The After Show: Dirty Little Secret

Summary

Podcast Summary: 20/20 After Show – "Dirty Little Secret"

Episode Details

• Title: The After Show: Dirty Little Secret
• Host/Author: ABC News – 20/20
• Release Date: March 24, 2025

---

Introduction

In this compelling episode of 20/20 After Show, hosted by Debra Roberts, ABC News delves deep into the enigmatic case of Matt Baker, a charismatic minister from Hewitt, Texas. Titled "Dirty Little Secret", the episode unpacks the layers of deception, community trust, and relentless pursuit of truth that ultimately led to the unraveling of a seemingly perfect family life.

Background of the Case

Matt Baker was a beloved pastor and a dedicated family man, leading his congregation and raising two young daughters with his wife, Carrie Baker, who served as a Sunday school teacher. Their lives were abruptly shattered when Carrie was found dead, initially ruled as a suicide. While the community mourned, Carrie's family harbored suspicions, believing that there was more to her death.

Denise Martinez reflects on the initial shock:

"It's a southern town, a fairly youngish preacher with his family. And, you know, that just sort of shocked everybody."
[02:51]

The Investigation by Carrie's Family

Not convinced by the suicide ruling, Carrie's relatives formed a group they dubbed the "Charlie's Angels of Waco", embarking on their own investigation. Their dogged determination uncovered unsettling truths about Matt Baker, including lies and alleged adultery, which eventually drew law enforcement's attention.

Debra Roberts highlights the family's role:

"They took it upon themselves to do their own investigation... it was because of their persistence and determination that this case actually was able to get solved and get justice."
[11:05]

Archival Footage and Character Analysis

A significant portion of the episode analyzes archival interviews with Matt Baker, showcasing his layered persona. Initially portrayed as a soft-spoken and caring father, Baker's demeanor begins to shift over time, revealing a more complex and possibly sinister character.

Debra Roberts discusses Matt’s dual life:

"By day he is leading his congregation and then he comes home, he's a dad, but at the same time he's having this salacious affair on the side."
[03:27]

The producers, Denise Martinez and Samantha Wanderer, meticulously sifted through hours of footage and new interviews to present a comprehensive view of Matt Baker's actions and motives.

The After Show Discussion

In a candid conversation, Debra Roberts engages with producers Denise Martinez and Samantha Wanderer to explore the depths of the investigation and the production process behind uncovering new evidence.

Denise Martinez notes the importance of archival research:

"We get the time to present the viewers, like a real time how the story evolved over time."
[09:15]

One of the most revealing aspects of the episode is the re-examination of a 2007 interview with Matt Baker, where his innocence was palpable. However, subsequent interviews showed inconsistencies as Baker became more defensive, raising suspicions about his involvement in Carrie’s death.

Key Highlights and Notable Moments

1. Recreation of the Crime Scene:
   To challenge Matt Baker's claims during the trial, the production team recreated the bedroom scene with a dummy to test the feasibility of his actions within the stated timeframe.

   Matt Baker explains the challenge:

   "Right. It was just under £200. It was roughly the weight of Carrie at the time of her death... someone helped me get it into my car."
   [14:55]

   This experiment demonstrated the improbability of Baker's account, supporting the prosecution's argument and casting further doubt on his testimony.

2. Vanessa Bowles' Testimony:
   Vanessa Bowles, the other woman involved in Baker's alleged affair, played a critical role. Initially hesitant, Bowles ultimately provided key testimony that exposed Baker's plot to kill Carrie, significantly impacting the jury's perception.

   Debra Roberts on Bowles' credibility:

   "The testimony was key to get him convicted."
   [18:42]

3. Emotional Impact on Law Enforcement:
   The episode also sheds light on the emotional toll the case took on investigators like Texas Ranger Matt Cawthon and investigator Abdin Rodriguez, showcasing their dedication to seeking justice for Carrie.

   Debra Roberts describes Ranger Cawthon:

   "He is really down to earth and cared deeply about the people that he was trying to help."
   [20:39]

4. Impact on Carrie's Daughters:
   Central to the narrative is the profound effect on Matt and Carrie's two daughters, who had to navigate life without their mother and, eventually, their father. The episode empathetically portrays their journey towards understanding the truth of their mother's death.

   Debra Roberts shares her personal connection:

   "Their daughters were roughly the same age as my two older daughters are now... It must have been so difficult for them."
   [22:22]

Conclusion

"Dirty Little Secret" serves as a poignant exploration of trust, deception, and the relentless pursuit of truth within a community blindsided by tragedy. Through meticulous research, emotional interviews, and compelling reenactments, ABC News' 20/20 After Show provides listeners with an in-depth understanding of Matt Baker's case, honoring the resilience of Carrie Baker's family and the determined investigators who sought justice.

---

Notable Quotes

• "Nobody expected that even when he was arrested, I think nobody believed that he could be responsible for the murder."
  Debra Roberts
  [03:38]

• "We don't think Carrie killed herself."
  Samantha Wanderer
  [01:43]

• "Right, right. And it was shocking to see even his demeanor change over the years."
  Matt Baker
  [04:29]

• "The prosecutors felt that this could not have been done in that time frame."
  Debra Roberts
  [13:52]

• "The testimony was key to get him convicted."
  Debra Roberts
  [18:42]

---

This episode not only uncovers the dark facets of a trusted community leader but also underscores the importance of vigilance and perseverance in seeking justice. For listeners intrigued by true crime mysteries and investigative journalism, "Dirty Little Secret" offers a thorough and emotionally resonant narrative that leaves a lasting impact.

Transcript

[Debra Roberts]

Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance.

[John Quinones]

And keep an eye on your kids.

[Debra Roberts]

Spending with real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money. With guardrails in place. Try Greenlight risk free [e-mail] Spotify.

[Denise Martinez]

Hi there, 2020 podcast listeners. Welcome to the 2020 After Show. I'm Debra Roberts and on Friday night we brought you a show called Dirty Little Secret. Matt Baker was a charismatic minister in Hewitt, Texas, and he was leading a life at the center of his community along with his wife, Carrie Baker, who was a Sunday school teacher at the church. They had two little girls. So when Carrie died of what appeared to be suicide, the community rallied around the grief stricken pastor. But Carrie's family didn't. They suspected that something was amiss. Calling themselves the Charlie's Angels of Waco, they launched their own investigation, revealing something that was pretty shocking in this church community. Lies and adultery. And ultimately, of course, they helped law enforcement uncover Matt's plan to kill his wife. Here's a clip from the show. I remember Nancy saying, linda, have you ever considered that perhaps Carrie didn't take her life? I remember stammering and saying, what are you talking about, murder?

[Samantha Wanderer]

We don't think Carrie killed herself.

[Matt Baker]

We know she didn't.

[Denise Martinez]

We all hung on those words too on last week's 20 20. On today's 2020 After Show, I get the pleasure to talk to 2020 producer Denise Martinez, R.A. who I normally talk to in the field, but today we get to talk a little more formally. And associate producer Samantha Wanderer. They both were a big part of telling this story, sifting through hours of archival interviews 2020 conducted over the years, really with Matt Baker and speaking to new voices to help John Quinones take a fresh look at this case. So welcome to both of you.

[Debra Roberts]

Thank you, Deborah.

[Matt Baker]

Thanks for having us.

[Denise Martinez]

This is kind of wild. We're actually getting to talk in this formal way. So, Denise, let me start with you because you and I have worked on countless stor and you have this knack for digging, digging, digging into the old files and finding things that maybe either we thought was sort of interesting at the time or maybe not as much and then you find something new. So what is it about this story? And of course, we've covered a lot of stories that involve hypocrisy and, you know, ministers in the church and all of that. But what was it about this one?

[Debra Roberts]

I think this story is really fascinating on so many levels. I mean, here you have a preacher, and he's not only a preacher, he's also a dad, you know, of two young girls. Going through the footage, I mean, you can see how complex of a character he is. I mean, you have somebody who by day he is leading his congregation and then he comes home, he's a dad, but at the same time he's having this salacious affair on the side. You know, one of the attorneys call him a dark angel, that he has this complex Persona. And so it's very interesting to kind of dig deeper and see how many layers this story has and that we can kind of bring it to our.

[Denise Martinez]

Audience and have friends and in small town Texas too. So you're talking a southern town, a fairly youngish preacher with his family. And, you know, that just sort of shocked everybody.

[Debra Roberts]

It shocked everybody in the community. I think nobody expect that. Even when he was arrested, I think nobody believed that he could be responsible for the murder.

[Denise Martinez]

Now, Samantha, you were deeply involved in this story from the beginning, and you dug through all of the footage and we're gonna talk about that and how that made such a difference. But tell me about what drew you to this one.

[Matt Baker]

Yeah, so I grew up Baptist and I had a lot of pastors and ministers that I was really close to in my church community. And just thinking about how someone in that position could not only murder his wife, but also have an affair and do that with two small children in the home that he knows that he should be taken care of.

[Denise Martinez]

Yeah. And when you approach this, you know, again, as I said to Denise, you know, you're talking small town America. And you've gotta kinda dig into that psyche too, of just how shocking this is to people when something like this is revealed.

[Matt Baker]

Right, right. And it was shocking to see even his demeanor change over the years. The different interviews we did with him. At first he's so soft spoken, and then over time, you see him start to shift the way that he acts.

[Denise Martinez]

This happened back in 2006. And, you know, when we go way back, it's sort of hard sometimes when we're trying to look into this. But archival footage played a big part of this. We're talking about this man who was convicted, his time in prison. Tell me all about that. And going back in time.

[Debra Roberts]

Yeah. I think this is unlike any other story that I've worked On. Because here we had three different interviews with Matt Baker. One of them actually took place after he had been arrested and out on bail. So he let us embed on his home. So we are seeing him playing around his daughters, helping with homework. And here's the man who had killed his wife.

[Denise Martinez]

But at that time, of course, he's saying he had nothing to do with it. And I have nothing to hide, right?

[Debra Roberts]

Yes. And when you look at the footage, me as a mom, I'm looking at him as a very caring, very dad. He's helping his daughters. He talks about help them, you know, pick their outfits for the day. So I myself am doubting could this man have done that? So you can tell how he was comfortable on what he believed and thought that he could convince everybody.

[Denise Martinez]

It's In Kerrville, about 200 miles from Hewitt, that our cameras catch up with Matt and his daughters.

[Samantha Wanderer]

This is a little bit of everything. They have a cafe where they take flowers and they crush them up and pretend it's chicken noodle soup.

[Denise Martinez]

2020 gets a glimpse of life with their father after losing their mother.

[Samantha Wanderer]

Each have their own mine, hers, you know, and they separate pants from shirts. I pick mine and then he picks hers. But I have to okay hers. Yes.

[Denise Martinez]

Why?

[Samantha Wanderer]

Because she likes spaghetti straps.

[Debra Roberts]

So he let our cameras in, and it was quite remarkable to be able to see that firsthand with our cameras.

[Denise Martinez]

Tell us a little bit about him, because we talked about in the piece how he was polite and soft spoken. The community was sort of rallying behind to you, did he just seem like a harmless guy?

[Debra Roberts]

He definitely seemed like a, you know, like a good dad. He seems somebody who care. Um, we actually get to go along with them when they go out to a restaurant. He happens to encounter some of his students. He was a substitute teacher. And they say hello. They talk about what a nice guy he was. He really care about us. So you could really see how he probably had everybody convinced because he actually seemed to be like a nice to everybody who know him.

[Denise Martinez]

But when you're looking through Samantha, all these tapes and you're seeing things sort of evolve over time. Tell me a little bit about that. You've got to digitize this video. You're working with attorneys. People don't really know how much work goes in. They see what we put on the air. They don't know what's going on behind the scenes for us to be able to bring it. And this story was very largely dependent on all this video.

[Matt Baker]

Right. It's really interesting. It just shows the Importance of archiving material properly, which, thank goodness, the production team who was on the story before me really archived this story well. So all of those old tapes we were able to pull back out just different kinds of media, things I hadn't seen before as a gen zer. I hadn't seen some of this media.

[Denise Martinez]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Matt Baker]

Beta tapes takes you back.

[Denise Martinez]

Dvc.

[Matt Baker]

And that was in the court, right. I was able to. I was allowed access to go into the court and go through the material myself, which was something that was also new for me. So I was going through piles of boxes, piles of papers, trying to find things we hadn't found before. And in doing that, we found some emails that we hadn't shown in our past coverage. So we found email that Carrie had sent back and forth with Matt in which you're able to see in the show.

[Denise Martinez]

And that's what's interesting about this program because we get a chance now on this podcast to give people a taste of some things that we didn't put in our show, in our program. So here's some material from the archive from a 2007 interview with Matt Baker before his trial and before he was convicted, which didn't make it into our program. Take a listen.

[Samantha Wanderer]

Everybody knows everybody. Some people don't like that, but I do like that you walk in a store and most people know you by your first name or know your family, and they trust me. They believe me that I'm from here. This is my hometown. They've known me for well over 30 years. They watched me grow up in Sunday school, they watched me through school. They watched me in all the activities around town. They know I'm not capable of this.

[Denise Martinez]

And his voice, I mean, you know, of course you guys got to see more of him, but to just even hear his voice, it just sounds so small town, Southern guy, innocent. Denise, when you're combing through the archives, give people a sense of how we decide, like what to present and how we're gonna reveal his personality. You know, as Samantha was just saying, just there was all kinds of stuff that even she didn't even know we had. And we uncovered like emails and things. Give us a sense of what that's all about.

[Debra Roberts]

Yeah, it's interesting because in our past coverage we had only segments, you know, now we put together this two hour documentaries so we really have the time to present the viewers, like a real time how the story evolved over time. So, you know, we are showing him the way he did. He wanted to present himself as somebody innocent, as Somebody who didn't do anything. And then the viewers can actually see that. They can also see, you know, once allegations come forward, you know, he becomes a little more defensive.

[Matt Baker]

So.

[Debra Roberts]

So I think it's by going through those tapes that we are able to kind of pick and choose so that the viewer can kind of get to experience the same way that the story unfolded back in the day.

[Denise Martinez]

Yeah. And we were talking about how, you know, Obviously with our 47 year history, I mean, we have all kinds of tapes that sometimes we're able to find. Every now and again there's a problem. But we wanna make it clear that, you know, you're capturing developments along the way and also both sides, right? Yeah.

[Debra Roberts]

I mean, you know, we obviously interviewed him. He actually, unlike other people, he went on this kind of press tour. He was happy to, to anybody who wanted to talk to him. And actually that worked against him because he changed his story every time he gave a new interview. Actually he told us a different story in our show and that got to be played in court.

[Denise Martinez]

Talk about Carrie's family too, because they played a big part in this and they called themselves Charlie's Angels. What was that all about?

[Debra Roberts]

Well, you know, Carrie's death was ruled a suicide, but the family, her family did not believe it. So they took it upon themselves to do their own investigation. You know, they wanted to dig deeper and kind of find the evidence and find, you know, an ally in an attorney. Somebody that can take the case and really push it to the authorities so they can really look into the case. So they themselves became the investigators in some way. And it was because of their persistence and determination that this case actually was able to get solved and get justice.

[Denise Martinez]

For Kerry, which we see a lot. You and I have covered stories before where people have just stayed on it and stayed on it and that's what actually brought cases to court. What did you make of the family and how have they managed to sort of hold up and what was their demeanor like as they went through this whole process?

[Debra Roberts]

I mean, I think it was Carrie's aunt initially that believed she hadn't killed herself. The mom had a hard time believing that her son in law, this pastor, could have done that. So I think it was, it took convincing the mom first. But I think once they saw the evidence of like phone calls to another woman and him, you know, moving on with his life, like weeks after his wife murdered, I think they quickly realized that there was something more there and that they needed to take action.

[Denise Martinez]

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's always so Fascinating when there's that turning point for people in these cases. All right, well, we're going to take a break, and when we come back, what our 2020 team put together to challenge Matt's claims and just how improbable they really were.

[Brad Milkey]

Still getting around to that fix on your car. You got this on ebay, you'll find millions of parts guaranteed to fit. Doesn't matter if it's a major engine repair or your first time swapping your windshield wipers. Ebay has that part you need ready to click perfectly into place for changes big and small, loud or quiet. Find all the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time. But you already know that Ebay things people love. Eligible items only exclusions apply.

[Debra Roberts]

Your data is like gold to hackers. They're selling your passwords, bank details and private messages. McAfee helps stop them. Secure VPN keeps your online activity private. AI powered text scam detector spots phishing attempts instantly. And with award winning antivirus, you get top tier hacker protection. Plus, you'll get up to $2 million in identity theft coverage, all for just $39.99 for your first year. Visit McAfee.com, cancel anytime terms apply.

[Denise Martinez]

We are back. All right, so much of this program featured archival tape, but you guys also got new interviews to round out the p of this case. And one moment that just stood out to me was a test we did with Texas Ranger Matt Cawthon, another Matt. And this was pretty creative, Denise. I mean, we do a lot of creative things here in the field. But tell us about this idea about the dummy.

[Debra Roberts]

I mean, I wish I could take all the credit, but to be honest, it was the prosecutors. The prosecutors had wanted to put Matt to the test. They had actually built a replica of the bedroom with a dummy roughly the size that Carrie was at the time of her death. In the courtroom. If he were to testify, they were going to put him to the test so the jury could see could he have done everything he said he did.

[Denise Martinez]

And tell us what that was that they were trying to unfold.

[Debra Roberts]

So basically, you know, we have a 911 call where you hear him allegedly, you know, he later tells that he dressed his wife, that he was naked. He dressed her, he moved her to the floor, turned her around, and then began cpr.

[Denise Martinez]

Trying to save her life.

[Debra Roberts]

Trying to save her life. And all of this in about two minutes. The prosecutors felt that this could not have been done in that time frame. Plus, he did not sound that winded at all in the 911 call. So they wanted him to show that, unfortunately, I think the lawyer had learned about that. They decided not to testify. So he couldn't. He didn't do it. So we decided, like, how about we kind of try it ourselves? So we decided to kind of do the same thing that we're trying to do. And then we wanted to get a dummy and figure out if the Texas Ranger could have done what Matt Baker said he did.

[Denise Martinez]

And that was really fascinating. So, Samantha, talk about that, because you were in charge of this very heavy replica, this dummy, which was just under £200, right?

[Matt Baker]

Right. It was just under £200. It was roughly the weight of Carrie at the time of her death. So trying to find a dummy that was around that same weight that we could then transport to the scene, which we ended up doing it in a hotel room, was a little challenging.

[Denise Martinez]

So I went to calling that. Right.

[Debra Roberts]

Well.

[Matt Baker]

Right. And thank God I had a firefighter help me get it into my car from the local fire department. Otherwise, I don't think I could have lifted it. And I can lift 200 pounds if it's on a barbell, but I can't lift. When you see it in dead weight form, it's a lot heavier.

[Denise Martinez]

So he helped you lift this like it was nothing. And the whole goal was for John Quinones, our reporter, to sit there and observe and tell me what that was all about. So they're gonna try to hurriedly see if they can beat the clock in terms of, like, dressing this dummy and showing us how prosecutors were able to reveal in the trial that it didn't seem plausible.

[Matt Baker]

Right. So John was supervising and timed Matt Cawthon as he went through and attempted to dress the dummy. And I saw him as he was trying to do this in his full suit, get winded as he was trying to put it on. And he's in pretty good shape for his. And being able to do it in two minutes and pull the dummy onto the floor would have been nearly impossible, it seemed.

[Denise Martinez]

Yeah. And that was critical. Denise, too. I mean, and for us. Talk to us a little bit about why we choose to do these things, because I think one of the things our listeners find intriguing is how we got to that point and why we thought that was important. So why did we think that would make such a difference in our story?

[Debra Roberts]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's. I think it's one thing to kind of say it or say, like, oh, two minutes, you know, what can you do in two minutes? But I think to put it to the test in the sense that, you know, prosecutors argue that it couldn't have been done. And so we wanted to see, like, could it be done? So we want. I think, visually, it's important for the viewer to kind of see what it takes. And I think, like, even experts say, like, it's not the same thing, like, moving a dead body like that, like, then moving an actual, you know, living person. It's just that it doesn't take the amount of effort. And I think, like, once you see it, you kind of can understand what the prosecutors were trying to show to expose, you know, the lies that Matt Baker said on his 911 call.

[Denise Martinez]

Yeah, I actually had a story like that when I was in the courtroom with a prosecutor who had a stopwatch and was showing me about, you know, how this person had fired a gun. And it is really compelling to see that and have them bring that to us. Again, let's talk about one of the key witnesses in this case, Vanessa Bowles. She was critical.

[Debra Roberts]

I mean, she was the other woman. Matt Baker had an affair. She had been approached by law enforcement, by investigators, and she was not forthcoming, you know, multiple times. But in the end, you know, she did the right thing. She was immunity for her testimony, and it was her testimony about the plot, about how he was plotting to kill Kerry, that, in the end, really is what got him convicted.

[Denise Martinez]

And how does she come across to the jury? Because you think about she's the other woman. Right. You would think that she would have little credibility with them because of what had happened.

[Debra Roberts]

I mean, I think we spoke to the jury, four person. I think they struggled because she had said different stories, she wasn't forthcoming. But I think in the end, they realized that she was basically exposing herself, that she had nothing to gain at that point. And I think that was really kind of like a turning point for them. And I think they also realized that what she said in court, that here he was a preacher, you know, who will believe her? You know, who will believe her? So I think that really kind of got to the jury.

[Denise Martinez]

But they were conflicted at first about how to sort of interpret her testimony.

[Debra Roberts]

Yeah. And the defense he had, you know, they were asking, you know, why should we believe you when, you know, you had said so many inconsistent stories in the past?

[Denise Martinez]

But at the end of the day, they did believe her, and her testimony was credible.

[Debra Roberts]

Yeah. I mean, that's. The testimony was key to get him convicted.

[Denise Martinez]

Right. All right, we're going to take one more break. And after that, the team that pursued justice for Carrie Baker against all odds.

[John Quinones]

Imagine what's possible when learning doesn't get in the way of life at Capella University. Our game changing flexpath learning format lets you set your own deadline so you can learn at a time and pace that works for you. It's an education you can tailor to your schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to pursue your professional goals. Instead, enjoy learning your way and earn your degree without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.

[Debra Roberts]

Edu Meghan Trainor Laundry retrainer Meghan Trainor.

[Matt Baker]

You're tossing out my gunky laundry detergent bottle.

[Debra Roberts]

It's got that booty, that juicy boom boom that gonna hide alive.

[Matt Baker]

Arm and hammer power sheets toss like this.

[Denise Martinez]

Cause I toss like this. I wash like this.

[Debra Roberts]

It's a no mess. Laundry blitz. Arm and hammer power sheets. More power to you.

[Denise Martinez]

We are back with Samantha and Denise, who just really dug into the story and brought it to air for us at 2020 along with John Quin. And let's talk about some of the interviews that you got for the show because a lot of them centered around law enforcement. And I have covered a lot of stories too, where, you know, we know that they're cops and we think of them as sort of tough cops, but oftentimes, you know, these are people who are parents who are affected by what they're doing. So let's talk about Texas Ranger Matt Cawthon and investigator Abdin Rodriguez. I was struck by how much emotion Matt seemed to show at the end of our program. And, and maybe Samantha, you can jump in on this, talk about what that perspective was like working on this case with him and seeing how it really affected him.

[Matt Baker]

Right. Well, I like to say he's like the softest tough guy. He's a Texas Ranger. He walked in snakeskin boots, showed us his, the hat, his hat, everything, right? And he walked in with purpose. He really knows what he's doing. He's been working for a long time in law enforcement, but he is really down to earth and cared deeply about the people that he was trying to help. He cared deeply about Kerry and he really was moved by the love of her mother, Linda, that she had to push for justice throughout this entire case.

[Debra Roberts]

We also spoke to Abdon Rodriguez. He was the investigator from the district attorney's office. He's known as the human lie detector. Apparently he knew right away that Vanessa Bowles was not being truthful and he felt that she was the key to solving this case. He was able to get her to testify in front of a grand jury, and that was the turn for this.

[Denise Martinez]

Case that changed everything.

[Debra Roberts]

Yes.

[Denise Martinez]

Denise, what about Matt and Carrie's daughters? Because at the core of this case, there are children who have lost their mother and now lost their father, essentially because he's away in prison. Talk to us a little bit about Carrie's daughters.

[Debra Roberts]

Yeah. I mean, at the time of the trial, they obviously believed their dad. They believed that their mom had died of an accidental overdose. So it really was a long journey for them. They eventually, Carrie's parents gained custody of the daughters, and we've known that it was a long journey for them to. What really happened to their mother.

[Denise Martinez]

Yeah, yeah. Something really, really heartbreaking when you are covering these stories, Denise. And I think sometimes our viewers, and in this case, our listeners, are wondering how it affects you. I mean, your mom, we talked about this earlier, and these girls, I mean, what was that like for you as a mom and a producer, to hear their story?

[Debra Roberts]

I mean, it was really hard. I mean, because their daughters were roughly the same age as my two older daughters are now. So thinking about how, you know, they've lost their mom, and obviously, you know, if the mom is gone, they will turn to their dad. You know, their dad is the other figure that is there to protect them, to care for them. And I saw that on the video. And then to know that then he's the one that, you know, killed their mom, and now he's gone. It must have been so difficult for them to kind of go through that process and then kind of lose both of those people that are supposed to care the most about them.

[Denise Martinez]

Yeah, yeah. And we take that with us, too. So we're thinking about these stories long after they're done. Samantha, this was an interesting one for you. A lot of work, a lot of digging, carrying around this dummy. You've worked on a lot of stories here at 20:20 is this one that kind of will stick with you for a while.

[Matt Baker]

Yeah. I think what always does it for me, I mean, obviously going through the archive, there's little nuggets you can find that are new and interesting. But I think what will always stick with me is the home videos and seeing Carrie interact with her daughters while she was alive, and then seeing. Thinking about how they're having to go through life without her now. I mean, that was hard to see.

[Denise Martinez]

Yeah, yeah. Well, at the end of the day, there are victims out there. When we cover these stories and we can't forget about them. Samantha Denise, this was a lot of fun. We'll have to do more of this.

[Debra Roberts]

Yes, thank you, Deborah.

[Denise Martinez]

Of course. Thanks for doing this. Denise Martinez Raimundo is a producer for 2020 and Samantha Wanderer is an associate producer. Okay, that does it for us for 2020, the After Show. This time, we hope you're going to tune in on Friday nights at 9 for all new episodes of 2020, of course, on ABC. This episode was produced by Cameron Shirtavian, Sasha Aslanian and Joseph Diaz, Brian Mazersky and Alex Barenfeld of 2020. We also had help this week from Amira Williams and Meg Fierro. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020, and we should add that Josh Cohen is the director of podcasting at ABC Audio and Laura Mayer, executive producer.

[Brad Milkey]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. It's Brad Milkey, host of ABC's Daily News podcast. Start here. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.