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- [00:01]
Stacy Newman
Whether you're into unsolved mysteries, solved mysteries,
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Stacy Newman
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Stacy Newman
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- [00:21]
Debra Roberts
Hello Everybody. Welcome to 2020 the After Show. I'm Debra Roberts and as always, it's a pleasure to have you with us. Today we're going to take a deeper look at one of Our most recent 2020 episodes and this one so many people are talking about. It centers around an awful story which grabbed headlines when it happened back in 2023. And it also gained some notoriety most recently because it was the subject of an Oscar nominated documentary. It's the story of 35 year old Ajica Owens, who was shot and killed just yards away from her own home while protecting her children from what she said was ongoing harassment from her neighbor, Susan Lawrence. That fatal gunshot was fired on June 2, 2023, after what had been a long simmering dispute between Lorenz and many neighbors, really in the community about where Ajika's kids and all the other kids in the neighborhood could play. Well, the children would often play games around a small field that was right next to Lawrence's home. And sadly, after an incident on June 2, Owens approached her neighbor's door, was with her 9 and 12 year olds at her side to confront her neighbor about some behavior that had been displayed and she was met with a bullet which killed her. This was a story that just, I think everybody just couldn't get over. And I went down to Ocala, Florida to report this story for 2020. And I had a chance to walk through the neighborhood where Ajika was raising her four children and I had an opportunity to speak with her son, her mom, Pamela. But her 12 year old son Izzy is the one who just, I think, grabbed all of us. He had witnessed his mom's shooting and he just touched our hearts. Ajica was described to me by so many people as an ideal mom, a kind and hardworking person, her children the center of her life. And she had moved to Ocala from Fort Lauderdale, a very busy area, to a very quiet, affordable community, and ultimately wanted to raise her family there. But, but little did she know the danger that was lurking just next door to her. We are joined today by 2020 producer Stacy Newman. First of all, look at you. You look fabulous.
- [02:36]
Stacy Newman
Thank you. Just trying to keep up with you.
- [02:37]
Debra Roberts
Deborah, thank you for being here and doing this. You and I have been following this story. This mom who was shot on the doorstep of her neighbor's home and people tried to make sense of it. What was it about it for you that really caught your attention?
- [02:53]
Stacy Newman
Yeah, well, I am from Florida, so I heard about this story immed when it happened. And what really blew me away about it, besides what turned out to be the senseless violence, was the fact that the shooting had happened through a locked, deadbolted door. And then discovering that the victim, Angica Owens, she was bigger than life with these four children. And people in this community seemed to really just enjoy her and the kids. So really just diving into understanding who she was was something that stuck out to me.
- [03:25]
Debra Roberts
And one of the things that struck me, Stacy, was the kids would run around the neighborhood, a small community, and it was almost like this bygone era. Right. Of kids who just were hanging out in this town.
- [03:36]
Stacy Newman
Yeah. A lot of nostalgia, even for me. I remember being a child in Florida in the summer, just running around and riding your bike and roller skating and having a good time outside and to just see like that American nostalgia. But then the innocence just being ripped away from this tragedy.
- [03:54]
Debra Roberts
Yeah. And this was one that really was so tragic because there was this buildup, there was this feud sort of happening in the neighborhood. I really wanted to get a sense of what this community was all about. So you and I got in the car and drove and saw the neighborhood. What had you found out about the neighborhood there?
- [04:12]
Stacy Newman
I mean, really and truly, what you saw in the show as you described, the nostalgia. This was a very active community. And when we were there, you could kind of see the still hung over the air there. There weren't as many children playing in the area. I think at least one of the neighbors still lived there. It had really changed the complexion of this neighborhood that was just so close knit.
- [04:33]
Debra Roberts
And when you think about Ocala, for some of us who don't know Florida that well, I was really surprised. The beautiful horse farms. As you were approaching, as you approached the neighborhood, there was beauty and kind of a quiet community.
- [04:47]
Stacy Newman
It's renowned as sort of like this horse country. So even just a mile away from where this tragedy took place, beautiful landscapes that is almost picturesque. And then you kind of turn into this community. And I think it just. I think maybe you felt the same Ray. Right. The levity of it, how it just lands and you. When you turn in and just see these two little streets and then that field that became like the center of what led to this tragedy, this tiny field that these kids were playing on all day, it was just like right there.
- [05:17]
Debra Roberts
And Susan just couldn't stand it. She worked from home and seemed to be really bothered by the noise. What did the neighbors tell you? Because you had a chance to go and talk to the neighbors about that tension that was building up and what the dynamic was like between Susan and Ajika and the rest of the folks.
- [05:33]
Stacy Newman
I think the easiest way to. To explain it that the neighbor said is Susan was a nuisance neighbor. She was always bothered by any of the children running around, having a good time, throwing football, riding bikes, dancing, just having fun out there. It seems like she really wanted to be living more in a quiet retirement community. And that's not what this was. So I think, as with anything, once you see something, you can't unsee it. And I think Susan couldn't unsee or unhear the children running around screaming, yelling, just having a good time. And that bothered her incessantly.
- [06:08]
Debra Roberts
Yeah. Yeah. Just the noise. The noise that many people think of as just fun noise of kids squeaking and screaming and all of that in the community bothered her.
- [06:16]
Stacy Newman
Exactly. And. But for her, she took it to the place of not having conversations with the parents and just kind of squashing it there. She would call the police.
- [06:25]
Debra Roberts
So she would call the police. They would come to the home. Typically, nothing really happened. There were no arrests, or nothing was ever happened legally. Whenever she would make these calls. Right.
- [06:33]
Stacy Newman
I mean, as you see in the show, one of the deputies, like, I don't ever think we got a call about children playing, you know, something as simple as children playing. But she seemed to think that something should be done, because the crux of the argument was over these no trespassing signs that she'd asked the landlord to put it. But because as we saw in that field when we went out there, there's two sides to that field.
- [06:55]
Debra Roberts
Yeah.
- [06:56]
Stacy Newman
So all the. Just went over to the other side. And that neighbor was completely fine with it and would play with the children. She didn't want them there at all.
- [07:04]
Debra Roberts
And she was a renter. There was the no trespassing sign, which. This was the source of a lot of aggravation. She had that installed, and police actually sort of had her number. And you see in the episode that they were getting annoyed by it. Things seemed to be really boiling, and the kids were playing, and Susan. And you heard in our episode, and you saw in our episode, the kids were playing and Susan threw something, and that was what sort of set things off. The kids came. Came home to tell her, and then things started to sort of snowball from there.
- [07:33]
Stacy Newman
The snowball really started with Roller skates and an iPad that one of Ajika's sons had left in the grass near Susan's property. And that's what she called police. First thing, these kids are trespassing. They're leaving their toys all over the yard. And then Ajika confronted her because she threw a roller skate. And she wanted to go over there and talk to Susan about the confrontation. And then we know, of course, sadly, how that ended, how that ended.
- [07:59]
Debra Roberts
But she was a mom who was going to complain to a neighbor and say, hey, you can't do this. That was the intention. She's got her two kids with her. And let's talk about this, because what you see in the episode, and it's just so heartbreaking, right? She's gonna confront Susan. So Aja is sort of yelling for her to come out on the stoop and take us through how that sort of played out. Cause it happened so quickly.
- [08:24]
Stacy Newman
Oh, it's all about two and a half minutes. It just happens so f past. And I think it's important for people to know, too, that Asica had gone over to Susan's house before to talk to her about these complaints she had about the children and had knocked on her door once before, but Susan never opened the door. And Susan also didn't grab a gun in that prior incident. But for some reason that day, she decided to shoot through the door. She'd already called police. They were on their way, and she didn't wait.
- [08:55]
Debra Roberts
So she shoots through the door. And Ajika's children were standing nearby. Nobody can believe this has happened. She backs away from the door. She ultimately falls down on the ground and she's struck. And, I mean, people are just shocked. And, you know, everybody talked about Susan appearing confused when this all happened. I mean, Ajika is taken to the hospital. She's eventually pronounced dead. And they're saying that, you know, you know, her behavior is kind of, you know, something that's sort of symbolic of what we would see throughout the investigation. Acting confused. But police know that there's been this encounter, that the shooting has happened.
- [09:33]
Stacy Newman
And Susan, you know, which speaks again to what some of Asica's friends told us, that Susan felt like the police were there for her. So she felt this shooting was justified and acted like it throughout the entire investigation.
- [09:48]
Debra Roberts
As if police are going to come and back her story.
- [09:50]
Stacy Newman
Back her story. So when they put handcuffs on her, you can see that confusion. You know, when they put her in the car, you could see that confusion of, wait a minute, I'm being detained for this. I'm the one who was threatened. I'm the one who was in fear of my life. And meanwhile, here's Ajica collapsed on the ground, and Susan hasn't even asked if she's okay.
- [10:12]
Debra Roberts
Susan was actually surprised when she was arrested, and that was what was shocking to me. Even sort of blamed police for not helping handle the situation.
- [10:20]
Stacy Newman
Well, you know, in her mind, and the way she used police, her point of view was if you had actually arrested her prior to this incident, this wouldn't have happened.
- [10:31]
Debra Roberts
That was astounding to me that she was laying it off.
- [10:34]
Stacy Newman
She was laying it off on the police. Because after these many calls over and over complaining about the children and complaining about Archika Owens, if, if police had pressed charges, if police had arrested her, she would be alive today and none of this would have happened.
- [10:50]
Debra Roberts
And arrested her for what? That becomes the big question. Were your children playing in the yard?
- [10:55]
Stacy Newman
Which is the point of this whole thing. Like, they would tell her over and over, we can't do anything more than take your complaints, put a police report together, give you a case number. And that just wasn't good enough for Susan.
- [11:08]
Debra Roberts
Well, this story, you know, quickly spread like wildfire. Everybody was talking about it. So I want to talk about the interrogation, because once police did take Susan in, that interrogation of her was also just unbelievable. And you'll see it in our episode. So we're going to take a quick break and when we come back, Stacy will help us go through this interrogation and why it was so significant. So don't go anywhere.
- [11:37]
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- [12:48]
Stacy Newman
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- [12:49]
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- [13:08]
Debra Roberts
Welcome back to 2020 the After Show. We are joined today by 2020 producer Stacy Newman, who worked with me on our most recent story for 2020. And we're discussing the episode, the tragic story of Ajica Owens, who was shot by her own neighbor, Susan Lawrence, after attempting to defend her children who had been playing in an area right near Susan's home. Stacy this is a story I think I won't forget for a long time, especially after meeting the family members. It took police four days to arrest Susan Lawrence. People were talking about this. They sort of knew that this had happened. It seemed pretty clear, I don't want to use the term black and white because that sort of factors, the whole racial motivation sort of factors in here, too. But it did seem pretty clear to many who were observing this. But investigators said they needed to understand if this was justifiable under the stand your ground law. And many people had heard about that law in Florida or after the Trayvon Martin case, George Zimmerman had claimed it was stand your ground. So that was something that factored in here. But, but people were not patient and they weren't believing that this was at all remotely connected to a stand your ground law.
- [14:20]
Stacy Newman
And stand your ground, you have a right to use deadly force if you feel you're imminently in danger without the duty to retreat. But Susan was already in her home. And Even on the 911 calls she made that you will hear in the show, she said she was standing behind a locked door.
- [14:37]
Debra Roberts
Yeah. And you, you mentioned earlier how she was actually shocked that she was put under arrest when eventually police did arrest her. This was a woman who felt that she was completely justified, didn't seem to see anything wrong. And that that's, we talked about that in Our piece about her mindset, that this woman really felt that she was victimized, even though her neighbor was the one who was dead at her hands.
- [15:00]
Stacy Newman
The neighbors told us she was a nuisance neighbor. She was always complaining. She was always calling the police.
- [15:05]
Debra Roberts
What struck me in the piece was that Susan first said that she just was trying to just scare Ajica. She shot the gun because she wanted to scare her, not really seeming to take responsibility for the fact that she had fired a fatal bullet. And then there were kind of inconsistencies in the way she described what had happened.
- [15:26]
Stacy Newman
You know, it was. They were asking her very specific questions and something she'd say, yes, I did that. And then, no, I didn't do that. But she used certain words and to try to kind of make her defense immediately. But because of the treatment she was receiving, which sometimes the police told us behind the scenes was tactical to get her to cooperate and to relax and to think that she was going to get off scot free, she believed she was not going to be arrested, were put on trial for this, because in Susan's mind, she's the victim, not Asheka Owens and not her children.
- [16:00]
Debra Roberts
We wanted to know who this woman is. We had a hard time getting anybody to sit down and speak with us on her behalf.
- [16:07]
Stacy Newman
You see, in the trial, there were a few people that knew Susan, like from her church, her sister, but they declined to be interviewed.
- [16:14]
Debra Roberts
We did know some things, and she had come from the Northeast and moved to Florida. And we did know that. I mean, in fact, I think she made a point of the fact that she said, well, I had, you know, friends of all, you know, races and so forth. So she wanted to make clear that this wasn't a racial incident. People felt it was racial violence.
- [16:30]
Stacy Newman
She used racial slurs, the way she spoke to the children, calling them slaves and get on the Underground Railroad. So it was very hard, number one, as a producer to put this together and realize kids so young had to deal with a type of verbal trauma. You know, we've experienced that.
- [16:50]
Debra Roberts
And I think that's kind of interesting too, for you and for me to cover this story, because obviously both of us being black women, Ajika being a black woman, you having lived in Florida, and to your point, you know, a woman who has used racial slurs. And I think for us, there's something a little heavier about covering a story like this and seeing a family and the trauma, because, you know, I think I experienced it a little bit differently than maybe one of my other colleagues might. And you probably did, too, as a producer.
- [17:19]
Stacy Newman
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, Deborah, I think what really was profound to me was it was hard, especially when you were doing some of those interviews with family. It was so hard not to see this could be one of my family members. This could be someone we know.
- [17:35]
Debra Roberts
Absolutely. And I want to get to that in just a minute. But let's talk about Susan's charges, because after she was arrested, she was ultimately charged with manslaughter with a firearm. You know, the family and the community was really frustrated. And we had a chance to speak with their attorney, Anthony Thomas, who actually, actually had been born and raised in Ocala. He was actually living in Tallahassee now. And. But Ben Crump, the noted civil rights activist and attorney, had contacted him and said, I hear there's something that's happened down there in Ocala. And, And. And this guy Anthony was very, very interesting in sharing what he knew about the neighborhood, what he knew about the community. It really spoke to him and resonated with him and the frustration that they felt and the community felt that this. This investigation was moving slowly.
- [18:22]
Stacy Newman
You know, there still to this day are people who believe there should have been at least a second degree murder charge here. Prosecutors thought otherwise.
- [18:30]
Debra Roberts
What I thought was interesting, though, was Anthony made a very interesting point to me when I sat down with him that sometimes you've got to go with charges that you feel that you can prove. And ultimately, he was in line with that. He wanted something that could be proven. A very, very astute lawyer. Well, I want to talk about the trial. And so when we come back, we're going to take you inside the courtroom in this case with Susan Lorenz, and we'll discuss the powerful interviews that Stacy just alluded to that we had a chance to have with Ajika's mom and her son. So don't go anywhere. We're going to share more about that.
- [19:10]
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- [20:24]
Debra Roberts
Welcome back to 2020 the After Show. I am sitting here with our talented producer Stacey Newman, and we're talking about the heartbreaking story of Ajika Owens, who was shot by her own neighbor, Susan Lawrence, after attempting to defend her children who had been playing in an area right near Susan's home. One of her sons was the one who ran to a neighbor to call police. And oh, Stacy, I had a chance to sit down and you were there right with me when I spoke with Israel, called Izzy, who is now 12 years old. And I got to tell you, this kid is something else. His family calls him Pastor Israel because he's this very well spoken, sort of religious kid and kind of an old soul. I have to tell you, he just took my breath away just by, not just by the strength, but the poignant, I mean, when he sat down and of course, like any Southern kid, he said, yes, ma' am to me, no, ma', am, when I said, why don't we sit here? Yes, ma'. Am. But immediately when he opened his mouth and just started to talk about the pain that he was feeling. But yet he's focused not on what he's lost, but what he has, which is his grandmother in his life, Ajica's mom, who was there with us at the time. Oh, my. I mean, we barely had any dry eyes as we were doing this interview with him.
- [21:39]
Stacy Newman
I mean, it's very rare that I watch an interview and I'm crying or just emotional. And it was hard to get through that. And I think I told you afterwards, I'm like, I don't know how you got through that because he is so impressive and dynamic and to see the impact of, I know who he's going to become in this world. And as you said, like, looking forward, looking at what he has, I just, I was blown away.
- [22:09]
Debra Roberts
Yeah, I was blown away, too. And I will think about him, I think, for a very long time because this is a kid who's lost his mother, lost his world in that way because the kids were Ajika's world. And for him to be able to say that, you know, I'm trying To be strong for my siblings. There's a reason that things happen, you know, all of those things that you might hear an adult say that, you know, I'm making the most of my circumstances. Even though it's difficult, I'm grateful that I have my grandmother in my life. To Ajica's mom, Pamela, whom I also had the opportunity to sit with, and her heartbreak, having lost her daughter. This is a mom, you know, had her daughter fairly young. So she's still youngish. She's in her 50s. She's. Her kids are grown. She now is embarking on a new life. She wanted to be a flight attendant. So she was living in Atlanta because she decided she wanted to see the world and do something new. And literally, as she was beginning that career, about to get on a flight, she gets a call that something's happened to her daughter. And her interview just was something else, too. When you be. When you met her and you began to talk to her, even in the beginning to get her to talk with us, what was that like for you?
- [23:17]
Stacy Newman
I can just see the beautiful soul of that family, you know, and she's so soft spoken, but strong and mighty, and I can see how much of a pillar that she is in Anjika's life before her tragic passing. But also for these four children and to see the preacher and the teacher that is in Izzy, and, you know, the impact of her is vital to how you see those kids moving forward, because that's one of the questions a lot of people had is how are they doing now? How are they doing now? And it's important to see that. And also there was this moment where you were interviewing Izzy and she was in the corner just weeping.
- [24:05]
Debra Roberts
I caught her out of the corner of my eye.
- [24:07]
Stacy Newman
And you can see the combination of grief and pride in her grief, of that he's going through this, grief, they're going through this, but also pride in how he's coming along, how he's coming
- [24:18]
Debra Roberts
along and what she's doing well, she's raising these kids. And that's another part of the tragic, the tragedy of this story that she is raising these grandkids who she just wanted to adore and love and visit from time to time. But now she's missing her daughter. And that was just something, I think, that was profound for all of us. And what I thought was interesting is that Pamela has done what a lot of families, but particularly moms, do. I've interviewed a lot of moms who've lost children, and she is trying to honor her daughter's legacy. She has co founded an organization and it's all about offering resources to people who might be experiencing racial violence and, and folks who need different things in their lives to be able to get back up and get moving after something like this. Right.
- [25:03]
Stacy Newman
Absolutely. Just as a way to honor Ajika Owens starting this foundation. But this is now her call. This is now her purpose, besides raising these grandchildren, is that she doesn't want to see other families go through what they had to go through and any way that they're able to support families, whether it's legal support, financial support, burial support, advocacy. She wants her daughter's memory to mean something and this should bring awareness.
- [25:36]
Debra Roberts
Yeah. It was great having you as my partner there down there riding in Florida. Stacy, so great, so great to spend some time with you. Thanks for doing this. How was it?
- [25:44]
Stacy Newman
It was great. It was great.
- [25:45]
Debra Roberts
It wasn't as bad as you thought it would be.
- [25:47]
Stacy Newman
Just pretended we were in the car again. Just put it on microphones.
- [25:50]
Debra Roberts
There you go. There you go. Well, we'll jump in the car another time and do another story. Stacy Newman, so great to have you here and thank you for being here with us and joining us for this podcast episode. You can watch our latest 2020 episodes as you know on Friday nights on ABC. So make sure you come back. And you can stream episodes like this one anytime on Disney plus and Hulu. Have a good day everybody. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home in auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [26:40]
Stacy Newman
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