Steve (4:27)

Rob, you picked this one. What are we gonna be talking about?

Rob (4:29)

Yeah, just to mention up top that our little mini tour here is presented by smartwool.

Steve (4:35)

Oh, yes.

Rob (4:36)

Nice warm apparel for a late fall, early winter Tour. Check out SmartWool. Yeah. So we've had some tangential discussions with the Grateful dead so far. 36 from the vault was perhaps is a Grateful Dead podcast. So let's talk about what the Grateful Dead has put out since we went off the air. Most notably, there's been Dave's picks and things. There's been various Grateful Dead releases, of course, but most notably was this big giant Madison Square Garden 1980s box set put out 17 CDs, six shows, two shows each from 1988, 1981, 1982, and 1983. A really interesting set. So I have not heard the whole thing. I don't know if you have, Steve. Did you pick up this box set?

Steve (5:25)

No, no, I have not. And I haven't gotten this album yet, although, because they. They're all MSG shows. But the one that they released as a standalone album is from 81. Right. March of 81.

Rob (5:37)

That's right. March 9, 1981.

Steve (5:40)

And I do love spring of 81. Grateful Dead. I actually, you know, I've talked about how I'm not big on listening to shows in sequence, necessarily, but I did do that once. Was spring of 81, I went on a Grateful Dead tour.

Rob (5:55)

Nice. How many shows is that?

Steve (5:57)

I don't remember exactly. I didn't do the whole tour. I bailed. And I think that's where I learned. I'm like, I can't do this sequential thing a little too much for me. But I think I made about 12 or 13 shows. Um, like, the tour starts in Chicago, I believe, like, late January. Like, they play Chicago theater, I think it is, and then, you know, they end up at Madison Square Garden.

Rob (6:21)

So you didn't make it to the show when you did that tour?

Steve (6:24)

No, I think I bailed somewhere in, like, mid February.

Rob (6:28)

Okay, okay.

Steve (6:29)

But so. So, yeah, so, like, it was fun listening to this record for that reason.

Rob (6:32)

Right. So the one that they released on streaming, which is the one we're going to talk about in this episode, is that 1981 show, March 9th. I'm still kind of torn on whether I want the whole box. I think I'm going to put it on my Christmas list and see if somebody else will spend $180 on it for me. Because the reason I wanted to talk about this show is because I feel like I grew a lot over the course of 36 from the vault in my appreciation of 80s dead and Brent era Dead and this box set coming out and this particular show coming out on streaming was a great test of that. I was actually kind of excited when they released this. More so than if they had released. If they were like, here's three shows from 77, I would have been like, okay, yeah, it's another box set of 77 from the Grateful Dead. But when they announced this one has really cool looking art and packaging and everything too, I'm like, I think I really want to hear that. Which I don't think I would have said before we started recording 36 from the vaults. Because these shows, or this show in particular, is Brenty as Hell. It's a super Brenty show. I really want to talk about it with you.

Steve (7:38)

Yeah. It's funny you say that, because as we were putting these episodes together, Dave's picks 44 showed up.

Rob (7:46)

Okay.

Steve (7:46)

Yeah. And that's a show from near the end of Brent's tenure. It's University of Oregon in Eugene, June 23, 1990. So I think Brent died like a month later.

Rob (7:58)

Yeah.

Steve (7:59)

And. And by the way, I. I support you entering the 80s, embracing the 80s. I don't want to push you along too much, but if you're gonna call this show Brinty as Hell, you got to hear this. Dave's picks 44. Because you are gonna have to revise your opinion, my friend, because this show is super Brenty. We're getting solo Brent in the show. We're getting like, far from me in here.

Rob (8:24)

Okay. That's true. There is no Brent songs on here. Yeah.

Steve (8:27)

And, you know, look, I mean, this. When the CD arrived, and I don't want to hijack this by just talking about Dave's picks 44. Although I love days picks 44. This is like a great record. Kickstart would feel like a stranger into west la Fade away. I was like, hell, yeah. Here we go.

Rob (8:44)

Yeah, It's a sleazy as hell. Yeah.

Steve (8:47)

We're getting silky, silky Right away. And then we're getting to like, you know, Jerry singing about drug deals gone bad and 80s Los Angeles. You get an Eyes of the World kicking off, disc two, which I got to say, the Dead. You know, I've. I'm famous for complaining about tempos with Eyes of the World, that I am a. I'm a supremacist for 73 and 74. Eyes of the Worlds, I feel like they get too fast by the end of the 70s. I feel like in the early 90s, they started playing it at the right tempo again.

Rob (9:19)

Yeah, yeah, I think that was. Well, I always thought it was a Hornsby influence, but it sounds like it was before he came back, right?

Steve (9:26)

Yeah. And it's probably because they're a little bit older, too, so, like, they kind of aged back into playing it slower. But this Eyes of the World is. Is awesome. And so, yeah, I'm just saying I support your embrace of Brent era Grateful Dead, but you can go much Brentier

Rob (9:43)

than this and Brentiest this MSG 81.

Steve (9:48)

You're just. You're putting a toe in Brent. You can put a whole foot or your whole body in as you progress in the decade.

Rob (9:54)

Well, I would love to talk about that show with you, but I was a real dumbass and forgot to sign up for Dave's Picks for this year. I did sign up for next year. So, Dave, you have my $100. Looking forward to getting your picks next year. This show, though, okay, Talking about Brent and this show, what really stands out. And we talked about this a little bit whenever we covered a Brent show during the Dix Picks run. They are just so much better at mixing Brent shows now. So shout out to Dave for producing this set. Shout out to Jeffrey Norman, who is the guy that does the mastering on all of the modern Grateful Dead releases. I don't know what happened technologically because I know there were issues with the master tapes of 80s shows where they started recording the cheaper cassette tapes instead of reel to reels. I don't know all the details, but that was always the excuse in the Dixby series of why the 80s shows sounded pretty bad, especially relative to the 60s and 70s shows. But they figured something out. Because when Brent is properly mixed as part of the Grateful Dead sound as it is on this 81 show, I appreciate his contributions so much more. All the things that drove me nuts about Brent and the 80s shows we covered, usually really weird, artificial keyboard tones sound, I think, frankly, pretty awesome once you have them at the right volume relative to everybody else. In the band. Did you think that this stood out as something that sounded a lot better?

Steve (11:32)

Yeah, I mean it definitely sounded better than the Dick's Picks that we've heard. And you know, again with Brent, I just feel like him in the late 80s is like superior to early 80s because he is more of a presence and he is rising to the co front man role that he really had, you know, like this to keep going back to days picks 44. But there's a, there's a Cassidy on there and it's like, oh, you hear Bob and Brent singing together and we've talked about that on this show, like how that's such a great era for Cassidy. But yeah, I, I think on the, on the Dick's Picks, it's not even that he has like crazy tones. It just always sounds so plunky. It always sounds like a guy hitting like, like Attack or something. And not a, not a keyboard. And on this MSG 81 show, it sounds like an electric piano. It sounds like a real keyboard. It is interesting because you shouted out Lemieux and Jeffrey Norman and definitely shout out to them because this set does sound great. I looked at the audience recording of this show and that sounds pretty fantastic. And you look at the comments on Live Archive and the commenters at least are talking about how this is a well known audience tape that people love. And you know, I'm glad that they put out this proper release so you can hear it in its full form. But like if it didn't exist and you just heard the audience tape, like even that would sound better than the Brent era Dix picks that we heard.

Rob (13:13)

Yeah, yeah. No, after you said that, I went and listened to the audience and it doesn't sound that much different from the soundboard, to be honest. And like when I was doing sort of a close headphones listen to the official release, I noticed a lot of patches. We talked about this a lot with Dix Picks where they would patch the soundboard with an audience source. And I'm pretty sure they just use that audience source to patch it because it sounds like. And you can. Unless you're really listening on headphones and really paying attention, you don't hear it flip back and forth very obviously.

Steve (13:48)

The only difference I can really tell is that the audience is a little bit louder on the audience tape. And I mean, did they cut down on some of the. I think they cut out some of the noodling or tuning up between the songs because I feel. Because we're going to talk about the China Writer. Yes, from here. And, like, on the audience tape, I swear they're like, tuning up for like, two or three minutes before they start playing.

Rob (14:10)

Yeah, I think they might chop that out. Yeah.

Steve (14:12)

Like, on the audience, it's like the audience China is like 11 and a half minutes. Yeah.

Rob (14:17)

Yeah.

Steve (14:18)

And I think on the proper. The album that they put out, I think it's maybe eight or nine minutes. So they cut out some of the tuning. But, yeah, other than that, if you listen to them side by side, it would be hard to know which one is which.

Rob (14:32)

Right. Yeah. So, as you mentioned, I wanted to talk about the China Rider, which

Steve (14:40)

I

Rob (14:41)

want to say when I first listened to this, I was on vacation with my wife. We were in Sedona in Arizona, and I was like, I got to listen to a Dead show while we're driving around this beautiful landscape. Like, the Grateful Dead are a great road band, particularly in, like, the Southwest. I probably should have gone for maybe, like, more country rock. Dead, like, a 71 show might have been more fitting, but I was like, hey, this just came out. I'm going to put this on. I'm going to force my wife to listen to Bob do CC Rider as we're driving around in this beautiful landscape where it really. It's got a pretty good first set. It's like, what you want from an 80s dead set, right. It starts with Feel Like a Stranger. It goes into Althea. There's a Good Bird song. There's a Deep Ellen Blues, which is kind of cool. But in the middle of New Minglewood Blues, there is an absolutely bonkers sound appears in the first solo of the Jam of Minglewood Blues. And I will tell you that this is the first time since we stopped recording 36 from the vault that I was like, I wish I had a podcast to talk about this crazy sound that shows up in Minglewood Blues. I tweeted at a guy that it was like phantom limb syndrome. When people, like, have amputated limbs and they feel a tingle in the arm that isn't there anymore. It was like a phantom podcast syndrome, where I was like, this is the most 36 from the vault thing. So much to my delight, Minglewood ends the first set. It goes into the second set, and they start up China Cat Sunflower. And that same crazy sound shows up again in the first minute of China Cat Sunflower. And I was like, yes, this is what I want now from 80s dead is just some incredibly bonkers tones. But the thing was, I didn't know who was making the sound yeah, so.

Steve (16:25)

Because. Is that Brent or is that Bob doing a Talk box? Like, that was my. Like, to me, it sounds like. Like. Like Peter Frampton esque.

Rob (16:33)

Yeah.

Steve (16:34)

Or like Bon Jovi doing, you know, shot through the Heart. And you're to blame. You know, like you give love a bad name. Is that the one that has the talk box on it, or is it. Oh, okay.

Rob (16:46)

I can hear it in my head, but I can't remember the rest of. Yeah. Oh, no, you're right.

Steve (16:51)

Living out of Prayer. Living out of Prayer is the one with the toss. Yeah.

Rob (16:53)

Ye. How could I forget?

Steve (16:55)

Yeah, that sound.

Rob (16:58)

That is what it sounds like. So I immediately thought, this must be one of the guitarists, right? And usually I'm like, oh, Bobby probably made some terrible choice with his tone in the 80s. That's what I'm always complaining about. But no, Bobby's still there. And I'm like, all right. Well, Jerry was starting to get into weird. This is post Neutron, maybe. He was putting his Mutron through a weird distortion pedal and was making this crazy noise. And I listened closely, and Jerry's still there. So I've narrowed it down now to the fact that it is, indeed Brent. And what I think it is is, if you remember, the studio version of Alabama Getaway has this synthesizer solo which sounds like a synthetar. It's like a synthesized guitar. And I'm pretty sure it's the same synthesizer in the same setting. Similar sound on both Minglewood Blues and China Cat Sunflower. So it's just, like, such a hilarious and perfect 80s Grateful Dead choice that you've got two amazing guitar players playing, you know, actual guitars. And then Brent's over there, like, you know what? I'm gonna make my synthesizer sound like a guitar, too. But of course, it sounds like a synthesizer pretending to be a guitar. So it sounds like a talkbox. Or it sounds like somebody with this, like, intensely synthetic auto wa going on. It's just. It's a totally crazy decision, and I love it. So that's what first drew me to this Shiner Rider. And then that he only uses that sound in the intro. He doesn't use it the whole song or anything, which is probably a good thing. But then it turns out the more I listen to this, this China Rider is kind of amazing. I was always of the opinion that China rider after 74, let's say, was in decline. We talked about this with some of the 77 versions that popped up on Dix picks. That it was like, it's China Rider. We love hearing It. It sounds great. It can never reach the heights that it reached in 73, 74. This one really popped out to me and was like, man, this is actually a pretty serious China writer in an era that I would not have expected it to be taken into an interesting or longer direction in the jam.

Steve (19:03)

Yeah, it's interesting because you have the climax that happens during. I know you writer that we all wait for. But for the most part, I feel like they write a groove and it's not really about the big dramatic, gonna knock you over type moment. It is. I'm probably reaching with this, but, like, it's slightly Kraut rocky to me. Like, it just rides a groove and it's like you hear them interlock with each other so intricately, and it is more about just appreciating how they're able to maintain that mood over the course of, like, what is it, about 13, 14 minutes?

Rob (19:44)

Yeah.

Steve (19:45)

When you add up both songs. And that's what. That's what drew me into it because I don't think it's like an obviously great China writer the first time you hear it. It wasn't to me anyway. Like, when. When you said, you want to talk about it, I listened to it. I thought, that's pretty good. But it didn't knock me out really. It was only like after the third or fourth listen that I was really kind of appreciating, like, the subtlet. What they were doing here. And that's what I think ultimately won me over. I mean, you look this up on Headyversion. I mean, this is considered one of the great China writers, isn't it?

Rob (20:21)

Yeah. Here I am saying, wow, I can't believe this great China writer I discovered that nobody ever heard about, that Dave finally put out and what a great deep cut that he pulled out of the archive that I looked it up on Headyversion. It's the top rated 80s China writer. It's the first China writer that appears on Headyversion. It's at number 10, I believe. It's the only. The highest rated one that isn't in that, like, 70s, early 70s sweet spot. So it is even before this release came out. Was known as, like, if you want to hear a great later China writer, this is the one you go to. So this is, you know, was, I guess, common knowledge to Deadheads. Far more savvy than I, but, yeah, very well respected. And yeah, I totally agree with your take on it. It's like, it doesn't peak as hard as, like, a 70s one. It doesn't get as weird as a 70s one either. It just kind of like finds a zone and sits there for a long time. It kind of has like, a little mini peak in the jam that sounds like it's about to pop into I Know youw Rider, where I normally would. But then Jerry, like, pushes it for another couple minutes before he gets to, you know, the singing part of I Know youw Rider, which is really nice. And then the solos in Rider are particularly strong as well. So it kind of encapsulates what I like about this whole show, which is not really a show that has anything other than this. China Writer doesn't have anything superlative. Right. There's nothing that is, like an absolute classic version in this entire show. But it hits that thing that I'm starting to appreciate about the 80s dead, where it just has a really pleasant sound, floaty sound for the entire runtime. It's not made be as experimental or ambitious as a 70s Dead concert, but it has. And you're going to accuse me of it being a backhanded compliment, but it's something that sounds really pleasant and that I would love to just put on, you know, for, like, a good, solid comfort listen.

Steve (22:27)

Say. See, I think because I take issue with it not being as experimental or as mind blowing. Because I don't think that this is the peak era of Brent. I think it's like 87 to 90. And I think if you listen to the best of the Dead at that time, that's where it moves beyond something that's just pleasant or is sitting in, like, an entertainment zone or like. Like where we're just being a professional rock band. I think it does become something more transcendent at that time in that era of the Dead. And I think it's because Brent does have a bigger role in the band. I. I think he sounds better here because of the recording or how it's mixed or whatever. But he still is not as Brenty as he's going to be later on in the decade.

Rob (23:17)

Right.

Steve (23:18)

Again, I'm gonna shout out without Annette on here. Because I think if you listen to that record, you know, you listen to them, like, what they're doing with Bradford Marsalis on Eyes of the World. I'll put that with any Eyes of the world from the 70s in terms of, like, expanding what that song is and taking it in a different direction. I'll put that with any Eyes of the world from the 70s. I think that that really is them kind of pushing and taking in a different direction. So, again, I would say, like, for full on Brent, it's just not the early 80s. I think it's the late 80s. I see. I see 90 for me, anyway. I think again, I'll go back to Daze picks 44 great Brent moments on there because I think he has a little bit more to do and they gave him more free reign. What's cool about this, though, going back to the China wr, is that I think Brent is right there with Jerry and Bob in terms of the interplay. You know, you think of the interplay of the guitars and you have Phil in there, of course, taking a prominent role. But, like, what Brent is doing on it sounds like electric piano. It adds to that hypnotic groove of this version that I don't think. I mean, Keith obviously was an amazing player, but I just think, you know, Brent is adding his own flavor to it. And he's adding something that I don't think you would get from a 70s China writer, as great as those are. And obviously this China writer is an outlier in terms of all the great ones. I think if you look at that list, you have this one at number 10. And then it just goes back to the 70s. I mean, so this is a pretty unique thing. But I don't know, I love the subtlety of it. I love that it's not going for the obvious peaks, but more of like a sort of ambience, almost payoff. Like it's going to be the sum total of the zone out of this version. That's going to hit you at the end.

Rob (25:16)

It's going to wash over you. Yeah, I mean, I agree. And the electric piano thing is what I'm talking about with, like, it being properly mixed. Like it's got that sharp Brent, early 80s electric piano sound, which that one Dix picks with the Scarlet Fire. I think it's the first Dix picks with Brent where he is playing that same electric piano effect, but it sounds like somebody hitting a xylophone. It's so loud and so sharp and it just kind of ruins that Scarlet for me. It's the same effect, but I think we're finally with these, not just this release, but the Dave's Pick Sprint releases and more recent 80s great dead releases, curing what it sounds like properly balanced in the mix. And I like the sort of sonic textures that Brent brings to the table. Obviously, I'm like a Keith's partisan still, and I love what Keith does in a China Writer. But I think you're right, this is a different approach and it actually is nice to hear that after we kind of overloaded maybe on the 70s in our dick's Pick series. So, yeah, I mean, it's great. I think a couple episodes ago I said it was goose curious. I think maybe I'm 80s curious. And so, like, the early 80s is

Steve (26:33)

me

Rob (26:36)

getting into appreciation of what the 80s dead were doing. And maybe I need to work up to the late 80s a little more when Brent is, as you say, like, co leader of the band, rather than just introducing some interesting new sonic flavors that push the Dead in some different directions.

Steve (26:54)

I think, just generally speaking, I'm excited to see more shows from the 80s and 90s getting released. There was a recent Dave's Picks from Dave's picks 39, where it was 1983. You know, 83. Not necessarily regarded as like a great Grateful Dead year, but, like, that's a really cool show. Again, I'm gonna speak up for Dave's picks 44, which I've been loving. Like, that's my favorite Grateful Dead album I've heard in a while. So I just love hearing these different eras and allowing less heralded periods in the Grateful Dead to shine, because I think every period has something to give, even if it's like, you know, even if it's not your favorite era to appreciate what they were doing at a particular moment in time. It just adds to the richness of this band's story. And you don't get that if you're just listening to, you know, one decade or, you know, one lineup of this band.

Rob (27:55)

So, Steve, should I buy the box set? $175, 683.

Steve (28:01)

I think you should go on ebay and get a copy of days picks 44, which I'm hitting hard this episode.

Rob (28:09)

Can you dub a tape for me?

Steve (28:11)

Yeah, absolutely. I was just gonna shout out too, like, Dave's Picks 40 was another 1990 show that was.

Rob (28:18)

Yeah, that was Dirt Creek.

Steve (28:19)

Right.

Rob (28:20)

I have that one.

Steve (28:21)

Yeah, that's like, right before Brent died. Yeah, it was like July 18th and

Rob (28:25)

19th, like his third July show or something. Yeah.

Steve (28:27)

Yeah. I don't want to dwell on this because it's just sad and kind of spooky. But, like, he sounded really good.

Rob (28:34)

Yeah.

Steve (28:35)

Before his death. I mean, it wasn't. I don't know. I, I, I, I'm not privy to what was going on in his personal life at the time. I'm sure he wasn't living a super healthy lifestyle, given that he passed away pretty soon after this. But not translating musically. I mean, he was bringing it Right up until the end with the Dead. So it is amazing to listen to these shows and just be like, wow, he passed away so soon. He basically got off the road and died on this tour. It's just amazing. Yeah.

Rob (29:08)

Well, I feel like we've really played the greatest hits here at the end of our mini tour, Steve, because we're talking about how sad Brent's death was. Was how good without a net is me complaining about keyboard and guitar tones. We really gave the fans what they wanted here, I think, at the end of our mini tour, talking about the Grateful Dead, so.

Steve (29:29)

Well, that's right. And these were our comfort listens, and hopefully it was comforting for you, too. And we want to thank smartwool again for sponsoring this mini run of mini episodes. So, yeah, thank you for listening, and I'm sure we'll be back at some point. I don't know when this isn't.

Rob (29:48)

It's not goodbye, it's just, see you later. As you can see, spontaneous things happen. Steve and I get together spontaneous jams at any time, anytime. You could get a 36 from the vault in your podcast feed.

Steve (30:01)

Exactly. Buy a lot of Smart Wool and we'll be back sooner rather than later.

Rob (30:05)

Smart Wool will send us on tour again and keep harassing us on Twitter. It was great when Rick from Goose played Tennessee Jet with Phil and Friends, and we had, like, 15 people simultaneously tweeting at us about it.

Steve (30:22)

So, yeah, I feel like I have to pretend to hate Tennessee Jed now more than I actually do. I feel like I let people down. If I'm like, I just don't like hearing it on every Dix Picks album. I actually don't hate it that much, but people don't want to hear that shit. They want to hear us hating Jed.

Rob (30:39)

Exactly.

Steve (30:40)

I'm fine doing it. So thank you all for listening to this episode of 36 from the Vault. It's been great doing this tour, and we'll see you down the road.

Rob (30:49)

Yep. See y' all later. Sa.

Steve (31:44)

Osiris.

Lawrence Lanahan (31:47)

This is Lawrence Lanahan, journalist, musician, and host of Rearranged, an Osiris Media podcast about music arranging. Once a song is written, arrangers make musical decisions that shape how we end up hearing the song. We're not just talking about adding orchestral accompaniment like horns and strings, or doing a cover version of a song. Arrangement can be putting happy music over dark lyrics, using samples, recording all acoustic, even tiny decisions, like putting an electronic loop into an acoustic song to draw your attention to an important turn of phrase. It's all arranging Rearranged episodes are documentary essays where I use arrangements to answer some big questions like what is a song and what can a song become? And how can the sound of a song change the meaning you take from it? Listening this way has changed my relationship with music. Tune in to Rearranged and maybe it'll happen for you too. Learn more@rerangedpodcast.com

Steve (32:53)

Osiris.