, okay, in the introduction, here are the five things that you need to accomplish, and then here's how you accomplish all of these five things. And it's almost like a checklist.

B (48:00)

It's.

C (48:00)

It's my equivalent of how do I get you to turn on the light switch without you knowing anything about electricity? Right. So it's like, if I can build you a light switch and you can just turn it on, you don't have to know the magic of how that happened to, to make that occur. So a lot of the clients is we get them in action so they can move and get experience, which gives them wisdom. So I'm just trying to get them into the field where they're putting offers in front of people. And what we discovered is these frameworks are more than sufficient. You know, if Everybody else is 4 foot 10, then even being 5 foot makes you really tall, Right? Not objectively, but comparatively. And so for most audiences that they've never seen a good webinar. So even just a good enough webinar is good enough. Like, you know, in their intros, if we're bringing up objections and addressing them right away, that's something nobody else does when it comes to establishing authority. Everybody knows authority is important, but nobody systematically knows how to create authority on a webinar. Right? So I have a systematic process. I said, here are the elements that create authority. Pick some of these elements that you already have or can easily cultivate. Put them here, right? And then that's good enough. Now you can pull out my webinars and say, well, Jason, you didn't do this here, and you're intentionally violating that rule over. Yeah, of course I am. Right. I'm playing at a different level. I wrote the rulebook, right. So it's like I'm calibrating to you for now, not to me or for you in the future. Right. And again, this isn't exact science. This is if we rough it in and get it good enough. That's. That's fine. It doesn't need to be precise. We just. I find that audiences I try to do webinars, they just over complicate it. So I'm just trying to under complicate it for you. So you can just do it and get it done. Because the webinar that's almost done will make you exactly zero dollars. And the way we do webinars, by the way, Alex Hermosi, I just talked to him yesterday. He called me up on a Sunday, or I called him, he texted me, and I was like, it's easier just to talk to him. So I called him up, and Alex says, alex's last book sold like 400,000 copies. And it's just going strong. If that dude isn't a billionaire in the next 10 years, I don't know who will be. Right? And Alex told me, he's like, when I do keynotes, Jason, he goes, I take your webinar formula, which is in the book. And he said, I just chop off the pitch section. And I'm like, yes, that's awesome, because I do the same thing. Because even if you do the content alone, the way that we teach traditional webinar presenters will give you. The example that I always like to say is, here's what they typically do with the content. They hit you over the head with a hammer. That's the content. And then the offer is the aspirin that they sell you to cure you of the headache that they just gave you. Right. They don't create content that's transformative. They create content that's agitative. It's the salt that they rip open your wound for, and then they sell you the solution to it. That's adversarial. I don't like it. I don't recommend it. I understand why people do it, because it's much easier up front if you don't have the proper roadmap to do it. But the content that we create is transformative. You literally could take my webinar, not use it for pitching, use it purely for educational and communication purposes and people will appreciate it and say, whoa, that was better than most things I've ever heard on the topic. And then, then we just add a pitch to the end of it. So we educate in a way that empowers somebody. Most education leaves people more confused than they were before they started. And that's a problem because they think you need to teach more. So the schools of thoughts go like this school of thought. Number one, most of you go out there and do webinars and you over teach. You don't leave people better off, you leave them worse off. And they don't buy your products because they don't even know what to do. They don't even know their name by the time they're done with you, much less how to buy your product. Right. The, the, the knee jerk reaction to that is to go the other way, which is what everybody does. They get you all dressed up with no place to go and then they sell you the place to go. Right. So that's also equally useless in the sense that it doesn't empower the consumer, but at least it makes money. And then my way is in the middle of those two extremes. The right dosage of education and information which empowers the user and then the juxtaposition of the offer to say if you really like that empowerment for free, imagine what it would be like if you paid for the rest of the empowerment. And that is how we teach the content section in the webinars. And that's all step by step too.

B (52:40)

Do you, by the way, do you present the idea that I will say, because I know you're sometimes one of the, one of the beauties of. One of the beauties of listening to you, like when you're closing or when you're like handling an objection is actually, you don't try to dance around the bush, you actually say it exactly as it is. You'll just say what's probably on their mind anyways and what's probably the truth anyways. Like saying something like, yeah, I want you to buy it because I want you to become a customer because then I will be able to sell you better stuff down the line. And right now it's a great deal. Something like that, right?

C (53:12)

Yeah, totally. Right?

B (53:13)

Yeah.

C (53:13)

Two reasons I do that. Reason one, personality. It's just my personality. But reason number two is it's more efficient if I have to dress it up and you know, make it all this big song and dance and dog and pony show. Right. It's just a waste of Our time. So if I can cut right to the heart of the matter and address it head on, it saves time and it's usually more impactful because it's more direct. So I'll. I'll do some webinars in the intro, or I'll say. I'll say something along the lines. I have two objectives today. Objective number one is to show you how to do X, Y and Z for free. Objective number two is to sell you a product now.

B (53:49)

Okay, so do you do that pretty consistent. Like that was the question.

C (53:52)

Not usually anymore.

B (53:53)

Right.

C (53:53)

I used to do it more often than I do it now for various reasons. Now I do it more on feel and intuition. Does this opener make sense? More than that opener. But back in the day when I didn't know any different, I had one opener and I used it all the time. And it was essentially that opener. I got two objectives today. Objective number one is to show you X, Y and Z for free. Objective number two is to sell you a product at the end of the webinar. However, if I don't make good on objective one, then I insist you not buy whatever I offer you at the end of the webinar. However, if I do make good on Objective 1 and actually show you how to do X, Y and Z right, then you should feel obligated to purchase what I'm going to offer you at the end of the webinar. Does that sound fair? And 99% of people would say, yeah, Jason, if you can do the impossible and show me X for free, I'd be more than happy to seriously consider buying why from you at the end of the webinar. So that's that. That's a tried and true technique. For most of you listening, something like that is in your best interest. Where you say, I have a webinar I created at the end, we're going to make an incredible offer. Now, that offer is only good for you if you fit exactly who I had in mind when I designed the offer. If it's not you, I don't want you to buy. If it's you, I absolutely want you to buy. Because I don't. I know I can help you. I don't know if I can help anybody else. However, before I get to the offer, I need to put it in its proper context first. So I need to show you some things first before we can decide whether or not it makes sense for you to invest in this offer at the end of the webinar. Is that okay with you and everybody in Their brother will agree to that. They'll say no.

B (55:37)

Have you seen that this kind of offer positioning with your clients especially like, it works better if it's like affiliate or warm traffic versus if it's a cold traffic.

C (55:47)

Have you done universally well for two reasons. Reason number one, it's unique. When everybody else is pretending they're not selling you something and you know they are, then you coming right out and saying it, saying, well, first of all, this is going to be different, so I better pay attention. Second of all, thank you for being honest with me. Right. So it gives rapport. So but here's the other reason why it typically works good. Because it aligns your interest in the customer's interest more specifically. So the framework, if you follow, and it's not a gimmick, if you actually follow what I say, create a near impossible thing that you're going to show for free. Now your goal is just to make that true. So it makes it easier for you to create a better webinar because you have a target to aim for. I'm going to pull off the impossible. It's amazing how often you can do that if you just try for it. The other thing though too is if it's true, where I say, listen, I had a very specific person in mind who absolutely, it will cost them more money not to own this than to own this. Now, in order to help you understand if you're that person I had in mind, I got to set some things up first before we show you what the offer is. As long as that's true, you should lean in and you should use that because the people will be excited. Is that me? Can I look at that? Can I figure that out or not?

B (57:01)

And.

C (57:01)

And you can then make that true and you can remove all of the people who aren't a right fit of your offer along the way. So who's left over is somebody who says, wow, this truly is the best thing for me now. I like to sell in that way. I'll give you one close and then I unfortunately got to go because I got to pick. But. And then we can wrap here. But I did a close one time. This was a close from stage, but it doesn't matter. The close works pretty much no matter what. The only difference was this was visual so it lend itself even better on stage. But the concept is the same. I was selling an Amazon audience once upon a time. It was mostly everybody just was on Amazon and we knew they needed to be beyond Amazon. They needed to have their own Shopify site. And we had the marketing rights to sell the first ever Shopify approved training program. On Shopify, we're partnered with a guy named Ezra Firestone who's an absolute legend in his own mind, right? We're the marketing for it. And I was selling his product from stage and I said to people, I said, I want you to raise your hand. Who here has known for more than three months that they needed to build their own e commerce site, but hasn't yet? And all these hands go up. And I'll say, only keep your hand up if it's been six months or longer since you've known you needed an e commerce site but you haven't used one yet or haven't set one up yet. And I'll say, okay, one last question. Keep your hand up if it's been one year or longer and you've known you needed an e commerce site, but you haven't done it yet. And then of the hands remaining, here's what I said to them that were in the crowd that were raising and go. I said, the rest of you with your hands down, I don't know if this offer is something you should buy or not, but for those of you with your hands up, you absolutely need to stand up right now. You need to walk to the back of the room and get signed up immediately because this offer is perfect for you. And a lot of them did. They got up and they went to the back of the room. But here's where it gets interesting. I said, now for those of you still sitting down, we have to decide if this makes sense for you or not. And somebody brought me out a flip chart and I said, so what's a major consideration to help you determine if you need this or not? And somebody says, money. So I write money on this flip chart at the top. And then some joker in the front row, maybe two, three, four rows deep, he says, jason, I don't have any money. I spent it all with you. And everybody laughs, right? Except for me. I'm not laughing. And I look him dead in the eye and I say, that's not true. I said, you bought the flight ticket to be here. You bought the hotel room, so don't tell me it's about the money. And then I cross money off on the flip chart, right? I said, what's it really about? And then people say, time. I say, time. That's what it's really about. And then we start to work on time. And then we close and we close and we close and we do that Whole rigmarol.

B (59:45)

Right.

C (59:46)

But the. The specifics are really interesting on that close. But what's more important is the principles behind that. I eliminated every audience up front for their own sake and only said these people should buy first. And those were the knockdowns. Those are the people that I knew would be more expensive for them not to buy. Those are the people that I knew. This is exactly who we had in mind when we created the damn thing. Right. But then I used them to then sell the other people. People. So I said, those people are 100%, you should absolutely buy. If you don't buy, I don't know what to do with you. You're insane. Right. But for the rest of you, we have to figure out if it makes sense for you to buy or not. And then that's when we started handling those objections. So you can use that same closed stack where you go at the end and say, for these few people, I know that this is certain, and if you don't buy, I'm going to be upset at you because you're making a bad decision. I'm not getting paid and you're not getting helped. Right. That doesn't make sense to me. Okay, good. Now that all of you are signed up that you get it, the rest of you who are sitting on here, we got to figure out if you should also sign up or not. But it's all presupposed and predicated on the fact that you're going to sign up if it makes sense. This is like, I'm here to sell you something, and you're here to buy something. More importantly, you're here to buy things that are better for you to purchase than not purchase. You're here to buy things that are more expensive if you don't buy them. You're here to buy things because everybody loves to buy stuff where they get the better end of the deal, right? So many other people are so shy about selling that they pretend that either selling is evil or that they have to do something else. And then they do this other thing, and then they get the right to sell you. Oh, no, none of that's true. Right. We're in the business of making the best deals to the best customers. And then all the webinar has to do is help them understand that. Now, usually you need education, and you need the right education. So that's the content section. But the. The frame at the beginning is always predicated, either directly or indirectly stated, which is essentially that I have an offer for you that if you're the right person, it'd be more expensive not to buy it. And if you're the wrong person, even if it was free, I don't want you to have it. We just got to figure out who that is. And that's why we're going to. All of that's in the book.

B (61:50)

Yeah. And that's why we're going to go through this webinar to get you to that point where you can make a decision if this is the right thing for you or not.

C (61:57)

Yeah, exactly. And it's. It's a virtuous vehicle. And, man, I wish we could dive into this further, but unfortunately.

B (62:03)

Thank you. Yeah.

C (62:04)

Yeah.

B (62:05)

Dude, this is awesome. I know you gotta run, so I'll hand it to you to tell us where to find you, where to find the book and. Yeah, and find all your resources, because I'm sure there's plenty of other things.

C (62:18)

Yeah. So the book is at Amazon. That's the best place to go. Buy it. And please leave me a review that's selling really well now. I just want more reviews. And then we are starting to do social media. So all this is new to me. We did a $57 million launch about a couple years back. I had zero social media presence, and I'm like, man, I need to get out there to help more people. So if you find me, YouTube is my main place that I'm trying to grow right now. So we're dropping nothing but content over there on a daily basis. So follow me on YouTube, subscribe to me there, get the book and. Yeah, let's continue to jam.

B (62:51)

Yeah, I. I will say that your YouTube channel is awesome. It's a gold mine. There's so much. And I always pick up on nuggets of wisdom that only. Like, when you say that, it's like, oh, my God, finally made sense, you know? So you see. Yeah, you're talking at a level where it's like, so good. So highly recommend if you. If you're. Yeah. If you're into marketing and sales, you gotta follow Jason on his YouTube channel for sure and get the book. I've literally studied the book from studying 365 books for a year to studying this as one of the three books I studied for the year. So get the book. Get the book. It's amazing. But that's. Jason, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. It's been a joy. It's been a privilege. Thank you.

C (63:31)

Bye for now.

B (63:32)

All right.

A (63:33)

By the way, this week I'm hosting a live workshop where I will show you how you can double your hourly productivity in just nine seconds using our nine second forcing function trigger. The best part about this no willpower needed. No habits to create, no systems to implement or install, no courses to study. So if you want to see how this 9 second forcing function trigger can double your hourly productivity with zero additional effort on your part, make sure to reserve your seat for the upcoming workshop at 2000books.com time. Just head on over to 2000books.com time and grab your seat right away.