Deborah Roberts (2:23)

You can't argue with the royals, just for something different.

Aaron Katersky (2:25)

Yeah. The scenery is good.

Deborah Roberts (2:26)

Yeah.

Aaron Katersky (2:27)

But court is a happy place, even though for very many, it is not a happy place.

Deborah Roberts (2:32)

It's not a happy place. Yeah.

Aaron Katersky (2:34)

But for me, it's its own world, it's its own community. It has its own characters, its own dramas, its own histories. And that's what makes it interesting, because all of that gets renewed every single time there's.

Deborah Roberts (2:51)

And you see a lot of these same people, from the bailiffs to some of the investigators to the reporters to, I'm sure, sometimes some of the same judges you've seen over and over.

Aaron Katersky (2:59)

And that's the best. When you know the judges know you, they give you a little nod.

Deborah Roberts (3:05)

The nod.

Aaron Katersky (3:06)

Did he like it? Did he not like it? But the judges set the tone for how all of these cases are going to go. They're sort of the. There's a hierarchy. Right. And it all starts with the judge and the attorneys, the court officers and the people from the community that have made it a habit to sit in on these trials. And some of the same ones sat in on the Trump trial, sat in on the Sean Combs trial, will undoubtedly sit in on the Luigi Mangioni trial.

Deborah Roberts (3:39)

You mean just average people who just like to come to court and see what's happening?

Aaron Katersky (3:42)

A lot of them are retirees. The group of women I met covering the Dzhokhar Tsarnaev trial, which is a death penalty case after the Boston Marathon bombing, they were there every single day.

Deborah Roberts (3:52)

Wow.

Aaron Katersky (3:52)

And you'd talk to them to get their impressions of what they saw, and they became characters in the.

Deborah Roberts (3:58)

Interesting.

Aaron Katersky (3:59)

In the story just because they wanted to see justice unfold.

Deborah Roberts (4:03)

Yeah. Almost like courtroom groupies. I think that might be your. I think that might be your book or your TV series.

Aaron Katersky (4:09)

Those are my people.

Deborah Roberts (4:10)

Those are your people. Well, Erin, I'm curious, because there's so many intricacies of the law, and you have to peel back all the layers, and you do such a great job.

Aaron Katersky (4:20)

Thank you.

Deborah Roberts (4:21)

Of breaking it down, helping us understand, not only legally what is happening, what might happen or why that didn't happen. And you're not a lawyer.

Aaron Katersky (4:30)

I married one.

Deborah Roberts (4:31)

Well, that's helpful.

Aaron Katersky (4:32)

Yes. Sometimes that's.

Deborah Roberts (4:33)

Well, I can imagine. I can imagine. But we see you in all of these locations, whether it is, as I said, government cases to the Diddy case and so many others. And it obviously is very intriguing to you. So you say these are kind of your people. Let's go to the Diddy trial, which Just happened. And so many people were glued. I was just really surprised at how deeply people were invested in it. If people could only see some of the emails. We get back and forth. And I'm on that chain. When you're sending us emails about what just happened and what we can kind of expect, it's really, really interesting. Talk to me first before we get to Diddy about being even in that courtroom. Because when he was arrested, that was one thing. But just for you, being in that courtroom and seeing things unfold and seeing these defendants as you got a chance to see Diddy for a long time.

Aaron Katersky (5:19)

There'S never been another defendant, criminal defendant, like Sean Combs. And this is a storied courthouse, the Southern District of New York, that has seen mobsters. President Trump has been a defendant in a civil case with E. Jean Carroll, Sam Bankman, Fried, Senator Bob Menendez. I mean, all sorts of characters. And those are just the recent ones. Martha Stewart was the first one I covered in that.

Deborah Roberts (5:45)

Oh, interesting.

Aaron Katersky (5:46)

But Sean Combs is larger than light.

Deborah Roberts (5:49)

Yeah.

Aaron Katersky (5:50)

And he walks in. I'll never forget the first time looking, to be honest, a little bloated, a little shell shocked, white hair. The first time it was still being colored, I think.

Deborah Roberts (6:03)

Okay, got it.

Aaron Katersky (6:04)

But over time, there he is looking, you know, like a suburban dad or something, you know, in his little sweater and. And the graying, and then almost all gray. White hair over time.

Deborah Roberts (6:17)

Cause this was a guy who was always put together, if you ever saw. And I used to see Sean Diddy Combs out and about at different events, and he was always polished and dressed immaculately.

Aaron Katersky (6:27)

He was a fashion plate. I mean, had his own line. Had his own line, had an entourage with impeccably dressed women who turned out to be some of the people testifying at the trial. And so to see him just as the criminal defendant and then what he was accused of, that I think slapped the celebrity out of it and made you think this is potentially a very serious criminal.

Deborah Roberts (6:58)

Yeah, well, I want to get to that in a second, because that is what became a little bit, I guess, complicated at the end, what he was accused of and also what we heard about him. But just talk to me a little bit about when you were assigned this story, because we heard and there had been rumblings that Sean Diddy Combs might be arrested. And then, of course, that video came out, that horrific video of him assaulting Cassi Ventura. And everybody was horrified by this. What was that like for you, knowing that you were going to be covering that trial even before it started, the.

Aaron Katersky (7:27)

Anticipation started ahead of the arrest. And we sort of got word that it might happen now, it might happen this day, it might happen that day. And it caught everybody by surprise because federal agents with Homeland Security investigations ended up taking him formally into custody at a hotel in Midtown. And they did it ahead of when we were all expecting it. The scariest part was remembering who he was, because he'd been a little bit out of the. He was never far from the public eye.

Deborah Roberts (7:57)

But, I mean, he wasn't in the spotlight as much recently.

Aaron Katersky (7:59)

Not as much recently, but he was certainly an iconic character.

Deborah Roberts (8:02)

Oh, my gosh. Those white parties that he would give in the Hamptons. And everybody came to those parties. Big names, big names. Not just celebrities, but CEOs and all kinds of folks came to his parties.

Aaron Katersky (8:13)

He brought hip hop into the mainstream, and now he's accused of trafficking women. And the other part that was, I think, the biggest challenge to cover was to keep focused on the narrow issues at hand in the trial versus what everybody thought they were. Like, when is Justin Bieber gonna come testify? And when is.

Deborah Roberts (8:35)

And that had nothing to do with the charges that he was facing. So he was charged with trafficking and racketeering and a number of charges that sort of almost were like, as you said, narrower than what we saw. So talk about what we saw, because we didn't see it. You saw it. We only could see sketches. But you saw some of his associates, his assistant, who testified. Of course, Cassie Ventura was the star witness. This woman who had been his girlfriend, kind of a protege, a singer, but who talked about horrible abuse from him. What was that like, Aaron, emotionally watching these folks? Because they were very emotional, from what you reported.

Aaron Katersky (9:12)

They were incredibly emotional, and that was difficult. But just to start with Cassie Ventura, who is a strikingly beautiful woman, and she is pregnant.

Deborah Roberts (9:26)

Eight months or nine months pregnant. Yes, yes.

Aaron Katersky (9:28)

Ready to go pregnant. And comes to the witness stand and then gives this emotional outpouring of testimony and describes what went on.

Deborah Roberts (9:41)

Horrific.

Aaron Katersky (9:42)

Most of it I couldn't say on tv, but I wrote a lot about it. And there's no pearl clutching anywhere because it was very graphic. And to hear her explain rather methodically but graphically and through tears, what it was that she said she was put through against her will, despite what the defense said.

Deborah Roberts (10:04)

Incredible. As far as you could feel. You felt credibility there.

Aaron Katersky (10:09)

Yeah. Because who comes on a witness stand.

Deborah Roberts (10:14)

And gives all that.

Aaron Katersky (10:15)

Gives all of that in detail. I'm making this up.

Deborah Roberts (10:18)

What about the overarching message that we had gotten over the years, which is that people were fearful. This was a man who had had that kind of street cred. And you got the impression that even though you had heard rumblings over the years that Sean Combs might at some point be brought up on charges, people were afraid, right, to testify. And then suddenly, now they're all turning and they're all testifying. What was his body language like? A guy who probably did strike fear into a lot of people. Now he's on trial, and they are actually throwing all this evidence out against him.

Aaron Katersky (10:49)

I saw two different people, because on one hand, you could see that the power dynamic would shift. Somebody was testifying from the witness stand against Combs, the defendant, who maybe had been a boss or a mentor or some other kind of power figure in the relationship. But there were moments where you could see he still held sway, whether they made eye contact, whether there was just a dark look. And there were moments when you could feel Combs eyes go. Go dark. And there were moments where he was outwardly too much for the judge, expressing incredulity at what some of the witnesses were saying.

Deborah Roberts (11:40)

In fact, the judge actually chastised him at one point.

Aaron Katersky (11:42)

He admonished him on a couple of occasions not to gesture or to make particular glances, especially toward the jury, where it seemed like he was trying to influence testimony. But then there were times where it seemed maybe like he was slightly cowed by what he was hearing, maybe from Cassi Ventura. And in the end, whether the jury bought it or not, they largely sided with him.

Deborah Roberts (12:11)

Well, you know, interestingly, I think a lot of people were shocked. And ultimately, as you said, the jury surprised people. Not guilty of racketeering and sex trafficking, but guilty of two counts of transportation to engage in prostitution. And ultimately, he was sentenced to 50 months in prison and has begun serving his sentence sentence. People were surprised, but I think a lot of people felt that maybe he was overcharged. Even though we know about the video, and there was a lot that we had heard about when it came to those specific charges, it might have been tough for the jury. And then those 50 months, of course, we all heard about it, and I got a chance to cover just a little touch of this at the very end of it. And people seem to think, at least lawyers, and I'm sure you heard this, seem to think that the judge was trying to acknowledge that he had done some terrible things. So he gave the 50 months. But on the other hand, many people felt it wasn't enough. How shocked were you by it?

Aaron Katersky (13:02)

I was surprised, truthfully. I thought the prosecutors had done enough to convict on the sex trafficking of Cassi Ventura. Jane Doe is a bit more complicated, but look, it was a tall order. Prosecutors were asking the jury to believe that women who stayed with Sean Combs in some cases for what Cassie Ventura was 11 years, were forced to do things against their will. Now, I think in our society, we now have a nuanced view of sexual relationships, and people understand it can be consensual until it isn't. But for the jury, and certainly for the defense, the way they presented the case was this was the life these women wanted, and they were willing to.

Deborah Roberts (13:55)

Do things and enjoying the money and the privilege and the status and all that.

Aaron Katersky (13:58)

It may not be your cup of tea or my cup of tea, but this was Sean Combs swingers lifestyle, and the women were happy to be part.

Deborah Roberts (14:06)

Of it, and they were going along with it. Well, it was a controversial verdict on some levels, and then some people seem to think that at least it was something. Sean Combs was clearly shocked. He's been transferred now to a federal prison. He's not happy with that sentence, even though many people felt that he got off pretty light because he was facing, what, life in prison? Right.

Aaron Katersky (14:26)

I mean, he was facing what would have amounted to a life sentence, for sure. And the judge repeatedly made it clear he didn't like the violence that was depicted on the video that we've now all seen involving Cassi Ventura. And. But he's still appealing because he believes that even the transportation for the purposes of prostitution was too much and misapplied, because, remember, his theory is, I wasn't profiting from the prostitution. I just wanted to watch. So being a voyeur is, you know, no harm, no foul.

Deborah Roberts (15:04)

Yeah.

Aaron Katersky (15:05)

That's obviously not the way prosecutors saw it or charged him, and the jury found enough to convict. But we'll see if, on appeal, he's successful in arguing that the law was.

Deborah Roberts (15:16)

Misapplied, which is so interesting, because, I mean, when you think about it, what is that, like, four years and he's already had some time served? I mean, there is a. You're tempted to say, just do the time.

Aaron Katersky (15:25)

He could be let out before the appeal is fully adjudicated.

Deborah Roberts (15:28)

Exactly. It's a case that we could go on and on. You and I could talk about this for a very long time, but there are other cases I do want to talk about. So, Erin, stick with me here, and you stick with this, too, because we're going to jump into another case, another big story of the Last year, the Karen Reed case in Boston. And Aaron is going to help us navigate all the twists and turns in that story. We'll be right back.

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Deborah Roberts (16:51)

Hello, everybody. We are back with a special edition of 2020, the After Show. And we're talking with Aaron Katursky here who is helping us break down a lot of these court cases that you have covered over the years with us. But specifically the last year or there have been some heavy hitters.

Aaron Katersky (17:08)

It's been a doozy of a year.

Deborah Roberts (17:09)

It's been a doozy. And I'm curious, too. You get a lot of last minute notice. Something just happened, whether it's a verdict or whether there's just, you know, something in the Comey case that just happened recently and Letitia James and the courts just ruled and you are on at a moment's notice. And you know that that's gonna happen. That's, that's kind of, that's a lot of pressure.

Aaron Katersky (17:29)

Well, you don't wanna get it wrong.

Deborah Roberts (17:30)

Yeah.

Aaron Katersky (17:31)

And so you try to follow the cases. So when something does happen, you have a little bit of reserve in your head. But the verdicts, I still get the heart palpitations. I can imagine when there's a verdict because that's the culmination of the whole show. Right. And you never know. Everyone always says, what do you think the jury's gonna do? It's a fool's errand.

Deborah Roberts (17:55)

Nobody knows.

Aaron Katersky (17:56)

You have no idea to guess. You can't guess. A jury.

Deborah Roberts (17:58)

Yeah.

Aaron Katersky (17:58)

We were talking about the case of Sean Combs where I thought the prosecutors had done enough at least on the trafficking of Cassie that maybe they could get a guilty verdict there. Jury disagreed. Sometimes juries surprise you.

Deborah Roberts (18:11)

Yeah.

Aaron Katersky (18:12)

Sometimes, you know, they are in line with what you think is going to.

Deborah Roberts (18:17)

Happen what you've seen? Well, the jury in the Karen Reed case, I think, surprised people in the very beginning, and then the second time, not so much. But this is a case that just captivated people of a woman who was accused, a very attractive, young professional woman in Boston, accused of running down her police officer boyfriend after a party. And they had all been drinking. And she was accused because they were having a fight and probably breaking up, deliberately running him over with her car, leaving him in the snow to die. Why were so many people caught up with the Karen Reid? I remember when it broke, and it was fascinating, but people were just. It was like cult status for people.

Aaron Katersky (18:52)

Well, I think there's a couple of points, because initially, the way it was portrayed, this is like woman scorned, right. She is apoplectic at the state of the relationship. Perhaps they're drinking, whatever, and she is, forget it. I'm gonna run him over. The way the prosecutors portrayed it intentionally, and I'm gonna let him die in the snow.

Deborah Roberts (19:17)

In the snow. Yeah.

Aaron Katersky (19:19)

And drive off. And then I think people also get hooked for a different reason, because there were questions about how the police handled the evidence. And the victim here is a cop, and did fellow cops try to sway the evidence a certain way, and then that plays on people's suspicions about authority. And remember, because this came at a time when there's been deep skepticism about the integrity of some police forces. And so you start to wonder there. And then here comes in the end, the defense with an entirely different theory involving dog bites and all this. And it gave reason for people to be interested.

Deborah Roberts (20:06)

And people love these cases when there's doubt. I mean, you think back to the O.J. simpson case and the glove, and if it doesn't fit, you must acquit. And so whenever there is reason to doubt, people love to doubt these cases. Well, the first case, as she went to trial, the first case was. But not just the jury didn't come to a conclusion. It was a hung jury or. Yeah, hung jury. Then she's tried again the second time, and people, again, are just gathering around this trial. It took a long time. Talk to me about this, the second case, because again, she actually went out and talked a little bit about the story about her case, and which was surprising, one of our reporters actually talked with her, and, you know, you kind of thought, maybe there's enough doubt there. What were your feelings as you're seeing the second trial play out? Were you starting to feel that there was ample doubt here about whether she Actually did this.

Aaron Katersky (20:55)

And when was the last time you saw somebody accused of murdering someone go on television and talk freely and rather openly about it?

Deborah Roberts (21:06)

Usually their lawyers will not let that happen.

Aaron Katersky (21:08)

That's right. But here her lawyers had a whole different theory of what Karen Reid was about. And she became, in their eyes, the. The victim of. Of a messed up prosecution and a corrupt police system. And look at the injuries on the victim. They're more consistent with a dog attack than, than. And. And then came the. The triangulation of the car and the. The automatic braking systems and all. And it was convoluted enough.

Deborah Roberts (21:45)

Yeah. The jury said, well, yeah, we don't buy it. There were a lot of armchair investigators and sleuths out there who thought they knew what happened. And you're right, it was very convoluted. Now, what about that verdict? I think a lot of people were shocked when she walked out of that courtroom. They said people erupted in the streets. She was acquitted.

Aaron Katersky (22:03)

She walked out of the courthouse and down the steps. This is just outside of Boston in Dedham, Massachusetts. And there is a crowd waiting and erupting in cheers. And that certainly validated her defense's argument and her. And there are still some civil cases that may or may not go anywhere so far. Not really. You're left with this one family, the family of John o', Keefe, that is still trying to.

Deborah Roberts (22:41)

Trying to find justice because they want to know what happened to him. She was convicted of a smaller child, drunk driving, basically. Drunk driving.

Aaron Katersky (22:49)

But that's not here or there. She is in the eyes of the law anyway, acquitted of the murder.

Deborah Roberts (22:57)

Wow. And so we still don't know. There's still not really finality in this case about what happened to him.

Aaron Katersky (23:02)

Well, there's no other suspect that. That police or prosecutors have necessarily put forth. And so for the o', Keeffes, this may be a dead end ultimately, unless.

Deborah Roberts (23:16)

There is something else, unless there's some new evidence.

Aaron Katersky (23:18)

Prosecutors were pretty clear. They thought they knew what happened and presented it in the best way they could to the jury.

Deborah Roberts (23:25)

To the jury, it's gonna be one of those. It's like everybody loves the mystery of what happened, and I think this one will resonate for a while. What about her? What's next for her?

Aaron Katersky (23:33)

Well, she's got a civil case or two to deal with, but that's largely it. Now, if you're her, do you go hide for a while or do you.

Deborah Roberts (23:47)

Take those offers for movies and all of them books? And I'm sure those are all coming her way.

Aaron Katersky (23:51)

And that has to be maybe what's next in a fuller story of her and who she is and how she got in the position that she did.

Deborah Roberts (24:01)

Aaron, that one was is one that again, people will still be talking about this one for a while, even though she is acquitted. Well, we've got another one we want to talk about, so we can just talk all day, but we won't. Just give us a second. We're going to come back and we're going to talk about the murder of United Health Care CEO Brian Thompson. Aaron had a revealing report on this in this case involving Luigi Mangione, the young adult who was charged in that murder. So stay with us. We're going to talk about that one. In just a few.

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Deborah Roberts (24:52)

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Deborah Roberts (25:08)

We are back with 20 20, the After Show. And Aaron Kintersky is here with these mesmerizing stories. The stories that we have covered and you have covered our 2020 special manhunt, Luigi Mangione and the CEO murder. It was a story that, of course, you had been following from the beginning. Everybody was talking about the, the story and we, you know, leapt into gear and covered this story. This was one that was just so perplexing. New York City. This guy was walking in midtown Manhattan. Suddenly this CEO was gunned down. Early morning on the street. Police are searching for the killer and New York police mobilized. I mean, the idea that this would happen. They mobilized and they eventually bring this young man, Luigi Mangione, from a fairly prominent family. Tell us a little bit about that one and how it unfolded and what you began to learn the minute you jumped on it.

Aaron Katersky (25:58)

Well, he's caught almost on a lark, sitting at a McDonald's, having taken his mask down to eat, and he's recognized. And police in Altoona, Pennsylvania, they call and they say this guy looks like the guy was wanted in New York. And he in the interim has become something of a celebrity, a celebrity which to the Manhattan district attorney, Alvin Bragg and to police is appalling, that a murder suspect would become endearing.

Deborah Roberts (26:31)

But, well, when you think about the health care crisis in our country and the way people feel about executives Aaron, I was shocked by that because oftentimes when you and I cover these stories and there is such an outpouring of just, you know, exasperation and grief and outrage and this man is gunned down and. And there really wasn't that same kind of outrage that, I mean, he wasn't from the New York area, he was from Minnesota, I think. So you wouldn't have necessarily heard it all here, but I was shocked that there wasn't as much outrage that a health care executive was gunned down.

Aaron Katersky (27:06)

Oh, the conversation online was astounding when people and some cases more openly say, eh, healthcare, it's terrible. Who hasn't been denied or who hasn't had been frustrated by health insurance at one point in their life. And Luigi Mangione became the embodiment of the I'm fed up and I just can't take it anymore. And people almost seeing an excuse for what was a cold blooded assassination that he is now charged with in both state and federal court. He's pleaded not guilty and his attorneys are counting on some of those people who see him a certain way to maybe find their way onto a jury one day.

Deborah Roberts (27:51)

Well, talk about him a little bit. And we should also say too that he shared an area with Sean Diddy Combs in the jail where he was being held at the same time all these notorious folks there.

Aaron Katersky (28:00)

What a time. Mangione was at the Metropolitan Detention center in Brooklyn, which is on the waterfront in Brooklyn. Sam Bankman Fried was there for a minute after he was convicted. And Sean Combs is there. And you don't know how much these people interact, but could you imagine these conversations?

Deborah Roberts (28:23)

Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. That's a movie unto itself right there.

Aaron Katersky (28:29)

But Mangione was certainly a bit different. I mean, he does not look like your typical murder defendant. He's been getting thousands of pieces of mail. They started to catalog it, the defense started to catalog it online and you could sort of see the volume. Some had a. There was a package given to him that had some certain socks that became a focal point for a minute and heart shaped notes. But he is facing charges in federal court that could get him the death penalty and in state court that could get him 25 to life. And so there's this real imbalance between how he is portrayed by some of his admirers and the very calculated killer that prosecutors say he is.

Deborah Roberts (29:22)

What's next for him?

Aaron Katersky (29:24)

I think a trial could happen in late 2026, whether it's going to be in state court first or in federal court first is up in the air. But the very way he was arrested and subsequently how we came to know about what he might have been thinking is all now being challenged by the defense. They say that police in Altoona, Pennsylvania, did not arrest him properly, that the search and seizure of his backpack that contained writings that contained the murder weapon, as prosecutors have said, was all improper. And so they're trying to suppress all of that evidence. And it's the writings that gave us a clue. Right. The target is healthcare. It checks every box Mangione was said to have written. And that gave prosecutors what they believed to be motivation, that he was trying to send a message by gunning down Brian Thompson. Now, the defense says none of that evidence is admissible, and they're gonna try and leave it out.

Deborah Roberts (30:34)

Some of that thrown out. And let's be honest, Aaron, that's the key. If you get a very clever and skilled and expensive defense team, which he apparently has, you get people who can make these arguments and overlap.

Aaron Katersky (30:48)

Because one of the defense attorneys who I think was successful in getting Sean Diddy Combs off on the most serious charges, Mark Agnifolo is on the defense team for Mangione.

Deborah Roberts (31:01)

Well, you know the cast of characters. That is for sure.

Aaron Katersky (31:04)

We know them well.

Deborah Roberts (31:05)

You will know what's happening, Aaron. We could go on and on. And there's so much to dissect on this case, by the way. Mangione is from a prominent family in Maryland, in Maryland politics, in his family.

Aaron Katersky (31:16)

One of his relatives is a state legislator in Maryland. You know, well to do parents went to an elite private school and traveled around different parts of Asia prior to this. And one of the things that prosecutors have been trying to do is figure out what led him down the path he's alleged to have gone on.

Deborah Roberts (31:43)

Because everybody seemed to think that this is a young kid who has a bright future, who may even wind up in politics or some big leadership role in the world. Here he is now accused of giving.

Aaron Katersky (31:52)

A valedictory speech at his, you know, at his graduation. This is not someone, by any accounts, who's dim or who has anything but everything going for him. Yeah.

Deborah Roberts (32:05)

And that's what makes it more interesting for us to cover. Well, you are gonna be on it. We know it. Aaron, it's always, always a pleasure to catch up with you. This was great.

Aaron Katersky (32:12)

I'm so happy to be here.

Deborah Roberts (32:14)

I hope you enjoyed it, because I certainly did. So we'll have to have you back. Cause there's more to talk about with this case. Especially as it unfolds.

Aaron Katersky (32:20)

I'm in.

Deborah Roberts (32:21)

Aaron Katerski great have you and thank you to the listeners out there. We appreciate your being here with us. And remember, you can catch the latest 2020 episodes Friday nights on ABC and you can stream episodes anytime on Disney plus and Hulu. Thanks for coming by. See you soon.

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