Killer Conversation: Jerry Jones

Summary

48 Hours Podcast Summary: "Killer Conversation: Jerry Jones"

Episode Title: Killer Conversation: Jerry Jones
Host/Author: CBS News
Release Date: June 10, 2025

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of "48 Hours," CBS News delves deep into the harrowing case of Jerry Jones, a man convicted of the brutal 1988 murder of his wife, Lee Jones. Hosted by Judy Ryback, a seasoned "48 Hours" producer, and featuring correspondent Peter Van Sant, the episode offers an unflinching examination of the crime, the subsequent trials, and the lingering questions surrounding Jerry Jones' conviction.

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Background of the Case

The murder of Lee Jones stands as one of the most gruesome cases covered by "48 Hours." On December 3, 1988, Lee was brutally stabbed 63 times with a filet knife, a weapon not typically associated with quick, fatal attacks. This method of murder left Lee to bleed out over an extended period, rather than sustaining immediate death. Jerry Jones was convicted for this heinous crime and sentenced to 25 years in prison. However, after serving 16 years, Jones was paroled in 2008, leading to renewed scrutiny and multiple trials over the years.

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The Interview with Jerry Jones

Pre-Murder Relationship

Jerry Jones presents himself as a loving husband and dedicated father. Reflecting on his relationship with Lee, Jerry recounts meeting her in Vietnam, describing it as "love at first sight" [07:15]. He paints a picture of a seemingly idyllic suburban life, emphasizing their three children and the deep affection he still feels for Lee:

"She's still very much a part of my life... I still wish that she was here to be a part of my life..." [08:40]

However, testimonies from Lee's friends painted a different picture, revealing a relationship fraught with control and escalating violence. Lee had been considering divorce, and evidence of legal separation was found posthumously [04:48].

The Night of the Murder

On the night of the murder, Jerry recounts the events leading up to the tragic incident. According to his account:

1. Initial Moments: Jerry heard a loud scream while he was in the bathroom shower [12:30]. He claims to have been petrified and froze upon hearing it [12:44].

2. Encounter with an Unknown Assailant: As Jerry approached to help, he alleges bumping into a man wielding a knife. In the confrontation, Jerry received cuts on his hand while attempting to disarm the attacker [14:31].

3. Discovering Lee: Entering the bathroom, Jerry describes finding Lee struggling in the bathtub. He attempted to help her, but in his agitation, he fell and became disoriented [17:04]. Instead of calling for help, he prioritized ensuring his son's safety, leaving Lee unattended [21:29].

4. 911 Call Irregularities: Jerry's 911 call is riddled with inconsistencies. He provided multiple, incorrect addresses, making it impossible for dispatchers to locate his residence promptly [28:18]. This delay contributed to Lee's death, as help arrived only 14 minutes after the call [28:08].

"He's given this operator in the course of this, two different addresses. They can't find the house... That just feels like a manipulation." [28:23]

Inconsistencies and Doubts

Peter Van Sant exposes significant discrepancies in Jerry's narrative:

• 911 Call Confusion: The erroneous addresses Jerry provided hindered a swift emergency response, which investigators argue was a deliberate tactic to ensure Lee did not receive timely medical assistance [28:18].

• Lack of First Aid Efforts: Given Jerry's military training, experts highlight the absence of any first aid attempts on Lee, suggesting a lack of urgency or care [27:09].

• Behavioral Red Flags: Jerry’s calm demeanor during the recounting of these traumatic events raises suspicions about his authenticity and emotional response to his wife's death [20:56].

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Alternate Suspect: Daniel Busby

A pivotal aspect of the case revolves around Daniel Busby, a 15-year-old neighbor with a questionable history:

• Initial Accusations: During Jerry's second trial, Busby was proposed as an alternative suspect. However, there was no concrete evidence linking Busby to the crime—no fingerprints, DNA, or eyewitness testimonies supported his involvement [34:21].

• Questionable Evidence: The prosecution's case hinged on Busby's obsession with the Jones family, including his fixation on their daughter Beth and an alleged incident where young Thomas heard a growl similar to Busby's [36:01]. Nonetheless, Busby had a verifiable alibi, being at home with his mother during the murder.

• Legal Proceedings: Despite the lack of evidence, Busby faced relentless public and media scrutiny, damaging his reputation and personal life. In the third trial, Jerry, acting as his own attorney, attempted to tarnish Busby's character further, but the jury dismissed these efforts, reaffirming Jerry’s conviction [38:09].

"There’s no evidence whatsoever. There are no fingerprints... It’s just simply ridiculous." [34:21]

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Analysis and Insights

The episode underscores the complexities of the criminal justice system, particularly in cases where substantial evidence seems to support a conviction, yet lingering doubts persist. Jerry Jones' parole and subsequent attempts to clear his name highlight potential flaws in the system, including:

• Rehabilitation vs. Retribution: Washington state's European-style incarceration emphasizes rehabilitation, allowing for early release based on behavior and potential for reform [03:32]. This approach, while commendable, becomes contentious in cases involving violent crimes.

• Media and Public Influence: The persistent media attention and public opinion, influenced by Jerry’s articulate nature and the compelling narratives presented, play a significant role in shaping the discourse around his innocence [05:29].

• Forensic Evidence: The nature of Lee's wounds and the lack of first aid efforts challenge the prosecution's narrative, suggesting premeditation and cold-blooded intent [16:28].

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Conclusion

"Killer Conversation: Jerry Jones" provides an in-depth exploration of a case that intertwines intense personal tragedy with broader questions about justice and truth. Through meticulous interviews and expert analysis, the episode invites listeners to consider the nuances of Jerry Jones' conviction and the possibility of wrongful judgment. As Jerry remains a free man today, the case serves as a sobering reminder of the complexities inherent in the pursuit of justice.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jerry Jones on the Murder:

  "I did not." [00:58]

• Peter Van Sant on Killing Instincts:

  "If you're holding it like, you know... try to imagine now you're holding a knife handle with the blade below your fist... that's where his cuts were." [16:28]

• Jerry Jones on His Actions:

  "I couldn't help her." [20:40]
  "I was in shock. I was scared." [26:30]

• Peter Van Sant on Jerry's Conviction:

  "I think justice was served. It took three bites of the apple to have it happen. But he is a man who murdered his wife. I have no doubt of that." [40:50]

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions presented in the "Killer Conversation: Jerry Jones" episode, offering listeners a thorough understanding of the case and its enduring controversies.

Transcript

[Peter Van Sant]

Now Streaming. Hi again, TV's quirkiest crime solver.

[Judy Ryback]

I'm Elspeth Tasioni. I work with the police.

[Peter Van Sant]

It's on the case.

[Judy Ryback]

I like my outlandish theories with a.

[Jerry Jones]

Heavy dose of evidence and ready to.

[Peter Van Sant]

Go toe to toe with a cavalcade of guest stars. Are you saying that this is now a murder investigation?

[Judy Ryback]

It's starting to look that way.

[Jerry Jones]

Don't miss a moment of the critically acclaimed hit Elsbeth.

[Peter Van Sant]

All episodes now streaming on Paramount and return CBS fall.

[Jerry Jones]

That sounds like fun. Obviously, murder's not fun.

[Elspeth Tasioni]

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[Judy Ryback]

Before we begin just a trigger warning. The following episode contains references to graphic physical violence. Please listen with care.

[Anthony Batson]

Jerry, did you take a filet knife and inflict 63 stab wounds on your wife Lee and kill her?

[Jerry Jones]

I did not.

[Anthony Batson]

And you swear on everything you believe to be holy that that's true?

[Jerry Jones]

Everything I can imagine to be holy? I would swear to that fact, yes.

[Judy Ryback]

That is the sound of Jerry Jones being interviewed by 48 Hours correspondent Peter Van Sant about the 1988 murder of his former 41 year old wife Lee. My name is Judy Ryback. I'm a longtime 48 Hours producer and this is Killer Conversation, a podcast about what we at 48 Hours have learned about the criminal mind after years of interviewing convicted killers. In this episode, Peter Van Sant will take us behind the scenes of two conversations he had with Jones. One of the killers who still haunts him to this day will hear never before heard, revealing exchanges between a highly skilled interviewer and a man convicted of killing the mother of his three children. Peter, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate you taking the time.

[Peter Van Sant]

It's great, Trudy, to be working with you again. We've done this many times, so it's a pleasure.

[Judy Ryback]

So, Peter, about how many killers do you think you've interviewed for 48 hours?

[Peter Van Sant]

Kind of a strange question, isn't it? I mean, I don't get asked that very often, but you know, I did some digging and. Cause over the decades, actually it's over 20 killers, they've strangled, shot, stabbed, blown a husband up in a car bomb, cut throats, tortured, beaten, poisoned, dismembered, burned and buried their victims. They're all scary people. But the man we're gonna talk about today, Jerry Jones, he's from my home state. Of Washington. In fact, this murder case was just about 8 miles from where I grew up. And he still has me looking both ways. When I leave the office, when I leave the broadcast center where we are recording this, I always check to my left and right because it's the way he murdered his wife, Lee that really haunts me to this day.

[Judy Ryback]

That is incredible, Peter. You told me that over dinner one night while we were on the road, and I was just blown away. And that's because Jerry Jones is a free man today. He was paroled from prison in 2008 after serving only 16 years of a 25 year sentence.

[Peter Van Sant]

That's not unusual in my home state of Washington. The system there, they've always taken a European view of incarceration and they see it as a time of rehabilitation, that people can change. And Jerry, after 16 years in prison, he's. He got that second chance and he's now living peaceably, as far as I know, in rural Washington state and western Washington.

[Judy Ryback]

As someone who believes in second chances, I have mixed feelings about that. But I really want people to understand the brutality of this crime.

[Peter Van Sant]

The lead investigator who I interviewed, who had been in many, many homicide situations, had never seen anything like this. Keep in mind, you know, a typical murder on a 48 hour show, somebody shoots someone, or if they're going to use something like a knife, they get a butcher knife. They go for the heart, they go for the jugular, for a quick kill, Right. It was just the opposite in the way that Lee Jones died. She wasn't stabbed as much as this is difficult to listen to. As she was sliced. This was a filet knife that had a curved end to it. It's a kind of knife that, that you might have to cut your steak.

[Jerry Jones]

Right.

[Peter Van Sant]

It was not a butcher knife. And she was cut at least 63 times. And the forensic expert said that there may, may have been 40 different attempts to, to cut her and that the, this movement of the blade, if he was going left to right or right to left, would sometimes be. Give her two or three wounds. So at least 40 different thrusts at her with this knife, but they were not designed to kill her right away. She suffered minute after minute after minute. This woman bled out. That's how she died.

[Judy Ryback]

So when you first met Jones, he had been convicted. He had served 10 years. The conviction was overturned and he had been out for two years. He was about to go to trial a second time. What was that like interviewing a man who you knew had been convicted and was most likely lying to you?

[Peter Van Sant]

Well, what was fascinating about Jerry's case is that it became a bit of a media sensation when he got out. He has two daughters, beautiful, intelligent, articulate. And they had been campaigning on television, not only in the state of Washington, but on a talk show called Lisa, where the three of them were on the show and saying, our father is innocent. We're convinced of it. And they were so convincing that I thought to myself, could they be right? Right? Could, could they be right? And keep in mind, as a journalist, you don't begin an interview with a suspected killer and say, jerry, look, I know you did it. The evidence is irrefutable. You murdered your wife, you tried to manipulate people. You are a killer. You don't do that.

[Judy Ryback]

Right.

[Peter Van Sant]

You want to get into their mind. You want to. This is a, this is a journey you're going to take with him. And so the initial parts of these interviews are always friendly. I want to hear their story and I do, because I want to see can he convince me. And so we met over and over again to talk about his relationship, how they met, their life together, their ups and downs, the evidence. And he was open to any question that I wanted to ask. And that's what a journalist dreams of.

[Anthony Batson]

How did you first meet Lee, Peter?

[Jerry Jones]

As I recall it, I was stationed in Vietnam at Bintoui Air Base, which was down in the Mekong Delta. And I had been there for several months, it seems, and I, I'm almost convinced it was on New Year's Day of 1970 that I encountered this, the most gorgeous creature I'd ever laid eyes on in my life. And for me, it was just love at first sight.

[Anthony Batson]

When you speak of Lee, I mean, your eyes really brighten, you have a smile on your face.

[Judy Ryback]

Sounds like a Disney movie, but it's more like a Hitchcock film, right?

[Peter Van Sant]

Like a Hallmark film. Yeah, it's. But again, for our audience listening to this, that gentle manner he has now, he sounds like a romantic and he's in Vietnam. He was serving our country. And when you see a picture of them back in the day, she's beautiful, a very handsome man and authoritative figure to her. And probably seemed like a match made in heaven for the two of them.

[Judy Ryback]

Jerry sounds like a light hearted teenager in love when he talks about Lee. Do you think that was real or smoke and mirrors?

[Peter Van Sant]

A communications professor of mine in college once told me, he said, peter, words don't have meaning, People have meaning.

[Anthony Batson]

Just the thought of her still warms your heart.

[Jerry Jones]

Absolutely. She's still very much a part of My life. I don't think there's a day that goes by that I don't think about her and think about her warmly and affectionately. And, you know, I still wish that she was here to be a part of my life and me to be a part of hers. And to enjoy our grandchildren and look at our children and how they've grown and developed into such fine young people. So it's been a big loss for us all.

[Anthony Batson]

You miss her?

[Jerry Jones]

Absolutely. I'd give anything if I could have her back right now.

[Judy Ryback]

My goodness. Yeah. So he thinks about her warmly and affectionately. He didn't even say he missed her until you asked him.

[Peter Van Sant]

He's speaking these words, but sitting across from him, he doesn't seem, in my opinion, to miss. He has the soft presentation. I do miss her, Peter, but the emotion is not there.

[Judy Ryback]

So just before her death, how would.

[Peter Van Sant]

You describe their relationship from outside appearances? Here is a very successful pharmaceutical salesman. Lee is the mother of three beautiful children, two girls and a boy. They live in a lovely suburban neighborhood. But according to two of Lee's friends, she was talking about divorcing Jerry. Look, after her death, investigators found legal separation papers in their bedroom. Right. Friends say that the marriage was near a breaking point. Lee was miserable. She feared him. Lee's friends, she had a couple who testified in the course of these trials. Said that he was an absolute control freak with her. That he dominated her in this relationship. Every day she had to lay out his socks he was going to wear that day on the bed. In a certain way. If she didn't. He got very angry with her. These friends say, according to Lee, he was becoming physically abusive. That he had struck her a number of times. They would see her wearing sunglasses and ask her to take them off. And they'd see a black eye or bruising and ask about it. And he'd say, well, I didn't do what he wanted last night. So there's a belief that there was escalating violence toward Lee prior to this terrible, terrible murder.

[Anthony Batson]

And, Jerry, you know, there are people who are so skeptical of you. They don't think what you just said is genuine. What do you say to those people?

[Jerry Jones]

It's hard to answer somebody like that. Because they've come to that belief for reasons that I can't understand or explain myself. To the best of my knowledge. Everyone who actually knows me, Jerry Jones as a person, knows that I'm absolutely incapable of murdering anyone and certainly not Lee.

[Judy Ryback]

This is what Jerry Jones says happened on the night of December 3, 1980.

[Jerry Jones]

8.

[Judy Ryback]

He and his wife Lee were home with their four year old son Thomas, watching television. Their oldest daughter, Kim had moved out and their middle child Beth was at a party. Jerry says Lee put Thomas to sleep in his basement bedroom and then went upstairs to a hallway bathroom to take a bath. Jerry says he then went across the hall to their primary bathroom to take a shower. He says the water was running when he heard Lee scream.

[Jerry Jones]

I heard this horrible scream and I just. I'd never heard anything like that before in my entire life. I was just. I was petrified just, just from the scream.

[Anthony Batson]

One loud, piercing scream.

[Jerry Jones]

One loud, piercing scream. That. And that's what I heard. And, and I froze for a second or two or three.

[Anthony Batson]

And the floor plan of the house, where your shower was running and where her bath was running, there's a common wall there.

[Jerry Jones]

Yes.

[Anthony Batson]

She was in the fight of her life. She's a strong woman. The amount of, just the volume of that battle, the thumping around that was going on in there. Didn't you hear any of that, Peter?

[Jerry Jones]

I did not, no. Had I heard it, I certainly would have run to her aid sooner than that.

[Anthony Batson]

And you understand how for some people that's hard to believe.

[Jerry Jones]

Well, you know, I, I don't know if it's possible, I'm going to say this. It might be possible to do a reenactment.

[Judy Ryback]

You and your producer, Anthony Batson, actually did do an experiment in that house. Tell us about that.

[Peter Van Sant]

I was in one bathroom and Anthony Batson was in the other. Right. We could talk to each other as I'm talking to you right now and hear every word. I took out like a dime and I dropped it on the bathtub. We could hear it as if we're both in the same room. It is impossible for this battle to have gone on. Impossible. And not hear it. I'm telling you, the amount of noise that you could hear through that common wall, it's almost like as we are speaking right now. And his story is just ridiculous.

[Judy Ryback]

But Jones kept insisting to you that he only heard one story, just the one, and then ran toward the bathroom. And on the way he bumped into a man with a knife.

[Jerry Jones]

This is happening so quickly, so fast. You start perceiving that something is coming out. And as I'm moving closer to the doorway, you, you can see more and more. And it's a knife that my, my vision, my focus, my attention was just riveted. It's a knife and I'm continuing forward. And this person, it's just a figure, is Moving. And we just more or less meet in the doorway and collide right there in the doorway to the bathroom. I'm not thinking that I need to deflect that knife. That never entered my mind. It's just a. The fact that it happened was just a reflex action. You see a knife, and my hand went in the direction of that knife and dislodged it from his hand. And in the process, I suffered some cuts.

[Judy Ryback]

Let's talk about those cuts on Jerry's hand. He says he was defending himself, but the prosecutor has a different story, right?

[Peter Van Sant]

Absolutely. The prosecution and their forensic experts says the wounds that Jerry has are consistent with cuts. While you're stabbing or cutting someone with a knife, you've gotten that knife bloody from your victim. And blood is a very slippery substance. And this is something that has occurred in a number of cases that I have covered. Where someone has used a knife, particularly in murders of rage, where they stab multiple times, is that the hand will slide down the handle onto the blade. And so if you're holding it like, you know. Try to imagine now you're holding a knife handle with the blade below your fist, and it slides down. Where you get the cut is on the inside of the upper parts of your fingers. That's where his cuts were, Rhett.

[Judy Ryback]

So he gets cut. He bumps into this guy. This is what Jones says happened next.

[Jerry Jones]

In the process of the collision, I was forced back and I bumped my head against the wall and fell to the floor. I saw stars. I'm convinced that I did not lose consciousness, but I saw stars. And I was dazed. And I think I was not down for more than a second or two. And when I got up, there was nobody in the hallway any longer.

[Judy Ryback]

He saw stars. Was there any evidence that he had been knocked out?

[Peter Van Sant]

No. And if he saw stars, that was only because he stepped outside and looked up into the night sky. That, again, is another ridiculous story. There's no evidence of any concussion. There was no bump on his head, no bruise, nothing whatsoever to support this. This is someone who is making a story up.

[Jerry Jones]

I immediately went into the bathroom and I encountered the most horrible situation I've ever seen in my life. I could see blood on her body, and she is struggling. She's trying to push with her feet back into the corner of the bathtub. She's throwing her hands about in front of her as if fighting off an attacker. The closer I got to her, I reached the side of the tub, and I reached in almost immediately and I said, my godly, what happened? And in the process of doing that, I was reaching in to try to lift her to me and my feet literally just flew out from under me.

[Anthony Batson]

Did she speak to you?

[Jerry Jones]

She was trying to speak, I'm convinced of that. Her. Her jaw would fall open as if she was trying to speak and then it would snap shut just repeatedly like that. I can recall this chattering sound of her teeth. It's the most under the circumstances. I mean, it's just like. It's a crescendo of noise and yet it's just the chattering of teeth.

[Judy Ryback]

That chattering sound he makes with his teeth made me think of Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs. Do you recall what you were thinking in that moment?

[Peter Van Sant]

Takes a lot to shock me and freak me out. I was completely freaked out. It sent a chill down my spine and it takes a lot to do that.

[Anthony Batson]

Kerry, help me out here. Cause this is where a lot of people. It doesn't make sense. You're a bright, articulate man. You've had military training. Why haven't you gone to that phone and dialed 911?

[Jerry Jones]

I don't have a good answer for you, Peter. Had I to do it over again and had I been completely in control of my faculties, that certainly is what I would have done first and foremost.

[Anthony Batson]

Did you just lose it?

[Jerry Jones]

Yes. Yes. That's. That's what happened. That's the truth. That's the way it happened. Had you come to my door that day and had you said, jerry, there's going to be an emergency in the neighborhood tonight and we need somebody who can do the right thing under pressure, I would have said, peter, I'm your man. I can do it. But when it happened in my own home and when my. When my wife needed me the most, I couldn't do it.

[Peter Van Sant]

I couldn't help her.

[Judy Ryback]

Watching this clip, I literally leaned into the monitor to see if there were any tears coming out of his eyes. There was not a single tear. He's crying. It's so dramatic. Not a single tear.

[Peter Van Sant]

Completely manipulative, A completely disingenuous, disgusting.

[Judy Ryback]

Jerry Jones says that instead of calling 91 1, he decided to take matters into his own hands and tried to wrestle his bloody wife out of the bathtub. Then things got even more complicated. He says when their four year old son Thomas woke up, climbed the stairs and walked in on what must have been a terrifying scene.

[Jerry Jones]

And Thomas comes into the room and Thomas, you've got to go back to bed. Your mom's hurt. I'm trying to help her. I've got to call 91 1. Please go back to bed. And he very dutifully turns and, and leaves.

[Anthony Batson]

What happens then?

[Jerry Jones]

Well, I resume my efforts to get Lee out of the tub. And again, every time I reach in and grasp her, she slips out of my hands. And after two or three additional attempts in this direction, I'm just so frustrated. I don't give up. But I hear Thomas calling for me downstairs. He's scared. He knows something has happened. He's apprehensive. I run down to him.

[Judy Ryback]

Jerry says he decided to put on his boots and take Thomas to a neighbor's house.

[Jerry Jones]

The thought that enters my mind and controls what I do next is I've got to get Thomas to a safe place.

[Anthony Batson]

At this point, is Lee still alive?

[Jerry Jones]

At this point, I think she is completely non animated, probably alive, but her last breath is in her at this point in time. This is several minutes later. Three, five minutes and life is. I mean, when I first encountered her, she's still struggling. And this quickly, within three to five minutes, she's at the point where if she's breathing at all, it's very shallow, very sporadic, not much life left.

[Judy Ryback]

That just takes my breath away every time I hear it. He is calmly sitting there telling you that with precious minutes ticking by, he has decided to leave his dying wife and take his son. Son next door. Why didn't he just call the neighbor and ask him to come get Thomas and then call 911?

[Peter Van Sant]

You know, the, the thought is, is that that would have made covering up this murder much harder if the, if the neighbor had come over to get Thomas.

[Judy Ryback]

Right.

[Peter Van Sant]

He might have insisted on entering the house. He might have. And calling 911 from there. Maybe he would have spoken to Lee. Maybe she would have cried out if she realized another man was in the house. And, and, and maybe he would have attempted to try to help save her. It would just mess up what he had set in motion and likely lead to his arrest.

[Judy Ryback]

Right, right. This next clip really stood out to me. You pushed him hard and he just smiled and once again calmly said some of the most shocking things I have ever heard.

[Anthony Batson]

You know, there are some who believe you took your son over to your neighbor so you could go back and finish off Lee.

[Jerry Jones]

Well, that has never been expressed in those exact words. I, I would say this, that while I've in the Air Force, I was never really trained to kill anybody. I, I have had some training in self defense techniques and, and there was a brief period when I went to a school in Florida, prior to going to Vietnam, where they, they taught us some rudimentary techniques for attacking another person. Some basic training with a knife, some. Some basic training. If, if I were going to kill Lee or you or anyone else and I had an opportunity to pick my time and my place, I would just cut your throat. I know that there is a jugular vein there. I know approximately where it's located. And that would be very silent. There wouldn't be a scream. If you did get that jugular vein, the fight would be out of the individual within seconds.

[Anthony Batson]

And the allegation is this was a crime of passion, of hatred, and that if you did it, that these moves were done in such anger to punish, to inflict a cruel death.

[Jerry Jones]

That there was no anger and there was. There's none of that.

[Anthony Batson]

At best, your behavior at this point has been bizarre. Do you agree with that?

[Jerry Jones]

I would agree with that, yes.

[Anthony Batson]

And your explanation for this bizarre behavior is what?

[Jerry Jones]

I was in shock. I was scared. I'd never encountered anything like that before in my entire life. I wish I had done the right thing. I wish I'd done the things that would have been in Lee's best interest. I look back, had I called immediately, it could have made a difference. Others, though, who. Medical experts who have examined the autopsy report have told me that it probably wouldn't have made a difference.

[Peter Van Sant]

Those of us who've been through military style first aid training, and I've done that twice now. Pack, wrap, elevate. You pack these wounds quickly in that room with toilet paper. If there's Kleenex in there, you put them inside all the wounds. It stops the bleeding. You use your clothing, use towels to wrap. If he was. And she had none of that on her when the authorities arrived, she didn't have evidence that he was trying to stop the bleeding.

[Judy Ryback]

Oh, that's so interesting.

[Peter Van Sant]

And that's the part of his story that just drives me crazy, is that there should have been evidence of him doing everything he could to stop this bleeding. And there was none. And the truth is, is that through their investigation, authorities believe that he took at least six minutes from the time he discovered put quotes around that her body before he called 911. Six minutes passed.

[Judy Ryback]

I did not realize that. That is truly stunning. And speaking of stunning evidence. Let's get to that. 911. Call 911.

[Jerry Jones]

What do you have? Hurry. My wife and I. Let me give you aid dispatch, sir.

[Peter Van Sant]

Hurry, hurry.

[Jerry Jones]

Please hurry. Aid dispatch. Yes, my wife. What's the address? 6015. 190. 169th Place, Southeast.

[Peter Van Sant]

Hurry, please.

[Jerry Jones]

Okay. 60151 69th Place. Say again? No, you repeat it to me, sir. 601511 69th.

[Peter Van Sant]

Hurry. He's given this operator in the course of this, two different addresses. They can't find the house. This is. I've never heard of this. You know, I've covered. Judy, you too? We've covered dozens and dozens of murder cases. How many 911 calls I've heard. I've never heard of somebody not knowing where they live and making this kind of mistake. That just feels like a manipulation.

[Judy Ryback]

The dispatchers were confused because they couldn't find Jerry in the phone book. The ambulance was having trouble finding his house and he kept walking away from the phone. And in that time, the dispatchers realized that he had given them the wrong address.

[Jerry Jones]

All right, sir, you're gonna have. Down the road, you're gonna have to help me because we have a crime scene with your address. Please give me your address again. What is your address? Let me go look. I'll write down. He's gonna go look. This is the most uncooperative trauma victim I've ever had.

[Judy Ryback]

The most uncooperative trauma victim I've ever had. Jerry walked away from the phone a fourth time for about 20 seconds and then returned with a new address. Okay, Peter, all I can say is what the fudge?

[Peter Van Sant]

I don't buy it.

[Judy Ryback]

The prosecutor said he believed that Jerry was stalling to make sure that Lee was dead. Let's listen to you ask him about that.

[Anthony Batson]

The prosecution alleges that this was part of your diabolical plot that you were letting bleed to death. You didn't want the aid car to get there right away.

[Jerry Jones]

And if that were the case, I would have just waited and waited and I might still be waiting. I may never have called 91 1, and I would have just. I would have made up a story. Well, I didn't think about calling 911 or. I don't know what I would have done. I'm not good at making up these stories. Unfortunately, or fortunately, whatever the case might be.

[Judy Ryback]

He'S right about one thing. He is not good at making up stories.

[Peter Van Sant]

He could have transported her body somewhere. But the fact that Thomas walked in on the scene screwed up. If that was his plan, screwed everything up. He then had to call 911 because. Or eliminate his own son. And he'd made a decision, obviously, not to do that. And so this, to me, is a meticulous plan by someone who has this controlling personality that goes awry. And then he tried to. Tried to compensate with delaying tactics and everything else, but Thomas walking in on that scene, I believe, just messed everything up.

[Judy Ryback]

So a little over 14 minutes have elapsed from the time Jerry dialed 911 to the moment help arrived. Lee was pronounced dead, dead on the scene with no cpr, even attempted. And Jerry was arrested that very night. In 1989, Jerry Jones faced a jury of his peers. They found him guilty of first degree murder and he was sentenced to 25 years in prison. In 1998, just over 10 years after Lee was murdered, a judge set aside Jerry's conviction, ruling that in the first trial, Jerry, Jerry's lawyer should have been able to present evidence about a possible alternate suspect. A 15 year old boy who lived in the neighborhood named Daniel Busby.

[Peter Van Sant]

My name is Jack Wagner, host of Otherworld, a podcast featuring real people who experience something paranormal, supernatural or unexplained. I have no idea how I got there.

[Judy Ryback]

I don't think I've ever seen it.

[Jerry Jones]

Anything that looks like this, it felt.

[Peter Van Sant]

Like electric stars on fire. I started Otherworld to take a grounded approach to the paranormal, help people tell their own stories and encourage more to come forward. I certainly don't have the answers, but.

[Jerry Jones]

Maybe one day we will.

[Peter Van Sant]

Join me as we explore our world's greatest mysteries. Listen to Otherworld now for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Anthony Batson]

Who is Daniel Busby?

[Jerry Jones]

My knowledge of him on a firsthand basis is of a obnoxious teenage boy who lived in our neighborhood. I think I first heard his name mentioned probably in the spring of 1988. As the year progressed, I heard the name mentioned more and more frequently, usually in a negative connotation. Lee particularly didn't like him. And saying that of Lee is saying a lot because I don't think I would have to really, really search my memory to give you the name of anyone else that Lee did not like.

[Judy Ryback]

So a 15 year old snuck into his house and sliced up his wife. What evidence is there of that?

[Peter Van Sant]

There's no evidence whatsoever of that. There's no evidence of an intruder. There's no fingerprints in that bathroom. There is no DNA. There are no eyewitnesses. It's simply he would have had to have levitated into that house and committed this murder. And think about this. A 15 year old comes in to do this murder, but he, he would have been aware of Jerry and the other sh. In. In the other. Because of that common wall that you can hear Anything that Jerry was in the house, in the other room, and he's committing this vicious, horrible physical battle. It's. It's just simply ridiculous. And this poor kid Busby endured these accusations over the years. He gets reported over and over in the papers. Just destroyed his life. No evidence whatsoever. And I find that story preposterous.

[Judy Ryback]

Yes, preposterous is a good word. Busby also had an alibi. His mother said he was at home with her that night. So what evidence was there to justify a second trial?

[Peter Van Sant]

Well, they're letters. First off, it seems that Busby was obsessed with Jerry and Lee's youngest daughter Beth. And it seems he may have also been obsessed with Lee. And he would be a bit of a pest around the house. He liked to drop by. And I know that Lee had expressed to a friend that he kind of creeped her out a bit. The way he would stare at her in sort of a longing way.

[Judy Ryback]

And then there's this crazy story about the fact that the four year old Thomas, who was in bed downstairs from where the murder was, that he heard somebody growl and that woke him up. And apparently the only person who ever growled at 4 year old Thomas was this Busby character. So it's the letters, the obsession with Lee and Beth and this one growl that Thomas heard. And that's the evidence that he has. So as we know, Jerry was found guilty a second time. His conviction was reinstated and his sentence remained the same. So they didn't re sentence him. And just when you thought this case was over, you get a call that a judge decided Jerry still hadn't gotten a fair trial, so he was getting a third and he was once again released and wanted to talk to you.

[Anthony Batson]

And this third trial, what are you going to be able to bring in to this courtroom that you haven't been able to do in the past?

[Jerry Jones]

Well, we'll be allowed to bring in the fact that Danny Busby has a 16 year history of violence against women. Both psychological and physical attacks on every woman he's ever had a relationship with. I think we're going to be allowed to paint him as the monster that he is. And I believe the evidence will convince the jury that he indeed is the person responsible for Lee's death.

[Anthony Batson]

Why is Danny Busby's conduct after Lee's murder relevant to the murder itself?

[Jerry Jones]

Because it's a pattern of behavior.

[Judy Ryback]

So Jerry, acting as his own attorney, actually called Daniel Busby to the witness stand and questioned him about all that same stuff that they went over in the second trial. The letters to Lee, the growl, whatever. But also about his record with women, what he did to women as an adult.

[Peter Van Sant]

Well, Busby was not a cooperating witness. He was annoyed. This is the man who had ruined his life in many ways by getting his name into the public for a crime that authorities believed he did not commit or have anything to do with it.

[Anthony Batson]

The police and the prosecutor says there's no evidence against Danny Busby. The jury set aside Danny Busby in their deliberations immediately, saying there's no evidence he did the crime. If he didn't do it and you didn't do it, who had the motive, the reason to murder Lee?

[Jerry Jones]

Well, it's no third mysterious person. Either I did it or Danny Busby did it. Obviously, 36 jurors have come to the conclusion, for reasons I can't explain, that I did it. But I can look you or anyone else in the eye and tell you I did not murder my wife. And all I can ask you or these jurors, they saw the evidence in the courtroom, but I don't know, look at it in a little more depth. What on earth is required to prove reasonable doubt?

[Judy Ryback]

You know what's interesting? The judge even scolded him after he was convicted and sentenced for dragging Daniel Busby repeatedly through the mud for nearly 17 years. And the jury felt he owed Daniel Busby an apology.

[Anthony Batson]

Do you owe Danny Busby an apology?

[Jerry Jones]

No. Danny Busby cannot look me in the eye and ask me for an apology. He knows what he did. He knows who he is. He knows that he murdered Lee Jones. Following the second trial, he became emboldened and he has told several people, I did it and I'll be do it again. He has told several people, you know, they have the wrong guy in prison because I did it. He thinks, and I believe he knows in his mind that he has gotten away with murder and that he can say whatever he wants to say. And. And he has told people that he murdered my wife.

[Judy Ryback]

Okay? So for the record, that is absolutely untrue. Daniel Busby testified under oath that he never told anyone that he killed Lee. And no one has ever testified that he did tell them he killed Lee.

[Peter Van Sant]

When you listen to him, he has a gentle sound. When you look at him, when you're talking to him, he has a gentle face. But behind that, to me, it's a mask. Behind that is a cold hearted killer and one who deserved this verdict of guilt. I think justice was served. It took three bites of the apple to have it happen. But he is a man who murdered his wife. I have no doubt of that.

[Judy Ryback]

No doubt. So I love that you asked Jerry at the end of the interview if he was going to try for a fourth trial, and his answer just made me laugh out loud.

[Jerry Jones]

I'm not interested in a fourth trial. I'll do the ballots of the three years I have on my sentence. When I'm released, I will move to Southeast Asia. I will work with orphans. I will do what I can to keep young ladies out of the sex trade. And I will work with those who are disabled as a result of the Vietnam War.

[Judy Ryback]

Oh, my God. I can't take it. I will work with orphans, keep ladies out of sex trades. Save the whales, feed the hungry. Holy cow.

[Peter Van Sant]

Yeah. And he lives off of a country road near Arlington, Washington, today in a small house. He never went to Southeast Asia. He never helped ladies out of the sex trade. He didn't do any of those things.

[Judy Ryback]

Well, Peter, this case is so fascinating from start to finish. And your interviews are just a masterclass in how to question a killer. I am so grateful that you took the time to join us on this podcast.

[Peter Van Sant]

Well, this was your idea, this wonderful podcast, and I think it's fascinating to try to get into the minds of these killers. Just a very frightening place to be.

[Judy Ryback]

On the next episode of Killer Conversation, Aaron Moriarty will join me to discuss Brian Stewart, also known as Rick Valentini. My first killer. He's a guy who changed his name illegally, lied about who he was, and murdered his 32 year old girlfriend, Jamie Laity. You're not really Brian Stewart at all, are you?

[Anthony Batson]

To me I am.

[Judy Ryback]

But not legally, are you?

[Jerry Jones]

Well, legally, I'm not anything.

[Peter Van Sant]

That's the problem.

[Judy Ryback]

Well, you're Rick Valentini. 48 Hours killer conversation is hosted and produced by me, Judy Ryback. Our story editor is Mora Walls. Alan Peng oversees recording, mixing and sound design, fact checking and additional production support from Rebecca Laflamme. And Special thanks to 48 Hours executive producer Judy Tygard and Paramount Podcast Vice president Megan Marcus. Follow and listen to Killer Conversation on the Free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. If you liked this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Tune in next Tuesday for an all new episode of Killer Conversation. Follow Killer Conversation on the Free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Peter Van Sant]

Novocade is now streaming on Paramount. Plus, you're gonna love this. It's an adrenaline rush of fun. This is the best and a bloody good time. Looking forward to it. Novocay.

[Anthony Batson]

Rated R. Now streaming on Paramount.

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[Peter Van Sant]

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[Jerry Jones]

How you doing?

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