Debra Roberts (3:01)

Yeah, yeah.

Matt Gutman (3:02)

They go from being like what seems like a normal family to disappearing into thin air. And I know we use that phrase all the time into thin air. But in this case, it was literally that. No messages, no email trail, no phone trail. They just disappeared.

Debra Roberts (3:18)

And, Matt, we saw you reporting from the McStays neighborhood. You're with a detective out there, Detective Brucos, talking about the family dogs that have been running around and one of the cars missing from the driveway. But they didn't see any evidence of a struggle. And then, of course, they start looking into this case, and there are a lot of things that are sort of strange that kind of began to stick out for them, but years are going by. Right.

Matt Gutman (3:40)

This is so interesting. You make a really good point. Right. Somebody calls in a welfare check. It's actually a guy named Dan Kavanaugh and other family members. Dan Cavanaugh is a business partner of Joseph McStay. And then, you know, police actually go to the house and they see, as you mentioned, the dogs barking, and they look like they've been hungry and sort of let loose in the yard. But there does not appear to be a crime. And so initially, law enforcement doesn't know what to make of this. So the family is not officially declared missing or at risk for a while. And so that's one of the reasons, I think, that this case takes so many years to unfold, because it's almost. It's well over three years before their bodies are found about 100 miles away from where they disappeared. And when investigators, when the family, when friends go into that house, Deborah, There was no evidence of a struggle.

Debra Roberts (4:34)

Yeah, yeah.

Matt Gutman (4:35)

No apparent murder weapons or a murder weapon. It seems like the family just disappeared. There's even food left on the counter. The kids clothes are kind of about. They. It looked like they were. They had just started. They had bought the house and they were painting and they were refurbishing and they were going through all this stuff.

Debra Roberts (4:53)

Like they up and decided to just leave.

Matt Gutman (4:55)

And for a while, Deborah, there was some thought that maybe they had gone to Mexico. And there's a good reason for that. Somehow the family Isuzu Trooper, which they had had with the car seat still in the back, was found right on the border at the San Diego crossing. Between California and Mexico, one of the busiest and most trafficked border terminals in the entire world. And the car is right there. Eventually, it's towed because it was parked illegally in a shopping center right next to the border crossing. And then investigators who still haven't declared a crime and start pouring over this video. And they think after, like, days and days, and with the help of good Samaritans, they're pouring over countless video feeds coming from the border terminal, and they believe that they spot this family of four that matches the description of the mixed days crossing the border into Mexico. And when they finally get those search warrants, they're able to go on the family computer. And there is some traffic and Internet traffic about, you know, traveling to Mexico, staying there. And eventually there's even a waiter who thinks that he spots a child with a description of one of the kids, even with an identifying birthmark, and he calls law enforcement in the U.S. or law enforcement is called, and then San Diego sheriffs and others or and the FBI end up going to Mexico. They interview the waiter at the restaurant, but it turns out to be nothing. Years go by, and still there is no word about what happened. A source of enormous distress to Joseph's mom, his dad, his brother. He was very close to them, but still there's no sign of anything.

Debra Roberts (6:33)

And that was what was so confounding about this case. Matt, one of the things, and before we go further into the investigation, I'm just sort of curious because one of the things we talk about on this podcast a lot is what it was like for us out in the field. And you're at this home where this family had recently moved into, and it's 15 years later. I mean, this happened in 2010. And it must have been sort of eerie for you, though. I mean, obviously you're reporting, but that must have been when you know what happened, which is that this family disappeared. Ultimately, you know, that they. They were not returned safely. The. The. Everything was left right there on the countertops. What was that like for you?

Matt Gutman (7:09)

It's such a stereotypical California neighborhood, Deborah. Right. Like, it is middle class. Right next to Avocado Fields. When we flew the drone, you could see that, you know, it's a really lovely place with lots of kids in the neighborhood. And even though it's all these individual houses, the McStay family home looked almost exactly like it did 15 years ago.

Debra Roberts (7:34)

Wow. Like frozen in time.

Matt Gutman (7:36)

Exactly. And the families knew then. And the family across the street, they still have the camera that essentially captured a tiny Bit of a vehicle leaving on February 4, 2010, the day that they are believed to have disappeared, the last time that they were ever heard from.

Debra Roberts (7:55)

One thing that I thought was interesting, when you're talking with investigators and there was a detail that we didn't get to put in our story, which is that a neighbor security camera actually happened to malfunction. And these days we think about cameras being everywhere. Right. They help police with these investigations. But before we hear more from you about that, let's listen to a bonus clip from your interview with Dennis Brugos of the San Diego Sheriff's Office.

Matt Gutman (8:16)

This is the house where the neighborhood had that camera, right. That had the home surveillance footage.

Detective Brucos (8:22)

And what that showed was a vehicle pulling out of the driveway sometime after 7 o' clock on the 4th of February and then driving down the street. Unfortunately, the picture wasn't clear enough to where you can get any type of reading on a license plate.

Matt Gutman (8:36)

And then for some reason, between February 5 and February 15, the homeowner says that her home surveillance camera malfunctions and she has no video. Is that significant for the investigation?

Detective Brucos (8:49)

Well, yeah, certainly. We would like to have as much video footage as we can. And that's one of the first things we do. We check for cameras in the area.

Matt Gutman (8:57)

Investigators come here, there is no sign of struggle. There is no blood, there is no DNA. There are no eyewitnesses. The one surveillance camera that might exist goes blank on the days they might need it. It feels like this is a really tough start.

Detective Brucos (9:10)

Well, it is. I mean, it was a tough case to start with. I mean, it never got much better.

Debra Roberts (9:16)

What about that security camera, Matt? Because it sort of malfunctioned a little bit, but it did sort of come into play in this story.

Matt Gutman (9:24)

One of the things, Deborah, that I noticed in the neighborhood is how closely people live, right? Everybody knows each other. And here you had the McStay family with two young children, two dogs in the yard, like they interacted with their neighbors. And today everybody's got some sort of doorbell camera or security camera, right? Everyone. We are talking about 15 years ago. The shocking fact is that it seemed to go out between the 5th and the 15th. These are critical days in the investigation. And one wonders what could have been captured, the comings and goings on those days. If someone had murdered the family at the house itself, would the video camera have captured it? Would it have seen more during the day? Would it have showed that person or people? Were there multiple people transporting the body or bodies or doing something? But the camera didn't work and that law enforcement didn't have any video footage from the 5th of February, 20, 2010 to the 15th of that month in 2010.

Debra Roberts (10:27)

Well, Matt, ultimately, you know, authorities arrest Joseph McStay's colleague in his business, Chase Merritt. We're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, we want to hear about your reporting on basically this disturbing story that people are still talking about in California. So don't go away.

BetterHelp Sponsor Voice (10:47)

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. October 10th is World Mental Health Day. So this year, BetterHelp wants to take a moment to thank therapists, people who make the world a better place. A therapist can give you a safe place to process a difficult emotion, reflect on a struggle, or just speak without a filter. And BetterHelp therapists have helped over 5 million people worldwide on their mental health journeys. For over 12 years, BetterHelp has been helping people find the right therapist. All BetterHelp therapists are fully licensed in the US and work according to a strict code of conduct. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. This World Mental Health Day, we're celebrating the therapists who've helped millions of people take a step forward. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com 2020Sylled out 2020. That's betterhelphelp.com 2020This show is supported by.

Debra Roberts (11:51)

Mind of a Monster, the killer nurse from ID from 1989 to 1995, nurse Karen Gilbert killed four of her patients at the Veterans Affairs Medical center in Massachusetts, and she's suspected of killing dozens more. On Mind of a Monster, a podcast from ID criminal psychologist Dr. Michelle Ward and dives into the mindset of Kristen Gilbert to try to find out why she would kill her patients and how she was able to do it in front of her colleagues. Ward speaks with detectives, journalists, nurses and victims families to unpack Gilbert's life and crimes on Ward C. Listen to Mind of a Monster, the killer nurse, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the after show. Before the break, we were talking with Matt Gutman about the report that he just brought to 2020. What happened to the McStays? Let's get back to the man who was ultimately convicted in this case, Chase Merritt. And prosecutors alleged that he was. He had been writing checks from the business, and he owed McStay, like, more than $40,000. I mean, this is where they're getting to the motive, that there was cell phone evidence that led them to argue that he was familiar with the location where the bodies were found. That was how they built their case. And all the evidence that painted a picture of him as the. As the likely suspect. Talk bit about Chase Merritt. He didn't testify, but we did ultimately hear from him in court after the fact.

Matt Gutman (13:21)

It turned out that Chase Merritt, according to prosecutors, had a gambling problem and that he needed money, and he was good at making these waterfalls. That was the business that he and Joseph McStay had. He was really good at producing this stuff. He wasn't so good at the business of it. So it turns out that he may have owed Joseph McStay over $40,000 and in back payments. It also turned out that he ended up, once Joseph disappeared, cutting checks to himself. And those checks began essentially the moment that Joseph disappeared. And they went on for a number of days, and investigators found that very suspicious. And then they built on the cell phones, and they learned that when it's believed that he was. That the family was disappeared and buried in the desert at some point thereafter in the next couple of days. Well, Chase Merritt's cell phone pings on a tower a mile and a half or two miles away from the site. Chase Merritt said, hey, my sister lives on the other side of that cell phone tower. And, you know, I'm very familiar with the area.

Debra Roberts (14:27)

Ultimately, he was convicted in this case, and you actually had an opportunity to speak with him after the fact. I mean, he's in prison now. Not many people have had that opportunity. You spoke with him via phone. Continues to argue a very different story. Talk to us a little bit about that conversation.

Matt Gutman (14:47)

Chase Merritt continues to profess his innocence. And remember, Deborah, this is a case that was decided solely on circumstantial evidence. There is not a speck of physical evidence that puts Chase Merritt either at the scene of the possible crime. Nobody knows yet where the McStay family was murdered, whether it happened in. In the house itself or if it happened in another place. That's how little physical evidence there is in this case. But it is all circumstantial. And he says, listen, it wasn't me. I wasn't there. They can't prove it. And he claims that there is evidence that the jury was not privy to from another cell phone expert who says Chase Merritt's cell phone could never have pinged near the side of the gravesite. The people who said that were wrong. They misinterpreted the data. And, you know, Chase Merritt could not have been there. He believes that that's exculpatory evidence that was not presented. His lawyer said the same thing. But the fact is his lawyer did have the opportunity to present this witness at trial and he didn't do it. He remains adamant that he did not commit this crime.

Debra Roberts (15:56)

And he had argued how much he loved Joseph and he never would have done this. Well, Matt, when we come back, we want to talk about the behind the scenes moments. Stay with us. Welcome back, everybody. I'm here with Matt Gutman. Matt, this story oftentimes like these stories do, take you to different places. This one took you out to the Mojave Desert. What was that like?

Matt Gutman (16:20)

On the one hand.

WhatsApp Sponsor Voice (16:25)

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more@WhatsApp.com if you look in one.

Matt Gutman (16:52)

Direction, it feels like the most remote place on the planet. Deborah, on the other hand, you're looking at i15 right behind you despite the blistering heat. And that is like one of the main thoroughfares from Los Angeles to Las Vegas. So on the one hand, a mile from where we were really traveled highway and everything beyond it is just wilderness. But luckily I was with these spectacular producers who I've been working with for over probably almost 12, 13 years, Alyssa and Sonny. And we got it all done. It was spectacular.

Debra Roberts (17:20)

Yeah, they had your back. Well, you know, it is important, though, for our audience to, to go to these places and to be able to in the storytelling to show everybody where these things happened. And you were right there. You know, basically it was sort of the grave site not far from the highway, as you said, where the bodies were discovered, the McStay family left behind there. And it's so interesting because it's like so close to this highway, as you said, but not necessarily clearly visible to somebody who would be driving by.

Matt Gutman (17:48)

So if you're driving on the highway, you would not have noticed us. But we standing there in the desert looking at the highway, saw every single car you could even, you know, see into the Trucks. Right. And I asked the investigator, how is it possible that nobody saw anything from the highway? He said, you know, folks are cruising there at 75 miles an hour. They're not looking a mile off the side of the road, and they can't see with that kind of detail, even though we're looking at them. And then the other side, about a mile and a half away, was this dump where there are lots of trucks and cars, but they're also not looking out for it. And so there was this memorial set up for them informally because the family of the McStays ended up. Obviously, the bodies were exhumed for forensics, but they were buried in a different place, which was actually their final resting place.

Debra Roberts (18:39)

Yeah, well, Matt, I mean, it was just a remarkable story. And it's kind of a reminder to us too that, you know, at the end of these stories, it's all about the loved ones, right? Those who are left behind, those who are trying to honor the people that they've lost, the victims of these crimes. And you and your team just did a really remarkable job of bringing to us this story of a mystery, but one that just really was so very captivating. So, Matt, thanks so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you for taking the time. I know it's a busy time for you. You probably gotta go hit the road again.

Matt Gutman (19:09)

Not for the next 15 minutes.

Debra Roberts (19:11)

Oh, yeah. Well, there you go.

Matt Gutman (19:12)

Always good to chat with you, Deborah.

Debra Roberts (19:14)

The 2020 After show is produced by Jess Yancilunis, Olga Delouse, Emily Schutz, Madeline Wood and Suzy Lu and Trevor Hastings of ABC Audio with Joseph Rhee, Elizabeth Stoller, Blue Browning, Tom Berman, Sonny Antrim, Brian Mazursky and Alex Barenfeld of 20 20. Theme music by Evan Viola. Janice Johnston is the executive producer of 2020, Josh Cohen, the director of podcasting at ABC, and Laura Mayer is the executive producer.

Men's Wearhouse Sponsor Voice (19:44)

You're a guy who just wants to look nice. The kind of nice where you might get a nice compliment on the niceness of your nice new outfit. Good thing. Men's Wearhouse has everything from polos to jeans and yes, suits. Plus a team to help you find the perfect fit to make sure you look nice, nice. Love the way you look. Men's Wearhouse.

John Quinones (20:00)

I'm John Quinones. Vanessa Guillen, a 20 year old soldier vanishes while on duty at an army base in Texas. Her family demands answers.

Sponsor/Commercial Voice (20:11)

How can she go missing on a military base?

Debra Roberts (20:14)

That's too ridiculous.

John Quinones (20:15)

The search goes on for months.

Debra Roberts (20:20)

Where is Vanessa?

John Quinones (20:22)

And a dark story starts to unfold.

Sponsor/Commercial Voice (20:26)

She told her family that she was being sexually harassed and wasn't reporting it out of fear of retribution and retaliation.

John Quinones (20:34)

What investigators finally uncovered Horrifying. Find out how one soldier, a beloved sister and daughter ignited a movement and sparked a reckoning in the US Military. Listen to Vanished what Happened to Vanessa, a new series from ABC Audio in 2020. Listen now wherever you get your podcast.