A Mind for Murder

Summary

48 Hours: "A Mind for Murder"

CBS News, February 6, 2026

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Overview

This intense episode of "48 Hours" plunges into the gripping, tragic murder case of Carmen Ross, a brilliant woman, beloved daughter, and mother who was savagely killed in her Kansas home in 2003. Host and CBS correspondents meticulously reconstruct the investigation and trial that followed, centering on Carmen's ex-husband, English professor Tom Murray—an unlikely but ultimately convicted killer. Through rich interviews with family, detectives, and legal experts, the episode reveals the tangled emotions and circumstantial evidence behind the pursuit of justice for Carmen.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Carmen Ross: The Victim and Her Life

[04:30–07:03]

• Carmen described as "bubbly," "empathetic," "full of life," a "brilliant," "spiritual" mediator, loving daughter, and mother.
• Family & friends: Heartwarmingly remember Carmen's transformation through career changes: law to mediation to spiritual healing (consegrity).
• Marriage and struggles: Met Tom, her English professor at Ohio State; initial family hesitation gave way to admiration. The marriage eventually soured amid disagreements about children, leading to Carmen’s search for new meaning.

Notable quote:

"You don't meet many people in your life like my daughter. So caring about everybody and almost everything."
— Danny Ross, Carmen's father [04:30]

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2. Domestic Strains and Red Flags

[08:11–11:19]

• Children and fulfillment: Tom initially wanted kids, but later opposed; Carmen eventually had a daughter, Kiara, in 1998. Tom became distant, fueling Carmen’s loneliness and eventual affair.
• The affair: Carmen met social worker Larry Lima at a spiritual healing workshop. Friends describe Larry as reigniting Carmen’s happiness.
• Divorce and custody: Carmen’s decision to divorce Tom set off a contentious custody battle over their daughter, straining even the family dynamic.

Notable quote:

"She felt as if she was living a life that just didn't fit very well with how she felt about things and how she believed."
— Carmen's sister [09:10]

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3. The Murder and Crime Scene

[16:55–17:41]

• Events leading to the murder: After a mediation session on November 11, 2003, Carmen asserted her desire for primary custody, and was anxious yet relieved.
• Discovery: Carmen failed to respond to calls; her friend and family panicked and contacted police. The crime scene was horrific; Carmen was found beaten and stabbed, with blood everywhere.
• Police reaction: Detectives were stunned by the brutality, but crucial physical evidence (bloody clothing, murder weapon) was missing.

Notable quote:

"Blood on the floor, blood on the walls, blood on the ceiling... a great degree of brutality... It was almost too much... even for me."
— Detective [17:31]

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4. The Investigation: Suspicions and Interrogation

[17:57–20:44]

• Focus turns to Tom Murray: The estranged ex-husband—an English professor—quickly becomes the primary suspect based on motive, opportunity, and recent custody battles.
• Prolonged interrogation: Murray talks for nearly ten hours without a lawyer, is evasive but never confesses. He displays cuts and bruises on his hands, explained away as kitchen injuries.
• Lack of direct evidence: No DNA, murder weapon, or bloody clothes—investigators must build a case circumstantially.

Notable quote:

"If I were you, I'd be looking at me. I think you should. I'm sort of the original boy scout."
— Tom Murray [19:10]

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5. Building a Circumstantial Case

[21:45–22:20]

• Yearlong struggle: No additional physical evidence; police take a risk and eventually arrest Murray in October 2004.
• Family struggle: Carmen’s family, once fond of Murray, now see him as Carmen’s likely killer, struggling with grief and conflicting emotions.

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6. The Trial: Challenges and Turning Points

[22:26–29:07]

• Unusual Kansas law: Victims’ families can pay for a special prosecutor; the Rosses bring in Tom Bath to help Assistant DA Angela Wilson, who was trying her first murder case.
• Trial hardship: The case is entirely circumstantial; defense focuses on the "lack" of evidence—no DNA, no direct proof Murray was at the scene.
• Motive: Prosecution points to the escalating custody fight and Murray's anger, as well as jealousy about Carmen’s new relationship.
• Key evidence: Murray’s computers show searches for: "how to murder someone and not get caught," "how to hire an assassin," and "how to make a bomb"—all coinciding with the custody dispute.
• Defense counter: Claims Murray was researching for a possible CSI script, and dismisses the computer forensics as coincidental.

Notable quote:

"You’re hoping in part to hoist this guy on his own hard drive."
— Host/Narrator [35:11]
"I'm increasingly coming to feel like an animal that's being backed into a corner."
— Tom Murray, Email Read in Court [35:03]

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7. Prosecution and Defense Strategies

[36:43–38:17]

• Defense arguments:
  • Custody lawyer said Tom couldn't lose Kiara.
  • Emails, while angry, show Murray still trying to co-parent.
  • Defense expert claims mystery shoe print at the scene is not Murray’s.
• Prosecution rebuttal: Angela Wilson attacks the credibility of the defense expert, emphasizing his lack of certifications and driving home the circumstantial evidence and Murray's online searches.

Notable quote:

"You don't have any certifications in the area of blood stain pattern analysis, do you?"
— Angela Wilson (cross-examination) [38:04]

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8. The Verdict and Aftermath

[41:18–46:15]

• Jury deliberates for three days: On St. Patrick’s Day, 2005, Tom Murray is found guilty of murder in the first degree.
• Reactions: Relief and overwhelming emotion from Carmen’s family and prosecutor Angela Wilson, marking the end of a grueling process.
• Custody of Kiara: Carmen’s daughter remains with the Ross family in Indiana, surrounded by love.
• Murray's last words: Still maintains his innocence, shows no remorse, but acknowledges he’s glad Kiara is staying with Carmen’s family.
• Long-term impact: The Ross family, forever conflicted—loving the man they once welcomed, but unable to reconcile the loss. Carmen's fiancé, Larry, commits himself to helping domestic violence victims in her honor.

Memorable quotes:

"We the jury find the defendant, Thomas E. Murray, guilty of murder in the first degree."
— Courtroom [41:36]
"I'm convinced this is a domestic violence related homicide."
— Larry Lima [42:59]
"How am I supposed to explain that to my kids when I don't get it?... And his daughter?"
— Carmen’s sister [44:05]
"I have never raised my hand in anger against anyone… much less against the woman with whom I created a child."
— Tom Murray (at sentencing) [44:26]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Carmen's background, marriage & transformation: [04:30–11:19]
• Breakdown of marriage and custody battle: [11:19–16:55]
• Discovery of the murder and crime scene: [16:55–17:48]
• Initial investigation and Tom Murray's interrogation: [17:57–21:13]
• Trial preparation and prosecution challenges: [22:26–23:52]
• Computer evidence & motives: [33:31–35:13]
• Closing arguments & jury deliberation: [38:17–41:22]
• Verdict, sentencing, and aftermath: [41:22–46:15]

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• "She was extremely happy. And not only had I never seen her that happy, I've never seen anybody that happy."
  — Carmen’s friend [11:01]

• "There was quite a struggle. A heck of a fight had gone on in that room. There was blood everywhere..."
  — Detective [02:29]

• "If I had thought he had actually killed my daughter, I would have hurt him right then. Bad."
  — Danny Ross [21:29]

• "Thirteen times he slammed that knife into her neck."
  — Angela Wilson (closing argument) [38:35]

• "Now I can really mourn for Carmen."
  — Carmen's sister, after the verdict [42:18]

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Tone & Language

The episode is grave, intimate, and methodical—blending the careful legal reasoning of prosecutors, the emotional rawness of a family’s grief, and the persistent resolve of detectives. The narrative does not sensationalize; instead, it highlights the tragic complexity, the human cost, and the pain of balancing justice and loss in a case built on hard-to-reconcile evidence.

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Takeaway

"A Mind for Murder" is a poignant journey through a devastating crime, underscoring both the strengths and hard limits of circumstantial justice. It serves as a meditation on grief, fractured trust, and domestic violence, as well as the dogged pursuit of closure by both investigators and loved ones left behind.

Transcript

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[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

The ones you trust.

[Narrator/Host]

Find pros for all your home [e-mail].

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

For anyone who knows Carmen, there's just a magic to her. She was going through this transition, ending her marriage. There was just no question that we were meant to spend the rest of our lives together. Hadn't heard from her that day. Left a couple messages hey darling how.

[Detective Doug Woods]

You doing today and really concerned I am.

[Narrator/Host]

Left a couple of messages for you.

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

And please give me a call just.

[Narrator/Host]

To let me know you're okay.

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

Got panicky just I knew something just wasn't right and finally called the police.

[Detective or Police Officer]

There was quite a struggle. A heck of a fight had gone on in that room. Furniture was turned over, potted plants were knocked over. There was blood everywhere, ceiling, walls, carpet was blood stained everywhere. I think it was fairly clear to.

[Detective Doug Woods]

Us that a murder had occurred.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

I knew from the time I had children that the worst thing that would ever happen, that could ever happen to me would be to lose a child. And in this case she was just ripped out of our lives.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

Somebody had to have a motive for this to happen. I only know one person that had Anything to gain. Tom, My ex son in law, an English professor. But he couldn't do that. He doesn't have the guts.

[Detective or Police Officer]

I told Mr. Murray that his ex wife Carmen had died and that we needed to speak to him about that.

[Detective Doug Woods]

In me you have not just a likely suspect, but a convenient one.

[Narrator/Host]

Why didn't you just arrest him then and there?

[Detective or Police Officer]

We couldn't prove that he had done it.

[Detective Doug Woods]

If this scenario falls apart, you're very well back to square one. We didn't have a lot of physical evidence.

[Detective or Police Officer]

We never found any bloody clothing. We never found a murder weapon. We were going to have a tough road ahead of us.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

I began to think about all the things that I did wrong. I didn't spend enough time with her. I didn't call her often enough. The fact that someone took her life away, it was important to me that there would be some justice. This crime will be solved. I'll spend every damn penny. I've got.

[Narrator/Host]

A mind for murder.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

You don't meet many people in your life like my daughter. So caring about everybody and almost everything.

[Narrator/Host]

When they talk about Carmen, the oldest of their four daughters, that's Carm. Dani and Judy Ross are never at a loss for words.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

She's bubbly, she's fun to be around. She makes the room warm. She's the sunshine.

[Narrator/Host]

Judy even put together a list of words that come to her mind when she thinks of Carmen.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

Brilliant, Empathetic.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

Thoughtful.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

Spiritual. Patient.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

Political.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

Loving.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

Peaceful.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

Delightful. Satisf.

[Narrator/Host]

Silly.

Playful.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

Courageous. Full of life. Daughter of our youth.

[Narrator/Host]

And Carmen's 1985 wedding to her sweetheart, Tom Murray was one of the best days Danny and Judy ever had.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Both of them wrote their wedding vows. I stood there and cried through the whole thing.

[Narrator/Host]

Was your husband the only one crying that day?

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

No, there were some others.

[Narrator/Host]

That was a happy day.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

Absolutely.

[Narrator/Host]

Carmen met Tom at Ohio State University. But it wasn't a typical college romance. She was a junior, he was her English professor.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

I was hesitant because I didn't know why a professor would be interested in one of his students. And is he married? And how do you know?

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

Mm.

[Narrator/Host]

These are questions I've heard parents ask in the past.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[Narrator/Host]

Tom Murray was only 27, a first year professor. And once she met him, Judy was impressed.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

He was very easy to talk to, very proper, good manners, you know, everything.

[Narrator/Host]

Did you like him?

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

Absolutely.

[Narrator/Host]

Did you love him?

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

Absolutely.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

Absolutely.

[Narrator/Host]

Carmen's three little sisters, Samantha, Heather and April, who never had a brother.

[Detective Doug Woods]

Were.

[Narrator/Host]

Delighted to at last have a brother in law.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

It was family you know, we'd hang out. We'd have Thanksgiving and Christmas dinner and laugh and tell stories. Right after they got married, they came over every Sunday after church, and we had Sunday dinner together.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

He was attending church with us. He didn't drink excessively. He didn't smoke. He exercised.

[Detective Doug Woods]

This is something that the two of us created together.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

He was polite all the time around everyone.

[Detective Doug Woods]

Two out of three children were nestled, each snug in her bed. Heather had fallen asleep on the stairway again, and April had to be gagged, tied, and bodily carried up to her room.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

And I said, tom, you're too good to be true.

[Narrator/Host]

In 1988, after Carmen graduated from law school, the couple moved to Manhattan, Kansas, where Tom took a job teaching linguistics at Kansas State University. His colleague Lyman Baker, says Murray made an immediate impression.

[Detective Doug Woods]

A very gentle guy.

[Narrator/Host]

He had a very sharp mind, personable.

[Detective Doug Woods]

Reasonable, good listener, serious, did his work.

[Narrator/Host]

You know, I always got the impression.

[Detective Doug Woods]

From people that they really appreciated having.

[Narrator/Host]

A man like that to work with. And despite the fact that his specialty, linguistics, can be a little tedious, Tom Murray managed to make it almost exciting. He was a great teacher.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

There seemed to be something very gentle and at the same time, very endearing and caring.

[Narrator/Host]

Never came with any notes or anything.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

He would just come in, sit on.

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

The desk just like we are, and deliver his lesson.

[Narrator/Host]

And I thought that was pretty admirable.

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

Because he knew everything about the subject.

[Narrator/Host]

But while Tom Murray was on the academic fast track, Carmen was struggling to find her place in the world. She gave up law after just a few years and instead hoping to change people's lives in less confrontational ways. She became a mediator.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

She would always say she was a recovering attorney, and she wanted to help people, though. So she decided to mediate because she thought she could help them come to a solution without having to go through all that.

[Narrator/Host]

But Tom and Carmen were searching for a solution to their own problem. They could not decide whether to have a child.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

When they first got married, they were going to have children. Tom wanted a bunch. Then they were married for 13 years. And now Tom doesn't want any children, and she's now changed careers, and now she wants children.

[Narrator/Host]

In 1998, despite the disagreement, Carmen became pregnant. And that December, she gave birth to a daughter, Kiara.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

He was angry, I think, with Carmen being pregnant and never treated her the same after that. I think he punished her.

[Narrator/Host]

Carmen stopped working. She loved being a mother, but felt she was raising Kiara alone. And Tom's indifference to the baby led Carmen to question other parts of her life.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

She felt as if she was living a life that just didn't fit very well with how she felt about things and how she believed.

[Narrator/Host]

Angela Hayes, Carmen's best friend it sounds.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

Cliche, but she wanted so much to help people, and she felt as if she wasn't able to do that in the way that her life was playing out.

[Narrator/Host]

Carmen was about to make a momentous decision. When Kiara was still a toddler, Carmen changed careers again and became a healer.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

She was in an apprentice program where she was physically doing treatment of people in the local area. And a lot of people made fun of it because they didn't understand it, Perhaps even her husband.

[Narrator/Host]

Carmen was practicing consegrity, A spiritual approach to medicine that claims to teach the body to heal itself. In September 2002, she went to a consegrity conference in Wichita, and that's where she met Larry Lima.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

She came home and said, have you ever looked into somebody's eyes and just felt like, you know, you were soulmates? Just like that.

[Narrator/Host]

The conventional thinking is that's the way you're supposed to feel about your husband.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

True. And I think she did up until maybe that day.

[Narrator/Host]

How did she change when she met Larry Lima?

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

She was.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

Carmen again smiled and she had the sparkle back in her eyes. She was like almost too happy. It's like, why are you this happy?

[Narrator/Host]

Larry Lima was a social worker living in San Diego. Shortly after they met, the couple began an affair. Were you upset about the relationship that she was in?

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

It bothered me, it hurt me because she was acting in ways that a lot of people in the world act who don't have respect for their spouse and just are out living for their own self gratification.

[Narrator/Host]

But after years of living what Carmen considered an unfulfilled life, her friends thought change was good for her.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

She was extremely happy. And not only had I never seen her that happy, I've never seen anybody that happy. She felt that her life was unfolding as she'd always wanted her life to be.

[Narrator/Host]

And it wasn't long before Carmen decided she wanted to divorce Tom Murray.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

She tried to get him to go to counseling, she tried to make it work, and she eventually just said, it isn't going to work.

[Narrator/Host]

But the trouble was only just beginning Because Carmen had not only decided to leave Tom, she decided to take their daughter with her. How does a peace loving, mediator type person react to a nasty custody battle?

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

She described it to us that her mama bear claws are going to have to come out.

[Narrator/Host]

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[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

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[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

She's like the morning light and a very dark night.

[Narrator/Host]

Larry Lima still remembers the first time Carmen Ross caught his eye.

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

We met at a workshop in Wichita, Kansas, and she had this plate and I walked by and she, you know, just very kindly asked if I wanted a piece of watermelon and I grabbed a watermelon seed and ate it and walked away. She just kind of raised her eyebrows and said afterwards that she knew that.

[Narrator/Host]

That was the moment Larry lives in San Diego. And by the fall of 2002, Carmen was flying to see him as often as possible. She confided to Larry that her marriage to Tom Murray was ending.

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

Something had kind of died inside. She had worked very hard and been unhappy for a very, very long time in her marriage. In her marriage, yeah.

[Narrator/Host]

In June 2003, after Murray grudgingly agreed to divorce Carmen, she began making plans to move to California. But even though Tom mur want children at first, he now was not about to let go of their daughter Kiara.

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

We had hoped to work out, you know, some sort of an agreement that would be best for Kiara to go back and forth. It just clearly wasn't going to be feasible.

[Narrator/Host]

Did she want him in her life?

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

Absolutely.

[Narrator/Host]

In Chiara's life?

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

Absolutely. So did I. I know how important it is for a child to be with both parents as much as possible.

[Narrator/Host]

So Carmen left Manhattan and moved here to Lawrence, Kansas. About 90 minutes away from Tom, Larry Lima was now planning to move here and join her. Carmen and Tom were temporarily sharing custody of Kiara, but working with a mediator to negotiate a permanent settlement. Carmen was determined to work things out.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

She didn't want to hurt him. Even though she was leaving him, she still wanted to. She wanted to be friends with him.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

She really believed that in some point in time, they would become friends again.

[Narrator/Host]

But while Carmen was trying to bridge their differences, Tom was busy burning bridges.

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

Clearly, he was angry and certainly sent emails and phone calls that upset her.

[Narrator/Host]

Were you surprised that he was putting up such a fight on the custody issue?

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

That's all he has left.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

But also, he wanted to win. He's a winner.

[Narrator/Host]

But this time, Carmen was determined to win. On November 11, 2003, she arrived at the mediation session and put her foot down.

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

She told Tom that she wanted Gilra to live with her. And then I was moving there.

[Narrator/Host]

And how was she emotionally at that point?

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

I think that in the midst of feeling anxious and a bit afraid, that there was also a sense of relief.

[Narrator/Host]

Because she had done it.

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

She had done it. Yeah. But she was clearly saddened and afraid of how it was going to turn out.

[Narrator/Host]

By the next night, when Larry called from San Diego, Carmen was feeling better.

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

We spoke for hours Wednesday night, and I thought that she was in a fairly good place. I mean, that we were going to get through this.

[Narrator/Host]

As it turned out, that was the last conversation they ever had.

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

I didn't hear from her that next morning. I knew something was wrong.

[Narrator/Host]

On Friday afternoon, Larry Frantically called the Douglas County Sheriff's department. Detective Doug woods went to Carmen's house to investigate. And when he got there, it was almost too much even for him.

[Detective or Police Officer]

Blood on the floor, blood on the walls, blood on the ceiling. Furniture had been turned over. Potted plants and stuff were broken against the fireplace. There was a great degree of brutality, I think, that went on in this house.

[Narrator/Host]

And in the middle of the room, Carmen Ross lay dead, Beaten and stabbed to death at the age of 40.

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

I remember sensing that this is just not true.

[Narrator/Host]

Carmen's house was now a crime scene. One that promised a wealth of physical evidence. As crime scene investigators combed the house for clues, Detective woods drove to Manhattan to tell Tom Murray his ex wife was dead.

[Detective or Police Officer]

Mr. Murray came to the door, opened the door. I told Mr. Murray that his ex wife Carmen had died and that we needed to speak to him about that.

[Narrator/Host]

What did he say?

[Detective or Police Officer]

Mr. Murray asked me if we had to do it right now.

[Narrator/Host]

He said, do we have to do this now? And you said?

[Detective or Police Officer]

I said it would be best if we could do this right now.

[Narrator/Host]

So Murray agreed to go with woods to a nearby police station. Did you have to convince him to talk?

[Detective or Police Officer]

No, sir.

[Detective Doug Woods]

To the extent that I'm helping and you are solving the case, I'm tickled to death to participate.

[Detective or Police Officer]

He was free to go. But I'm not holding you here against your will. No, you're here of your own free will and you're agreeing to stay.

[Detective Doug Woods]

And you don't have to keep revealing that stuff. You haven't been mean to me and you're not holding me against my.

[Narrator/Host]

In fact, it turned out the professor couldn't stop talking.

[Detective Doug Woods]

Well, let me ask you this.

[Narrator/Host]

He sat with Detective woods and others from 8:30 that night until 6:00 clock the next morning without a lawyer. When this interrogation began, all you had said to Professor Murray is that his ex wife had died. Yes, sir. Did he want to know what had happened?

[Detective or Police Officer]

He never asked me how she died.

[Detective Doug Woods]

If I were you, I'd be looking at me. I think you should.

[Detective or Police Officer]

So in my mind. Then tell me what a great guy you are, why I shouldn't be pointing the finger at you a little bit right now.

[Detective Doug Woods]

You gotta know me. I'm sort of the original boy scout. I mean, I've always been the straightest arrow in the quiver.

[Detective or Police Officer]

He could explain away everything that we would bring at him. I think he thought he was smarter than we were.

[Detective Doug Woods]

I had bought a fresh pineapple and was cutting it apart and sliced into my. Sliced into my Hand there.

[Narrator/Host]

Murray's right hand had small cuts and both his wrists were bruised.

[Detective Doug Woods]

They all happened in the last two or three days.

[Narrator/Host]

And Murray vehemently denied killing Carmen.

[Detective Doug Woods]

I never wanted Carmen dead. I wanted her reasonable.

[Narrator/Host]

You have some kind of strategy in mind when you're talking to him?

[Detective or Police Officer]

Basically locking him into his story. Then we can start disproving some of the things he says. Mr. Murray, however, though, would change his story periodically.

[Detective Doug Woods]

You're gonna look at this with a raised eyebrow. I did go out and drive around with it, but I did not drive to Lawrence. I didn't tell you that before.

[Narrator/Host]

It was a cat and mouse game.

[Detective Doug Woods]

Will you be here sort of looking over my shoulder?

[Detective or Police Officer]

No, I'm gonna have to leave you alone.

[Narrator/Host]

That went on all night long.

[Detective Doug Woods]

No, there's no such thing.

[Narrator/Host]

Thing.

[Detective Doug Woods]

It's the perfect crime. You're gonna get caught. The bad guy always gets caught.

[Narrator/Host]

But if Murray was the bad guy, he wasn't getting caught tonight.

[Detective Doug Woods]

So at this point, you don't have compelling evidence. You're not gonna.

[Narrator/Host]

You're not gonna. Tom.

[Detective Doug Woods]

Get us to sit here and tell you about our case. Okay, I don't want you to tell me about the case, but I'm concluding that. Because if you had compelling evidence, wouldn't you just go ahead and arrest me?

[Narrator/Host]

At 6am Tom Murray went home.

[Detective or Police Officer]

I was upset with myself because I didn't push the right button or ask the right question or go in the right direction to get him to confess.

[Narrator/Host]

Murray talked so much, he was now their number one suspect. But police had nothing against him.

[Detective Doug Woods]

I really don't know why I got.

[Narrator/Host]

These except a lot of talk. They waited for evidence from the crime scene and finally found nothing.

[Detective or Police Officer]

We never found any bloody clothing. We never found a murder weapon. It just didn't exist.

[Narrator/Host]

Tom Murray continued to teach and to raise Kiara over the following months. Danny Ross feared the murder would never be solved, though he was growing suspicious of the son in law he once loved. How do you come to terms with that?

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

Don't have an answer for that. Because if I had thought he had actually killed my daughter, I would have hurt him right then. Bad.

[Narrator/Host]

Nearly one year after Carmen Ross was murdered in November 2003, we'd run the.

[Detective or Police Officer]

Gamut of this case. We weren't going to find any more evidence.

[Narrator/Host]

Police still had not arrested anyone. Then in October 2004, detectives Doug Woods, Pat Pollack and Lyle Hagenbush decided they would have to take a chance on a circumstantial case. They arrested their number one suspect, Professor Tom Murray.

[Detective or Police Officer]

I thought we had a good case.

[Narrator/Host]

Not great.

[Detective or Police Officer]

Not great because we didn't have a lot of physical evidence.

[Narrator/Host]

It was very hard for Carmen's sisters, Samantha, Heather and April to believe the charges.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

You don't want somebody that you loved, that you gave Christmas presents to, that you hugged and said you don't want them to. To be the person who could have done that.

[Narrator/Host]

Things were about to get tougher for the Rosses. Just three months before Murray's trial began, the district attorney in Lawrence was voted out of office, leaving this case in the hands of Angela Wilson, an assistant da. Trouble was, she'd never prosecuted a murder before.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

I've handled a number of rape cases and attempted murder case, but this is by far the most involved.

[Narrator/Host]

But Kansas has an unusual law that allows victims to pay for a special prosecutor to help the district attorney's office. So the Ross family hired Tom Bath, a noted defense attorney, to be part of the prosecution team. I'm assistant counsel, which means it's really up to them to decide what role, if any, I have in this case.

[Detective or Police Officer]

They've allowed me to be a full team member.

[Narrator/Host]

Murray has hired two of the state's best attorneys, Pedro Iraganagaray and Bob. I. I think our best card is the evidence or the lack thereof.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

Morning, Danny. How you doing?

[Narrator/Host]

In February 2005, the Rosses came to Lawrence determined to win two things. All rise. A guilty verdict.

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

This is the State of Kansas vs.

[Narrator/Host]

Thomas E. Murray and custody of Carmen and Tom's daughter Kiara, who'd been living with them since Tom's arrest.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

On November 13th of 2003, Thomas Murray, a precise, articulate college professor, bludgeoned his former wife to death in the living room of her home.

[Narrator/Host]

As Angela Wilson begins the biggest trial of her career, she's a little nervous.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

A few months before Carmen's death, she moved into her own apartment in Manhattan. That afternoon at 12:15. Excuse me. At 12:45. And it would be nearly 24 hours or over 24 hours before anybody would know she was dead.

[Narrator/Host]

Thank you, you, Honor. Defense attorney Bob Eye is eager to exploit the weaknesses of Angela Wilson's case. All they had was a hunch. And a hunch is all they have today. It's an emotional day for everyone.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

This is a photograph of Carmen when she was alive. She was the person.

[Narrator/Host]

Even for the normally stoic Tom Murray, after investigating for more than a year, the best piece of evidence against Murray is still the first piece. His ten hour videotaped interview with the police. I'm gonna go ahead and Step out. These folks from double Investigators ask Murray about the day of Carmen's murder.

[Detective or Police Officer]

Thursday morning, did you drive to Lawrence?

[Detective Doug Woods]

No, I drove home and I graded my midterms.

[Narrator/Host]

Murray was seen at 8:30am when he dropped his daughter off at the babysitters and again around noon when he got her back. No one saw him in between. And detectives believe that's when he drove 90 miles to Lawrence to kill Carmen.

[Detective Doug Woods]

In my mind, I can't get there and back inside of the time I have available.

[Narrator/Host]

But Detective Lyle Hagenbush says Murray could. Hagenbush knows because he didn't.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

We were able to show that Tom.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

Murray could drive from Manhattan to Lawrence.

[Narrator/Host]

And have plenty of time to kill Carmen Ross and return to Manhattan. Detectives don't think it would have taken long for Murray to kill Carmen. They think he beat her first, then stabbed Carmen with a knife he got from her kitchen.

[Detective Doug Woods]

I didn't do it. I mean, I'll sit here and say this until I'm blue in the face. You can choose to believe me or not. All I can do is tell you the truth.

[Narrator/Host]

There are times when Murray appears genuinely upset, Chiara, and times when he's not.

[Detective Doug Woods]

You are a very skilled interviewer, Pat. You've been trained very well. You too, Doug. I mean, you're good at what you guys do.

[Narrator/Host]

You knew during the time when the defense finally gets a chance to speak. Pedro Iraganagaray says even though it lasted almost 10 hours, Tom Murray's statement proves nothing. Have you found one bit of conclusive proof that Mr. Murray was at Carmen Ross House on 13th November?

[Detective Doug Woods]

I'm not aware of any.

[Narrator/Host]

In fact, the state's own forensic experts, who prosecutors hope will link Murray to the crime, actually helped the defense team make its case. There were 54 or 55 samples tested from Ms. Ross home. And in none of those, Mr. Murray's DNA was found, correct?

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

Correct.

[Narrator/Host]

There's no DNA and there's only one fingerprint matching Tom Murray. The only fingerprint that was found of Thomas Murray's was on a brown dropper bottle. Yes. And no prints of his were found anywhere else.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

That is correct.

[Narrator/Host]

It is true, is it not? Then the defense says the evidence suggests there was more than one print person at the crime scene. Police found what looked like two bloody shoe prints. Neither of those two shoe prints matched anything to your knowledge belonging to Mr. Murray? That's correct. No further questions. Faced with a lack of forensic evidence, the prosecution argues Murray is the only person with a motive to kill Carmen. They believe he exploded after a mediation session just two days before the murder.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

It was apparent to her that they.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

Were going to have to go into a custody battle.

[Narrator/Host]

And prosecutors say Tom Murray had another motive, the oldest one in the book, jealousy. Because Carmen's fiance, Larry Lima, was about to move to Lawrence.

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

Were you in love with her passion?

[Narrator/Host]

When were you planning to move to Horns?

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

First part of December.

[Narrator/Host]

Are you familiar with that exhibit? I am. Can you point for the jury the.

[Detective or Police Officer]

Location where you would have gone into the house?

[Narrator/Host]

As the state methodically works through four weeks of testimony.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

He seemed disheveled.

[Narrator/Host]

He seemed tired. The trial is long.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

Were you able to determine the number of stab wounds here in this neck area?

[Narrator/Host]

That would be 13. And at times difficult. This is a tear of the tissue that's been caused by crush of the tissue between a hard object and the bone underneath.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

It's a numb feeling because as I sit there and I saw all the pictures, it makes me think thoughts that I don't think a human being should have to think.

[Narrator/Host]

Prosecutors say Murray carefully planned Carmen's murder and cleaned up afterwards. And they're about to present some startling evidence explaining how an English professor could possibly know so much about murder. These are the computers that were taken from Mr. Murray. The search term was how to murder someone and not get caught. Well, the holidays have come and gone once again, but if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift. Well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday.

[Detective or Police Officer]

Offer of half off unlimited wireless.

[Narrator/Host]

So here's the idea.

[Detective or Police Officer]

You get it now, you call it.

[Narrator/Host]

An early present for next year. What do you have to lose?

[Detective or Police Officer]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch limited time.

[Narrator/Host]

50% off regular price for new customers. Upfront payment required. $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy. See terms. What's up, guys? I'm Candace Dillard Bassett, and you may know me from my time on the Real Housewives of Potomac or as a part of the latest cast of the Traders.

And I'm Michael Arsenault, author of the New York Times bestseller I Can't Date Jesus.

On our podcast undomesticated, we don't just say the quiet parts out loud. We're putting it all on the kitchen table and inviting you into the chaos.

If you're ready for bold takes, real talk and a little fun, come join.

Us, Listen to and follow undomesticated and Odyssey podcast available wherever you get your podcasts. Kids, they grow up so fast. One day they're taking their first steps, and the next they don't fit into the tiny sneakers they took them in. You blink your eyes and their princess dress is two sizes too small. And their dinosaur backpack isn't cool anymore. But don't cry because they're growing up. Smile because you can profit off of it for real. There are a bunch of parents on depop looking for the stuff your kid just grew out of. Download depop to start selling.

After weeks of testimony, Professor Thomas Murray's attorneys say things are going their way. The physical evidence that they've presented, it has, by and large shown exactly what we thought it would. And that is that Tom Murray was not at the scene of this crime. That's just what Danny Ross is worried about.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

If, in fact the worst case happens and he is acquitted, then the jury is going to put him back with my granddaughter.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

Yes.

[Narrator/Host]

Three generations of Rosses from five different states have moved to Lawrence, Kansas, for the duration of the trial.

Detectives were unable to find any evidence.

But the routine is becoming a grind.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

It's really hard to sit there patiently and let them do their job. And it concerns me, is he going to get the justice that he really deserves?

[Narrator/Host]

There's good reason for the Rosses to be nervous.

[Detective Doug Woods]

And I said, carmen, that is a lie.

[Narrator/Host]

The prosecutors started out strongly playing Tom Murray's revealing police interview. All rise. But now Assistant DA Angela Wilson is having a tough time trying her first murder.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

What was the quantity of blood involved in that case?

[Narrator/Host]

Objection, you, Honor.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

That's not relevant on a case of this magnitude. It has been overwhelming at times, questions about websites.

[Narrator/Host]

But things are starting to look up for the prosecution and the Rosses. The jury is about to hear the most powerful forensic evidence yet. And it's got nothing to do with blood or DNA.

[Detective Doug Woods]

Have you ever gotten on the Internet and looked up any websites that have to do with crime scenes or polygraphs? Oh, I got onto the CSI website occasionally have fantasies about trying to make it as a freelance writer.

[Narrator/Host]

Investigators could not have imagined what they'd discover when they confiscated Murray's computers. It turns out the professor was not just researching linguistics, although there is a word for the kind of searches he was doing online. Suspicious, maybe even damning. Robert Dean Brown. Dean Brown is a forensic computer expert. He dug around in the recesses of Murray's computers. 11:25am the search for on Yahoo quotes.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

Murder for hire just a few seconds later. Is there another search then?

[Narrator/Host]

Yes, ma'.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

Am.

[Narrator/Host]

There's a search for how to hire an assassin.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

Did you find anything? Shortly, more than an hour later.

[Narrator/Host]

And there was a search for how to make a bomb. It's beginning to sound like a prosecutor's dream. It shows the ahoo search for how to murder someone and not get caught. Investigators were thrilled with the secrets Murray's computers revealed, especially when they learned the searches were conducted just as the custody battle Tom and Carmen were having was getting nasty. When you have somebody searching numerous times for this kind of topic and then somebody winds up dead, it's kind of a clue. You're hoping in part to hoist this guy on his own hard drive.

Sure.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

Yes.

[Narrator/Host]

Can you do it? The evidence is there, but the defense has an explanation. The next page shows a site visit on 10th November is something called twisttv.com scriptscsi. Mr. Murray was interested in the possibility of writing an episode for a CSI type program. Is your best explanation of these Internet searches? That they're just an unfortunate coincidence? What would you like for us to do? Invent something. I mean, a trial lawyer works with what he or she has to work with. The computers offer up more bad news for Professor Murray. Emails that show his anger with Carmen was growing and even more pissed at her for beginning an intimate relationship with another man. And even more pissed at her for continuing that relationship through all the months that she and I were supposed to be be making an effort at working things out. But I can't just sit back and have my daughter taken away from me. I'm increasingly coming to feel like an animal that's being backed into a corner. The state is resting. The prosecution rests. Tom Murray's defense will make three main points. First, a custody attorney told Murray he had no reason to fear that Carmen would take Kiara away.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

If one parent wants to leave the state of Kansas, fine.

[Detective Doug Woods]

But they don't take the child with him.

[Narrator/Host]

Next, the defense argues even though Murray expressed his anger in emails, he was still committed to working with Carmen. And that's according to the mediator herself, Nancy Hughes.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

They worked well together.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

It was pretty clear that they were trying to support each other in doing.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

In taking care of their daughter.

[Narrator/Host]

And finally, the defense argues not only is there no evidence Professor Murray was even at the crime scene, there's a mystery blood stain on Carmen's sink suggesting someone else was at Carmen's house. Defense expert Robert Tressel, would you please describe for the jury what that stain represents to you? What you would call a pattern blood stain transfer. You have an opinion as to what could have caused that particular stain on that pedestal sink. My impression is this is a tennis shoe print. If it is a shoe print, the defense says it's not Murray's.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

Can we get copies of your notes, please?

[Narrator/Host]

But Angela Wilson has hit her stride and hits back, attacking the expert's expertise.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

You don't have any certifications in the area of blood stain analysis, do you?

[Narrator/Host]

Certifications?

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

I'm sorry, sir, but that's a question that just requires a yes or no answer. So if you could please answer my question, the one that I'm asking. You don't have any certifications in the area of blood stain pattern analysis, do you?

[Narrator/Host]

No, I do not.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

I felt I could see Angela just get a little more confident as the trial went along. I think she did a superb job.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

Look at the knife, look at the edge.

[Narrator/Host]

And she saved a little drama for her closing argument.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

This is a person who was bent on murder. Thirteen times he slammed that knife into her neck.

[Narrator/Host]

Ladies and gentlemen, Tom Murray never takes the stand. The defense pins its hopes on reasonable doubt, and they argue there is plenty of it. Carl, let's go back to the crime scene. There's none of his blood there. None of his fingerprints, none of his footprints. No one sees his car there. No one nor any scientific test can put Tom Murray on that house on the 13th. For the Ross family, this is now one of the hardest parts of the trial, Waiting for the jury to decide.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

I recognize that the jury could find him innocent. And if he is found innocent, then my heart will be broken again because we'll have to give our granddaughter time. I'm past being hurt. I'm just very angry at what this man did to my daughter.

[Narrator/Host]

It's been nearly a year and a half since Danny Ross's daughter Carmen was murdered.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

He has now taken her away from us. So I never get a chance to hug her ever again.

[Narrator/Host]

There's no doubt in the Ross's minds about who killed Carmen. But the fate of the accused, her ex husband, Tom Murray, now rests with the jury.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

It's putting the case in the hands of 12 people that don't know everything that we know. They get to make the decision, and that's very tough. I have looked over at him still sitting there, and I watch him. I'm like, I loved you.

[Narrator/Host]

There's no wiggle room for the jurors. They either have to convict Murray of first degree murder or set him free. Everything is on the table as we speak. Right over there. Murray's attorneys repeatedly argued that. But Murray's life is not the only one at stake.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

Ross and Murray shared custody.

[Narrator/Host]

If he's acquitted, the Rosses would have to give him Kiara, the daughter he had with Carmen. It's the worst case scenario the Rosses hope they'll never face.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

My daughter was killed and we can't bring her back. But having my granddaughter raised in a proper environment is what my daughter would have wanted. And that's the most important thing to our family.

[Narrator/Host]

All rise.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you're about to give in this.

[Narrator/Host]

It took five weeks to present all the evidence, and the jury is taking its time going through it all.

[Danny Ross (Carmen's father)]

I believe he's guilty and I believe he's going to be found guilty.

[Narrator/Host]

After three days of deliberations, there's a verdict. It is St. John Patrick's Day, and the professor appears relaxed, reading a book on the Polish language, even as he waits for the jury to come back. All rise.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

State of Kansas versus Thomas E. Murray. Verdict. We the jury find the defendant, Thomas E. Murray, guilty of murder in the first degree.

[Narrator/Host]

Murray is one of the few people in the courtroom who contains himself. Carmen's family is overwhelmed and you've gotten the outcome that you wanted. What does justice feel like?

Thank God.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

For so long, it has been all about this process coming to an end today, this imagining this day and that we have to Kiara. She's safe.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

Now I can really mourn for Carmen.

[Narrator/Host]

It is also an emotional victory for the prosecutors, especially Angela Wilson, who began this trial as a rookie against seasoned defense attorneys and won big. I think this is the first time I've ever seen a prosecutor cry at.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

A verdict when it was a good one.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Angela Wilson (Assistant District Attorney)]

There was just so much emotion around this case and around the family. And it has been very good to be included in the family fold. I think I joked early on that I was an honorary Ross girl.

[Narrator/Host]

Carmen's family and her fiance have the verdict they want, and they know it's now time to move on.

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

I'm convinced that this is a domestic violence related homicide.

[Narrator/Host]

Larry remembers Carmen by volunteering with domestic violence victims at the Family justice center in San Diego.

[Friend or Close Acquaintance of Carmen]

Every victim that comes in here, it's like, okay, Carmen, you know, how do we go about making this person's life a little less traumatic?

[Narrator/Host]

It will be a little harder for the Rosses, who once considered Murray a son and a brother. This guy was part of your life.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

Absolutely. And it is a very.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

It's a very confusing, conflicting feeling because.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

I have no doubt that it were his hands that hurt her. But I don't know what happened to his head. To come to realize that someone that you love took away someone that you love. How am I supposed to explain that to my kids when I don't get it? And his daughter?

[Narrator/Host]

There'll be no explanations from Tom Murray, who remained defiant at his sentencing.

[Detective Doug Woods]

I remain nonplussed that the jury believed the prosecution's fairy tale of my involvement in Carmen Ross's death.

[Narrator/Host]

He insisted he was innocent and refused to apologize.

[Detective Doug Woods]

I have never raised my hand in anger against anyone.

[Narrator/Host]

Not ever.

[Detective Doug Woods]

Much less against the woman with whom I created a child.

[Narrator/Host]

And in a rare display of emotion, dear Chiara, he saved his last words for his daughter.

[Detective Doug Woods]

Since I can't be with you, I'm very glad you're able to live with people who love you so much.

[Narrator/Host]

Yara, who is now nine, lives with the Rosses at home in Indiana.

[Legal or Court Expert / Possibly another family member or close acquaintance]

I asked her, I said, are you worried about who's gonna take care of you? And she looked at me like this and she said, no, I'm glad I have my family to take care of me. She's got an entire family that adores her and would do anything for her. And we'll take care of her together. We will take care of her.

[Narrator/Host]

Tom Murray was sentenced to life in prison. Larry Lima passed away in 2011. At Pluto TV, we're celebrating Black history month with award winning films like Dreamgirls and Selma. We must make a massive demonstration and full seasons of hit shows like power.

[Detective Doug Woods]

I got you Brilliant.

[Narrator/Host]

Black entertainment is on Pluto TV stream now pay never.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

Paramount celebrates black voices with stories of excellence in dreaming. Whilst black and Watson mysteries are what we do.

[Narrator/Host]

Of love in lawman Bass Reeves.

My heart hurt when we apart and.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

Of community and the neighborhood and the shy.

[Narrator/Host]

Well, if you need anything at all, I got you.

[Family Member (possibly Carmen's sister or close relative)]

We family explore series, movies and more in the black voices collection on Paramount plus stream now.