The Crime Scene: 'Doomsday Mom' Found Guilty, Again

Summary

Podcast Summary: 20/20 – "The Crime Scene: 'Doomsday Mom' Found Guilty, Again"

Episode Details:

• Title: The Crime Scene: 'Doomsday Mom' Found Guilty, Again
• Host: Brad Milke, Crime Scene Weekly
• Guest: Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo, ABC News & 2020 Editorial Producer
• Release Date: May 2, 2025

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1. Introduction to the Case

Brad Milke opens the episode by introducing a high-profile true crime case involving Lori Vallow Daybell, a mother convicted of murdering her two children and being implicated in other murders. He sets the stage for an in-depth discussion with Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo from ABC News, aiming to dissect the complexities and twists of this case that has captivated national attention.

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2. The Beginning: Disappearing Children

Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo provides a timeline of events starting in 2019 when Lori Vallow moved from Arizona to Rexburg, Idaho, with her two children, Tyler Ryan (16) and JJ Valo (7), along with her brother, Alex Cox. Shortly after relocating:

• [01:44] Mary Ellen: “Within a week of her moving there, Tyler goes missing. And a couple weeks later, JJ goes missing.”

The missing children prompted urgent investigations across Idaho and Arizona. By December 2019, Lori Vallow became a figure of national concern as both children remained unaccounted for.

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3. Relocation and Suspicious Activities

Lori's Move to Idaho:
The move to Idaho was partly influenced by Lori's affair with Chad Daybell, an author with doomsday beliefs, who would later become her fifth husband.

• [02:47] Mary Ellen: “Chad Daybell, he was a doomsday author... Laurie's niece... talks about Chad having a pendulum, and he would get messages...”

This association introduced elements of extreme ideology and questionable beliefs, setting a troubling backdrop for future events.

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4. The Disappearance Turns Deadly

Missing Children Found Dead:
In June 2020, the bodies of Tyler Ryan and JJ Valo were discovered in Chad Daybell's backyard in Idaho.

• [05:56] Mary Ellen: “Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow are charged with the murder of JJ and Tylee.”

Their discovery transformed the case from disappearances into a murder investigation, unveiling deeper layers of conspiracy and potential motives.

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5. The Background of the Suspects

Lori Vallow Daybell: Lori's upbringing in a Mormon family with parents involved in the sovereign citizen movement hints at early exposure to extremist ideologies.

• [06:14] Mary Ellen: “Laurie grew up in a Mormon family, and her parents were part of the sovereign citizen movement...”

Chad Daybell: Chad's persona as a doomsday author and his influence over Lori introduced a volatile mix of power, belief, and control.

• [06:14] Mary Ellen: “Chad says in his books that he has had these two near-death experiences...”

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6. The Death of Charles Vallow

First Fatality in the Saga: Before the children's deaths, Lori's fourth husband, Charles Vallow, was found dead in July 2019, shot by her brother Alex Cox in what Alex claimed was self-defense.

• [08:15] Mary Ellen: “...Alex Cox, her brother, in self-defense.”

Charles's murder added another layer of suspicion and raised questions about Lori's involvement in orchestrating multiple deaths for potential gain.

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7. The Trials and Convictions

Separate Trials for Lori and Chad: In 2023, Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell faced separate trials due to Chad waiving his right to a speedy trial.

• [13:02] Mary Ellen: “There were actually two trials. The cases were split in 2023...”

Other Victims: Tammy Daybell: In addition to the children, Tammy Daybell, Chad's wife at the time Lori moved to Idaho, was also found dead of asphyxiation in December 2019.

• [13:26] Mary Ellen: “The autopsy reveals that she died of asphyxiation.”

Sentencing Outcomes:

• Lori Vallow Daybell:
  Convicted of first-degree murder and conspiracy to murder her children and Tammy Daybell. She received three life sentences without parole.

  • [17:43] Mary Ellen: “She was sentenced to three life sentences without parole.”

• Chad Daybell:
  Convicted of three murders, conspiracy, grand theft, and insurance fraud. He was sentenced to death and remains on death row in Idaho.

  • [18:51] Mary Ellen: “He is sentenced to death. The death penalty actually went off the table with Lori, but it stayed on the table with Chad Daybell.”

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8. Recent Developments: Arizona Trial

Conspiracy for the Murder of Charles Vallow: In a turn of events, Lori was extradited to Arizona to face conspiracy charges related to the murder of her fourth husband, Charles Vallow.

• [19:14] Mary Ellen: “...the prosecution had to prove, that Laurie was involved and that it was a planned killing.”

Courtroom Dynamics: Mary Ellen recounts witnessing Lori's courtroom demeanor, including her decision to represent herself and a notable exchange with Nancy Jo Hancock, whom Lori confronted about dating her late husband.

• [22:46] - [23:30] Transcript Exchange:
  Lori: “You were on this date with my husband where you guys just talked about me all night long.”
  Nancy Jo Hancock: “No, we did not spend the whole time talking about you.”

This confrontation highlighted Lori's manipulative behavior and was a pivotal moment in the trial.

Verdict and Juror's Decision: Lori was found guilty based on compelling evidence, including text messages indicating a motive tied to life insurance.

• [25:33] Mary Ellen: “...she wanted to be with Chad Daybell, but they also wanted money. They wanted Charles Vallow's life insurance.”

Her defense strategy, which included dismissing the murders as accidental deaths or visitors from heaven, failed to resonate with the jury.

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9. Additional Allegations and Future Charges

Attempted Murder of Brandon Boudreau: Prosecutors allege that Lori and her brother Alex orchestrated an attempted murder on Brandon Boudreau to secure his life insurance, indicating a pattern of targeting family members for financial gain.

• [28:18] Mary Ellen: “The motive with Brandon is also life insurance...”

Although Lori has been convicted on multiple fronts, further charges continue to emerge, underscoring the breadth of her alleged criminal activities.

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10. Notable Courtroom Moments

Lori Representing Herself: Lori's decision to represent herself in court was a gamble that showcased her charisma but ultimately did not sway the jury.

• [20:58] Mary Ellen: “She decided to represent herself. In December of 2024...”

Impact of Closing Arguments: The prosecution's closing arguments played a crucial role in swaying jury members, particularly a male juror who changed his vote after hearing the comprehensive summary.

• [26:34] Mary Ellen: “...Trina K's closing arguments mattered to them...”

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11. Conclusion: The Human Toll

Mary Ellen's Reflection: Mary Ellen emphasizes the real-life tragedy behind the sensational headlines, reminding listeners that multiple families have suffered irreparable losses.

• [30:13] Mary Ellen: “Everyone has to kind of remember that while this might be a story to other people, these were lives and family members that people loved...”

The case of Lori Vallow Daybell stands as a stark reminder of how intertwined relationships, extremist beliefs, and financial motives can culminate in devastating criminal acts.

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12. Additional True Crime Stories

While the episode primarily focuses on the Lori Vallow Daybell case, it briefly touches upon other true crime news, including:

• Kim Kardashian Robbery Trial in Paris: Defendants known as the "Grandpa Robbers" face charges related to the 2016 abduction and robbery.
• Sean Combs Case: A federal judge allowed the admission of a controversial video in the sex trafficking and racketeering trial.
• Missouri Firefighter's Murder: A paramedic named Graham Hoffman was allegedly stabbed while on duty.

These segments provide listeners with updates on other significant true crime events happening concurrently.

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Closing Remarks: Brad Milke wraps up the episode by acknowledging the complexities and emotional weight of the Lori Vallow Daybell case, thanking Mary Ellen for her insights, and reminding listeners of ongoing developments in the true crime landscape.

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Notable Quotes:

• Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo [01:44]:
  “Within a week of her moving there, Tyler goes missing. And a couple weeks later, JJ goes missing.”

• Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo [07:50]:
  “Well, this is kind of where we get into the very gruesome and just heartbreaking part of the trials.”

• Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo [22:38]:
  “That was like, the line that everybody will remember from this trial, because she just put Lori in her place.”

• Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo [25:33]:
  “She wanted to be with Chad Daybell, but they also wanted money. They wanted Charles Vallow's life insurance.”

• Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo [30:13]:
  “These were lives and family members that people loved, and they were taken away. And this is truly a tragedy for several families involved in this.”

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the intricate details of Lori Vallow Daybell's case as discussed in the podcast episode, providing listeners with a clear and structured overview of events, legal proceedings, and personal reflections on the tragedy's broader impact.

Transcript

[Brad Milke]

Hey, this is Brad, host of the Crime Scene Weekly. Thank you so much for listening to our show here in the 2020 feed. After today's episode, we will be found exclusively in our own feeds. We're gonna have a ton of great new episodes on the horizon. I don't want you to miss a thing. So search for the Crime Scene Weekly. Follow that. You'll get all your new episodes right there for free wherever you listen to podcasts.

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[Brad Milke]

A mother convicted of murdering two of her children and conspiring to kill her husband's first wife in a doomsday plot has now been found guilty of conspiring to kill her ex husband as well. Welcome to the Crime Scene. I'm Brad milke. I host ABC's Daily News. Podcasts start here and every week we're bringing you the latest on what's big and what's new in the true crime space. This week I'm talking to ABC News and 2020 editorial producer Mary Ellen Resendez Schwizo. Thanks for being here, Mary Ellen.

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

It's great to be here with you. Good to meet you.

[Brad Milke]

So there's a lot to unback here. This case has taken like twists and turns over years at this point. So can you just remind us how Lori Valo Daybell initially becomes sort of part of the national conversation?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

Yes. We were first introduced to Lori vallow back in 2019. Lori moved from Arizona with her two children, 16 year old Tyler Ryan and her adopted son, 7 year old JJ Valo and her brother Alex Cox from Arizona to Rexburg, Idaho. Within a week of her moving there, Tyler goes missing. And a couple weeks later, JJ goes missing. JJ Vallow's grandparents filed a missing persons report. They were calling police departments between Idaho and Arizona, starting in Arizona, and just kind of alerting them that they've not heard from JJ Valo and they were really concerned. They also hadn't heard anything from his sister, Tyler Ryan. So that kind of started investigators in the background looking for the two children. And by the time we hit December of 2019, that's when the nation starts hearing about Lori Valo.

[Brad Milke]

And this happened after Lori Vallow then had moved from Arizona to Idaho with her two children and her brother. Right. Why the big move?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

One of the reasons Lori moves to Rexburg, Idaho, is she is having an affair with an author named Chad Daybell. He would later become her fifth husband. He lived nearby in Fremont County. And so that kind of spurred the move between her, her brother Alex Cox, her niece Melanie Boudre, and the two children that all move there. Although I do wanna clarify, Melanie moves there a couple months later.

[Brad Milke]

She's not there initially, but so there's the children missing. That gets everyone going, and they end up being found dead, right?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

They do, but not right away. There's a lot of mystery in between. And I think that mystery is what captivated the nation. And some of that mystery was when they had gone to do a welfare report on JJ and Tylee, they did catch up with Lori and Chad and Alex. Initially, Laurie tells them, or I think it was Alex that told them that J.J. had gone to be with his grandmother. And they said, well, that's kind of funny, because it's his grandmother who's looking for him. And so they go back the next morning, and this is in November, close to Thanksgiving, just before Thanksgiving of 2019. And when they go back the next morning, Laurie is gone. She's cleared out. Chad is gone, Alex is gone. They had disappeared. So at the time, the nation finds out that JG and Tylee are missing, we also don't know where Lori Valo is or we don't know where Chad Daybell is. It's not for about another month that they turn up in Hawaii. Investigators track them to Hawaii, and suddenly we see them on their way to the beach like nothing's happened. And there's some footage with Lori sitting by the pool, and the investigators are handing her this court order that she has to produce her children, you know, by the end of January.

[Brad Milke]

Like, they sort of track her to Hawaii. They show up and say, hey, back in Idaho, your children are missing. You're their guardian. Got to produce them somehow. Hello?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

Yeah. Well, I mean, they're simply asking her, where are the kids? And that kind of became the question, where are the kids? And, you know, she wouldn't tell them anything. So then a judge got involved, and the judge is saying, we need to know these kids are okay, because at that time, nobody knows. But there's so much concern over where these kids are. And whether they're okay, because at that time, we're not really thinking that the kids were murdered. So she gets a court date, and the judge says she's got to produce these kids. Laurie doesn't show up. And so a short time later, they arrest her in Hawaii. So By February of 2020, she's being extradited to Idaho. She's facing charges of child desertion and not providing for the children, basically charging to hold her until they can figure out what happened to JJ and Tyler. Months later, in June, JJ and Tylee are found in Lori's fifth husband's backyard. And they're dead.

[Brad Milke]

In Chad Daybell's backyard. Right. New husband. What happens next?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

So eventually, Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow are charged with the murder of JJ and Tylee.

[Brad Milke]

And then I think it's worth exploring a little bit more about the background of both of these suspects at this point. So Lori Valo, Daybell, what can you tell me about her and her sort of background?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

So Laurie grew up in a Mormon family, and her parents were part of the sovereign citizen movement. It's kind of an extreme ideology that doesn't believe they're beholden to the U.S. government. Valo, we know, was married about five times. The first marriage happening when she was very young. Her longest marriage is to Charles valo. It lasted 13 years. And when we interviewed her family, they felt it was the perfect match. Char really hit it off. That is, until she meets Chad Daybell. Chad was a doomsday author. He was living up in Rexburg, Idaho. The family originated in Springville, Utah. So Chad says in his books that he has had these two near death experiences, and they basically allow him to see or get messages from the other side of the veil. Laurie's niece, Melanie Boudreaux Pawlowski, talks about Chad having this pendulum, and he would get messages from however this pendulum would swing, but that he could see light and dark spirits. He could see when people went dark. And these spirits would eventually, if you listen to Melanie Gibb, Lori's best friend at the time, she talks about these dark spirits were called zombies. And in order for the spirit to be released, the body form had to die. They would just either they would become too dark that they would die, or, you know, they. They would have to die.

[Brad Milke]

Wow. And Laurie's niece said this later at trial. Right. But what's just so shocking about this whole case is that this isn't even the first time Laurie or Chad have been talking about this kind of thing. In fact, it's not even the first time someone in Laurie's life has been found dead. Cause before Laurie's kids were found dead, that fourth husband you mentioned, Charles Vallow, who she was married to for 13 years, he was also found dead. So can you walk me through how that unfolded?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

Yeah. I think when you start looking at the body count, it kind of takes you back to 2019. In January of 2019, there's footage of Charles Vallow. He has just come back from a business trip, and his truck is missing from the airport. He calls Gilbert police, and he is locked out of his house. His house is dark. He's asking police to help him get into his home. And when he does get into the home, it's empty. His belongings are gone. The kids are gone, the cars are gone, his work computers are gone. And he's telling Gilbert police that something's wrong with his wife. He loves his wife. He doesn't want anything to happen to her. But she's not well. She's telling him that she's a translated being.

[Brad Milke]

Translated meaning transformed, basically. Not a mortal being anymore.

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

Yes. And he's telling Gilbert police, she's telling him she doesn't need to eat and that she could kill him if she wants. And of course, now he's really concerned because he's got this empty house, and on that night, he doesn't know where his kids are. And so Laurie shows up the next morning to the Gilbert police station, and she kind of tells a different tale. In her story, it is Charles who's having the affair and that she caught him. So he's a little angry, and he's come up with this story. But she does go in for a mental evaluation here in Arizona, and she is released. She passes. By the time you get into February 1st, Charles is filing for divorce. And he puts a lot in that divorce filing. He talks about the religious belief she's an exalted goddess, that the zombies, that she believes that he's Ned Schneider. He's no longer Charles Vallow. He's now this spirit called Ned Schneider.

[Brad Milke]

He's saying that Charles is like, she's saying this stuff about me all the.

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

Time recently, that she's now saying this about me. And he's concerned. He's concerned for his life, and he's concerned for the safety of his children.

[Brad Milke]

And so his death is actually the first in what would eventually be a series of killings.

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

Yes. Several months later, on July 11, in 2019, Charles Vallow goes to a home in Chandler, Arizona, that he has rented for Laurie. He's there to pick up JJ and take JJ to school. But somehow or another, some type of tussle happens and Charles ends up dead, shot by Alex Cox, her brother, in self defense. But before police can investigate, Alex and Lori aren't moving again. And that's how they end up in Idaho in September of 2019. And of course, that sort of takes us full circle to when the kids first turn up missing.

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[Brad Milke]

And we are going to take a quick break right here. So when we come back, we will pick it up there in Idaho. With the murder trial over Lori's two kids.

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[Brad Milke]

We are back with ABC News and 2020 editorial producer Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo. So, Mary Ellen, to set the stage a little bit, we're in Idaho now. Laurie's kids had been missing, then later found dead in Chad Daybell's backyard. And now Chad Daybell, that author that Lori fell in love with, he and Laurie are being charged with the murder of her children, among other crimes. So can you walk me through that trial?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

There were actually two trials. The cases were split in 2023, even though the evidence was very much the same. Chad had waived his right to the speedy trial while Lori had not. So they had to sever those trials.

[Brad Milke]

Right. And so both Chad and Lori Are facing charges for the murders of JJ and Tylee. We should also mention there's another victim as part of this trial, Tammy Daybell, Chad's wife at the time that Lori moved up to Idaho.

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

Yes. And In October of 2019, Tammy suddenly ends up dead. She's training for a. So she seems very healthy, but she suddenly ends up dead. And Chad says no autopsy, and so they sort of listed it as natural causes. It isn't until December of 2019 that they exhume Tammy's body. The kids are missing, and all of a sudden, they're questioning what happened to Tammy, what really happened to Tammy. So they do exhume her, and they have an autopsy. The autopsy reveals that she died of asphyxiation. So comes into these trials as one of the victims.

[Brad Milke]

Okay, I see. And then Laurie is charged with and convicted of only the conspiracy regarding Tammy. Chad, on the other hand, is charged with Tammy's murder itself. So there are so many respective spouses, and there's the children. Can we get back to the kids? How do they think the children actually died?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

Well, this is kind of where we get into the very gruesome and just heartbreaking part of the trials. JJ died of asphyxiation, basically. JJ was found buried. He was bound by duct tape. He had a garbage bag over his head, and then he was placed into another garbage bag. And investigators really detailed just the. The tragic way of finding him of opening up those garbage bags and seeing his hair first sticking out of the garbage bag. So it was really, really heartbreaking and disturbing to jurors in how JJ was found. Tylee wasn't entirely found. There were parts of Tyler found in Chad Daybell's, what they would call their pet cemetery. Tylee had been burned. She had been parted. And so they were never able to determine exactly how Tylee died or whether she was burned before or after. So it really gets into some really gruesome details, and it's really disturbing to investigators. It becomes very disturbing to jurors when they have to see the autopsy pictures and what was left of Tylee and how j.

[Brad Milke]

And did they say Chad is the one who actually does the deed then, or someone else?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

Well, according to phone records, you know, they're using gps. They do believe that Alex was involved and that Chad was involved. They can see that Chad's and Alex's, you know, phones are on the property at the same time on the days that they believe the two kids were buried. And these were two different days because Tylee ends up missing first and Then a couple weeks later, JJ ends up missing. There's not a lot of testimony as far as how or when or who last saw Tyli. We know that just before she goes missing, there's a trip to Yellowstone park. And we see a photo of Tylie taken out of Lori's icloud. And you can see Tylie, jj, Alex and Laurie all at Yellowstone park with jj. It is Lori's friend Melanie Gibb and her boyfriend who go to Laurie's home. And they describe, you know, that was the last time that they saw jj. They remember JJ that night. They remember Alex coming to get jj. They remember Alex returning jj and JJ looked like he was asleep. But the next morning when they wake up, JJ is gone and they ask about him. And Laurie says he had been possessed by the spirit. He was climbing the refrigerator. So she kind of describes this disturbing behavior that was allegedly displayed by JJ and that was the last anyone saw jj. It took a while for police to actually figure out when JJ went missing. They used the school records to decide that. And then of course, Melanie Gibb and her boyfriend's testimony were key into when J.J. was last seen.

[Brad Milke]

When we're talking about Lori Valo, I know the cases are separate, but as far as Lori Valo, Daybell, what is her defense during this trial?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

Lori gives no defense, no witnesses are called. She doesn't testify, which is within her.

[Brad Milke]

Rights, of course, but so the verdict comes in. Lori's convicted of first degree murder and the conspiracy to murder JJ and Tylee. She's only convicted of the conspiracy to murder Tammy Daybell. She's also convicted of grand theft by deception for apparently taking their Social Security benefits after their deaths. What did her sentence end up being?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

She was sentenced to three life sentences without parole. We do end up hearing from her though. At her sentencing, she tells this tale that there were no murders at all. There was only accidental deaths, suicides, medication side effects. She tells people, or tells the court that JJ and Tylee are happy and they're busy in heaven. Tylee has visited her. She has told her not to worry. And Tammy Daybell is her eternal friend that Tammy also visits her to bring her peace and comfor. So the way Lori tells it, they don't blame her.

[Brad Milke]

And then Chad is convicted of the three murders, the conspiracy of all those murders, grand theft and insurance fraud. His sentencing is different though, right?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

He is sentenced to death. The death penalty actually went off the table with Lori, but it stayed on the table with Chad Daybell. So he is right now on death row. In Idaho.

[Brad Milke]

Well, and the reason we're talking about this right now is because now there's been an even more recent trial with Lori Valo. Daybell, this trial happened where you are in Arizona. What was that about?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

That's really interesting because it's almost like you had to go back in time. Now remember, Charles Valo was shot and killed back in July of 2019, before Laurie's kids went missing and before they were found dead. But Charles still deserved justice. And so even though Laurie is serving these three life sentences, you know, Charles and his family deserve justice. So the of Arizona extradited Lori right after her 2023 trial, and she was brought here to Arizona to face the conspiracy murder charge for her fourth husband, Charles Valo. Charles was shot and killed by Alex Cox, her brother. He admitted to shooting Charles. He claimed it was in self defense. He told police that Charles had come after him with a bat. Now, the family questioned this from the beginning. Charles was a minor league baseball player, and according to the family, if he swun he was gonna connect. And so that's what this trial dealt with. Was that self defense or was it basically an ambush to where they had planned to murder Charles?

[Brad Milke]

Well, obviously the implication is that Laurie was part of the ambush then.

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

Yes, the question was whether Laurie actually conspired with her brother to kill him. So that was basically what the prosecution had to prove, that Laurie was involved and that it was a planned killing. It was.

[Brad Milke]

You were in the courtroom for this?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

I was watching most of it on stream. I did go into the courtroom for one day to just sort of see the color of the courtroom and just kind of get a feel for what the courtroom was like.

[Brad Milke]

What's it like in there? What's Laurie like?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

I suppose it was interesting because even though I had covered this for years, I'd not actually been in the room with Laurie. So when she first entered the courtroom, I was surprised on the charisma that she had. I had heard about it, but there was definitely some charisma. And in this trial, she actually decided to represent herself. In December of 2024, her attorney asked to be removed from the case and Lori asked to represent herself. The judge gave her several warnings. You know, really wanted to make sure. Are you sure about this? Are you sure? But she was determined she was going to take over her own case.

[Brad Milke]

And so how did it go? I guess. How did the trial sort of play out? How did the verdict end up?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

It was interesting to hear everyone's opinion on Lori basically representing herself. I think people Thought it was gonna be more of a train wreck than it was. There were times where she didn't do too bad, and then there were times where, oh, no, her feelings definitely came out. And one of the moments I think everybody will remember about the trial is when Nancy Jo Hancock comes up to testify. And Nancy Jo was someone that Charles Vallow had just. He's separated from Laurie at this time, and he's coming to Arizona to take JJ to school and visit with JJ and so he meets up with her the night before he's murdered. And they have this date. They go to dinner. They get to know each other. Very kind of innocent date. But Laurie turns it into something more. Laurie really goes after Nancy Jo. She keeps using the term my husband. So you went on a date with my husband.

[Brad Milke]

Well, and we actually have audio of this exchange between Lori and Nancy Jo in the courtroom. So Lori's the one asking the questions. Let's take a listen.

[G]

My husband told you that he was going through a divorce. Is that correct?

[Capella University Advertiser]

That's correct.

[G]

And did you have any way to verify that?

[Capella University Advertiser]

No, I didn't try to verify that.

[G]

Okay, so did it surprise you later to find out that we were not in the process of a divorce?

[Capella University Advertiser]

Charles was in the process of a divorce.

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

And she sort of attacked Nancy Jo, saying, like, you know, do you normally do this? Do you normally date married men? And it gets to the point where she says, so you were on this date with my husband where you guys just talked about me all night long. And Nancy Jo replies, don't flatter yourself.

[Capella University Advertiser]

No, we did not spend the whole time talking about you.

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

And that just like. That was, like, the line that everybody will remember from this trial, because she just put Lori in her place.

[Brad Milke]

I was gonna say, at this point, Lori Vallow Daybell is a convicted murderer, convicted of murdering her children with the guy that she ran off with. So I can't imagine how that must have gone over in the courtroom.

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

Well, that's interesting because. Because in the courtroom, the jurors didn't know that. Oh, they were unable to bring that. So the jurors did not know. There was so much they didn't know. I mean, they were literally taken back into time in July of 2019. And so they didn't know that Laurie had been convicted.

[Brad Milke]

I see. Because all this happened before the children were killed anyway.

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

Yes. Yes, I see. They eventually found out in court that Chad and Laurie had married, but they were not aware that they were convicted. They were not aware that JJ was murdered. They were not aware that Tyler was murdered. It isn't until after the verdict, they come out of the courtroom, and one juror said somebody yelled to them, you need to Google. And it's at that point when they're being confronted by reporters that they're learning that Kylie is dead and JJ is dead and Chad's first wife is dead. And one juror told reporters she really wanted to hear from Tylee, but she had no idea why they didn't bring Tylee to the stand to testify. And so they were really, really in the dark. They just were able to base their verdict on text messages. They based it on the police investigation, but they said what weighed heavy for them were the text messages. One particular text message. So in this trial, Trina K. Says the modem is money. And Chad Daybell. That was Lori's motive. She wanted to be with Chad Dabel, but they also wanted money. They wanted Charles Vallow's life insurance.

[Brad Milke]

Oh, like that's the motive that the prosecutors were listing here. It's all about life insurance money.

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

It is, yeah. It's all about the life insurance money. And so there are some text messages that they brought in before the killing where she telling her brother, alex, you know, I need you tonight. We're going to be like Nephi, which is a biblical character in the Book of Mormon that does a murder that is justified by Christ. But many of the jurors say it was the message that was sent to Chad after Charles's death. And in that text message, she's telling Chad she's not going to get the life insurance that Ned. And remember, that was the dark spirit that she would call Charles. Charles was Ned Schneider. That Ned must have changed it before we got rid of him.

[Brad Milke]

Oh, that's the line in the text.

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

Yep, we got rid of him. That's what the jurors said. Convicted her.

[Brad Milke]

Yeah. And by the way, not a long deliberation. It sounded like.

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

No, the total deliberation was about three hours over two days. They got the case very late the day before, and there were a couple of holdouts. They described that there were a couple of jurors that weren't on board. And so they carefully went through the evidence, and soon they were. They were on board. One juror, a male juror who only gave his first name to reporters, had said the day before he wouldn't have convicted her. It wasn't until he saw Trina K's closing arguments where she brought together the whole case, and she showed only the highlights of each testimony. She replayed These in court, only the highlights of each testimony. And suddenly he could see the case. And it was that moment that he realized Laurie was guilty. But had he been asked the day before, he would have said, nope, not guilty. So it was really interesting on how much Trina Kay's closing arguments mattered to them. And Laurie came in and gave her closing argument, and she made it look like the prosecution was holding out. She told them to watch her police interview, watch the whole thing, not just portions of it. And so the jurors did that. And they couldn't see what Lori wanted them to see because what they saw was pretty much what Trina Kay had presented in court.

[Brad Milke]

Well, and so jury finds her guilty, obviously, she's already serving these multiple life sentences without parole in Idaho. Now you tack on another conviction in Arizona. And that's not even the end of the charges facing her in Arizona. Right. What happens next?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

So the next trial deals with her then nephew by marriage, Brandon Boudreau. He was married to her niece, Melanie Boudreau, who's now been remarried. But in October of 2019, Brandon is coming home from the gym and someone takes a shot at him and they miss. The bullet goes into the headrest of his Tesla. And if it wasn't for that, miss, Brandon would have been dead and his life insurance would have gone to his then wife. The divorce was just days from being finalized. And so the motive with Brandon is also life insurance. So prosecutors are going to allege that this was Lori and her brother Alex Cox, again conspiring in order to get Brandon Boudreau's life insurance.

[Brad Milke]

Right. And Melanie, by the way, not implicated in any of the murders. Laurie's brother, Alex cox, died in December 2019 of natural causes. And Laurie's pleaded not guilty to that. So even though she's been convicted of these other things, again, presumption of innocence with that particular case. But at the end of the day, Mary Ellen, I guess what continues to draw you to this? Cause again, there's so many characters, it's so widespread. What sticks out to you about this as to what makes this so unique?

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

It has everything that people are interested in. The sex, the money, the power, the conspiracy secrets. It really is a case that has it all that will draw in the attention of court viewers.

[Brad Milke]

Well, I really appreciate you taking the time and laying all this out for us. Again, so wild that years later, now it's not just the children, it's not just the ex spouses. There's even another alleged victim that, like you said, families still want justice here.

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

That's exactly something that everyone has to kind of remember that while this might be a story to other people, these were lives and family members that people loved, and they were taken away. And this is truly a tragedy for several families involved in this. And it's their real life, unfortunately.

[Brad Milke]

Yeah. Mary Ellen, thank you so much for the time.

[Mary Ellen Resendez Schuizo]

Thank you.

[Brad Milke]

Now let's check in on the other big true crime stories of the week. First up, this week in Paris, one of the most anticipated trials of the year got underway. The alleged robbery, abduction and kidnapping of reality TV star Kim Kardashian back in 2016. You might remember this case. According to police, Kardashian was gagged, tied up and robbed at gunpoint of jewelry worth nearly $9 million. Two defendants have partially confessed to the crime. Some of the other defendants are suspected of providing information about Kardashian's presence in that apartment. Others are accused of playing a role in the resale of the jewelry. These suspects, by the way, were nicknamed the Grandpa Robbers by the French media because they're in their 60s and 70s. And this week we learned from defense attorneys that one of the suspects suspects died earlier this year. His cause of death remains unknown. Kardashian, by the way, is expected to testify in person at this trial, which is scheduled to go through late May. Next up, a new development in the Sean Combs case. A federal judge in New York decided that the Cassie video will be admissible in the upcoming sex trafficking and racketeering trial. You might remember this from our own Brian Buckmire describing it last week. The video shows Combs kicking and dragging his then girlfriend, Cassie ventura in an LA hotel in 2016. The defense argued that the video, which was first obtained by cnn, was manipulated. CNN denies this. Combs has pleaded not guilty to all charges. Lastly, a Missouri firefighter and paramedic was allegedly stabbed to death on his way to the hospital. According to Kansas City officials, Graham Hoffman was stabbed in the chest by a patient he was transporting during an otherwise routine medical call. Hoffman had been with the Kansas City fire department since 2022. Officials say the suspect is in custody, but haven't provided further details. All right, that will do it for this week's episode of the Crime Scene. Thank you so much for being with us. The Crime Scene Weekly is a production of ABC Audio, produced by Nora Richie. Our supervising producer is Susie Luke. Mixing by Shane McKeon. Special thanks to Liz Alessi, Tara Gimble and Emily Shutz. Josh Cohan is our director of podcast programming. Laura Mayer is our executive producer. I'm Brad Milke, and I'll see you next week at the crime scene.

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