The After Show: Family Lies?

Summary

20/20 After Show: Family Lies?
ABC News
Release Date: April 7, 2025

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Introduction

In the gripping episode titled "Family Lies?" from ABC News' renowned 20/20 After Show, host Debra Roberts delves deep into a complex true crime saga that has captivated listeners worldwide. The episode explores the mysterious circumstances surrounding Nathan Carman, a young man who survived a harrowing ordeal at sea only to be implicated in the suspicious deaths of his mother and grandfather. Through exclusive interviews, investigative insights, and firsthand accounts, the show unpacks whether Nathan is a tragic victim or a calculated orchestrator of his family's demise.

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The Nathan Carman Story

Background and Survival Tale

The episode opens with the astonishing survival story of Nathan Carman. In 2016, Nathan was found adrift on a life raft in the Atlantic Ocean after his fishing boat, Chickenpox, sank during a deep-sea fishing trip. Initially hailed as a tale of miraculous survival, the narrative took a darker turn when investigators uncovered unsettling connections to his family's past.

Key Quote:

"He calls for his mother throughout the rest of the day. Never once saw her, never heard from her." [00:02:06] – Narrator

Suspicious Deaths

Further investigation revealed that Nathan was the last person to see his grandfather, John Chakalos, a millionaire real estate developer, alive. Chakalos was murdered three years prior in what was deemed an execution-style shooting in his own bed. The convergence of these events led detectives to question the legitimacy of the boat sinking, casting Nathan in a suspicious light despite his claims of innocence.

Key Quote:

"Could Nathan have orchestrated the death of two family members to get a hold of his inheritance?" – Debra Roberts [00:04:00]

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Investigative Insights with Producer Jonathan Balthazar

Debra Roberts engages in an in-depth conversation with Jonathan Balthazar, a producer for 20/20, who has been integral in covering Nathan's story from its inception.

Producer's Perspective:
Balthazar explains how the story evolved from a simple survival narrative into a multifaceted family mystery.

"At first, it appeared that this was just a heroic rescue tale... But then the layers started to emerge." [00:04:05]

Understanding Nathan's Behavior:
Nathan's demeanor during police interviews added to the suspicion. As someone on the autism spectrum, his reactions were atypical, leading some to question his credibility.

"He doesn't react to questions... which created a lot of extra suspicion on him." [00:05:49]

Recreating the Scene:
To provide viewers with a tangible understanding of Nathan's ordeal, the production team embarked on a meticulous recreation of the sinking incident. They secured a boat similar to Chickenpox and even ventured onto a replica life raft to simulate Nathan's experience.

"I got on a life raft... I was ready to get out. It was hot, it was wet... you still start to get a little queasy." [00:13:21]

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Family Dynamics and Motives

The Chakalos Family:
The Chakalos family, depicted as tight-knit yet fraught with internal conflicts, becomes the central focus. John Chakalos, the patriarch, was a wealthy businessman with significant influence, which bred both admiration and resentment within the family.

Key Quote:

"There was constantly this sort of bickering and fighting for love and attention." [00:19:07] – Jonathan Balthazar

Relationship Strains:
Nathan's relationship with his mother, Linda, was tumultuous, marked by frequent disagreements and conflicting interests. These strained relationships raised questions about possible motives behind the alleged murders.

Legal Battles:
Nathan faced legal challenges, including a lawsuit known as the Slayer Petition, which prevents individuals from profiting from acts that lead to another's death. Despite these charges, Nathan maintained his innocence until his untimely death by suicide while awaiting trial.

Key Quote:

"He represented himself pretty wild himself in this lawsuit." [00:16:47] – Jonathan Balthazar

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Emotional Toll and Unresolved Mysteries

The episode doesn't shy away from the profound emotional distress experienced by the Chakalos family. Charlene Gallagher, Nathan's aunt, shares her sorrow over Nathan's suicide, highlighting the unhealed wounds and lingering pain within the family.

Personal Accounts:

"I just cried because once again I'm picturing this little child... It was just sad because the whole situation was just so unnecessary." [00:20:45] – Charlene Gallagher

Unresolved Cases:
While Nathan's charges were dismissed posthumously, the murder of John Chakalos remains an open investigation, leaving the family without the closure they desperately seek.

Key Quote:

"John Chakalos case is still active. So no one's had any closure on that." [00:22:07] – Jonathan Balthazar

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Behind the Scenes: Producing the Story

Balthazar provides an insider's look into the challenges of bringing such a complex story to the audience. From securing interviews to recreating pivotal scenes, the production team's dedication is evident.

Exclusive Interviews:
The team secured rare footage of Nathan's police interviews, allowing viewers to witness his firsthand reactions under intense scrutiny. These clips empower the audience to form their own judgments about his credibility.

On-Location Filming:
Venturing to significant locations, including the family cemetery, added depth to the narrative. Balthazar recounts an intimate moment where a family member invited him to document a personal tribute, underscoring the human element amidst the tragedy.

"It was a powerful moment for me." [00:23:39] – Jonathan Balthazar

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Conclusion

"The After Show: Family Lies?" masterfully intertwines survival, mystery, and familial discord to present a compelling true crime story. Through meticulous investigation and heartfelt interviews, ABC News' 20/20 offers listeners a nuanced exploration of whether Nathan Carman is a victim of fate or a perpetrator of calculated deceit. The episode leaves audiences pondering the intricate dynamics of family loyalty, inheritance motives, and the quest for truth amidst layers of deception.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Debra Roberts:

  "Could Nathan have orchestrated the death of two family members to get a hold of his inheritance?" [00:04:00]

• Jonathan Balthazar:

  "At first, it appeared that this was just a heroic rescue tale... But then the layers started to emerge." [00:04:05]
  "He doesn't react to questions... which created a lot of extra suspicion on him." [00:05:49]

• Charlene Gallagher:

  "I just cried because once again I'm picturing this little child... It was just sad because the whole situation was just so unnecessary." [00:20:45]

• Jonathan Balthazar:

  "John Chakalos case is still active. So no one's had any closure on that." [00:22:07]

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Final Thoughts

This episode of 20/20 After Show exemplifies the show's commitment to uncovering the truth behind high-profile mysteries. By presenting multiple perspectives and unearthing hidden facets of the Carman family's story, 20/20 ensures that listeners are not only informed but also emotionally connected to the unfolding drama.

For those intrigued by complex true crime narratives, "Family Lies?" offers a comprehensive and immersive experience, blending investigative rigor with empathetic storytelling.

Transcript

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Debra Roberts]

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[Unknown]

Taxes and fees extra.

[Debra Roberts]

See full [e-mail] hi there, everybody, it's Debra Roberts. Welcome to 20 20, the After Show. Today we're going to talk about family lies, our most recent episode, one which I reported on and one which has just captivated so many people. When Nathan Carman was discovered adrift on a life raft in The Atlantic in 2016, the world saw a young man who narrowly escaped death. It was an amazing, harrowing story of survival. His mom Linda was nowhere to be found, lost at sea with his boat called the Chickenpox, which sank during a deep sea fishing trip. That's what he told everyone. But what started as a story of survival soon turns into something much darker. As investigators look a little deeper into the accident, they discover that Nathan was also the last person to see his grandfather alive. Millionaire real estate developer John Chocolos. The 87 year old had been shot execution style in his own bed just three years earlier. And soon detectives began thinking that the boat sinking wasn't an accident, casting further suspicion on the surviving son who maintained his innocence in both cases. So the question becomes, could Nathan have orchestrated the death of two family members to get a hold of his inheritance? Is he a victim of tragic circumstances or a cold hearted killer? Here's a clip from our program.

[Unknown]

He calls for his mother throughout the rest of the day. Never once saw her, never heard from her. And he said upon nightfall, you know, he gave up trying to search for her and he went to sleep and then drifted through the Atlantic Ocean until he was located. So let's get back to your mother. You talk to her, you know, all the time. You know, you go out fishing twice a week. How would you describe your relationship with her? Is it good?

[Jonathan Balthazar]

I don't see the relevance to this particular incident here. I concur.

[Debra Roberts]

The interview's over. Thank you, though.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

I think I'm tired.

[Debra Roberts]

Thank you.

[Unknown]

After the interview is over, from our perspective, we're like, okay, this isn't just a missing persons investigation. We may be dealing with maybe a homicide.

[Debra Roberts]

And that's what made the story so intriguing for us. My guest today is 2020 producer Jonathan Balthazar. Jonathan, I've been saying your name wrong.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Balthazar.

[Debra Roberts]

Balthazar. All these years, I've been saying Balthazar.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

That's okay.

[Debra Roberts]

Balthazar.

[Charlene Gallagher]

Than.

[Debra Roberts]

Deborah, good to see you.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Good to see you. Thanks for having me.

[Debra Roberts]

Good to have you here. Well, I just call you Jonathan anyway, so.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Jb. They call me Jonathan.

[Debra Roberts]

Jb. Exactly. Well, it's great to have you here because you and I have worked on a lot of stories together. Our reporting has taken us to a.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Lot of crazy places and adventures.

[Debra Roberts]

Canadian Far North, Attica Prison, which. I forgot about that.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Yeah, that was the Upper west side.

[Debra Roberts]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

The bathtub where you interviewed Rod Covlin.

[Debra Roberts]

Yeah. And now out at sea. You got me on a boat.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Got you on a boat. We had a great day at sea.

[Debra Roberts]

Actually, the weather turned out to be pretty good for this one. So you and I have been out on a lot of different shoots. And I always ask you, when these stories are brought to me, what was it about it that intrigued you?

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Well, you know, 2020 has been on this story from the very beginning. And at first it appeared that this was just a heroic rescue tale.

[Debra Roberts]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

I mean, something out of the movies. This kid gets rescued at sea after a week.

[Debra Roberts]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Bobbing around in a raft from a Chinese cargo freighter. Needle in a haystack. It was an incredible rescue story. The media hopped on that. We were. We were chasing that story. But then the layers started to emerge. And as people started looking into the case, it turns out that Nathan was the last person to see both his mother and his grandfather alive. And his grandfather, turned out, had been murdered three years prior.

[Debra Roberts]

And nobody had ever been charged in that case.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

No one had been charged. It was still an active investigation. It still is an active investigation, actually. You know, as we delved deeper and deeper, we found it really turned into this family saga just filled with so many interesting characters. John Chakalos, Nathan's grandfather, was this patriarch, this very wealthy businessman. He had all kinds of contacts, all kinds of reasons that people might have a beef with him. And many people in his family had. It was a very complicated family dynamic.

[Debra Roberts]

To say the least. Yes, he was very generous with his money, but he used the money. He kind of ruled a little bit with an iron fist. So he was a guy who was obviously beloved in his family. He had worked very hard, but he could also be very tough.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

He was tough, but he. Nathan and him had a very special relationship. Nathan was the firstborn grandson and he was sort of the golden child for his grandfather. He was taking him to business meetings. He was paying for his apartment. His boat really just took care of him. And then, you know, Nathan emerges as really the heart of the story and a fascinating character. He also, we learn he was on the autism spectrum. And that just makes watching him all the more fascinating.

[Debra Roberts]

Yeah, because you're not sure. Is he just devoid of emotion or is that just part of his disability?

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Everyone can watch and determine for themselves. Is he just nervous? Is he lying? Is this just the way he behaves? He says in interview with us, I don't understand people. So he has. He doesn't react to questions from police or from interviewers the way many people think he should. So that created a lot of extra suspicion on him.

[Debra Roberts]

Yeah. And that's what made you such a great producer on the story, just because you had been on it from the beginning. Then, of course, fast forward three years later, and then he's out on this boat and this whole, you know, bizarre, you know, rescue at sea. The boat has supposedly sank. His mother is nowhere to be found. He doesn't know what happened, but thinks, assumes that maybe she fell overboard. So we decide, you know, of course, to pick up the story there, because that's where so many people remember the story and to tell it, you know, let's go out on a boat to talk about this. Right. And here it is. Here it is, like at the end of winter, you are trying to convince me to go out on a boat. First of all, out in the Atlantic.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

You were gay in from the very beginning.

[Debra Roberts]

I was. I was. But of course, I needed to feel like it was safe. Tell us a little bit about how you go about doing something like that. Because one of the challenges was also this time of year, getting a boat, finding a boat that was similar to his to go out. Tell us about how.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Yeah, this is a big production challenge, you know, at 2020, we try and bring the viewer into the crime scene, the scene where it happens. We try and get crime scene photos. We try and go into the actual space. But in this case, of course, we couldn't do that because the boat had sunk.

[Debra Roberts]

Right.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

So.

[Debra Roberts]

And we don't really, really know where it happened. That's part of the intrigue of the story.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

That's right. That's part of one of the questions. So. But, you know, we want to show the viewer as. And bring them in and make them understand where this happened. So we search for a boat and a captain as close to Nathan's boat, which is called the chickenpox 31 foot fishing boat. And we tried to find as best example of that as we could. And our whole team was calling every marina, every dock, every captain from Connecticut to Rhode island trying to find a boat. And you know, of course we were shooting this just the past few months in February, March. A lot of boats are on dry dog. Yes, of course it was very difficult to find. But credit to our whole production team, we were able to find a boat that was almost exactly mirrored Nathan's. It was a little bit longer, but it had the same specifications. Captain Dave brought us out and you know, and then of course I was worried about the weather every single day. Cause it was still March in New.

[Debra Roberts]

England and I didn't want to be throwing up. Right.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

We all wanted to be comfortable. But then we woke up and it was a bright sunny day. And it was actually, it was a beautiful day at sea.

[Debra Roberts]

It was beautiful. And of course the crew knew so much about this story. Just having been up there. This is an area that you know well too. Because you grew up or spent time up in that area.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Well, yes, I grew up. I mean, one of my favorite parts of being a producer at 2020 is traveling around the country and the world and visiting places I might not normally get to visit. But in this case, I grew up outside Boston in Lexington, Massachusetts. And the whole story took place sort of in my own backyard. I spent summers working in Provincetown on the Cape and spent lots of time in the Berkshires. In this case, you know, traverses almost all of New England. There were things that happened in almost every state. Connecticut, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Vermont. So we, you know, it was really nice to be able to get to spend time back in New England. In fact, one of our best crew guys that we use, we did a big road trip just shooting B roll locations of every spot. And on the way we were going back to Boston. I was mapping it out and I was going right by my parents house.

[Debra Roberts]

Oh, cool.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

And I texted my mom and said, do you think, do you think my cameraman and I can come by for din? And she said yep.

[Debra Roberts]

And you did.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

And yep. And my mom made us dinner and we got to spend have a nice home cooked meal for dinner.

[Debra Roberts]

That's cool.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

For dinner.

[Debra Roberts]

That's very cool. That doesn't happen very often. Well, more to talk about on this, but we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, more on this story and our trip out to sea with Jonathan.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Debra Roberts]

Welcome Back to the 2020 After Show. Jonathan is here with me. Well, one of the particular challenges, of course, of this story is that, you know, it did happen out there in the ocean. And so we're on this boat and, you know, trying to figure out what happened at sea. You bring the maritime lawyer who was involved in this case out to sea to talk to us a little bit about it. And one of the things I found fascinating is hearing him talk about the very specific sort of the science of when they began to feel like Nathan's story sort of didn't add up about where he said the boat may have gone down, where he was rescued. I mean, that was pretty intriguing, right? Yeah.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

I mean, there were lots of odd aspects of Nathan's story about how the boat sank that investigators jumped on immediately. And so that's one of the reasons we went on the boat too, is to kind of get a visual sense and really understand why his story may or may not have made sense. I mean, one of the things he said was that the boat was taking on water and he told his mother, go take in the fishing reels. And she said, okay. And that was the last thing he ever heard from her. And then you're on this boat and you realize it's quite small and how.

[Debra Roberts]

Could you not be able to talk to her, you know.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Correct.

[Debra Roberts]

In a very panic kind of stricken sort of way.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Yeah. Another thing is that he went, he said he didn't think the boat was sinking yet he went in three times to get survival gear and bring it out. He passed by this mayday radio beacon three times without calling for help, saying he didn't think. He just said he didn't think the boat was sinking. And so you talked to Dave Farrell and you went in the wheelhouse and you could see it's right there. It would take three seconds because I.

[Debra Roberts]

Always thought maybe it would be something that was more complicated. And he's like, no, you just press this one little button and that's it.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

And the other thing was just the general size of the boat and that he said he'd never saw his mother again. And I mean, this is a small boat the size of a small living room.

[Debra Roberts]

You would see her going down, you.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Would think, yeah, I just did that.

[Debra Roberts]

Bit on the boat in addition to interviewing folks. But you actually got in a life raft. Cause he said he survived little more than a week with supplies out on a life raft. You actually got into one.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

I got on a life raft like we were talking about earlier, you know, we wanted to show what his, his lifeboat looked like. And so we got an almost exact replica of the, the lifeboat that, that Nathan was in. And we had to get on the lifeboat life raft to, to show what it looked like. And I got in there and let me tell you, I was in there for maybe 20 minutes and I was done. It was hot, it was wet, it was swelled, comfortable. You know, it. The swells weren't even that bad, but yes, you still start to get a little queasy. And Nathan reported there were 13 foot waves at some point. So that was another area that investigators looked to about why this story might have seemed suspicious. When he was rescued a week later, Nathan seemed in pretty good health. He did not have extensive sun exposure. He did not have water exposure from sitting and standing water.

[Debra Roberts]

He didn't seem weak when he was trying to climb out of there.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

He seemed relatively healthy. And you know, there are survival experts who were deposed who said there was no way this would happen. FBI, Coast Guard investigators, they all did not believe his story. And just from my own experience being on that life raft for 20 minutes, I was ready to get out. I like adventure. I like doing. This is what I live for, kind of doing these interesting things. And that was enough fun. So it really gave me a very, you know, intimate insight into what his experience might have been like.

[Debra Roberts]

Kind of nerve wracking too. I'm glad you didn't ask me to do that one. Another intriguing part of this story is that we got a chance to include some sort of first time seeing broadcast interviews with law enforcement. Right. Nathan Is recorded while he's talking to police. Tell folks how you managed to do that kind of thing, because that is what makes our stories, I think, interesting and special. To see something that you haven't seen before.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Well, yes, getting police interviews or, you know, depositions, but especially police. Police interviews are really great way to take the viewer into the story. You get to see this person, whoever's being interviewed, reacting on the spot in sort of high pressure situations. And the viewer can just decide what they think of it on the spot. In this case, Nathan is interviewed extensively by the Windsor police in relation to the murder of his grandfather, John Sokolos. And the night John Sokolos was murdered, Nathan was meeting his mother for a different fishing trip. And he was an hour late meeting his mother in.

[Debra Roberts]

Late at night. He was on the. In the middle of the night.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Yeah, he was supposed to meet her at 3. He didn't get there until 4. And he claims he got lost. And he got lost on roads that he had been driving for years. So you get to hear investigators question him about this and see his reaction. And I would say he seems rather nervous now. He's a teenage kid getting questions by police. And again, we talked about his.

[Debra Roberts]

He's on the autism spectrum.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

His autism spectrum. So viewers can watch it and decide, does this seem credible? There's another really fascinating piece of video in a deposition in a subsequent lawsuit that his family, the Slayer lawsuit that this family brings against him. And he ends up taking the fifth 81 times, which is, of course, his legal right.

[Debra Roberts]

But it's interesting that he even could know to do that and to.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Actually, he was a very smart guy. He represented himself pretty wild himself in this lawsuit. He represented himself, but Yeah, I mean, 81 times, taking the fifth meaning, you know, he didn't want to answer to avoid incriminating himself. It just gives additional context and it lets you into the story and understand what was happening.

[Debra Roberts]

Let the viewer see. And you mentioned the Slayer lawsuit, and that is basically a Slayer petition, means you can't profit from or you can't collect money after somebody has died.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Yeah, it's a lawsuit saying you can't inherit money from someone who you had a part in killing, basically. So Nathan's aunts bring this against him. You know, the family dynamics of this are.

[Debra Roberts]

They're quite interesting. I want to talk about that. But we're going to take a break first, though. And when we come back, we're going to unpack this tangled web of family, personal history and drama at the heart of this Story. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money. With guardrails in place. Try greenlight risk free [e-mail] Spotify. We're back with the 2020 After Show. And Jonathan, the producer of the piece that we worked on together is here. This story isn't just about a murder investigation. It's about a very. Not just fractured, I guess, dysfunctional family. There are a lot of dynamics at work here. I thought that was so intriguing. You and I started off by looking at the family tree. John chakalos, this patriarch, this wealthy patriarch of who had been murdered, had four daughters. One of them was Nathan's mom. That was just really interesting to find out how the money and how it affected the family and how there were fights within the family. And Nathan's mom, Linda, butted heads with her father a lot over life. And the way she was raising her.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Son, she turned in. You know, this family actually reminded me of the succession family a little bit from the HBO show. John Choclos, worth about $40 million, maybe more. He was a real estate developer, Owned and operated nursing homes. And he spent a lot of money on his family. And it seemed like there was constantly this sort of bickering and fighting for love and attention and. Yeah, especially between Linda and John. They would fight over Nathan. As I said, Jon was sort of grooming Nathan to possibly become a part of his business. And he just doted on him as the first grandson. It actually came to blows at some point. The police were called.

[Debra Roberts]

Yeah, physical fight.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Physical fight. The police were called. So just, you know, a very dynamic, tumultuous family. And then they would come back together. And John chakalos, he was telling his other. His nephew that he wanted Nathan to repair things with his mother. Nathan and his mother would have a. Would have a tumultuous relationship as well. He was living in a trailer on her property and then eventually moved out. And these fishing trips that they did were one of the real ways they bonded. One of the only ways they could connect was that.

[Debra Roberts]

And that she wanted to try to repair the relationship.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Exactly. I think they both did. But it was difficult.

[Debra Roberts]

Yeah, a very tight knit. We were told by them. A Tight knit Greek family too. One of the family members we actually got to meet was Charlene Gallagher, who was a younger sister to Linda. Let's hear an extension extended clip of that interview.

[Charlene Gallagher]

I got a call in the morning from our attorney. He was very solemn and he had told me very respectfully that Nathan was gone and he hung himself. And I just cried. I cried because once again I'm picturing this little child. It wasn't even a relief that we didn't have to go through the trial or anything like that. It was just sad because the whole, whole situation, it was just so unnecessary. Everything came back. His childhood, you know, the tough life he had Linda, the tough life Linda had with him. And you know, just the. The battles between, you know, my dad and Linda and Nathan and you know, was all for not. No one came out with the outcome that anyone, you know, wanted. I was far more sad than I was relieved. And it's still not over.

[Debra Roberts]

You can hear the pain in her voice. We should say that Nathan was awaiting trial when he wound up taking his own life. The clip kind of really brings home, I think, how devastating these events were for this family. I mean, to have three family members, three different generations.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

The grandfather, the mother and Nathan all died. And you know, Charlene says it's not over and it really isn't for this family. I think there's a lot of unhealed wounds. Nathan's charges were dismissed and the John Chakalos case is still active. So no one's had any closure on that. Also, John Chaklos money is still being. Working its way through probate court. So I think it's. It's been difficult for this family to find closure. Move on. This Chuck Lapena, who you interviewed, Deborah.

[Debra Roberts]

Is the cousin of Nathan.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Exactly. He's.

[Debra Roberts]

He's still very angry.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

He's still very angry. One of my favorite parts of producing is just doing these interviews and you never know what you're gonna get. And so I arrived a little bit earlier the day you interviewed Chuck Lapena. And I said, can I take you out and just do a little drive and shoot some video with you? And he said, where would you like to go? And I said, well, is there anywhere you would want to go that would mean anything to you? And he said, well, why don't we go to the cemetery?

[Debra Roberts]

Wow. That's how that came about.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

That's how that. And we do as much research and pre interviewing as possible. But he had never mentioned that.

[Debra Roberts]

And you certainly didn't want to presume to Ask him to go to the cemetery. It could be very painful.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Yes. And so he drove us to his. Well, his uncles. John Chaklos. It's the Chakalos plot. Nathan is buried there. John chuckles is buried there. And Linda is not buried there.

[Debra Roberts]

They never found her body. But he wanted at least a stone to represent.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Right. And so he was upset, angry that her stone wasn't there. But it was just. It was quite an honor to be invited into such an intimate moment. And, you know, just the two of us drove there and he allowed me to document him paying respects to. To his family members. So that was a powerful moment for me.

[Debra Roberts]

Sometimes in these stories, we do find moments that we aren't expecting. And that's, I think, to me, on a human level, that's what makes the work that we do so interesting and, you know, so rewarding in some ways, even though it's a very sad story when we're talking about true crime, but rewarding to connect with a family member and to hopefully maybe bring a little bit of lightness to them just for that moment to be able to share their story.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Right. And I hope it was cathartic for him. You know, sometimes he talked about how other family members are just sick of him talking about this. So I think it's nice just to have someone listen to you. And I think it was complete cathartic.

[Debra Roberts]

Hear your story.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

Exactly.

[Debra Roberts]

Well, John, J.B. deborah, this was really great.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

It was wonderful.

[Debra Roberts]

It wasn't as bad as you thought it was.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Now.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

I was nervous, but this was great. You always make it easy. Now I know what it's like being.

[Unknown]

Interviewed by Deborah Roberts.

[Debra Roberts]

Well, you're always the one setting up these interviews. So it was such a pleasure to finally get a chance to talk with you about how we do all of this. Thanks for joining us. Jonathan is a producer for 2020. That is our show. Don't forget to tune in on Friday nights at 9 for all new episodes of 2020 on ABC. The 2020 after show is produced by Cameron Shirtavian and Sasha Aslanian with Joseph Diaz, Brian Mazersky and Alex Barenfeld of 20 20. We had technical help this week from Trevor Hastings and Kevin Rider. Theme music by Evan Viola. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020. Josh Cohen, the director of podcasting at ABC Audio. Lara Mayer is the executive producer.

[Unknown]

When the Moore family ditched cable Internet and switched to siddly fiber, they got so much more. Mr. Moore got more upload speed for next level gaming and live streaming to the masses with reliable service. Ms. Moore is no longer her family's IT guru, leaving her more time to stream games into overtime.

[Debra Roberts]

Let's go.

[Unknown]

And young Mason Moore got more done quickly uploading HD product demos and video conferencing without FreeSync.

The numbers look good, Brad.

[Jonathan Balthazar]

You're on mute.

[Unknown]

Switch from cable Internet to Zibli Fiber and get more of what you love for $65 less per month than cable@zibly.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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