Dick's Picks Vol. 9 - 9/16/90, New York City, NY

Summary

Podcast Summary: "36 From the Vault" – Dick’s Picks Vol. 9 – 9/16/90, Madison Square Garden, NYC

Hosted by Steven Hyden & Rob Mitchum – Osiris Media – May 18, 2020

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Main Theme

Overview
In this episode, Steve and Rob dive deep into Dick’s Picks Volume 9, the Grateful Dead’s September 16, 1990 show at Madison Square Garden. They explore this transitional era for the band: post-Brent Mydland’s death, the arrival of new keyboardists (Vince Welnick and Bruce Hornsby), and how these seismic changes affected the Dead’s sound and show dynamics. As always, the hosts contrast musical highlights and head-scratchers, reflect candidly on setlist decisions, and contextualize the recording within 1990’s larger musical and cultural landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene – Context of Dick’s Picks 9

• The episode opens with a lively, self-deprecating discussion about beards, jam band style, and their mutual interviews with Bruce Hornsby. Both hosts agree Hornsby is honest and self-assured, "a pleasure to talk to" ([05:30]).
• The conversation veers quickly, as it often does, into sports—basketball, Chicago Bulls, The Last Dance, and especially the Dead’s connections to athletics via Bruce Hornsby and Phil Jackson ([08:52]).
  • Quote: “Imagine a very tall ‘90s Phil Jackson standing behind Bill and Mickey [the Dead’s drummers]...” – Rob [09:13]

2. Dick’s Picks 9: An Unusual/Weird Choice

• Hosts question why this show, of all MSG ’90 performances, was chosen:
  • Steve: “This is definitely a curveball... I find myself liking [this pick] more in theory than as a listening experience.” [14:02]
  • Rob: “This is the one that will collect some dust after we’re done recording... I will not be in a rush to get back to Dick’s Picks 9.” [16:33]

Historical Context

• Released in October 1997, only seven years after the original show—relatively quick in GD archival standards.
  • Noted that spring 1990 and fall ’90 are well regarded; fall ‘90 marked by the introduction of Hornsby and Welnick.
  • Spring tour = last with Brent; fall tour = a band in flux with two new keyboardists just weeks after Brent’s passing.
• They compare the "warts and all" presentation of this whole show to the cherry-picked “Road Trips” release from later in the same run, favoring the latter for better showcasing what this GD lineup could do ([18:17]).

3. The Two-Keyboard Era: Vince Welnick & Bruce Hornsby

• Vince’s impossible position: joining six weeks after Brent’s death, restricted to “weird” synth tones dictated by Bob Bralove, not allowed to play “real organ”—even the band wasn’t monitoring his sound at times.
  • Rob: “It seems like Vince was [a scapegoat]... set up to be The Guy. And the rest of the band weren’t even putting Vince in the in-ear monitors...” [30:57]
  • Steve compares his predicament to Metallica’s Jason Newsted “...We can’t really accept this person died, we don’t want to deal with it, so we’re gonna take it out on the new guy.” [31:37]
• Bruce arrives as the ringer—a superstar, a muscular but tasteful pianist, and a favorite among fans and critics.
  • Steve: “Bruce Hornsby is my favorite keyboardist who has played in the Dead... he could be a blues guy, jazzy guy, he has bluegrass, soft rock, best singer, and he pushes Jerry [Garcia] to be more active.” [32:44]
  • Rob: “Keith is my guy, but Bruce can be a much more active player if he wants; he knocks it out of the park every time” [35:31]

4. The Emotional Weight of 1990

• Brent’s death still looms large: band soldiers on with minimal break, possible misgivings ignored (Jerry wanted to take time off but the business machine rolled on).
• Setlist & keyboard arrangements are explicitly in service of recapturing the Brent sound, not adventure.
  • “Maximalist sound” becomes a signature; the band gets bigger and blusterier, sometimes to the point of chaos.

5. Cultural Context & 1990’s Zeitgeist

• Extreme pop fluff on the charts—Wilson Phillips, Jon Bon Jovi, Nelson, MC Hammer, Vanilla Ice;
• “A terrible time for pop music... the ‘90s hadn’t really started yet.” [55:23]
• In film, Goodfellas arrives; TV dominated by Cheers, Roseanne, Cosby [57:57].

6. Show Breakdown – Highlights, Lowlights, Memorable Moments

Set One – Disc 1:

• Hell in a Bucket
  • “Not a song I need to hear.” – Steve [65:14]
  • Bob’s falsetto is “compensating for Jerry”[67:33]; classic setlist formula.
• Cold Rain and Snow
  • Phil’s bass is “very present,” Vince’s keys sound “pretty good” with a retro ‘60s feel [71:20].
• Little Red Rooster
  • Both instantly label a “beer/bathroom break” moment; Bruce’s “silver lining” solo is the highlight. [74:52]
• Stagger Lee
  • “Actually enjoyed this version” – Steve. The upbeat arrangement helps, and marks a sweet-spot run (Stagger Lee through Deal) [78:18].
• Queen Jane Approximately (Dylan)
  • Noteworthy as the first Dead Dylan cover in the Dick’s Picks series. “Bob brings masculine energy... Jerry’s [Dylan covers are] closer to Dylan’s style.” [87:14]
• Tennessee Jed (Steve’s MVP)
  • “I was charmed by Bruce... this may be the highlight.” – Steve [92:42]. Vince’s “bizarre synth” is “crazy... how could anyone think that was good?”
  • Rob: “Just guessing what that sound is supposed to be. Adorable and admirable they tried (MIDI), but it’s the most dated thing imaginable.” [95:25]
• Cassidy
  • Misses the Brent-era vocal magic [99:18].
• Deal
  • Reliable set-closer; “Brent’s ghost is haunting... Vince’s synth organ just doesn’t stack up.” [103:17]

Set Two – Discs 2/3:

• Samson & Delilah / Iko Iko
  • Hosts agree—a case of arena cheerleading, busy and borderline headache-inducing. “Two Drummer Dead at its worst... sneakers in a dryer.” – Rob [105:48]
  • Vince and Jerry apparently try to “out-tasteless” each other with bad keyboard/guitar tones [109:08].
• Looks Like Rain (Rob’s MVP)
  • “Languid, more chill after chaos... the rare instance where technology actually serves the song” (Rob) [112:33].
• He’s Gone
  • Major emotional moment, “the Brent tribute” the whole crowd implicitly understood; “a long, haunting, emotional version” [118:21].
• No MSG Jam/Drums/Space/Lunatic Preserve
  • ~25 minutes of “the most freeform music so far in Dick’s Picks”—for better or worse. “Like the idea more than in my ears” (Rob) [123:07]. Both note this would be respected/admired by tape collectors, but is a tough listen.
  • Steve: “I wonder if this jam is an expression of grief for Brent...” [125:48]
• Standing on the Moon
  • Dragged down by “halting” rhythm, “slows to a crawl” [133:03].
• I Need a Miracle
  • Textbook Bob “let’s party” move; a needed dose of structure after chaos [138:49].
• Morning Dew
  • Always delivers, even late-era Jerry—“It might be a boring MVP pick, like calling Jordan the MVP, but it’s just amazing how often this song delivers” (Steve) [142:35].
• It’s All Over Now, Baby Blue (Dylan, encore)
  • “A fitting encore for this show, a downer but totally works for me.” – Steve [142:59]

7. Final Assessment & Notable Quotes

• “Is this the worst Dick’s Picks of the first nine? I’d say that easily.” – Rob [149:08]
• “Maybe it appeals to a collector looking for something unique, rather than something pleasurable to put on... admired more for weirdness than actual listening.” – Steve [131:53]
• “Mediocre Dead is still pretty cool to check out… glad to have explored this record.” – Steve [149:11]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment/Topic | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------|-------------| | Opening banter, Bruce Hornsby | 05:10–07:45 | | Dead & Basketball, Phil Jackson | 08:52–11:16 | | Introduction to Dick’s Picks 9 | 11:16–14:02 | | Spring/Fall 1990, Brent’s death | 17:05–25:49 | | Vince & Bruce, 2-keyboard dynamic | 23:08–38:18 | | Cultural context – 1990 | 52:30–61:59 | | Hell in a Bucket/Set One | 64:40–103:17| | Disc Two (Samson/Iko onwards) | 104:07–149:46| | Emotional centre: He’s Gone | 118:21 | | Freeform Jam/Drums/Space | 123:07–136:50| | Set Assessment, final verdict | 146:03–149:46|

Notable Quote:

“There’s always a Grateful Dead connection to everything.” – Stephen Hyden [54:06]

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Conclusion

Episode Tone & Takeaways
The hosts approach this Dick’s Picks with characteristic warmth, deep knowledge, and irreverence, but also frank criticism. They admire the Dead’s willingness to experiment deep into their career and while they find certain moments—most courtesy of Bruce Hornsby—rewarding, much of the show falls flat due to forced setlist formulas, jarring synths, and uneven post-Brent instability. The episode is a nuanced appreciation of how “weird” does not always equal “great,” but even at their messiest, the Dead are a fascinating, ever-evolving organism.

Essential for both diehard Deadheads and curious listeners—especially for its insightful contextualization and honest, occasionally comedic critique of an era where the band was both lost and somehow still searching.

Transcript

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[Stephen Hyden]

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[Rob Mitchum]

As you've probably guessed about 240 something guys with the Grateful Dead podcast. Both Steve and I are bearded gentlemen, but we're professional wooks and we like to keep those beards sharp and clean. The thing is, when you're only shaving your neck, buying razors at the store especially feels like a hassle. That's why I'm excited about Harry's. I got a fancy new razor in the mail from Harry's, gave it a try, and it was a huge upgrade over my dirty old blade. The shaving gel was also a treat. I tend to be a stingy store brand X kind of guy, so using something with an actual scent and a smooth lather, it was like going to the barbershop. At a time when I'm really avoiding trips to the store, getting quality shaving supplies shipped to my house is a real luxury. Harry's gives you quality, durable blades at a fair price, just $2 a blade. The refills are delivered to you on your own schedule, with or without a subscription, which is great for us bearded dudes who don't need to buy new blades as often. They also have a 100% guarantee. If you don't love your shave, let them know and you'll receive a full refund. And 1% of all Harry's proceeds go to nonprofits providing healthcare access for men and veterans. Now you can join the 10 million people who have tried Harry's with a special trial offer. Listeners can redeem their Harry's trial set@harry's.com 36ftv. You're gonna get a weighted ergonomic handle for a firm grip, a five blade razor with a lubricating strip and trimmer blade, rich lathering shave gel with aloe to keep your skin hydrated, and a travel blade cover to keep your razor dry and easy to grab on the go. So go to harry's.com 36ftv to start shaving better today. Yeah, so I, I'm pretty sure the only actual member of the dead that we have both interviewed is Bruce Hornsby. Right.

[Stephen Hyden]

Well, I've interviewed Mickey.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah. And I've interviewed Bob over email, if that counts. It was a very terse email.

[Stephen Hyden]

But yeah, in terms of like us both interviewing the same guy. Yeah, we've. We've both interviewed Bruce Hornsby, which was a pleasure. Right. I love talking to Bruce.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah. He is like you would expect from his music that he'd be a super, like, chill, nice guy, I think. But he's also a very honest guy. Like, he does not Pull any punches. And talking about his time with the Grateful Dead. And it's just a lot of fun talking to him about it.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah. And the thing with Bruce is that he's also a very self assured person, I think, which I think goes along with him being honest. But, yeah, he's not a guy. I don't think he's arrogant or anything, but he definitely believes in his own ability, I think.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

Which was cool to talk to him not just as a musician, but as a basketball player as well.

[Rob Mitchum]

That's right.

[Stephen Hyden]

Because I think basketball, that was the.

[Rob Mitchum]

Other thing we share in common is that both of us ended up talking about basketball.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah.

[Rob Mitchum]

With Bruce Hornsby, even though we were ostensibly interviewing him about the Grateful Dead.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah.

[Rob Mitchum]

You know, how did you get on that topic? You had a. You asked him about it, right?

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, I brought it up because I'd read the story about how he had played Allen Iverson in one on one basketball in the early 90s, and because apparently Bruce had been involved in this campaign to get Allen Iverson out of jail. You know, I don't know if you know that whole story about him. Like, when he was a senior in high school, he was involved in this, like, brawl at a bowling alley. And he was in prison for a while, and Hornsby basically, like, lobbied the governor to like, help get him out of prison, which is pretty incredible. I mean, there's like a. I think there's like a 30 for 30 documentary about this whole story. I don't know if Hornsby's in it, but like. Yeah.

[Rob Mitchum]

Does it have the one on one game?

[Stephen Hyden]

No, there's no one on one. There's no 30 for 30 on the one on one between Hornsby and Iverson. Although I think there should be. Yeah. Apparently they, you know, Iverson was, you know, felt a lot of gratitude towards Hornsby. So they got together and somehow they ended up playing one on one. And Hornsby said he just had a great day and he didn't miss that day. And he. And he beat Allen Iverson at one on one.

[Rob Mitchum]

Wow.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah.

[Rob Mitchum]

Really?

[Stephen Hyden]

So, yeah, Hornsby can ball, man. He can ball.

[Rob Mitchum]

So Maya Hornsby basketball story.

[Stephen Hyden]

He.

[Rob Mitchum]

He brought this up. I. I went back and looked at the transcript and I think I was interviewing him about. Well, I was. I know I was interviewing him about the Day of the Dead compilation, and I was talking about changing attitudes about the Dead and how more people were warming up to the Dead. And he somehow twisted that into talking about how Thad Matta, the former basketball coach of Ohio State got into the Dead because of Bruce Hornsby. And it had something to do with Bruce's son Keith, who played college basketball, but not for Ohio State. Right. I think he played for LSU or something like that.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, something like that.

[Rob Mitchum]

But somehow, yeah, Hornsby's like, yeah, you know, Thad Mata, he didn't really like the Dead, but then he started listening to the Sirius XM channel, and I gave him some shows to listen to, and he really got into the Dead. And I'm like, how did I end up talking to Bruce Hornsby about college basketball coaches getting into the Grateful Dead? It was a very surreal moment. So. But, yeah, great interview. Great guy. We're gonna talk a lot of Bruce in this episode. And, yeah, the other. The other basketball thing that's come up around the time of this recording is, you know, we've both been watching the Last Dance on espn, right?

[Stephen Hyden]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Loving it.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

And I mean, like, you're a Chicago guy, so. And you were, like, at a lot of those games, like, at least in the early 90s. Yeah. As a Bulls fan, I was.

[Rob Mitchum]

I was lucky. My dad had season tickets for the first three peats.

[Stephen Hyden]

Oh, my God.

[Rob Mitchum]

At some really historic games. And, yeah, it's fun reliving all this stuff. But one thing I was reminded of is, you know, Bill Walton sort of gets all the press as being, like, you know, the number one Grateful Dead fan, at least the number one sports related Grateful Dead fan. But I think people forget that Phil Jackson was, you know, sort of the NBA's second most prominent hippie, and still is in some ways, I guess. And so all this, like, 90s footage of an earlier footage of Phil Jackson wearing, like, you know, hippie overalls and then wearing the Jerry Garcia ties in the nineties and all this stuff, it made me remember and try and go back and learn some more about, you know, what shows Phil Jackson saw. And I think we've kind of deduced that he very likely was at the show we're discussing today because, you know, 1990s September, it's before the season starts, probably preseason. But he said he went to a lot of Dead shows. He went to a lot of Mass and Square Garden shows and supposedly would post up right behind the drummers during the show. And, you know, Phil Jackson's a tall guy. So one thing to maybe add to your experience of listening to Dix Picks 9 is to imagine a very tall 90s Phil Jackson sort of standing behind Bill and Mickey, maybe even grabbing them like that famous Sports Illustrated cover with Jordan and Scotty, like, sort of pulling them back.

[Stephen Hyden]

Right.

[Rob Mitchum]

That's how I'm gonna listen to it now.

[Stephen Hyden]

Well, I mean, I think we can definitely say that Bill is the Jordan of the rhythm section, and Mickey would be the. The Scottie Pippen, you know? So, like, I think it's obvious to say, but, yeah, I mean, you know, it's like they always say, there's always a Grateful Dead connection. And in some small way, I think we can say that the Bulls dynasty of the 90s is due in part to the Grateful Dead. I think we can say that, you know, it imbued a certain spirituality, I think, into Phil Jackson, and he can. He carried that over to the Chicago Bulls. So congratulations to the Grateful Dead for all your NBA championships.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah. Well, this is 36 from the vault, and we're here tonight to talk about another 90s dynasty. The Grateful Dead in the 90s. How was that for a segue?

[Stephen Hyden]

That's great. And we're presented by Osiris, by the way.

[Rob Mitchum]

We love Osiris.

[Stephen Hyden]

And, yeah, this is Dix picks nine, September 16, 1990, from Madison Square Garden, New York, New York. And, yeah, the Grateful Dead is a dynasty. Are we gonna call this show at one of the championships the Grateful Dead? I don't know if we can go that far for. For Dick's Picks 9. This show's an. It's an adventure. You know, I. It's. You know, we just did Dick's Picks eight, which I think we can all agree is, like, one of the greatest Grateful Dead shows of all time. We've done a couple other, I think, shows that people would. Would put near the top for the Grateful Dead. This is a curveball. This is definitely a curveball. We did our Curveball episode on Fish.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

But this is like a curveball. Dick's Picks. I. I think this was Dick's curveball.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

I think, like, even for. You know, because I've talked in the past about how I have an affinity for the early 90s Grateful Dead. It was like, some of the first shows I heard were from this era. I'm also a big fan of Bruce Hornsby with the Grateful Dead, and we'll get into that later in this episode. You know, what he brings to the band. But this is an unusual choice, I feel, like, to put into this series, you know, for. For 1990. I think there were other, maybe more obvious choices to pick for this series. And even from this run, I. I feel like there were other shows that made more sense than this show. It's just kind of interesting to me how this ended up being one of the Dick's Picks.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, this is a weird choice. I think it's probably. I mean, we got to go back to 5 and 6 to come up with maybe stranger choices. And there's, you know, I did the digging, and I can't really figure out entirely why he chose this show. There wasn't, like, a good interview that was Dick raving about, you know, the standing on the moon, and that's why he had to get this show out into the world. But, yeah, there's a lot to talk about, even if it's not maybe our favorites to spoil sort of the way this conversation is gonna go. I think that's, you know, fair to say. Yeah, yeah, it's.

[Stephen Hyden]

It's not our favorite, but, like, I'm gonna say this at the beginning. This is, I think, the weirdest Dick's Picks that we've done so far. Like, the. In terms of, like, there are just, like, the. The quantity of, like, genuinely kind of weird music. And I mean that in good and bad ways that exist on this album. Sure. And with the Grateful Dead, when you say the word weird, sometimes I think you mean, you know, psychedelic or. Or experimental or. Or free form, and I think those adjectives apply to this record. But it's also weird in sort of, like, maybe negative ways as well, too. So, yeah, it's a record that I find myself liking more in theory than as a listening experience. Like, there's certain aspects of this record that I think, like, oh, like, I'm. I'm glad this. This exists in the series, but I don't especially enjoy listening to parts of this record necessarily as much as, like, you know, I feel like I can throw on Dick's pick seven, you know, like, that 74 set and just be in total enjoyment. And obviously, that applies to 8 and many other Dick's Picks that we've heard so far, but this one, it's a rough go.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

At times. SAM. Sa.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, I think of all the ones we've listened to so far, this is the one that will collect some dust after we're done recording the episode tonight. I will not be in a rush to get back to Dick's Picks nine for a lot of reasons. But anyway, let's. Let's break down sort of the background of the episode or the volume a little bit.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah. So, yeah, it was released on October 18, 1997.

[Rob Mitchum]

Right. It's only seven years after the show itself, which is pretty interesting.

[Stephen Hyden]

And there are. And Again, as I referred to earlier in 1990, I feel like when people talk about 90, they always talk about the spring tour, you know, and obviously there were. There's been several albums or a couple albums that have been released from that March run that they did. You know, there's dozen at the Nick, which is comprised of shows from, you know, March 24th through the 26th. And there's.

[Rob Mitchum]

That came out just a year before this volume too. So, right, two successive years they released 1990, you know, collections.

[Stephen Hyden]

And then there was Wake up to Find out, which came out in 2014. That's from March 29th. And there was a Road Trips record that came out from this September run, essentially a compilation of three shows later in the runs September 18th through the 20th. And you and I both revisited that while we were listening to Dix Picks nine. And I mean, I think we both agree that that Road Trips record is like way better than this. Dix Picks nine.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, no, I would absolutely go back to that long before I would go back to this volume. There's a couple reasons for that. I think it's pretty well accepted that, you know, the dead in the 90s were a bit inconsistent. Not, not so much in 1990. 1990, I think, is the consensus. Last good Year of the Grateful Dead. Not only like the, I mean, the spring 1990s stuff looms very large for Deadheads and it's also sort of Brent's swan song. But then people really like these fall 90s shows too, I think, and liked a lot of what Bruce brought to the band and sort of the fresh energy of having Bruce and Vince on board at the end of the year. So it's. It's a very well revered year. But yeah, the, the Road Trips one, you know, the inconsistency of the Dead from Night to Night, you can cover up by sort of cherry picking the highlights from a run like that. Road Trips volume does. So it basically takes like big chunks of the second set from a couple of those shows and then I think one or two songs from the third show. But it gives you like the meat of the show without everything else that surround it. And I haven't listened to all of those shows, so I don't know, you know, what, what didn't make it to the cut. But that's just like two really solid discs taken from three nights and shows you what this lineup of the band could, you know, was really capable of at this point. Whereas this one is, you know, the volume nine is very warts and all, I think and also just a weird, like a little bit more, I don't know, tentative performance. And we'll get into why that is.

[Stephen Hyden]

Well, this has been sort of an ongoing thing that we've talked about in our first season, going through these Dick's Picks, where there's examples of shows that were compilations of a couple shows and then shows that were essentially just unvarnished versions of complete performances the Grateful Dead performed. And I think that you and I tend to be purists in that we like to hear an entire show. But I feel like this is an example of going the other way, where the compilation route sometimes can be the better way to go. And as you just said, it seems like this was maybe a good period to go the compilation route. Right. You know, because Obviously, like in 90, the big difference between the spring tour and the fall tour is that Brent was still alive for the spring tour and that were a very well oiled machine at that point. You know, from touring with Brent for, you know, over 10 years and then into this fall tour, they were working with two new keyboardists. And this, you know, we'll transition into our conversation about Dick's Picks 9. I mean, this show, September 16th, it was like only the seventh show with Vince and I think it was like the second show with Bruce. Right?

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

And it was sort of like it was like a weird arrangement having two guys essentially perform the role that Brent performed by himself for a really long time.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, I mean, I feel like. I agree this is a good case for compilations, like comparing these two sets. And also, I think maybe my feelings have sort of evolved even over these first nine volumes, where I almost would prefer more compilations than full shows to some extent. And I feel like that's a way that the Dix Pick series, you know, at the time there wasn't easy access to every show ever online and streaming. But like, I almost kind of like prefer now sort of the curated highlights approach, because you can now nowadays at least go and find the complete show if you want to be a completist about it. So, yeah, particularly for these more uneven eras, I think the compilation route was the way to go. And it's just kind of like a trick of the timing, I guess, or maybe it has to do with what sort of tapes they had available at that time that, you know, in these first run of Dick's Picks, the full shows tend to be later Grateful Dead shows. Like, the only full shows we've had so far have been the 280 shows and now this show. So, yeah, five six and nine, because even the Harper College one cut out one song. So, yeah, it's. It's a bit uneven. But, yeah, a big reason for that is, you know, the fact that they dropped two whole new members onto. On the stage like the very week of this. Of this concert.

[Stephen Hyden]

Well, and. And definitely the headline with Dix Picks 9 is that this is two keyboard Grateful Dead. You know, you know, we talked a lot about, you know, entering the Brent zone, you know, early, earlier in this season. Now we're in the Vince and Bruce zone. And I feel like, you know, it is a fascinating narrative with these two guys because on one hand you have Bruce Hornsby, who I think is beloved among Deadheads. I mean, I think people really embraced what he brought into the band. And then you have Vince Wellnick, who I feel like his legacy is a little bit more checkered than Bruce and not entirely of his own, you know, not entirely of his own fault, really. I mean, I. I feel like Vince was essentially put into an impossible position. I mean, it's my understanding that, like, Bruce was brought on board first and then Vince was brought on. And the idea with Vince was that he was going to be the synth, like the synthesizer guy, and he was going to kind of do like, what. What Brent did on the synths, even though Vince himself was also a piano player. And I think he learned the songs on piano. And so it was a very awkward thing for Vince to have to play with Bruce. And really, it seems like the idea with Bruce was that, you know, they needed another guy because they knew that Bruce was not going to be a full time player. And even though they probably liked Bruce more, like they would have wanted him to be the full time guy, but they had to have this other guy because they knew Bruce had his own career essentially and he was gonna leave eventually and focus on that.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, no, I mean, the cards were definitely stacked against Vince from the very beginning. And it's really, it's a pretty tragic story. Like, it's, you know, it's very easy to rag on Vince. And, you know, other than Donna, he's probably the biggest punching bag in Grateful Dead lore. But it's a little crazy when you sit down and look at the timeline of 1990, because Brent had only died. It was less than two months before this show. So, I mean, it was like Brent died and they were on the road again, like six weeks later, because I think the start of September is when they were back. They started the fall tour.

[Stephen Hyden]

Brent dies, like, at the end of July, essentially. And I mean. I mean, it's terrible. I mean, but the detail. I mean, like, he. I mean, he died of a drug overdose, and he was. By his Nintendo.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, he was a big gamer. I learned that from one of the biographies. I forget which one, but he was really into early Nintendo games, and that's where they found him, which is. Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

Do we know what he was playing? Was he playing, like, Mike Tyson's Punch out or.

[Rob Mitchum]

It was golf. I believe it was one of the golf games. I don't think it was specific in what I read, but he was big into Nintendo Golf.

[Stephen Hyden]

Oh, Jesus. Okay, so. So he dies, and, like. And the Dead are just like, you know, we're not gonna stop.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

There's really no discussion of them stopping.

[Rob Mitchum]

And Jerry was crushed, and I think Jerry wanted to stop. But this is, like, yet another period in Grateful Dead history where the train was just rolling down the tracks and nobody could stop it, even though everybody probably knew that was the right thing to do, at least temporarily. So they went in.

[Stephen Hyden]

It's, like, out of respect.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, I know.

[Stephen Hyden]

They would have stopped.

[Rob Mitchum]

I think they canceled, like, three shows that they were gonna play out at in Mountain View, Shoreline. That was all they canceled. And they just. They ran interview. They ran auditions as fast as they could. They only auditioned four people, and Vince was the one they chose. The other ones are actually pretty interesting that they auditioned, and it's like, yet another fun alternate dimension Grateful Dead game to play, because they. Have you ever read this list before? They auditioned Ian McLaggin from the Faces. Yeah. So bringing it back to earlier discussion points. And Pete Sears, who did a lot of Rod Stewart albums. I didn't realize. I know him more for Jefferson Starship and Starship work. So they very. Well, The. The Dead could have been even closer into the Rod verse than we've been talking about so far.

[Stephen Hyden]

Well, and I had heard that, like, Sears was, like, in serious contention to be the guy, but they picked Vince because he could sing the high parts that Brent could sing, and he also. And maybe he was also more conversant, like, with synth parts. I mean, the idea was basically just to find people that could do what Brent did because they didn't want to rearrange the songs. They just wanted to perform the way that they had for, like, the last several years. And I had read, too, that when they hired Vince, they didn't even put out a press release about it because, like, they didn't want to play up the idea that they had lost another keyboardist, because, you know, this was like, the third guy at that point who had died in the Grateful Dead, like, you know, the keyboardist. And of course, Vince himself eventually passed away in 2006, you know, in very tragic circumstances, like, he took his own life by slitting his own throat. Which probably shouldn't even go into that story, because it's awful.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

But, you know, there was a real sort of like, well, let's just plug another guy in there because we need to keep this thing going. And they also have Harry Hornsby.

[Rob Mitchum]

Well, yeah, but then the thing with Vince, too, is that they kind of dictated to him. The rest of the band decided what Vince was gonna play, and they said, we're not gonna let you play a real piano. We're not going to let you play an organ. Supposedly, Jerry. This is a Jerry decision that he was. It reminded him too much of Brent that, you know, Brent was so heavy on the organ sound that they didn't want an actual, you know, new Hammond B3 player out there, which is insane. So they set him up at this little, you know, tiny keyboard. Like, it looks like, you know, the kind of Casio you would buy at home in the 90s. He, by some reports, didn't even choose, like, the tones that he would play on that keyboard. They had Bob Braylove at this time, who was like their midi wizard, who worked with the drummers, and he worked with Bob, and he worked with Brent before Brent passed away. And that there was a lot of, like, Bob Braylove on the side of the stage choosing what Vince's keyboard sounded like while he played, which just seems like a bonkers way to operate and totally, like, impossible situation for Vince to be in. And this is all before they're like, we need to bring in, you know, this ringer who happens to be, like, one of the most commercially successful, like, piano players of, like, the late 80s.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah.

[Rob Mitchum]

To ease his transition. Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

I gotta say, too, like, Bob Ralove not doing a great job of picking the keyboard tones. And we'll get into that in this episode. There's, like, some very questionable choices. Choices that Bob Braylov. If it is Bob Braylove who's deciding what. What Vince sounds like very questionable choices. But, yeah, I mean, Vince was just. I mean, he was hamstrung and.

[Rob Mitchum]

And.

[Stephen Hyden]

And he was set up to be a guy. I mean, they weren't even, like. Like the rest of the band, like, they weren't even, like, putting Vince in, like, the. In ear monitors, like, of the rest of the band. Right. I mean, like, they couldn't even hear Vince, in a way, it kind of reminds me. This is, like, kind of a wacky comparison, but I think it's sort of apt. It reminds me of, like, when Cliff Burton died in Metallica. Like, there's all these stories about, like, how the rest of Metallica, like, they were really hard on Jason Newsted. Like, he was the new bass player in the band. And when you listen to the first record that Metallica made with Newstead and Justice for all, like, you can't hear the bass.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

And it was like, the rest of the band was so sad and, like, sort of up about Cliff Burton dying that they took it out on the new guy who, like, had nothing to do with anything. You know, it's like, it's. But it's like, we can't really accept that this person died, and we don't want to deal with it directly, so we're gonna take it out on the new guy. And it seems like Vince was that in the band at that time, which is really rough on Vince. But then you have Bruce coming in, which made it worse for Vince, in a way, to have someone like Bruce there, because, like, as you said, I mean, Bruce Hornsby in the late 80s, it's kind of weird to think of this now of, like, someone like Bruce Hornsby being a pop star, because it's so sort of antithetical to what we think about, like, what pop music is like. But, like, Bruce Hornsby, like, he had, like, you know, like, a number one hit with the Way It Is. That's a number one hit. Mandolin Win. Mandolin Rain. Excuse Me was a number four hit, I believe.

[Rob Mitchum]

No, that's one of those albums that has, like, four or five singles that you put it on, and it's like Thriller Deep, almost like it just.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, his first record with the Range. Yeah. Just has tons of hits. And like, even, like, the record after that had the Valley Road, I think, was another top 10 hit. I looked it up. He had, like, six top 40 hits in the late 80s. So he was, like, a huge pop star. And I'm just gonna throw this out there. Bruce Hornsby is my favorite keyboardist that is played in the Dead, which is not the same thing as saying that he's my favorite Dead keyboardist, because obviously. Okay, I'm gonna explain the distinction. Obviously, you know, Keith and Brent have much deeper legacies than Bruce does. Like, if I were to say, you know, if I were to rank like my favorite, like, dead keyboardist, I would put those guys above Bruce. But just in terms of just pure Musicians, you know, irrespective of, like, their time in the Dead. Bruce is my favorite. And if I were to assemble, like, my dream Grateful Dead lineup, like, Bruce Hornsby would be the guy I would pick, because I think, in a way, he was able. I feel like he was able to kind of do everything that all the other guys could do. Like, he could be. He could be a blues guy, he could be a jazzy guy. There's elements of, like, bluegrass in his playing. He's obviously has the soft rock background that Brent has. I think he's, like, the best singer out of all those guys. And I find, like, when I listen to these early 90s shows, like, he's the guy I gravitate to just because I love his playing and I love what he brings where. On one hand, I think that he has a really. He has, like, a real muscular type, you know, style of playing. You know, he. His playing just cuts through the mix, I think, unlike any other keyboardist that the Grateful Dead ever had. But at the same time, he also knew when to lay back. And we'll. And we'll talk about this more in this episode, because there's a lot going on, you know, on stage sometimes there's a lot of noise going on. And he's talked about that, about how sometimes he had to just hang back because there was so much other things going on, and he knew how to do that, but then he then knew when to, like, kind of pounce. And even pushing Jerry at times, you know, pushing him to be a little bit more active, because this is really the beginning of Jerry starting to enter that heroin fog of, in some cases, like, literally nodding off on stage as we get deeper into the 90s.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, no, I agree with all that, and I think everybody knows by now that I'm a Keith guy, and I would still probably go Keith. But I can totally see how Bruce would sort of both. He can. He can both play that Keith role of adding color and sort of, as you say, hanging back and letting other people shine and just sort of nibbling around the edges. But he has the advantage over Keith that he's a. He can be a much more active player if he wants to be. So the Keith moments, where Keith steps up to the front of the mix, are so fleetingly rare that I think we dedicated five minutes to one of them in the first episode. Whereas Bruce, you know, when he is. When it's time for a piano solo from Bruce, he's gonna knock it out of the park every time. So, yeah, I mean, I love him on this show specifically because he brings back that piano, which I think is so key to, like, the Grateful Dead sound that I love, and which Brent just didn't really seem that interested in doing. I mean, I know he had a piano on stage, but he would often blend it with, you know, some synthesizer tones as well. So you don't just get, like, a nice, pure, soulful piano. And so coming back to that sound on some of these songs sounds really great. It's just, to me, a bit of a shame that there's, as you say, so much else going on around it. And I'm kind of like, man, I just want Bruce to have a little bit more room to breathe here. And that's even one of the differences I find between Volume nine and the Road Trips is that I feel like even within this run, they got a lot better at, you know, balancing out Vince and Bruce so that they weren't stepping on each other's toes and everybody else in the band wasn't stepping on their toes. So they figured it out pretty quick, I think. But, yeah, again, just insane that this is only Bruce's second show. And they decided to put it out.

[Stephen Hyden]

Because it's interesting, too. And just to clarify, like, obviously, I think Keith is the best Grateful Dead keyboardist that there ever was. And he was in the band during, you know, pretty much their unquestioned artistic peak, like in the 70s. It's always interesting with me. With Bruce, it's like an interesting thought experiment. If things had worked out differently, if he had ended up being maybe the only keyboardist in the band. Like, I know there was. I read an interview, like, where Dennis McNally was talking about how he had at one point suggested, you know, why not just be a five piece, you know, why not just have one keyboardist, essentially the way that they did it in the 70s, like, where, you know, Keith was only playing piano. I mean, did Keith play organ at all? I don't think he did.

[Rob Mitchum]

I think, yeah, very, very rarely.

[Stephen Hyden]

I think basically just playing piano, maybe some electric piano, but, like, have a Keith, like, lineup, but with a keyboardist that was maybe more self assured, you know, because all the stories you hear about Keith is that he was a little bit of an insecure person, you know, wasn't as willing to maybe assert himself as much in the band. Whereas with Bruce, I mean, there was none of that. You know, he was. He was very confident in his ability and was very comfortable playing with these guys. And obviously Jerry respected him. And in this show, you know, even though it is only the second show with Bruce, you know, with him as a member of the band. I mean, I think he had played with them before this, like as a guest star here and there.

[Rob Mitchum]

There were some guest appearances.

[Stephen Hyden]

But I think there's some beautiful moments in this show where you can hear Jerry and Bruce playing off each other in a way that I don't really remember. I mean, obviously, you know, Jerry and Brent had some great moments where they would, you know, interact with on stage. But just like were Jerry and Bruce are like trading licks here and there.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

In ways I don't recall ever happening with other Grateful Dead keyboardists, you know, quite as prominently.

[Rob Mitchum]

Well, the story even goes with Keith that part of why they fired him is that he would just duplicate what Jerry was.

[Stephen Hyden]

Right.

[Rob Mitchum]

And it would irritate the shit out of Jerry. So having somebody that he can kind of do these little duels with, that's definitely one of his favorite things about Brent. That's what all those gifts are of Brent and Jerry giving each other the love story. It's all from like guitar organ duels. And yeah, you totally hear it with Bruce. You got. There's that chemistry. I even went looking for a good like Jerry, Bruce, Gif, which unfortunately doesn't exist. There's fewer, I think professionally recorded shows with Bruce Hornsby on stage. But, you know, Jerry was giving him some, some, some smiles, some beardy smiles. I'm sa.

[Stephen Hyden]

Obviously Madison Square Garden is a very special venue for the Grateful Dead and for jam bands in general. And this show came in the midst of a long fall run. I think it was six shows, wasn't it?

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah. And they seem to like, this is the era of the Dead where they would always do a long fall run at Madison Square Garden. They ended up playing 52 shows total at the venue between 79 and 94. And some of these runs, like they did a couple nine night runs in 1988 and 1991. So the six show run was even like a little bit shorter than some of its surroundings. So they were definitely setting up a residency at Madison Square Garden. And I'm sure these were destination shows for a lot of Deadheads, particularly on.

[Stephen Hyden]

The east coast and this fall tour, I mean they, they were playing essentially, you know, stands at like. I think they played 11 shows at three different venues.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

So I mean they weren't traveling far and they just stayed on the east Coast, I think.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah. Cleveland was the farthest west they got on this tour and they played. Yeah, three shows in Cleveland. Three shows. I'm sorry. Two shows in Cleveland, three shows at the Spectrum in Philly, and then these six shows at Madison Square Garden. And then they went to Europe for a month. One of those sort of forgotten Europe tours we talked about a couple episodes ago was that they played a month in Europe in 1990. So, yeah, very, very strange. And you know, it's already got this sort of new keyboard thing happening. It's. Yeah, it's a. It must have been a weird time to be a Deadhead to have this sudden abrupt transition into a new lineup.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, I mean, I think. I think like a big weird thing from this tour. And, you know, we've alluded to it already, but like, they were really still performing under the shadow of like the loss of Brent. And it was something that it didn't seem like they were willing to address directly, but you can hear how they're trying to replicate the sound of like that, I think definitely of like the. Of the late 80s dead specifically, you know, what they sounded like. And I think you can hear that when you listen like to Without Annette, you know, which came out the month of these shows. And Without A Net. To me, like that record, it really is, I think, like, if I were to say to someone, you know, this is what 80s dead sounds like, like, that would be the record I would. I would give to them first. You know, it's. It's such a quintessentially 80s sounding dead record. And it's essentially like an epitaph for Brent, you know, like what he brought to the band. And I really love that record, personally. I mean, is it as good as Europe 72? No, I don't think so, but I think it's the best representation of like, what the Dead sounded like at that time.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

And it's interesting to hear some of the overlaps that exists with that record and Dick's Picks nine and hearing like. Like for instance, Cassidy, which is, I think one of the highlights of Without a Net. And on that record, it's basically a duet between Bob and Brent and Dick's Picks nine. That must be Vince singing that.

[Rob Mitchum]

I guess it is, I think. Yeah, that's definitely not. I don't think Hornsby gets that high.

[Stephen Hyden]

No.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, that's. That's an example of those Vince High vocals that. That won him the spot in the band. Yeah, no, it's. I remember very distinctly checking out Without a Net from my local library as a high school. High schooler just starting to get into the Dead. And I think I was a little perplexed by it. Because, like, this show, it is, like, a lot. Like, it's. You say it's like, the most representative of the 80s dead. And now knowing a little bit more about the 80s Dead, it really feels like the culmination of 80s Dead in a lot of ways. Like, it's a lot of things that they were sort of building up to as far as, like, experimenting with midi. There's a lot of that all over Without A Net. And all over this show, there's a lot of Brent. I mean, like, we going back to Dick's Picks five, when Brent was just starting out, you know, he was a very sort of subtle part of the. The band sound. And that obviously only grew over the course of the 80s to the point where, you know, he's like the lead vocalist on some songs that even predate his time with the band. Like, I know you writer. It might as well be a Brent, like, lead vocal by the time you get to Without A Net. And it has, you know, the Long Eyes of the World with Branford Marsalis. So that was a little perplexing to me when I was just starting to get into the Dead. But, yeah, it does sound really good now. I went back and listened to it for this, and it's like. Yeah, it's like you can hear all the things that the 80s dead were working on sort of come to fruition in Without A Net. And I can totally see why, you know, despite losing a key part of that sound, they wanted to just like, stay on that trajectory and sort of solder, even if it meant soldering two very different keyboardists together in this strange arrangement and just keep that momentum going. Because you can hear it in some of the songs that do overlap between Without A Ned in this show, the arrangement is very similar, even though the lineup has changed.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, it just speaks to how the Brent era Dead was the Dead for a generation of fans. And how the Grateful Dead, either because they didn't have the imagination to reinvent it or because they were such a big business at that point, they didn't have the motivation to go in a different direction. You know, that sort of maximalist sound of Without A Net is. You feel like they're trying to replicate that in a way with this record, which, you know, in a way you feel like, you know, maybe this tour, in a sense, was like. It was almost like a tour in support Without A Net, you know, like, that was the record that people bought that month going into the show, or it would have been, you know, the record freshest in people's minds maybe going into this. And, you know, that's the kind of thing that they would have expected going into a show like this, you know, for better or worse. And that's what they're trying to recreate.

[Rob Mitchum]

I think it also has just about that sound. I think it has to do with playing bigger and bigger venues as the 80s went on too. Cause we're like fully into the touch of gray, like the Grateful Dead as a cultural phenomenon era. And I think playing big venues, not necessarily like Madison Square Garden, but certainly playing the kinds of stadiums that they were playing in the summers at this stage. They just like responded to that by becoming louder and bigger in every way. And I think that's some of my issues with the Grateful Dead show we're about to cover. But also like, you know, I think makes logical sense for a touring band that is finding themselves playing for 60, 70, 80,000 people on some nights, right?

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, this, this is definitely like full on arena rock era. Grateful Dead. Yeah, it's very blustery, very over the top. Although again, as we get into the show, also very weird. Yeah, you know, and I, I used that word earlier. But they're definitely taking some risks playing in front of like a huge audience at Madison Square Garden with this show.

[Rob Mitchum]

You can be blustery and weird at the same time, which doesn't seem like it would make sense, but the Grateful Dead figured out a way to do it.

[Stephen Hyden]

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[Rob Mitchum]

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[Stephen Hyden]

That's distrokid.com VIP EVG so without an ad, it's definitely part of setting the scene for the show. But of course we also like to set the scene by looking at what else was happening in culture at the time. And the number one song in America at the time of this show, Release Me by Wilson Phillips. And I actually had to look this song up because, you know, I know Wilson Phillips from growing up in this era. I know. Hold On. I guess that would be the song. I didn't remember. I didn't remember Release Me. I had like looked that song up and even when I listened to didn't seem immediately familiar. I don't. I don't know how well you know that song.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, I recognized it when I queued it up. But I wouldn't have been able to bring it to mind before that. It kind of sounds exactly like hold on just with different words. And it was like the follow up, I believe. Right. It was single number two on that juggernaut of an album. They all just.

[Stephen Hyden]

I feel like there were a. I feel like there were a couple other hits on that record. But I can only remember hold on maybe because it was. It was in Bridesmaids. But there is a Grateful Dead connection to Wilson Phillips, which is that China Phillips, the blonde in that band, is the daughter of John Phillips from the Mamas and the Papas who wrote Me and My Uncle.

[Rob Mitchum]

That's right.

[Stephen Hyden]

A Grateful Dead standard. So a pretty direct. There's no Six degrees of Kevin Bacon there. There's a pretty direct link between the Grateful Dead and Wilson Phillips. And I love that, you know, there's always a grateful. That connection to everything. So it's good to have that. Other big songs of that of this time. September of 1990, Blades of Glory by John.

[Rob Mitchum]

John Bon Jovi from Young Guns too.

[Stephen Hyden]

From Young Guns 2. Love and affection by Nelson. Yeah, another sort of like, you know, hair metal country ish sounding hybrid. I feel like Blaze of Glory and Love and Affection feel kind of similar to me. It's like acoustic hair metal type stuff.

[Rob Mitchum]

Kind of like Tesla signs type of stuff.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, exactly. Weird.

[Rob Mitchum]

Also weird how many like second generation musicians there are.

[Stephen Hyden]

That's true.

[Rob Mitchum]

In the charts at this point. Like you have got Ricky Nelson's kids and Wilson Phillips is of course not just John and Michelle Phillips daughter, but Brian Wilson's daughters too. So it's like the. Yeah, the follow up to the. All the boomers. All the boomers kids having their moment on the on the charts.

[Stephen Hyden]

Pretty terrible time for pop music, I would say. I mean, you know, in general, there's always that. You know, it was 1990, but, like, the 90s hadn't started yet. We were still about a. I mean, I think Nevermind by Nirvana came out in September of 1991. So, like, we're a full year away from that.

[Rob Mitchum]

One year away.

[Stephen Hyden]

And so, yeah, pretty terrible on the pop.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, I mean, like, for me, like, being a couple years younger than you, these were very formative music years for me. But totally. And I'm totally in the age range where I was, like, given a cassette tape of Nevermind. And it was, like, changed my entire musical taste for the rest of my life. Like, it sounds like the horiest of rock critic cliches, but it is actually true. And I remember all these songs as, like, the pre Nevermind era. Like, this is the. When I was, like, aware of music but not yet sort of, you know, quote unquote, turned on to real music, man. Like, this is all the stuff that was on the radio, right?

[Stephen Hyden]

Oh, yeah.

[Rob Mitchum]

The number one albums at this time you noted in here are MC Hammers, Please Hammer, Don't Hurt Them, which is number one for 18 weeks. Incredible. Followed up by Vanilla Ices to the extreme for 16 weeks. So that's more than half of the year was MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice. And I owned both those albums. Those might have been, other than, like, Weird Al Records, the first cassettes I ever bought with my own money. So that's. I was totally in the mainstream zeitgeist at this point. Definitely not listening to the Grateful Dead, but no. Yeah, Ice, Ice, Baby that was. That was the jam.

[Stephen Hyden]

I remember my neighbor, who was a guy that, like, he was. He was a teen. He was, like, maybe four or five years older than me, and he was into hip hop. And I remember him knocking on my door with a cassette tape and being like, this song is gonna be huge. And it was Ice, Ice, Baby. And that's how I first heard Ice, Ice, Baby. So, like, you know, we talk about tapes with the Grateful Dead people passing tapes around my name. My neighbor was passing me Vanilla ice tapes in 90, dropping the jams on me. That's how cool I was back then. The number one film in September of 90 at the time of the show was Postcards from the Edge, the adaptation of the Carrie Fisher memoir with Meryl Streep and Shirley MacLaine. I've never seen it.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, I distinctly remember the trailer where I think Meryl Streep is Hanging off the side of a building.

[Stephen Hyden]

Right.

[Rob Mitchum]

But it's like shot like down on her, like, like looking down on her and she like lifts up her hands, like as a joke. Like she's not actually on a building, they're actually just shooting it from above sort of thing. I have no idea what the movie is about. I imagine it's just about Carrie Fisher doing a lot of blow in Hollywood and semi fictionalized supposedly. But yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah. I don't know if it's a memoir. It might be a novel. I'm not sure. I'm not up on my. I'm out of Postcards from the Edge head.

[Rob Mitchum]

I think it's like a thinly veiled memoir. Like this is fictional. Wink, wink. Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

Right. And I think like Shirley MacLaine is like Debbie Reynolds, like her mom.

[Rob Mitchum]

Oh, that makes sense. Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

Double for her. Goodfellas came out during this run.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah. And I noticed today we're recording this on May 11, which is Goodfellas day. Right?

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah. Well, it's the. Yeah. In the film, May 11, 1980 is the day when Henry Hill is running around town setting up like a cocaine deal and he's being chased by helicopters. And there's like. There's like amazing.

[Rob Mitchum]

Jump into the fire.

[Stephen Hyden]

Jump into the fire. You have like. Exactly. Killer bass line. You have like some awesome Rolling Stones songs playing. You have like. Well, Memo from Turner from Performance playing and Monkey man from Let It Bleed.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

And George Harrison's what Is Life? Basically, like that sequence I feel like defined my music taste. Like you talk about nevermind changing music taste. And it did that for me too. But like Goodfellas was like a huge influence on like the classic rock that I got into at that time. And I feel like. I feel like Scorsese had such a big influence on me becoming a Rolling Stones fan. Because there was Goodfellas and there's also Mean Streets. There's the scene at the beginning of the movie where Johnny Boy's walking into the bar and jumping Jack Flash is playing in the background. I don't know if you've seen that movie, but one of the coolest sequences of all time. That'll be for our 36 Scorsese's from the Vault podcast.

[Rob Mitchum]

Just Scorsese needle drops. Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

The number one show in America at the time of the show was Cheers. Not a big surprise.

[Rob Mitchum]

The all in the family of the 80s and 90s, right?

[Stephen Hyden]

Yep. And then it was 60 Minutes, which is still on the air. Incredibly. Roseanne, A Different World and the Cosby Show.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah. So many people canceled in that list of that's true. Famous, popular TV shows.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah.

[Rob Mitchum]

I guess Cheers has gotten off okay.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah.

[Rob Mitchum]

I can't think of anybody who has been totally.

[Stephen Hyden]

I don't think so.

[Rob Mitchum]

Wiped from polite society from the Cheers cast.

[Stephen Hyden]

Like, you know, like. Yeah. I'm trying to think who played Norm? What's that guy? George Wendt? Has George Wendt been canceled? I think George Wendt is still okay.

[Rob Mitchum]

I think Ratzenberg or Cliff, I think he is like a right winger dude.

[Stephen Hyden]

Is he.

[Rob Mitchum]

But he's in all the Pixar movies, so it all balances out, I guess. I think he is. I don't want to. I don't want to, like, slander Cliff if that's not true. So I will just say rumors have it. And then, you know, Kelsey Grammer seems like not the nicest dude in the world.

[Stephen Hyden]

He's definitely a right winger. I know that, Kelsey. Kelsey Grammer.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

Tossed out. Tossed. Tossed Salad and scrambled eggs. Frasier, that would have been. I wonder, did the Dead and Frasier ever overlap? I think Frasier started at the end of the Grateful Dead. Grateful Dead should have jammed out on Toss the Salad and Square. That would have been good to call.

[Rob Mitchum]

Back to a few episodes ago. I think Frasier is the fish to the Grateful Dead's Cheers.

[Stephen Hyden]

It's true. It's true. Yeah. I could see fish doing tossed out and scrambled eggs. Probably not the Grateful Dead.

[Rob Mitchum]

Sa.

[Stephen Hyden]

The global health crisis we're facing right now has threatened the livelihood and mental health of countless music. Backline is the music industry's mental health and wellness resource hub, and their work is more vital than ever. Launched in 2019, Backline aims to give artists, crew, and their families quick and easy access to mental health and wellness resources. Backline is currently hosting virtual support groups as well as yoga, meditation, and breath work sessions. Osiris is proud to partner with Backline. To donate, learn more, or to get in touch for personalized care, visit Backline Care again. That's Backline Care. All right, well, let's get into this show. So I have a bone to pick with the first song on disc one because. Okay, we have Hell in a Bucket kicking off this show. Is this the third Hell in a Bucket that we've had? Were they on both?

[Rob Mitchum]

We've had a lot.

[Stephen Hyden]

It's definitely the second. I know it was on Dick's Pick six. It probably wasn't on five. I don't think Hell in a Bucket goes back that far. I don't know. Someone can. Can Correct us on that. I'm just wondering, you know, okay, this is our third show, you know, post, I guess we had a 79 show. 83. This is. This is 90. Can we get like a Feel Like a Stranger in here? I. I'm really jonesing for a Feel Like a Stranger. Like. Like that song doesn't show up until Dick's picks, I think 27, and I.

[Rob Mitchum]

Feel like, very late.

[Stephen Hyden]

That's just a song that, you know, if we're in the 80s and 90s, like, I want to hear that song kick off the show. And I'm just always disappointed to hear Hell in a Bucket, which is okay, I don't hate that song. But, like, I don't know, it's very pedestrian.

[Rob Mitchum]

The thing with Feel Like a Stranger is like, I feel like this is too late for Feel Like a Stranger to really quite hit, because I don't know about you, but I wouldn't describe the 90s as being silky nights necessarily. The 90s dead do not have a silky texture to me. I don't even know what the texture of the 90s that is, but silky is not.

[Stephen Hyden]

Well, I know that they got silky like, the Nine, 2090 show. They kick it off with Feel Like a Stranger, and I don't. I don't think it's on road trips, but there was a Feel Like a Stranger floating out there on this run. And they still went with the show with Hell in a Bucket. Like, you know, Dick just liked Hell in a Bucket, I guess, you know, which is okay. I don't know. This is not a song I need to hear.

[Rob Mitchum]

And if they're gonna play it, they gotta, like, keep those late 80s sound effects in there, right? Like, we've listened to that 88 version. I'm blanking on the date, but there's several versions of Hell in a Bucket where they play the sound effects from the record. So, you know, you get like a little like, whip snap and lion's roar and some motorcycle noises and all that stuff. And I mean, if you're gonna get, you know, full on cheesy Rocker Bobby, you might as well just double down and get some sound effects in there too.

[Stephen Hyden]

I was drinking last night with a biker and I showed him a picture. Gets a door, you like her Seemed like the least I could do. When he's charging his chopper up and down your carpeted hall, you will thank me by contrast, Grandpa, Never mind I stumble and fall no, never mind I'll.

[Rob Mitchum]

Stumble and fall Ah, this one definitely has cheesy Rocker Bobby Doing the outro up in the falsetto range, which is always fun to hear.

[Stephen Hyden]

Oh, man. Yeah, like he. Yeah, this is. This is definitely foreshadowing for what we're gonna hear later in this show. Bob is rocking the falsetto in this show, man. And, you know, God love him. He's really, I think, compensating for Jerry. There's not a lot of Jerry in the show in terms of, like, lead vocals. And when he does sing. We'll get into this later on. I mean, his vocals sound a little rough on this show. There's. There's instances in this show, like, where Jerry starts singing and it's like hard to recognize his voice right away. Like, there's one song in particular where there was like a good like 10, 15 seconds where I was like, that's.

[Rob Mitchum]

Standing on the moon. It's like jarring. It sounds like it's not even like a frog in his throat. It's like he is just really singing in a completely different register. And I don't know what the reasons could be for that.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, it's like, did Keith Richards do, like a guest spot on this show? I was like, totally thrown off on that. And also, Bob forgets the lyrics.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah. Crowd cheers which is fun.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, that's always a bonus. I mean, that's what Deadheads are. I mean, we always like to hear something different in a performance, even if it's a fuck up. So, I mean, it ends up being an endearing thing, I guess, about this performance that Bobby doesn't remember the lyrics right.

[Rob Mitchum]

Flubs it. Not right out of the gate like the cold rain and snow from a few volumes ago. But it's. Yeah, it's pretty early. This must be pre teleprompter dead, though. I think the teleprompters were soon to arrive.

[Stephen Hyden]

So the second track is another song that we've heard a lot so far on our Dix Picks run, which is Cold, Rain and Snow. Do we know if it rained at this show?

[Rob Mitchum]

Well, we got. It looks like rain too.

[Stephen Hyden]

That's true.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah. September 1990 in New York. September in New York. Seems like it could be rainy, though I think I've been ever since I, you know, put that theory out there. I think I've been wrong. There have been a couple shakedown streams on Friday nights where people have pointed out to me that they're playing Cold rain and snow and it's like beautiful and sunny outside. So I guess maybe my Grateful Dead as meteorologist theory was a little off base. But let's let's say, for the sake of my theory and my ego, that this was a rainy night in New York City. Yeah, we're getting a lot of these. And this one is, you know, it's fine. It's like, you know, it's. It's a good, like, sort of high energy opener. This is again, where Bruce and Bruce, Bob and Jerry are alternating songs, so they, like, kind of each get a crack at an opener here. And, you know, it sounds pretty good. I feel like Phil is very present right off the bat in this show. And one of the complaints I have about some of the 80s shows we've done or the other ones we've listened to for research is that Phil kind of seemed like he took a back seat in a lot of the 80s and wasn't quite as, like, foregrounded as he was, say, in, you know, the 74 show we did recently. But, yeah, this, you know, Phil, you can really hear them coming out of the gate nice and loud, which adds to this sort of maximalist 90s Grateful Dead sound, because here's yet another person who is kind of going full steam ahead at all times. But, yeah, I'm happy to have a loud fill back in the. In the mix.

[Stephen Hyden]

I'll say, too, that I feel like Vince's keyboards sound pretty good on this song. He has, like, a 60s keyboard thing going throughout this track. You know, whether by his choice or if. If Braylove was being kind to him. Like, it sounds like it's trying to replicate like a. More of like a garagey mid-60s, late-60s Grateful Dead kind of keyboard sound. And then you have Bruce, who is, you know, laying back, being pretty tasteful on this song, but, like, still making his presence felt.

[Rob Mitchum]

Well, what you said earlier about how he had the ability to cut through the mix, I mean, that's. That's the most striking thing about this set to me is there's just like, so much happening every second of these songs. And yet, like, every so often you get this, like, really beautiful Bruce piano line sort of like snaking its way out and taking center stage for a few seconds. And it's like a really nice dynamic to have him there. And I don't know if, I mean, he said that there were times where, yeah, he would just sit there and, like, there were times where he wouldn't play anything at all. He would just kind of let the song go until he found his spot to fill in. But, yeah, you're right that this is, like, this is the first song where you can Kind of hear, like, you know, a very talented piano player jumping out of the mix, which is not something we've heard with the Grateful Dead for, you know, basically a decade.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah. And, yeah, I've at times described Bruce as, like, an aggressive piano player in the Dead, which is, like, not an accurate way to describe him because. And I think this song is a good example of, like, him not being aggressive. What he is is, like, he's a rigorous player. He's a muscular player. Like, when he makes his presence felt, you hear him, you feel him in the mix. But he can also be a guy who, yeah, he knows his place and he. And he doesn't want to add to the noise that's going on in stage. And, like, later in this set especially, there's a lot of examples of, like, just so much shit happening on stage at once where. Yeah. Like, if he was an aggressive player, it would even be more of, like, a clusterfuck on stage.

[Rob Mitchum]

Right.

[Stephen Hyden]

So it's nice to know. It's nice to have him on stage and, you know, having a guy up there that, you know, just has that sort of awareness of when to come in and when to lay back.

[Rob Mitchum]

The next song, speaking of self awareness.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah. The next song, I can't really talk about because I bathroom break this song immediately. Little Red Rooster. I'm like, I can't do it. I can't do Little Red Rooster. So I bathroom break this immediately. And you were telling me that there are some good moments in this performance.

[Rob Mitchum]

Did I. Did I say that, really?

[Stephen Hyden]

Maybe you're just trying to guilt me. You're trying to guilt me. Well, what I said to you was like, you know, I said, I think this is an automatic bathroom break for me. And you're like, well, I think Bruce plays pretty well on some parts of it. And then I was like, you know, maybe instead of a bathroom break, this is like that moment in the show, like, where. And I don't know if you've ever pulled this trick, but, like, if you go to a show with somebody and you're. And you volunteer to get the first beer early on because you know that the other guy will have to get a beer at a different point in the show, that will probably be more interesting later on, right? So it's like, I'm going to probably.

[Rob Mitchum]

Pull this trick on each other at show.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, exactly. It's like, this show, this song is lame. So I'm going to get the. So maybe it should be like a beer break. It's like, I'm. I'm leaving here to get you a beer because I feel like there's probably going to be something better later on. Which, by the way, I might be wrong about that in this show, but.

[Rob Mitchum]

Well, it's not gonna get any worse. You know that. So it's a safe bet. Yeah, I mean, it's like there's. I should count up how many songs we have, the notes, you know, it's okay. But there's a really nice Bruce solo because I feel like that's, like, that's the silver lining for a lot of songs where it's like. Yeah, I'm not really feeling it. But, hey, around minute eight or so, Bruce plays a really nice, like, 30 second solo, which is, I think, what I was talking about with this. But, yeah, I mean, it is.

[Stephen Hyden]

It's.

[Rob Mitchum]

It's Little Red rooster. It's over 10 minutes of little Red Rooster. So you could go to the bathroom and get a beer and get some nachos and maybe visit with some friends out in the concourse and then make your way back in and you would miss a note, I think. But it's. It is full on Bobby Blues. Like, there's. There's no doubt about it. So. Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah.

[Rob Mitchum]

What are you gonna do?

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, it's like in the third slot, as always, it's like, yeah, well.

[Rob Mitchum]

And this. This is something we, like, haven't brought up. But I think I've seen Bruce talk about this in other interviews, and he talked about it with me even when I talked to him about the Dead. Which one of the reasons why he. I think. I mean, the main reason it sounds like he didn't stay with the Dead. Well, there's two main reasons. One is that he had his own thing going and he couldn't just totally rearrange his professional life around the Grateful Dead. The second thing is that Jerry was getting, you know, less and less healthy, whether due to drugs or other things. And I think Bruce just got really frustrated with the fact that Jerry wasn't always checked into shows. But another thing, and this is the thing I talked about with them, is that he felt like they were so reliant upon their set list formula in the 90s that there always had to be a Bobby Blue song third in the set. And he was, like, always trying to get them to shake it up. Like, he talked to me about. I think he kept trying to get them to open a show with China Rider. And they were like, sure, sure, great idea. And then they never would. Or, like. I think in one interview I saw he Was like, let's open up a drum space some night. Like, let's just totally screw with everybody. Which I don't know if that's a good idea or a bad idea, but it certainly would have been like pretty fun experiment to see here. So, you know, this, you know, very predictable Bobby Blues in the third slot is. That's what it makes me think of is like at this point Bruce is probably like, hey, whatever, I'll roll with whatever. And then even Bruce by like 92, I think, is like, are we really doing a Bobby Blues song Third. Third in the show again?

[Stephen Hyden]

Like, Jesus Christ.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, exactly. He's sort of the. The audience protagonist in some ways where.

[Stephen Hyden]

Oh, man. Well, he was.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, he was. He loved the Dead. He was a fan of their. In their earlier days and was living the dream by playing with them. And I think, you know, really wanted them to be the best they could be and sort of sadly, you know, didn't get that and, you know, put some distance between him and the Dead. Yeah, he saw the writing on the wall better than anybody, probably.

[Stephen Hyden]

So the next song I feel like I probably like more than you actually like Stagger Lee. And I like more than I expected to get into. Get into this song because, you know, they're doing Stagger Lee and this is a song that appeared originally on Shakedown street and it's credited as a Garcia Hunter song. Although of course Stagger Lee is like a much, much covered folk standard. I mean, basically everyone has done this song from like, you know, like Bob Dylan to. To Woody Guthrie to Mississippi John Hurt. Like Nick Cave did a version of this. I mean, there's just dozens upon dozens of different versions of this song. And I remember seeing it on the set list here and being like, you know, kind of rolling my eyes like Little Red Rooster and staggeredly like back to back, right. Like 20 minutes straight of blues. But I actually enjoyed this version. And I'll say that, like, this begins the part of this record that I like the most. Like, there's about a, I guess a five song stretch coming up here that is the most pleasurable for me and that I most enjoyed revisiting as I was digging into this record. And kind of like what you were saying before, a lot of it has to do with Bruce. Like, I like Bruce's playing on this song, you know, especially in the back half of the performance where he starts to make his presence felt more. I don't know, maybe I just had low expectations going into it too, and that helped me enjoy it more but yeah, I liked Staggerly.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, well, you also had a fresh beer and an empty bladder, so you were ready. Ready to go for Staggerly.

[Stephen Hyden]

Well, you and I were joking about this because I was texting you when I was really digging into this record. And it was like, on a beautiful spring morning and like, on Saturday, like on the weekend. And. And you were like, you know, we should note the context of. Of this listen. Because I was like, oh, man, Steger Lee is like, really fucking good. But I'm like, yeah, it's like, you know, beautiful morning. You know, it's like. I think the weather probably had a lot if. If I was listening to this, like in January when it was, you know, 10 degrees outside, I don't know if I would have liked it as much as I ended up liking it on these listens.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, you almost have to include a disclaimer when you're listening to the Dead in May. I think May is like the most Grateful Dead month somehow. Like, oh yeah, it's just like the perfect weather for sitting out back and grilling or having some beers or sitting at a fire pit and listening to the Dead. And that's. I think part of the power of Harper College too, is that it is like a May show. Like, perfectly in the sweet spot of Dead listening time. But yeah, I get it. Like, I don't quite feel like this show matches with that vibe just because of all the 90s dead stuff we've been talking about. But yeah, you know, honestly, you. You kind of talked me into, like, giving Staggerly more of a chance on subsequent listens. And I do like it. I like it also because it's a novelty to me. Like, that's a. That's a Dead song I haven't really heard too many versions of. So it's. It is kind of a fun Jerry song. It is like a weird, jaunty reading of the Staggerly folk song, which has always struck me as like a pretty dark, murder ballady sort of song. And I think I might have heard the Nick K version first, which is like the Deads version. Pretty much a complete rewrite of the original folk song. It's like taking the story but rewriting it to the band's own strengths. And the Nick Cave version is just like this really profane, nasty, aggressive song. And that's sort of what I think I expect from a song called Staggerly. But you know, the. The Dead version is kind of like jolly, which is funny when you read the lyrics. And it's this like, you know, murder and revenge story. But yeah, Jerry, you know, this is a point. This is one of the songs on the night where Jerry, he sounds old, he sounds like 90s Jerry, but he sounds like he's also having a pretty good time singing it, so. Right, I'll give it to him. And it also just sort of illustrates the difference between like a Bobby Blue song and a Jerry Blue song, where what is a city without its music?

[Stephen Hyden]

The legacy of the New York Philharmonic is incredible.

[Rob Mitchum]

Nearly two centuries of history. That's a lot of music and a lot of stories. I was sitting on stage for the very first time thinking, I can't quite.

[Stephen Hyden]

Believe this is happening.

[Rob Mitchum]

Join me, Jamie Bernstein, as we explore the history of the New York Philharmonic. It's the NY Phil story Made in.

[Stephen Hyden]

New York, a podcast about a city.

[Rob Mitchum]

Its people and their orchestra. Listen wherever you get podcasts. Little Red Rooster can really feel like a chore and really sort of blueshammery as we've used before. But the Jerry ones have sort of an effervescence to them or more of like a sort of folky charm, I guess, that you just don't get from. From Bob's covers.

[Stephen Hyden]

What I think we'll find too, that as the show goes on, I feel like Jerry's voice starts to deteriorate by the second set and it still sounds good in the first set. So, yeah, that has a lot to do with it. And yeah, you're right. I mean, in a way, the arrangement doesn't really suit the song, like in terms of the lyrical content, but it makes it more enjoyable. Like, you know, Little Red Rooster is this dirty, you know, cookie cutter blues thing. And Steger Lee, it just has. It's a little bit more upbeat, which I think makes it easier to take, especially if you're going to push it to the 10 minute mark. The next song, Queen Jane, approximately one of two Dylan covers in this show.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, the first time we've gotten to a Dylan Dead cover in the Dix Pick series.

[Stephen Hyden]

I believe that's true. That's true. I mean, that really became a hallmark, I feel like, of like, I guess like the post 1987 Grateful Dead, like that tour that Dylan in the Dead did in 87. And you know, after that, I feel like Dylan covers were a big part of. Of Grateful Dead shows. I mean, Dylan covers, I feel like we're always a big part of like Jerry Garcia band shows. And I feel like Jerry on his own generally does better Dylan covers. Like, I, you know, if I think of like the best Dylan covers, like Tangled up in Blue, for instance. Like what that. The Jerry Garcia Band version of that, I think is really great. And it takes a lot to laugh and takes a train to cry, you know, he did with Jerry Garcia Band. And of course, Bob sings a lot of Dylan covers with the Dead. It's always interesting to me to think about Bob Weir's relationship to Bob Dylan. Because, you know, Bob Weir, of course, is younger than everybody. He was a teenager when those records dropped, those mid-60s Dylan records drop. And I just wonder if maybe they hit him differently than they did the rest of the. Of the guys in the band. Because, you know, to be a teenager, like when Highway 61 came out or Blonde on Blonde, I just wonder. I just feel like that would have been more of like a mind bending thing. Although Bob Weir certainly was not a typical teenager. You know, he had seen a lot of things by then, so maybe it wasn't quite the same. But, you know, when I heard this version, it made me think of the Dylan and the Dead version. I don't know. Have you listened much to that record?

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, yeah, off and on. More as like out of a curiosity than any sort of love for it.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, it's a mess. It's a mess. I mean. I mean, I love Bob Dylan is my favorite artist of all time. So I'm interested in anything he does. And of course I love the Grateful Dead. So I end up loving that record, even though it's kind of a disaster at times. And I will say that I feel like if you're going to compare that version of Queen Jane approximately from Dylan the Dead to this one, I think I prefer this one. Like, I don't think Bob Dylan sounds all that great singing Queen Jane approximately on the Dylan and the Dead record. It's like. I would never. I usually wouldn't say this, but I think we're like, in that strict one to one comparison, I think he gets the edge.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

For the Dix Picks 9 version. I don't know how you feel about that.

[Rob Mitchum]

Well, I think it's always interesting when Bob does Dylan songs because he's got such like a masculine energy that Dylan does not have. And it brings sort of a different element to play. I feel like in a lot of the Dylan covers he does. Whereas Jerry's covers are a little bit more. I think they're closer to Dylan's style, though he is also a little more, I think, on like, the feminine emotional side than Dylan would ever get. So you kind of have these two extremes that are on the other side of what Dylan himself would perform these songs as. And that's always sort of interesting to hear. I don't really love any of the Deads Dylan covers. And maybe that's Grateful Dead blasphemy. Like, I always find them pretty interesting. And you know, there's like, they. They serve their place in the Dead show. And they kind of just become like a nice, warm, like, comfort food part of these later Dead shows to me. But none of them are really that like, revelatory. And none of them certainly make me want to hear the Deads version more than a Dylan version. Maybe not from this particular era of Dylan. I guess 1990 is where we're deep into the Never Ending Tour by that point. Right. Is that like Jeannie Smith era Dylan, where he's doing also pretty, like, hard rock versions?

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, I mean. Well, I mean. I mean, 90 was not a very good Bob Dylan year. I mean, I feel like even for the Never ending tour, like 80 and 89 would have been better than 90. But yeah, I mean, like I said, I. I tend to prefer like, the Jerry Garcia Band covers of Dylan songs more than Grateful Dead. Although my favorite Grateful Dead Dylan cover is it's all for Now Baby Blue. And that comes up later in the show. I. And that's a Jerry song. Although that particular version isn't my favorite version that they've done of that. But like, I feel like at. In this era they would often end shows with that song. And I. I think that's like a really cool show ender. Certainly better than ending with Chuck Berry. Like, the transition from doing the Berry to like this sort of like dark, apocalyptic Bob Dylan song. Which I think is kind of a cool way to end the show. But. But we'll talk about that later on in this episode. I feel like for the next song, this is gonna shock regular listeners of this. Of the show. I'm prepared to say that for me, I think the MVP of this record is Tennessee Jed. And just in terms of like, my favorite song on here, I really like this version of Tennessee Jet. And I'm like, as shocked as anybody because there are some like, weird choices in this song, especially with Vince. Yeah, and I'll let you. I'll let you cover that. But I gotta say that I really like what Bruce brings to this. I think his piano playing. It gives it more of a country feel that I think adds a lot to it. And it's a song that. You know, we were talking earlier about Jerry and Bruce, you know, Dueling at times. And I feel like this is a good example of that. I also want to say quick, you know, I forgot to mention this in Queen Jane approximately. It foreshadows, I think, what happens in this song because there's a really cool moment in. At the five minute mark of Queen. Of Queen Jane approximately, like where Bruce plays a little piano lick and then Jerry actually copies Bruce and then Bruce picks up on it and then Jerry copies him again and they kind of go back and forth a little bit. It's like a really nice moment. You know, we talked about how Keith would just double Jerry, but this is Jerry actually kind of doing what Bruce is doing. And they're having a little conversation that starts in Queen Jan approximately. And it picks up again in Tennessee Jed. And I really, I. I'm really charmed by it. And it's like a 10 minute version of this song. Like, on paper, I never think. I never thought I would like it, but I'm. I'm pretty. I'm. I'm pretty delighted by it. So, like. Yeah, for me, this is kind of the highlight of the whole record. Wow.

[Rob Mitchum]

Sam.

[Stephen Hyden]

Although, yeah, the. The Vince stuff is pretty weird.

[Rob Mitchum]

I did not. I did not expect that, Steve. That is. My jaw has dropped at Tennessee Jed being your mvp.

[Stephen Hyden]

I know.

[Rob Mitchum]

Not because I think it's a particularly bad version. Just because we're such well documented Jed haters. Well, we're not haters, Jed. Skeptics. I would say we're growing.

[Stephen Hyden]

I'm growing during this series. I'm evolving.

[Rob Mitchum]

Exactly. But I think evolving as a person and a Deadhead.

[Stephen Hyden]

I'm evolving as a Jet Head. But yeah, the Bruce. But definitely like a. Like a good Bruce Tennessee Jet. I think that's maybe my sweet spot with this song.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah. No, I totally agree with you. I love having the piano back in the mix on this song, particularly because it gives it. You said, like sort of the country rock feel. I feel it feels very like roadhousey.

[Stephen Hyden]

Right.

[Rob Mitchum]

Like this arrangement of it, which I don't think you got from Brent's. I probably usually play an organ on this song, I think, but it is a significant block to me and I'm trying. I really, really, really tried not to let this dominate my listening as I went through this. But the Vince tone on this song is just crazy. It is like Brent Scarlet Begonia's marimba crazy, where it's like, who could have listened to this tone and said this is a good idea? And I like that. We can't even agree on what it was trying to replicate. I am like. Is that, like, supposed to be, like, the synthesizer violin setting you wrote down? It's supposed to be in harmonica.

[Stephen Hyden]

That was my guess.

[Rob Mitchum]

I mean, somewhere between that and.

[Stephen Hyden]

I'm not even saying that I'm right. I'm just like, that's my guess.

[Rob Mitchum]

But we're just guessing.

[Stephen Hyden]

I was just trying to be like. Oh. Like. Like the motif of the song. It's sort of like a countryish, you know, song and, like, sort of have, like, a harmonica on it sound.

[Rob Mitchum]

Ah, yeah. That's where I thought, like, the fiddle would sort of fit in. But, yeah, it's. It's very squeaky idea.

[Stephen Hyden]

It's kind of like a high squeaky sound.

[Rob Mitchum]

And I, like, there's, like. Before the song even starts, there's, like, a little, like, when they're kind of tuning up to it, they, like, flip that tone on. And he plays a little, like, diddle on it. And you hear this, like, sound from the crowd, which I. It's mostly a cheer, I think, but also maybe just sort of like a. Like a what the fuck? Collective from the. Collectively. From the Madison Square Garden crowd. You know, the thing with the Dead and MIDI is that I really respect that they were going for that. Like, it is, like, something that they didn't have to do. And it's, like, kind of cool that a band that is 25 years old at the point of this show is like. And so associated with, like, you know, classic rock and folk, rock and country and sort of rootsy sounds is like, we're all in on this MIDI thing. Like, not just even from the keyboard. It's like, we're going to put drums through midi, we're going to put guitars through midi, we're going to put the bass through midi. It's. It's. It's adorable. And it's, like. It's, like, admirable that they were, like, so into this new technology. But unfortunately, I think the technology just wasn't quite there yet for what they wanted to do. And I'm sure that Bob Braylove is, like, a genius guy for that time. And I'm sure it took, like, you know, computer programming skills to even come up with the synthesized violin tone that they use on this Tennessee Jed. But it just. It's the most dated thing, like, imaginable. And, you know, I can appreciate this version of the song, but it's. It's never going to be my MVP just because of that, like, screeching that's going on over the entire runtime Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

I mean, I think with stuff like that, you have to sort of look at it as, well, these weird, you know, choices, these sonic choices. This is like how they got psychedelic at this time by, like, using outdated technology or technology that was going to be soon outdated in, like, really weird ways. So, like, that's how I try to appreciate it, like, where it's. Because it does sound weird. And. And again, I keep saying the word weird in connection to this show. There's just some just bizarre choices that happen sonically in. In this gig that, you know, don't necessarily have, like, intentionality to them. Like, they're not trying to sound bizarre. Like, I. Again, I feel like in Tennessee Jed, there was an idea of, like, trying to sort of create these synthetic country sounds, country music sounds that would have, like, added to the atmosphere of the song, but it ends up not sounding like that. It ends up sounding like fake squeaks that are being forcefully inserted into the mix, and they don't totally work. But, yeah, I don't know. I think I was just so charmed by Bruce that it was easy for me to block that out in ways that I wasn't able to block out that kind of stuff later on in this show, which we'll get to the next song. Cassidy. We touched on this one a little bit. I mean, this was a highlight of Without a Net, and of course, on that record, it's a duet between Bob and Brent. And I like this version, but, I mean, this is a song where I think you really feel the absence of Brent, wouldn't you say?

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel like I'm. I like Cassidy a lot, and I think it's one of these, like, weird. It's the rare Grateful Dead song that, you know, it debuted in the 70s, it's on ACE, but it didn't really, like, fully bloom until the 80s. And I don't know if that was because of Brent or just because of the. The sound of the band had changed and it ended up suiting the. The. The. The song as written. But, yeah, you listen to that without a Net version, and it's such a duet between Bob and Brent. I mean, they are, like, equally loud in the mix. So then jumping from that to Vince version is. It's a little bit sad, but I think it's still a pretty good version. And I just, like, kind of like the drive, the momentum that Cassidy has. I think it adds, like, a nice urgency to an era of the Dead that was sometimes lacking in urgency. So, yeah, this is our first Cassidy. I'm looking forward to more in the Dick's Picks, but, yeah, yeah, it's okay.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, it's definitely, I think, one of the better Bob songs. And as you said, it comes from Ace, the source of many Bob Weir classics. But, yeah, I agree. I feel like that song was a late bloomer in a way. You know, comes out in the early 70s, but really blossoms with the Brent era in the 80s. And I think just because of the emotion in Brent's voice, you know, which we've talked about in this show, sometimes it seemed maybe a little, you know, over the top, sometimes his vocal style, but I think it really suits that song, which is, of course, a tribute to Neil Cassidy. And it's just nice to kind of hear that sort of expressiveness in a song like that and to not have that. It just feels it in a way. It's almost like a tribute to Brent now, like, when you hear it on this record.

[Rob Mitchum]

Sa.

[Stephen Hyden]

Sam. The first disc wraps up with Deal, and this is for me. I mean, Deal was always like, I think, a great set closer, and it never changes all that much, like, from different versions that you hear. But I always enjoy hearing it. Like, for me, you know, I said Stagger Lee was the beginning of the meat of the set for me, or my favorite part of. Of this album. And I feel like Deal is the capstone of the best part of the record for me. And, yeah, I mean, I just think it's a great set closer, I guess. I don't have a ton to say about Deal other than that. I mean, I just. But I like this version and I think it's a good end to the first disc.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, I mean, it's another place where Brent's ghost is kind of haunting the show, I think, because Steel was always such a showcase for Brent's organ. And one of the, you know, really disappointing parts of what they sort of forced Vince into is that he's doing sort of this, you know, organ patch on his synthesizer instead of Brent's very robust classic Hammond B3 sound with, like, a dozen Leslie speakers arranged around the stage to create this, like, huge, thick organ. And instead you get kind of this, like, rinky dink, like, minor league baseball organ. That's the only kind of bummer about it. But, you know, it's. This is a reliable set closer for the Dead by this point, and they're not going to mess it up too much. So, yeah, it's fine.

[Stephen Hyden]

So now we're going into disc two, and the first two songs on disc Two. I'm gonna say, like, this is. I guess, other than the Little Red Rooster, like, it really bottoms out for me. Like, we're going from, like, the peak, I think. You know, like, that back half of the first disc, I think, is, like, relatively strong. These next two songs, man, it's like, it's. It's really tough for me. It's like you got Samson and Delilah and Iko. Iko. And it's sort of like just being in. I'm trying to think of a good analogy here. It's like. It's like being on a train that's about to go off a track. And also, like, you're doing an aerobics class inside the train. And maybe there's, like, a bunch of jugglers in there and, you know, and sword swallowers and just a lot of things going on at once. And everything's sort of falling apart at the same time. It's so up. There's so much energy. But I just find it to be sort of headache inducing, these two songs. And if I hadn't already taken. And I guess this is me getting screwed over by buying you a beer during Little Red Rooster. Because this. Because this is. This should be when you're buying, like. Like when I guess you're gonna buy me a beer and you're gonna force me to listen to these songs while you go off. You're hanging around the concourse while these two songs are playing. I mean, do you like these? I mean, do you like these more than I do? I mean, because both of these songs, I think, are rough for me.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah. I mean, both of these. I don't dislike either of these songs, but these two songs are, like, the perfect example of my primary block with 90s dead. And it's not even Vince Tones or Jerry's Decline. It's that Two Drummer Two Drummer Dead is really at its end of deer as the 90s go on. And this is, like, a perfect example of, like, Billy and Mickey not really, like, keeping a beat so much as just hitting every drum in their set at random. And, like, the combination of the two of them just, like, constantly hitting things sort of resembles a drum beat that the rest of the song works on. There's the old knock on Two Drummer Dead that. It sounds like Sneakers and a dryer. And I can't think of, like, better examples of that, like, you know, description than these two songs because they just kind of, like. They just rattle around and like, it. It sets such a shaky foundation for all the, like, very loud, maximal busyness on top of it that you, you, you, you mentioned already headache inducing. This, this is the part of the show that pretty much literally gives me a headache. Like it is just too much for me. And well, like, well, like again, I.

[Stephen Hyden]

Mean, there's just some like weird set list choices in this show. Like where, okay, early in the show you have Little Red Rooster going into Stegor Lee. So it's like 20 minutes of like bluesy mid tempo songs. And then you have like Samson and Iko Iko back to back. Another 20 minutes of just like upbeat, kind of similar sounding songs.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah. Sort of tropical, sort of New Orleansy. Like. Yeah, they both have that like party vibe.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, it's like, you know, Samson, Delilah. I would say, like it's not my favorite song, but like, I understand that as a song, you come out of the set break, you're trying to get people back up. I understand playing that. I go, Eiko, I don't need, I don't need to hear Iko Iko. I know. This was like a song that they played a lot in the late 80s going into the 90s. I mean like when this song started, like, what's the difference between this song and like Man Smart, Woman Smarter. Like I feel like they sound very similar coming in. I mean, obviously Echo Echo Echo is like a cover, right? Song.

[Rob Mitchum]

Well, so is Man, Man Smart Women Smarter is a Harry Belafonte song. So yeah, they both have this like calypso. I don't know, I'm probably not putting the right label on it, but it just like it feels very like Creole New Orleans in a very sort of generic way. Like just like Party party jazz, rock.

[Stephen Hyden]

I mean like, like if the Meters are playing this, I'd be pretty excited.

[Rob Mitchum]

Exactly.

[Stephen Hyden]

But I don't. Yeah, like 1990 Grateful Dead. I don't know, it just does not work right. And like, man, the, the. Is that Vince playing a synth solo at like 430mark of Iko Iko. It's just, it's like nails on a chalkboard, man. It's blaring. It's awful, man.

[Rob Mitchum]

And then Jerry like chases it with, I think the first real obvious example of him using MIDI on this show. And there's gonna be a lot more, but yeah, it is like them trying to out tasteless each other on how bad they can make their instrument sound. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a rough listen, I think. And I'm sure there's people that love it. And this is very much the sort of like the Grateful Dead Concert as party versus the Grateful Dead concert as art.

[Stephen Hyden]

Right.

[Rob Mitchum]

Sort of the scales tipping one way or another, where, you know, if you're, like. If you've had several beers and other substances and you're partying it up in New York City and, yeah, they come out and do 20 minutes of this stuff. And I'm sure it's fun to dance, too, and everybody's happy and it's a good time, but it's not something that holds up particularly well on tape.

[Stephen Hyden]

Well, and just to bring up some of the other shows from this run, I mean, you know, the 9:20 show. I mean, there's a China writer in that show. The second set, I think, or that might be the first set. I know there's a Dark Star.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

That goes on for quite a while. It's like, I understand, like, this show probably was fun if you were there, but, like, if you're gonna release a record, like, give us, like, the Dark Star show, you know, give us, like, stuff that's, like, a little bit more exploratory. I don't know. Just, to me, just is, like, not a great listening experience.

[Rob Mitchum]

Right.

[Stephen Hyden]

You know, getting that double shot.

[Rob Mitchum]

This is the argument for doing compilations over full shows, I think, is that you can cut.

[Stephen Hyden]

Right.

[Rob Mitchum]

Samson, Iko, Ego from this show. Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

So it's funny because, I mean, the next song looks like Rain. You know, we've talked about Looks like Rain. I feel like we're both pro. Looks Like Rain. Right? I mean, we both like that song.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Stephen Hyden]

And. And definitely, it literally is like a oasis after, like, that double shot. Like, you know, you do feel like you've been through the desert, and now you're like, oh, like, I'm gonna get some rain. And I'm gonna have Bobby screeching at me about the rain. Like, shouting at the sky about the rain. And this is where the falsetto comes back, because it's like rain.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

Rain, rain.

[Rob Mitchum]

As we've said before, he hates that rain. He hates it more than anybody has ever hated rain.

[Stephen Hyden]

Well, does he hate the rain or does he? Or is he, like, an ecstasy over the rain? I don't know.

[Rob Mitchum]

He's saying, I can't stand the rain. Rain, rain, go away. He's got all sorts of anti rain messages he cycles through. Yeah, I think it's definitely an anti rain song.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, yeah. Hates the rain. Well, I was grateful for the rain in this show. I felt like I was parched after that double shot. And I appreciated. You know, it's so funny because, like, with, with this era of the Dead, it is more languid and I feel like we're, you know, we'd be more apt to complain about the lack of energy. So it's sort of funny to be complaining about too much energy or too much noise in the previous two songs. But like, I did appreciate the relatively chilled out vibe of Looks Like Rain after the previous two songs.

[Rob Mitchum]

Right. Well, I think all the things that go wrong with the 90s dead sound and what it had become by this point in Samson and Iko, Iko actually somehow like coalesce and work on this version of Looks Like Rain, which, you know, again, this is another like early 70s Bob song which is like a fairly subtle country rock, folk rock song in its earliest incarnations and probably shouldn't work with this throw everything out there, 90s dead approach. But I really like it. Like what Vince is doing, he's adding sort of like some sparkly color to it, which I think actually works in this instance. I like what Jerry is doing and I really like actually his use of MIDI on this song. It's like the, the sort of infamous MIDI trumpet sound that Jerry leans on a lot in this era. But there's a really nice riff over. If you sort of can tune out Bob's histrionics over Rain in the outro to the song. There's a really sort of nice counter melody that Jerry plays and he sort of hints at it on the. Without a net version too, which I thought was interesting. But it's a little bit more developed in this version and I really like it a lot. It's sort of over the last two minutes of the song if you listen to it, because he plays it in like sort of standard Jerry tone and then he flips on the trumpet tone and it actually sounds great in the trumpet tone too. So it's sort of the rare instance where all of these technological tricks they're using actually serve the song instead of distract from the song. And in, in the same, you know, sort of upset of you liking Jed more than anything else on this album. I think I like the Looks Like Rain from this volume more than any other performance on this, on volume nine. Like this is this. I'm gonna stick my neck out and say this is my MVP of the, the. Of the collection. Cuz I, I, I just think this does what they were going for in 1990 and subsequent years. This does it better and is more successful than anything else on this, on this Al.

[Stephen Hyden]

I can't stand it though.

[Rob Mitchum]

I can't stand the rain.

[Stephen Hyden]

All my.

[Rob Mitchum]

Life I've seen rain and I've seen.

[Stephen Hyden]

Red rain I can't stand it no I can't stand it all See red rain go away I can't take down my rain today oh, no I can't stand it all can't stand enough rain Rain I can't take no more. I can't stand I can't stand the rain I can't stand I can't stand.

[Rob Mitchum]

The rain.

[Stephen Hyden]

Can'T stand the rain Go. I can't stand I can't stand. The rain wow. Look at us. Like, I don't know if this. If this shows our evolution during the course of our. Our first season or if it just speaks to this show, right, that we're standing up for Tennessee Jet and looks like rain.

[Rob Mitchum]

If somebody's running like a sports book on what we're going to pick as our MVPs from episode to episode, the long shots really cancel. Cashed in on this one, I think.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, I think so. Well, we have. Next we have He's Gone, which is a war horse. And, you know, this is. I think this is another highlight of. Of the record. And, I mean, I don't think it's the best version of He's Gone, although I. I do tend to have affection for, like, later versions of this song, because I think this song and like, Ro Jimmy, some of the more sort of, you know, dirgy Grateful Dead ballads, I. I think sometimes that they're enhanced by, you know, having, like, a ravaged Jerry Garcia voice and, you know, some of the more lethargic pacing of Later Dead. I think that benefits this song. I mean, this is, you know, sort of a funeral. You know, this. This does have a funeral feel sometimes to it. And. And certainly, you know, you could say that. I don't know if there's, like, a subliminal tip of the cap to Brent. I mean, again, it's always weird to me that, like, the Grateful Dead were never more. They were never very explicit about paying tribute to people who died that were close to them. And I think maybe that was just their way. You know, maybe they didn't want to acknowledge the casualties that were happening around them. You know, that would have maybe been too much of a bummer, you know, as they were moving forward. But, you know, you think maybe, like, a normal band would say, this song's for Brent, and they would play He's Gone or something, and there's none of that, but I guess maybe we can pretend that on some level, this was a tribute to him.

[Rob Mitchum]

When they played this song, I think it absolutely was. I mean, it's the. It's not the first one after Brent died. I played another one earlier in this tour. But so that this is where you can find a couple videos online of this show. I think the He's Gone is online, and then the I Need a Miracle Morning Dew is online on YouTube, if you want to search for those. But the. Whatever YouTuber posted this show, like, very conspicuously dropped in picture of Brent in the middle of this. He's Gone during the Nothing's gonna bring him Back part, which, you know, sort of made the subtle message of this performance clear. But I. You know, it's one of those things where there's so much communication between the Dead and their fan base that they don't even need to say this one's for Brent or something very direct like that. Like, everybody just kind of gets it. Like, I really think most people understood that this was a Brent tribute. And I just want to point out that He's Gone is. Even though it was, yes, written about Lenny Hart originally, as we've gone over it very clearly was about, you know, dead members of. With the Dead, recently deceased people in the Grateful Dead circle by the end of its run. And this is a version that I think absolutely is haunted by Brent's ghost and is a very long version and a very emotional version throughout. So I think that's why people. A lot of people, I think, point to this as the highlight of this show, which I can understand. And I think it's a pretty. It's a pretty solid version, and it actually goes really interesting places after the Nothing's gonna Bring him Back Sing along y part. But, yeah, it's. Yeah, it's definitely people's favorite for emotional reasons as much as musical reasons, I think.

[Stephen Hyden]

I mean, did they. Did they put video of Brent during the actual show or was that just like in the YouTube video?

[Rob Mitchum]

That was unclear to me because it was like, it was a handheld camera footage of the show, but it had, you know, sort of a very amateurishly edited in Brent portrait shot halfway through the performance, which kind of looked like it was something from the original, like, VHS copy of that handheld fan cam footage rather than something that, like, the uploader to YouTube put in there.

[Stephen Hyden]

But, yeah, okay.

[Rob Mitchum]

I think, you know, even if you read some of the comments on Archive or DeadNet or places that talk about this specific show, everybody was like, oh, yeah, the Brent tribute was amazing, and he's Gone. So they. They didn't need to Say anything. I think everybody just knew it.

[Stephen Hyden]

Well, I really like the, you know, the. The nothing's going to bring them back part. I feel like that is the highlight of this song. And like, as you said, like, how long they stretch it out, like even more than usual, just. And that's probably the best Jerry's voice sounds in this show. Like, just the soulfulness of his vocals, I think really comes through there and the emotion that's being expressed there. And it leads into this section of the show where. And it's split into three tracks on the record and it's divided over two CDs. It's the no MSG Jam Into Drums into Space. Space ends up being on disc three. And it's about 25 minutes. And, you know, you and I were talking about this. I think it's fair to say that this like, 25 minute stretch is like the most like, freeform music that we've heard on a Dix Picks so far. For better or worse. Like, I feel like there's parts of it that work, like, fairly well and other parts that seem a little direction, like, lacking direction. I don't know if any of it is, like, truly like, transcendent. I would say, like, my favorite part would probably be the no MSG jam part, which is like a terrible name. I don't, like, I don't know how they would have credited that otherwise if they just would have called a jam or if they would have just put it as part of He's Gone. I mean, it does feel like its own thing because it's sort of this, like, jazzy instrumental where it's like really like Bruce, Vince and Phil playing off each other.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, yeah. It's really interesting that like, and Bruce mentioned this in this Is all the Dream. We dream that one of the ways that they would improvise and sort of, I think, try to cut down this huge sound into a more manageable subset of the Duds lineup at this point was that they would sort of organize these little trios of band members and just let those three people improvise off each other for a few minutes at a time. And so this one breaks down where it is just Phil and the keyboardists. And to my ears, the drummers are gone for sure. Pretty sure Bob and Jerry are gone as well. And so you just get to hear this very jazzy interplay between the three of them, which calls back to, you know, some of these, like, early 70s, 73, 74 feelings where you had this more jazzy Dead style. And I Think part of that is Bruce bringing the piano back into the mix, but also Phil taking that sort of jazz bass, lead bass role on as well. And that's. Yeah, that's the part I like the best of this segment as well. It very. It turns into like a pretty dark show all of a sudden, which is funny after, you know, the Samson Iko Iko opener and Looks Like Rain being, you know, moody, a moody song, but still very arena rocky and has a big emotional finish and he's gone being the sort of memorial ballad for a fallen compatriot. And then the jam just goes into a really dark direction and stays extremely freeform for, as you say, about a half hour in the middle of this show, which I too, again, it's another thing that I like more on paper than I like in my years where it's nice that the Dead got some. So strange even at this time, where they were at the height of their late popularity, where everybody thought a Grateful Dead show was this stereotypical happy hippie noodly like, we're dancing the China cat sunflower sort of experience. Instead it's like, it's just as weird as the. The sea stones from 74 that they cut out. Right? Like, yeah, I don't think this is substantially more accessible than all this music that we theorized just a couple volumes ago was too strange to release. And then here we go, like just a couple volumes later and it's, you know, jazz odyssey, Grateful Dead style, right at Madison Square Garden.

[Stephen Hyden]

And I was. I almost feel like the Seastones was, like, more accessible than this. Like, I feel like even that was a little more accessible. I mean, again, I agree with you. You like the. The idea of this. I really love. And I love that the Dead would go off like this at this point in their career at Madison Square Garden, you know, and. And just assume that people would. Would go along with them. And it was also, you know, as you were talking, it kind of made me think too, like. Like, if we're going to say that he's gone, was this, you know, largely unspoken or, like, understood tribute to Brent? I almost wonder if, like, this jam was like an expression of, like, grief for Brent, you know what I mean? Just because, like you said, it goes in such a dark direction here, especially in contrast to how this set starts, you know, which is very up and very arena rock and like, let's party. And this is like, this is the anti party, you know, like, we're going. We're going into hell here. And parts of this and I just wonder, you know, on some level if it's an expression of just the darkness that was in the band, you know, that they weren't. That they were sort of trying to deny was there, you know, but it just comes to the surface in this jam. Sam. It. Sam.

[Rob Mitchum]

Right. And really, other than the I need a miracle that we're coming up on, this is a pretty down set for the rest of the show, right? There's nothing, there's no party songs for the rest of this entire performance. It is either very slow, emotional songs or freeform jamming with, you know, every effect available to a guitarist and keyboardist switched on at the same time. Not to mention the drums. I mean, this drum segment is full on psychedelic drums, which I could, again, I can appreciate, but the, the phasing that is going on if you listen to the show on headphones is truly nauseating to me. Like it is setting off my, my inner ear in some way that I can't quite biologically described. But I start getting dizzy at some point because they've got like, you know, Mickey's playing his talking drum. There's. They're both just like banging on their rototoms like as hard as they can, and Dan Healy is just sliding that left, right balance back and forth, you know, for all it's worth. There's kind of a cool droney part at the end which almost sounds like Phil is out there and playing bombs, but I think it's actually Bob Brelov because one of his jobs at this point was to segue from drums to space. So usually the drummers would sort of wind down whatever they were doing and he's off on the side of the stage looping in whatever pre prepared tones or midi, MIDI effects that he has available to kind of launch the guitarist and keyboardists into the space part of that segment. So that's kind of cool to hear, but also the kind of thing that I only need to hear once.

[Stephen Hyden]

Right, right.

[Rob Mitchum]

And not over and over again.

[Stephen Hyden]

I mean, was that, I mean, do you think like that was part of, like, why this show was picked just because of the uniqueness of that, of this set? I mean, because I feel like the other shows don't really have, like, I don't feel like they're as freeform as this one from the run. And I think maybe that was part of the appeal. I don't know.

[Rob Mitchum]

Right. Knowing that Dick is such a huge fan of early dead, especially 7374 specifically, I do hear like these things I keep bringing up about hearing that sort of jazz rock element that really was like the. The 7374 dad was most representative of. I think it's possible that Dick's ears were catching that same sort of reference or that same resemblance, and that's what made this show stand out to him versus the later shows in the run that came out on the road trips. I do think that this exceptionally freeform second set or the. The direction that it goes. Yeah, you're right. It's probably pretty unique for a Dead show at this time, and that might have been what made it stand out to Dick, but it's all guesswork, really.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah.

[Rob Mitchum]

I mean, this is. It's a very strange show to pick.

[Stephen Hyden]

Right.

[Rob Mitchum]

Even for the fan club release series that this was.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, I mean, we keep saying this, but again, I feel like it's a show that would appeal to a collector who is looking for something unique, maybe even more so than something that's, like, pleasurable to put on, you know, because that's. That's the impression I get from the show, like, listening to it. We go into Standing on the Moon after that freeform section, and this is a song from Built to Last. And I actually think it's a. It's a pretty, like, beautiful song in a lot of ways. Although the thing that trips me up about this, about this performance, is the rhythm section, to me, is so halting and irregular, and I don't know what the deal is. It's like the song just gets slower and slower. It just sounds like a car that has, like, four flat tires, you know, trying to move forward, you know, It's. I don't know. It just sounds hamstrung when I listen to it. Like. How'd you feel?

[Rob Mitchum]

Well, I'm pretty sure that Jerry is the one that slows it down. It starts out pretty slow, and they do the first verse, and then Jerry just hits, like, the chords incredibly hard and incredibly slow until the rest of the band slows down to the even slower tempo that he wants to perform the song at. That's what I hear. At least. I don't know if that's actually true. But to me, I think Jerry wanted them to play it even dirgier than they came out. Came out Swinging From Space with. And maybe that's part of. Too. Why the, you know, nearly half hour of freeform jamming doesn't really deliver for me, is that I like Standing on the Moon a lot. I think it's a pretty nice, like, late period ballad for the Dead that maybe didn't ever get like the classic version that it deserved just because the band wasn't really at its sharpest when that was in the repertoire. But this what you really want, I think from a dead show of this era is that like very out there psychedelic exploration that then delivers with a big emotional payoff. And you maybe get that later on in this show with the Morning Dew, which is quite good. But the Standing on the Moon doesn't quite get there. So you don't really get the tension release that you want from like an 80s 90s show with a big drum space segment.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah. And it goes on for nine, like nine and a half minutes too, which is. And you feel those nine and a half minutes just because of how slow it feels. And then from there we go into another almost six minute jam which is called Lunatic Preserve. Another example of sort of a wacky name being put onto a jam segment. But yeah, I mean, it's like they go back into space after Standing on the Moon.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, there's almost three spaces in this show.

[Stephen Hyden]

Right.

[Rob Mitchum]

Pre space, space. There's space and there's the post space space. And that's what we got here.

[Stephen Hyden]

And again, I feel like it's another instance where in theory I like what they're doing. I appreciate the effort or the uniqueness of this set, but it doesn't quite pull off for me here.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, there's just no anchor to these jams. That's what makes them feel especially freeform because everybody's just kind of doing a lot without really electing somebody to stay back and hold down a structure to the song. And again, I'm really disappointed in what the drummers are providing here because when it starts getting weirder and weirder after Standing on, the mood gives way to this freeform jam. They just totally drop out. And then when they come back, it's again the same. Like they're just hitting everything they can reach. There's no. Like, if you had like a really strong backbone to this jam, I mean, I think it would sound a little bit like those like 73, 74 playing in the bands, which are clearly drawing upon a sort of Electric Miles feel.

[Stephen Hyden]

Right, right.

[Rob Mitchum]

Which, that, that era, early 70s electric miles. Everybody's going off in their own directions and there's a whole lot going on. But you always have like a really tight rhythm section keeping some sort of motor behind it. And the dead, at this point they just don't have anybody doing that. And maybe at some point Bruce would be capable of doing that, but I don't Think Bruce in his second show is gonna step up and say, oh, I'll hold down the bass line for you guys while you're all playing with every effect in your rig and, you know, soloing like you're the lead instrument.

[Stephen Hyden]

Well, and of course, the big difference between. Well, one of the big differences between 73, 74 dead and 90 dead is that there's one drummer in, you know, early 70s, and it's just easier for one guy to hold it down. And I mean, obviously Bill was one of the great rock drummers of all time, especially in that era. And now you have two guys in 1990. Yeah, it's just harder to have that sort of foundation. So we, we transition, I think, hilariously out of Lunatic Preserve into I Need a Miracle, which is just, you know, and I say this affectionately, just like a. A totally stupid song that I, I kind of like in spite of itself. I mean, this song had originally appeared on Shakedown street, and I think at the time it was perceived as. Well, this is the Grateful Dead trying to have a hit, you know, because it sounds like. Like a rock song from the late 70s, essentially. And it ended up having a life in Dead culture because, you know, this was the thing that you would hold up if you were trying to find a ticket from people. I Need a Miracle. So it has that resonance. But, yeah, I mean, this seems like another textbook example of Bob pulling out a fun, crowd pleasing song once things get a little too weird. And really, I mean, yeah, Bob is probably just, just like chomping at the bit at this point because there's been a lot of. A lot of free form playing yet a very dirgy, you know, songbook, you know, in. In the middle there with Standing on the Moon and he's like, all right, all right, guys, let's party again. I'm gonna play I Need a Miracle.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

And I gotta say, I mean, in a way, I didn't mind it because it was like, okay, well, I know what, I know what we're doing here. At least, you know, this is at least logical to me. It's not great, but it's coherent. So I, you know, so I appreciated it on that level.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah. No, it is really funny how Bob just kind of drops out of this show. Like it's at this point, what, like an hour since Looks Like Rain and it's been all Jerry songs or just freeform improv. So, yeah, I mean, I Need a Miracle is a really hilarious choice coming out of an hour of cosmic exploration to start singing about. I Need a woman who's twice my age and height and whatever the rest of the song goes into. I mean, it's. Yeah, it's fine. It's. It's a nice Bob song that you can throw late in a set. And it's funny, I guess, that Jerry then immediately steers the mood back to apocalyptic, mournful seriousness with a Morning Dew, which is a really great Morning Dew. And it's. You know, if you had put that at the end of, you know, drum space, maybe it all would have played a little better for me. Right. Because Morning Dew. I mean, there's not really that I found really, a bad version of this song. And it always seems to bring out the best of Jerry, no matter how old he is or how tired he is, both vocally and in terms of his guitar playing. And, yeah, this is a really good one. And, yeah, it gives the show a nice, you know, resolution after a very long period of testing the audience.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, it is funny, like, how it's almost like Bob is like, well, let's change the subject. And he plays. You know, we go into I Need a Miracle, and Jerry's like, no, we're going back into the darkness. I'm gonna do Morning Dew. Yeah, I mean, I feel like Morning Dew. Again, we've sung the praises of Morning Dew. This is another song that ends up on a lot of Dick's Picks. But, like, we don't complain about it like we do with maybe Cold Rain and Snow. Because it's always great to hear Morning Dew. And I think this is another song, and you just alluded to this where even when Jerry gets older and his voice is more ravaged and in the Dead aren't the band that they once were, this song still really comes off well. And I think, in a way, it has a different kind of resonance when you hear, like, an older Jerry Garcia play doesn't have, I think, like, the clarity of a Morning Dew, like from the early 70s. Like, that just like that perfect, sparkling beauty that those had. This is more of, like, you know, like a. More of a lumbering, rough around the edges type beauty. You know, like, you've been. You're sort of struggling to get back to where you were, but you're still able to pull it off. Like that sort of, like, melancholy that comes from that. And I think that really comes through in here. And, you know, again, you know, we've talked about MVPs. I think this is also another MVP. It's sort of like calling Michael Jordan the MVP. You know, like, it's a boring choice. You don't ever. You don't always just want to pick Michael Jordan as the MVP of the league. That's, like, also the case with Morning Dew. But, yeah, it's just amazing, like, how often this song delivers. There's got to be bad versions of this. Maybe we'll ask our listeners, tweet us bad versions of Morning Dew. I'd be curious. There's probably, like, some, like, version from, like, 1984 where they played it super fast or something.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

You know, but, like. Yeah, but otherwise, yeah, this song has one of the highest batting averages of any Grateful Dead song.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah. And it gives. Yeah, it's. It's a great way to end a set. And then. I mean, Jerry keeps it bleak with an encore of It's All Over Now, Baby Blue. So, yeah, it's a real downer of a show, man.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah.

[Rob Mitchum]

But, yeah. Yeah, I like this Baby Blue, as you said. I think it's not. It's probably not the best version they played. And I like that Baby Blue is. It might be the longest running of the Dead Dylan covers because they played it all the way back to the early, early days of the Grateful Dead, when they were playing it like, them style. Like a sort of psychedelic, almost birdsy, electric folk rock version of It's All Over Now, Baby Blue. Now, it has sort of been 80s Dylanized, like, a lot of the Dead's covers. But, yeah, it's. I think it might be my favorite Bob Dylan song, so I'm not gonna complain. And it's. It's a fitting encore for this show. If they played one more Saturday night or something. That would have been a bit of a desperation move.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, it's. I think this is like. Like I said before, I think this is my favorite Dylan cover that the Dead do. You know, again, like I said, I. There's Garcia band Dylan covers that I like a lot. And I think it. You know, and I. And I definitely like Jerry doing Dylan more than I like Bob doing Dylan. Although I think I appreciate the spirit that Bob brings to it and the enthusiasm. But. And I just really love this as a set closer because it's not what we expect, certainly, from the Dead. I mean, typically, they will end, like, with more of an upbeat rock song, like, leave people cheering at the end. And this is definitely more of, like, a down type song, but it totally works for me. I really like that. I really like that vibe. And the Morning Dew into. It's all renowned with Baby Blue. I think that's just a really great one, two punch at the end of a very weird kind of rocky set. You know, like they. They kind of. You know, there was a lot of turbulence on this set, but they actually brought it down to a fairly smooth landing at the end. And this is us bringing a smooth landing to our first season of this show because we're going to be taking a short break on Twitter. I was calling this our spring tour, and we're going to have a summer tour that launches. Not in the distant future, probably. I guess we don't have a specific date yet, but it'll probably be about a month and a half.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah. Like late June, early July, somewhere around there.

[Stephen Hyden]

And I'm excited to get into this next run of Dick's Picks because it's pretty much like all killer. These next several ones, like Dick's Picks, 10, I believe, is a 77 show, and then 11 is like a 72 show, and then like 12 is like a 74. So we're going to be hitting some iconic years on our summer tour.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah. And the years that Dick knew the best, where I really trust his ears. Whereas I think what's happening with, like, this set in the 80s sets is that Dick, it was just outside of his comfort zone. Right. And maybe he didn't quite pick the best. The best reflections on those eras, which is something that, you know, the Dead has gotten a lot better at down the line. And as we talked about with this road trips that pulls from other shows in this run, there's. There's a good way to portray this era of the Dead. And maybe the full show treatment was not the right choice in this case. Or maybe just picking the show was not the right choice. But, yeah, certainly a lot to talk about and some things to admire and some things to give you a headache or nausea or any number of other side effects that you don't totally associate with listening to one of your favorite bands.

[Stephen Hyden]

I would definitely recommend checking out. What is it? It's like Road Trips two, Volume one.

[Rob Mitchum]

It's Volume two, number one.

[Stephen Hyden]

Number one. I actually.

[Rob Mitchum]

It's quite good. Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah. I think that's like a really good record, I think. And again, I mean, we talked about this with Dick's pick seven. Like how those 74 shows in September of 74 in England, they're not necessarily like all that well regarded among fans, but, like the way that that Dick's Picks was curated, it's actually a really great Dick's Picks because they've really taken, like, the best parts. They're cherry Picking really well. And I think they actually do that on the. On. On that road Trips record. I really like that. And, like, there's a really cool dark star on there. There's a China Rider on there. You know, there's some really great stuff. So, like, I feel like it also is.

[Rob Mitchum]

Like, it might be just mixed a little better, too, to my ears. Like, Vince is a little less loud and, you know, again, one last. Poor Vince for this episode. Like, I don't think it was totally Vince's fault in a lot of cases, and. But some of the things that he's doing, I think are much better experienced, you know, deeper in the mix rather than right out front with everybody else. So you crank up Bruce 50%, you crank down Vince 50%, and it sounds like a totally different band. So that set really does a great job of, you know, showing how this lineup could really excel, whereas this one is showing a lot of ways that they could go horribly wrong and a few ways that they could excel.

[Stephen Hyden]

But definitely, again, I think, you know, on the plus side of DixPix9, I do appreciate the freeform nature of, like, a lot of this set, and it's definitely fun to explore at least once and to appreciate that the Dead were a band that would do this even at this point in their history, you know, that they would play a show like this that was kind of nutty and off the wall, but definitely a one of a kind show. And even though I feel kind of bad that we're ending our first season with the worst, is it fair to say this is the worst six picks of the first nine that we've done?

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah, I would. Yeah, I'd say that easily.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah. Yeah. Hands down, probably. You know, I feel like we're ending with a round and round, like our. You know, like, we're ending our set with a round and round right now. But, you know, but again, you know, even. Even mediocre Dead is still pretty cool to check out. So I'm. You know, I'm. I was glad to have explored this record.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah. And plenty to talk about as always, here on 36 from the vault. So let us rest our Dead listening ears for a few weeks, and we'll come back fresh as daisies to talk about some great 70s shows.

[Stephen Hyden]

Yeah, we're gonna. You could say that we're. You could say that we're about to take a step back in. Another step back. Another step back.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yeah.

[Stephen Hyden]

But we'll be back soon. All right, guys, thanks again. We'll talk to you soon.

[Rob Mitchum]

Yep. Thank you all.

[Stephen Hyden]

36 from the Vault is hosted by me, Stephen Hyden and Rob Mitchum and produced by Osiris Media. It is edited and produced by Brian Brakeman and mastered by Matt Dwyer. All music is composed by Amar Sastry unless otherwise noted. Logo design is by Liz B. Art and Design. The executive producer of 36 from the Vault is RJB. Acast Powers the World's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.

[Rob Mitchum]

All right. My show, Indisputable with Dr. Rashad Richie has hit 1 million podcast downloads because of you. This is huge. That means we're in the top 5% of all podcasts among listeners. I want to thank you for listening to the show and supporting what we do. Iron sharpens iron. On this show we dive into the most pressing news of our time. It's not easy, but it's necessary, providing insightful commentary and a heavy dose of fact based truth. We cover criminal justice politics, social justice policy and how racism affects us all. Find indisputable with Dr. Rashad Rich on Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Make sure you are subscribed to our show so you don't miss an episode. And don't forget to rate us with five stars. Now that we've reached 1 million podcast downloads, let's get our show to number one in the podcast charts.

[Stephen Hyden]

This is Lawrence Lanahan, journalist, musician and host of Rearranged, an Osiris Media podcast about music arranging. Once a song is written, arrangers make musical decisions that shape how we end up hearing the song. We're not just talking about adding orchestral accompaniment like horns and strings, or doing a cover version of a song Arrangement can be putting happy music over dark lyrics, using samples, recording all acoustic. Even tiny decisions like putting an electronic loop into an acoustic song to draw your attention to an important turn a phrase. It's all arranging. Rearranged Episodes are documentary essays where I use arrangements to answer some big questions like what is a song and what can a song become? And how can the sound of a song change the meaning you take from it? Listening this way has changed my relationship with music. Tune in to Rearrange and maybe it'll happen for you too. Learn [e-mail] Osiris.