What Does the Video Show? ICE Officer's Shooting of Minneapolis Woman Sparks National Uproar

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

The Morning Meeting on 2WAY
Episode: What Does the Video Show? ICE Officer's Shooting of Minneapolis Woman Sparks National Uproar
Date: January 8, 2026
Host: Mark Halperin
Co-hosts/Panel: Larry, Yemisi
Main Topic: Dissecting the facts and fallout around the fatal shooting of a Minneapolis woman by an ICE officer, analyzing media presentations, public reactions, and the broader implications.

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the controversial shooting of a woman by an ICE officer in Minneapolis, a story dominating cable news and sparking widespread protest and fierce political debate. Host Mark Halperin leads a roundtable styled after TV newsroom morning meetings, joined by co-hosts Larry and Yemisi, as well as callers from various backgrounds. The conversation balances what is known from the video evidence with the many outstanding questions about context, law enforcement procedures, and political polarization in public and media responses.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: What Do We Know? [03:00–08:00]

• Cable news is heavily focused on the incident, but there are still major unknowns: What exactly was the woman's involvement with ICE? What occurred in the crucial moments before and after the shooting?
• Protests are expected in Minneapolis as ICE maintains its presence, despite criticism from local officials.
• Mark expresses frustration at the stark polarization in public reaction:

  “I can't find a single person who voted for Donald Trump who thinks this was the fault of ICE. And I can't find a single person who voted for Kamala Harris who doesn't think that woman was killed inappropriately. Not one. Not one. And that makes no sense.” (07:02)

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2. Initial Reactions: Co-host Perspectives [08:37–13:00]

• Larry (Law-and-order Perspective):

  • Believes the ICE officer acted “completely justifiably.”
  • Shaped by the hostile environment ICE faces in Minnesota, with officials likening them to “the Gestapo.”
  • “I don't think in that 8 second span, I'm willing to say that that police officer didn't act completely justifiably in protecting himself and his fellow officers.” (08:55)

• Mark challenges Larry to consider questions regarding ICE protocols on use of force.

  • Notes reporting that ICE policy says not to fire at vehicles moving away.
  • Larry responds: “The car wasn't moving away from them, so that's [not relevant].” (10:40)

• Yemisi (Civil Liberties Perspective):

  • Sees a neighborhood distrusting ICE and questions escalation.
  • Sympathetic to the community’s fear and ICE’s fraught reputation.
  • “There is no need to escalate or get out of the car or draw guns…to me, the brunt of this responsibility is on ICE and maybe the way they are trained.” (11:08)

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3. Medical Response & Treatment After the Shooting [13:00–15:00]

• Mark inquires about the immediate response: Did ICE deny medical help?
• Larry: Cites chaos; suggests denying an unconfirmed “doctor” is not evidence of indifference.
• Yemisi: Observes that the ICE agent was bureaucratic in refusing that help.
• Uncertainty remains regarding how long the woman lay untreated.

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4. Legal & Jurisdictional Questions [15:15–17:30]

• Will the ICE officer cooperate with investigations? Debate on state vs. federal jurisdiction.
• Will charges be brought, and what would they be? Manslaughter, murder, or simply unlawful weapon discharge?
• Yemisi: Leans toward manslaughter.

  “The fact that he fired his weapon and it led to her murder, it would be manslaughter.” (17:06)

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5. Analyzing the Critical Video Footage [17:24–23:27]

• Mark insists honest coverage requires showing all available angles, particularly one where the officer appears to fire his gun only after being struck by the woman’s car (split-second timing).
  • “He shot her when the car hit him…if you’re just looking for clarity on an explanation of how he could have done what he did, it seems to me that split screen does it.” (21:15)
• Yemisi: Remains critical:

  “I am just not sure that there was imminent threat to his life.” (12:59)

• Larry: Argues that the officer followed his training to “stop the threat.” (23:11)

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6. Policing, Protest, and Community Tensions [24:00–31:41]

• Debates about how local law enforcement should interact with ICE.
• Larry shares personal experience with protests, urging compliance with law enforcement:

  “If you encounter police officers and the police give you orders…please follow the police officer’s orders. That’s how we got to live in this society.” (24:43)

• Jane from Atlanta calls actions like blocking ICE operations “political vigilanteism” (28:23), sparking debate on community activism versus obstruction.

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7. Deepening Political Divide and Law Enforcement Legitimacy [31:41–39:05]

• Mark reads a Twitter thread from a defense attorney, critiqued point by point by Larry and Yemisi.
• Debate over whether ICE officers are functionally different from regular police, and what legal powers they had in this case.
  • Yemisi: “It looked like she was waving a car to go through, and that car decided to stop and those officers got out.” (34:57)
• Mark quotes the Vice President, who is adamant the woman was obstructing law enforcement.
• Use of “murder” by prominent Democrats is discussed, highlighting the potent rhetoric fueling the divide.

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8. How Do We Move Past This? [39:05–47:56]

• Chad from Dallas: Laments how these incidents instantly become polarized and sees fault on both political sides.

  “The moment that something like this happens, the red flag and the blue flag goes up…It’s a tragic loss of life. It’s also law enforcement doing their job.” (37:18)

• Yemisi: Warns against “abolish ICE” as a starting point for reform discussions, likening the moment to the height of BLM protests.
• Larry: Argues for respect for legal process and electoral change instead of obstructing law enforcement.

  “The way you make change in this country is through the ballot box…They don't march in the streets and impede…law enforcement, who are just trying to do their job.” (41:08)

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9. Questions About Training & Deadly Force Standards [44:07–46:00]

• Haley (caller):
  • “What bothers me so much more is I feel like we can’t even ask questions like, why did he shoot more than once? Why is this the training?...The amount of cases that we see where cops are using…deadly force, is a question that I think…is okay to be asked.” (44:36)
• Larry: Officers trained to stop not wound; repetition of shots is standard.
• Mark & Yemisi: Emphasize need for transparency on training and handling in these situations.

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10. Reflections on Race, Public Perceptions, and Political Rhetoric [47:56–62:35]

• Yemisi remarks on the surprise that the victim is a white woman, not fitting past protest narratives—sparking a brief side discussion of racial dynamics in police shootings. (48:04)
• Larry and Mark cite statistics on police shootings by race.
• Aaron from Houston (caller):**
  • Explains the concept of “self-jeopardizing” tactics employed by police that place officers in vulnerable positions to justify the use of deadly force.

  “It is a technique that is designed to optimize risk to the suspect and negligible risk to the cop.” (55:02)

  • Urges review of these tactics, stressing the need to “optimize for” suspects standing trial, not being killed.
• Comparison is made to Ashley Babbitt: “...she wasn’t really a risk to that cop.” (57:54)
• Mark reveals that Hillary Clinton tweeted, calling the shooting “murder,” inflaming rhetorical stakes. (60:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mark [07:02]: "I can't find a single person who voted for Donald Trump who thinks this was the fault of ICE... that makes no sense. The media's coverage of this is unfortunately... biased."
• Larry [08:55]: "In that 8 second span, I'm willing to say that that police officer didn't act completely justifiably in protecting himself."
• Yemisi [11:08]: "To me, the brunt of this responsibility is on ice and maybe the way that they are trained to handle these situations."
• Mark [21:15]: "He shot her when the car hit him... if you’re just looking for clarity on an explanation of how he could have done what he did, it seems to me that split screen does it."
• Chad from Dallas [37:18]: "The moment... something like this happens, the red flag and the blue flag go up. This is not political... It’s a tragic loss of life. It’s also law enforcement doing their job."
• Haley [44:36]: “Why is this the training... The amount of cases that we see where cops are using deadly force is a question I think... is okay to be asked.”
• Aaron from Houston [55:02]: “It is a technique that is designed to optimize risk to the suspect and negligible risk to the cop.”
• Mark [60:28]: “Hillary Clinton. Last night at the corner where an ICE agent murdered Renee Good…”

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [03:00–08:00] — The scope of the story, what’s known & unknown
• [08:37–13:00] — Co-host initial reactions, responsibility debate
• [13:00–15:00] — Discussion of medical response after the shooting
• [15:15–17:30] — Legal/jurisdictional uncertainties, possible criminal charges
• [17:24–23:27] — Detailed video analysis—when the shot was fired
• [24:00–31:41] — Policing, protest tactics, and community conflict
• [31:41–39:05] — Legal analysis & review of public Twitter arguments about the shooting
• [39:05–47:56] — How does society move forward? Callers’ questions on blame, reform, and polarization
• [44:07–46:00] — Discussion of law enforcement training and deadly force
• [47:56–49:07] — Discussion on race and public perceptions
• [54:07–59:55] — Call-in discussion focusing on police shooting tactics and comparison to previous incidents
• [60:28–62:35] — Hillary Clinton calls it “murder”; final reflections and wrap-up

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Summary of Tone & Approach

The discussion is civil but passionate, reflecting the deeply polarized nature of the issue. Mark strives for balance, while Larry stands squarely with law enforcement and agency procedure, and Yemisi persistently centers community distrust and questions around ICE escalation and training. Multiple callers voice the need for dialogue, reform, and honest engagement with the facts and complexities—especially around tactics, training, and political rhetoric.

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Concluding Takeaways

• The roundtable reveals just how fraught and polarized the facts and emotions around these incidents remain.
• The video evidence is central to the legal and ethical debate, yet does not resolve all questions—especially about training and proportionality.
• Political, media, and community responses to the shooting are themselves drivers of public opinion, activism, and legislative action.
• Callers and panelists agree on one point: this incident is a tragedy, and important questions about law enforcement practice, protest, and community trust have yet to be resolved.

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For listeners seeking a nuanced, multifaceted conversation on a contentious national headline, this episode offers critical perspectives, apt legal and procedural analysis, and an illustrative glimpse into how the news agenda is shaped and debated among media professionals.

Transcript

[James Patterson]

I'm James Patterson. I write way too many books. Welcome to Hungry Dogs. The title comes from my maternal grandmother, Isabel Zelvis Morris. Nan used to always say, hungry dogs run faster, James. And I've been running fast ever since. Here's what will be coming your way soon. And this is a really terrific list. I think you'll hear from some incredible people like Stacey Abrams.

[Mark]

Yay.

[James Patterson]

BJ Novak.

[Mark]

Yay.

[James Patterson]

Kathy Bates. Dolly Parton. Josh Gad. And Pope Leo. Okay, maybe not Pope Leo, but who knows? Maybe he'll show up. Hungry dogs run faster. Thank you, Grandma, for turning me into a hopeless, obsessive, compulsive. Listen to Hungry Dogs with James Patterson. That'd be me on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Caller from Houston]

Foreign.

[Mark]

Here's Larry. And here's me. Thank you for joining. This is the morning meeting. You wanted.

[Larry]

You wanted it in your head.

[Mark]

Exactly.

[Larry]

You wanted to get it out.

[Mark]

Goes out of my head. Yemen. See emsc. Thank you all for being. Thank you all for being here. There's a lot of news out there right now. And, you know, every day we make our list, we send it out to those of you who get the substack and follow me on social media about what stories we're going to talk about here. And we usually get to a high percentage of them. And then, and then I looked at my friend John Ellis's substack and looked at the stories in his incredible daily newsletter, and most of these aren't even on our list. What's going on in Iran? President Trump proposing a $1.5 trillion defense budget, including defense spending by, again, by a half. A bunch is going on with artificial intelligence. There's a bunch of stuff going on in Congress about overriding the president's veto. There's a vote in the Senate today on the War Powers act that has a chance of passing, which would be extraordinary. There's a bunch of stuff going on with the oil companies. I could go on. The point is a lot of big news today and we're going to cover a lot of stuff. We're going to start with Minnesota. I find this story, it's interesting. Cable news is obsessed with it. TV in general is obsessed with it. And I don't mean obsessed in a pejorative way. They're covering it extensively, I should say. And newspapers less so. So in part because some stories lend themselves more to video. There's still a ton we don't know. A ton we don't know. And again, this Program's modeled on the Network News Division's morning meetings. And in those meetings, in a situation like this, typically they would go to a correspondent or a producer who was kind of the central point person who knew all the facts. Right. And to sort of run through. We expect protests today. There's no indication that the ICE presence in Minneapolis has declined overnight despite the colorful request of the mayor. So that'll be an unpredictable dynamic throughout the day. There was a memorial last night for the woman who was killed. There's so much we don't know. And I read widely on this overnight and into the morning. What was that woman doing there? What was she doing? And what interactions did she have with ice? The ICE secretary suggests. The Homeland Security secretary suggests that she was engaged in harassment or interference with the mission. I've seen no specifics about that. Then the videos, as compelling as they are, what happened after the shooting? How long was she there in that car? We've all seen the video and the stills of her out of the car, but I've seen no video or reporting of who picked her up out of the car. And we know that at least one doctor seemed to have wanted to assist and was declined the opportunity to assist. A lot of unanswered questions is my point. So we're going to do our best, as we did last night on two Way tonight, to talk through what we know. I will tell you, and if there's somebody in the community here who can defy what I'm about to say, but please aggressively raise your hand. I can't find a single person who voted for. For Donald Trump who thinks that this was the fault of ice. And I can't find a single person who voted for Kamala Harris who doesn't think that woman was. Was killed inappropriately. Not one. Not one. And that makes no sense. Makes no sense. The media's coverage of this is unfortunately the. The dominant media is unfortunately biased. It just is because there's compelling video evidence that makes the case for the ICE position much stronger than if you don't show the video of the car hitting the officer, the ICE official. If you don't show that video widely available, then you're not really telling the full story. It's not the whole story. There's culpability on both sides, just as there's culpability on both sides amongst the politicians. But I am flabbergasted and not surprised that many of the traditional media on television doesn't show that part of the story. So we're going to Run through it all. I'll run through the daybook. Then our two guest co hosts here are going to tell us what they think. We're going to be eager to hear from all of you. So if you want to get in on the conversation, please raise your hand. No smack in the chat. And I will tell you the amount of smack I've gotten because in my public comments so far on social media last night, I'm not siding with either side because I see a lot of gray here. And I was besieged by messages from people telling me, how dare I not say that woman was murdered and how dare I not, I not defend ICE and that officer. Incredible how passionately people feel about this when I believe the only sensible position is we need to wait for more facts and no one has clean hands on this, even based on the limited knowledge we have right now. She shouldn't have done what she did and they shouldn't have done what they did. I think that's pretty clear. Okay, stand by, everybody. Let me just run through the daybook and then we're gonna. We're gonna get going with a conversation about Minnesota and a lot of other topics. Okay. As I said, we don't really know what's gonna happen in Minnesota today, except there will be protests of some sort and the ICE presence will continue. How operationally active the ICE team will be, we'll have to see. We don't know that yet. President is doing a three closed press events today as of now. He did a two hour interview with the New York Times last night. We'll talk about that in a minute. But. So I don't know what else he's doing, but he's doing closed press. 10:15 photo opportunity with U.S. attorneys. 11:00', clock, closed press intelligence briefing. 5:30, closed press. Third day in a row. They list on his schedule an unspecified policy meeting. Don't know what the vice President's doing. He spent a lot of time with Jesse Waters doing an interview with Fox last night. Bobby Kennedy and the Agriculture Secretary, Brooke Rollins, are at 11 o' clock hosting a celebration of the nutrition policy announcement that was made yesterday. Not sure why they didn't celebrate it yesterday, but that's what they're doing. Scott Besant, by coincidence, is in Minnesota today speaking at the Minnesota Economic Club keynote address, 1245 Eastern. Steny Hoyer speaks on the floor following up on the news that broke yesterday that he's retiring from the House. The same time Schumer and Jefferies hold a joint press conference. Also at 10 o' clock that Senate vote on the war powers resolution which has about five wavering Republicans. I predict that it will not pass, but it will be interesting to watch. At 11 House is voting on those two overrides of first time Donald Trump will have been overridden. I believe at least one of those will succeed. And the house votes at 4:30 on the ACA enhanced subsidy discharge petition only. I think it was eight or nine Republican House Republicans voted for the procedural vote yesterday, far short of the 30 or so that have been predicted. We'll see if more vote for it on final passage. Couple more things. The Danish ambassador to the United States who you all know say it with me now. You Jesper Mueller Sorensen is on Capitol Hill today meeting with senators including Gene Shaheen to talk about Greenland after meeting with congressional staffers yesterday. Josh Shapiro announces his re election campaign today. And Gavin Newsom, 1:30 Eastern gives his state of the state address in Sacramento. Okay Larry, just tell us broadly your thoughts on Minnesota, just top line like what are your unanswered questions? How do you approach what occurred?

[Larry]

Loss of human life is tragic. It absolutely is. And I pray for this woman's family and friends and supporters who are feeling who are mourning today, full stop. I don't think that I'm in a position to say what you said just now, which is that no one's hands are clean here and that as you said, she shouldn't have done what she did, they shouldn't have done what they did. I'm not prepared or in any way in a position to say that the police officers did not do what they should have done. I think that when a police officer is in the line of duty exercising their constitutional responsibility of enforcing the law, enforcing federal law, and they are being impeded consistently, by the way, in a state where the governor has called them the Gestapo and lied and said that they were snatching innocent American citizens off the streets and leaving them the environment that they have been operating in. I don't think in that 8 second span, I'm willing to say that that police officer didn't act completely justifiably in protecting himself and his fellow officers. I'm sorry, I think their hands at this point, based on what I've observed, they are clean. And I don't think it helps anything to say that they shouldn't have done what they did. I think they, they were justified in doing what they did.

[Mark]

Just before we turn to your colleague, do you have any unanswered questions about either the facts or about the policy of ICE regarding the use of force, because there's some reporting that suggests that they're not supposed to use force in the way they did. Do you have any unanswered questions there or, you know, enough to say you're certain that their hands are clean at this moment?

[Larry]

I have no reason to doubt that this was justifiable and that their hands are clean based on everything that I know right now. I don't have any other questions at this point, but more information might come out. But I. I mean, what, what questions am I missing here?

[Mark]

Well, for instance, John Miller says that the ICE manual says you're not supposed to fire your weapon in that way at a car that's. That's. That's moving away from you.

[Larry]

Well, the car wasn't moving away from them, so that's.

[Mark]

During some of the shots. It was.

[Larry]

Well, again, I'm not in a position to second guess a law, a law enforcement officer in a split second as they feel that their life is threatened in if another bullet is fired from a chamber. You know, we're talking about literally the speed of a bullet here. Yeah, Right. So, no, I'm not going to second guess that.

[Mark]

Okay. Yeah.

[Yemisi]

See, Larry and I see it differently.

[Mark]

Yeah.

[Yemisi]

I see a neighborhood that was trying to protect itself from ice, trying to figure out why ICE was there in their neighborhood. And I will say I usually see contentious moments with ice very fraught. This, to me, one did not look like Kristi Noem, described as ice was stuck in the snow, trying to get out. But of course, we have not seen the couple minutes before, and maybe we will. And it also didn't look to me like the President said, like this ICE agent was hurt in a way where he was hospitalized, which we know that wasn't true. And then the video that showed the accident after showed the man running to the car and running back. So I think the point of contention, obviously, are those very few seconds. And you're right, it is kind of based off of your political. Off of your political leanings. I look at that and I think I shouldn't have acted, in my opinion, aggressive in the moment. I watched the video with the car that she let pass her, and then the second car pulls up. And maybe the second car isn't as read in and aware of the situation that this woman is letting the car pass to me. When I watch it, I see there's plenty of room for this truck to go by. There is no need to escalate or get out of the car or draw guns. And to me, the brunt of this responsibility is on ice. And maybe the way that they are trained to handle these situations, understanding that they are split seconds and we're all watching these slowed down videos and people are saying he could have moved, he could have jumped. Look, I'm not a law enforcement officer. Those moments happen so quickly. And living in Washington D.C. i've been in moments where shots were fired and you freeze almost. You don't know what to do. So I don't know if I can completely condemn the way that he reacted in the moment, but I am just not sure that there was imminent threat to his life.

[Larry]

Yeah.

[Mark]

So Larry, I just want to ask you. I don't read the chat, but I glance at it. Someone's raised the question that I raised. Do you have any concerns about what appears to be, based on what we've seen, a failure to try to get her the best care possible as fast as possible.

[Larry]

So that is a secondary issue that we should address. Are we done talking about the actual.

[Mark]

We're not, we're not done. We're not done talking about that. But just.

[Larry]

I have plenty more to say.

[Mark]

I just, I just want to know if you have concerns about that.

[Larry]

So what, what I saw in the video when people were. The person identified himself as a doctor and people were screaming, the mob on the street, there were all blowing whistles. It was chaotic. Shots had just been fired. A police officer thought his life was threatened at that moment. Police are trying to secure the area and bring the chaos factor down. Because an individual self identifies as a doctor, doesn't mean that he gets carte blanche to the crime scene.

[Mark]

Understood.

[Larry]

I think it is incumbent on law enforcement to bring medical assistance as quickly as possible. And I have no information that suggests that they didn't, short of the self identified doctor from the crowd.

[Mark]

Based on what you both, both have seen and know, do you agree with me that we don't know how long it was that she was there before she was put in an ambulance?

[Yemisi]

Yeah, I think I have this question of. I keep seeing things online that said she was parked there all day, but then some of the neighbor, some of the neighbors in the eyewitnesses said that they hadn't seen her for most of the day.

[Mark]

So you're talking about before. Before, before, Right. I'm asking about, I'm asking about after. Because this question of whether they were cavalier about treating her after she was shot, to some extent that will be answered by how long was she there? The guy says, the agent says Dice officer Says, we have a medic. We don't need the doctor. We have our own medic. I've not seen any video of her being treated, nor have I seen any video of her leaving the scene in an ambulance which has been reported that she did. Nor do I know how long she was there untreated.

[Larry]

And I'm asking, I don't, I haven't seen that information.

[Mark]

Okay.

[Yemisi]

I almost feel like somebody's like, ask my manager if you can go check the body. The way that the doctor engaged with that ICE agent, the ICE agent said, I understand and I know. But it was almost like he was.

[Larry]

Like, well, we don't know that he's a doctor.

[Mark]

Yeah, we don't know he's a doctor.

[Caller from Houston]

Sure.

[Mark]

Let me ask you a few forward looking questions and I want to go to the video that I think is the most important at this point based on what we, what we have. If, if the, if the state authorities investigate this as a crime by the isoface official, do you believe he'll cooperate with that investigation or refuse to?

[Larry]

Larry, I think that it'll probably end up being in a federal jurisdiction since it's a federal officer and they were conducting federal.

[Mark]

Well, but I don't, I don't think the state's going to let it be a federal jurisdiction.

[Larry]

I don't know if they'll. Well, let's see. I think that's going to be a fight and it might end up going in, but I have no doubt that the police officer, through his lawyers and representatives will cooperate because I don't think he has anything to.

[Mark]

Right. You keep calling him a police officer. Obviously he's not a police officer.

[Larry]

Law enforcement.

[Mark]

Sorry. Yeah, yeah. What you just said, Larry, runs counter to everyone, every defense and every lawyer I've talked to who says they don't believe he will cooperate.

[Larry]

Yeah, well, again, I don't think he will need to because it will be under federal jurisdiction. But if the federal government loses that fight and it ends up being in a state jurisdiction, then I think that he will.

[Mark]

Yeah. Okay, let me see. Do you believe that there'll be charges brought against him by the state or feds?

[Yemisi]

By the state, I'm sure. I think Kristi Noman and the president will circle the wagons on this. I think that sitting there, I mean, probably shaken, but I mean more confident than other situations where there are law enforcement officer involved shootings.

[Larry]

I'm curious, what charges do you think the state should bring against him? What do you think the crime is here, Yemen?

[Yemisi]

See discharge of A weapon?

[Mark]

Yeah.

[Larry]

Discharge of a weapon. So not manslaughter, not murder. Just the fact that he fired his weapon was the crime.

[Yemisi]

Well, the fact that he fired his weapon and it led to her murder, it would be manslaughter.

[Larry]

But wait, murder. Do you think she was murdered?

[Mark]

From.

[Yemisi]

From my side of things, from where I sit on the left, I watch it and I think this, this woman was murdered.

[Mark]

It.

[Yemisi]

It did not have to go this way.

[Mark]

Okay.

[Larry]

It did not have to go this way is not the same as murder.

[Mark]

Let me. Let's look at this one piece of video. We don't know what authority they had to ask her to get out of the car or what basis they had to. They seem to be asking her to get out of the car after telling her to move along. Okay, this, this is a split screen. Not many of you will have seen this off of. Someone put these two together. It's the two shots that have been most viewed. One is the shot that's kind of the head on where it's very difficult to see the ICE official who fired the weapon. And then the shot that's from a greater distance where you can see. And again, it is dishonest to cover this story, as so many did on morning television with. Without showing the second shot. And what's critical about this to me is it appears that this first shot is fired only after he is hit by her vehicle. Okay. And that makes the question of split second decision making. And what he felt, he felt someone who they asked to get out of the car, not only did get out of the car, but then put the vehicle in drive and drove towards him, regardless of whether you think she was trying to turn the wheel or not and hit him. And it's that point where you'll see from this split screen where he fires. Play that, please. You can go frame by frame or however you wish to play it to make the point clear, but you'll see the puff of smoke when he fires the first shot. And you'll see, look on the right side. Okay, take it back, Take it back and play it frame by frame. Take it back. Play it frame by frame. Again. Everyone's seen the shot on the left quite a bit, and that was all over morning television and evening cable. Watch the shot on the right and again, watch to see the right before the puff of smoke will occur. Watch to see where he is in relationship to the car. Right when he shoots her. He's hit by her car. Okay? That seems to me to be a critical point on the question of under what circumstances did he shoot? He shot just after she hit him with the car. And Yemen said, I just ask you, does that not impact your view of the actions of the ICE official? I mean, they asked her to get out of the car. She didn't get out of the. And this leaves aside whatever she did earlier in the day that made them feel she was hostile to them. This is. She disregarded the request of law enforcement, and in reaction to that, she drove the car and hit him, and that's when he fired the first shot. I'm leaving aside the second two shots, but that's when she shot. Does that not change your view of this at all?

[Yemisi]

I feel like all the commentary that I've seen is that she was hostile to them. I watched somebody narrate the entire video and say she was angry at them, she wanted to hit them. That's injecting a lot of feeling.

[Mark]

But I'm not. But I'm not. I'm not saying that. I'm asking. I'm not. I'm not saying anything about her motive. I don't know why she was there. I don't know. Maybe she was just trying to drive away.

[Chad]

Maybe she was.

[Mark]

But if you're. Maybe. But if you're in a car and law enforcement tells you to get out of the car, and instead of getting out of the car, you accelerate and you hit one of the officers.

[Larry]

That's right.

[Mark]

That. That, to me, is that, to me, it takes the edge off of the notion that they're. That they acted rashly.

[Caller from Houston]

Yeah.

[Mark]

Does that not. Does that. I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to pick a fight.

[Yemisi]

With you or say you're wrong situation. Right. Two men get out of the vehicle, they point guns at you. I could understand why she would be panicked in that situation.

[Larry]

They didn't point guns at her. They didn't. The gun was not drawn until she started to drive at the officer.

[Yemisi]

She started to. She started to reverse a little bit.

[Larry]

No guns were drawn.

[Yemisi]

And then she moved forward a bit.

[Larry]

That's when the gun was drawn.

[Yemisi]

That looks when the gun was drawn. He was just trying to leave the scene. And we have seen plenty of interactions.

[Larry]

You don't know that, though.

[Mark]

Leave aside. Leave aside her motive and go back to what Larry started with, which is. It's a horrible thing. Loss of life. Okay? It's a horrible thing. We all. We all agree with that. Leaving that aside, if the only question is, is there justification for what he did in pulling out his gun and shooting Her. And so it's pretty clear from this video there'll be more from this video. He shot her when the car hit him. When she had, when they had asked her were law enforcement get out of the car. She declined to do that. And then she guns the car and, and she hits him. He's not looking at her. Three point turn. He's not looking at whether she's eventually going to turn. She hit him. The wheels are relatively straight at that moment and she hit him. He doesn't know, he doesn't know how much danger they're in. So I'm not, I'm not saying I'm siding with one side or the other. I'm just saying if you're just looking for clarity on an explanation of how he could have done what he did, it seems to me that that split screen does it. And I'm just, I'll just ask you again, why doesn't that explain it to you? I'm not, I'm not being argumentative. I'm trying to do what we do here. Conversations like no other. How can that not make you say, well, I get it, I get, I get in that moment why he might have done that.

[Yemisi]

I can understand, and I already said this, I can understand in a split second why an officer responds. I'm not a law enforcement officer in that kind of panicked, heightened emotional environment. I can understand why someone would fire a gun. I cannot understand shooting the woman in the head. But, but it's half a second, right? It's a split decision. But, but to me it just reads as a lack of training. If they're training to go, I, that.

[Larry]

Is exactly what they're trained to do. He actually, it's actually the opposite of the lack of training. Respectfully, you may see this is, yeah, they are there. They are in fact trained to stop the threat to themselves and to their fellow officers and to the other citizens on the street. They did not. Her state of mind is irrelevant here.

[Mark]

Okay, let's, let's, I'm sorry to interrupt. I'm starting to go ahead and take Fox News right now just to see their lower third says protesters face off with federal agents in Minnesota. So let's just look at a little bit this live, especially in these blue cities. They have realized that this is something that they can, for lack of a better term, weaponize for their own political purposes here. And very, very clearly, the protocol has been put in place that the locals are not going to help ICE no matter how dire the situation gets. If this crowd got what they clearly want, which is to overrun this federal building. Consider the fact that there does not seem to be one local police department member on scene there. If this were New York, in all of my experiences, even under some of the mayors that we've had, you would have pens set up protest areas. It would be done professionally, and then that's it. And by the way, that helps the protesters because then things don't escalate to the point that we saw yesterday. You want the locals handling this stuff at a lower level so that nobody is in. Okay, take that down. We'll keep monitoring it. And as you can see, this is. Larry, hold on just one second. This is being covered by all three primary cable news networks. Larry, go ahead.

[Larry]

I just wanted to coin a Seinfeld phrase. We live in a society. We are a civilization. We have rules. We have progressed here in Western civilization. And there are certain rules and standards that we have to live by if we're going to make this thing work. My oldest daughter is a liberal Democrat, and I love her to death. And she was a UCLA theater student, film student, during the Black Lives Matter protests, the George Floyd protests of 2020. And she marched in Los Angeles, in the streets of Los Angeles, while at the same time I was a talk show host on a talk radio station in Los Angeles. I talked to her before she went out to one of the big marches on Fairfax, right by CBS Studios. And I said, honey, I love you and I respect you, and I love that you've got the same passion for your beliefs that I have. I don't want to change your mind, but can you do me one favor? If you encounter police officers and the police give you orders and tell you, don't be here, be over there, stand over there, or if they tell you to in some way, stand down. Please follow the police officer's orders. You have to. That's how we got to live in this society. They may be wrong, and we can deal with that after the fact, but you got to follow law enforcement's orders in the heat of the moment. Otherwise, bad things happen. That's what happened here. That's what happened here.

[Mark]

Okay, hold on one second. Again, I don't read the chat. I glance at it. Don't accuse me, please, of oversimplifying this. I'm really not. Don't accuse me of a siding with one side or the other. I'm really not. I'm just trying to be part of a conversation like no other about this, where we're really trying to grapple with what happened and what it means and put it in a broader context of this entire debate about why is why are thousands, scores, hundreds of ICE officials on the ground in a city in a state that the government officials don't want them, although many of the citizens, I'm sure, are happy to have them there. We're breaking format today because it's an important conversation and we've got two great guests here to help us through it. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to take a question or two from the community on this topic, please. I assume most of the hands up are on this topic then. Then we'll see where we are and we'll cover some other stuff at the end. But we're going to stay with this for now. Jacqueline, welcome in. Tell folks who don't know where you are and what's on your mind for Larry and for Yemen, please.

[Yemisi]

My. Oh, hi, Mark. Okay. So I'm here to talk about the dietary guidelines. So I'm probably not the best person.

[Mark]

Oh, got to put you come back to me. Okay, I'll put you back. The dietary guidelines. I confess we may not get them to get to the dietary.

[Larry]

I love me the upside down pyramid.

[Yemisi]

I forgot that happened.

[Mark]

Yeah. Yeah. And they're celebrating it today. Jane, welcome in. Do you want to, you want to talk about Minnesota, I hope?

[Yemisi]

Yes.

[Mark]

Okay. Tell folks who don't know where you are and then what's on your mind.

[Yemisi]

All right. Good morning. I am in Atlanta suburbs and just a quick comment because I've watched like everyone a lot of different news, but I did watch Abby Phillips last night with Scott Jennings. So forward looking. I, I don't know if you heard his comment, but and it's terrible. That just awful, awful, awful situation. Heartbreaking. But he said going forward, he called this everything around it with the cars following these i5 because they are there following the law. These are that I mean that's the law. If you want to change the law, go to Congress. But he calls these convoys. He says what's happening is this is almost a form of and this is what he said. I political vigilanteism. What do you think about what do.

[Larry]

You think about that statement?

[Yemisi]

That to me was pretty powerful.

[Mark]

Yeah. I mean, look, there have been instances in other cities of assaults on these officers. And then in Texas we saw some detainees were killed. Not clear exactly what happened in that instance. But but this is, this is what happened. Now we don't know what she did. Again, I'm super curious to Know what she did that morning. But yes, thoughts, thoughts, thoughts on how some communities have received the presence of ICE officers with whether you want to call it being vigilantes or whatever, thoughts on that. Because you said the people in that neighborhood were making a statement and they were. But thoughts about the methods by which people have done that.

[Larry]

Yeah.

[Yemisi]

I will say for this scenario where the shooting happened to me, the long shot of it looked like just a few neighbors all outside wondering what ICE was doing. I think different than when you've seen scenes in Chicago where J.B. pritzker and the mayor were very, very clear, maybe in the same way the Minnesota lawmakers of not wanting ice. But I mean, Chicago runs a little bit different than the Minnesota nice folks. I mean, but it differs, right? Because the ICE exists. ICE is right down the street from me here in Washington, D.C. but we're used to federal law enforcement officers all over. We're used to so many police. And I also think it differs on where you're from. You said Atlanta suburbs. I'm from the Atlanta suburbs. To the most engagement I had when I lived in the suburbs of Atlanta was the police directing traffic after a football game. So I also have to take into effect that there are some of these communities that have had consistent run ins with police officers and now you layer law enforcement on top of it. So there's a lot more tension that's there. That's different than how I grew up or how you live. Those things just don't happen in the suburbs of Atlanta. And I mean, look, a police officer comes up. To me, I was raised black in the South. You comply and you get out of the car. To me, there are just certain situations where it feels a bit more gray.

[Mark]

Larry, thank you for that, Larry.

[Larry]

Yeah, and by the way, thanks for pointing out Chicago and Illinois because we've seen, again, protesters and agitators getting in the way of ICE vehicles and using their own vehicles to try to threaten. We've had ICE officers shot at. This didn't happen in a vacuum yesterday. The reaction from these ICE officers, here's number one. And number two, again, we live in a civilization, we live in a constitutional republic where the people of Minnesota who don't like ice, they are very well represented right now, from the mayor to the attorney general to the governor, they don't need to be in the street blocking their activities. And one last thing about that neighborhood where ICE was and spoke very eloquently about the neighborhood wanting to know and wanting to be activated about ICE in their neighborhood. And they didn't like it. What about that neighbor who didn't get out on the street? The neighbor who was very concerned about the illegal immigrant criminal element in their neighborhood, who has been worried about potential crime or actual crime that has taken place. They didn't get out on the streets because they looked out the window, they saw that ICE was there, and they said, thank God someone's actually doing something about the criminal, illegal alien element in my neighborhood. That person in that neighborhood deserves to have a voice, too.

[Mark]

Yeah, Jane, thank you. I want to read something that is a colloquy on X between two people. A woman who describes herself as a former defense attorney and the Vice President of the United States who just replied tweet to her. Here's this woman named Janine Yonis. Put that up. If you need me to find the number, I can. This is a post from her. She says, I'm a former defense attorney and currently a civil liberties attorney with no political dog in this fight. I watched the video at least 10 times from different angles and at different speeds and waited to offer an opinion, which I still reserve the right to change if additional information changes the calculus. It is very clear that the officers instigated the confrontation. Larry, do you agree with that?

[Larry]

No. And she's not. She does have a dog in the fight, but I'll get to that later.

[Mark]

Okay. The woman initially tried to wave them past her. Larry, do you agree with that?

[Larry]

No.

[Mark]

Okay. ICE officers have no authority to search a US citizen or arrest her unless there's a probable cause to believe she's harboring undocumented individuals. Not a contention here. Larry, do you agree with that?

[Larry]

That is true. Except in this case because she was impeding their. Their. Their activities. They had every right to question her.

[Mark]

Ok.

[Yemisi]

I still feel like there was room in the road.

[Mark]

Yeah. Okay. A woman surrounded by masked armed men who have no law enforcement authority over her has every. Has every right to try to escape. Larry, do you agree with that?

[Larry]

Well, in a vacuum, yes. You're surrounded by masked men. Of course you want to get out of there. But that's not.

[Mark]

But is she allowed? But is she allowed? Is she allowed to escape?

[Larry]

These weren't random masked men. These were federal.

[Mark]

I'm asking you, in this instance, is this lawyer correct?

[Larry]

She did not have the right to escape because she knew they were law enforcement and she was. She was compelled to comply with their lawful orders.

[Mark]

Video shows her steering wheel is turned to the right. Clearly an attempt to leave without hitting anyone and steer clear of the officer. Standing towards the front of her car. That is incorrect. I don't need to ask Larry. Their officer had time to step to the side, which is where he was when he shot her. Not true. Even a real police officer would not have had the right to shoot her for trying to flee. This is well established in the case law. Deadly force may not be used simply to prevent someone from, from getting away. Given that ICE officers had no law enforcement authority to begin with, and the video footage shows she was trying to escape a perceived threat, not to kill anyone, the crime, and she's referring to the crime of the ICE officer, is all the more inexcusable. Okay, so that's what she said. Here's the Vice President taking time from his busy day to respond. And his, his thesis statement, his opening statement is very typical of our Vice President. This is preposterous. He says, first of all, she's not waving the officers through and has no right to do so. Even if she were, she's waving another car through before the officers approach her car. That is correct. Second, the officers are not randomly searching her. They are approaching her vehicle because she is violating the law. Namely, she is obstructing a law enforcement operation. That is correct. You're not allowed to walk up to or drive up to people who are enforcing the law and make it harder for them to do their jobs. Yemen city. Agree with that? Do you agree with that? Okay. Third, this defense attorney is drawing a meaningful distinction between an ICE officer and a quote, real police officer. Again, you're not allowed to interrupt a lawful engage enforcement operation, which is exactly what this woman was doing. Embassy agree with that? She was interrupting them.

[Yemisi]

She was interrupting. To me, it looked like she was waving a car to go through and that car decided to stop and those officers got out. It didn't look she was actively interrupting them.

[Larry]

Right. Okay.

[Mark]

This is, to me the critical point the Vice President makes. It echoes the point I've been making throughout the program. Fourth, the officer didn't discharge his weapon to prevent her from fleeing. When he discharged his weapon, she had pointed the vehicle at him and pressed the gas. He discharged his weapon in self defense. And the other angles of the video showed the woman clearly hit the officer with her car while etc. Accelerating. The gaslighting is off the charts and I'm having none of it. This guy was doing his job. He tried to stop her, she tried to stop him from doing his job. When he approached her car, she tried to hit him. Finally he says a tragedy, absolutely, but a tragedy that falls on this woman and all of the radicals who teach people that immigration is the one type of law that rioters are allowed to interfere with. Except for the fact that he ended his sentence with a preposition. Pretty well done. Little strange thing for the vice President to engage. Larry, what do you know about the lawyer who did the original tweet?

[Larry]

She represents an anti Arab discrimination organization that is linked with supporting the Palestinian cause. So I do think that she, she tends to take up more liberal causes. To say that she doesn't have a dog in the fight, I think is probably not entirely accurate.

[Mark]

Larry, can you be a vegetarian and a member of the nra? Yes, you can.

[Larry]

You can.

[Mark]

You can. Chad, welcome.

[Larry]

Analogous.

[Mark]

It is totally now, it's the most fun, it's the most on point analogy I've ever made. Chad, welcome in. Thank you for being here. Tell folks who don't know where you are what's on your mind for our guests.

[Chad]

Hey, I'm in Dallas, Texas and yeah, I just been watching this along with everybody else and I really appreciate two way tonight, last night and the conversation that was, that was had there. I rewatched it this morning because I couldn't find anything else that was that level headed, you know, and a good conversation to look at everything from every angle. And this morning's conversation has been great. I just, I guess my question, I don't know that I'm going to have an answer or get an answer for it because I don't know if anybody has the answer, but if anybody on.

[Mark]

The planet, it's these two. So you're in.

[Larry]

Good.

[Mark]

Yeah.

[Larry]

Right.

[Chad]

How do we get past this? How do we get past the moment that something like this happens? The red flag and the blue flag goes up. This is not political. I mean, it's political in the way that the leaders have made things political, made everything into a political discussion. It's a tragic loss of life. It's also law enforcement doing their job. This is just insane to me that this is. You've mentioned a couple of times, Mark, that, you know, I haven't talked to anybody that voted for Trump that thinks this way or anybody that voted for Kamala Harris who thinks this way. I don't care. I don't care who you voted for. Yeah, you know, her, her life was lost because she was really, she was interfering with a, you know, with law enforcement. And it's, it's. Law enforcement officers do make mistakes. I don't think that, you know, I think they're going to live with us for the rest of their life in a terrible way, too. But, you know, this is all preventable. And I think the leaders in Minnesota, the governor, the mayor, they're just as much to blame for these types of things as Trump is in the way that he talks.

[Mark]

I hate it.

[Chad]

I despise it. They don't want rights, but then they're the reason this happens. Our school shut today, you know.

[Mark]

Yeah. Before I ask our guests to weigh in on what you said, how do you feel about Secretary Noemi saying she was a domestic terrorist? How do you feel about that?

[Chad]

Yeah, I think that's not a smart thing to do. And the investigation isn't complete. I think her. I think her overall statement, her last conference last night was actually really well done. I think she hit her right tone. But then you add that in, and I think that's where you do that. That partisan thing where it's like, this is the red meat to my people, you know?

[Mark]

Okay, thoughts? Yemen. See, and then Larry, on the original question, Chai asked, Please.

[Yemisi]

Yeah. I first want to say, agree with. Glad that two way exists in this way, because Larry and I obviously see this differently. But this. These are probably some of the only spaces where people are going to talk about it, at least engage in a conversation about it and. And still see the other side. So thankful for that. And also, this feels so reminiscent of the moments I was thinking about when Larry was talking about his daughter, of the moments of, like, the Black Lives Matter. And it's interesting that actual police officers are secondary in this whole situation. And now it feels like it's the community versus ice. And now we're kind of back into this same cycle. And I'm looking around and I'm just like, guys, we've done this already. We did this, and everybody did in the same way that everybody's doing. I mean, now the calls are starting. Abolish eyes. I think we have to draw a line here some way, in the same way that we said abolish the police. And now, of course, we know Dems are more centrist on this, saying, well, let's reform the police. And so if we're going to have conversations about the way ICE is operating in these communities, if we start with abolish ice, then the conversation never happens. It needs to be okay. If people in the community are uncomfortable with the way that they think ICE engages with members of the community, then can we have a conversation about that? I'm not sure that Secretary Noem is the right person to help lead an agency that really Is that really impedes on the lives of everyday people? No other agency really has an effect on some of the, on some of these day to day citizens. And I think you need somebody with maybe a cooler hand, a softer touch, especially when you're operating with President Trump.

[Larry]

Larry, there's a lot to unpack there. Let me focus on what we agree on. I agree with you on so much of what you said, especially that we're not going to get anywhere when. And the call is to abolish ice, which sadly is slowly becoming what appears to be a mainstream position of a major political party in this country. And I want to also be. We do look at this differently, but I'm not. I understand why Yemassi and many people on her side of this political equation look at this the way they look at it. It's a Rorschach test. Right? To use an old cliche. I get, I do understand. If you believe that ICE is acting illegally and unconstitutionally, if you believe, like Tim Walsh said, that they're the Gestapo, if you believe that it is wrong to enforce our duly passed immigration laws in this country and in ICE going to these neighborhoods to find criminal illegal immigrants and deport them, if you think that that is wrong and in some way un American, then yes, I understand why you would take to the streets to protest. The problem is, and I think, to answer your question, Chad, the way we get past this is to go back and agree on the fundamentals that we used to always agree on, that we have a constitution, that if law enforcement is acting improperly, you take that to court and you challenge it, which is what Democrats have done all year and they have lost. The laws that are being enforced right now by ICE and by DHS are laws that were passed by Democrats in Congress a couple of decades ago and signed into law by Democrat presidents and Republicans, Republican presidents. Those laws have been on the books for years. They've just been ignored. The way you make change in this country is through the ballot box. And we just had an election and we have a candidate who ran and said, I'm going to enforce these laws and here's how I'm going to do it. And he's doing exactly what he said. And if the people don't like it, then they go to their elected representatives, they win the next election and they change it. They don't march in the streets and impede peace officers, law enforcement, who are just trying to do their job. That's how we get past this. We go back to that. We go Back to what we agree on, which is use the process that our founders gave us.

[Mark]

Chad, thank you. Great question. Grateful to you, Haley. Welcome in. Eager to hear what your thoughts on this are. And I know you've been active in the chat where some people have been writing a lot of smack, I've noticed.

[Yemisi]

Unfortunately, just a bit.

[Mark]

Yes, Haley, go ahead.

[Larry]

So.

[Haley]

I feel like a lot of people here who are smack dab in the middle who really believe that what they saw yesterday was horrific and horrible. I have questions, though, and like, and I don't know so much if it's about the questions of the exact instance that happened, which could be debated from both sides. And I do really see where the officer was panicked. And this is what he. Like, this is my interpretation of just this is what he thought he needed to do to save his life. And I can also see where the driver herself was panicked and she tried to flee. I mean, that's from my eyes, from my four eyes that I have here. That's what I saw is two people who were very panicked. One tried to flee and the other felt like his life was in danger. And that's what happened.

[Yemisi]

That's.

[Haley]

That's my interpretation. What bothers me so much more is I feel like we can't even ask questions like, why did he shoot more than once? Why is this the training that they're being dealt with to begin with? To me, regardless of if it's valid or not, the amount of cases that we see where cops are using.

[Yemisi]

Force.

[Haley]

Deadly force, is a question that I think that is okay to be asked. I think that we can ask questions on. Is the training that they're going through legitimate? Is it something that we need to be doing in every single case? Like, my entire, like, again, very, very tragic. And I can see where everybody comes on and lands on one side of the aisle, but I don't understand why we're jumping on top of people who have questions about this. Why we're, you know, condemning people who think that the officer was heroic. Like, it's. It's very easy to say that this wasn't murder, and it's very easy to say that this wasn't, you know, he was 100% justified and he's going to. To be fine. And like, there's. So that's just where I am.

[Mark]

Okay, very good. Thank you for that, Larry. Thoughts.

[Larry]

Thank you. I appreciate that, Haley. And I don't think that I agree she panicked. I think she did panic. I think she wanted to get out of there. I don't think he panicked. I think the police officer acted professionally. And the answer to your question, why did he fire more than once? That's what they're trained to do. Again, maybe the argument here is they shouldn't be trained to do what they do. This is what it looks like.

[Haley]

Exactly. And that's what I'm trying to say is not so much. He might have done exactly what he was trained to do. But maybe we need to start taking asking questions. Maybe the training here, we need to.

[Yemisi]

Look at it again.

[Mark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Larry]

A worthy conversation.

[Mark]

Yeah. And of course, and of course, to state the obvious, both sides say there was no coordination between state and local because they don't, the locals don't want to help this ICE operation. That is a, that is a suburban neighborhood. Vin Weber last night on 289, who lives several blocks away. It's a normal neighborhood, not, not far from downtown. You shouldn't be having that level of lawlessness that the ICE doesn't have help from the local police. The local police should be on that block helping sort things out. There shouldn't be a barricade by a citizen.

[Larry]

That's a super important point. And thank you. Because I meant to make it earlier because people are saying, well, why isn't this activity going on in red states? Because those states are not sanctuaries, because they actually are cooperating with ICE officials. We see criminal illegal aliens being handed over to ICE, but they're not in a street with 40 cops surrounding to make sure that there's, you know, no, no criminal activity or no problem, and that it's safe for the law officers in those states. The criminals are handed over in the county jail because they haven't declared themselves a sanctuary state or a sanctuary city like Minnesota.

[Mark]

If there was an. I don't know what ICE was doing. Again, there's more unanswered questions. Why was ICE in that neighborhood? What was their actual mission yesterday? But if an ICE presence of people with weapons showed up on my block in Manhattan, I would want there to be New York City cops there, even if the mayor of New York City didn't, didn't agree that I should be there. And it's not a total hypothetical because they could come here and my mayor probably wouldn't send local cops, but I hope he would and I hope that ICE would reach out. Yesterday, in that evening event that the secretary had, she said she talked to the governor. I've not been able to learn what they talked about, but there just has to be more communication. You can't have armed ICE officials in these neighborhoods with no insufficient training. Yemen. Thoughts on what Haley raised, please?

[Yemisi]

Yeah. First, Zoran's not sending cops to your neighborhood.

[Mark]

I hope he would.

[Yemisi]

Sending additional police.

[Larry]

I hope he would. I'm giving him a tip.

[Yemisi]

The Haley. Your point about. For me, I, I just keep looking at this video and I just think about how panicked this woman is, and I really do hate the narrative that she was an agitator that she hated. We don't know if she, if she absolutely hated ice. I think it was a, it was a woman that. Look, I gotta, I gotta say to y'. All, I'm shocked that a 37 year old white woman in a Honda Pilot was shot by law enforcement officers. I. That to me was, was wild in the first place. When, when I saw the video of it being shot, I was like, oh, wow. Okay. I just think it was a suburban woman living in this neighborhood who obviously didn't want ICE there, but not in a way, not in a way to inflict harm on them.

[Mark]

So we don't know. We don't know.

[Larry]

We know that she lives in that neighborhood.

[Chad]

No, we don't.

[Mark]

I don't think, I don't think she does. But, but I do take.

[Yemisi]

I do understand.

[Mark]

We don't know why she was there.

[Haley]

I do understand what you're saying, Embassy. Because I'm a 33 year old white woman and I know exactly how I would act in that situation. I would, I would be terrified and panicked. I know that that would probably be the same exact thing that I would do.

[Yemisi]

Just because.

[Mark]

No. Hey, look, Haley, if they said get out of the car, you get out of the car.

[Larry]

You'd get out of the car, you get out.

[Mark]

But I don't know that you get.

[Larry]

Out of the car.

[Mark]

You get out of the car.

[Larry]

Would you have parked your car in the middle of the street, impeding law enforcement?

[Mark]

You would not have parked.

[Haley]

I would try to get away.

[Mark]

Yeah, you wouldn't park, you wouldn't park your car perpendicular in the street and you wouldn't refuse them when they approached the car and said, get out of the car. You would go like this and you'd get out of the car. I don't know why she didn't. But again, let's learn about why she was there. What was their mission and what was her mission? We just don't know. And to me, that speaks to a lot of the question of how they ended up in that tragic moment. Have to have a little bit more context of why she was There. We haven't heard it. And I also say, and this. Well, I'm not going to say it because not going to court trouble with 11 minutes to go. Haley. Thank you. Okay, let's look at you. I may, I may, I may court trouble. But let me. I got to get a couple quick ads and then we'll go back to conversation. Two great sponsors for us. We're grateful to them for their support. [e-mail] are giving you 20% off now. Go to takelean.com to help lose weight this year with that fad. Diets, cabbage soup, injectables, raw food. Average person, when they hit 60, has lost hundreds of pounds up and down. That is called weight cycling and is not healthy for you. It is not the right way to lose weight. This product, these products from Lean were created by doctors and they're an important part of learning how to lose weight in a healthy way. Maintaining healthy blood sugar, controlling appetite and cravings, and burning fat by converting it to energy. All their products available to you right now. Go to take lean.com use the promo code 2WMM. Promo code 2WMN. Takelean.com 20% off to lose weight a healthy way this year and to keep it off. Again, it's takelean.com and the promo code is 2WMM.

[James Patterson]

I'm James Patterson. I write way too many books. Welcome to Hungry Dogs. The title comes from my maternal grandmother, Isabel Zelvis Morris. Nan used to always say, hungry dogs run faster, James. And I've been running fast ever since. Here's what will be coming your way soon. And this is a really terrific list. I think you'll hear from some incredible people like Stacey Abrams.

[Mark]

Yay.

[James Patterson]

BJ Novak.

[Mark]

Yay.

[James Patterson]

Kathy Bates, Dolly Parton, Josh Gad. And Pope Leo. Okay, maybe not Pope Leo, but who knows? Maybe he'll show up. Hungry dogs run faster. Thank you, Grandma, for turning me into a hopeless, obsessive compulsive. Listen to Hungry Dogs with James Patterson. That'd be me on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Mark]

Thank you for your attention to that matter and to this one. Our other great sponsor day, Cozy Earth. The folks at Cozy Earth are also giving you a big discount. 20% off with, ironically, the same promo code, 2wmm. Post holiday. But the discount continues. 20% off everything on the site. The bamboo sheets. Most comfortable and softest sheets you've ever had. A great gift and great for yourself. Crafted from viscous from bamboo, they stay soft even after you use them Bubble cuddle blanket. Luxury bubble cuddle blanket allows you to enjoy a combination of comfort and style that you will love. And I've said it before, your animals will love it. Maybe not a bird, but a dog or a cat will love the bubble cuddle blanket. And, and then finally, of course, the pants. All the pants are extraordinary and I recommend them to you if you've never tried them. Those of you who have tried them, send me lovely notes about how wonderful they are. They're comfortable and you can wear them anywhere. Again, give the gift of comfort that lasts beyond the holidays and carries into a cozy new year. Or buy some for yourself. Go to cozyearth.com promo code 2 wmm cozyearth.com 20off. And in the post purchase survey, be sure to say that Larry insisted. Insisted that you buy the pants. All right, here we go.

[Larry]

Are we gonna respond to Yemeni's race bomb that she just threw in the.

[Mark]

Middle of the room?

[Larry]

I just, I, I.

[Mark]

Took it. I was fine. I was fine with it. I sort of knew what you meant. What do you, what do you want to say about it, Larry?

[Larry]

First of all, I didn't know that the victim is white. First of all, I didn't see that information. Although to be fair, if she were black, we probably would know.

[Mark]

The pictures suggest she's white.

[Larry]

50% of offers here involved shootings involve white people in America. So the odds are that if someone.

[Mark]

Surprised, it's that low. Surprise, it's that low.

[Larry]

Yeah. 50% white, non Hispanic, 27% black.

[Mark]

All right. All right, Larry, you want to say something?

[Larry]

So the odds are if a cop is shooting someone, it's a white dude.

[Mark]

Yeah. Okay. Aaron, welcome in. Thank you for being here. Tell folks who don't know where you are what's on your mind.

[Caller from Houston]

I'm in Houston. My question is, is this a good result?

[Mark]

Is what a good result?

[Caller from Houston]

What happened yesterday in Minneapolis, is this a good result?

[Larry]

No, there's no good.

[Mark]

No. Horrible.

[Caller from Houston]

Okay, so Larry's right. This is the cop did do exactly what he's trained to do. The technique is called self jeopardizing. You can go online and find dozens and dozens and dozens of videos of the exact same circumstance. There's the suspect in the car. Cop goes and stands exactly right by the headlight, puts his knee or thigh in front of the car. And as soon as the car goes into gear, there's a bolt hole through the window, killing the suspect or shooting the suspect or if the suspect survives the interaction. And they now get to charge the suspect with attempted murder on a cop. It is a technique that is designed to optimize risk to the suspect.

[Mark]

Yep.

[Caller from Houston]

And minimal or neg negligible risk to the cop. Okay. And, you know, I also agree with Larry that we live in a society, and I'm a Trump voter. I support these deportations. I support what ICE is doing, but I also recognize that if I want it to continue, they have to do so professionally.

[Mark]

Okay. Yemen.

[Larry]

See?

[Yemisi]

Great.

[Mark]

Okay.

[Yemisi]

It's. ICE has existed in Democratic administrations, and I think the way that the president is using ICE is in line, like Larry said, with the way that he ran his campaign. We all knew that ICE was going to come into different neighborhoods, was gonna come into your community, but by now, it's just, can we do three more years of this? It just feels like copy and paste in every single city. And I'm going back to my Kristi Noem thing, Larry, and I'm surprised you didn't say anything, but I'm running out of time on Kristi Noem. When they were talking about maybe Glenn Youngkin replacing her, I got a little bit excited. As somebody who used to work in Virginia politics, I just think for the next three years of the Trump administration, if he really wants to accomplish everything with immigration and also maybe get some folks on his side, there are people who agree that we do have borders. There are people who agree that we should have deportations. It's just whenever it comes down to ICE and the way that they are used, that's where we seem to kind of delineate. Delineate. So.

[Larry]

Thank you.

[Mark]

Thank you.

[Larry]

Well, the demonization of ICE precedes Kristine Noem. I did not like her use of the term domestic terrorism either. I don't think that the evidence supported that at the time, and I still don't think the evidence supports it. So I don't know if she should lose her job because of that necessarily, though. And. And, yeah, I mean, listen to your point. Thank you for. For, you know, backing up based on your understanding of law enforcement procedure with the question. You're right. I mean, it there. This is not a good result. And this will only further the conversation in our country about whether I should be doing what they're doing in these communities, even though the American people voted for. For it. The. The way around it, again, is for local jurisdictions to stop trying to fight federal law. I mean, we had Tim Walls yesterday saying that he was going to call in the National Guard to protect against federal law enforcement. That's. I mean, what is he, Larry?

[Mark]

This will happen.

[Caller from Houston]

This will happen, Larry, again next week, in the week after and the week after and the week after. And I'm not talking about. Yes, okay, like this is, my point is that we do live in a society. And the idea that she was doing something wrong and therefore she had it coming, you know, that is not.

[Larry]

Those aren't words that I would ever use. And I would not say she had it coming. I'm saying she shouldn't have done what she did and law enforcement followed their path.

[Caller from Houston]

This is thematically, thematically, the facts on the ground are different, but this is thematically the exact same as Ashley Babbitt. She was somewhere where she shouldn't have been doing something she shouldn't have been doing, but she wasn't really a risk to that cop. You know.

[Larry]

I think the woman in the car was much more of a quantifiable risk to the police officer in Minneapolis than Ashley Davis.

[Caller from Houston]

So I think you could. So let's look at this, let's look at this tactic, this self jeopardizing tactics. This is actually why the point I wanted to make, if we all agree that this is a bad result, why does the inquiry stop? This cop is going to be cleared, he can't be sued, he's not going to lose his job. Like we can put all of that aside.

[Mark]

I'm not sure that's true, but go ahead.

[Caller from Houston]

I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure. But, but if we all agree that this is a bad result, we do live in a society, we do want professional police. Why don't we take a look at this technique and others and say, okay, maybe the point isn't to maximize the risk to the suspect's life. Maybe we want our police to take people who do something wrong into custody so that they can stand trial. Why don't we optimize for that result?

[Larry]

Well, because I don't think that it's fair to have a cop stand trial for, as we all agree, following his procedures.

[Caller from Houston]

No, no, I just told you he's not. I just told you he's not going to trial.

[Larry]

So the best way to address that, and it is a worthy conversation, is to address how our law enforcement are being trained and what their rules of engagement should be or could be, et cetera, et cetera. I think the problem here, though, if I can get to the crux of it, is that we have a political party in this country who benefit from the mob in the street. They benefit from the protests, they benefit from demonizing ice. I know that because the fundraising emails are already out there and that's the problem. If they could act like grownups in the room and respect federal law that they seem to be fine with when they're in the White House, then we can get somewhere.

[Mark]

Okay, Aaron, thank you. Need to do a little bit of stuff here. Very conscious of the time. First of all, we discussed whether the word use of the word murder was appropriate earlier. Here's someone who's decided to use the word murder on X about 20 minutes ago. Last this is the what the person wrote. Last night at the corner where an ICE agent murdered Renee Good, thousands of Minnesotans gathered in the frigid dark to protest her killing. Larry, you talk about kerosene. Do you know who tweeted that?

[Larry]

I don't.

[Mark]

Hillary Clinton.

[Larry]

Oh, come on.

[Mark]

Hillary Clinton. Last night at the corner where an ICE agent murdered Renee Good.

[Yemisi]

As a former 2016 staff, I'm on brand.

[Mark]

Yeah, yeah. Murder. Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton said it's murder. Very, very grateful to you for, for being here. And again, our tagline conversations like no other. I said it about two way tonight last night. I'll say it about this YouTube. YouTube guided a conversation that just I don't think existed. Not just on cable news, but I don't think it's existed anywhere in America for the last 24 hours. So very grateful to you both for being here. We did not get to the President's two hour interview with the New York Times. They did video of it so there's going to be a lot of video coming out. It was late yesterday so they published a few short stories about what the President said. Amongst the present thing the president did during their three hours with them besides give them a two hour interview. He let them listen in off the record to his hour long conversation with the president of Columbia, not the university but the country. That is a Trump go to. When I used to sit in his office before he was president, he loves letting people listen to his calls on speakerphone. It's a, it's a weird trait that he has. So there'll be plenty about that on two way tonight as well as the fact the President's on Hannity tonight. So this program tomorrow will have plenty to cover there. We didn't talk about Venezuela, Greenland, China, Russia, health care affordability, Governor Shapiro announcing for president for reelection today, Rahm Emanuel's hidden hidden secret event in Mississippi or our long delayed discussion of the Senate 2026 map. Graham Platner's wife just did her first interview in which she says they're going to Europe to do IVF because it's too expensive here in America. In any event, 4 o', clock, the group chat today. Please don't miss it two way tonight at 6. I'll see you then. The Moynihan Report at 7. And then tomorrow at 9am Eastern Time, we'll be back here for another episode of this program. Grateful to everybody who raised their hands, part of the two Way community. To heck with those of you who put smack in the chat. And thank you to our two great co hosts today for joining us and producing a conversation like no other. I will see everybody at 6, and we'll see you tomorrow at 9am Have a great day, everybody. Thank you. Larry and Yemisi.

[Larry]

Thanks, y'.

[Yemisi]

All.

[Mark]

Thank you.

[Yemisi]

It's good.