Deborah Roberts (3:27)

With previous crimes, oftentimes no records.

Ryan Smith (3:30)

Exactly. Oftentimes no records. So you're talking about heat of passion situations, Situations where people's emotions, because of love, drove them to do something that was really beyond their normal behavior.

Deborah Roberts (3:43)

Yeah, I agree with you. And you and I can peel back and look at some of the ones that we've covered. But as you're talking about this, I'm thinking about, you know, a story that I covered in Minnesota where, you know, someone actually betrayed his wife, and this guy had never been in trouble, in fact, was quite religious, and they're supposed to be going to church that morning when she's killed. What do you make of the motives? Because oftentimes these are folks who are trying to either cover their tracks or sometimes they're involved in, you know, duplicitous relationships. Talk to me a little bit about the motives.

Ryan Smith (4:14)

It's interesting that you talk about this. One thing that shocked me when I first started working on 2020s was how many of these cases involve people who are living double lives, as we call them, or have a relationship in one spot and then another relationship somewhere else. That's the motive a lot of times. Sometimes it deals Our episodes deal with custody issues can be the motive. Other times it can be control issues, can be the motive. Somebody didn't do what I wanted, and I wanted them to change their behavior. So now I'm taking this action. But it all still comes back to the basic human feelings that we have. Just these are those feelings that are far beyond the pale. So, for example, we have an episode that involves a custody situation. And in that particular situation, you would argue, well, there's so many ways to handle that. But sometimes people feel it's gotten out of control and that there's no other way to do anything except take this extreme action. So the motives can be all over the place.

Deborah Roberts (5:08)

And they feel boxed in.

Ryan Smith (5:09)

Yeah, they feel boxed in. You make a great point. That's exactly right.

Deborah Roberts (5:12)

That's what gets me. And you raise an interesting point when you talk about these double lives. I mean, those are the things of TV dramas. Right? One of the ones that of course I remember so well is we call it love you to death is this case of Molly Watson, who was found murdered on a dark country road. She was getting ready to get married. Her new marriage license was in her car. Her boyfriend of seven years. So she'd been seeing somebody for seven years, and she's got her new license there in the back of the car. And when police find her, they feel like they're gonna go and drop this horrible news on this fiance who's gonna be just devastated. And they shockingly discovered his wife. His wife at home. That he's got a double life. I was the correspondent on this story and I still think about it to this day for a lot of reasons. But let's listen to a clip. I talked to Melanie Addy, who is the ex wife of the perpetrator, James Addie, and it was the first time she had actually given an interview. Let's take a listen. The police tell you.

Melanie Addy (6:13)

Yes.

Deborah Roberts (6:14)

That your husband has a dead fiance.

Melanie Addy (6:17)

Yes.

Deborah Roberts (6:17)

And he's engaged to the woman.

Melanie Addy (6:19)

Yeah.

Deborah Roberts (6:19)

And you're learning all of this in one night Immediately.

Melanie Addy (6:22)

Yeah.

Deborah Roberts (6:22)

And you've been married for 20, 23 years. What did you think?

Melanie Addy (6:27)

I can't even tell you. It was just mind boggling. It made no sense at all. None.

Deborah Roberts (6:33)

Were you angry? Were you hurt? What were you feeling?

Melanie Addy (6:37)

Probably just disbelief in the beginning. Didn't seem right. This was not my life.

Deborah Roberts (6:43)

Did you think that your husband was capable of murder?

Melanie Addy (6:48)

Yes. It just seemed like something he would do to fix a problem. He was a pretty selfish person. He could be controlling and intimidating and it could be challenging.

Ryan Smith (7:03)

Wow.

Deborah Roberts (7:04)

Right? Wow. Yeah, I.

Ryan Smith (7:06)

First of all, I can't believe she said yes. But then also, I'm not only registering the shock from her, but the shock in your voice as you're going through it.

Deborah Roberts (7:13)

Yeah, I was. I was, you know, the incredulity because, you know, you have to think that People are going to wonder if you've been married to somebody for 23 years. Did you see any signs? You know, and I. And I did go into that thinking, you know, come on, you had to have seen something. I was a little surprised at how matter of fact she was about it. She was clearly still very hurt by it. But she absolutely stood by her story that she, you know, they had problems in their marriage, and, you know, they weren't necessarily probably on the best of terms. You know, he went his way, she would go to bed early. You know, they didn't have a great marriage, but she never, ever would have imagined. And Ryan, remember, he worked at a prison. And so, you know, this is somebody you would expect to at least think about, you know, right and wrong and so forth. So I just. I wanted to sort of represent the viewer there with those questions and the shock of what she told me. First of all, my heart went out to her because her life just blew up as she knew it. But wow is right.

Ryan Smith (8:14)

I mean, and I also like the fact that you talk about this idea, because a lot of people ask me about this as well, that how could this person not have known? How could you not know? I mean, this is your husband, your spouse. And then they try to make, I think, in many ways, judgments on the relationship. I'm not trying to say that everybody should or should not know in different situations. I'm just saying, like, I think sometimes what I've learned a lot of times, Deborah, from these stories is you have no idea the lengths that people sometimes go to try to cover something that's going on in their lives. And sometimes when that happens, it can be extremely difficult for people to know what's happening.

Deborah Roberts (8:52)

Yeah. And, you know, what was interesting, too, about this story is that, you know, clearly they have problems in their marriage because he would go out, supposedly with his buddies, and on this particular night, he went out with his buddies. But he went to great lengths to, you know, cover his tracks. He would say he was going off to some kind of a convention or some kind of a meeting out of town. Of course he's with Molly. This relationship goes on. And this is the part, I think, that intrigues people so much, is that probably James Addy was content to just continue this affair. But Molly, with no knowledge, of course, that this guy is living a double life, wants to get married. And so he is going to honor that at a certain point. You know, she's pushing. She's pushing. She wants to get married, and he's got to figure it out. So he goes so far as to get the marriage license. And, you know, he's caught on videotape. You see the two of them on surveillance tape going to the office to go get the marriage license, and, you know, his mind is spinning. What am I going to do? What am I going to do? And that's the kind of stuff I think that people find so intriguing. But, Ryan, one of the things that I so enjoy about this kind of a conversation, us getting a chance to talk about these stories that we cover, is sharing with our viewers and our listeners the things that happen behind the scenes, right? Whether we're struggling to work a story and get some video that maybe something goes wrong or, you know, those kinds of things. But in this particular instance, this was one I will never forget. We are interviewing. We are interviewing Melanie Addy, and we have a hair and makeup team there who to touch her up, to touch me up. So we're sitting there doing this interview, and after we finish, when I go back behind the scenes to say something to them, they both, these two women are standing there, their face is almost ashen, and they said, we have something to tell you. We have to tell you something. I said, what is that? We knew Molly. We were the hair and makeup team hired for her wedding. We knew this woman. We knew something happened to her. We never knew what. And then they proceed to play the last audio clip they have of her on their cell phone, you know, talking about the wedding. Hey, Crystal, this is Molly Watson. I just wanted to call you and get my dowager. And I forgot you guys spoke with three today. I mean, it was stunning. We didn't get a chance to put that in our piece, but it was just like, what?

Ryan Smith (11:14)

Wow, I can't believe that now, them hearing that firsthand, standing right there with you, I can't believe that. Just in real time, they're like, oh, my goodness, that job that canceled on us was this woman.

Deborah Roberts (11:25)

And they had no idea because they didn't know what had happened to her. They didn't know what story we were there covering. So as they're hearing all of this unfold, they're thinking, wait a second, this is familiar. So these unusual things happen to us sometimes behind the scenes. And that, I have to say, is probably one of the strangest ones for me.

Ryan Smith (11:43)

I have never had that happen. Somebody on the set who was in some way connected to what happened. I've never had that happen. But that is. That is remarkable.

Deborah Roberts (11:52)

That's mind blowing. So, you know, I just thought you'd get a kick out of hearing it. Well, listen, let's take a quick break because when we come back, there are more stories about double lives and crimes of passion from our bad romance series.

Ryan Smith (12:03)

Foreign.

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Deborah Roberts (13:06)

See full terms@mintmobile.com welcome back to the 2020 After Show. I'm Debra Roberts here with Ryan Smith, my pal and colleague here at 2020 and Ryan, one of the stories you presented we have called Betrayed, which aired last week. And it's the story of Angel Goyena, who was murdered in her home with her mom while planning her wedding to David Hoshaw. And investigators are struggling to find clues. And then they get these letters, these bizarre letters sent to police by somebody claiming to have killed both of the women. Let's take a listen. Days are passing and there's no arrest, no clues, no clear direction.

Ryan Smith (13:53)

But then a development that most murder investigations never see. A letter from the killer. And it's postmarked from Chicago.

David Hoshaw (14:04)

You don't have a clue, do you? I met the pretty biatch at the beach a few days before I killed her. She had her mother with her. She told me she was getting married in September, but she wanted to have one last fling beforehand. It references angel and her mother going to the beach.

Deborah Roberts (14:22)

Now investigators cross check her diary where she actually talks about going to the beach with her mom. Me and mom decided not to waste a good day and we're ready to be on the beach by 8am or so. And the dates line up.

Ryan Smith (14:39)

How would the writer know all this unless they knew the women unless they were actually there.

Deborah Roberts (14:45)

Chilling stuff. David Hoshaw is ultimately revealed to be the killer. And similar to the last story we talked about, he's leading a double life. But these letters, these haunting letters taunting police. Ryan, what was that all about?

Ryan Smith (14:57)

Yeah, it was so strange, this case. He was writing him to cover his tracks. But this case was a really strange one in that when you talk about David Hoshaw, he actually initially had an alibi in this situation. So as time went by, though, he felt the need to kind of COVID his tracks. So he writes these letters, sort of baiting police, trying to throw police off. But what he didn't plan on, and I think people are really gonna find this interesting when they watch the episodes, are that his cell phone records and his credit card receipts ended up putting him in the vicinity of some of the postmarks on the letters that ended up connecting officers and investigators to him. He was with one woman. He was trying to get married to her, but then met someone else and trying to break it off. If he would have handled it differently, maybe it would have ended differently. But even in the aftermath of the killing, his behavior with the letters and the different things he wrote kind of reminds you of a movie, right? Somebody sending these letters, please come and get me. What are you going to do? He's trying to throw them off, and what he did was essentially give himself.

Deborah Roberts (16:00)

Up, and instead he's drawing them closer to him.

Ryan Smith (16:03)

Exactly.

Deborah Roberts (16:03)

And that's what's interesting. I'm sure you see this and you feel this all the time. You know, when we're examining these stories and you're thinking, how is it people think that they're gonna get away with this? In this case, if he hadn't sent the letters, he might have actually gone for a long time getting away with it. But don't you find yourself asking folks, what about divorce?

Ryan Smith (16:22)

All the time. All the time. And it's exactly what we're talking about. It's this idea of, can't you just handle something differently? Like, in this case, this was a man who was engaged to one woman and then ended up connecting with another woman, who we end up speaking to in the episode. And so he tries to then break it off with the first woman, but instead it kind of gets out of control and things happen. Part of his story is it went beyond what I thought was gonna happen, but there are so many different ways to handle these issues. But I come back to the same thing we talked about before. When emotion and passion and love are involved, all bets are off. And I can't tell you. I know I keep saying this, that people stop me and ask me about these episodes. But the other thing people say is, you know, why don't people just think it through more? Why would you do it that way? Because when you're in a situation like this and there is so much passion and so much emotion, you are not thinking clearly by default. Think about all the times when you've been in love. I could tell you, at least for me, when I've been in love, like, I would love to sit up here and say, the only time I've been in love is with my wife. But there were times before.

Deborah Roberts (17:25)

Okay, all right, we'll buy that.

Ryan Smith (17:27)

Maybe once or twice, maybe only once. But when I was in those situations, I can look back and say, why'd I do that? Why'd I do this? And I think these cases that we cover, it's that times a hundred, it's emotions or, you know, anger or different things coming in times 100. And when that happens, all the things that make sense go right out the window.

Deborah Roberts (17:50)

Explosive situations. Well, that's why they call it a crime of passion, obviously. You know, you mentioned the messiness of that one. And another story that I cover too, that was pretty messy, but also in involved all of this betrayal was one that we called Barefoot Witness. And this one still sticks with me too, because I'm just, I'm blown away sometimes that people can actually turn on someone that they purported to love. Right? And not just turn on them, but just become violent. And this was the story of a schoolteacher, Lintell Washington. She was voted teacher of the year. She was a woman who by all accounts was, you know, just, you know, a great educator. But. But sadly, she didn't do so well in the department of, you know, picking men. She was in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. She really wanted love. In this case, when we start off the story, it begins with her three year old daughter who is discovered wandering alone in a parking lot in Baton Rouge with blood on her feet. And days later, an extensive search turns up her mom's body. I worked on this story and I was just not only shocked, first of all, that there's a three year old child involved and who had to witness, you know, something horrible, but that the man that Lintell, you know, loved and thought loved her would actually wind up being charged here. So let's listen to a clip from this story. At what point did you know that she was interested in Robert Marks?

Lintell Washington's Friend (19:14)

She shows me a picture of him and So I say, okay, he's nice looking. And she just started beaming like she.

Deborah Roberts (19:22)

Was she in love?

Lintell Washington's Friend (19:23)

Yes, she was. I think she had her disappointments. And so now finally she gets someone who's Dr. Robert Marks, and he wants her. He's pursuing her.

Deborah Roberts (19:40)

A new love, the promise of a new family. It's everything Lintel's been hoping for. But she. She has no idea what truly lies ahead. Something horrible has happened to Lintell, Washington, and where is she? So you hear from her friends there who, you know, were advising her and felt so horrible. But when you think about Ryan, her child, her daughter caught in the wreckage of this murder, and she gave the lead to investigators because she's so tiny, but she was able to say, Mr. Robbie put the blood in the car. And that started to lead police to him.

Ryan Smith (20:17)

That information, that important clue, it stands out to me so much about this episode because the worst part of cases like this, that we cover, at least I think, are the ones that involve children. And when you have a child, I always like to tell people cases like this, they don't happen. And then investigators research it for a week, and then the case is solved in two weeks.

Deborah Roberts (20:38)

Like on television.

Ryan Smith (20:39)

Yeah, exactly. It takes years, courtrooms, the little child having to tell this story probably several times, and all the trauma that she's gone through in all of this. And that's what's so harrowing about this story, Deborah, that you did. I really want people to see it because I want them to understand not only the effect of a case like this and how the emotions and the love of a situation can make things turn so wrong, but also the involvement of children in some of this.

Deborah Roberts (21:07)

Yeah, yeah. And that trauma, when you think about that. Well, I got to meet the daughter years later, and she seemed to be doing pretty well, but you know that that's something she's going to live with. Well, Ryan, we're going to take another quick break, and when we come back, we want to hear more about what's coming up in the Bad Romance series.

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Deborah Roberts (22:01)

We'Re back with Ryan Smith. And, Ryan, this has been so intriguing, talking about these stories that you and I cover. And I'm just amazed that people stop you on the street because they feel so connected to these stories.

Ryan Smith (22:12)

Yes. The reason you're doing this podcast is so helpful for a lot of people because what they do is they see our stories and then they want to say, I saw it and you helped tell it, so you got to tell me more. And so I'm like, okay, so this and that. And then we go through it, and then they want to dissect it.

Deborah Roberts (22:27)

They want to know more behind the scenes.

Ryan Smith (22:28)

Exactly. So they're going to love this because they want to know as much as they can about the stories. And that's what makes this work so powerful, I think. Deborah, I don't know how you feel about it, but it's true crime for a reason. Crime that we watch on tv, csi, things like that, those are interesting. But when it actually happened in real life, you almost can't believe it happened. And you want to know more.

Deborah Roberts (22:47)

You're absolutely right. And people often want to know about the particular people that we interview. And I don't know how you feel about it, but, you know, at the end of the day, these are horrible crimes. They are traumatic situations. People's lives have been blown up as a result and forever changed. And we're talking to them about deeply personal, intimate matters, you know, oftentimes about their personal lives and how they either didn't see it coming and. Or just how it's affected them. How about you in covering those interviews? Because for me, there are times I leave them kind of shaken.

Ryan Smith (23:18)

I feel the same way for all these interviews, especially when we're dealing with people who've lost someone. I try to look at it first, like I'm trying to honor them first. So, for example, if I'm interviewing someone who's lost a loved one, I want them to be able to tell the story of their loved one. And what I do a lot of times is I'll stop if they feel. And I'll try to say, are you okay? Do you want to share more? How do you feel? I understand that we have a desire to tell as much of the story as we can, but I also feel like it's their story to tell. So for me, I always take it from a place of how can we help you best express what you feel about what happened.

Deborah Roberts (23:59)

Yeah, I agree with you. And sometimes people have said to me, too, that they felt a sense of catharsis afterwards. I mean, there's no greater compliment to me when I'm doing an interview with someone who has endured something so horrible than when they say afterwards, you made this so much easier than I thought it would have been. And it was so it's a relief to share my story. And you made me feel so much better doing it. That's the greatest compliment. Right?

Ryan Smith (24:23)

I love that. And I love it when people, a lot of sometimes people say to me, hey, thank you for doing it that way. And that really makes me feel good. If they can feel at the end of it some good has come out of this for them, then I feel like I've done what I'm supposed to do.

Deborah Roberts (24:38)

I totally agree with you. Well, you've got a lot more coming up. We're just a little more than halfway through the series. You've got three more episodes to go. Any one that really is intriguing to you or has captured your attention more than others.

Ryan Smith (24:52)

One that really stands out to me is this story called Doomsday Bride. It's a case that a lot of people may know of a woman named Lori Valo Daybell. She was involved with a man, Chad Daybell. This was a very big story for a very long time. She's in a relationship, and it's sort of a twisted story. She uprooted her life to be with Chad. And Chad is this doomsday preacher. He talks about the end of times. And Laurie becomes a believer herself, and then her children go missing. So Laurie recently faced a new charge in Arizona, and she was found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder for the death of her fourth husband, Charles Vallow. She served as her own attorney in that case.

Deborah Roberts (25:33)

Yeah. Yeah. We've seen pictures of her in court. I remember when this story first broke. It was during the pandemic, actually. I remember following it and maybe doing a report or two on Good Morning America. But there's so much to this, as you said, still unfolding. So much to keep an eye on. And then, of course, I have to throw in that you're a lawyer as well. So you look at these stories from a very different point of view. Oftentimes when you're sitting down. I'm sure I do.

Ryan Smith (25:57)

I do. It's one of the things I think works when I do these interviews and when I talk to people, just using my legal mind, how a case comes together, how evidence comes together to help them tell their stories.

Deborah Roberts (26:08)

Yeah. That makes such a difference. Well, you bring a different perspective. And it's always such a pleasure to talk with you. So thanks so much for joining us. And that's going to do it for us today. We thank you for joining us. Make sure to tune in to the rest of the Bad Romance series Tuesdays at 10:00pm on ABC. And as always, tune into 2020 Friday nights at 9:00. The 2020 After show is produced by Cameron Shatavian and Sasha Oslanian with thanks to Ann Reynolds, Brian Mazerski and Alex Barenfeld of 2020 Theme music by Evan Viola. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020, Josh Cohen the director of podcasting at ABC Audio, and Laura Mayer is the executive producer.

Ryan Smith (26:57)

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Deborah Roberts (26:59)

We have a little girl here for adoption.

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Something is off.

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She's just a little girl.

Deborah Roberts (27:07)

You think she's faking?

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