C (2:41)

Absolutely. I mean, you know, it's one of those things where you look at footage of her talking in Google hangouts with her friends. You look at her picture, which is still memorialized on the bridge. She was a young woman who clearly had a lot of light in her life. But you also get a sense from a lot of the audio that we were able to delve into how the investigators approached this story. You know, we had all these 20 interviews with the search crews who went out initially when they thought maybe when they found her car on the side of a bridge, maybe she jumped, maybe she had fled to Canada and they were searching frantically for her body. Then you start getting the audio of the investigators interviewing all of her closest friends and family, trying to get to the bottom of it. And then of course, the mystery starts to unfold and you get real police interrogations. And I went onto the bridge where, you know, her car was found. And it's a really big, tall bridge. It's a working class town. Everybody in the town sor was riveted by the story because when she disappeared, it was such a mystery.

B (3:43)

What's it like there?

C (3:44)

Well, when you drive through the neighborhoods, it's a classic sort of working class shore town. You know, small, little neat gingerbread type houses. And she came from an area called Neptune City. The suspects that emerge during this case are childhood friends of hers. They went to elementary school together. They hung out at the pizza shop. They were, you know, local kids. Hey.

B (4:07)

And when we think about Sarah, like she was very much part of this online community kind of ahead of her time. If you look at how like just influencer driven the media landscape is now. She was at the time following people that we would probably call content creators. It was clear that back then police did not know how to categorize like this world. She fancied the idea of becoming kind of an online personality herself. And your team you mentioned actually found Google hangout videos that she and her friends would publish. Like, what did you kind of learn from these?

C (4:34)

So we were able to uncover a lot about her. We found her old tweets and her tumblr posts. We really got a sense of her humor. I mean, also we figured out how she decorates her bedroom. And she had, you know, dimples when she smiled. And there are all sorts of, you know, details about how she loved Disneyland and, you know, just getting a sense of who she was. The cool thing about these Google hangouts was that you get to see Sarah being a normal teenager, kind of being silly, kind of chill, hanging with her friends. And with this YouTube channel, you get to know her and the sound of her voice. But we have a little bit of tape, actually, of Sarah Googling her name to see what pops up. If you look up Sarah Stern, there's like, no dance. You'll see me. Sarah. Sarah Silverman. And then there's, like, Sarah Palin. Just like, what Juju.

B (5:23)

It's wild hearing that. Cause in some ways, the Internet is a reflection of what the world knows about you. And, you know, you Google yourself and you hear these Google searches bringing up other Sarahs, like Sarah Silverman or Sarah Palin. And she just sounds like almost absolutely.

C (5:38)

You know, you also hear her voice. She's 19. She's, you know, she's a kid as far as I'm concerned. Cause I have children that age. And I feel like you get a glimpse into what her friends were doing at the time. And that is where a lot of the investigation is centered, is with her friends and how much they hung out, what they knew, what she trusted, when she told them secrets. And that is how the mystery unfolds.

B (6:04)

As a journalist yourself, like, what made this sort of a unique story? Like, were there particular aspects or components here that made you go like, whoa, this actually stands out in a different way than I'm used to.

C (6:16)

So Sarah's mother died when she was younger, and it was the source of two issues. One was that obviously she was sad. But the other thing is that she then, after her mother passed, she discovered some cash. Actually a lot of it, some of which that had been damaged. Cause it was so old.

D (6:34)

Right.

C (6:35)

That became a focal point of the investigation. Obviously, what that cash did was incentivize the people who betrayed her. The thing that stuck out to me, though, Brad, which is your question, is that there was another young friend who was in this same group of friends who decided that when this happened, his conscience made him step forward and say, you know what? I had information on what happened, and that is what. What led to this sort of daring sting operation. And he risked his life, you know, getting in the car with a suspected killer. And that, to me, really sort of

B (7:11)

hit my heart, I gotta tell you, Juju. Like Listening to this episode with the sort of hidden camera and microphone in the car. I was walking my dog and I'm just like stopped there on the sidewalk listening to this tape. Because how often have you just heard a suspect bare it all like that? Like, what was it like when you heard that tape for the first time?

C (7:30)

I felt the same way you did. It stopped me in my tracks. Because there are a couple of things on that tape, and that's what makes it such a great podcast. Right. It all is audio, right. You hear him kind of nervously singing as he's on his way to the rendezvous point. His friend pats him down, bro, right before he starts to confess. Then the investigators say, I've never heard a confession spill out so fast because

B (7:54)

it barely took any prompting.

C (7:55)

It barely took any prompting. He admits to all of it and he describes it in such horrible, gruesome detail. Then he talks about how the dog witnessed all of it, which was really left me cold. And then finally the sigh at the end where he gets out of the car and he knows he's got the goods and he just exhales. And the sound of that, literally thinking about it gives me goosebumps.

B (8:22)

Well, and it feels like all of us in that moment is like, what did I just listen to? But obviously so much more high stakes for him.

C (8:28)

Completely.

B (8:29)

And by the way, juju like this, you know, we edit it down in Bridge of Lies, of course, because it's like a 45 minute video that they took from that car and there is material that did not make it into the episode. Anything that stuck out to you?

C (8:41)

Absolutely. I can't imagine how much adrenaline is going through Anthony Curry's body right. During this 45 minutes. But at one point, they're parked on a dark beach parking lot and they're, you know, the. The glass is getting foggy and they're in there together and he's sitting with his friend who he thinks may have killed another friend. And then somebody knocks on the window. Somebody comes up to them and knocks on the window of the car and they have to, like, deal with this woman.

D (9:12)

How do you roll this window down? It's over.

C (9:13)

Can you guys do me a huge favor? Give me a ride, like, right down the road?

D (9:16)

Nah, I can't. I got so much in my back. I'm sorry, I can't.

C (9:20)

Really?

D (9:20)

Yeah, please. Nah, I really can't. I'm sorry about that. What the. Yeah. Nah, nah, hell no. I'm not giving you a ride. You could steal my equipment and out of here. You don't know who you're talking to about killing people. You're gonna ask me for a ride. Get the out of here.

B (9:43)

Oh, that's wild Juju. They're just getting interrupted in the middle of kind of the height of this.

C (9:49)

Absolutely. And he even says, I'm sitting here talking about killing people, and she's knocks on the door and it's just so real. Cause she says to them, really, you can't give me a ride in the middle of. I mean, it's just such drama. And the thing is, in that moment, Anthony later tells us that he thought that it was part of the operation, that maybe the whole sting was about to go up in smoke.

D (10:12)

I always thought that was like a detective, but everybody's saying it wasn't. It was just some random lady. I thought it was like they were just checking up. I didn't know how this works. I never had to go through something like this before. Thought they were, like, checking out, but it apparently wasn't. It was just some random lady.

C (10:25)

It's wild. What are the odds, right?

B (10:27)

Unbelievable moments. And when we're talking about stuff that was sort of on the cutting room floor. When we come back, let's focus on our host. Let's talk about Juju Chang and where she kind of fits into this whole story. We're back after this.

E (10:46)

We invest in our careers, our finances, and our relationships. But when was the last time you invested in your health? Want to shed that extra weight? Need more energy throughout the day? Want to finally crush that brain fog? That's where Gobi Meds can help. And here's the best part. Unlike the other big medical weight loss and telehealth companies, Gobi Meds has zero monthly membership fees. You pay for your treatment, not a subscription. No hidden costs, just transparent access to great care. And treatments start at just $99 a month. The process is really simple. Fill out a quick consultation form. A licensed provider will review and ask any questions. And if approved, your medications will be sent directly to your door. And you can do all of this from your phone. So stop settling for tired as your new normal. Go see what the best version of you actually feels like. Head to gobymeds.com that's G-O B Y M E D S.com use code truecrime for $25 off. Go be you with gobimeds.com this show

F (11:52)

is supported by Chime. Chime is changing the way people bank. It's a smarter way of banking that eliminates all the fees you're sick of paying to your traditional bank. That's right. No more overdraft fees, minimum balance fees or monthly maintenance fees. They even offer thousands of fee free ATMs because why would you pay to access your own money? Chime members can benefit from up to $1,150 in annual rewards, all fee free. They also have game changing features like SpotMe, which lets you overdraft up to $200 with no fees. And with Chimecard you can get 5% cash back on a category of your choice like gas or groceries. Chime was built by humans for humans. That's why their customer service was rated five stars by USA Today. If you're working toward better money habits, this might fit into that Chime's not just smarter banking. It's the most rewarding way to bank Join the millions who are already banking fee free today. Head to chime.com bridge it takes just a few minutes to sign up. That's chime.com bridge Chime is a fintech, not a bank.

G (12:49)

Banking services for MyPay and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Optional products and services may have fees or charges, stated annual percentage yield and cash back for Chime prime only. No minimum balance required. Checking account ranking based on the J.D. power Survey published October 20, 2025. For more information on APY rates, MyPay, Spot Me and travel perks, go to

A (13:02)

Chime.com this show is sponsored by Quince. It's the time of year a lot of us are rethinking what's in our closets. Spring cleaning is an opportunity to pare down your wardrobe to just the best pieces, ones that are well made and easy to wear all the time. And that's where Quince shines. Quince offers elevated fabrics and thoughtful fits at a price that makes sense. You can dress up or dress down in their popular premium fabrics. Head to brunch in 100% European linen that strikes the perfect blend of laid back and refined. Or you can hit the gym in their moisture wicking super soft flow knit activewear wherever your spring takes you. You can dress to impress and rake in the compliments by showing up in Quince. Refresh your wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com bridgeoflies for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com bridgeoflies for free Shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com bridgeoflies 2020 is partnering with Vibes

F (14:14)

open ear wireless headphones. That's Vybz. If you listen to a lot of True Crime, you probably like to listen with a good pair of headphones, but it can be tricky to find a pair that provides great sound quality. That's not too overwhelming because when you're out with a podcast during a late night dog walk or pre daw run, you don't necessarily want noise cancellation that blocks out the sounds around you. That's why you'll want to get yourself a pair of Vibes, your perfect companion in audio. They're designed for maximum comfort with ultra lightweight earbuds that sit just outside the ear canal. And they offer crystal clear audio. So no matter what you're listening to, whether it's your favorite song or a sound rich True crime podcast, it'll come across loud, clear and silky smooth. The battery lasts up to 10 hours per charge and they come in a range of sleek, modern colors and styles. So what are you waiting for? Order now and you'll be listening to better sound with better headphones before you know it. For a limited time, our listeners can get more than 60% off a pair of Vibes wireless headphones. Just go to abcsecretsavings.com 2020Again, that's abcsecretsavings.Com 2020abcsecretsavings.com 2020You tell yourself no one wants

H (15:19)

your college era band tees, but on Depop people are searching for exactly what you've got. You once paid a small fortune for them at merch stands. Now a teenager who calls them vintage will offer that same small fortune back. Sell them easily on Depop, just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest. Who knew your questionable music taste would be a money making machine? Your style can make you cash start selling on Depop, where taste recognizes taste. From sauce to dust to nuggets. It's Taco Bell's new Diablo Dusted Crispy Chicken Nuggets. Are they mild? If they were mild, that at the to change the name to Little Rascal Nuggets or Minor Nuisance Nuggets. Definitely Diablo new Diablo Dusted Crispy Chicken Nuggets, a brand new classic only at Taco bell at participating U.S. taco Bell locations for a limited time and while supplies last.

B (16:16)

And we are back. And I'm extra excited for this part because Juju, I want to talk about you because you've been with ABC News since well before me. You've been covering Huge stories. You've been the face of the network in so many ways. You're a pro now with Bridge of Lies. You add something new. You're podcast host all of a sudden. How different is an audio podcast from the TV work that you've always done?

C (16:36)

Well, I have to say, hats off to the podcasting team here at ABC Audio. This is my, as you say, my first voyage into the world of podcasting. And it's such a different kind of storytelling, which I respect so much, because, you know, I love the idea of sound design, right? Because you're just sort of able to layer it with sound and music and audio, and you get to live in the audio of it in a different way. And, you know, the one cue that I kept getting from our producers, like, juju, slow down. Like, you know, think about what you're saying. Build a visual picture. And it was really helpful because I'm used to doing it in a broadcast voice where you can see the picture that I'm describing. Right. But now we're slowing down and asking you to create those images in your own head. And it's a stirring, different kind of podcast. And, you know, Brad, I'm a huge fan of podcasts. I listen to start here every day. I'm constantly emailing you.

B (17:33)

You text me after episodes.

D (17:34)

You.

C (17:34)

Like, I constantly text you after episodes. And I'm a girl who listens to podcasts on my dog walk every day, so I understand and appreciate this level of. Of detail when it comes to this kind of storytelling.

B (17:46)

Yeah, but juju, for people who don't know, like, what is the actual process like? Like, how does the actual pod come together in your eyes?

C (17:53)

Well, to my mind, I am incredibly impressed by our producers because they're leapfrogging each other on episodes, right. And they know this material cold. I mean, I've worked on a lot of 2020producers are phenomenal as well. But these podcast producers have literally read every transcript. They've read every court document. They're constantly, like, schooling me on, no, no, you can't change that word juju. And it's incredibly layered, Right? Not just the editorial, but the sounds and the music and everything else that helps create this richness of the scenery that goes into this kind of podcasting.

B (18:32)

It is interesting how much of a team operation it is that I think people don't quite understand, right?

C (18:36)

Oh, absolutely. Plus, I get to sit in the studio and wear sweatpants and not worry about what my hair and makeup look like.

B (18:44)

Yeah, exactly. And in a broader news sense, because you've covered lots of different types of stories. What draws you to a true crime story? What do you look for?

C (18:53)

You know, it's interesting. I have done a lot of 2,020s, and I've done a lot of true crime for Nightline as well, which is the show, as you know, that I co anchor. But I've always looked for true crime stories as a means to an end, like to talk about mass incarceration or to talk about criminalized survivorship when domestic violence survivors get over penalized, or talk about consent or talk about different types of crimes or redemption arcs. Right. But. But I recently signed on to help develop a comedy about true crime. And I was googling up, why do people love true crime, including myself? And I think I know the answer. But then when I Googled it up, it said, actually, women like it because they like to be able to find the sort of COVID narcissist in their lives. So it's called a defensive posture. Psychologically, they're watching to protect themselves.

B (19:52)

Because, like, I see these behaviors in my life.

C (19:55)

Right, right. The husband who is accused of trying to pummel and throw his, you know, wife off of a Hawaii cliff, the husband who this, the husband who that, or frankly, the wife who was convicted of maybe fentanyl poisoning her husband with a Moscow mule. I mean, like, these are, like, things that you kind of are taking mental notes on, but also for women who are true crime enthusiasts, and I count myself among them. You also love the stories. To me, the heroism of the investigators. I have interviewed so many investigators, Brad, who've left me with tears in my eyes because their dedication and their desire to do what's right and to find justice and to get some comfort for victims, families, and to be able to bring these people to life. You know, Sarah Stern's life was snuffed out at 19. And to be able to talk about her art and to be able to talk about the scholarship they endowed in her name, to be able to talk about who she was, who she wanted to be, is really a gift. And so for me, the podcast allowed us to delve into all that.

B (21:05)

But I think it's so valuable that what you described is so many of these stories that we think of them as individual stories, but they do have these sort of universal. I don't know if they're lessons or just, like, reflections of the culture. And that's so valuable even in this. Like, you're hearing somebody with, like, these psychopathic tendencies that you might not have known about in real life. And yet it's there, lurking the whole time. That tells you something totally.

C (21:29)

And that is drama. That is pathos. That is, you know, King Lear. That is Shakespearean or Greek epic tragedy. It is storytelling as it has been for millennia. And podcasting is just a modern, you know, view of that. And I think true crime is, you know, it is expanding for a reason. I think it. It allows us to dive into psychology. And sometimes it's a psychopath, and sometimes it's a who's trying to do something, you know, and thinks he or she can get away with it.

B (22:01)

You kind of just mentioned several examples, so I don't want to put you on the spot, but I mean, if you had a Mount Rushmore of sort of true crime stories in your time at abc, what are they like? There's been so many.

C (22:13)

I mean, honestly, I recently went to LA and did the story of the Menendez brothers appeal. Right. And that is a story that has been in our media echo chamber for 35 years.

B (22:28)

And like our collective consciousness.

C (22:30)

Right, exactly. And I think that the reexamination of that prosecution, the reexamination of what sex crimes against children do, the trauma of that is seen in a different light today than it was 35 years ago. And I think, again, it brings up all these issues. I have gone to Bedford Women's Prison and talked to Pamela's Smart repeatedly. Because, as you know, before the O.J. simpson trial, her trial was the trial of the century. It was at the dawn of Court tv. She was convicted of aiding and abetting a group of young men, one of whom she had an affair with, who killed her husband. And that now, again, 35 years later, that redemption arc, or the attempt at a redemption arc is really fascinating. Cause she has been a model citizen behind bars for 30 plus years. My name is Pamela Smart. I'm accused of being an accomplice to the murder of my husband Greg. But I am not guilty. You've been through many appeals processes. Your new lawyer is arguing that your constitutional rights were violated. They were. During trial. And that you didn't get a fair trial. I did not. So it, again, it raises a lot of questions in our minds when we tell these stories. The other one is the Murdoch story. We interviewed the stars of the sort of scripted series based on it. And the level of attention. Talk about knowing the trial details. They knew every iota of that case. But also talk about Shakespearean. That was an epic family that was brought to its knees with this controversy. And you could See the decline of this, the house of Murdoch, as it were. And then finally, I think near mythological. And that is the Black Dahlia case and the Zodiac killers case. And I interviewed Alex Baber and he is the true crime sleuth, you know, an amateur detective on some level who set out to crack the zodiac code. What does all this circumstantial evidence say to you?

F (24:41)

Marvin Margolis is a zodiac killer and

C (24:44)

the Black Dahlia avenger and believes, you know, to his mind, he has proven that the Zodiac killer was also responsible for the Black Dahlia killing. Hear that? Sure.

F (24:55)

Without sounding cocky or arrogant, I have to say yes, I am undoubtedly sure that this is the right guy and

C (25:02)

he has made all sorts of breakthroughs and he has law enforcement interested. And that story was told on Nightline and also on Impact by Nightline, which shameless plug moment was. Also gives us an opportunity to dive deeper, kind of like this podcast does, to go behind the headlines, to go deeper and more layered into this kind of storytelling.

B (25:25)

And featured on Start here, of course.

C (25:27)

Of course.

B (25:28)

Just like such good reporting in this podcast, in particular on Bridge of Lies, Juju, really impressive work and thank you so much for doing this. I think it really helps us learn a little bit more about the host who's been guiding us for these six episodes.

C (25:40)

Thank you so much, Brad, for having me. But honestly, one of my favorite parts of the podcast is being able to read the credits because it's so fun to like say my friends names and my colleagues names and give credit where credit is due.

B (25:52)

All right, well, with that in mind, I should say Juju Chang is the host of Bridge of Lies. She's the co anchor of Nightline. Congrats on the series. And if you are listening to this right now, you've probably listened to the rest of the series. But make sure to rate and review the show. Wherever you're listening, Juju and the whole team will thank you for it. You want to listen for the next true crime series from ABC Audio? It's called Blood and Water. It's the story of a mother who's murdered in the suburbs of Washington, D.C. her case remained unsolved for two decades and the shocking truth about the killer stayed hidden until very recently when new technology allowed investigators to do what had once been Blood and Water, hosted by Stephanie ramos. It's coming April 28th. I'm Brad Nilke. Thanks for listening.

C (26:39)

Foreign.

H (26:46)

You didn't start a business just to keep the lights on. You're here to sell more today than yesterday. You're here to win. Lucky for you, Shopify built the best converting checkout on the planet. Like the just one tapping ridiculously fast acting sky high sales stacking champion at checkouts. That's the good stuff right there. So if your business is in it to win it, win with Shopify. Start your free trial today@shopify.com win.

G (27:16)

Hey, it's Nikki Glaser and my new stand up special Good Girl is coming to Hulu April 24th. Every single woman loves Good girl and guys don't want to say it because they're like, it sounds like I'm her dad and it's like, exactly. Okay, just be my my dad at Starbucks. This girl came up to me and she was like, are you? And I was like, yeah. And she was like, aware there's a bandaid in your hair. Don't miss Good Girl on April 24th. Streaming on Hulu terms apply.