Trump Slams Jacob Frey for "Playing With Fire" for Refusing To Enforce Law: Is "Deescalation" Over?

Summary

The Morning Meeting — Trump Slams Jacob Frey for "Playing With Fire" for Refusing To Enforce Law: Is "Deescalation" Over?

Podcast: The Morning Meeting
Host: Mark Halperin (2WAY)
Guests: Hogan Gidley (former White House deputy spokesperson), Kevin (Democratic strategist)
Date: January 28, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode, hosted by Mark Halperin and joined by Hogan Gidley and Kevin, dives into the latest developments out of Minnesota, focusing on President Trump's fiery comments toward Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey over the enforcement of immigration law and the broader debate about federal-local cooperation and "deescalation." The conversation weaves through inside administration finger-pointing, upcoming political and economic storylines (including the Fed chair appointment), and lively audience Q&A around the shifting political landscape, especially on immigration and economic messaging ahead of the 2028 midterms.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Minnesota Situation: Federal vs. Local Authority

Background:
Federal official Tom Homan is dispatched to Minnesota to address escalating tensions regarding ICE enforcement, local cooperation, and protests, with attention on Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey's refusal to fully enforce federal immigration law.

Key Points:

• Trump’s Response: On Truth Social, Trump chastises Mayor Frey for refusing to enforce federal law, calling it a "serious violation" and warning he's "playing with fire." (16:00)
  • "Surprisingly, Mayor Jacob Fry just stated that, quote, Minneapolis does not and will not enforce federal immigration laws...he's playing with fire." — Trump via Mark Halperin (16:00)
• Deescalation Attempts: Tom Homan, praised for his bipartisan bona fides, attempts de-escalation and cooperation with state/local officials.
  • Hogan Gidley sees Homan's presence and reputation as potentially constructive but doubts a major breakthrough:
  • "Tom going up there, having that knowledge, I think the breadth and depth of what he's been able to do in a career will be very helpful to the situation...But for the mayor to stand up against that I think is really quite foolish." — Hogan (11:54)
• Political Calculus:
  • Both guests express skepticism that the mayor's stance will lead to a productive deal, noting both sides may be posturing for their political bases.

Memorable Moment:
Hogan draws a parallel between the situation and partisan retrenchment:
"Both Republicans and Democrats have a tendency to take information and think it gives them carte blanche to swing way too far to one side or the other." — Hogan (12:09)

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2. Administration Infighting: Blame and Communication Breakdown

Background:
Recent controversy erupted over public statements after a shooting incident involving federal agents; finger-pointing ensues between the White House, DHS, Kristi Noem, and advisor Stephen Miller.

Key Points:

• Stephen Miller's Role:
  • Miller admits passing information leading to controversial statements by Kristi Noem. Noem, in turn, claims she’s acting at the direction of Trump and Miller.
  • "That's an extraordinary statement...She's taking orders from a deputy chief of staff." — Kevin (19:30)
• Unusual Cabinet Dynamics:
  • Mark and Kevin highlight the centralization of power around Miller, surpassing the usual reach of a deputy chief of staff.
  • "There are all these articles about how powerful Stephen is. They understate the case." — Mark (19:40)
• Outcome:
  • Despite GOP outcry, all agree Kristi Noem will remain Secretary of DHS. (18:12)

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3. Democratic Messaging: Immigration Framed as an "Accountability Crisis"

Background:
Montage of Democratic messaging conflating the border/immigration debate with economic affordability and government accountability.

Segment: Senator Alsobrooks (21:06)

• Quote:
  "There is an affordability crisis...but we're also seeing a horrific accountability crisis at the same time...No, not another penny for this murderous organization [DHS]." — Sen. Alsobrooks (21:06)
• Response:
  • Kevin critiques Senator Alsobrooks' harsh language, calling it unhelpful and excessive. (22:17)
  • "I disagree wholeheartedly with her language in terms of a murderous regime...doesn't serve our interest well as Democrats and as a party and frankly as Americans." — Kevin (22:17)

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4. The Fed Chair Sweepstakes: Inside the Decision Process

Background:
Speculation over President Trump's pick for the next Federal Reserve chair, with conflicting priorities between political loyalty and financial acumen.

Key Points:

• Four "finalists" named, but none seem to reconcile Trump’s desire for loyalty with economic credibility.
• BlackRock’s Rick Rieder emerges as a dark horse; opposition research notes his past donations to Nikki Haley and Pete Buttigieg, which may hurt his chances with Trump.
  • "You think Donald Trump is going to trust the person to be Fed chair, someone who gave money to those two? I don't know. I doubt it." — Mark (24:00)
• Kevin and Hogan agree the ultimate pick may be a "door number five" surprise, not currently named. (25:57)
  • "I'm gonna take you and your door number five...the jockeying on the front end by people who say they don't want the job, then doing some opposition research...is always fascinating to me." — Hogan (25:14)

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5. Political Messaging & Media Coverage Tensions

Background:
Trump remains frustrated by the lack of media coverage when he stays on economic message, while negative or off-message comments grab headlines.

Data Point:

• Consumer confidence drops to its lowest since 2014 (29:20)
  • "It's hard to understand why people would think...But it's grim for the president and for Scott Bessant." — Mark (29:20)
• White House official Scott Bessant remains optimistic about economic recovery, pointing to upcoming tax rebates and wage increases. (30:12)

Messaging Dilemma:

• Hogan counsels that Trump should acknowledge voters’ struggles rather than only crow about gains, referencing the effectiveness of Bill Clinton's "I feel your pain" approach. (34:12)
  • "You need to let them know, here's where we were, here's where we are now...But the Bill Clinton ubiquitous, I feel your pain should be part of that, I believe as well." — Hogan (34:12)
• Kevin doubts whether Trump is capable of such empathy, noting his default to cheerleading. (34:44)

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6. Iran Crisis: Rhetoric Escalates

Background:
Trump signals military readiness toward Iran, citing both a potential nuclear threat and regime violence against protesters.

Key Points:

• President’s Post:
  "A massive armada...is headed to Iran...ready, willing and able to rapidly fulfill its mission with speed and violence if necessary. Hopefully, Iran will quickly come to the table...Time is running out." — Donald Trump, via Mark (38:00)
• Kevin and Hogan agree a strike is highly likely, given the regime’s weakness and reported atrocities against protesters. (38:23–40:02)
• Mark questions the strategic shift in Trump's messaging from support for protesters to focus on nuclear capability; Hogan sees this as an all-encompassing threat.

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7. Audience Questions & Shifting Party Lines (Q&A)

Deborah from NYC: When and why did Democrats shift their tone on immigration?

• Kevin: Trump’s hardline rhetoric in 2016 "radicalized" Democratic pushback, breaking a previous bipartisan consensus. (45:32)
• Hogan: Language has softened ("undocumented" vs. "illegal aliens"), and political opportunism plus GOP "sanctuary" stunts accelerated the shift. Reagan's era amnesty also returns as a reference point.
  • "They've kind of made language much softer on the issue...I would argue too, in the last several campaigns...comprehensive immigration reform became a complete negative." — Hogan (46:55)

Colin from Mississippi: Is the Waltz-Trump agreement just a return to the status quo?

• Mark: Depends on whether local authorities actually cooperate in any new, substantive way. (51:48)
• Hogan: The real problem is with city/county, not state, level enforcement. True status quo isn’t sufficient if local officials still refuse to hold for ICE. (53:00)
  • "I would argue it's on purpose, by design, not by accident." — Hogan (53:00)

Steve from Charleston: What’s actually changed about ICE enforcement?

• Mark: More agents, reduced training, and a more aggressive posture deploying agents in blue cities without local collaboration. Obama deported many, but the tactics were different. (60:51)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The finger pointing is as extensive as a bunch of third graders after someone farted." — Mark (1:09)
• "Is there something between bull and bear?...Maybe minotaur." — Hogan (10:11-10:15)
• "You think Donald Trump is going to trust the person to be Fed chair, someone who gave money to Nikki Haley and Pete Buttigieg? I don't know. I doubt it." — Mark (24:00)
• "The language has gotten much softer on the issue as opposed to exactly what they are, illegal aliens as defined by law." — Hogan (46:55)
• On empathy in messaging:
  "He's more of a, look, it was rough, but he would say something like, Joe Biden ruined your lives...He'll remind you who caused that pain, as opposed to him saying… 'I feel your pain.'" — Hogan (34:44)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Introduction & Daybook: 02:00–09:00
• Minnesota/Deescalation Discussion: 10:00–16:00
• Trump's Truth Social Post Reaction: 16:00–18:00
• Infighting in Administration: 18:00–20:00
• Sen. Alsobrooks Messaging Clip: 21:06–22:44
• The Fed Chair Speculation: 23:04–26:34
• Consumer Confidence & Media Coverage: 29:20–36:08
• Iran Elections/Strike Prospects: 38:00–41:11
• Audience Q&A: Immigration Shift: 45:29–49:12
• Audience Q&A: Minnesota Status Quo: 50:05–55:32
• Audience Q&A: ICE Enforcement Changes: 59:48–61:45

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Tone & Atmosphere

The episode is lively and irreverent, with the hosts bantering and ribbing each other between topics, yet the conversation stays grounded in real policy debate and political analysis. Hogan’s right-of-center pragmatism balances Kevin’s moderate Democratic perspective, with Mark Halperin steering the discussion and injecting moments of humor and sharp political observation.

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Summary

For listeners, this episode offers a dynamic, fast-moving tour of the day’s biggest stories, with sharp insights into the political mechanics around immigration enforcement, the mysteries of Trump’s personnel moves, and the formidable challenges of political messaging in turbulent times. The hosts don’t shy away from calling out both sides’ excesses, and the open Q&A delivers informed perspective on how— and why— party lines and public narratives have shifted over the last decades.

Transcript

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[Mark]

Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Foreign. Welcome in everybody. Thank you for joining the morning meeting here on two way. Honored, delighted, pleased, privileged, excited to be joined today by two of our favorite guest co hosts. And when I say amongst our favorites, they're both in the top 10. Hogan Gidley, former chief deputy spokesperson under Sarah Huckabee Sanders at the White house. Go on YouTube, go on C Span. You'll see Hogan regularly was at this podium briefing and Hogan was the master of the favorite thing. White House briefers say I will not from this podium. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Never really understood that, but I always liked it.

[Hogan]

That's not the favorite thing we say.

[Mark]

What's the favorite thing? I'll take the question. Let me circle back with you.

[Hogan]

I'll have to refer you to the Department of filling.

[Mark]

Take this, take that to the Department of Defense. They'll fill you in there. And then when you call the department.

[Kevin]

For this microphone, he's paying for this microphone.

[Mark]

Then they called it up. Then they called the Department of Defense and they say, I'll refer you to the White House for anything on that. And I'll. I'm going to resist the urge to tell my favorite Ari Fleischer story. Maybe, maybe I'll tell it someday again. Tell it. Told it 40 times on two way. Kevin, welcome and thank you for being here. Kevin. Kevin is a man of the south and the North.

[Kevin]

Cover all bases.

[Mark]

Covers all bases. And tell name some of the Democratic politicians you've worked for.

[Kevin]

Kevin ran Doug Gansler's campaign to be the attorney general. Worked for Jake Akinclass, a famous guy coming up in Massachusetts. Dems up up and down the in the board.

[Mark]

Yeah. Well, thank you both for being here. Ladies and gentlemen, today's episode we'll talk a lot about Minnesota as we have all week. And there's some new plot lines, some new story developments. There's some about the fabric of America. I see a reawakening of the all these Silicon Valley woke employees who terrorized their bosses for many, many years and demanded they be woke. The disappeared after Donald Trump won reelection. And it's been a great imponderable to me where did those people go? They used to run Silicon Valley and all of a sudden they just laid down their arms. Well, they're back over Minnesota and we've seen some Silicon Valley bigwigs have to bow to the to the woke. An interesting development. That's one example on the inside baseball, the finger pointing in in, in within the administration over who did what is the finger pointing is extensive as a, a bunch of third graders after someone farted. How's that for a metaphor? And, and but there's other stories we're going to cover today as well outside of Minnesota. The Fed Wall Street Journal finally caught up to my reporting on the president's thinking about who to pick as Fed chair and could be a war in Iran. The president on Truth Social this morning. Going to talk to you a little bit about AI 2028 and Barry Weiss and CBS. All topics we hope to get to but we'll see what the level of interest is on Minnesota between Kevin and Hogan as well as as you so we'll see what happens. But I do want to try to get to some other stories today for the for the sake of of important things are happening, ladies and gentlemen, out in the world. All right. Let's go through the daybook real quick. And then and then we'll get we'll get going with everybody. Melania Trump. We'll start with the first lady ringing the opening bell in 27 minutes down downtown here. And we'll we'll take that live. Probably this of course pegged to her new film documentary about her coming out on Friday already screened at the White House and screenings beginning in the coming days as well. The president himself big event at the White House today on the Trump accounts. Second day in a row. The President in theory, focusing on the economy. Then he's a private meeting with auto workers at 3 and then a policy meeting at 5. The Vice President in his role as the finance chair of the RNC. One of the great undercovered stories about 2028 is headed to Florida where he'll do RNC events in Naples and Miami and raise, as they say, serious coin on behalf of the Republican Party and rub elbows with a lot of rich people. Scott Bessant's joining the president at that Trump account launch at 8:30 this morning. It's, it's an all day thing before the president speaks and after.

[Hogan]

I'll be there, by the way.

[Mark]

Oh, you will. What are you going for? Just to hang out. You have a role, man.

[Hogan]

It's my people.

[Mark]

Okay, but I mean, are you an invited guest? Are you a presenter or.

[Hogan]

I'm an invited guest, but the speaker's going this afternoon, so I was kind of dealing with that. But then also do some work with Scott and their team. I was just heading over there.

[Mark]

Yeah. So a lot of Hogan's clients, including the two most powerful people in America. The Treasury Secretary, he's not a client, he's a volunteer. You're a volunteer.

[Hogan]

And the speaker, he's a South Carolinian, which of course Kevin can appreciate.

[Kevin]

Rachel Charleston. Yeah, Charlestonian. Are you getting one of those Trump accounts? Are you somehow getting one of those?

[Hogan]

I think I'm timed out.

[Mark]

You're so boy. You're so boyish. You probably qualify. You're going to change your clothes before you go over that, right?

[Hogan]

Probably.

[Mark]

Okay.

[Hogan]

Because I think, I think I built enough cred in the, in the fashion space to just do what I want.

[Mark]

I hear you. Is, is, is Cowboy one of the Village People? Is that, is that one of them? I don't think so. There's construction.

[Hogan]

Indian.

[Mark]

Indian, construction worker, Navy guy.

[Kevin]

And then I don't know what the four.

[Mark]

I don't think there's Cowboy anyway. Marco Rubio. There is a cowboy. All right. How can go. It's a Village People. Thank you. Marco Rubio is on Capitol Hill today. Hasn't testified before the Senate, maybe not even the House, but he hasn't been on the Hill in front of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. In, in a minute, I think since the last spring, practically a year. So he's testifying and he will face all manner of questions. A focus will be on Venezuela. His prepared remarks say that the president's prepared to again use military force if the Venezuelan government steps out of line with American wishes. But he'll, he'll get questions on Iran and all manner of things. So that'll be interesting to see. We'll see how he does. And of course, the Senate is still grappling with how to avoid a government partial government shutdown. Senator Thune is still hoping to work out his side deal. Democrats are quite determined to have, have this be codified within the spending bill. And of course, if that happens, then there's worry that the House won't be back in time or ever be able to pass that bill. So we, so we shall see. And of course, Jerome Powell, the Fed announces its rate decision at two widely expected, widely expected. And I got to say, in the world of anticipating the Fed's decisions, the widely expected is almost always correct. There's almost never a surprise about how much of a cut or how much of an increase widely expected to have no change. Maybe that's because the Fed PR people call all the financial folks and say, here's what's going to happen. I don't know. But in any event, that's at 2:30 after the announcement. At 2, the Fed chair has his first press conference since he made that video defiant video saying the president was prosecuting him for his, his policy views. And we'll see what, what kind of mood the Fed chair is in today. This is the Wall Street Journal reports the president's unhappy with his four finalists. And, and I say finalists because I still think it's going to be somebody else hopefully will be able to talk about that. All right, a quick word from a sponsor and then we're going to dig into Minnesota. And our first sponsor is our Friends at Cozy Earth. Someone came on the program last night and said they bought the Cozy Earth sheets and they're like, mark, these are the best sheets I've ever had. And of course, my reaction to that was buy the pants. And, and take advantage of the fresh offer from our Friends at Cozy Earth, available to you viewers and listeners of this program. The two for one deal. Buy one, get one free. The bamboo pajama set available now was sold out. Available again. Act quickly before Kevin buys them all. Kevin's kind of a bag. Got a, got a pajama fetish.

[Kevin]

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[Mark]

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[Mark]

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[Hogan]

Is there something between bull and bear?

[Mark]

Maybe Minotaur, I don't know. I hear you.

[Hogan]

Minotaur.

[Kevin]

How's that?

[Hogan]

Listen, I was texting with Tom Holman on his while he was on his way up there. I think that was. The timing was right about some things. And I really like Tom, always have. I always found him to be someone who had a ton of institutional knowledge, but also, you know, a pragmatic player in Washington, D.C. having worked for both Republican and Democrat presidents. Famously, Barack Obama gave him an award for all the deportations he did under his administration. George Bush, all these folks who are doing these deportations, no riots to speak of on their watch, of course. So Tom going up there, having that knowledge, I think the breadth and depth of what he's been able to do in a career will be very helpful to the situation. What I was sad to see was, and I think we were talking about one of these elements before was Tom is up there and basically said, look, I met with the mayor, I met with Walt. We need to work together. And kind of brought that down. We're going to follow the law, we're going to enforce law. We need to work together. And then Jacob Fry comes out and says, we're not doing that. We're not following the law. Again, I think both Republicans and Democrats have a tendency to take information and think it gives them carte blanche to swing way too far to one side or the other. And I think the mayor may have just done that because it's obvious the Trump administration, led now by Christian Noem and Tom Holman on the ground there, are going to try and bring this to a close and have something reasonable and rational happen. For the mayor to stand up against that I think is really quite foolish.

[Mark]

Okay. So I appreciate all that and of course, great to hear about your comms with him. Do you think he'll succeed? I know, I know you're currently not bullish on the mayor's participation, but do you think by the time Tom Homan leaves Minnesota, I don't know how long he's going to stay, that there'll be a working relationship between state, county, local, city?

[Hogan]

To some degree. Yeah.

[Mark]

To some degree. Okay. Kevin. Yeah.

[Kevin]

I mean, I think to Hogan's point, no one really knew of Tom Homan as a bureaucrat. Right. And he spent his career working in Immigration and Border for the last 25 years, 30 years. Only recently has he become a well known name, obviously being more on a fixture on Fox News. So he comes at it from a bureaucrat government efficiency standpoint. I think he's the right person to do it. I think you've already seen, you know, it's being characterized as a concession of the president pulling back Bovino and drawing down some of the forces there. But to Hogan's point, I hope cooler heads will prevail and you know, you're getting some concessions from this administration. There's obviously it's playing out in real time on the Hill in the backdrop of this funding debate and meet the administration where they're at. Right, right. And let's not fan the flames. And I think it does not serve the people of Minnesota well to see the mayor out there. You also, we saw last night Ilhan Omer, one of the congressmen from Minneapolis, was involved in some altercation, some attack from a constituent. And that also doesn't, you know, help tamp down relations on the ground because again, to Hogan's point, we all retreat to our sides when we actually need cooler heads to prevail. As Marcus said from the beginning, take one breath and take four more breaths to make it happen.

[Hogan]

Can I say something real quick about that attack on Ilhan Omar, the whatever they, whatever liquid that was in my naivete, probably in 2012, let's say somewhere in there when I was doing comms, Rick Santorum and he was kind of gaining speed around Iowa, I remember someone coming up and threw what was a glitter bomb at the time, threw glitter all over him in protest of his stance on gay marriage. In essence.

[Kevin]

They never caught me, Hogan. They never caught me. Are dangerous. They tried.

[Hogan]

They tried.

[Mark]

Ran right at the back of the pizza rings.

[Kevin]

We're out outside the statute of limitations on that.

[Hogan]

They tackled the guy you know, like, with force, obviously handcuffed him, took him away. And I went over the guy, I said, listen, is that really, like, a necessary thing? Like, he just threw glitter. And they said, that's the problem. You don't know what's in that cup. It could be acid. It could be any type of powder that's illegal. That would cause some type of. You know, it could be a drug. It could be whatever it is. And so when I saw that, I thought, see, that is not a good place because you never know what's in that. So when people say, why is there so much force done with that? That's why. Because you don't know what's in that cup and you don't give them a chance to do it twice. If that makes any sense.

[Mark]

Yeah, it does. And glad she's okay. Hope we get to the bottom of the motive of that person. And really unhelpful, to say the least, for the president to mock it. The president should not have mocked at. Hogan. Was your agreeing with me that the president should not have mocked her being.

[Hogan]

I didn't see him. I didn't see that mock. I didn't see that.

[Mark]

Well, who are you? Who are you? Mike Johnson. I'll tell you what he said. He said, I haven't seen. The president said, Bryce Johnson. Every time you ask him about something the president did that was outrageous, Mike Johnson said, well, I didn't see it. Here's what he did. Okay, but. But then the reporters tell him what happened.

[Hogan]

He's commenting on everything the president did. You'd be like, does this guy ever work? He need the speaker.

[Mark]

All right, I'm moving on. Here's what the president said on Truth Social this morning. He had a little. A triptych of Truth Social Post. Here's what he said about Mayor Fry. 122. No, not this one. This is about the massive armada. Here we go. Surprisingly, Mayor Jacob Fry just stated that, quote, Minneapolis does not and will not enforce federal immigration laws. This is after having had a very good conversation with him, meaning Homan. Could somebody in his inner sanctum please explain that this statement is a very serious violation of law and that he's playing with fire. I'm no Henry Kissinger, but I could go up there and. Or Richard Holbrook. But I could go up there and negotiate this deal in about 10 minutes. So I'm presuming Tom Homan could as well. All right, Lots.

[Kevin]

Or a Morton Halperin Or Morton Halbren.

[Mark]

Or Morton Halperin. Sure. Lots of infighting within the administration. And we're seeing some uncharacteristic things, uh, that we haven't seen. There's been a lot of behind the scenes sniping within, uh, between the White House and Homeland Security in the different parts of the Homeland Security. Our friend Eric Erickson, regular guest host here. Very a good summary here from his substack. Stephen Miller now admits he gave the information to Kristi Noem that caused her to call Pretty a domestic terrorist. But everyone now claims that information came from the Border Patrol on the ground, meaning Bovino. Likewise, Miller claims the Border Patrol failed to follow protocol with some agents arresting illegals and others holding back the protesters. So Stephen Miller went on the record with a number of news organizations. Axios has words from Secretary Noem via someone else saying what I reported yesterday here and on the Daily Mail, that Miller and others at the White House approved everything that she said in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. So you've got Noem pointing fingers at Miller, Miller pointing fingers at DHS and saying, what is this? Is, I think, lost in the inside baseball. Miller, if this was the product, if this is the protocol, it should be. We've all said whether, if the local police are not going to protect these operations and keep people back, then DHS has to do it itself. And they should, because it's not fair to the officers to be trying to do their job and protect themselves and do crowd control. So I believe, based on my reporting, that the Secretary is not going anywhere. Senator Murkowski and, and Senator Fetterman and Senator Tillis all have called for the Secretary to go. Other Republicans, senators have said negative things. But you'll recall during the most the Biden administration, Republican senators called for the Secretary of Homeland Security to go and he, he never went. So one word answer. Will Kristi Noem be the Secretary of Homeland Security on June 1st? Kevin?

[Kevin]

Yes.

[Mark]

Hogan.

[Hogan]

Yes.

[Mark]

Yes. Okay, we're all in agreement there. What is Stephen doing? Hogan, why is Stephen on the. Why is he saying publicly second guessing the, the conduct of folks there? Is it? Is it. I mean, I can't even theorize. Why is he on the record saying Homeland Security didn't do what they were supposed to do and we're looking into it?

[Hogan]

I don't know. I mean, look, as everyone here knows, Steven's one of my friends. I was in his wedding, for heaven's sakes. But I don't know any of the ins and outs of this. I've not been tracking the palace intrigue. I'm Trying to be focused more on the policy and how they fix things in Minneapolis, which I think they are as well. Inevitably, along the way, there'll be some. Some, you know, deviations in messaging from different people. When you're, when you're allowing so many people to go out there and have those conversations and go on camera, that inevitably is part of it. The fact that you can hopefully minimalize that in the future allows you to kind of drill down on what's at stake and when PRBL battles and messaging wars in a better way. But, I mean, you know, I don't think people care about it too much. I think they're worried about what's going on the ground there.

[Mark]

All right, we could talk about this. We're going to move on.

[Kevin]

Because I want to say one extraordinary thing, though, Mark, that you just mentioned is that that quote that Kristi Noem authorized to be released, everything I've done, it's been at the direction of the President and Stephen.

[Mark]

Yes, right.

[Kevin]

She's a cabinet secretary. He's a deputy White House chief of staff. That's an extraordinary statement.

[Mark]

It is.

[Kevin]

She's taking orders from a deputy chief of staff.

[Mark]

Well, yes, and it's factually true, according to my reporting. There are all these articles about how powerful Stephen is. They understate the case. Steve is immensely powerful on a range of issues, including foreign policy issues.

[Kevin]

All right, again, piece that you wrote was so interesting in that Oval Office interaction was fascinating, Mark, to your point.

[Mark]

Thank you, sir. Daily Mail, by the way, but thank you, Daily Mail.

[Kevin]

Sorry.

[Mark]

That's okay. That's all right. Raise your hands if you want to talk about this topic when we get to you, Community. Certainly we can, but let's talk about some other stuff. Well, one more on this is. Is the shutdown. There still could be a partial government shutdown. There's no one. You. You could talk to every source on the Hill, including the leadership in the White House. Nobody knows how this is going to end. It's still very complex. But Democrats are as fired up, remain as fired up as they've been about any issue. And yet there's a debate within the Democratic Party, which is do we want to be talking about this into the midterms, or do we want to be talking about affordability with. With consumer confidence at an extraordinary low? Here is the new senator from Maryland, Senator also Brooks on Morning Joe. And watch this. Watch this very, uh, uh, clever, uh, comms messaging, uh, where she fuses, uh, the affordability issue with, uh, the immigration issue by turning Immigration into the other a word, accountability.

[Deborah]

That these Republicans have already superfunded DHS at a tune of $75 billion. And what we know now is that our country is not only in a moral crisis, but we have a double crisis going. There is an affordability crisis that is happening, but we're also seeing a horrific accountability crisis that is happening at the same time. So no, not another penny for this murderous organization to move forward. And what we have seen is that Americans are asking the question, why can't I afford health care? And if you're wondering that we only have to turn on the television now to see how our dollars have been misappropriated to fund this organization that is ill trained and that is terrorizing and killing Americans on American streets. It's horrific what we've seen. And so not another penny. But you're right, we should level set. $75 billion already has been appropriated and has been passed by these Republicans and that and that big beautiful bill and, and so. But why should we put another penny toward this organization?

[Mark]

Kevin, how do you rate that messaging? Is that, is that something Democrats can and should sustain, that there's some connection between affordability and the conduct of dhs?

[Kevin]

I mean, it's an important pivot, right. We're going to win on the economy in the midterm. So you know, it's an interesting element that Senator also Brooks did there. I disagree wholeheartedly with her, her language in terms of a murderous regime and things like that. I don't think that is, is going to serve our interest well as Democrats and as a party and frankly as Americans.

[Hogan]

All right, the Fed swinging too far, as I just said, murderous organization.

[Mark]

She said, yeah, okay, yeah, I knew, I knew what you would say on it. So I didn't even bother.

[Hogan]

Well, by the way, even on that.

[Mark]

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

[Hogan]

Also, did you notice her, her pivot to health care is not affordable. I was told that Obamacare was going to fix all of this, so that's fascinating. We're still having a conversation about health care, but I digress. Go to the next topic.

[Mark]

I hear you. All right. The Fed Wall Street Journal story today, as I said before, just because I can't help but take credit, says what's been true for a long time. The president wants someone who will do what he, who he'll be confident will do his bidding on interest rates. And Scott Besson wants someone who is clearly qualified for the job and will have credibility in the country and around the world. The four people, none of the people on the current list of the so called four finalists, the two Kevin's, Mr. Ryder or what's that fourth guy's name at the Fed. I can never remember that guy's name. What's the guy's name?

[Kevin]

Kevin.

[Mark]

And it's the guy who's at the Fed. Whatever. I don't think he's going to be picked anyway. None of them, none of them meet. And the Journal story makes that clear. Right now if you were looking at the financial community on X, the person you'd say was the front runner would be Rick Wright. Rick Ryder. Here's a, here's a profile of him in Fortune, says he sleeps a maximum of four hours a night. Colleagues say you can expect emails from him as early as 3am or as late as 11pm no matter how early they came to the office, Ryder was always there earlier and no matter how late they stayed, he was still there. Trump, Trump loves that. Trump loves somebody who's working his hours. But Team Warsh is going hard after him with opposition research, pointing out again and again he gave money to Nikki Haley and Pete Buttigieg. You think Donald Trump is going to trust the person to be Fed chair, someone who gave money to those two? I don't know. I doubt it. And, and on the other hand, he lived in this Admiral's cove. Do you guys know Admiral's Cove? You know what that is? Fancy community. Kevin, you. And I don't know what it is because it's fancy, but Hogan does. It's a fancy gated community in South Florida where writers had a home and where Don Junior's had a home. And I'm told they're pretty friendly. And some sources are telling me Don Jr. Is pushing for him. So who will it be? Will it be one of those four? Or it be Halperin's long touted door number five, Someone not on the list of four?

[Hogan]

Hogan, I don't know, man. You ask this question like every time I'm here, every.

[Mark]

I do, I do what I will do. There's great interest in who the Fed chair is going to be.

[Hogan]

I agree. I'm going to take you though, and your door number five. I will say one thing about this. Having been a Sherpa for a lot of these secretaries and helping them get through the Senate confirmation process, the jockeying on the front end by people who say they don't want the job, then doing some opposition research and leaking bad stories about other names being floated for the same job is always fascinating to me. And this is a Great example of that.

[Mark]

And. And Trump doesn't like that either, by the way, typically, unless Loomer brings it in. But, I mean, is Hogan, Is President Trump going to pick someone to be Fed Chair who gave money to Nikki Haley? No, I don't think so.

[Hogan]

I. I don't. At the end of the day, I just. I don't know.

[Mark]

All right, Kevin. Kevin, you got a feeling of who it's going to be?

[Kevin]

I mean, I think it's door number five. I'm putting it January 28th.

[Hogan]

Right.

[Kevin]

The point comes up in June or May. Or May or June, I think, is when Jerome Powell's term is up. I'm saying, you know, Scott Besson has said no quite a bit. I think he may call Rove this entire situation and come in.

[Mark]

You mean Dick Cheney? You mean Dick Cheney.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Mark]

He doesn't want. He doesn't want it. I don't think. I don't think he's bound.

[Kevin]

Or number five, he wants five months from now to be Fed Chair. And your legacy extends well beyond Trump.

[Mark]

I want to. I want to move on.

[Kevin]

Don't want to do is take a.

[Hogan]

Position that demands you say no to the president quite regularly. That's a position that you'd have to say no to.

[Mark]

Switch over to Morning Joe. Josh Shapiro is on. Let's flip over to that. We got Melania in five minutes, too. But I just want to hear. What he's saying. Has been sounding off and being heard. It is clear that the President, United States, while he hasn't changed the core mission or his directive to those federal agents, he is obviously hearing from the people. The people need to continue to peacefully protest and be heard. The mission's compromised and it needs to end immediately. So, Governor, the Puck news turned to obtain a private polling which suggested that your rhetoric, your messaging about ICE actually tops Democrats.

[Hogan]

We'll come. Well, we'll monitor this.

[Mark]

I just want to read you before we move on from the Fed. You know I mentioned. I mentioned Admiral's Cove, right? I hadn't heard of it till a few weeks ago, or a few days ago, rather. This most ridiculous text I've gotten. At least today. Do you have a place in Admiral's Cove? Someone told me there's a picture of you in the resident directory. Let me just go on the record. Not only do I not own a place in Admiral's Cove, I. I've never been there. I. I couldn't find it on a map. But thank you for asking. And if you've got a picture of me in the directory, please send it my way.

[Hogan]

All right.

[Mark]

So when I used to cover presidential campaigns day to day, if the candidate gave his or her stump speech, same every time with message discipline, there were political reporters would all be bored. They'd say to their editors, there's no news today, so you get no coverage. Right. But then if you deviated from your stump speech, they'd say you've got no message discipline. That's true of every candidate. Donald Trump has a special place in this dynamic because if he goes to Iowa and he stays largely on message, which he did yesterday, now, there were digressions, but he mostly talked about affordability, talked about his record on the economy, talked about other things he wants to do. And then towards the end of the speech, he did other stuff. It gets almost no coverage. Fox cut away from it. Fox was covering it live. Now, if he had spent the whole speech attacking the squad and, and, you know, talking about Iran, that they probably would have stayed with it and he probably would have gotten more coverage in the news today. So this is kind of quandary. And at the same time, if you look at all the data, the president is not winning the messaging wars. They have this big event at the White House today to talk about the economy and these Trump accounts. But look at the new number on consumer confidence. This is kind of startling for those in the White House who thinks everything's going to be fine. This is number 113, please. Lowest level of consumer confidence in what is it, a decade? I think it's a decade lower than during COVID 14.

[Kevin]

I think.

[Mark]

Yeah, that's like a decade lower. The 2014 lower than during COVID America's confidence in the US economy falls sharply in January to lowest level since 2014. I have to tell you, ladies and gentlemen, it's hard to understand why people would think that we can theorize all we want. Is it, is it AI. I don't know what it is, but. But it's grim for the president and for Scott Bessant. So here's Scott Bessant, Mr. Sunny, Mr. Optimistic, Mr. It's all going to work out. We've set the table in 2026 is the year of the buffet here. Here he is talking to Fox News about his view of turning things around on consumer confidence. This is number 119, please.

[Deborah]

But consumer confidence is pretty low right now. Do you think we're going to see those numbers turn around when people start getting those refund checks back?

[Kevin]

Well, I think we are. And in my private investment career for 35 years. I always learned to be skeptical of the numbers when so that's a sentiment survey. What people are actually doing is more important. So we're actually seeing consumer spending quite strong, job growth in is quite strong. So I think we will see the survey numbers start picking up. I think 2026 going to be a great year. I'm also the IRS commissioner so I can see that we're probably going to have between another 150 billion of refunds. A lot of that going to working families Based on the President's signature policies. No tax and tips, no tax and overtime, no tax and Social Security deductibility of auto loans for American made cars. So it's going to be a big refund season. Working Americans will reset their withholding and I tell everyone do have a look at your withholding. So that will give you a weekly fill up or monthly fill up in wages. So I think we are containing costs but more importantly we're going to see real wage gains for working Americans.

[Mark]

Okay now one more element 112 please. The FT says that the. Oh you can put up Melania. We'll just watch it. I don't know that we need the audio. Just leave the picture up. For those on watching listening on the podcast, there's Melania Trump on the familiar location with great branding behind her for her film. Do they always have that branding behind the people when they do ring the bell to. They do with corporate.

[Kevin]

Yeah, corporate.

[Mark]

Corporate logos always back there. All right, anyway she's ringing the bell, opening bell down on Wall street there. FT says I guess we can't put this up. I'll just read it. Investors are betting on a hot US Economy head into the midterm elections. There it is. Investors bet on high US Economy head into elections. Stocks rise with inflation expectations as fund managers anticipate more stimulus despite strong growth. Now that's separate from what the Fed's going to do. And of course the dollar is very weak. Now the President yesterday did not talk up the dollar, quite the contrary. Unlike what most presidents do. That's not messaging for the general public who doesn't much care about the value of the dollar. But in the financial world that's a big deal. So Hogan, you first. There's these two elements, right? There's the question of how the president messages and if he goes out and talks about the economy, the press doesn't cover it. So it's a tree for tree falling in the woods. And at the same time the White House can't look at that January consumer confidence number and be pleased that they're on track. So I put all that in the blender. And what do you get?

[Hogan]

Well, real quickly, having, you know, done comms for Rick Santorum and Mike Huckabee, I would always find it fascinating at the back of the room, as you said, when we do joint appearances with other candidates, Romney, for example, I mean, the reporters just sitting there bored out of their minds, just like typing away, talking to each other. And then when like Huckabee would get up and speak or Rick Santorum, they look like cracked out, you know, meth heads, because they never knew what was coming. They were always worried and harried, kind of get through it because they never stayed on message. It was always a different speed time. But, but as far as this is concerned, listen, I think you got to be careful here because you don't want to message something that's antithetical to what the people are feeling. I think this is the problem that Kamala Harris had and the problem that Joe Biden had. The difference, though, was Kamala was telling you the border was closed when it wasn't, that the economy was better and it wasn't. Crime was down, but it wasn't. They were flat out lying. The difference here is Trump has some pretty good numbers in certain areas, but you have to at least let the people in that you understand what they feel is still difficult and that while they've made strides, you need to let them know, here's where we were, here's where we are now. And the trajectory is only going up if you allow us to keep hold of the House, the Senate and the White House. It has to kind of be a combination of those messages. But, but the Bill Clinton ubiquitous, I feel your pain should be part of that, I believe as well, moving forward in talking about these issues because the American people are struggling for sure.

[Mark]

Kevin, we've seen Hogan.

[Kevin]

Can I ask you though, do you think that last part about it, Bill Clinton, I feel your pain. The president is so wired to just be a cheerleader, right. And accept that nothing is wrong, people aren't. And he gave that speech at the Kennedy center where he said, you know, I don't understand why the American people aren't feeling this way. Do you think he has the capacity, having worked for him, to acknowledge that kind of pain that some people are feeling, or is he just going to be that cheerleader that is pretty effective, right. And has been effective in the past?

[Hogan]

Well, first of all, it's the Trump Candy center so let's make that very clear. Second is, yes, but he doesn't do it in the typical way a politician does it. Instead of saying, I feel your pain or having my cuckaby get off a stool, famously, and look at a lady whose children have cancer and say, I can't imagine how I would feel if my child had cancer. And get in there like that. He's more of a, look, it was rough, but he would say something like, joe Biden ruined your lives. He ruined the economy for four years. I know it's tough, but I'm fixing it. We have prices down, we have this. He'll go into his mantra, but he'll remind you who caused that pain, as opposed to him saying, hey, I know it's rough out there. I get it. Right. He's not going to say it. I think in those ways, both effective and I think both work.

[Mark]

Kevin, let me ask you. So, so Bessant, publicly and privately, is betting on the economy roaring by, you know, by the spring, and being able to run on promises made, promises kept. That's not impossible. And there's some economic data that suggests, you know, maybe even more likely than not. So if you're sitting around with Chuck Schumer and, and Ken Farmer, like, how do you, how do you, what do you do as the Democrats, in case that happens? Just continue to cherry pick the negative stuff. I mean, otherwise, if your whole thing is, if your whole thing's on the economy's weak and then the economy turns out not to be weak, how are Democrats preparing for that possibility?

[Kevin]

Yeah, it's a good question. You know, weak to who? Right. I mean, it's still going to be the case that 40% of Americans, even if the economy is booming, still can't afford a $500 medical bill, unexpected bill, stuff like that. Right. So that gap is still real. It is the issue of, you know, what middle class folks are feeling, especially suburban voters. Right. That are not making, you know, a Fortune. They're around 100k a year. How are they feeling? And again, everything is going to be locked in come this spring to predict what people will, how people will vote in November. There's a very short amount of time for this administration to change course in people's mentality because again, once you hit June, July, August, that mentality is going to be what dictates where people are in November.

[Mark]

Well said. All right, we're going to skip around a little bit. I want to get to your questions in just a moment. Raise your hand if you'd like to get in on the conversation. Two other truth social posts from the President this morning, both awesomely interesting. First on Iran. The Saudis say the U.S. can't use the airspace, but that doesn't matter. If the president wants to strike, they'll figure out a way to not use Saudi airspace to hit Iran. Here's the President's post. A massive armada, meaning American armada, is headed to Iran. It's moving quickly, with great power, enthusiasm and purpose. It is a larger fleet headed by the great aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln than that set to Venezuela. Like with Venezuela, it is ready, willing and able to rapidly fulfill its mission with speed and violence if necessary. Hopefully, Iran will quickly come to the table and negotiate a fair and equitable deal. No nuclear weapons, one that is good for all parties. Time is running out. It is truly of the essence, as I told Iran once before, make a deal. They didn't and there was Operation Midnight Hammer, a major destruction of Iran. The next attack will be far worse. Don't make that happen again. Thank you for your attention to this matter. President Donald J. Trump. Kevin, we, we had thought that there was going to be a strike. It was going to be about the protests and supporting the protests. Now all of a sudden we're back to a strike to degrade, destroy their nuclear capabilities. So what's your sense of what's going on here in terms of the strategy and the likelihood that there'll be a military act?

[Kevin]

I still think there's going to be a military action here. Reports are the regime is at the weakest point ever in the history since 1979. I think, you know, this was covered to get the Lincoln. There's another carrier striker group coming over from the Atlantic into the Med and that the president will take action, especially now with the reports that, you know, upwards of 30,000 Iranians have been slaughtered thus far. I think when he's out there saying help is on the way and that encourages Iranians to take to the streets and then to see that brutal regime crack down, I think the President is going to take action there and should take action there. Again, the regime is at the weakest point and this is the way to do it. And I think the part of, part of this is covered and the President's going to do the right thing here.

[Mark]

Hogan, thoughts on that?

[Hogan]

Yeah, for the life of me though, I can't figure out why these foreign leaders continue to assume bet on Trump not doing something when he's clearly said he's going to do something and then has done it on multiple Occasions, multiple missions, backing up what he has claimed he would do. The red lines that other administrations have drawn and let pass. And no, no one did anything. It wasn't a big deal. I get it. But they have kind of a taste of this from the first four years of his first administration. Now this administration, he's just as active, doing strategic surgical strikes, making sure that what he said would happen does happen. And if there's one thing he hates, and there are a lot of them. If there's one thing he hates, he doesn't like death and destruction. He doesn't like that stuff on his watch. And if he sees innocent.

[Kevin]

Innocent death and destroy.

[Hogan]

Innocent death. Yes. And if he sees this happening, he will be. And the reports are true, as Kevin said, upwards of 30,000 people being slaughtered in the streets. He said, don't do that. He said, you better not do that. He's laid down some lines.

[Mark]

But. But then, Hogan, why. I'm sorry to interrupt, but why is he switching to. To talking about the nuclear program?

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Hogan]

Again, I don't know that it's necessarily. I get what you're trying to do and kind of differentiate, but understand, it's still the Iranian regime, and they're in what they're doing, and they understand power, they understand toughness. And if Trump says, all right, I see what you're doing to your people. Watch me destroy your nuclear capabilities, more. Focus on you in that way, even more. It's part and parcel with the entire regime itself.

[Mark]

Understood.

[Kevin]

And those are hardened military targets, which are easier to do than a regime change.

[Hogan]

Yes.

[Mark]

Yeah.

[Kevin]

And I think the Iranian regime is taking the worst playbook out of the Maduro thing with taunting him. Right. You saw this giant billboard go up about death and destruction and calling out the president directly, especially referencing Butler and the assassination attempt. I mean, that really. That really doesn't.

[Mark]

They did not get the memo.

[Hogan]

Some would argue that Donald Trump wouldn't even have run for president had it not been a joke told by Barack Obama at correspondence dinner about never believe the mocking.

[Mark]

Never, never believe. Never believe. That's why you're in. I don't. I don't either.

[Hogan]

I'm just.

[Mark]

We're throwing some topics off the sled, but I want to get to one more. The President, United States. 3 Truth Social posts this morning we showed right before we went on the air. We showed you two. Minnesota couldn't be a more serious matter. Life and death, national interest. Second, Iran international. Life and death. But one more on a topic the president posts on on a regular basis. And it is my strongest area of agreement with Donald Trump. The NFL kickoff rule is ridiculous. And he fused it up with the second most ridiculous thing happened in football in the last hundred years. Bill Belichick denied first ballot access to the hall of Fame. Here's the post from the president. And again, this is, this is written in prose, but ladies and gentlemen, this is poetry. It is the same mindset that gave pro football the new and unwatchable kickoff rule that made it possible for Bill Belichick to not be elected into the Pro Football hall of Fame. Both are ridiculous and should be overturned. Gentlemen, can we agree on both those points?

[Kevin]

Yes.

[Hogan]

Yes.

[Mark]

Yes. Okay. All right then.

[Kevin]

And again, you saw that. You saw the Belichick photo with all the rings on his fingers. I don't think he has any fingers free.

[Mark]

I like what he said. He said, I won six Super Bowls. What do they, what do they, what do they want? And then one of his supporters, I forget who it was, said, said, no coach should be a first bout honoree if he is not. Now deflate gate kids shouldn't be taught to cheat. I agree with that. But come on now. Come on now. We know Tom did that. We know Tom did that. All right, quick word from a sponsor.

[Kevin]

I think Stephen Miller did that.

[Mark]

Yeah, quick word. Or Katie, Quick word from a sponsor. And then to your question. So please raise your hand. We'd love some new people. If you've never raised your hand before, please do 25 discount now for better sleep. 25 off. Better sleep, more relaxation, better feeling, dealing with pain after injury. I stubbed my toe yesterday. I could use some pain relief right now. Not going to kid you. 25 off everything on the website cbdistillery.com over 2 million happy customers for CB distillery.com their products are natural and 100 money back guaranteed. Party tested free from artificial dyes and fillers. Right now, save 25 off all the products on CBDistillery.com if you're a viewer of this program, a listener to this program, if you know how to spell gidley, any of those things, you're available for 25% discount. Just use the promo code 2WMM. 2WMM. For 25% off everything on the site go to CBDistillery.com promo code 2WMM. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Ladies and gentlemen, it's time for your participatory moment. Deborah, welcome in. Tell folks who don't know where you are and what's on your mind for Kevin and for Hogan and Thank you for being part of Two Way.

[Deborah]

Hi, gentlemen. I'm in New York City and I've been trying to track the evolution of the Democrats view on immigration. I don't know if some of you have seen, I'll recap a little bit, some clips of Obama going around where his views are quite different. Him talking about even though it's a compassionate thing to be concerned about the immigrants, if you do this without any repercussions, we can have a surge. We're ignoring people already waiting in line. We're a nation of rights and obligations to control the borders. No matter how decent the people are, no matter their reasons, they broke the law. This was in 2010, in 2013 also, when asked if they should freeze deportations, he said, you can't break the laws. I can't do this legally. So I've been trying to understand where did the shift happen with the Democrats and why. I do wonder if it's both top down and bottom up. Were there electoral strategies for shifting on this and then bottom up with, I think, the rise of the social justice warrior, this sort of view around privilege and people sort of in society feeling more concerned. Oh my gosh, I have privilege. And also seeing religious bodies. I see so many churches, the sanctuary movement, lots of you in synagogues putting out statements about how we need to treat immigrants that it seems also from the religious world, there are some pressures on treating immigrants in a different way. So what do you guys think has sort of caused this shift in the Democrat view on immigration?

[Mark]

Great, great question, Deborah. Very good. Kevin, first.

[Kevin]

Yeah, Deborah, it's a great question. I think, you know, you relay those Obama quotes very similar to what George W. Bush was saying. Right. Compassion. Right. And a need for bipartisan compromise when it comes to immigration. We had a deal in 2012, 2014, through the Senate, obviously didn't get any play in the House. That was very in line and the parties were mostly in line on that element. I think what you've seen is my party to some degree reacting to the rhetoric from Donald Trump coming down the escalator, right, where he talked specifically about immigrants and things like that. And that's almost radicalized elements within my party that see this just as a black and white issue and not a space where we can get compromise when it comes to daca, where we can get compromise in terms of actually enforcing the law. And I think that's what's fueled the difference in rhetoric and some of the positions my party has taken. I'm still in that Obama mold in terms of, you know, we're a nation of laws. I think the president's done a really good job when it's come to border security, and you're seeing that reflected in the polls, even with Democrats lining up to some degree behind him. So again, I think that that breakdown has been, I think, as a direct result of President Trump's rhetoric coming down the escalator and launching that campaign on that particular issue.

[Mark]

Hogan Gidley is known as two things. Modern day de Tocqueville, modern day David Cassidy.

[Hogan]

Hogan thank you, Deborah, for the question. I think there are a lot of factors here, and I don't think one of them kind of has dictated this shift. I think language plays a big part in it. I mean, the left has kind of co opted that to talk about undocumented people, undocumented migrants, when they're not. If you leave the house today and forget your license at home, you're undocumented, but you're a citizen of this country. They've kind of made language much softer on the issue as opposed to exactly what they are, illegal aliens as defined by law. I think there's a big problem too, with past administrations, both Republican and Democrat. I mean, Reagan, for heaven's sake, said we'll close the border, I'll give you amnesty as a trade. He never closed the border, he just allowed the amnesty. That kind of stuff begins roiling too, I believe, at the local level as well, as you begin to see people who are poor whites, poor blacks, poor Hispanics who are citizens of this country, who are supposed to be getting government assistance, regardless of how you feel about entitlement programs, they're supposed to get these government assistances, but they're going to people who don't have a right to be in this country at all for free. I think there's a lot of backlash and a lot of resentment in those corridors as well. And then someone like Obama, for example, telling us for years he wasn't a king, he couldn't wave a magic wand and just allow daca, that's not how it works. And then turned around and did it. These types of things over immigration have gone on for a long time. And I would argue too, in the last several campaigns, I remember talking to candidates about this comprehensive immigration reform became a complete negative somewhere around mid George W. Bush time, somewhere in there, because then it became a whoa, that's code for just letting everybody in the country illegally, an amnesty. So a lot of factors there that I think have really ratcheted up the tensions. And lastly, I would say the exclamation point on this, too, that really kind of turned the tide on this argument was when Republican governors said, wait a minute, blue states, wait a minute, sanctuary cities. You say you want these people, but you're not affected by them. Like Texas, like Florida, like other border states. You want them, you got them and they sent them there and they got to see the fallout from that. That also, I think, changed some of the heated arguments in, in and around immigration.

[Mark]

Deborah, thank you. Really great question. Grateful to you. Colin, welcome in. Tell folks who don't know where you are what's on your mind for Hogan and for Kevin. Thank you for being here.

[Hogan]

Oh, hey.

[Mark]

Yes, sir.

[Hogan]

Speaking of Lindsey Graham, for example, I got kicked off the Christmas card list because from the North Lawn, I reminded people when he opposed the president on immigration, I said that we don't call him Grandesty for nothing, that he was booed off the stage in South Carolina when he supported George W. Bush's position on amnesty. And they called me and said, you know, you're off the Christmas card list. I said, fine. Now Lindsey Graham's at the border like every other week saying, close the border. So these things always shift and move around.

[Mark]

Marco Rubio, Same thing, same, same, same journey, same journey. Colin, welcome in. Tell folks who don't know where you are what's on your mind. Thank you for being part of Two Way. I am calling from Oxford, Mississippi.

[Kevin]

Just enjoying our snow days up here. But so my question is about the, the whole immigration thing and the kind of settlement that Trump seems to have come with with Waltz. It kind of made me wondering, is.

[Mark]

That agreement where they'll pull back some.

[Kevin]

Of the federal forces and Waltz has.

[Mark]

Agreed to allow the local law enforcement, state level, state know forces cooperate with ice.

[Kevin]

Isn't that what Trump kind of just.

[Mark]

Wanted to begin with?

[Kevin]

So isn't this, you know, a wind.

[Mark]

Just a return to the status quo for the administration?

[Kevin]

I'm really not understanding.

[Mark]

Yeah, it's a great question. No, you're, you're, you. I think you have it right and I can understand why even having it right, it'd be confusing to you. It'll depend on exactly the devil in the details, right, how this actually goes. If the, if, if what happens is the people who they want to deport can be safely and smoothly deported and it will be, it will be what the president wanted. But we're going to have to see exactly how smooth it is and we're going to have to see also who they want to deport because as we've discussed on this platform many times, there's not a full debate led by the administration on who should be deported. I hear people say it's outrageous to go to the Target parking lot or the Home Depot parking lot and try to deport those people. I hear people say that's un American. And I hear people say those people are here illegally. And, and they're just, they're, they're, they're doing what Jesse James did with the banks. They're going there because they, they have good reason to believe that a lot of those people are in the country illegally, and that's why they're seeking employment that way. So that, that's, I think, where the rub's going to be is, is who do they continue to try to deport? And initially, how cooperative is. Is the local. Are the local folks. And that makes me wonder, like, what did people think he meant by all the signs of his rallies in the.

[Kevin]

RNC that said mass deportations? Now, he wasn't exactly hiding the ball well.

[Mark]

Well, he wasn't. Except then after he got elected, they started to say, well, starting with the bad hombres, we're starting with the worst of the worst. Well, that's, that's, that's how, that's how they're trying to align it, say, starting with. But I don't know what, I don't know what the President's answer would be, and I don't know what his actual position is, because about. After you, okay, we finished with the bad hombres, now what are we doing? Because his friends in AG and hospitality don't want anybody touched. They, they want their workers. And, and, And a lot of his friends say, well, what about the woman who, who sews my pants? What about the woman who, you know, picks my kids up from school? There's, There's a lot of ambiguity built into starting with Hogan. Kevin, what did I say that needs fixing so much?

[Hogan]

No, I'm kidding, Colin. First of all, everybody, okay, your family in Oxford, I know that they've been devastated by that ice storm.

[Mark]

Oh, yeah.

[Kevin]

Thankfully, my family's home in Florida, enjoying the warm Florida sun. But, yeah, only bright spot right now.

[Hogan]

Yeah. Look, I think understand there was a tweet put out by Tim Waltz who basically said, trump's lying, the government's lying. We are cooperating 100%. We don't have a single person in custody. We haven't turned over at our state prisons, et cetera, et cetera. True. However, that's not the problem in Minnesota, if you're in the state system, for example, you have started to serve your time. Yes. Then you're turned over to ice. What the problem is is that the city and county level, where they are just releasing these criminals, slapping them with a fine, plea bargaining. That's why you see folks with like a rap sheet a mile long, because they're not detained and turned over to ice, they're released back into the communities. That's one of the biggest issues. So the devil in the details, as Mark said, if the administration came out and said, listen, we are going to enforce federal law, you guys need to come up with a way to make that happen, whether that be through your local law enforcement, whether you be. Whether it be us being able to go into your city and county jails and take them. Because when you don't do that, when you don't hold them for ICE and you release them into communities, you have to go, as Mark pointed out Jesse James, when he was asked about whitey rob banks, he said that's where the money is. If the illegal aliens are in communities, you have to go into the communities to take them out. They had them in jails and this is working all over the country. But for some reason, Minnesota can't quite figure it out. And I would argue it's on purpose, by design, not by accident. But anyway, that to me. So when you say return to the status quo, I don't think the status quo is sustainable for the administration and quite frankly for the people of Minnesota, whether they know it or not. So there will be some wrangling going on with what they can do, what they're able to do, working with local law enforcement, and if you can put it back on them and say, all right, we're going to enforce the laws that are passed, you have to figure out a way to make this happen on your end. Then it becomes his, Governor Waltz's and Mayor Fry's problem. If they're going to reject that, then we've got a whole different PR battle to fight.

[Kevin]

Kevin, I'll only tack onto that. But what Hogan said, I think one of the big things that Governor Wallace has been focused on and pushing for is the state investigative authority working in conjuncture with the FBI. I think that that's likely one of the concessions that the President made, just in terms of, you're seeing his language in the, in the days since, you know, the four days since that incident. So I think that's obviously something that Governor Walz is going to be touting is the fact that his state bcs, the state investigative body, is going to be able to work hand in glove with the FBI, with DHS in terms of the investigation element. And I think that's probably one of the things touted in that, that you mentioned coming out of their conversations and what has been shared.

[Mark]

Okay, couple of things, Colin, thank you. Grateful to you. Thank you.

[Hogan]

Take off that maroon, Colin.

[Mark]

Howdy, Toddy. A couple of things and back to your questions. First of all, Senator Rubio's hearing foreign relations about to start. And see on Twitter, you know, they're limited seating in the hearing room and lobbyists want to go and activists and all that. Apparently the hearing room, a bunch of interns got there super early, got in line and they got the whole place. They got almost every seat in the thing. So other folks aren't able to get in. So good, good for the interns to take the seats. A quick word from a sponsor. Last one. Ethos.com mark gets you a free life insurance quote from the folks at Ethos. It's an online platform that makes getting life insurance easy. No medical exam, just answer a few health questions and could take as little as 10 minutes to get up to $3 million in life insurance. If you're the main breadwinner in your family and you don't currently have life insurance, listen to me now. Listen to my voice. Go get life insurance. Go get a quote free quote from ethos.com get this taken care of so you can say to your family, if something happens to me, we'll be able to pay. You'll be able to pay the bills, the mortgage, the rent, college tuition, other major expenses. Go to ethos.com/get a free quote right now. As I said, as little as 10 minutes. Incalculable in terms of the peace of mind you get. If you've taken care of that, you've crossed it off your list. And if you haven't done it, do it right now. Again, Ethos.com mark up to $3 million in coverage in as little as 10 minutes. Go to Ethos.com mark. Thank you for your attention to this matter. All right, guys, you know those baby videos that we play here sometime, the AI Babies? Hogan, you don't like them.

[Kevin]

Yes.

[Hogan]

They're so.

[Mark]

You don't like them, right? They're so trite. Kevin, you like them. I can see you're smiling.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Mark]

All right, all right.

[Kevin]

They're all the same.

[Hogan]

It's a baby saying.

[Mark]

And of course, the people, the people on listening on the podcast are like, what's all the fuss about? There's a new one. It's adorable. We're not going to play the whole thing. Let's just play like 30 seconds until Hogan makes a sour face and then we'll go back to questions. Go ahead, play it. So this weekend, the president posted that.

[Deborah]

This is a cover up of the fraud in the state of Minnesota. He also posted Minnesota is a cover up.

[Kevin]

These both happened after the shooting.

[Deborah]

So given these came after the shooting, what is the.

[Mark]

This here?

[Deborah]

What is.

[Mark]

Come on, Hogan. Baby Caroline. Yes, it's a good question.

[Deborah]

I spoke with the president about this at length. What the president is referring to is the fact that you have Governor Wall.

[Mark]

And again, the mayor, who have been.

[Deborah]

Encouraging these left wing agitators to come out.

[Mark]

Oh, get Baby Caroline. Come on.

[Deborah]

And to threaten ICE and to make this conversation about smear lies, about federal law enforcement.

[Mark]

Take it down. You can go watch it online.

[Kevin]

And an attempt. Baby Homan.

[Mark]

Baby Homan. Baby Homan. Hogan, you have the coldest heart. You, you, you. You make the Grinch look like Charo.

[Hogan]

Well, first of all, the Grinch didn't hate Christmas. He hated people. And so I understand that. That's fine. That's fair.

[Kevin]

It was a vehicle for him.

[Mark]

Yeah, exactly. All right, Steve, unmute.

[Hogan]

There's a joke here about which party really actually does think babies are cute and worth it, but I'll leave that for another time. It's fine. Like, they're fun to watch. Okay. I don't.

[Mark]

Okay, fine. Steve, welcome in. Thank you for being part two way. Tell folks where you are. Love your hat and what's on your mind. For Kevin and for Hogan.

[Hogan]

Yeah. Good morning, gents.

[Kevin]

I'm in Charleston, South Carolina. Thanks for having me. I wish I was at our place there. We're in Charleston.

[Hogan]

I can't see you.

[Mark]

Is that Hogan? No, that's.

[Kevin]

Yeah, yeah. South Abroad. Right by this tennis courts, right by the. The Coast Guard base right there.

[Mark]

Oh, fancy.

[Kevin]

Yeah, it's not that fancy.

[Mark]

It's a nice. It's a nice strip of land.

[Kevin]

Yeah. Fancy area. I just moved down here from New York City a couple months ago, so.

[Mark]

Okay, Food's better in Charleston and, like, slightly cheaper.

[Hogan]

Yes, in his heart. Kevin's telling you to go home, by the way.

[Mark]

Steve, Steve, we got to get to your question, but I'll just. I'll give you one, two recommendations. Husk is my favorite restaurant, and the sushi at the Piggly Wiggly is to be avoided at all costs.

[Kevin]

I can confirm the. The the latter, but not the former.

[Mark]

Okay, go to Husk. All right, what's, what's on your mind, Steve?

[Kevin]

So I've listened to I don't know how many hours of commentary on the situation in Minnesota, and no one's really explained the substantive facts of what's going on. So we have had ICE since 2003. Obama deported 2.5 million people. Tom Homan was around. What actual changes have occurred, aside from rhetorical? Have, have we hired a lot more ICE agents? I keep hearing that all of this is a result of poor training on this show and others.

[Mark]

Yeah.

[Kevin]

Has training requirements been dropped? Is there a change in standards in detention facilities? What protocol changes have occurred? What tactical changes have occurred? What really, because you said this is such a major interest, such a major issue for national interest and for lives. And I really don't know whether we should be worked up or not, other than the unfortunate events that have happened because of it. But what actually has changed you?

[Mark]

No one's. You mean in the last year since.

[Kevin]

Since Trump came in.

[Mark]

And what I'll be, I'll be brief because we're up against the time. But you're, you're, it's a great point, a great question. They've hired more people. They have changed and in some cases reduced the training. And they've been more aggressive about who they're trying to deport by going into blue cities without coordination and trying to aggressively deport people. So they've made changes. Those are all, those are all new things. And there's others. But, but we're short of time. But they have made changes. And, and they're, as Hogan will be the first to tell you, this is what the president said he was going to do. No, nobody should be surprised. Now, Barack Obama deported a lot of people, but they didn't do it quite this way. And yeah, yeah, yeah. In terms of detention centers there. There are plenty of them. Got to go, Steve. I'm sorry. But come back. We'll talk more about it. I apologize.

[Hogan]

Also, change the thing, too.

[Mark]

Yeah.

[Hogan]

All right.

[Kevin]

We're going to move the show to Charleston so Steve can be in the live audience.

[Mark]

Okay. Citizen McCain at noon today. Miranda filling in for Megan, who's enjoying her new baby. And they booked the hell out of the episode. Ben Ferguson and Christine Rosen, two great guests. Join Miranda at noon for that. Mary Margaret Olahan is my guest, White House correspondent for the Daily Wire on two way tonight. Remember our new time, five Eastern time and a morning meeting tomorrow. Kevin will be back and Hogan is swapping out with Larry o'. Connor. So Kevin and Larry tomorrow. And Hogan couldn't be more grateful to you for spending a couple days with us. I'm on with Michael Smerconish right now and then at 1:30 Eastern I'll be on with Clay and Buck, fresh off my interview with them on Next up, including what's getting a lot of attention on Twitter, which is Buck, some of you know this already had never heard of Madden and Summerall, never heard of of the pair of Madden and Sumrall. So I'm sure that'll be a topic of conversation because Buck is unapologetic. His attitude is so what? And of course we all know so what. So I just wonder if it's gotten.

[Kevin]

Back to Susie, you know.

[Mark]

Well, Susie's daughter. I know. Susie's daughter knows. She was on Twitter about it. Anyway, I'll see if I'll see on Marconish now on Sirius XM. I'll see on Clay and Buck at 1:30. I'll see you here at 5:00 clock on two way. I'll see Kevin and Larry tomorrow at 9:00am And Hogan, we'll see you in the cutaways at the White House. Thank you both.

[Kevin]

Thousand dollar trump check.

[Mark]

Exactly. Thank you all. Have a great day everybody.

[Hogan]

Have a great.