A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

Summary

Podcast Summary: "48 Hours" - A Preacher's Secret, Part 1

Episode Overview: In the gripping first part of "A Preacher's Secret," CBS News' "48 Hours" delves into the mysterious death of Carrie Baker, the wife of Baptist preacher Matt Baker. Initially ruled as a suicide, suspicions surrounding Matt Baker's involvement escalate as inconsistencies emerge in the investigation. The episode meticulously unpacks the family's quest for truth, uncovering hidden facets of Matt's life and challenging the official narrative.

---

1. The Baker Family: Foundations and Tragedy

Carrie Baker, a beloved third-grade teacher, married Matt Baker after meeting as counselors at a Baptist day camp in Waco in 1994. Their marriage swiftly progressed, and within a year, Carrie was pregnant with their first daughter, Kenzie, followed by Cassidy and Grace.

Notable Quote:

Matt Baker: "I think she was a very loving, caring person. Family was first for her." (00:31)

However, tragedy struck when Carrie’s second daughter, Cassidy, was diagnosed with a brain tumor shortly after her first birthday. After a grueling battle, Cassidy succumbed to her illness in March 1999, devastating Carrie and altering the family dynamic irreversibly.

2. Carrie's Declining Health and Changing Personality

Post-Cassidy's death, Carrie struggled profoundly with grief. Matt describes her increasing withdrawal and dependence on sleeping pills to cope with sleepless nights:

Notable Quote:

Matt Baker: "After Cassidy passed away, she couldn't go to sleep. She could not go to sleep." (01:39)

Despite seeking help through grief counseling, Carrie’s demeanor began to shift. Matt took on the role of primary caregiver, managing household duties and supporting their youngest daughters, Kenzie and Grace.

3. The Night of the Tragedy: Matt's Account

On the night of March 22, 1999, Matt returned home late, suspecting something was amiss. He found Carrie unresponsive in bed, leading him to call 911 immediately. The police arrived swiftly, finding an empty bottle of Unisom and a typed suicide note.

Notable Quote:

Matt Baker: "She was my best friend." (03:08)

The police concluded it was a suicide, and Carrie was buried two days later. Matt, at that point, had no suspicions about foul play.

4. Rising Suspicion: The Family's Doubts

Carrie's parents, Jim and Linda Doolin, found the suicide ruling incongruent with their perception of Carrie’s character. Linda recounts moments of disbelief and internal conflict, unable to reconcile the idea of Matt murdering his wife.

Notable Quote:

Linda Doolin: "He killed her." (14:36)

The family began to notice inconsistencies in Matt’s account, such as his behavior before and after Carrie’s death, and his suspiciously extensive communication with Vanessa Bowles, a young woman from Matt’s church.

5. Investigative Pursuit: Uncovering Truths

Determined to seek justice, the Doolins formed a group dubbed "Charlie's Angels" to investigate Carrie’s death. They discovered that Matt had engaged in nearly 1,700 minutes of phone calls with Vanessa Bowles shortly after Carrie’s demise, raising questions about his motives and actions.

Notable Quote:

Linda Doolin: "He counted on her keeping her mouth shut. That was his life, full of dirty little secrets." (20:00)

Hiring attorney Bill Johnston and Texas Ranger Matt Cawthon, the family pushed for a deeper examination of the evidence, leading to the exhumation of Carrie’s body three months post-burial.

6. Reopening the Case: New Evidence Emerges

The autopsy revealed traces of Ambien in Carrie’s muscle tissue, a drug Matt had been researching prior to her death. Additionally, photos from the night showed signs of possible suffocation, contradicting the initial suicide narrative.

Notable Quote:

Matt Cawthon: "He was preying on other women and then finally found one who was in the way." (25:12)

These findings prompted the police to reclassify Carrie’s death from suicide to undetermined, leading to Matt's arrest on murder charges on September 21, 2007.

7. Legal Battle and Continued Doubts

Despite the arrest, Matt Baker was released on bond as the district attorney required a grand jury indictment to proceed to trial. The lack of concrete evidence, such as the absence of an autopsy initially and the questionable handling of digital evidence, complicated the case.

Notable Quote:

Linda Doolin: "We wanted to clear Carrie’s name. Matt was going around talking about what a depressed, suicidal person she was. We knew she wasn’t." (12:26)

Attorney James Gray worked diligently to highlight the inconsistencies and questionable elements surrounding Matt’s actions and the investigation’s integrity.

8. Civil Court Pursuit and Ongoing Struggle

With criminal charges eventually dropped due to insufficient evidence, the Doolins shifted their focus to civil proceedings, suing Matt for wrongful death. They argue that the available evidence, including the discrepancies in Matt’s statements and his suspicious behavior, strongly indicate his involvement in Carrie’s death.

Notable Quote:

Linda Doolin: "We are going to seek justice. And I believe with every fiber in my being that we will have it." (44:19)

The family's resolve remains unshaken, as they continue to fight for answers and accountability, believing that the truth about Matt Baker will eventually come to light.

9. Conclusion: A Quest for Justice Continues

"A Preacher's Secret, Part 1" sets the stage for an intense investigation into Matt Baker's life and the circumstances surrounding Carrie Baker's death. As the Doolins persist in their pursuit, the episode leaves listeners eager for the unfolding of this complex and emotionally charged case in the subsequent installment.

---

Key Takeaways:

• Family Doubts: The sudden death of Carrie Baker, initially ruled as suicide, raised significant doubts within her family, particularly concerning Matt Baker's involvement.
• Investigative Efforts: The Doolins' relentless pursuit uncovered suspicious evidence, including Matt's extensive communication with Vanessa Bowles and the presence of Ambien in Carrie’s system.
• Legal Challenges: Despite arresting Matt Baker, the lack of decisive evidence led to the dismissal of criminal charges, propelling the family to seek justice through civil litigation.
• Continued Battle: The case highlights the complexities of the criminal justice system and the challenges faced by families seeking closure and truth against established narratives.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Matt Baker: "I think she was a very loving, caring person. Family was first for her." (00:31)
• Linda Doolin: "He killed her." (14:36)
• Linda Doolin: "We are going to seek justice. And I believe with every fiber in my being that we will have it." (44:19)

---

Stay Tuned: For a comprehensive understanding and the continuation of this compelling investigation, listeners are encouraged to follow "48 Hours" for the upcoming part two of "A Preacher's Secret."

Transcript

[Matt Baker]

If you have health insurance, you might.

[Erin Moriarty]

Be able to see a personal dietitian for $0 out of pocket. Nourish connects you with a dietitian that fits your needs covered by your insurance. Nourish accepts hundreds of insurance plans and 94% of patients pay $0 out of pocket. Meet with your dietitian online and message them anytime through the Nourish app. With hundreds of five star reviews from real patients, you know you're in good hands. Find your [e-mail] that's usenourish.com I've never.

[Linda Doolin]

Felt like this before. It's like you just get me. I feel like my true self with you. Does that sound crazy? And it doesn't hurt that you're gorgeous. Okay, that's it. I'm taking you home with me. I mean, you can't find shoes this good just anywhere. Find a shoe for every you from brands you love like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas and more at your DSW store or dsw dot com. Carrie loved Matt from the very beginning and he seemed to adore her. There were times when it was very difficult being the wife of a pastor, but Carrie was very good at it. I'm Carrie's mother. I'm Linda Doolin. More than anything, Carrie loved her girls, loved them.

[Matt Baker]

I think she was a very loving, caring person. Family was first for her. But I also know now Cassidy consumed her. The loss of Cassidy consumed her thoughts. After Cassidy passed away, she couldn't go to sleep. She could not go to sleep. And so she started taking sleeping pills. But I never saw it as suicidal. I saw it more as she's hurting. She's missing her daughter. It was right at 12 o'clock by the time I made it home. I had that eerie feeling when I walked in the room that something's not right here. I don't think my wife is okay. And I go to her side and I touch her and she doesn't move. She doesn't respond. And I call out her name and there's no response. And I immediately pick up the phone and call 911.

[Linda Doolin]

Do you have an emergency?

[Erin Moriarty]

My wife is laying in the bed.

[Linda Doolin]

And her lips are blue.

[Matt Baker]

There was no pulse. There was nothing. I'm on the phone.

[Linda Doolin]

Is she conscious? No, she's not. No, no, no, no. She's not breathing at all.

[Matt Baker]

I was gone maybe 40 minutes. And during that time, I don't know what happened to her. The police officer brings me the note. I read the first line and I handed it back because I said, I can't read it right now. My first thought at that time was, her parents need to be here.

[Linda Doolin]

Matt tells us that Carrie committed suicide. I'm thinking, how can that be? I talked to her and she was just in a really good mood.

[Matt Baker]

I never thought in a million years that my wife would do this. I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her. She was my best friend.

[Linda Doolin]

I found it unbelievable, but I accepted it. I mean, what was the alternative?

[Matt Baker]

My name is Matt Baker, and I have been accused of murdering my.

[Erin Moriarty]

I'm Erin Moriarty, the preacher's wife.

[Matt Baker]

I know if she was sitting here, she would look at you and say, he didn't do anything. Leave him alone. But she can't.

[Erin Moriarty]

Ever since Matt Baker's wife died suddenly at the age of 31, the Baptist preacher has lived under a cloud of suspicion. Is he an innocent man, unfairly accused, as his followers and friends believe?

[Linda Doolin]

Daddy, what are we having for supper?

[Erin Moriarty]

Or is he hiding a terrible dark secret?

[Matt Baker]

In your name we pray. Amen. It's so improbable. It's not who I am. I loved my wife. I never hurt her a day in my life.

[Erin Moriarty]

Carrie was a popular third grade teacher. She and Matt had been together since meeting as counselors at a Baptist day camp in Waco in 1994.

[Matt Baker]

I would have been 23 and she was 20. I met her and I thought, this is the person for me.

[Linda Doolin]

That was her senior picture in high school.

[Erin Moriarty]

I mean, she's beautiful.

[Linda Doolin]

Yeah. Yeah, she is.

[Erin Moriarty]

Linda and Jim Doolin remember their daughter was instantly smitten with the Baylor University senior.

[Linda Doolin]

The thing she kept talking about was, mom, this guy's a really good Christian.

[Erin Moriarty]

Just three months after meeting, Matt and Carrie suddenly announced they were getting married. Did you like him?

[Linda Doolin]

My daughter loved him, and I saw him through her eyes.

[Erin Moriarty]

By their first anniversary, Carrie was pregnant with daughter Kenzie.

[Linda Doolin]

She was so excited. She really was a terrific mom.

[Erin Moriarty]

A second daughter, Cassidy, followed a year and a half later.

[Linda Doolin]

She loved her girls, you know, you know how you feel. There are no words.

[Erin Moriarty]

But right after Cassidy's first birthday, doctors discovered a brain tumor and she was hospitalized.

[Matt Baker]

There'd be days that it looked really good, prognosis was good, and then turned around and went right back downhill.

[Erin Moriarty]

How did Carrie deal with that?

[Linda Doolin]

Oh, my gosh. She was just there with her baby. Just did not leave her.

[Erin Moriarty]

In late February 1999, after a 90 day bedside vigil, Cassidy was well enough to go home.

[Matt Baker]

I always assumed that she would pull through this and fight through this.

[Erin Moriarty]

But just after midnight on March 22, Cassidy was rushed to the emergency room. This time, doctors couldn't save her.

[Matt Baker]

To sit there and struggle that far to come, what I thought was so far, to watch her die, you know, that was devastating. It really was a very hard, hard.

[Erin Moriarty]

Thing to cope with, especially for Carrie. How hard did she take that death?

[Linda Doolin]

Oh, incredibly hard. She lost her child and she grieved hard.

[Erin Moriarty]

A grief counselor helped Carrie get through the first year. And in 2000, a third daughter, Grace, was born. But Matt says his wife was never the same.

[Matt Baker]

I don't think it was a split second. All of a sudden she was completely different. It gradual changing of the person. She had almost two personalities in a way, not negative. But when she went to work, she had the ability to put issues behind her and focus on work.

[Erin Moriarty]

And the other personality, the other personality.

[Matt Baker]

Was a little bit more withdrawn.

[Erin Moriarty]

At home, the way Matt tells it, he became Mr. Mom to Kenzie and Grace.

[Matt Baker]

So I typically gave them their bath, washed their hair, get them dressed, put them to bed, sing them their songs and read them their books.

[Erin Moriarty]

And from the time Cassidy died, Matt says Kerri relied on pills to sleep. What kind of sleeping pills? What would she take? Unisom, an over the counter sleep medication. But Matt says sometimes she borrowed something stronger from family and friends.

[Matt Baker]

I'm not even sure what the names would be, other sleeping pills, just to help her sleep, help her get a good night's sleep.

[Erin Moriarty]

And the toughest time for Carrie was always the March anniversary of Cassidy's death.

[Matt Baker]

It was always two or three weeks leading up to it. It's coming, it's coming. I can't do this. I can't make it another year. I can't do this again.

[Erin Moriarty]

In April 2006, seven years after Cassidy died, Matt says Carrie was still struggling with the loss. So we took her to the doctor who diagnosed her as depressed and prescribed an antidepressant.

[Matt Baker]

And about that time, my wife started almost hyperventilating again in the office. Didn't like him saying anything about depression. She would never agree that that could be a problem.

[Erin Moriarty]

As they left the clinic and headed onto the highway, Matt says Kerry had a meltdown.

[Matt Baker]

And I'm at about 45, 50 miles an hour and she is hyperventilating. And she attempts to open the car door as we're driving down the road.

[Erin Moriarty]

Why?

[Matt Baker]

She said she needed to get out, get some air, to get some air, to get some air.

[Erin Moriarty]

He says he grabbed hold of her waistband until he could pull off the highway. Did you feel that those actions indicated that she was trying to kill herself?

[Matt Baker]

I didn't think suicide. I thought she just wanted fresh air and wasn't thinking. She lost it for a second.

[Erin Moriarty]

Later that week, on Friday, April 7, Carrie had a crucial interview for a new job at the junior high. What was her mood like?

[Matt Baker]

Her mood that day was nervous.

[Erin Moriarty]

And after the interview, Matt says Kerry didn't feel well.

[Matt Baker]

She wasn't laying over like this. It was just tired. I'm tired. I mean, just kind of exhausted.

[Erin Moriarty]

That evening, despite a queasy stomach, Matt says Carrie drank a wine cooler.

[Matt Baker]

She went to bed and off and on, dozing, off and on, watching tv. I'm in bed with her, taking care.

[Erin Moriarty]

Of the kids at 10:30 with the kids in bed. Matt says Carrie asked him to gas up the car and rent a movie.

[Matt Baker]

And I thought, it's late, all right, but I'll do it, you know, if your wife asks you do what your wife asks. And so I got dressed and left the house a little after 11 o'clock. Oh, it's probably about two miles to the first gas station that I could fill up at and got out, pumped the gas, went up to the movie place, rented the movie and drove back home.

[Erin Moriarty]

When he returned around midnight, Matt says he found the bedroom door was locked.

[Matt Baker]

And so I go in and get the little screwdriver that can fit in there and I pop the button, open the door. She was naked in bed and I call her name and she doesn't respond.

[Erin Moriarty]

At 12:01am he called for help.

[Matt Baker]

And as I'm calling 911, I'm deciding I don't want them to see her naked. So I put her clothes on her.

[Erin Moriarty]

Matt says at the same time he was on the phone, he was also moving Carrie to the floor, where he began cpr. She's not breathing. What are you thinking has happened to her?

[Matt Baker]

I wasn't processing at any point in time what had happened to her.

[Erin Moriarty]

Paramedics arrived within minutes, but it was too late. Carrie was dead. Police found an empty bottle of unisom next to a note. I'm so sorry. It read, I love you, Matt. I want to give Cassidy a hug. I need to feel her again. It was all the evidence the small town police needed.

[Matt Baker]

The detective that night pulled me into the kitchen. He goes, well, she took her own life. There's a note, there's pills, there's no signs of struggle. It's pretty obvious what happened. And at that point, my heart sunk. I couldn't believe It. That was the first time for sure. That's what they claimed it to be.

[Linda Doolin]

We were truly in shock. It was almost like we were in a trance. And all I kept thinking about, all Jim kept thinking about was that we didn't have a daughter. Our daughter was gone.

[Erin Moriarty]

The county doesn't have a medical examiner, so police just describe the case over the phone to a justice of the peace who determined that Carrie Baker died from an overdose of unisom, no autopsy needed. Two days later, she was buried. And that might have been the end of this story if not for a group of tenacious women.

[Linda Doolin]

We wanted to clear Carrie's name. Matt was going around talking about what a depressed, suicidal person she was. We knew she wasn't. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money. With guardrails in place, Try Greenlight risk free [e-mail] Spotify Sixteen years from today.

[Erin Moriarty]

Greg Gerstner will finally land the perfect cannonball. Epic splash, unsuspecting friends. A work of art only possible because Greg is already meeting all these same people at AARP volunteer and community events that keep him active and involved and help make sure his happiness lives as long as he does. That's why the younger you are, the more you need AARP. Learn more at aarp.org local.

[Linda Doolin]

She was just a very alive person all the time. And those girls, she had them going.

[Erin Moriarty]

You really miss her, don't you, Jim? As out of character as suicide seemed, Carrie Baker's parents, Jim and Linda Doolin, say they had no choice but to believe it.

[Linda Doolin]

We kept trying to convince ourselves what other alternative was there? The idea that Matt could have taken her life was more horrible.

[Erin Moriarty]

But that's exactly what Linda's family thinks.

[Linda Doolin]

He killed her.

[Erin Moriarty]

Linda's sisters Nancy, Kay and Jennifer and niece Lindsay.

[Linda Doolin]

I immediately thought Matt did it.

[Erin Moriarty]

You believe that?

[Linda Doolin]

Oh, yeah, with all my heart. Carrie loved her life. She loved her family. She would never have left those girls.

[Erin Moriarty]

From the start, they tried to convince Linda that Carrie's death needed to be investigated.

[Linda Doolin]

She said, drop it. And we all just said, okay, okay. And then we all walked out together to the cars and we said, that's not happening. He could always say, she called? No. But no.

[Erin Moriarty]

Linda's younger sister Nancy says Matt's story about Carrie's last day simply didn't match anyone else's.

[Linda Doolin]

He had said that day Carrie was sick.

[Erin Moriarty]

You don't believe that.

[Linda Doolin]

No. People that saw her said she wasn't.

[Erin Moriarty]

And would a sick tired Carrie ask Matt to put gas in the car and rent a movie? That makes sense? No.

[Linda Doolin]

At 11 o'clock.

[Erin Moriarty]

And they certainly don't believe that if Carrie did commit suicide that she would ever be found in the nude. Nothing seemed to make sense, not even the choice of the sleeping aid unisom.

[Linda Doolin]

She actually took a generic brand. She called it a sleepy time. She said her sleepy time pill.

[Erin Moriarty]

They also say that Carrie's unhappiness in the last weeks of her life wasn't about Cassidy. According to her former grief counselor, Carrie was worried about herself.

[Linda Doolin]

And she said, I saw Carrie in therapy. She was afraid that her husband was having an affair and afraid that he was trying to kill her.

[Erin Moriarty]

That was just three days before Carrie died. And there's more. Linda's sisters began sharing secrets they had kept from her all these years.

[Linda Doolin]

I didn't realize that no one in the family had liked him.

[Erin Moriarty]

They began to tell Linda about Matt's odd and even boorish behavior.

[Linda Doolin]

He had come up behind my daughter and made some just really inappropriate sexual comment to her.

[Erin Moriarty]

There were several unsettling incidents. Like in 1996 when Carrie lived with with Matt in this complex. Deann Avalo says the preacher tried to pick up her 16 year old daughter.

[Linda Doolin]

He asked her, have you ever been kissed by a boy? She said yes. And he just suddenly grabbed her and kissed her right on the lips.

[Erin Moriarty]

At one church youth center, Matt was warned about his behavior with young women. He never seemed to stay long at any job.

[Linda Doolin]

Every time he'd move from a job, I would think he did something to someone.

[Erin Moriarty]

And there was this woman. Laura Wilson Met Matt in 1991, top first one when they were both student athletic trainers at Baylor University. One day, she says they were cleaning an empty locker room when he suddenly grabbed her.

[Linda Doolin]

He lifts me up off the floor and he sits on one of the benches with me on his lap. And that's when he begins running his hand up my thigh and between my legs.

[Erin Moriarty]

Matt denies ever touching Laura. Instead, he says he inadvertently scared her that day by turning out the lights. Did you ever assault or harass any of these women?

[Matt Baker]

I did not.

[Erin Moriarty]

None?

[Matt Baker]

None.

[Erin Moriarty]

So if these women say you did, they are lying?

[Matt Baker]

Correct.

[Linda Doolin]

I wanted Matt to be okay. I wanted him to be a good man. But it didn't add up. Nothing adds up.

[Erin Moriarty]

Linda finally began to see Matt through her sister's eyes. But persuading the local police to reopen the investigation into Kerry's death was going to be far more difficult.

[Linda Doolin]

They didn't do their job, and they didn't take us serious. And I don't think we were asking them to believe that Carrie was murdered. We just wanted an investigation.

[Erin Moriarty]

The police had concluded that Carrie committed suicide. Only a few photographs were taken at the scene. The only evidence collected was the Unison bottle, the remaining pills, and the typed suicide note. Why do you think the police were so willing to accept this as a suicide immediately?

[Linda Doolin]

He's a pastor. He's a preacher.

[Erin Moriarty]

So what did you all do?

[Linda Doolin]

We began an investigation.

[Matt Baker]

All of you?

[Linda Doolin]

Yeah.

[Erin Moriarty]

Calling themselves Charlie's Angels.

[Linda Doolin]

Linda was Charlie, and we were the angels.

[Erin Moriarty]

They began making fun.

[Linda Doolin]

Did you talk to Kay or Jennifer?

[Erin Moriarty]

Following every lead and retracing Matt's movements the night Carrie died.

[Linda Doolin]

We weren't going to give up. Somebody was going to listen to us.

[Erin Moriarty]

Their biggest discovery came unexpectedly when Linda took a look at Matt and Kerry's cell phone records.

[Linda Doolin]

And before I opened it up, I just said a little prayer and I just said, okay, God, help me out here. I said, give me a sign. And I opened up the phone bill and oh, my gosh.

[Erin Moriarty]

The record showed 10 days after Carrie died, someone began using her cell phone. And who was using it?

[Linda Doolin]

Vanessa Bowles. Matt had given it to Vanessa.

[Erin Moriarty]

Vanessa Bowles, a young woman who attended Matt's church. Weren't you talking a lot to this young woman?

[Matt Baker]

We often did. We did. We did often talk.

[Erin Moriarty]

And weren't you interested in her?

[Matt Baker]

I never thought of a relationship with her at all. That never was anything in the back of my mind.

[Erin Moriarty]

But phone records show almost 1700 minutes of calls between Matt and Vanessa in just 10 days.

[Linda Doolin]

Jim had highlighted on there, and it looked like he got on the phone as soon as he took the girls to school and stayed on the phone with her most of the day. It was crazy.

[Matt Baker]

I needed a friend. I needed somebody to look me in the face and say, I'm sorry you lost your wife.

[Erin Moriarty]

But the records show Matt began calling Vanessa before Carrie died. Did you have an affair with Vanessa?

[Matt Baker]

Oh, no, I did not. There was never any relationship at all other than a friendship.

[Erin Moriarty]

Vanessa told the police they did begin dating, but only after Carrie's death.

[Linda Doolin]

This is a man who has a very, very dark, evil side. He was preying on other women and Then finally he found one who it looked like something might go somewhere with. And I believe Carrie was in the way.

[Erin Moriarty]

Armed with a possible mother, Linda hired Bill Johnston, a dogged former federal prosecutor, and his team of investigators.

[Linda Doolin]

All of a sudden, all the shock I'd been feeling, all this numbness, it was just like it just washed right off of me. And I thought, ok, Linda, we're going to find out what's going on here. And after that, we went into battle mode.

[Erin Moriarty]

Three months after Carrie Baker was laid to rest, her parents had her body removed from the grave and autopsied. What made you decide to exhume your daughter's body? That had to be a tough decision, wasn't it?

[Linda Doolin]

Oh, yes, because we needed that information.

[Erin Moriarty]

Linda Doolin was determined to find out how her daughter died. Although the authorities ruled it a suicide, she suspected that Matt Baker was responsible.

[Linda Doolin]

He's indicated he'll talk to anyone, and it'd be nice if he'd talk to us, too. Sure.

[Erin Moriarty]

Attorney Bill Johnston and his investigators found much of the evidence troubling.

[Linda Doolin]

We'd never heard of a type suicide note. At least it needed a signature. And on the table next to the note were pins. Rather convenient, you know, if someone wanted to sign it.

[Erin Moriarty]

They found more disturbing evidence in the computer network that serves the entire youth center where Matt worked as a chaplain. One month before Carrie died, he began conducting online searches for. For overdose on sleeping pills and on the prescription drug Ambien. Even though Carrie didn't have a prescription for that drug. Matt's explanation.

[Matt Baker]

It scared me that she was taking that much sleeping medicine to get to sleep at night. It took a lot to wake her up in the morning sometimes.

[Erin Moriarty]

But if you were concerned, wouldn't you mention it to her doctor?

[Matt Baker]

At that point, I didn't think it was necessary to tell the doctor because I thought she was getting it under control.

[Erin Moriarty]

When investigators asked to examine Matt's actual computer that was on his desk, they discovered it wasn't his. Sometime in mid June, when the search for evidence got underway, someone had replaced Matt's desktop computer with his secretaries, and Matt's had vanished. And why would anyone want to take that computer?

[Matt Baker]

I have no clue. I don't know why.

[Erin Moriarty]

Was there something on that computer you didn't want anyone to see?

[Matt Baker]

Oh, no, there's. I mean, absolutely not.

[Erin Moriarty]

Investigators also have no idea whether there was anything incriminating on Matt's home computer. Matt says the hard drive crashed and is no longer working. It's just a coincidence that the hard drive on your Home computer is fried and the computer from work disappeared. Just a coincidence.

[Matt Baker]

Computers crash all the time.

[Erin Moriarty]

The more Bill Johnston heard, the more he was convinced that Linda Doolin's doubts about her son in law might be right.

[Linda Doolin]

There's more to this guy than just some guy that's preaching on Sunday. There's a dark side here.

[Erin Moriarty]

Do you believe Matt Baker is a dangerous man?

[Linda Doolin]

Oh, sure. You bet he's dangerous.

[Erin Moriarty]

Johnston believes that because when Carrie told her grief counselor that she thought Matt was trying to kill her, Carrie confided that she found a mistake. Mysterious bottle of crushed pills in Matt's briefcase.

[Linda Doolin]

He gave her a story. Oh, that's from the kids at the center. The kids don't take their meds and they spit them out. That must be what that is.

[Erin Moriarty]

Matt told 48 Hours a very different story. He said there were pills, but they were carries and had never been in his briefcase.

[Matt Baker]

She comes out with a bottle of pills and she looks at me and she says, I found these in there.

[Erin Moriarty]

Was that bottle of crushed pills in your briefcase?

[Matt Baker]

I don't know where she found it. I never had it. I never saw it before. She had it in her hands and.

[Erin Moriarty]

The pills are now gone. You know what Matt says? Matt says she threw out the crushed pills, that Matt offered to have them tested, and she put them down the sink.

[Linda Doolin]

There you go. The only person that could refute it was is not here.

[Erin Moriarty]

I take it you don't believe it.

[Linda Doolin]

Not for a second, no.

[Erin Moriarty]

As Johnston's suspicions mounted, he convinced his friend, Texas Ranger Matt Cawthon, to look at the case. Cawthon, too, suspected foul play and became frustrated by the faulty police investigation. What kind of evidence should have been taken in that night?

[Linda Doolin]

There was a computer printer there. There were bottles of alcohol there.

[Matt Baker]

And of course, an autopsy would have been a tremendous assistance to the investigation, but it wasn't ordered.

[Erin Moriarty]

How much pressure did you have to put on the Hewitt Police Department to take a new look at this case?

[Linda Doolin]

It was considerable pressure.

[Erin Moriarty]

In September 2006, the results of Carrie's autopsy, done three months after her body was embalmed and buried, finally came in. And still no proof of how Carrie died. No remnants of pills were found in Carrie's stomach, but there was evidence of Ambien in her muscle tissue. The same sleeping drug Matt researched on the Internet. Bill Johnston points to the photos taken the night Carrie died, which showed discoloration around Carrie's nose and lips, an indication, he says, she may have been suffocated.

[Linda Doolin]

There was a slight abrasion to her nose consistent with a rough pillow or some object that maybe has fibers that scrape across. The court is of the opinion there.

[Erin Moriarty]

Are enough questions that 18 months after Carrie Baker died, the justice of the peace declared her death was no longer classified as suicide.

[Linda Doolin]

Carrie Lynn Baker's manner and cause of death shall be recorded as undetermined.

[Erin Moriarty]

The police now had a possible homicide on their hands. On September 21, 2007, the former pastor was arrested and charged with murder.

[Matt Baker]

I guess the foolishness in my part was, if you never do anything wrong, you won't get arrested.

[Erin Moriarty]

Matt posted bond and returned home to his daughters.

[Matt Baker]

And I'm just waiting for the day that I can grieve with my children, the loss of my wife and their mother.

[Erin Moriarty]

He says he is the victim of insidious innuendo and wild speculation. Have you been able to get work?

[Matt Baker]

Not after the arrest. Not after the arrest.

[Erin Moriarty]

And Matt has found a powerful ally.

[Linda Doolin]

I think Matt Baker is being railroaded.

[Erin Moriarty]

Like Bill Johnston, guy James Gray was once a high profile prosecutor.

[Linda Doolin]

The more that I know about Matt, the less I believe that he is the type to take somebody's life.

[Erin Moriarty]

Gray says Kerry's despair is spelled out in her own heartbreaking entries she wrote in her Bible after her daughter died.

[Linda Doolin]

This paragraph is about how good heaven is. And then she writes out beside it, I want to go with Cassidy.

[Erin Moriarty]

Gray also says he can explain some of the seemingly incriminating circumstances. What about the abrasion on the nose and possibly on her lip?

[Linda Doolin]

Well, the first thing the emergency people did when they got there was put one of these artificial CPR deals over her mouth.

[Erin Moriarty]

But Bill Johnson says that the abrasion had to have been left there before Kerry died and that Matt is the one who caused it. According to Johnston, the most damaging evidence comes from Matt Baker himself. People did say she was very upset with you. Why was she so upset with you?

[Linda Doolin]

Imagine if you could ask someone anything you wanted about their finances. How much do you make? Who paid for that fancy dinner? What did your house actually cost? On every episode of what We Spend, a different guest opens up their wallets, opens up their lives, really, and tells us all about their finances. For one week, they tell us everything they spend their money on. My son slammed like $6 worth of blueberries in five minutes. This is a podcast about all the ways money comes into our lives and then leaves again, which, of course, we all have a lot of feelings about.

[Erin Moriarty]

I really want these things.

[Linda Doolin]

I want to own a house.

[Erin Moriarty]

I want to have a child.

[Linda Doolin]

But this morning I really wanted a coffee because whatever you are buying or not buying or saving or spending, at the end of the day, money is always about more than your balance. I'm Courtney Harrell and this is what We Spend, listen to and follow what We Spend and Odyssey Original podcast, available now wherever you get your podcasts.

[Matt Baker]

It had to be somebody's fault and I have to be the fall guy for it.

[Erin Moriarty]

Facing murder charges in Waco, Matt Baker retreated to his childhood home in Kerrville, Texas, where his old friends were outraged at the accusations. I thought that he was the least.

[Linda Doolin]

Likely to be charged with murder. Matt is a sweet, loving, caring, tender hearted person. It just is inconsistent with his character.

[Erin Moriarty]

That's also how Jill Hotz, Carrie Baker's close friend, once felt about Matt.

[Linda Doolin]

He was a good friend. I mean, he taught my son to tie his shoes.

[Erin Moriarty]

But today, she no longer believes in Matt, nor the story he tells about Carrie.

[Linda Doolin]

I know she didn't take her own life. Someone with that kind of a zest for life, that kind of fight for life, she's not going to take her own life, and she didn't do that.

[Erin Moriarty]

Why does Jill suspect Matt? Because of a conversation she had with Carrie just days before her death.

[Linda Doolin]

She was very, very upset.

[Erin Moriarty]

And when you say upset, crying, crying.

[Linda Doolin]

Extremely hard on the phone. And I said, carrie, what's wrong? And she said, I think Matt is seeing someone else. And you know how you have those moments in your life that you wish that you could just redo the whole thing. And I tried to reassure her that Matt loved her and he wouldn't do that.

[Erin Moriarty]

And Kerry told Jill that her preacher husband did something far worse. He blamed her for their child's death.

[Linda Doolin]

She said that Matt accused her of praying for Cassidy not to have to suffer anymore. And he said that God answered Carrie's prayer instead of his prayer, which was for Cassidy to live to be an old lady and to have a full life.

[Erin Moriarty]

Carrie said that Matt blamed her for Cassidy's death?

[Linda Doolin]

Yes.

[Erin Moriarty]

And how did she take that?

[Linda Doolin]

Extremely hard.

[Matt Baker]

No, I never blamed her for the death. She misunderstood what I had said. I said that it hurt me that she felt her prayer was answered and mine wasn't.

[Erin Moriarty]

Judge for yourself. Matt sent Carrie this email just days before she spoke with Jill. I know deep down I hold a grudge against God and you for him answering your prayer and not mine. He wrote, in some ways, I do hold you to blame for her death.

[Linda Doolin]

She said that that was the worst thing that she's ever heard. And she didn't think that they could ever recover from that.

[Erin Moriarty]

The day after Carrie confided in Jill was when Carrie told her counselor she thought Matt was trying to kill her. The counselor confronted Matt at Carrie's funeral. What was your reaction?

[Matt Baker]

And I said, what?

[Linda Doolin]

Well, wait, wait.

[Matt Baker]

And I'm like, what's going on here? That was just kind of just completely rattled, everything that was going on at that time.

[Erin Moriarty]

Matt denies he had any reason to kill Carrie. He denies cheating on her. And remember earlier, he had insisted that the woman he spent so much time with, Vanessa Bowles, was only a friend.

[Matt Baker]

I never thought of a relationship with her at all. That never was anything in the back of my mind.

[Erin Moriarty]

You asked her parents whether you could date her.

[Matt Baker]

Yes. Later in the summer.

[Erin Moriarty]

So you were interested in Vanessa Wilkes?

[Matt Baker]

Yes.

[Erin Moriarty]

You did want to date Vanessa Wolfs?

[Matt Baker]

Yes. During the summer? Absolutely, I did.

[Erin Moriarty]

According to Matt, Carrie's severe anxiety was apparent to everyone who saw her in those days leading up to her death. But we couldn't find anyone to confirm that. On the contrary, even her close friend Jill says that when she last spoke to Carrie, Carrie seemed happier and said things had improved with Matt.

[Linda Doolin]

The day before she died, she was completely elated. And she said that, you know, we're trying to get everything patched back together. She was very hopeful, very future oriented.

[Erin Moriarty]

Those who saw Carrie on her last day say her spirits were much higher than earlier in the week. Her friend Todd Munsey says she looked forward to the prospect of a new job.

[Matt Baker]

She told me she had a great interview, was so excited about it, and, yeah, we had a good high five right there in the hallway.

[Erin Moriarty]

But that very night, Carrie died. And her parents. Attorney Bill Johnston says there are serious inconsistencies in Matt's story.

[Linda Doolin]

Unfortunately for Matt Baker, he didn't buy enough time for himself. He should have painted a couple hours of alibi.

[Erin Moriarty]

Matt is very specific about what time he left Cary to put gas in the car and get movies.

[Matt Baker]

I remember when I was getting dressed and ready to leave, the clock said 11:11.

[Erin Moriarty]

Yet he seems unclear about Carrie's state when he left.

[Matt Baker]

We talked about everything that I was supposed to get, and I left.

[Erin Moriarty]

She was awake.

[Matt Baker]

She was awake.

[Erin Moriarty]

She was awake when you.

[Matt Baker]

Correct.

[Erin Moriarty]

When you left.

[Matt Baker]

We had a conversation. I leaned down and kissed her on the forehead before I left.

[Erin Moriarty]

But listen to what he said to us two months later. And she was talking. She said goodbye to you.

[Matt Baker]

She had rolled back over and gone back to sleep. So when I left, she was asleep.

[Erin Moriarty]

And remember how Matt says he first found out that Carrie killed herself.

[Matt Baker]

The police officer brings me the note, and that was the first thought at that point in time. She took her own life.

[Erin Moriarty]

Yet he had clearly read the note when he called the 911 operator.

[Matt Baker]

I think my wife just committed suicide.

[Erin Moriarty]

Her lips are blue, hands are cold, and there's a note that says, I'm sorry. Basically, you read the note you had said to the operator. She says, I'm sorry, but I did.

[Matt Baker]

Not read the full note. I saw the note, but as I picked up the phone, I saw it there, but I did not take the time to read the note.

[Erin Moriarty]

The police told Matt the cause of death was obvious.

[Matt Baker]

There's a note, there's pills.

[Erin Moriarty]

It was all too obvious, says attorney Bill Johnston.

[Linda Doolin]

Here's some wine coolers to match the story. They were drinking a wine cooler. And the note then is, I just have to say, self serving. Matt, I'm sorry. Oh, Matt, take care of the kids, you know. Not critical of him in any way.

[Erin Moriarty]

Johnston also points out signs of lividity on Carrie's body. The pooling of blood that happens after death. An indication, he says, that Cary had been dead far longer than the 40 or so minutes that Mack claims he was away.

[Linda Doolin]

She had to ingest something that made her sleepy, then unconscious, then killed her, and she had to quit breathing. Heart had to stop, and then the levity had to begin.

[Erin Moriarty]

And he is not the only one who questions Matt's story. What parts of Matt Baker's story bother you?

[Linda Doolin]

Just the time frame.

[Erin Moriarty]

That's really what bothers me the most. Stephen Karsh, a toxicologist 48 Hours consultant, says that if Carrie were alive when Matt said he left the house, her body would not be cold to the touch, as both Matt and a paramedic reported.

[Linda Doolin]

Being cold in an hour is nonexistent.

[Erin Moriarty]

Unless you're killed in the Arctic or in an icebox. But Karsh cautions there simply isn't enough evidence to say how and why Carrie died. Do you believe that this is a suicide?

[Linda Doolin]

No, but I cannot determine the cause of death and wouldn't certify it as anything but undetermined.

[Erin Moriarty]

Matt, did you kill your wife? Did you have anything to do with her death that night?

[Matt Baker]

No, I did not. Was I the perfect person? Did I do everything correct? No. But I didn't hurt my wife. I loved my wife. I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her.

[Erin Moriarty]

Matt had been arrested and charged with murder, but the DA had not yet brought the case to a grand jury. That's a requirement under Texas law for a murder case to go to trial. How easy is it to actually take someone to trial for murder when even the coroner can't determine that a murder occurred?

[Linda Doolin]

Extremely difficult.

[Erin Moriarty]

Matt's attorney, guy James Gray, was determined to get the charges dropped, and he had plenty of support from Matt's friends.

[Linda Doolin]

I think it should be thrown out. I just don't feel that having the spirit of God in you that you can do something like this. I just don't think you could do it. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. It's tax season and we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's one you need to hear. $16.5 billion. That's how much the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud last year. Now here's a good number. 100 million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed. Save up to 40% your first [e-mail]. podcast terms apply. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying Big Wireless way too much.

[Erin Moriarty]

Please, for the love of everything good.

[Linda Doolin]

In this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail].

[Matt Baker]

I have the people that support me. I have my family. I have my daughters.

[Erin Moriarty]

As the second anniversary of Carrie's death approached, Matt Baker and his daughters were still living with his parents in Kerrville.

[Matt Baker]

Oh, there goes Mama Cat.

[Erin Moriarty]

His relationship with Vanessa Bulls was over. His life in limbo.

[Matt Baker]

Wait, no, no, no, no. Open it all the way.

[Erin Moriarty]

Do you think you'll be indicted?

[Matt Baker]

I. I don't know. Wait for dad to help you. I don't know where I go from here.

[Erin Moriarty]

He was falling apart.

[Matt Baker]

That's why there's teeth marks in it. There is such an unknown of what tomorrow holds.

[Erin Moriarty]

While murder charges against Matt are pending in Texas, in order to go to trial, the DA also has to get a grand jury indictment within 180 days. Are you worried that there just isn't enough evidence to actually take him to trial?

[Linda Doolin]

No. No, we're not.

[Erin Moriarty]

Time runs out. On March 25, 2008, all criminal charges are dropped against Matt Baker.

[Linda Doolin]

Was it a murder? Was it A suicide. That was the major question in the case.

[Erin Moriarty]

Assistant DA Crawford Long.

[Linda Doolin]

We felt we didn't have the evidence to go forward with a criminal indictment at that time. They went through these facts just like I did, and they're simply not sufficient facts to establish a murder.

[Matt Baker]

It is a tremendous relief. The criminal part is in the past, and that's a tremendous blessing. Justice was not served.

[Erin Moriarty]

Texas Ranger Matt Cawthon is disappointed, but not surprised.

[Linda Doolin]

It is frustrating, but the evidence was there.

[Matt Baker]

Every turn, we were turned away.

[Erin Moriarty]

This is a man you believed killed his wife, and he's walking free.

[Linda Doolin]

Well, you know, Aaron, it happens every day.

[Matt Baker]

And in this case, something went awry.

[Linda Doolin]

This is Bill.

[Erin Moriarty]

But Bill Johnston knows there's no statute of limitations on murder. So he's not giving up.

[Linda Doolin]

Because sooner or later, I think that the criminal justice system will deal with Matt Baker. I just believe it's going to happen.

[Erin Moriarty]

The battle is far from over. Linda and her team are pursuing Matt in civil court, suing him for wrongful death.

[Linda Doolin]

They allow different evidence and civil cases, and that one's more of a problem for him Now. I'm going to meet with Bill A.

[Erin Moriarty]

Especially with Carrie's mother and her angels on the case.

[Linda Doolin]

We are going to continue to do what we have been doing, and that is we are going to seek justice. And I believe with every fiber in my being that we will have it.

[Erin Moriarty]

But in the year that follows, tremendous changes take place for Linda. There's a physical transformation and an emotional one as Carrie's case takes a dramatic turn. What changed things?

[Linda Doolin]

The thing that changed things was Vanessa Bull's testimony. You solemnly swear the testimony you've given this matter to be the truth. Matt Baker will never get away with. He will pay. Grand jury indicted Baker. They are indicting Matt Baker for murder. I remember just falling to my knees. I was overwhelmed.

[Erin Moriarty]

How important is Vanessa Bowles?

[Matt Baker]

She's key.

[Linda Doolin]

He counted on her keeping her mouth shut. That was his life, full of dirty little secrets. You really need to turn yourself in, or I'm going to tell what you did. And he said, you better not not do that. Stay tuned for part two tomorrow.