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- [00:00]
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- [01:21]
Tracy Smith
Foreign.
- [01:31]
Erin Moriarty
Welcome back to Postmortem. I'm 48 Hours correspondent Erin Moriarty stepping in as host today to talk with CBS News correspondent Tracy Smith on the west coast about the high profile case of Denise Huskins and erin Quinn. In March 2015, Denise was abducted by an intruder at her boyfriend Aaron's home in Vallejo, California. The couple told detectives that both of them had been drugged, blindfolded and tied up, but they felt that police didn't believe their stories. Since then, they've gotten married, continued to fight for justice for other victims of their attacker, Matthew Mueller. Tracy, thanks for joining me and sharing many more details about this very strange case.
- [02:19]
Tracy Smith
Thanks so much for having me, Aaron. You know, I love the phrase be your own hero. I tell my kids that sometimes Denise and Aaron Quinn are examples of that. Be your own hero. They were determined to find out what other crimes Mueller had committed. And thanks in part to their work, Mueller admitted to a list of crimes going all the way back to 1993. And that's how we got in touch with a woman who Mueller was his very first victim. She felt that law enforcement didn't believe her. Back in 1993. She went three decades with no answers. And thanks to Denise and Erin and the team that they worked with, she finally found some justice.
- [03:02]
Erin Moriarty
Tracey this is such a strange story with a very strange defendant and I am anxious to get into these details. But before we get into our conversation, just a quick reminder. If you haven't watched or listened to this episode and it's called Denise and Aaron Quinn in Get the Last Word, go check it out now and then come back for our conversation. So, Tracy, a lot of our listeners may have heard about this case from watching the Netflix docu series American Nightmare. In that series, Denise and Aaron shared details about their March 2015 attack and Denise's kidnapping. She was held captive for two days and raped before her attacker drove her to Huntington beach and then released her near her childhood home. But when they reported this attack to the police, the couple said they were accused of making the whole thing up until nearly three months later when another California home invasion led investigators to arrest their attacker. He was 38 year old Matthew Mueller. So what did you learn about Mueller through your reporting, Traci?
- [04:13]
Tracy Smith
Well, you know, a lot was made at the time that Mueller was arrested of how he was a Harvard educated lawyer and a former Marine. He'd also been an immigration attorney. He didn't have an extensive criminal history at the time of his arrest in 2015, which was for the second California home invasion. And then soon after, he was connected to Aaron and Denise Quinn's attack. But Denise and Aaron were convinced that he had done this before. He had told Denise when he had her in captivity that he had done this before. And sure enough, they were right.
- [04:46]
Erin Moriarty
So what's new then in our 48 hours report?
- [04:50]
Tracy Smith
Well, we tell the truly remarkable story about what has happened since American Nightmare was released in 2024. Denise and Aaron told their story back then, but they didn't want to stop there. They didn't want to move on. They knew that there were other victims out there. So they teamed up with Police Chief Nick Borges from Seaside, California, and a DA named Vern Pearson, who's the district attorney of El Dorado county to unco additional crimes that Mueller committed. And they really became this super team that found other victims and gave them some closure. Part of the reason that they wanted to investigate further is that not only did Denise and Aaron think there were other victims out there, they thought he wasn't working alone and that those people could still be out there. When Mueller attacked them, he drugged them. He gave them blacked out goggles, but they thought, thought they heard several voices. He told them that he wasn't working alone.
- [05:46]
Erin Moriarty
So in your report, we also hear from Police Chief Nick Borges. You mentioned him about how he wanted to help Denise and Aaron get answers even though he wasn't even involved in the original investigation. So how did he get involved?
- [06:01]
Tracy Smith
He was watching Netflix and was, you know, just stunned by what happened to them. And so he reached out to Denise to apologize on behalf of all of law enforcement.
- [06:14]
Erin Moriarty
I mean, as your show also indicated, there was a real problem with the initial investigation. After Denise was abducted and Aaron had no idea what had happened to her, he went to the police. But to Aaron's horror, the police appeared not to believe him and even seemed to accuse him of killing Denise.
- [06:35]
Tracy Smith
In the hour, we see the interview with the lead detective that he conducted with Aaron, and we have a portion of it. This is an edited portion of it, but I just want to play this for you because you'll get the tone.
- [06:46]
Erin Moriarty
Denise is going to be found, and when I say she's found, she's dead. They did not come into your house and kidnap her and take her for ransom. That did not happen. It didn't? No, it did not. Oh, my God, it even gets worse. Two days after being kidnapped, Denise was released, as we mentioned, in Huntington Beach. And so she spoke to the police there. She sensed she wasn't being believed either. And even though her story matched Erin's account and they hadn't been able to communicate since the attack, I was also shocked that Denise says that even though her attorney told the Vallejo police that she had been raped, they wouldn't set up a sexual assault exam until she spoke directly with them. And we know that with these rape kits, time is of the essence. You have to do it right away.
- [07:40]
Tracy Smith
Oh, yeah. Denise says that the Vallejo police told her that since she'd only talked to the Huntington beach police and not to them, they wouldn't let her get this rape kit until after she talked to them. So she says they interviewed her for six hours before they set up the test. And she actually told Chief Borges that not being believed and going through that was actually more traumatic than the assault itself. I mean, one thing that Denise and Aaron hope that law enforcement learns from this case is that there's no typical way for a victim to react. And they really felt like everything they did was seen through this lens of, well, they're guilty, they're lying. I mean, Aaron was saying that if we were too stoic, then we're psychopaths, and if we're emotional, then we're playing for the cameras. He said, you know, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
- [08:31]
Erin Moriarty
There were allegations of additional issues with the original investigation, too. Right, Tracee?
- [08:37]
Tracy Smith
Oh, yeah. Denise and Aaron learned later that the Vallejo police actually put Aaron's phone, which is the way that he was supposed to communicate with the kidnappers, on airplane mode. So they missed at least two calls from Mueller while Aaron was there at the police department being interviewed. Mueller also sent anonymous emails to the San Francisco Chronicle and the Vallejo PD saying this isn't a hoax. And he even included a photo of where Denise was held captive. And Aaron says that even after Mueller was arrested and connected to their crime, that he felt like the police were still trying to tie the three of them together, saying, oh, well, then all three of them must have been in on it.
- [09:18]
Erin Moriarty
Your investigation also shows that the media has to be held accountable, too, because reporters also played a role in shaping the story. I remember seeing headlines back in 2015 calling the kidnapping a hoax.
- [09:34]
Tracy Smith
Yes, this is a bizarre case. So, of course, the media latched onto it and definitely played up this idea that it was a hoax. And I think it does require some reflection on all of our parts, you know, even if we weren't covering that case at the time. In fact, Julie Watts, who's the investigative correspondent for CBS News California, who we interviewed for this hour, she didn't report on it back in 2015, but she's since done a lot of coverage of Denise and Aaron's story. And she said it changed how she reports stories, that now she thinks, okay, what if investigators have this wrong and the suspect is innocent? You know, let me think about how this will affect not just the victim, but the suspect if the story changes.
- [10:16]
Erin Moriarty
I mean, it is a reminder that reporters have to question the prosecutors and investigators, too, because they can get it wrong. Matthew Mueller took a plea deal, and in 2017, he received a sentence of 40 years. And that was total for both a home invasion in Dublin, California, and Denise and Aaron's attack. Denise and Aaron filed a civil lawsuit against the city of Vallejo and eventually settled for $2.5 million.
- [10:48]
Tracy Smith
Yeah, that's right. The Vallejo Police Department did release a statement after the settlement, and here's a portion of what they said. The Huskins Quinn case was not publicly handled with the type of sensitivity a case of this nature should have been handled with. So they did release that statement. The police chief did apologize for the department's comments in a letter that he sent to the Quinns. We reached out to the Vallejo pd, and they did not respond to our request for a comment.
- [11:15]
Erin Moriarty
I would have liked to have heard what they had to say.
- [11:17]
Tracy Smith
Me, too.
- [11:18]
Erin Moriarty
So Fast forward to 2024. After Chief Borges saw the Netflix documentary and connected with Denise and Aaron, he did something kind of interesting. He decided to write to Mueller in prison in an effort to get answers. And Mueller wrote back?
- [11:36]
Tracy Smith
Yes, Mueller wrote back. Chief Borges actually jokes that the two of them became pen pals. So he writes to Mueller. Mueller sends this package of letters. And we have a clip where Borges talks about being alone in the police station when he gets this package of letters.
- [11:54]
Police Chief Nick Borges
So I was at my desk, and there was the mail. And I went, oh, he wrote another letter. And I remember feeling the weight to it. I thought, I don't know what's in here, but it's a lot, a lot of pages. And I started to read these things. I'm by myself and to understand my world. I'm the police chief. The police officers are out on the street, and I'm reading these declarations. He was giving details that I knew were accurate. I felt like this guy's confessing, and I was bouncing off my walls. I couldn't. There was no one to talk to, but I was just bouncing off my walls. Like, I can't believe this guy just sent this.
- [12:31]
Erin Moriarty
You know, I really like the police chief. I mean, he just seems like he really was trying to get to the bottom of it. And it does seem that Mueller was ready to come clean. So what did he actually tell Chief Borges?
- [12:44]
Tracy Smith
I have an excerpt from one of his declarations where he actually confesses to another crime from 2009. So he says the idea to raid a home and rape a woman developed in August or September of 2009. I was in a manic state at the time due to bipolar disorder, though I do not believe I was psychotic. In other words, it seems my decision making was impaired and warped. But I did not believe reality to be other than it would seem to another healthy person. Since I could not sleep at night, I began taking long walks in the vicinity of my Menlo park apartment. At some point, out of boredom or curiosity, I began watching people in their homes. First from the curb or driveway, but soon from outside their windows.
- [13:25]
Erin Moriarty
Okay, this gives me the creeps. This really makes me want to pull down shades all the time. And this case also reminds me a little of the Golden State Killer, who had once worked as a police officer. Both of these cases, neither man, on the surface, seems like a violent criminal.
- [13:43]
Tracy Smith
And the crimes escalate in both of those cases, and they also went for years without being caught. In that declaration, Mueller confessed to two crimes in Santa Clara county in 2009. So that's six years before Denise and Aaron's attack. And he wrote that in those cases, he cased the neighborhood. He was researching which residences would be easy to get into. He tried the locks, and he also hinted that there were more crimes, but he kind of just teased the details in those letters that he wrote to Borges.
- [14:25]
Erin Moriarty
Welcome back. So in 2024, El Dorado County District Attorney Vern Pearson was also looking into Matthew Mueller. Even though, like Chief Borges, he wasn't involved in the original investigation, he wanted to speak with Mueller directly and thought the best way to get him to open up more was to use a strategy called science based interviewing. Tracy, I've never heard about this, so can you talk about how science based interviewing is different from other law enforcement interrogation techniques?
- [15:00]
Tracy Smith
Sure. Oh, it's fascinating to me. So in science based interviewing, you don't have an established point of view going in. It's almost like you're, instead of playing Know it all, like, well, we know what happened here. You're playing naive. And the idea is to just make somebody comfortable so that they're willing to give you this information that you can then go investigate to see what's true and what's not. And, and Vern Pearson is a leading advocate for this type of investigating, and he says the goal here is a little different than old school law enforcement interviewing in that you're not trying to get a confession, you're just trying to get information.
- [15:37]
Erin Moriarty
I feel that we as journalists take a similar approach when we're talking to people who are accused or convicted, because we want them to talk. We want them just to tell us their side of the story without accusing them or going into the interview. Overly aggressive.
- [15:55]
Tracy Smith
Yes. I think this totally applies to what you and I do. I was asking Pearson actually after the interview, like, what books should I get and how can I find out more information about science based interviewing? Because it's just so interesting to me. I mean, I think personally it made me think about how there's a performative aspect to what we do, where sometimes I feel like, to be honest, I'm asking a question because it's good TV and not because it's gonna elicit the information that I might need. So it really made me think about, you know, when I ask a question like, how could you murder the mother of your children? Am I really expecting to get information there? And also, you do so much research. I do so much research when we do these cases. I do also feel like sometimes I just wanna show how much I know in a question instead, instead of playing naive like Pearson is talking about and just letting the information come out well.
- [16:48]
Erin Moriarty
And I'm guilty as charged in that. Sometimes I go into that prosecutor mode, but I also sometimes do it to see how they react. Maybe they'll get mad at me and show some kind of their personality. But in this case, DA Vern Pearson was trying to get information. So he brought in a highly skilled FBI interviewer. And that was in November 2024 to meet personally with Matthew Mueller. He was serving his sentence at an Arizona prison. Pierson was anxious to see what else Mueller might confess to. So, Tracey, what did he think the FBI interviewer would get Mueller to reveal?
- [17:25]
Tracy Smith
DA Pearson believes that Mueller is very manipulative. So he really wanted to bring in the best of the best, and that was this FBI interviewer. Now, the FBI interviewer has to remain anonymous, which is why we blurred his face in the Hour. But he specializes in this science based technique. And the goal was to see if Mueller would confess to more crimes, reveal his motivation, reveal whether he had accomplices. But, boy, did this require patience because Mueller would talk for hours. He would go off on unrelatable tangents. I mean, I think the first interview was eight hours. So can you imagine just sitting there trying to stay focused? I mean, just your rear end hurts after that time. That's a long time to sit there in an interview. But they hung in.
- [18:08]
Erin Moriarty
And I think when we do two or three hours, that's really long. I have to hand it to them. My big question, though was, did it sound like Mueller was telling the truth? Because it also sounds like he wants attention. He has these police officers, an FBI agent listening to him. Was he bragging?
- [18:28]
Tracy Smith
Well, he said that he had a religious transformation in prison, and so he wanted to be upfront about the crimes that he'd committed. And, you know, as we know now, some of what he was saying was indeed the truth when they followed up on it.
- [18:42]
Erin Moriarty
This is incredible, really. Mueller told a story about attacking a young couple at a campsite and then sexually assaulting the woman. He claimed that that was his first victim. You happened to meet that incredibly brave woman in the Hour when you sat down with her. She had asked us to call her Lynn, that is not her real name, and asked us not to show her face. This was the first time that she was speaking publicly about something that had happened to her 30 or so years ago. What was that interview like, Tracy?
- [19:17]
Tracy Smith
Oh, my goodness. I mean, you know how this is. I'm sitting down across from this Person asking her to tell me about the most horrible moment of her life. A complete stranger with cameras rolling. So it was incredibly emotional, but she was so strong. I wish you could see her face because she was just remarkably composed and strong. Her husband was sitting right off camera. This is the guy who was there when she was attacked. They've since gotten married, and you could tell that they've leaned on each other through these years. And you also could see the trauma that's weighed on her for three decades. I mean, think about this. She would go home at night and she would draw the shades. She couldn't have the windows open. She loved camping when she was a kid. She wouldn't go camping in a tent because of what happened. She wouldn't wear sandals or flip flops in case she had to run from an attacker. So for her to be able to share that with us was incredible. And we're so grateful that she sat with us to do that.
- [20:14]
Erin Moriarty
You know, Tracy, this hour really shows the impact on victims when they're not believed or listened to. Matthew Mueller was flown back to California to face charges for the two attempted rapes there. In January 2025, Mueller wrote another letter to Chief Borges indicating he had additional information, but this time he wanted to provide it to Denise and Aaron. And Denise and Aaron wanted to speak with Mueller in person, too, but investigators advised them to sit in another room and listen. Mueller and his attorney met with D.A. pearson, the FBI interviewer, and also Police Chief Borges. I'm curious, why did Denise and Aaron want to face Mueller after everything they had gone through with him?
- [21:02]
Tracy Smith
I asked Denise the same thing. Why would you want to sit with this guy? And she explained it really clearly. She said she felt like he had the power, obviously when he had her in captivity and even afterward, because of the way that the police, the media handled it. She felt like he controlled the narrative. This Harvard trained lawyer. Where did he go wrong? So she wanted to take that back. Investigators thought that Mueller may have wanted to further manipulate Denise and Aaron by getting them in a room with him. And meanwhile, Denise and Aaron really wanted to get to the bottom of whether he was acting alone and whether there were other victims out there. So I totally saw once I asked her from her perspective why she wanted to do that.
- [21:48]
Erin Moriarty
I know, but I think she probably would have been disappointed because he might have withheld that. I mean, I think the police were smart on this. And as you just point out, Denise and Aaron were convinced that they heard other people with Mueller the night of the attack. And I really believed Aaron when I was listening to him talk. And while Denise was being held in captivity, she thought she heard people, too. Is there any evidence that Mueller was working with more people?
- [22:16]
Tracy Smith
So Chief Borges won't rule it out. And you know, Aaron, like you said, he said, well, this guy is not Inspector Gadget. Like, how can he be three places at once? But Pierson told us, as of now, there's no solid evidence of other people. And we do have to remember that both Denise and Aaron were drugged and wearing blacked out goggles. You know, Mueller claims that he was able to make it sound like he was in several different places. He used a bunch of techniques to do that. The important thing that I thought DA Pearson said, is that because of the way that the initial investigation was handled, we may never know.
- [22:52]
Erin Moriarty
Oh, that is so worrisome. Although I don't know why Mueller would withhold that information, but it is worrisome. So finally, by the summer of 2025, Matthew Mueller was convicted of all the charges brought as a result of the investigations spurred on by Denise and Aaron, including his first victim, Lynn's case. We see at the end of the hour that Denise and Erin continue to speak to law enforcement and they're trying to change how officers interview victims and suspects. Can you tell me more about their advocacy? Sure.
- [23:26]
Tracy Smith
I mean, this is incredible. Denise and Erin are working with law enforcement. They're using this traumatic experience to help change the way that officers treat both victims and suspects. So they're collaborating with DA Vern Pearson. They're educating law enforcement about the science based interviewing that Pearson so believes in. And Denise made a point of saying, you know, this is not just victims, but suspects, that this aggressive interviewing can result in false confessions even as, you know, Aaron convictions. And I asked Denise and Erin what's the most important thing that they want law enforcement to learn from their story.
- [24:05]
Denise Huskins
We were hoping that by sharing our experience that whoever listened could take that with them. And if they confronted a situation that seemed out of the ordinary or something that's a little like, I don't know if I believe this, that they confuse, could pause, not rush to judgment and keep an open mind.
- [24:23]
Police Chief Nick Borges
We are fortunate that we're here together and we were able to talk about. But there are people who have been falsely arrested or wrongfully convicted, and their lives are basically forever changed. And we have opportunity to show and hopefully educate. A headline or a tweet or something does not give you the whole story.
- [24:43]
Denise Huskins
Another big piece is acknowledging bias and taking accountability. There's gonna be mistakes that are made. It's just. It's inevitable. And what matters is if you make a mistake, you acknowledge, accept it, and then try to learn from it and do something different.
- [25:03]
Tracy Smith
I mean, it's just remarkable. Now, Denise and Erin are both physical therapists by training, so it kind of makes sense that they want to help people. But still, after this experience, to say we want to change the system, I just find so powerful.
- [25:17]
Erin Moriarty
How is Lynn doing today?
- [25:19]
Tracy Smith
Lynn is great. At Mueller's sentencing, she read a victim impact statement, and she carries that in her purse still to this day, which just touched me so much. But she's doing great. You know, she and her husband played disc golf, and it actually makes perfect sense because she was scared to go outside after this happened. So they found this where they can be in a contained environment but still outside, and it's perfect for them. And she's actually able to go camping again. She's able to wear sandals again. All these little things, you know, that she wasn't able to do for 30 years.
- [25:55]
Erin Moriarty
I had never heard of disc golf. That's the first time I'd ever seen it in your show. Also, it's amazing that Lynn and her husband stayed together as a couple after the attack. And the same is true with Denise and Aaron. Were you surprised by that?
- [26:09]
Tracy Smith
You hear about people who go through trauma like this, and it can either drive you apart or keep you together. And clearly in this case, they leaned on each other. I also think that in both of these cases, they weren't believed, and yet the person next to them never stopped believing them. So of course, that would create some sort of bond.
- [26:28]
Erin Moriarty
Thanks for doing this story, Traci, and thank you for talking about it today.
- [26:32]
Tracy Smith
Thanks.
- [26:33]
Erin Moriarty
And thank you all for listening. If you like this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Pluto TV has thousands of free movies and TV shows. If I'm lying, I'm dying. Like Dream Girls, SpongeBob SquarePants and Ghosts Free. This is my Huzzah, Pluto TV stream. Now pay never. Pluto TV has thousands of free Movies and TV shows. You swear if I'm lying, I'm dying. This is the mindset free. This is the mantra free. This is the mindset mindset. With movies like Titanic, Dreamgirls and Gladiator, why you're not entertained? And TV shows like Survivor, SpongeBob SquarePants, the fairly odd Parents and Ghosts, Pluto TV is always free. Huzzah, Pluto TV stream. Now pay never.