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Wondery plus subscribers can listen to this podcast ad free right now. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app today. True crime fans know the feeling when a story pulls you in. You can feel like part of the investigation. And with Audible, there's a lot to uncover. Listeners might like after you've gone by Margo Hunt this Audible original is a gripping thriller that follows one woman as she tries to solve her best friend's murder in the French Quarter of New Orleans. As an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog, including the latest bestsellers and new releases. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com 48 hours or text 48 hours to 500500 audible.com 48 hours hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. At Mint Mobile, we like to do the opposite of what big wireless does. They charge you a lot, we charge you a little. So naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices due to not hating you. That's right. We're cutting the price of mint unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch $45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first 3 month plan only. Taxes and fees, extra Speed slower above 40 gigabytes. C Details I'm Dan Rather. He wanted to be a hero. And to many he was. Until he was charged with murder. 48 hours right now. Patrick Bradford was cut out to be a cop. All my dreams as a kid had to do with being a hero, rushing in and saving the day. But when his girlfriend was murdered, he found himself the lead suspect. Pretty quickly come clear to us that Patrick Bradford was the guy his fellow officers felt the heat. To point the finger at one of your own is very difficult. His conviction stunned family and friends. There aren't enough words to describe how outraged and upset the whole thing made me. This childhood friend even went to law school just to help set him free. I felt like David going up against Goliath. Susan Spencer has the first television interview with Patrick Bradford. Tammy's dead. Somebody killed her. Now somebody who she loved more than anybody else is paying for it. Was there a rush to judgment? He wanted to be the best policeman that ever was. A cop behind bars. Patrick Bradford was once a proud police officer. There's no question I was exceptionally good at it. It came naturally for me. And it was just like being right where you're supposed to be, where he should not be, says Bradford, is where he is today, in prison serving 80 years for murdering his girlfriend, Tammy Lohr. Tamera lohr died from 21 stab wounds to the back, neck and face before her body was set on fire. The sensational crime rocked Evansville, Indiana. Tammy, a 24 year old civilian jailer, was attractive, popular and energetic. She was just a beautiful girl. She was real independent, always had a mind of her own, always had a pretty smile, real bubbly personality. And Tammy's parents firmly believe Patrick Bradford killed her. I think they got the right person. Yes, he's the right person and he is in the right place. But Bradford has insisted from the start he had nothing to do with Tammy's murder. Tammy's dead. Somebody killed her and that's not the end of it. Now somebody who didn't kill her, somebody who she loved more than anybody else is paying for it. At least one person believes him with all her heart. There aren't enough words to describe how outraged and upset and frightened the whole thing made me. Deborah Nolan is working to overturn Bradford's nine year old conviction. She's perhaps his closest friend and his case has changed her life. The first thing you look at is whether the trust is valid. At 34, she quit her teaching job to study law. What time is this section tonight? How much of your interest in going to law school was a direct result of just wanting to do something in this situation? That was a deciding factor. I never would have done it if it hadn't been for this case. Their friendship goes back to childhood, to memories of playing with Patrick and his little brother Joe. He was always just a patient older brother, always looking out for me. Helped me learn to ride a bicycle, how to swim. Saved me once, pulled me out of the water. He stuck up for me a lot and I just worshiped the ground he walked on. When I was growing up, he was the big brother Deborah didn't have. When he found out that I didn't have a date to my junior prom, I think he coerced one of his friends into asking me to go. You got her a date for the prom? She said yeah. It was a disaster. After high school, Deborah left town, got married and became a teacher. Patrick, meanwhile, joined the police. He just had that certain way of looking at the world like it's his responsibility to make things right. He wanted to be the best policeman that ever was. What's he like as a person? He had a good sense of humor and he was good with people. We had the Barrel. This is the magazine this is the Forend guy. Minniz, who trained 24 year old Bradford back in 1986, thought his rookie charge had a promising career. I had a lot of respect for him. I thought he was a good hard nosed cop. I guess I saw some of myself in him because I wanted to be a policeman more than anything in the world. And I really believe that Patrick felt the same way. And Bradford lived up to those promises. In June of 1990, a local TV crew caught this on tape. He spent six or eight hours with a guy who had a loaded gun trying to talk him out of committing suicide. And he had been given instructions to take the guy down and he didn't. He was able to talk him out of it and get him out safely. You enjoyed being a cop? Yeah, that's what I wanted to do. You know, all my dreams as a kid had to do with being a hero, rushing in and saving the day. Bradford was at police headquarters when he first met Tammy Lohr. She was just wonderful. The kind of person who would sort of light up her surroundings. Their friendship soon blossomed into a romance, but both were ignoring one big problem. Bradford was married to his high school sweetheart, dawn, and they had two young children. You're crossing boundaries continually and as you get used to crossing the boundaries and before long it's, well, I've gone this far, far enough to even pose for professional portraits. I even shock myself when I think back to what great extents we went to be together and how much pain it caused my wife and my family and her family. Patrick says he actually thought about leaving dawn but never quite could follow through. I would guess that the family situation, the children and the genuine love, I think between us that was still there, is what held it together. But it wasn't enough love to make you say, I'm gonna give up Tammy. No, certainly not. There was a character flaw there that allowed me to go ahead and make that choice. And he made that choice every single time his wife confronted him. You told your wife that you were going to stop seeing Tammy? Correct. How many times did you tell her that? Probably verbally, twice or three times maybe. And did you mean it when you said it? I could have. But then it wasn't to be. I wasn't going to do that. On the night of August 1, 1992, Patrick Bradford dropped by Tammy's house on his way to work. We saw each other essentially every day. He then began his overnight shift. It was a regular Saturday night. Pretty busy, very busy, but that's not unusual at all. You would expect to be really busy on a Saturday night in the summertime, as usual. On his way home the next morning, he headed back to Tammy's house. The streets were fairly deserted. It was a Sunday morning. And then he says he noticed something alarming. There was smoke coming from under the eaves of the house. His thoughts immediately turned to Tammy. It was obvious that it was an involved house fire coming up. I went into the house to see if I could get her out or find her. Patrick Bradford, heroic cop, becomes a prime murder suspect. I think that there's a side of him that was a very dark side, very dangerous. That's next. Police officer Patrick Bradford seems well suited to the quiet community of Evansville, Indiana. I was a very good family man, good father, loving husband. But Bradford was living a double life. He was driving over to see his girlfriend, Tammy Lohr, when he says he realized with horror that her house was on fire. I started to go into that professional mode of trying to do something. So what did you do? I went into the house to see if I could get her out or find her crawling beneath the smoke. He says he could see into Tammy's bedroom. I could see what looked like flames arcing out from underneath where the bed would be. I felt like it was pretty hopeless that she couldn't survive that. He says he went no further. You know, I was disoriented and, and I paused for just a moment there and then just crawled right back out the way I'd come. Once outside, Patrick radioed for help. Firemen quickly arrived and when the blaze was out, made a grisly discovery. Tammy Lohr stabbed 21 times. Her body and bedroom then set ablaze with gasoline in the living room. Her dog lay stabbed to death as well. That morning, Bradford gave a statement. Line up the sight, guy. Minnis, who once trained Bradford, now was the lead detective on the case. I liked him. I liked Patrick. You were fairly quite cooperative. You even provided them with a list of possible suspects. I did do that. When somebody's murdered, that's what you do. You try to find out who did it. High on Patrick's list was a former co worker of Tammy's, one finus, Vincent junior. Tammy had complained about sexual comments Vincent had made and he partly blamed her for losing his job. He considered her an enemy. And just five months before, Tammy had reported seeing Vincent slouched in his car outside her home around 3am there's no question about that. You know, he didn't care for Tammy. He was known to have kind of a Hot temper and was definitely a guy that, you know, you need to have to look at. Minnis and his partner visited Vincent that same morning. His wife was standing just a few feet away. I would watch his wife and kind of, you know, look for surprised looks or whatever, and I didn't see anything like that. We both felt that this was a waste. He also looked at Dawn Bradford. Patrick's wife, Tammy Lohr, was an athlete. She was a jock, and she was strong as a moose. Dawn was very frail, very small, and I don't think that she could handle Tammy with a hand grenade and a machine gun. But Minnis was reluctant to consider the other obvious suspect, Patrick Bradford. I just have a hard time believing that Evansville city police officer would stab his girlfriend to death, kill the dog, set the house on fire. That happens someplace else. That doesn't happen here. Fire investigator Jesse Story had no such qualms. It pretty quickly come clear to us that Patrick Bradford was the guy. Even that first afternoon. By then you were sure that he had done it. Absolutely. Fireman had the fire out about eight minutes after Patrick called for help. Story says the damage in the room showed him that the fire burned less than 10 minutes, start to finish. Therefore, if Patrick Bradford didn't do this, he could tell us who did, because he would have had to been standing beside him. As far as whodunit type, physical evidence, fingerprints, murder weapon, nothing. Nothing. Hard evidence or not, crime scene investigator Mike Ford says the scene itself implicated Officer Bradford. It looked at first like a break in a window screen was cut. This is the screen from the kitchen window. From the kitchen window, phone wires were severed. Circuit breakers in the basement were thrown. But it was all a ruse, Ford says. Take that window screen. The sides, the bottom and the side are cut straight, but the top, it just jags all the way down. That edge is jagged, he believes, because it was cut from inside the house along the bottom edge of the open window. So what was cut out then was the same size as the window opening from the inside. If you had been on the outside, it would have gone the entire screen out. Exactly. Ford notes that a sink full of dishes beneath the window was undisturbed. He thinks Bradford staged the break in to mislead investigators all the stuff he did in that house to make it look like a unknown burglar came in to commit this crime. He wanted to make as obvious as he could. James Lofton, a neighbor, happened to see Bradford drive up to Tammy's. He was out walking his dog. And he did report that Bradford was Upset after the fire, he seemed like a nice fellow, and I put my hand on his shoulder and kind of consoled him. He was crying. But Lofton did not see the smoke Patrick claimed he saw when he first drove up. Now, granted, Mr. Lofton was an old man, but still, he didn't smell smoke. He didn't see smoke. Why didn't you just turn to Mr. Lofton and say, for God's sakes, the house is on fire. You know, call the fire department, do something. I wish I had only in retrospect, because that would have probably prevented everything that followed. Meanwhile, the press was having a field day. August 3rd is the date of this paper, and it's already starting to name him a policeman among slaying suspects, putting Guy Minnis under enormous pressure. If Patrick did not do this, we had to prove with 110%, you know, certainty that he did not do it, because there would always be people that would say, oh, the Evansville Police Department covered this up and they were taking care of one of their own menace still could not believe that this good cop could kill. And so he was thrilled to discover that a security camera at a nearby bank had been rolling when Bradford's car drove by a mere 65 seconds before he called for help. I thought that, you know, there's no way, there was no way at that time that he could do all his stuff in 65 seconds. No way to drive to the house, kill Tammy and the dog, stage an elaborate break in, pour gasoline, and start a fire. I called Patrick and said, hey, we've got exactly what we need to clear you. Did someone else kill Tammy Lohr? Next, a new theory of the crime. Americans agree that everyone should be able to make their own health care decisions. You and only you should control your healthcare decisions. But the truth is, attacks on reproductive healthcare, including abortion, are only intensifying. That's why your gift to Planned Parenthood is so important right now. No matter the battle, no matter the stakes, no matter what, Planned Parenthood is there. Protect our rights, protect our healthcare. Make your gift to planned parenthood@plannedparenthood.org Protect. This message comes from Greenlight. Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely, and invest. With your guardrails in place. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids instantly, set up chores automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Join millions of parents and kids building healthy Financial habits together on greenlight. Sign up for greenlight today@greenlight.com wondery that's greenlight.com wondery to the state of Indiana, former police officer Patrick Bradford is just another inmate in the system looking at 80 years for murdering his girlfriend, Tammy Lohr. It's like trying to walk through mud up to your knees. Anything you wish you could do for yourself, you just can't do. To his lifelong friend, Deborah Nolan, Bradford is an innocent man wronged by an investigation out of control. The police department was up against a wall. They had this huge shining light on them. I think they took some shortcuts. I think they jumped to some conclusions because it was just so hot. Fire whenever you're ready. But detective Guy Minnis insists the cops were meticulous. Even though I didn't believe he did it, I knew that there were a lot of people that believed that he did do it. People that I respected very much. Timing was everything. A bank camera showed Bradford driving to Tammy Lohr's just 65 seconds before he called for help. Too little time to commit murder and set a fire. I considered that the proof of my innocence right there. At first, the detectives thought that Bradford was cleared. But then some investigators came up with a new theory. What if he had murdered Tammy Lohr not that morning, but the night before? 2 Williams Tate lore. Bradford had ironclad alibis for almost every minute during his patrol that night. I was really amazed at just how much of that night was accounted for. But there was one quiet hour when his only call to base was to report seeing one George Russell, a man who'd had frequent run ins with the law in a seedy part of town. Russell would later deny having been there. What about George Russell? You're laughing. You'll have to forgive me. It's somewhat humorous. Just the very idea that a police officer works the inner city would be dependent upon one of his regular people that he runs into has arrested twice for his alibi. It's just if Bradford did murder Tammy Lord during the night, then the detectives figured all he had to do in the morning was set the fire. So the question became, was 65 seconds enough time to do just that? So I did a timing test. Minnis timed out how long it would take to drive to Tammy's, pour gasoline, and ignite the fire. He was stunned at the result. When I did the timing test the very first time, it was exactly 65 seconds the time he had. Yeah. And I probably couldn't do that again if I tried. As suspicions Grew. Bradford agreed to take a polygraph. Why did you even take the polygraphs? I was looking for a resolution, I think, and I thought that there could be a resolution in that. The first test was inconclusive, but the second, Patrick failed, finally convinced Guy Menace. Patrick Bradford was guilty. Not just the polygraph convinced me. It was the interview that took place afterwards. I was going through some pretty frightened emotions there. This was the first interview that was hostile or adversarial. He seemed to crumble. He just seemed to lose it for a second. And you felt very strongly that he was about to confess. And then suddenly he would draw a deep breath of air and straighten up and square his shoulders up and almost grit his teeth and say, I didn't do it. What kind of signals might you have been giving off that would lead him to tell us that? I don't think I was giving any signals. I think he's just telling you that to support his conclusion of guilt. It got to the point that we all believed he did it. The question was, did we have enough evidence to go forward? Prosecutor Stan Lefkoe concedes the evidence he had was highly circumstantial. I was looking for just that extra piece, and we finally got it. Got it in the person of a neighbor who belatedly remembered seeing a police car in Tammy Lohr's driveway that night during the critical hour. She saw a police car there, and it reminded her that she'd seen a police car in Tammy's driveway the evening of the murder. Ten months after Tammy's murder, Patrick Bradford's trial began. So you didn't see this as a slam dunk going in? Not at all. Not at all. What's his motive here? I mean, his wife already knew he was having this affair. I really can't say. My best guess is something happened between the two of them, and he went into a rage. The prosecution portrayed you as having snapped. Yeah. Are you capable of that? I've never snapped like that. The prosecution said I snapped because there was no apparent motive. Even the woman he'd betrayed, Patrick's wife, Dawn, testified that her husband wasn't capable of violence. This is Patrick with our children. But she had to admit he knew how to lie. Still, I know he's innocent. Witnesses who dealt with Patrick that night described him as normal, calm, courteous. And two women he knew said they had seen him drive past a bar during the critical hour, far from Tammy's. But state expert Jesse Story told jurors that the fire was both intense and short. That meant Bradford called it in very soon after it was set. The fire evidence was probably the case. Prove the fire, prove the murder. On day 11, Bradford took the stand. We were very concerned. Deborah Nolan, then a speech teacher, helped him prepare because he was furious at everything that had happened. He felt very betrayed by the police department. Prosecutor Levko also was worried. I'd heard from a lot of our deputies that he was a very good witness. I had the opportunity to finally answer some of these charges, and I knew the evidence very well. But to the chagrin of his supporters, especially his lawyer, Terry Nofziger, Patrick was cocky and arrogant, a disaster on the stand. Patrick feels pretty upset about the fact that he was charged and you may have seen some of that seeping out today. It was just a little too much for him and he got kind of snotty in places. So how do you think you came off? Oh, I think I probably came off terribly. It may have cost him his freedom. The jury deliberated 18 hours before delivering its verdict. Guilty. It was pretty shocking. I think I was just on the verge of losing consciousness, just fainting. The more heinous the crime, the worse the autopsy pictures are, the less reasonable doubt a jury needs. For Tammy Lohr's family, there was great relief. I just had to see him get convicted of this because I knew he did it. But in the years since, Deborah Nolan says she has found new evidence and new experts. I believe that had I been allowed to testify at the original trial, that Patrick would not have been convicted. That's next. The murder case against Patrick Bradford took almost a year to piece together a painstaking and at times painful investigation for his fellow police officers in Evansville, Indiana. But by the end of a three week trial, even some of his staunchest defenders on the force had become firmly convinced Bradford was indeed guilty of murdering his girlfriend, Tammy Lohr. But now, nine years later, Patrick Bradford's family and friends, still believing he is innocent, are pressing ahead with their fight to set him free. They are convinced that police, feeling pressured, rushed to judgment. Okay, listen, a couple things for those of you that haven't done shotgun training. By the time he was convicted, Patrick Bradford had few friends left on the Evansville police force. Female employees are being threatened. I think they got the right man. Ryan Rison was one of the officers who'd responded to Bradford's calls for help that morning. He's not burned, he's not injured. I'd be breaking out windows. I'd be doing whatever I could to get to my loved one. At trial, risen Testified against his former colleague. I think it was a very difficult case in our department. To have to point the finger at one of your own is very difficult. I think that he felt like it. He was just smarter than us. Bunch of dumb cops here in Evansville. We wouldn't be able to figure it out. Detective Guy Minnis spent nearly a year on the case. You are as sure today as you were nine years ago that he did it? Yes, I am. In my eyes, Patrick Bradford does not deserve to live. We believe that the jury system made a terrible mistake in this case. Bradford's family, however, never deserted him. There are several very important leads that never were followed up. Launching its own investigation after the trial. They're family. They love me as much as any family ever loved anybody. We're getting new information every day. Tips are leading to solid evidence. But Joe Bradford says all the leads led to dead ends. Everybody who had a vendetta against the prosecutor or anybody else had something to say, and a lot of it was wasted time and energy. And the courts have seen no reason to overturn this highly circumstantial case. More than once, I have felt like David going up against Goliath. Deborah Nolan is the friend who was so outraged by Patrick Bradford's conviction that she left teaching for law school, hoping someday to help set him free. If he gets a new trial, the outcome will different because we will be able to present a slew of evidence that was not presented at the original trial. Now married and pregnant, Deborah is cramming for the bar. For years, she's been poring over the Bradford case. She cites problems with every key prosecution witness. Take George Russell, the man Patrick had arrested more than once. Patrick said that he had seen George Russell out during this critical time. Yes, during that time. George Russell says, I'm at a birthday party. I'm at my brother's house. Right. It wasn't me. Right. Deborah says she has new evidence. After the trial, we finally found this brother. And we have an affidavit by him signed saying, my brother never showed up that night at my birthday. Is he a credible witness to tell you how credible George Russell is? I don't know. I mean, that's one of the things about investigations. You don't get to pick your witnesses. You don't get to go out there and say, I want a nun and a priest. And the woman who claimed she had seen a police car parked here in Tammy Lohr's driveway, well, she was no angel either. In fact, she had a record. Convictions for theft and deception. And she came forward the very day that the local newspaper had reported the exact times that Patrick Bradford was free on the night in question. I'm not a bit surprised. Somebody called and said, I saw a police car in the driveway. To give the whole public that important bit of information that's inviting, that kind of thing, you never do that. As for physical evidence, even the police admit there wasn't much. No DNA, no murder weapon, no blood. This woman was stabbed 21 times. For anybody to be able to do that and walk away without a trace of it on him is very unlikely. Detectives say Patrick had time to change uniforms, but Deborah Nolan believes they were so focused on Patrick they missed the obvious. They had a much better suspect that they paid barely any attention to at all, namely finest Vincent Jr. Vincent, the man with a grudge against Tammy. He'd been seen lurking outside her house only months before the murder. But detectives ruled him out early on. They seemed to make up their mind about him that morning. After 10 minutes talking to him in his front yard in a very non confrontational manner on his property with his wife, the alibi standing right there. Did you ever take a formal statement from this guy? No, we didn't. Did you search his house or his car? No, no, we didn't search the house, we didn't search the car. There. He was just not a good suspect as far as we were concerned at that time. Fine. As Vincent. Yeah, this was a problem for you? This was a huge problem. Prosecutor Stan Lefkoe, Finus thought we were trying to pin the murder on him and we weren't. And at one point he was going to plead the Fifth, which would have been devastating to us. But Vincent did testify and swore he had nothing to do with Tammy's murder. Had he come across suspiciously or anything like that, it might have created a problem for us. But he was very credible. Vincent refused our request for an interview, but the police say he did pass a polygraph. Unlike Patrick Bradford, I think that he was very foolish to take that polygraph test. I just don't put any faith in them. If they were as good as policemen, try to make out they are, they'd be allowed in court and they're not. As a criminalist, I'm gonna go with the science rather than the eyewitness. But now she says she has new witnesses she would like to see in court. They are the top experts in their field. Quickly, quickly. Witnesses who might turn this case around. Go. The only way the state's case can be correct is if we Repeal the laws of physics. It's getting really hot in there. That's next. Etsy knows these aren't the sounds of holiday gifting. Oh. Or ah. Okay. Thank you. Well, they're not the sounds you're hoping for. You want squeals of delight like this. Ooh. And spontaneously written songs of joy. I am so happy. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. To get those, make everyone on your list feel heard with gifts like personalized jewelry, custom artwork, vintage pieces, and home decor. For original gifts that say I get you, etsy has it 48 hours. 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Deborah Nolan, looking for some way to prove Patrick Bradford's innocence, finds herself at the same fire investigator seminar as state expert Jessie Story. When you look at distribution of fuel, it was a little tense once I found out that she was there. I was a little upset at that. Initially, there's enough room in the average sized room to support a pretty substantial fire. They were shooting me. Looks like they wanted to kill me. But when they realized who I was. After all, Story's testimony helped put Bradford behind bars. I've never had a doubt about how, when or who set this fire. Are you going to be racing out of here? Determined to prove Story wrong, Deborah has persuaded John DeHaan, a highly regarded fire expert, to take a look at the case. The critical issue appears to be the duration of the fire. From what my research has shown me, the time factor to that fire by the original Investigators of 5 to 7 minutes is wrong. Remember, thanks to that bank security camera, police know when Patrick Bradford got to Tammy Laura's house. The fire there was out about nine minutes later. So if it could be shown that the fire lasted Longer than nine minutes. Clearly it was already burning when Patrick Bradford got there, which is exactly what he says. Based on the damage to the room and the damage to the body, I would have estimated a 15 to 20 minute duration fire. At this point, I'd have to say I do not think he's responsible for that fire. Jesse's story doesn't buy it, saying you can't investigate a fire from autopsy information and pictures. He can't measure the depth of char to a piece of wood from a photograph where present at the scene. We were able to do that. But what if there were evidence from a real fire? A fire identical to the one in Tammy's house, making about three or four feet from the corner on five feet. We want to show that the state's version of how the original fire happened is erroneous. It's just wrong. The four thermocouples in place? Yes. Patrick's family, along with Deborah, has persuaded veteran fire investigator Don Bellis to conduct a series of experiments. The state's case, in my opinion, would not stand scientific scrutiny. I just did some quick calculations. The defense had contacted Belus during Bradford's trial, but he says it was too late then to add him to the witness list. I'll do the hard part and nail that on the floor. I have a little bit of ability to build now. Patrick's brother Joe has enlisted his help by building him a house to burn. It's actually 27 inches on one side, 24 on the other. It's dimensionally identical to the house where the crime happened. You're going to pour the majority of the gasoline onto the bed. My brother is worth continuing to search. What you see is an opening into the room. That's a viewing port with cameras in place. Okay, are we ready? The fire is set. Quickly, quickly. Okay, we're out. Go. Bellis thinks he can establish how long the fire burned. Not so much from the damage. The smoke layer outside the bedroom is about the 4 or 5 foot elevation, but from the smoke, 1 minute 20 seconds. The smoke exiting the ventilators is modest in quantity, gray in color. At the trial, two runners testified that went out that morning. They saw smoke above the trees by Tammy's house. They observed a smoke cloud, let's say above the house at a certain time, a time when Bradford was at the scene, as the prosecution pointed out. We could figure out from where they were and how fast they were running, what time that was. But Bradford had been there less than two minutes at that point, too short a time. Belus thinks for a fire to produce enough smoke to rise above the trees. Belus crunched the numbers on computer. In order to have the smoke visible to the runners, the fire had to been started something like five minutes prior to that time. In order for the state's case to be correct, we would have to repeal the laws of physics. John DeHaan agrees. I can't move smoke out of a room into an attic, out of the attic and that high in the sky to reach those kind of heights in that kind of timeframe. 10 minutes, 50 seconds extinguishment being applied and the experiments seem to confirm it. The really important finding is that it took three or four minutes before substantial quantities of smoke were generated. But Belus concedes that exactly duplicating the fire is impossible. Wow. And that's the point, says Jesse Story. Even weather conditions would have an effect. If you got a calm day, then the smoke is obviously going to rise straight up quicker than you would with a 20 mile an hour wind that was pushing the smoke laterally. So many trials like this become the battle of the experts. The jury believed the state's experts. That's sort of how the system works, isn't it? Yes. Maybe it's arrogance, but I believe had I been permitted to testify at the time of trial that this man would not have been convicted. Would it have made a difference, do you think? If they had had a really good fire expert, it could have made a difference in the sense that it could have been a more difficult case for a jury and theoretically. Theoretically could have made a difference in the outcome. But it wouldn't have made a difference in the fact that Patrick Bradford is guilty of this murder and setting the fire. Next. It's been over nine years. Nine long hard years. Patrick Bradford's chances. Hey prime members, have you heard? You can listen to your favorite podcasts ad free. Good news with Amazon Music, you have access to the largest catalog of ad free top podcasts included with your prime membership. To start listening, download the Amazon Music app for free or go to Amazon.com ad freepodcast that's Amazon.com adfreepodcast to catch up on the latest episodes. 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Go to dimebeautyco.com and unlock, unlock your discount. That's dimebeautyco.com that's dimebeautyco.com Having passed the bar, Deborah Nolan is now a rookie lawyer. She's also a new mother. Can you put that leg down? Can you let me. Still she finds time for her friend Patrick Bradford. I will continue to help. I have no intention of giving up anytime in the future. Though Bradford has lost repeated appeals, Deborah hopes to find some new evidence that will be striking enough to win him a new trial. It's all a crapshoot. I can't. I wish, I wish so badly I could sit here and say, oh, yeah, he's got it, you know, I can't. To prosecutor Stan Lefkoe, this is a closed case. You really have to have something extraordinary. And I think it's pretty unlikely that they'll get that. But he admits it's taken an emotional toll. I was told that you actually broke down in court during your closing. That's a lie told by a pretty good source. Yeah, well, that, you know, that may be true. You're very emotional. I do. I get involved in the. Just thinking about it now. Yeah, I mean, you get emotional just thinking about it now. It's been nine years. I lived with this case for almost a year and, you know, I felt the burden of the mother and father. Tammy's parents, Victor and Cricket Lore say Bradford has done nothing to ease their pain. There's never been any kind of condolences from him to us. I think he's in the right place. That's where he belongs. Her daughter's killer has not paid. They don't even know the extent of the injustice that's going on here. Not against me, against Tammy. Who do you think did kill her? I haven't reached a conclusion. I wouldn't dream of doing exactly what the Evansville Police Department would have done in the same situation and rushed to judgment. Bradford says he's adjusted to prison life as well as an ex cop can. You're not treated differently? No, I'm not treated any differently. Of course there have been, you know, the odd occasional incident, but overall things have pretty well just smoothed out. Have you ever run into anybody that you helped put in prison? I've run into several people that I've arrested. It's awkward. It is a bit awkward. The case still haunts Detective Guy Minnis. Patrick Bradford was once his friend, though in the end Minnis worked hard to convict him. The victory always has been bittersweet. There was still a part of me that felt sorry for Patrick. That sounds terrible, but you know it's true. He's a police officer and you know, there's that feeling that police officers have for one another that you always have that feeling. Do you still feel that way? No, he's not a police officer anymore. If you like this podcast, you can listen ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a Quick survey@wondery.com Survey in the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand, lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little known British territory called Pitcairn, and it harbored a deep, dark scandal. There wouldn't be a girl on Pitcairn once they reach the age of 10. That would still averge. It just happens to all of them. I'm journalist Luke Jones, and for almost two years I've been investigating a shocking story that has left deep scars on generations of women and girls from Pitcairn. When there's nobody watching, nobody going to report it, people will get away with what they can get away with. In the Pitcairn Trials, I'll be uncovering a story of abuse and the fight for justice that has brought a unique, lonely Pacific island to the brink of extinction. Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wandering. Join Wondering in the Wondering app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Dracula, the ancient vampire who terrorizes Victorian London. Blood and garlic, bats and crucifixes. Even if you haven't read the book, you think you know the story. One of the incredible things about Dracula is that not only is it this wonderful snapshot of the 19th century, but it also has so much resonance today. The vampire doesn't cast a reflection in a mirror, so when we look in the mirror, the only thing we see is our own monstrous abilities. From the host and producer of American History Tellers and History Daily comes the new podcast the Real History of Dracula. We'll reveal how author Bram Stoker rated ancient folklore, exploited Victorian fears around sex, science and religion, and how even today, we remain enthralled to his strange creatures of the night. You can binge all episodes of the Real History of Dracula exclusively with Wondery. Join Wondery and the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.