Will Disney Lift Jimmy Kimmel's Suspension if He Won't Apologize for His Charlie Kirk Remarks?

Summary

---

2WAY Morning Meeting — Episode Summary

Episode: Will Disney Lift Jimmy Kimmel's Suspension if He Won't Apologize for His Charlie Kirk Remarks?
Date: September 18, 2025
Host: Mark Halperin
Co-hosts: Sean Spicer, Dan Pfeiffer

---

Overview

This episode centers on the controversial suspension of Jimmy Kimmel by Disney, following remarks Kimmel made about the late Charlie Kirk. The hosts dig into multiple facets of the story: Kimmel’s return prospects, the broader pressures within the television industry, the shifting landscape of media ownership, the political implications of Charlie Kirk’s assassination, and the intensifying polarization in American public discourse.

Listeners are also treated to a variety of live audience questions exploring how the media environment can be made less toxic and who may rise in Charlie Kirk’s place as a leading conservative voice.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Will Jimmy Kimmel Return to the Air?

• Sean Spicer shares his experience as a former guest, describing ABC’s reluctance to feature him again, noting, "We can't humanize Trump people," as Kimmel’s EP once told him ([01:22]).
• Both Sean and Dan Pfeiffer doubt Kimmel’s return, citing affiliate pressure:
  • Sean: "I don't know how you bring somebody back after that." ([02:47])
  • Dan: "The affiliates won't allow it." ([02:53])
• Mark highlights Disney’s attempt to appear open to Kimmel’s return for internal morale, but he sees no real path back ([02:56]).

2. Free Speech vs. Private Sector Discipline

• Citing a tweet from Brit Hume, the panel agrees the First Amendment does not protect a TV host from employer discipline ([07:01]).
• Conversation on FCC involvement:
  • Dan: "I would have liked the outcome a lot better if the chairman of the FCC had not involved himself in it." ([07:02])
  • Sean warns against the government dictating remedies, reflecting concerns over the FCC’s indirect pressure on affiliate licenses ([08:07]).
• On late-night TV’s political evolution, Sean notes: "If Jimmy Kimmel wants to make himself a new show, which is what he has done ... that’s a political show that used to be a comedy show" ([08:49]).

3. Media Ownership & the Changing Landscape

• The panel discusses concerns about conservative financiers like Larry Ellison and Trump allies buying major outlets (CBS, X, possible attempts at CNN and TikTok) ([13:48]-[14:09]).
• Dan: "You got to try to compete in the marketplace of ideas ... go to audiences that aren’t friendly" ([15:09]).
• Sean: "The left's dominance of so many institutions has caused the right ... to create alternative institutions" ([16:59]).
• The group agrees that cable and legacy TV is declining, and that winning in the marketplace now demands broader debate and outreach.

4. Disney’s Calculus in Pulling Kimmel

• Mark asks why Disney CEO Bob Iger pulled Kimmel: Was it affiliates, PR, politics, or backlash?
  • Dan: "They know that they have a problem in the middle of the country with the perception" ([19:03]).
  • Sean points to the real-time threat from NextStar and Sinclair affiliates pulling Kimmel’s show ([20:46]).
• The broader TV industry faces declining ratings, even for legacy brands ([20:27]).

5. What Fills the Late-Night Vacuum?

• Speculation about the future of the 11:35 PM slot:
  • Possibilities include political talk or sports formats, drawing comparison to Greg Gutfeld’s success ([21:49]).

6. Political Fallout from Charlie Kirk’s Assassination

• Dan Pfeiffer believes Democrats are on the back foot, taken aback by how Trump-aligned figures have energized their base in response ([23:25]).
• Large gatherings and vigils, especially in politically mixed cities, reflect the intensity and possible revival-like energy among conservatives ([48:41]).
• Panel notes the risk for both parties: if emotions run too hot, the backlash from middle America or swing voters could be decisive ([27:38]-[28:49]).
• Sean: "If you can keep the oxygen out of a story for 48 hours, it starts to die ... One of the things about this Charlie tragedy is ... a big movement this weekend to reinvigorate the movement" ([25:43]).

7. Audience Engagement: Rebuilding Civil Discourse

• Listeners like John (from Philly), Emily (from NY/TX), and Keegan (Chicago) raise questions about how to foster a less toxic climate ([35:28],[44:48],[54:29]).
• Sean: “There has to be an agreement on all sides—let them talk ... you’re not going to be canceled just for speaking” ([41:42]).
• Dan: “At some point ... the marketplace will reward working cooperation and a measured tone ... That’s where leaders can step above the waterline” ([42:13]).

8. Who Will Succeed Charlie Kirk as a Movement Leader?

• No consensus “next Kirk”; JD Vance and perhaps Erica Kirk (Charlie's wife) are floated, but the panel primarily sees a burgeoning movement rather than a singular leader ([51:59]).
• Sean: "What [Kirk] is inspiring might not be one Charlie Kirk. It might be 10,000 Charlie Kirks or 100,000 Charlie Kirks" ([51:59]).
• Dan relates Kirk's potential legacy to the generational energy that followed the assassinations of JFK, RFK, and MLK ([52:07]).

9. Obama, Kirk, and the Boundaries of Criticism After Assassination

• A pointed audience question challenges Dan on Barack Obama criticizing Charlie Kirk posthumously. Dan pivots to acknowledge the emotional salience for Democrats and defers to Obama’s generally measured tone ([56:55]-[60:59]).
• Sean raises hypocrisy: when people on the right are criticized posthumously, it’s accepted, but not for high-profile left-leaning figures ([64:33]).

10. The Kamala Harris Book Leak & Democratic Leadership Weaknesses

• The panel reacts critically to Harris’s claim (in a leaked book excerpt) that she bypassed Pete Buttigieg as a possible running mate because “picking a gay man would have been too risky” ([33:27]).
• Dan: "It speaks incredibly poorly of Kamala Harris ... Nothing says strength and leadership like I wish I could, but I couldn't because it didn’t look right" ([33:27]).
• Sean: "I agree with Dan ... This says I have no, no fortitude. I won't do the right thing. I'm politically weak" ([34:16]).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sean Spicer on Kimmel’s Editorial Policy ([01:22]):
  “We cannot be funny with you. We can't humanize Trump people.”

• Dan Pfeiffer on the affiliate dilemma ([02:53]):
  “The affiliates won’t allow it.”

• Mark Halperin on Democratic media anxiety ([13:48]):
  “Dan Pfeiffer says we need to do something about this … The right now owns CBS, the right now owns X, trying to buy TikTok, may get CNN.”

• Sean Spicer on the right building alternatives ([16:59]):
  “The left's dominance of so many institutions has caused the right ... to create alternative institutions.”

• Emily (audience, Houston vigil) ([48:41]):
  “There were hundreds of people there, and the energy was palpable ... It very much had the spirit of a revival.”

• Sean Spicer on Kirk’s unique impact ([51:59]):
  "What he is inspiring might not be one Charlie Kirk. It might be 10,000 Charlie Kirks or 100,000 Charlie Kirks."

• Dan Pfeiffer on Josh Shapiro ([23:54]):
  “This is an opportunity to take a weakness, to try to make it a strength by calling out hate, by calling out intolerance.”

• Mark Halperin on new energy on the right ([27:38]):
  “They are redoubled in their determination to change America in the spirit of Charlie Kirk, in honor of Charlie Kirk, to live up to how hard he worked.”

• Sean Spicer on free speech and cancellation ([41:42]):
  “There has to be an agreement ... let them talk, just ... And then when they're done, you get your turn.”

• Dan Pfeiffer on the marketplace for moderation ([42:13]):
  “The marketplace at some point will reward working cooperation and a measured tone.”

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:22 | Sean relays his Kimmel experience; on polarizing TV bookings | | 02:53 | Panel consensus: affiliates drive Kimmel suspension decision | | 07:01 | Brit Hume’s First Amendment tweet—panel agrees | | 13:48 | Dan Pfeiffer describes the right’s expanding media footprint | | 15:09 | Advice: compete in the marketplace of ideas | | 19:03 | Why did Bob Iger pull the plug? Business and PR calculus | | 23:25 | Democrats' reaction to Kirk’s assassination | | 25:43 | The effect of major right-wing vigils and rallies | | 27:38 | Mark describes spiritual redoublement on the right | | 33:27 | Panel critique of Kamala Harris's book leak | | 35:28 | John (Philly listener): how do we take the temperature down? | | 41:42 | Sean: “There has to be an agreement on all sides—let them talk”| | 51:59 | Sean on Kirk’s legacy: movement not a single leader | | 54:29 | Keegan (Chicago) on Obama’s remarks about Kirk | | 63:27 | Dan’s defense of Obama’s motivations, contextual frustration |

---

Closing Reflection

This episode blends deep dives on media industry maneuvering (Kimmel, Disney, affiliate pressure) with broader philosophical and political debates, especially in the charged wake of Charlie Kirk’s assassination. The hosts and audience grapple with whether media and political tribes can learn to hear each other, and with who will step up as the next generation’s conservative torchbearers. The tone is engaged, occasionally combative, but frequently thoughtful—as much a snapshot of America’s polarization as it is an examination of how that polarization plays out on TV and in politics.

Next episode preview: The temperature may continue to rise—big guests and panels ahead, including Stephen K. Bannon.

---

Transcript

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless.

[Sean]

And if you haven't made the switch.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's $15 a month. Two, seriously, it's $15 a month.

[John Kroc]

Three, no big contracts.

[Sean]

Four, I use it.

[Mark]

Five, my mom uses it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Are you, are you playing me off?

[Sean]

That's what's happening, right?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Okay, give it a try.

[Sean]

@Mintmobile.Com Switch upfront payment of $45 per three month plan.

[Emily]

$15 per month equivalent required.

[Mark]

New customer offer first three months only.

[Emily]

Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

[Sean]

See [e-mail], it's not just about window treatments.

[Mark]

It's about you.

[Sean]

Your style, your space, your way. Whether you DIY or want the pros.

[Mark]

To handle it all, you'll have the confidence of knowing it's done right. From free expert design help to our 100% satisfaction guarantee, everything we do is made to fit your life and your windows. [e-mail], the only thing we treat better.

[Sean]

Than windows is you.

[Mark]

Visit blinds.com now for up to 45% off site wide, plus a professional measure at no cost. Rules and restrictions apply. Good morning everyone. This is the morning meeting. Guys. Break in format throughout today's episode. So talk amongst yourselves for a moment about Jimmy Kimmel. You two just chat before somebody's gonna start, start out, start out like.

[Sean]

So I actually start out like this.

[Mark]

Do you think he's gonna be ever be back on the air? Let's start there. Go ahead.

[Sean]

Absolutely. That's the question I, I was, I'm gonna ask my panel that today. No, but I actually had something. Since we can kick this off, it's funny that this is all happening for me because I appeared on Jimmy Kimmel twice. The first time, the first show he, I went on after I left was Kimmel. He had asked me if I'd come on the show and I thought okay. Kind of cleared it all. Everybody thought it was okay and I thought it went well. And then when I, we, we. This sounds very Trump esque, but the ratings were huge. Everybody loved it. Da da da da. And then when I announced that I was bringing, putting out my first book, I called Jimmy back in his executive producer. I said, all right, you guys had asked about this like you got the first crack and it suddenly became, no, no, no, no, no, we can't. Like we got such blowback having you. And I'm like, you had the highest ratings you had had in four months. And they were so they, they, I said, you know what would be funny is if we did some kind of funny because they had done these skits with a couple other people. And I said, well, what if we did some kind of funny thing? And the EP said we cannot be funny with you. This is, we can't humanize Trump people. And it was, it's just ironic that a group of people that were so against platforming anybody associated with Donald Trump is now complaining about being.

[Mark]

Okay, okay, good story. Let's be forward looking. You don't think he'll be back on the air, Sean?

[Sean]

I don't know how you bring somebody back after that.

[Mark]

Dan. Dan. Will he come back on the year?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No, the, the affiliates won't allow it.

[Mark]

Yeah. A Disney source told the Wall Street Journal they're trying to see if they see a path towards getting back but I, I don't.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think that's a placate their employees.

[Mark]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And the funny part is that shows you, I think that says everything about the executives that they just don't get it.

[Mark]

Yeah. All right, welcome in everybody. Thank you for being part of the two way experience. If you want to be in on the conversation today to talk about late night TV or early morning tv, please raise your hand. Got a bunch of stuff to tell you before we dig in, so bear with me and Dan, Sean and I will do our best to, to inform and entertain as that just like Jimmy Kimmel. One thing complicating today's episode is the President of the United States and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom are supposed to have a press conference. It's supposed to start in about 20 minutes and if it does, we'll take.

[Sean]

There's a greater likelihood of Jimmy Kimmel being back on the air in 20.

[Mark]

Minutes and then starting. I don't think it'll start. I, I don't know that it will start on time, but it may start during the program and we'll bring you that. And we're going to do something we call you may have seen it before here on the two way platform. We call it mystery political science Theater. We will annotate live the press conference. We'll talk in a respectful way. We won't talk over the leaders but in the crevices of their commentary. You'll hear our commentary and we think it's a good way to utilize the two way platform for you to see how we watch things like that. You'll get a little insight into our process. So the president in a bilat now reception with business leaders and then the press did a bilat is in a reception now. And then the press conference again supposed to start at 9:20 Eastern and then they depart at about noonish. The president, the first lady fly back very quick trip. They fly back to the US at around noon and arrive at the White House if they're on time around 8 tonight. Vice President don't know what he's doing. Secretary of education gave a speech this morning. Bobby Kennedy doing a couple events today, one related to organ procurement and one related to Covid with some Republicans. That's this afternoon in I believe in Atlanta. His revamped advisory Vaccine Advisory committee is meeting at 10 o' clock today. Senate is considering ambassador nominations today. Various officials from the D.C. including the the city's mayor and attorney general. 10:00 Clock testifying before House Oversight. Senate Democrats having a lunch today. The House is voting on a resolution honoring Charlie Kirk. All right, a few more things to tell you. Big day here on two Way. If you're interested in our format and our hosts and our shows, there are a lot of programs to tell you about. Cindy.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Megan, thank you.

[Mark]

Megan McCain at noon. Megan McCain at noon on Citizen McCain, Dan and his colleagues at the group chat at 4 and then at 4. Also another option for you, you can join the group chat or you can join me on we're doing a special 4pm episode of Two Way Tonight. So that's at 4 o' clock today. Join me then. That airs at 6 o' clock and then the morning and report at 7. I'm also doing an interview. It's called the Gnome episode of Next Up Today. Why is it called the Gnome episode? Secretary Christine will be on and then my friend Noam Dwarman, owner of the comedy seller podcaster, one of the smartest people I know and really expert on First Amendment issues and the media. He's an attorney. He'll join me for next up. That drops later today. I had one other logistical thing to talk about. Let's see if I can think of what it is. Maybe somebody will remind me in my ear or otherwise. Maybe not. Let's talk about one more thing while I while I deal with something. Gentlemen on Camel, let's show a tweet from Brit Hume. Brick Hume tweet, if you could put that up. Brit's one of the smartest people I know and I generally agree with him. Not always. 106 here's what Brit put on Twitter. The First Amendment does not protect performers like Jimmy Kimmel from being canceled by their private sector employers. Dan Agree. Correct.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Correct. Absolutely.

[Mark]

Sean, you agree with that too, right? 100 but then Brit, move it on to say this, but I would have liked the outcome a lot better if the chairman of the FCC had not involved himself in it. Dan, agree or disagree with that one?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Agree completely, Sean.

[Sean]

I, I, the beginning part of what Brendan Carr said I was fine with. I think the end where he's kind of dictating to the affiliates is where I sort of said, you know, probably not like so the first part of what Brennan said was fair game, which is that this issue is a problem. And then exactly. Explaining the remedy was probably a little bit too, too exact.

[Mark]

Well, go, go say more too.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Exactly. Or the hard way is how he started.

[Sean]

No, no. So he's already started explaining how these companies just don't get it that, that da da, da, da. And I think that's why but, but.

[Mark]

But he's, he's, he's just, just, he's got a history of, of saying things on social media and elsewhere that suggests that he doesn't believe the government should play a sense, a role as censor and.

[Sean]

Right.

[Mark]

But, but there's also, it's one thing, it's just he, he not so indirectly threatened their license by saying they better do something about this. I, I, I'm, I think he's a fascinating guy.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

What is this? That's the one you got to.

[Mark]

But, but I just don't understand why a conservative would think it's okay for, for him to, to decide what's appropriate speech. I just don't understand that. I say that legitimately.

[Sean]

Like, that's why what I'm saying is I, I think there's the, the, the stations that are licensed have an equal time provision and I think there's an aspect of which do they still. Yes, they do.

[Mark]

They do. But this is not, they got rid.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Of the equal time.

[Mark]

This isn't a, this isn't a new show. This is a comedy show.

[Sean]

But so is Saturday Night Live. And when you veer into. If Jimmy Kimmel wants to make himself a new show, which was what he has done, this isn't Jay Leno. He has every Democratic leader, commentator, elected official candidate on there and spends almost all of his monologues going after the current administration, that's a political show that used to be a comedy show. And I think that there's a good discussion about the proper use of airways under that guise. When he says what the remedy should be is where I got a little going. Okay. The, and he said the, the, the Owners of the affiliates, I.e. nextar, Sinclair, Tanga, etc. Should do the following. That's when I got a little bit, you know, I think it's important to raise the issue to make sure that we on the right are getting our due when it comes to public airwaves. They shouldn't all tilt one way.

[Mark]

Okay.

[Sean]

But I think that when we tell them what the exact remedy must be, that's the problem.

[Mark]

Yeah. I will say, and you know, there's no perfect balance right. On the First Amendment. But ABC has had late, a late night show that is more anti Trump. Americans who don't, who don't hate Donald Trump or, or don't think they're a late night comedy show should be anti Trump or don't think that if there's a daytime show that's supposed to be a show that's a casual chat show that that should be virulently anti Trump. They don't get that. I think for a lot of people, so, so for a lot of people, the niceties of the First Amendment, the niceties of threatened government censorship are overweighed by, by this. Now, let me, let me, I remembered what I wanted to say. Two more housekeeping notes and then we're going to go back to this conversation. We'll get to your questions in a minute. Fairway and green, thank you all for purchasing their products. You see Dan, Sean, both wearing them today. Got some questions we should have clarified. Two things. One is ladies women's sizes will be available soon, so we'll tell you when they're available. Right now the site has products for men only, but the ladies products are coming. And if you want catchphrases on your sleeves like no smack in the chat or peace, love and understanding or what's the other one? We have conversations like no other. Those will be available soon too also. So if that's, if that's your interest, please stand by for both of those. And now a quick word from another one of our sponsors before you move on.

[Sean]

Mark, if you are interested in joining us in the beautiful apparel, go to twoway tv fairway. Use code twoway20 for 20% off.

[Mark]

Thank you for that. This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold out arenas, there's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks. Tennessee whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee. All right. CB Distilleries. If they're nights where you can't sleep and you're looking for a solution so you're not dragging the next day, try the CBD from CB Distillery. It's not just about sleep, though. These are products that can help your body deal with stress, pain after exercise, even mood and focus. All made from high quality, clean ingredients. No fillers, just the premium CBD. Imagine joining the 2 million plus folks who have found relief here using their products, their solution. CB Distilleries products. If you want better sleep, give it a try. 25% off your entire purchase. Go to CB Distillery. Use the promo code Mark. Go to CB Distillery. Use the promo code Mark. Cbdistillery.com for 25% off your entire order. And again, if you're, if you, if you're looking for a sleep solution, a pain solution, relaxation, this has worked for so many. Give it a try again, 25% off CB distillery.com use the promo code Mark.

[Sean]

And Doug, here we have the Limu.

[Mark]

Emu in its natural habitat helping people.

[Sean]

Customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.

[Mark]

Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

[Sean]

Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[Mark]

Cut the camera. They see us.

[Sean]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty, Liberty, Liberty.

[Mark]

Liberty Savings. Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts. All right, gentlemen, last thing. Dan Pfeiffer, you know who that is?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Sure, of course. Yeah.

[Mark]

Dan, who's your name?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Absolutely. Who's Dan Pfeiffer is Seward for President Obama. He was his communications director for most of the second term and well respected and frequent commentator now writes, he writes a substack.

[Mark]

So on his substack today, Dan Feifer said, oh, the right now owns cbs. Larry Allison. The right now owns X elod. The right now is trying to buy Tick Tock. Trump allies are trying to buy TikTok and, and the Ellisons are trying to buy Discovery.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yep.

[Mark]

Yeah. To buy cnn. So this is very alarming to Dan Pfeiffer who says we need to do something about this. Sean, I know you'll find this humorous. How do you view Dan's analysis?

[Sean]

He's I, I get it. They're scared. They've owned, they've owned the landscape and suddenly there's a new buyer. Yeah, I get it. I'd be threatened too.

[Mark]

Yeah. So Dan at play. Dan Pfeiffer is pretty well connected but, but he's not like Charlie Kirk, which is to say he's not on. He's not on non stop text change with, like members of Congress and, you know, senior people who can do stuff. He is somewhat, but not the level. Charlie is. So Dan, if the top strategist, the Democratic Party, whoever they are, the donors to Arabella and all these places, if they read Dan Pfeiffer's newsletter and said, oh, my goodness, we're about to lose. We've already lost control of TikTok, of X, we've already lost control of CBS, we may lose control of CNN and they may get control of TikTok. What could your party do about all that?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You got to try to compete in the marketplace of ideas. You got to be willing to go on those plates, go to those places, go to audiences that aren't friendly. I mean, look at what Charlie Kirk did. Look at what Donald Trump would do the last 10 years. He'd go to NBC, go to meet the Press. He'd go anywhere, anytime, and relish the debate, relish the back and forth. And I think rather than saying, how can we control these? Which you can, it's a marketplace of private companies doing what they think is in their best interest. And I think this goes to what Sean was saying before, which is half the country is not represented in most of these institutions. When I worked at H and R Block, we used to say to everyone who would listen, we're in every congressional district in the country, literally. So we got to talk to Red America and Blue America. You cannot offend one at the expense of the other. And that's what these companies have done.

[Mark]

Well, well, I hear you, but this seems like a bigger problem than just, you know, we need to go on. Joe Rogan, your party controlled cbs, cnn, and you had, you had at least fair footing on X and TikTok.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, look, it's the marketplace. I mean, what are you going to do? Raise a trillion dollars?

[Sean]

I will say this.

[Mark]

Why not? Like, who's the Democratic equivalent?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Because you can't.

[Mark]

There's no Democratic equivalent of the Allisons who can go buy stuff.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Look, the Ellisons aren't buying it for charity. The Ellisons are buying it to flip it and monetize it. Like they're looking at the fact that there's one conservative outlet that is a cash money machine, right? Because there isn't a lot of competition. It's why Newsmax and others are trying to start to create more options and why, when certain events have happened in the World. Certain networks have panicked and said, we can't lose our audience to the upstarts.

[Mark]

Let me ask you guys, they're business people.

[Sean]

Mark, I just want to your point. This is one of the things about, in my mind, that has happened. The difference between the left and the right is the left's dominance of so many institutions has caused the right. And frankly, you think about Charlie. What he did was. Listen to what Charlie talks about. I. I saw this void and I went around and I panned hat in hand and said, fund this. And where I think Democrats. This is where to your question, Dan? If I were a smart Democrat, well, then I would go and say, okay, there's a void in this demographic, in this thing, or we're losing here. This is the plan to get them back because most donors get pitched on. I want to run 2,000 points of ads in these five markets, and that's it. So somebody needs to come up with that idea and say, I will take it to market to the marketplace.

[Mark]

All right. Let's talk about Bob Iger, my former boss, a man whom I have enormous respect. He's one of the best CEOs in American history. And he continues to say he's going to retire and then he doesn't. He's had problems. His employees are extremely woke. He himself, I would say, is a liberal Democrat, not crazy liberal. He's not as conservative or moderate as the guys who run Comcast, for instance. He's not as moderate as the Ellisons, but he's not a flaming liberal. But we saw what happened in Florida with Disney. They're very liberal on a lot of social issues, gay rights, for instance. But Bob is a very skilled politician. I don't think he'd be good if he ran for elective office, even though it's discussed. But he's a very skilled corporate politician. Now, Dan, unless you have reporting on this, speculate away. Why did Bob pull Kimmel? Was it because it was a PR issue? You had two giant affiliates with a lot of stations, and it's simply he's dealing with an affiliate relations issue. Or is Bob saying, I don't want to be on the wrong side of the administration? Or is Bob saying, you know, I see, I see now that we've been too liberal? And I'm really offended by what Kimmel said. Like what? What combination do you think went in Bob's decision to pull him?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Oh, I think it's somewhat of a combination of everything. I think he absolutely heard from the affiliates. They know that they have a Problem in the middle of the country with the perception. Don't lose sight of the fact that Disney's foot traffic has declined. Some of it is cost. Right. Some of it is shows ratings aren't that good.

[Mark]

You could move, you could, you could move the morning meeting to that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, look, I mean that is an issue across most network television, a decline in viewers. Right. Even ESPN is having issues, except for football, with decline in viewerships. I think they are sensitive because you now have kind of a cop on the beach, so to speak, who is willing to call out where you're appealing to a, you know, only half the country. Like, why isn't our side represented? You don't, you know, speak to us. I think he's a member of the incumbent party, like most executives who knows, like this is not sustainable in this environment. And so I think they made what they thought was the best business decision. The challenge with this stuff is you don't want to fire your existing customers in your effort to get new customers. That's always the balance. And he looked pretty, pretty blunt and blatant about it.

[Sean]

Yeah, that blue, that's. Those are Kimmel's ratings.

[Mark]

What period of time is that over, Sean?

[Sean]

The high that, the far left. This is 2011. The high water mark is 2014. And he goes all the way down, by the way.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But, but, but you would also admit that's all of cable and linear.

[Sean]

Right. But, but those, that's, that's not.

[Mark]

One more, one more piece, one more piece of speculation.

[Sean]

The answer to your question though is nextar. Just for people who understand, nextstar is, I believe, the largest of owner of affiliates. They own abc, NBC, whatever they own. I forgot what the numbers. Then you've got Sinclair, Tenga and a couple other ones. And, and when nextar came out and said we are going to. And the word on the street take him off the Air5 was Sinclair is about to follow. They obviously would have known about this. And he said I can't. I mean, I got to imagine he said I can't. This is in a huge embarrassment. I can't have it run.

[Mark]

Right. Okay. If, if, if it's not. If Kimmel's canceled.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yep.

[Mark]

What kind of show with what host will replace Kimmel at 11:35? Sean, who. What would replace Kimmel? Will it be a comedy show? Will it move Nightline back to 11:35? What will it be?

[Sean]

I mean, my.

[Mark]

Will they turn it back to the affiliates? What are they going to do?

[Sean]

I would, I mean, I, I think the answer is it's an ROI question. I would say what, like what is going to get us the most money at that?

[Mark]

Play Play Programmer.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes.

[Mark]

Nightline is still on. Dean. I, I as amazing.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The late night comedy shows are dying.

[Sean]

Because, so I'm asking you guys, Greg Gutfeld's killing it.

[Mark]

I'm asking you guys to play.

[Sean]

Gutfeld is killing it.

[Mark]

I'm asking you guys to play. What would you, what would you put at 11:35 or would you give it back to the affiliates? What would you put on? Anybody have any ideas?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, no, I would move off of it. I mean maybe it's a political talk show. It's, it's something like if you look at what gets ratings now even in the sports world. Right. It is, it is talk.

[Mark]

How about, how about, how about an ESPN like, like basically put sports like Stephen A. Smith. Yeah. The correct answer is the Stephen Miller Show. The Stephen Miller Show. If you're looking for regulatory approval, give Stephen 11:30.

[Sean]

How about the evening meeting? The evening meeting. Just throwing it out.

[Mark]

Yeah, I thought of that too.

[Sean]

For me to stay up that like guys.

[Mark]

Oh, we pre, we, we pre tape it at five.

[Sean]

All right.

[Mark]

All right. We're not going to talk about the President's trip because he's about to have this press conference, but they talked about investment. There's a lot of US Companies investing in the UK Contrary to what these trips are normally about, the British really want their tariff rates eliminated or reduced. We'll see what happens. Democrats and Charlie Kirk, you know, initially sympathy, then a lot of criticism of Charlie Kirk and you know, Kimmel and others claiming that this was a super maga, whatever. Dan, how would you describe where today the Democratic Party is in engaging in public debate about Charlie Kirk's assassination? What would you say is like the consensus point of view of your party?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think the party is still a little bit on a back foot because I think they've been somewhat taken aback by the kind of force of the Trump administration's kind of how to take advantage of this. And I think initially their reaction was, and again, I'm not talking about the fringes on the Internet because you can find examples of fringes doing crazy stuff 247 any day of the week was just, it's out, it's horrible and we condemn violence.

[Mark]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Then, well, no. So now it is clearly so much more. And I think Josh Shapiro handled it well and I think he has a moment now because one of the things we've said about Josh Shapiro's problem is he's Jewish. Is our primary voters and others willing to elect a Jewish person? Well, this is an opportunity to take a weakness, to try to make it a strength by calling out hate, by calling out intolerance, violence, where it's happened. So I think the party needs to try not to go into the sewer and continue to call out and say violence is unacceptable. I wish they would stop using the Hitler references and call out Trump's hypocrisy. Yeah, I mean, that's what they're gonna have to do.

[Mark]

Sean, do you have any reporting or information about what Sunday's gonna look like beyond what we've already seen, which is about 12 speakers announced?

[Sean]

Just that there are. I know that what's interesting to me is who I thought would be there and who's not announced yet. So we saw Susie Wiles apparently added to the program. I believe that Pastor Rob McCoy is going to be there. He is. Charlie's always talked about him being his pastor, and I'm surprised so far that a lot of the TPUSA leadership types have not been announced as part of it. So we'll see.

[Mark]

Do you think they're gonna fill 60,000 seats or are they gonna cordon off part of the stadium?

[Sean]

I. I have every belief that they're gonna.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, they'll fill it.

[Sean]

They're already warning people about legit. I mean, clearly they're getting some sort of signal about demand because they're asking people to carpool and this and that on the logistics, what time to arrive by and all this.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So, I mean, security is going to be to the roof.

[Mark]

I mean, Super Bowl. Super bowl level security.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean]

And one last thing to your point, Mark, is that we talked about this before on other tragic events or major stories. You know, if you go back and you really study crises and PR things generally, if you can keep the oxygen out of a story for 48 hours, it starts to die. One of the things about this Charlie tragedy is that there's going to be a now at this big movement this weekend to reinvigorate the movement, to get people talking about it and how Democrats. It's like you responded once and now you're going to be asked to respond again to whatever gets said on Sunday, going into Monday, Tuesday, do they say anything that. Or does another late night host do something stupid? But the interesting thing is I believe that as an issue right now, this is one that continues to get the people on the right and not just the MAGA base. This really has bled into. I've had more people call me and saying, I think I want to run for office.

[Mark]

And I'm like, yeah, I couldn't agree more. I'll just say one more thing. We've got one more topic that we'll get to your questions. This is a subtle thing, but it's based on all the communication, conversations, text emails, meetings I'm having with people. For those of you on the left who said, well, Team Trump was unbridled before they do whatever they wanted, they didn't care about norms, they didn't care about the law, et cetera, the eye of the tiger is too weak. And you see this probably most vividly in the Vice President in his public utterances. They are redoubled in their determination to change America in the spirit of Charlie Kirk, in honor of Charlie Kirk, to live up to how hard he worked. I'm telling you, this may not, they may not change the outcome of the midterms, but it may, there's a level of energy and focus and, and it's, for many of them, it's spiritual and it's, and it's personal.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But Mark, the one, it's intense.

[Mark]

It's, it's just, it's super intense. Now, again, it may not last, but, but it's very focused. Yes, Dave.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So I, I totally agree with you, but I thought if J.D. vance on Jesse Waters last night is a preview of what's going to come this Sunday in their public appearances, I think they risk a massive backlash from the middle of this country, because the middle of this country, and I mean kind of in the middle of the electorate, is not hyper partisan. They don't see this as life and death and everything the way, I mean, I thought the Vice President did not have a good interview last night. If I was a regular person who turned into justice.

[Mark]

Every Democrat, every Democrat I know thinks you're right and no Republican I know thinks you're right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But again, I'm not talking about Democrats and Republicans. I'm talking about the middle of the electorate election.

[Mark]

Yeah, but what I'm telling you is every Democrat I know thinks the middle of the electorate does not like that tone. And every Republican I know says that's authentic. People like authenticity. I don't know which is right. I'm just saying you're authentic. You're trying to pass off your position. I say this respectfully as the objective truth. That's a turn off.

[Sean]

No, I'm not.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I'm saying I think, I think. Right. I mean, your point was like, holy hell is coming. On behalf of the Republican Party. Redoubling their effort and may change the midterms. That is your thought and the GOP's thought. The one thing I'm saying, I think that if history is a guide. It is. What are you doing for me?

[Mark]

Yeah, I hear you. Let me try.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Grievance about your friend. Historically doesn't play well.

[Mark]

Right. What I'm saying is it's not just that the MAGA people say, the White House people say we love JD's tone. They're saying real people will love JD Stone. You might be right, but. They might be right. But even in their grief, they're not indifferent to the impact this could have on swing voters.

[Sean]

Sean, I will say this. The one issue that the media doesn't get, that the right has to grapple with is this difference between free speech and violent speech. Right. And I think my party, my ideology, has got to make sure that we are a little bit more thoughtful on how we address this. Because I have said this before, I will defend that which I abhor.

[Mark]

The.

[Sean]

That being said, there is a line when it comes to violence. And also that doesn't mean that you shouldn't pay a price. Like I. Again, you have the right to say stuff, but as Ted Cruz said on my show the other day, you have a right to go in and tell your boss he's a jerk. He has a right to fire you then. And that's not breaking the law. But you can't. Just because you have the right to say something doesn't make it make sense to do it. And I think that's. That's sort of the line that we on the right need to be careful of, that we don't start saying just because we don't like it that we're going to cancel you. And I think that's the difference. As I was saying earlier, and I've said over and over again, most of the issue that I have is that we on the right are not even permitted to exist. We can't go places. You know, I was mentioning the Kimmel story at the beginning. Politics and prose wouldn't allow my book to be sold there. They wouldn't allow me to do anything. That's. That's insane. But they have a right to do it. I'll protect their right. But then don't complain to me. You know, when, when people boycott them, they have a right to boycott them. And that's the difference is that where is that line between free speech and, and your. And our mere existence? The right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, the other thing the Republicans are going to have to grab worry about is if over the next 18 months there is an example of violence perhaps that is not convenient for them. They're going to be caught in an awkward space. And we may have one in Mississippi right now. A black student was found hung from a tree. Right. I think it's Mississippi, not Mississippi State, Mississippi Delta. I forget the name of the university now. They don't know the cause. It's possible he committed suicide by hanging himself from a tree. His family doesn't think so. The number one domestic terrorist threat to this country for the last decade has been white nationalists. That was true of the Trump FBI said it. Biden FBI has said disappeared from the Department of Justice this week. That study that's been every year. That is not a convenient thing. If that happens, I expect the Trump administration to crack down like holy hell on white nationalists.

[Mark]

Yeah. Okay, one more topic real quick, guys, because Kamala Harris's book comes out in five days. We'll talk about it a ton. So far, the only leak out of it would not leak. The only information was a full excerpt recently in the Atlantic, which you know about and we talked about. And then Jonathan Lemire has saw portions of another chapter and the main thing he reported out of that is that Harris says in the book, I really wanted to pick Buttigieg, just my running mate, but I thought having a gay running mate was not a good idea. The running mate, she says, quote, I love peach. She writes in her new book, but picking a gay man would have been too risky. And she says Buttigieg would agree with that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's weird joke in there right now.

[Mark]

But, but a two part question, short answers, please. Was her analysis right? And will, will that be interpreted in some quarters as her saying he can't win on his own if he runs for president? Dan, was it right? Was the correct analysis? And does that say something about her view that people will say, well, that means she doesn't think he can win. Or, or is it just a combination of a black woman and a gay man?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So I would love to repeat what Courtney Martin put in the chat. And for those listening on the podcast, I won't use the word. It speaks incredibly poorly of Kamala Harris. I mean, she's now pooped on Joe Biden. Tim Walsh looks terrible in this. Nothing says strength and leadership like I wish I could, but I couldn't because it didn't look right. I think. What was your, I mean, I mean.

[Mark]

Is her analysis, was her analysis correct? That, that it wouldn't.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I Mean, I just.

[Mark]

No, wait a second.

[Sean]

Hold on.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

She was indecisive, weak and a whim. Kamala Harris.

[Mark]

Yeah. Yeah. And will people, Will people read this as she doesn't think he can win a general. No, no.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No one cares for Kamala Harris. Thanks.

[Sean]

I agree with Dan. Just to be clear, I agree with Dan. This says I have no, no fortitude. I won't do the right thing. I'm politically weak and by the way, put in there.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But it's. God, is it accurate?

[Sean]

But, but, but hold on. What is he going to say? Pick Tim. Waltz over that guy, you job. Holy smokes. That's. If I were Pete Buttigieg, I would almost come out and be like, are you kidding me?

[Mark]

I will, I will say again, did anyone read this book for her before she turned it in? I mean, it's just the things we know so far, just the judgment whether she wants to run for president or not. It's all just. It's all just whiny.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, and now, and now just. Just to be clear, from what we know, you've gone to war with the president who, who picked you and basically helped make you, and you've kind of gone to war with the person you picked to be the vice presidential nominee. Who are your allies?

[Mark]

All right, John Kroc, welcome in. Thank you for being part of the two way experience. Unmute, if you would, tell folks where you are, what's on your mind for Dan and Sean as we await a presidential news conference with the pm.

[John Kroc]

Hey, it's always surprising when you actually get called on. So great to meet you. I'm out in Philly, actually, so I'm a software engineer. I grew up relatively politically moderate conservative, friends and family, very progressive Boulder county area. I'm sort of in the middle, you know, used to having those conversations with both sides. I'd say over the past couple decades, where you see the divide growing and growing.

[Mark]

Do you mind telling us how many times you voted for Donald Trump?

[John Kroc]

I sort of mind, but I guess.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The answer is one.

[John Kroc]

The answer is one against, one for one abstained.

[Mark]

Which, which, which year did you vote for?

[John Kroc]

It was this year.

[Mark]

This year. Okay. Yeah.

[Sean]

And just to be clear, I'm sorry, for the first two, did you vote for the Democrat?

[John Kroc]

I voted for Biden and then I abstained in the first one.

[Mark]

Yeah. So.

[John Kroc]

And you know, the reason isn't necessarily that over time I've grown more sympathetic to Donald Trump. The reason I didn't vote for him in the Biden election was because I really did not like the election is stolen narrative. And it was coming up before the election even happened.

[Mark]

Yeah.

[John Kroc]

You know, the fact is it's more so about. I don't want the Democratic Party to get away with lowering its bar.

[Mark]

Yeah.

[John Kroc]

Just because they say Donald Trump is so bad. I want the bar to get higher. I want to see our politicians have even greater decorum. I want them to be even, you know, better leaders for this country. And I want them to stop trying to divide us. And I think that.

[Mark]

Yeah, please. I'm sorry, John, who's the best president of your. Of your lifetime?

[John Kroc]

That's a really interesting question. I think that Obama had a lot of strength in terms of his ability to represent someone who can unite this country, but he wasn't perfect any means. So I guess I have to point to him from the perspective of who else am I going to point to?

[Mark]

Yeah. And if you could make anyone in the country who's constitutionally eligible president, who would you pick?

[John Kroc]

So anybody in the country who constitutionally eligible.

[Mark]

Yeah. You can't pick Schwarzenegger. You can't pick Jennifer Granholm.

[John Kroc]

I was going to say, actually Schwarzenegger said about the assassination.

[Mark]

Can't pick him. He's not, he's not eligible. Can't put Bill Clinton not eligible. Who would you, who would you pick if you could pick anybody?

[John Kroc]

Oh, gosh, it's, it's, it's really hard at this point. Who, who have I heard who I think is truly speaking to.

[Mark]

What about, what about Josh Shapiro, governor of your state?

[John Kroc]

I have not heard the, the quote from him. That really gives the inspiration that I'm looking for. I would say I haven't heard him.

[Mark]

Yeah.

[John Kroc]

Demonstrably divide us further.

[Mark]

Yeah. Okay. What's on your mind? Thank you for answering all that because it's a good sense of you. And I mean, I'll just say anyone who voted for Donald Trump even once and says Bill Clinton, I mean, Barack Obama was the best president of your lifetime, you, you speak for tens of millions. You're not super political and you're open to leadership regardless of party.

[John Kroc]

Well, and that's, you know, to me, the issue that really, like I said, I'm a software engineer, I've worked in big tech, I work on AI now. And I really look at this as a, you know, some people think it's left versus right. Some people think it's rich versus poor. Some people think it's us versus them being. Them being kind of this media machine we built to destroy ourselves. And that's that's sort of where I sit in this. And I go, like, I know that this. This machine we're building is so much more powerful than the individuals that are kind of within it. And it's. I think it's hard for people to grasp how much this thing is automatically working to drive us insane, to make us believe conspiracies, to make us work against each other and not just act like good neighbors to our fellow Americans.

[Mark]

Spoken like a software developer who used to live out west and now lives in the East Coast. Brilliant. Did you just want to make all those comments which were greater, or do you want to ask a question?

[John Kroc]

I think, you know, my question is in that direction of. I point again to what did Schwarzenegger say about the assassination? He pointed to our media systems and our political parties, and he said, if we keep going down this road, there is no coming back from that. And that's what really upsets me. And I wonder, what are all your views as people who are on the inside of this? You know, people who are part of the machine. You're part of the machine in your own way, although working against it in.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

A lot of ways.

[John Kroc]

Right. More than a lot of other people are.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

What's your view on it?

[John Kroc]

Like, what. What can we do? How can we help each other become more sane, more kind, more understanding, when there's just so much pressure to say, like we're doing right now, pinning blame on whose fault it is that this horrible murder occurred and.

[Mark]

Brilliant question. Well framed, Sean.

[Sean]

Last week, there was an individual came on at the end who talked about, you know, when. When you're in a relationship or a marriage, you know, sometimes. And it was funny, the more I thought about it, it's so true. There's times when the other side says, I just want to be heard. And we men in particular, have a habit of sometimes wanting to explain everything.

[Keegan]

From what I understand.

[Sean]

And I think there's something to this, of what I love about when Dan says his side is that I may not agree with it. But it's like, okay, I get it. That's how they feel. And part of it is understanding that you may not agree with it, you may never agree with it. But like I said, for those of us on the right, there is this sense of no one, like, when I have been canceled or not allowed to appear, no one actually says, that's not a good idea. We should hear that voice, or we should at least. And I think if there was this acceptance that, like, let them speak. Right? That's that's where we've got to get to a general agreement. No one's saying you have to agree. No one's saying that you have to welcome it, but there has to be an agreement. And this is where I think both the leaders of both parties of all sides could get up and say, let them talk, just. And then when they're done, you get your turn, or something like. But the idea that, like I said, I believe if a positive step for a Shapiro would be to say, I want these five leaders to come to the University of Pennsylvania and I will sit in the audience and listen. I may even rebut them at the end, but I want to hear them. And I think someone on our side, I mean, but I think that's where we've got to get to, where there's an acceptance that it's okay to talk and that you're not going to be canceled, because as I've told you, when I've gone places, it's the administrators, the faculty, the staff that encourage the heckling, the violence. And that's not healthy. And I think that's. To your point, where does it get to? That's, to me, how we get better, is to say, let the other side at least say their piece.

[Mark]

Sean. Dan.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So I agree to some extent with Sean that on our side of the aisle, if I had a dollar for every time someone said, I don't understand how somebody could vote for Trump or still like Trump, like, I'd be the richest man in the world. Right, because then you tax yourself. Right?

[Mark]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Because Democrats just still cannot comprehend why people vote for Trump. So one, Sean is right about that. The other part of it is, and I've said this before, the marketplace at some point will reward working cooperation and a measured tone. And I think that's where, if I were Josh Shapiro or Gretchen Whitmer, this is your chance to kind of now step above the waterline and say, trump's a good guy. He does do. He has done some good stuff. I disagree with him on ABC and D. But here's some examples.

[Mark]

Dan, I hate to interrupt, but you don't think it'd be political suicide in the party to say Trump's a good guy?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I actually don't know about that, Mark, and I hear you. I know the base will go nuts. Like, there's always going to be the side that says elections tend to be after eight years of a presidency, and this is going to basically have been 12 years of a Trump presidency, for all intents and purposes. You tend to want to go in the other direction. Historically, if that is the case, then the kind of flame throwing, never back down, never admit the other side does anything good, the country may become fatigued about it. And it's one of the reasons that I think where J.D. vance is going may be a mistake, because one of the reasons he is more dangerous politically than Trump is he's more well received because he's more likable to the average person, if he goes all in on anger, you begin to kind of erode that. It's hard to get it back. So I think, yeah, maybe you don't turn around and say like Trump is a great person per se, but you can say, here's where he's got it right on policy. Right. Like the border being closed was a good thing. So I think when the marketplace says, I like somebody who can say where people are right and where they're wrong and not look hyper partisan. It's a marketplace. People want to win. They'll go there.

[Mark]

Yeah. John, really grateful to you for coming on today and hope you'll come back regularly.

[John Kroc]

Yeah, thank you.

[Mark]

Also, I've got a software glitch on my phone I'm going to call you about later.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Mark, I wouldn't underestimate. Our base wants to win.

[Sean]

Well, that. Can I. Before we let, before we let him go, can I just ask.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Bummer.

[Mark]

Sorry. Sorry about that. You want to find him again?

[Sean]

No, no, we're good.

[Mark]

Okay. Emily, welcome in. Thank you for being part of Two Way. Tell folks after you unmute where you are, what's on your mind for Dan.

[Emily]

And Sean, good morning. Thank you so much for this platform. First of all, I think it's so important, the space that you created for us to have important discussions and take the temperature down. I've been a conservative for 20 years. I actually am born and bred in New York, lived there for quite a long time, and have been in Texas now for the past six years.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And I'm not Pennsylvania.

[Emily]

What was that?

[Mark]

Did you say New York or say New York or York?

[Emily]

New York.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

New York, sorry, New York City.

[Mark]

Concrete jungle, where dreams are made of concrete jungle.

[Emily]

Lived there for a very, very long time. And I don't want to rehash the conversation that's, you know, happened over the past week as far as both sides. But I will say to the point that Sean has been trying to elucidate, to trying to bring out that as someone who was in New York for as long as I was, and as someone who was the conservative for the past 20 years. And who often in New York spaces is presumed to be a Democrat? You know, based on how I look, I've been privy to a lot of conversations with Democrats where they thought that I was a Democrat. They just assumed.

[Mark]

They think you're Democrat because. Because you dress so stylishly.

[Emily]

Is that you're referring actually why that is?

[Mark]

Okay, that's what I thought.

[Emily]

I can say for a fact, having been in those spaces where it's assumed that I'm a Democrat like they are, versus having been in conservative spaces where not quite the same dynamic, but once they know I'm conservative, they're speaking to me as a fellow conservative. The tenor of conversation is extremely different. The hatred is extremely different. The fixation, the derangement, et cetera, et cetera. The intolerance. The intolerance is quite unbalanced. That being said, we absolutely do have issues on both sides. The extent and the nature of it, removing political operatives, removing free floating crazies, et cetera, isn't quite the same. But we do have an issue on both sides. The point that I wanted to bring up today is, number one, I'm still so devastated about us losing Charlie Kirk. I was at a vigil here in Houston on. I was surprised by how many people were there, honestly. Houston is very purple, but there were hundreds of people there and the energy was palpable. The energy not just in terms of the morning, but the energy in terms of people being invigorated politically. D.J. daniels, who's the young boy who's fighting cancer very valiantly, and his father, they were at this vigil and his father announced that he's running for office. There was a pastor there very much had the spirit of a. Of a revival, which I think Charlie Kirk has said in his later years that he realized what they were doing across the nation was actually doing tent revival. So it very much had that spirit. One of the pastors who was there said that he's going to be running for political office locally. And so that was quite palpable. So, you know, I'm devastated for what we've lost for Charlie's family and also because I think that he very well could have been president. I actually was to the right of him on some things and I think he had had a political evolution. I'm generally not on social media, haven't been the last 20 years. So he came on my radar quite late, but I had started following him when I got on Twitter this last election cycle and he had sort of distilled his thinking down to some important priorities. And Sean, I wanted your feedback. And Dan, please weigh in as well. Not necessarily who's going to step into Charlie's shoes, because he was a very singular figure, but who within the administration, but really in Charlie's way, outside of the administration, but advocating for not just maga, but for America first, for Americans, for that sort of thinking. Who is that person? Because Charlie was prioritizing mass deportations. He Tweeted this on August 14th. Stopping H1B misuse, dramatically reducing legal immigration. That was something that he had been speaking quite a lot about. Dangers of legal immigration, not just legal immigration. Ending chain migration and the visa lottery and building homes for American. And this was a politically transcendent issue that he was speaking about to a large extent. Who is advocating for those issues in the way that. That Charlie was.

[Mark]

Yeah, Sean, great, great. Thank you.

[Sean]

First of all, Emily, thank you.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Really well said.

[John Kroc]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I think it's a fascinating question on two fronts. I'll take the. The latter first, which is who? And I don't know that there's a who. Charlie was a unique character. The last issue brought up homeownership. He made a comment a few weeks ago that has really resonated. We talk about the Fed and interest rate cuts, about the next generation of Americans being able to afford a home. And with homeownership, with the cost of homes rising, with interest rates rising, it's becoming that. And then all of these apps that allow you to pay. You know, it's like when I was a kid, like you had layaway. Now, I'm sorry, you were saying buy now, pay later.

[Emily]

So you spoke.

[Sean]

Yeah. Thank you. But Charlie put that issue on the radar for at least me and I think a lot of other people. And that's. And so I don't know. I think J.D. vance is stepping up politically to sort of really take on a lot of these issues. But, you know, there's. There's a lot of the niche things that you just talked about that Charlie really championed and put into the dialogue that I don't know. There's one person I will be intrigued to hear, Erica Kirk speak in terms of what her next. What she wants to do. Could she lead that she really impressed. I mean, she blew people away, I think, last Friday night. And I will be glued to her words on Sunday. The last thing I'll tell you, and I'm actually writing a column on this tomorrow, is that I keep stopping and thinking about, you know, I heard some. A couple other people talk about this Houston rally, but there's been rallies all over the country. Charlie was 31. Yeah, 31. I don't mean to, like, I literally keep thinking about this because I'm like, at 31, I was trying to figure out how much money I could put away to buy X number of draft beers on Friday night. I wasn't married and didn't have kids. And like, my. Where this guy's priorities were at 31 years old. Faith, family, dedication to country, organizing. It's the. It's just. It blows my mind to think I'm 20 years barely older than Charlie and what this guy accomplished. It's just. I still can't get my head around it. And so I don't have an answer. I don't know that there's a person, but what I do know is this, what he is inspiring might not be one Charlie Kirk. It might be 10,000 Charlie Kirks or 100,000 Charlie Kirks. And that's the message. It's not going to be, I think, one person or two people, but I think you're going to have 100,000 people that have a call to action. Some people are going to go in the direction of faith. Some people are going to go in the area of politics. Some people are going to be inspired to organize or go into business. But I think what he has done is awaken an entire movement to say, what am I doing today to be impactful in this world Now, Dan?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, I totally. First off, Emily, I think everything you said was really well said about the difference between being a conservative in New York City versus a conservative in, let's say, Texas. Right. Just the conversations you hear, the tone, the tenor, the lack of respect. I think it's really well said, and I couldn't agree with you more. I think Sean is right in that I'm not sure anyone will feel what he did. What he accomplished by 31 is unbelievable to be the text with the President and the Vice President of the United States at will. Because your political organizing skills, your prowess is so amazing. I think he may end up doing for the conservative movement what the assassination of jfk, RFK and MLK did for a. A generation of young Democrats who entered office, nonprofits, you know, who went and worked for TEACH usa. And I forget what Sergeant Shriver started. The Peace Corps, like all these different things that sprung up because people were inspired. And I think Sean's right. That may be the biggest, you know, legacy, and what a legacy that would be.

[Mark]

Yeah. Okay, Emily. Hope you'll come back regularly. Really enjoyed having you on. Thank you.

[Emily]

Thank you.

[Mark]

Okay, we're going to bring in Keegan here in a moment. Discuss the wallpaper first. Obviously I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump in a minute. So before I do, thanks to everybody. Sean and Dan will finish up the program. Reminder, Citizen McCain, Ben Ferguson @ noon, group chat with Dan and his colleagues at four. Also at four special pre tape time live on the two way platform two way tonight, Nomi Kunst and Alex Castellanos. That'll air on YouTube elsewhere at seven. Moynihan report. Colby hall, the founding editor of Media joins Michael at 7 Eastern time. Sean, what do you have tonight?

[Sean]

Big panel day. It's Thursday. Katie Miller, she broke some news yesterday or two days ago with Pam Bondi on free speech. So I'm going to get her to react. Erica Donald's, Byron Donald's wife and the probable, likely next first lady of Florida and Tim Murtaugh all join us on the panel today to break it all together. All together.

[Mark]

Tell, tell every one of them I said hi. Keegan, welcome in. Thank you for being here.

[Sean]

I'll send your regards as well.

[Mark]

Tell us where you are.

[Sean]

Thank you.

[Mark]

Just explain the history of the wallpaper and what's on your mind and I'll see everybody at 4pm today on Two Way Tonight. Keegan.

[Keegan]

Yeah. Thank you, guys.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Keegan]

This is, this is surreal. I'm from Chicago, Illinois. I grew up there. My mom was a CPS teacher. So if you work for the city of Chicago, you know, they hold you hostage that you have to live in city limits. So I grew up there my whole life. I ended up moving out here to Plainfield to raise my family. I ended up starting my family not to around the same time Charlie Kirk did in terms of his life. So My oldest, I'm 41. My oldest is 12. It's tough to do. You know, he was a young guy with a young family. And you know, that's one of the things I contrast when I look at the type of person that killed him and the type of person he was. You know, Charlie was an example. You know, we hear a lot that young people have a hard time start and I agree with this, that young people have a hard time starting out. It takes, it takes us a lot longer to reach the same, you know, life goals or life milestones that previous generations did. And Charlie was on a great course for that. Not just, not in terms of his, not just in terms of his public success, but his personal success as a, as a person anyway. So if you Want to know about the wallpaper? This is, this is, this is our bedroom. I give my wife carte blanche. So this is. She gets to do whatever she wants as long as it's not too offensive to me. And I don't mind that she makes her happy. Makes me happy.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Right.

[Keegan]

Makes my easier.

[Sean]

Smart man.

[Keegan]

So my, my question, and I understand that, Dan, you're in the tough spot here. It's kind of hard to be the odd man out and in these group settings. And I love the way you guys treat them, by the way. You always, you always treat them respectfully. But I have a tough question for you. So you mentioned, you mentioned history a few times on this podcast and you just likened. Not entirely, but you likened Charlie Kirk's murder to rfk, JFK, and mlk. And I have a question for you in the, in the scope and the lens of history. How will history remember Barack Obama going up not one week after the assassination of a non violent thought leader in Charlie Kirk going up in front of an audience full of Democrats and slandering his name to applause.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

What did he, what did he, how did he slander Charlie Kirk?

[Keegan]

Oh, well, he characterized him as someone who believes that Justice Jackson and Michelle Obama don't have the brain processing power to, I don't know, what do their jobs. He characterized Charlie Kirk as a person who believes that the Civil Rights act was a mistake. I forget the other ones. Mark had had this clip on his show last night and it inspired me to ask this question. So I don't have the full quote of it. It's surprising that you haven't heard it because I can't think of a full foremost Democrat leader other than Barack Obama. If there's a name bigger, as in terms of leadership on the Democratic side for a person not named Barack Obama, I'd love to know who that is, too. And by the way, I have the same question. Same question.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So again, I'm not sure specifically what you're referring to.

[Keegan]

Well, I said two of the things he said.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, look, I think.

[Keegan]

Do you believe that's a fair characterization of what Charlie Kirk believed in?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, look, I know that at times Charlie Kirk and others on the right have referred to DEI hires. Right. Okay. To a lot of Democrats and a lot of black Democrats. It's unbelievably offensive. Right. Justice Brown, I believe, give me some grace here, went to Harvard Law School and I think Princeton or Yale. Her credentials in a vacuum are indisputable. Right. Donald Trump likes to talk about Ivy League graduates like he brags about so and so went to Yale, so and so went to Harvard. Politically, I get why people make the accusations, but one of the things you need to be respectful of is there were things that Charlie Kirk and Republicans say that are incredibly offensive to a lot of Democrats. I see it in the chat, we see it here. People that have been stopped on the streets, on social media, clips of things he said. Again, you can disagree. Saying that he should have been murdered, that stuff is horrible. But respect and have some empathy that for tens of millions of people, Barack Obama, in their opinion, is speaking the truth. And again, you can say that's highly offensive to you. You can. That's an agreement for the political parties to have. Again, I don't know if Charlie Kirk, I believe he called Justice Brown a DEI pick, and I think that might be what Obama was referencing. There's no video of what he did. There's only trans.

[Keegan]

It's a mischaracterization. Refer to Justice Justice Brown. Excuse me, I, I misnamed her earlier as, as a DEI hire. But do you think that that's a sim. Do you think Barack Obama gave us a similar or less mischaracterization of Charlie Kirk in the thousands of hours of hours of public discourse that, where he's very clearly explained his positions? Do you think that that's a fair characterization of Charlie Kirk?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I, I, I honestly have not, I honestly have not seen enough of Charlie Kirk. I know the snippets I've seen on social media from both sides. I did not listen to his podcast every day. I did not see all of his speeches. So I don't want to assume that it's right or wrong. I do know that as a rule, Barack Obama, much to a lot of Democrats frustration, is not a bomb thrower. As a rule. Not saying he didn't do it here, but he tends to be incredibly measured. Again, a lot of Democrats, they pull their hair out over how measured he often is. So I believe that he would not make remarks like that without some pretty good ammunition in his back pocket. But perhaps I'm wrong.

[Sean]

Here's what I'll say. When Joe Biden put out the criteria to pick Justice Brown, he made it clear the only people that I'm considering are females that are black. Right. I mean, that she may have had the most impeccable credentials and ultimately could have been the best candidate. But it was Joe Biden who set the criteria. And I think Charlie was articulating that, that if that's what we're going to do. But there's two bigger issues that I think. One is the timing, like, why, you know, if you're a leader. And again, I'm not trying to, this is, I'm sure you can find 80 examples and say, well, President Trump should have said this at this time. But the bottom line is, you know, in the immediate aftermath of someone's assassination, where their family is still dealing with this, to go out and to try to, you know, appeal to your base by doing that is probably not the smartest thing. But the bigger question that you asked that I want to address is, will there be any account to that? And the answer is no, because most of the media that, you know, I've spent a career dealing with, with folks in the media, when you bring up a question, they'll, they'll generally say, I never saw it. I don't disagree with that. I'm not sure why it's offensive. And it's kind of like, you know, the Kimmel thing, where the reporting is, is that the executives didn't say there was a problem. They, they, they didn't see an issue. They were trying to figure out. They, they sort of were caving to the affiliates because most of the guys in the media, they actually agree with a lot of this stuff. And there, I mean, you saw that ABC reporter Matt Gutman, who thought that it was very lovely, the exchange that the assassin had with his lover. And then when he commented, he said, I regret that my, he didn't say that was a horrible thing I said or I didn't. He said, I, you know, did the cop out weasel way of apologizing, which is, I regret that if someone took it offensively, which is, but part of the problem is that they get caught speaking the truth. And luckily, if you're on the left, everyone in the media will help cover for you. And so the answer to your broader question is, will this ever be part of the narrative? The answer is no.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So I want to just say, forget that. So I want to just add, because it's been sent to me here, that Keegan, unless this is AI generated, the comments that Charlie Kirk said about Michelle Obama and Justice Brown, in this instance, I can see why Barack Obama said what he did.

[Keegan]

You can see why he called those up specifically less than one week after he died.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

If you saw this clip, I'll block the person's name is, again, unless this is AI generated and fake Keegan, I can see why the President referencing his wife, which is what Charlie Crook did in this clip. And the thing that he said about her and about Justice Brown. Oh, I see why Barack Obama was angry and wanted to make the point. Look, one of the things that's a challenge is there seems to be this sense of you cannot, in these hyper partisan times that you cannot say anything that people. Where people had really strong disagreements with Charlie Kirk. You, you can, it is, you can disagree. But to say that they shouldn't, all they should say is the positive. Like, I understand why people are. Some of the people feel the way they do, but okay, I do it. It's not my, it's not the way I operate.

[Sean]

The funny part is I actually agree with you. You don't need to do that. Right. I think if you have a problem, you can feel no one should die. No one should be murdered, no one's wife should deal with that. No one's kids should deal with that. I, I have a pretty high bar for that. I mean, when I say no one, it's pretty close to no one for me as a pro life guy. But that being said, part of what frustrates, I think a lot of us on the right is you go back to like when George Floyd was, was killed, right? It was you. This guy had a. I mean, again, I don't think anybody. Like, I, I don't. To me, there's a very high bar for when somebody should actually ever have to deal with anything. But the right was told, you can't criticize this guy. You can't talk about him, you can't talk about his criminal record, you can't talk about anything. And now it's, oh, well, you know, we, we can do this. I get it. And I just, I'm just trying to say that if you've been dealing with what this, our side has dealt with, which is you can't ever criticize that side, and now it's, oh, you're finally feeling it to some degree. I get it why the left is dealing with this because they've never had to before. But for us, this is a common refrain over and over again.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No, look, I hear you and I don't disagree. And I think the other part of this, Keegan, that you have to factor in with Barack Obama, and particularly with his wife, is the things that were said about them that were not true. That trafficked in dog whistling, political dog whistling that she will never forgive certain people for. She's going to go to her grave never forgiving things that were said about them and conspiracy theories about them. Again. It's politics. Big boy sport. Don't like it. Don't run for office.

[Sean]

Dan Keegan, I think we, yeah, we got to go. We're going to get locked out. They're going to change the password. I thank Keegan for, for doing that.

[Keegan]

I'm a big fan.

[Sean]

We probably could continue for another hour. I thank you guys for doing this. Dan. I, you know, once again, we're leading the way out. Thank you guys for all being with us. We'll be back here tomorrow again. I'll see you at six o'. Clock. Big panel and just a little preview tomorrow. Stephen K. Bannon. If we want to talk about taking the temperature down, I'm sure. Yeah. So it's going to be a big week for, for us on the show anyway.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

All right.

[Sean]

Thank you, guys. Have a great day.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

They'll be back.

[Sean]

22 hours and 56 minutes. Not the normal 23 hours.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We'll see you in raise your hand if you think we should go for 90 minutes in the future. All right. Thank you.

[Sean]

Have a good one.