The After Show: New Updates on the Gilgo Beach Murders

Summary

20/20 After Show: New Updates on the Gilgo Beach Murders

Date: June 8, 2026
Host: Deborah Roberts (ABC News)
Guests: Josh Margolin (ABC News Chief Investigative Reporter), Christina Corbin (20/20 Producer)

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Episode Overview

This 20/20 After Show episode delves deeply into the evolving case of the Gilgo Beach murders, focusing on breaking developments: the dramatic guilty plea of Rex Heuermann, the highly publicized architect and family man turned accused serial killer, and his subsequent agreement to cooperate with the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit. The conversation brings context from decades of reporting, insight from speaking with victim families, and discussion of what this means for future investigations. The episode centers on revealing both the human and investigative sides of this infamous Long Island case.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background and Evolution of the Gilgo Beach Case

• Case Summary: The Gilgo Beach murders involved a series of killings of young women, mostly sex workers, whose remains were discovered along Ocean Parkway, Long Island.
• Discovery: Coverage began in 2010 when the first bodies were found, triggering media and public attention.
  • Josh Margolin: “My first front page story at the New York Post was the day that they found the first bodies at Gilgo Beach in 2010.” [02:31]
• Victim Humanity: A recurring theme was the fight to humanize the victims, many of whom were stigmatized due to their profession.
  • Christina Corbin: “I did form a pretty close bond with several of the family members over the years.” [04:37]

2. Initial Investigation Complications

• Location Challenges: The desolate, brush-filled area made discovery and investigation difficult.
• Confusion Among Law Enforcement: Disagreement plagued early investigations—some authorities profiling a “crude street urchin,” others, a well-to-do, professional male. There was further confusion over whether there was one killer or multiple perpetrators, given differences in victim treatment and disposal.
  • Christina Corbin: “There was a lot of disagreement among law enforcement over who we were looking for.” [06:10]
  • Josh Margolin: “A street urchin...is not going to be able to move around like that.” [07:45]

3. Breakthrough in the Case: The Arrest of Rex Heuermann

• Emergence of New Evidence (2022): A fresh task force, including the FBI and state police, revisited cold case evidence using advanced DNA techniques, ultimately narrowing in on Heuermann.
  • Josh Margolin: “They start looking at it. They take a number of steps, and they wind up backing into the reality...that this is a professional person who has some money...” [07:45]
• Suspect Profile: Heuermann, a married architect with an office in Manhattan, did not fit early stereotypes, shocking both investigators and the public.
  • Christina Corbin: “It was a real shock to people that actually we're dealing with a married father of two, an architect with an office in midtown Manhattan.” [09:08]
• Arrest: Heuermann was arrested in July 2023, maintaining innocence initially.

4. Guilty Plea and Courtroom Developments

• Surprise Plea Change: The defense had fought hard, filing motions and challenging evidence but lost at every legal turn.
  • Josh Margolin: “They had made every motion under the sun. ... Rex’s defense team lost every move. The judge ruled against him at every turn.” [13:13]
• Scope of Confession: Heuermann pled guilty to murdering seven women and admitted to an eighth killing (Karen Vergada)—a case where prosecutors lacked enough evidence for trial.
  • Christina Corbin: “You can’t really argue with DNA because hair that was found on some of the remains was ultimately linked to him.” [14:19]
• Waiver of Appeals: Heuermann waived his right to appeal and fully confessed, providing closure to the prosecution on several unsolved cases.
  • Josh Margolin: “There is no doubt about what Rex did. He admitted to all of it.” [16:44]
• Courtroom Atmosphere: Heuermann’s demeanor was described as calm, not remorseful; the entrance into the courtroom was haunting and silent, punctuated by the sound of shackles.
  • Josh Margolin: “So he is preceded by the sounds of his own chains coming at them. ... He was calm. He was not particularly remorseful. He was not particularly emotional.” [17:37, 17:40]

5. Focus on Families: Impact and Reaction

• Heuermann’s Family: Authorities and journalists confirm that his ex-wife and daughter had no knowledge or involvement.
  • Josh Margolin: “Law enforcement...does not believe that they had any awareness of his crimes.” [18:47]
• Victims’ Families: Mixed emotions prevail, but most feel relief at avoiding a painful trial, even as true closure remains elusive.
  • Christina Corbin: “For the most part, I would say they feel like a huge burden has been lifted that they don’t have to go through a trial and hear all of the graphic details. ... But at least he has confessed.” [19:54]
  • Deborah Roberts: “I never like to use the word closure, and I know victims families hate that word.” [20:16]

6. Looking Forward: Heuermann’s Sentencing and FBI Cooperation

• Sentencing: Expected to receive multiple life sentences, ensuring he will never be released.
  • Josh Margolin: “It would be a shock on top of shocks to see him ever walk out of prison.” [21:02]
• Cooperation with FBI: As part of his agreement, Heuermann will work with the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit, sharing insights to help solve other crimes and illuminate the mind of a serial killer.
  • Josh Margolin: “It was really remarkable when we heard that the Gilgo plea deal had this component where Uerman was agreeing that he would cooperate with the experts at the FBI...” [22:14]
  • Christina Corbin: “They would like to work with Rex Uerman to sort of get inside the mind of a serial killer. What motivates them?” [23:51]
• Notable Behavioral Elements:
  • Pattern changes—victims spaced more closely in later years.
  • Heuermann taunted victims’ families via phone, cleverly masking his location.
  • Early speculation suggested a perpetrator with law enforcement knowledge.
    • Christina Corbin: “He actually taunted the victims families by using the cell phones belonging to the victims and calling families and leaving these weird, creepy messages.” [25:11]

7. Broader Reflections: Serial Killers and Law Enforcement Stereotypes

• Misconceptions Challenged:
  • Stereotypes of what serial killers “should” look like have been upended.
    • Josh Margolin: “We didn’t picture them as a middle class architect, professional living out loud, being on YouTube.” [26:31]
• Continued Impact:
  • The case will likely inform future investigations, refine profiling, and perhaps lead to the resolution of other cold cases.

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Notable Quotes

• Christina Corbin on Victim Perception:
  “There was largely this perception that somehow their profession sealed their fate… Spending any time with their family…they were sisters, they were daughters, some of them were mothers.” [04:37]
• Josh Margolin on Courtroom Tension:
  “You hear him before you see him. So you have this big 6 foot 4 imposing figure, shackled, walking through this blind hallway…so he is preceded by the sounds of his own chains coming at them.” [17:37]
• Christina Corbin on Family Relief:
  “For the most part, I would say they feel like a huge burden has been lifted that they don't have to go through a trial and hear all of the graphic details. Of course, it is bittersweet...” [19:54]
• Josh Margolin on Behavioral Analysis:
  “The FBI has really been in the vanguard of trying to understand crime, the nature of crime, the nature of criminals. And the crime that has really baffled the experts for all of these years have been these serial killers.” [22:21]

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Major Timestamps

• Background & Discovery: [02:31–04:37]
• Investigation Complexities: [05:06–07:18]
• Heuermann Arrest & Shock: [07:45–09:32]
• Plea & Courtroom Details: [13:13–16:44]
• Victims' and Heuermann’s Family Impact: [18:37–19:54]
• Looking Forward – Sentencing & FBI Cooperation: [21:02–25:49]
• Law Enforcement Learnings: [26:13–27:07]

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Tone & Style

The episode maintains a compassionate, investigative tone: alternating between hard-hitting facts, the emotional toll on families, and thoughtful critique of law enforcement methods. The voices of Deborah Roberts, Christina Corbin, and Josh Margolin blend objective analysis with personal reflection, showing empathy for victims while honoring the complexity of these long-running investigations.

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Conclusion

This After Show episode offers fresh updates and rare insight into the Gilgo Beach murders, documenting not only the facts of the case but the profound ramifications for families, law enforcement, and public understanding of serial killers. The cooperation of Rex Heuermann with the FBI introduces hope that understanding the criminal mind may aid future cases, and the story continues to evolve. The episode is essential listening for anyone following true crime—with careful, clear reporting and powerful first-person perspectives.

Transcript

[Christina Corbin]

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[Deborah Roberts]

Hi, Everybody. Welcome to 20 20, the After Show. So happy you're with us today. I'm Deborah Roberts and you are joining us for a pretty special story because we're going to take a deep look, a special look at a major case that so many people have been talking about around the country. It's one of the most shocking crime stories I think that we've ever covered here on 2020 and many of you have heard of it. It's called the Gilgo Beach Mur. This was a series of killings of young women whose remains were discovered along Ocean Parkway on Long Island, New York. And at the center of those killings was someone that people just never would have imagined, a 59 year old architect by the name of Rex Heuermann. Well, I remember this case so well because I was assigned to it when he was arrested in New York City in July of 2023 for the murders of three women before he was later charged with the deaths of four other women. This past April, Heuerman shocked everybody. He had steadfastly maintained his innocence and then he showed up in a courtroom in Suffolk county and changed his plea. And people are still talking about that and the reverberations and what that's going to mean possibly for law enforcement down the line. We're going to get into the details of what happened in that courtroom and also how police might be now working a little bit with Heuerman to try to solve other crimes.

[Christina Corbin]

You know.

[Deborah Roberts]

Yep, you heard that right. They will be putting their heads together with him to try to see if they can solve other murders. Here to help us uncover all of these details and to talk about it all is ABC News chief investigative reporter Josh Margolin and 2020 producer Christina Corbin. Hey, guys, you both have been on this story for a very long time. I had heard about it over the years and as I said, I jumped into it reporting just a few years ago when we heard about Heuerman. But Josh, this goes back decades and New Yorkers definitely have been talking about the story of these missing. When you worked for a newspaper, the Post, you worked on this story.

[Josh Margolin]

My first front page story at the New York Post was the day that they found the first bodies at gilgo beach in 2010.

[Deborah Roberts]

That was your first.

[Josh Margolin]

That was my first front page story at the Post. I had just started the week before. And so I have stayed with the Gilgo beach story all these years, through the investigation, through the years when we in the media thought that it had gone cold and nobody was looking at it. And it was.

[Deborah Roberts]

Yeah, it was just under the radar. And also, too, there wasn't this real connection for a very long time.

[Josh Margolin]

Right. So what. What the story revealed in those earliest months and then years was that Suffolk county and the highways that. That traverse Long island and then go all the way out to Suffolk, which is the. The bigger of the two Long island counties, but it's also farther away, is that you'd have these isolated areas along the highways, very, very dark. These aren't population centers right around the highways. And that it had, you know, become a dumping ground for. For victims of crimes. Now, we originally thought that the victims would largely be like, you know, mob victims. Right. But then we ended up, you know, we have these. These women who. Turns out that they were sex workers.

[Deborah Roberts]

So the belief was mostly not all of them, but mostly at.

[Josh Margolin]

At Gilgo Beach.

[Deborah Roberts]

Yeah.

[Josh Margolin]

And the thought was that these were women who were victims of the johns.

[Deborah Roberts]

I walked along that highway when I went out to cover the story, and I remember just being so struck by how desolate it was, as you said, and at night, nobody's out there, nobody can see anything, and the brush and how dense it was. Christina, you don't go back quite as far with these cases, but what, 2010, you got involved in these cases, and as you always do, because you bring such a personal touch to everything you do with us when you're booking stories and meeting families and you got a chance to talk to the families of these victims, because many people saw them as these sort of faceless women who really, in a way, as coarse as it sounds, who almost don't matter. And you really helped to bring to life who these women were and the fact that they did have family members who cared and who worried about what had happened.

[Christina Corbin]

Yeah, I think there was largely this perception that somehow their profession sealed their fate and they were different from the rest of the population. So we should not be afraid that there's a Jack the Ripper on the loose out on Long Island. But spending any time with their family. I mean, they were sisters, they were daughters, some of them were mothers. And I did form a pretty close bond with several of the family members over the years.

[Deborah Roberts]

Shannon Gilbert was one of the names that surfaced early on.

[Christina Corbin]

Yeah, so Shannon Gilbert was a 23 year old escort from Jersey City, New Jersey. She disappeared from Oak Beach May 1, 2010. And it was actually the search for Shannon some six months later that led to this mass grave site of women at Gilgo Beach. Gilgo beach is about three miles from Oak beach, give or take. So it was actually Shannon's disappearance that led to the discovery of the Gilgo 4. Melissa Barth LeMay, Maureen Brainerd Barnes, Megan Waterman and Amberlynn Costello.

[Deborah Roberts]

You know their names all so well.

[Josh Margolin]

And while Shannon's disappearance led to this discovery, it's important to note that Rex Uberman has not been linked to her death, nor has he been charged in Shannon's death.

[Deborah Roberts]

Yeah. What were the theories, Christina? Early on, because police didn't know really what they were dealing with. And as I said in the beginning, they didn't even know that they were all connected. What kind of led to the complications of the investigation because it took multiple investigators, some who had left the, you know, police forces, new folks came in and to have fresh eyes to look at it, what complicated it so.

[Christina Corbin]

So there was a lot of disagreement among law enforcement over who we were looking for. I remember a very well respected, very intelligent detective with Suffolk county saying to me that the suspect is a crude street urchin. That is the description that he gave. And then I remember an FBI source saying, actually we believe this is somebody who's a white middle aged man, has a good job, drives a nice car, interesting. Probably blends in very well with the rest of the population. So those were two very different profiles. And then there was disagreement over whether we were dealing with one killer or, or two killers because the earlier victims were found dismembered, the later victims, the Gilgo four, were not dismembered. So was, do we have two killers or was this one killer who had evolved over time? And I think most in law enforcement believed that his early victims, he went to great lengths to dispose of them and dismember them. And then when they were not found, he realized, well, I don't have to do that with the later victims. So it was, it was a debate among law enforcement whether we had two or whether we had one.

[Deborah Roberts]

Yeah, and somebody who had an ego about it too, because they thought they could get away with it. Josh, as you said, this case, people thought just. Was just going to linger and just be cold forever. And then in 2022. Because I remember talking to some of the investigators, and they said, you know, a new. They never really gave up on this. They just never really got anywhere. Then a new task force comes on board in 2022. They start re examining evidence, some old evidence that changed everything.

[Josh Margolin]

But all of this had been happening for months to years. And then they all decide, you know what? Let's all go in. Yeah, let's open those files. It's actually, in some jurisdictions, they call it a cold case review. And what they do is they say, let's put a task force together. Everybody's going to cooperate. And so what ends up happening is you have this new team that's there. They bring in the FBI, they bring in the New York State Police, they bring in the New York State DNA analysis capabilities, and they start looking at it. They take a number of steps, and they wind up backing into the reality that Christina said, which. Which is that this is a professional person who has some money, who has access to professional spaces, who can move around freely in the community. A street urchin on the island is not good. Is not going to be able to move around like that.

[Deborah Roberts]

Yeah, I thought that was so fascinating that they had a profile. Christina. And then at a certain point, there's that car. There was a car that they identified that they thought was a little bit unique. And putting that together with this professional person, and it eventually leads them to Rex Heuermann. And people were just, like, stunned. This is a guy who was an upstanding architect. He was a family man. He was married, he had children. And police were even stunned when they recognized that this was probably the guy they were looking at, right?

[Christina Corbin]

That's right. And Rex Uhrman lived in a home in Massapequa, Long Island. Massapequa was long a focus here because some of the victims were phones pinged from a tower in Massapequa, Long Island. But it was a real shock to people that actually we're dealing with a married father of two, an architect with an office in midtown Manhattan. It was a real shock. That's the profile of the person.

[Deborah Roberts]

In the end, they arrested Heuerman in July of 2023. And I remember all of New York was. Was abuzz about this. Well, I want to talk more about that, because that was so fascinating. But when Heuerman was arrested, he absolutely maintained his innocence. And then recently, he changed his plea. When we come back, we're going to get into some of the details that happened in the courtroom, and you're going to hear some exclusive Details on how the victims families feel about this latest development in the story. So don't go anywhere.

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[Deborah Roberts]

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[Josh Margolin]

We were very surprised. So we, we started hearing over the last few weeks that this was something that was circulating around. But it was a surprise to us because by all accounts, he seemed like he was going to fight this tooth and nail. They had made every motion under the sun. They were trying to keep every piece of evidence out. Now, importantly, Rex's defense team lost every move. The judge ruled against him at every turn. Every piece of evidence that had been developed by police and the DA's office was going to be entered into trial.

[Deborah Roberts]

But they saw the handwriting on the wall, obviously.

[Josh Margolin]

But we couldn't even calculate why they would plead out, because if they're gonna wind up going to prison for a bunch of murders, why not roll the dice? Exactly. So it was very surprising to us, and I don't know that we even know to this day exactly what the behind the scenes rationale was.

[Deborah Roberts]

Well, he pleaded guilty to murdering seven women and even admitted to killing an eighth victim who we had not really talked a lot about. Karen Vergada. Did that surprise you, Christina?

[Christina Corbin]

It didn't surprise me because he was a suspect in her death. But I think, you know, his defense was trying to get the DNA evidence kicked out, and that failed. And I think the walls were closing in on Rex Hurman. And you can't really argue with DNA because hair that was found on some of the remains was ultimately linked to him.

[Deborah Roberts]

Yeah.

[Christina Corbin]

And so that just. There was just no way getting around

[Deborah Roberts]

that there was so much evidence.

[Christina Corbin]

And to Josh's point, yeah, we really don't know exactly why he decided in the end to plead guilty. Some people have speculated that he wanted to spare his family, his wife or ex wife, rather, and his children from hearing all of the gruesome details about what he did to these women, the torture, the strangulation and everything.

[Deborah Roberts]

Does that make sense to you, that maybe he would want to do that?

[Christina Corbin]

Yeah, possibly.

[Deborah Roberts]

I mean, possibly because we hadn't heard from them and, and how they would, how they felt about all that. But his Ex wife and his, his daughter were in the courtroom. But Josh, he actually waived his right to any appeals of his conviction. And we cover so many stories where we keep doing updates about appeals that are being filed, but he waived his right to two appeals and then admitted to a murder that he hadn't even been charged with. How do you think that deal came about?

[Josh Margolin]

Well, we don't know exactly what happened in the room, I have to say that. But we do know that when somebody is going to agree to plead guilty, a lot of times the prosecutors will insist. If you are going to do that, will go along with it, but you must do X. So the final victim here, the Karen Vergada victim, they knew that they could not prosecute that case because they didn't have enough evidence. They suspected Rex as, as Christina said. And so they wanted Rex to admit to it so that way they could actually be able to go back to the family and to the public to say that's a solved case. So we do have, have a lot of instances like that. Also, notably in this case, different than in some of the other high profile plea deals. There were admissions that were entered in and the prosecutors made a point of explaining the crimes in a way that in some jurisdictions they don't. And that sometimes winds up being controversial. In this case, there is no doubt, there's no doubt about how the investigation went. There's no doubt about what was going to happen at trial. There's no doubt about what Rex did. He admitted to all of it.

[Deborah Roberts]

That was really something else. What was that like in the courtroom?

[Josh Margolin]

Well, the courtroom was hushed when Rex came in. And there's, there's, I mean, he's a tall, imposing figure. Very imposing. He's imposing in a room full of people. Right. So you're talking about a packed courtroom. Also, the way the Suffolk county courthouse lays out, you actually have the holding cell behind that closed door that everyone sees on tv. You have the holding cell right near that room. So he's a big guy and he's shackled. And, and so the chains clank. And so you have. The courtroom is hushed, family is there, full of media, global attention. And you hear him before you see him. So you have this big 6 foot 4 imposing figure, shackled, walking through this blind hallway. So he is preceded by the sounds of his own chains coming at them. Very.

[Deborah Roberts]

It was kind of haunting. What was his demeanor like?

[Josh Margolin]

You know, the papers focused on it. They said he was almost smirking. Now, it's also easy to take a snapshot of somebody In a weird facial expression at a moment, and you say it's a smirk, but it's just somebody's facial expression changing. He was calm. He was not particularly remorseful. He was not particularly emotional. But I think it's important in those moments for us to know what we know, covering crime the way that we do. We're talking about somebody who doesn't think

[Deborah Roberts]

like the rest of us, clearly. I like the way you always try to find that middle road. You never really want to go completely judgmental, Josh, and that's why you're so good at what you do. His wife Asa, and his daughter Victoria were in the courtroom. What do we know about the two of them and how they might be dealing with all of this? Because you and I made efforts. We've been trying to talk to them for the very longest time. What do we know about them and what impact this has had either of you?

[Christina Corbin]

I know they're very private people, and I know they asked for space following this announcement and said they would rather the focus be on the families.

[Deborah Roberts]

Yeah, yeah, we.

[Josh Margolin]

We know very little. Rex had something of a man cave that police now believe was his kill space. In the basement of the home, he kept guns. He kept weapons. But law enforcement very early on wanted the public to understand that officially, law enforcement does not believe that they had any awareness of his crimes. Certainly, they don't believe there was any involvement. They have been exonerated to the extent that they might have needed or wanted to be exonerated, that the crimes are believed to have been committed when the family was out of town, certainly not in the home. That's what we know.

[Deborah Roberts]

You know, we've done too many stories where there were people who had double lives and folks really didn't know in their lives what was happening. But enough about his family. Christina, what about the victims families? Because this was gonna be a moment for them to be able to know more, to go to court and to hear what happened, as awful as it might be. And now suddenly, you know, a stop in everything. How are they dealing, at least the few that you've had a chance to speak with? How are they dealing with this plea arrangement?

[Christina Corbin]

I've been in touch with several of them, and the reactions vary, but for the most part, I would say they feel like a huge burden has been lifted that they don't have to go through a trial and hear all of the graphic details. Of course, it is bittersweet because even though there's, you know, I never like to use the word closure, and I Know victims families hate that word.

[Deborah Roberts]

I'm sure they do, yeah.

[Christina Corbin]

That there is no such thing as closure to them. But at least he has confessed, and at least they are spared the trial. And, you know, I know at many points over the years, there were always these questions of will this ever be solved? And maybe the killer is actually dead, or maybe this is some drifter who had come through to Long island and he's long gone. So they know who did it.

[Deborah Roberts]

They have a face on.

[Christina Corbin]

They have a face. But it is bittersweet at the same time, understandably.

[Deborah Roberts]

Well, his sentencing is going to come this summer, and he's facing, obviously, life in prison without the possibility of parole several times over. Yeah, I was gonna say multiple life sentences. In other words, he's never getting out of prison. Right. I mean, that's. Is that what you're expecting is probably gonna happen in sentencing?

[Josh Margolin]

It would be a shock on top of shocks to see him ever walk out of prison.

[Deborah Roberts]

Yeah. Well, I wanna talk to you guys more about what happens from here because, as we said, he might actually, Heuerman might be working with police now to help them out, cooperating with the FBI. When we come back, we're gonna talk more about that and what we've learned about that agreement. So stay put, don't go anywhere.

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[Deborah Roberts]

Book [e-mail] welcome back, everybody, to 20 20, the After Show. I am sitting with our ABC News chief investigative reporter Josh Margolin and 2020 producer Christina Corbin. Let's talk about this idea that he, Orman, now has agreed to work with the FBI behavioral analysis unit to help them solve other crimes. Josh, you made it very clear it's not a cozy arrangement that they're working together. But he's agreed to cooperate. Absolutely.

[Josh Margolin]

And in fact, I mean, look, we've seen Silence the Lambs, we've seen the show Mindhunters, both of those, right? And Mindhunters with Jonathan Groff. It's.

[Christina Corbin]

It.

[Josh Margolin]

You know, the FBI has really been in the vanguard of trying to understand crime, the nature of crime, the nature of criminals. And the crime that has really baffled the experts for all of these years have been these serial killers, people who live among us, who travel among us, but have this terrible dark side, and they just kill. And the killing is the end in and of itself. And so it was really remarkable when we heard that the Gilgo plea deal had this component where Uerman was agreeing that he would cooperate with the experts at the FBI, as they try to do, like they did in Mindhunters or in Silence of the Lambs, go in and question him to understand the nature of the criminal mind, what made him tick, what activated his brain to want to kill people in the way that he did it, and then to plot it out and then to stop. As Christina said, we saw the evolution of his killing techniques in the earliest days, it's believed, of the crimes he committed. Then we see a period of years where there may have been no crimes committed. So what motivated him to stop? What motivated him to start?

[Deborah Roberts]

I remember talking about that early on with some of the detectives, which they may learn more about when they talk to him. Christina, what do we know about the focus of those interviews and what they might be able to.

[Christina Corbin]

Yeah, I would say the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit studies the psychological fingerprints at a crime scene. And from that, they like to develop a profile of who they're looking at, their age, their. Their profession. And they study things like, you know, their. Their M.O. the psychology behind it. And so they would like to work with Rex Uerman to sort of get inside the mind of a serial killer. What motivates them? I would say with these killings, they were actually getting closer and closer as time went on. We had one from 1993, 1996, and two in the early 2000s, then 2007, nine, and two in 2010 that were just like three months apart. Yeah, that would have been Megan Waterman and Amberlynn Costello, June 2010 and September 2010. So they were actually becoming closer and closer. So I think that, you know, to Josh's point, the FBI really wants to get into the mind of someone who could do this. And in Rex's case, I mean, these women were. They were tortured, they were killed, they were disposed of like trash. And then he actually taunted the victims families by using the cell phones belonging to the victims and calling families and

[Deborah Roberts]

leaving these weird, creepy messages.

[Christina Corbin]

Yes, well, he would call Melissa, Bartholomew's sister, and up upstate New York, and he taunted her. And he actually did it from some of the busiest cell towers in the world, like Times Square and Penn Station. He kept the call short, under two minutes.

[Deborah Roberts]

Very clever.

[Christina Corbin]

And. And. And at the time, I remember there being speculation that perhaps we were dealing with someone in law enforcement or someone who was knowledgeable of law enforcement tactics. And so, I mean, that. That was truly sadistic to be calling the families and then also describing in great detail what he did to them, what he did to Melissa Bartholomew.

[Deborah Roberts]

And you're so right, so clever about trying to, you know, make sure that he, makes sure that nobody could track him. Josh, when you think about it, and Christina alluded to this, you know, hiding in plain sight, the idea that Rex Heuermann was. And that's something that we have heard a lot from law enforcement about these serial killers. Sometimes they are right there in plain sight. Any other commonalities that over the years that you've sort of been able to piece together?

[Josh Margolin]

Well, what's interesting is over the years the experts have found that a lot of their original beliefs of how serial killers operate are not true. That the studying of serial killers has revealed a lot to law enforcement. You know, the old days we had this caricature of the serial killer like

[Deborah Roberts]

the Ted lurking in an alley or

[Josh Margolin]

in a big old car traveling along the interstate somewhere in the south or in the west without a lot of people around going after only hitchhikers or people without connections. We didn't picture them as a middle class architect, professional living out loud, being on YouTube doing videos about how he, how he works with New York City government to cut through red tape. So that's really the FBI behavioral analysis folks. They have really worked to make sure that they can learn why the stereotypes were wrong to help solve other cases. There are a lot of cold cases in this country. We look at them all the time.

[Deborah Roberts]

Yeah, yeah. So a lot of their assumptions might absolutely be dispelled because of what they learned. So more to come probably in the Rex Heuerman story, that's for sure. Well, you two, thanks so much for coming by. As always, great talking with you and so great to have you with us too. Thank you for joining us today. And remember, you can watch our latest 2020 episodes on Friday nights on ABC and you can stream episodes like this one anytime on Disney and Hulu. Have a good day, everybody.

[Josh Margolin]

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