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- [00:04]
Erin Moriarty
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- [00:27]
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- [00:54]
Ann Marie Green
$15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only. Then full taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com welcome back to Postmortem. I'm your host, 48 Hours correspondent Ann Marie Green. And joining me today to discuss the season Premiere episode of 48 Hours is 48 Hours correspondent Erin Moriarty. Erin, how many seasons has it been for you now?
- [01:26]
Erin Moriarty
Okay, I was trying to count and I think it's 35, which means. And isn't this your first full season? So you have a little bit to catch up with me.
- [01:35]
Ann Marie Green
All right, I'm working on it. I'm working on it. Still, with all those seasons under your belt, this is quite an episode. I don't know if you've done anything like this one before. It's the perplexing case of Ben Elliot. He murdered his twin sister Megan in 2021. They were both just 17 years old at the time. Now, Ben maintains his innocence. He admits that he stabbed his sister, but he says he was sleepwalking and he did not intend to harm her. So this is one of those episodes, Aaron, that throughout the hour, my mind kept on changing about whether or not, you know, I felt it was intentional. I felt that, you know, whether or not he was guilty, I just, I.
- [02:17]
Erin Moriarty
Couldn'T really decide, you know, Anne Marie, I'm with you. I was conflicted as well. When I first started on the story, I thought, well, that's a novel defense, you know, But I thought of it as a defense. But I have only gone 180. The problem here is our judicial, our criminal judicial system that is based on adversarial sides. The courts want to find guilt or innocence, guilt or not guilty. In this case, we know he did it. He, you know, Ben Elliot admits he stabbed his sister, but we don't know why or if he intended to. And the other problem with this case, which you and I will talk about is this is a young man who never shows a lot of emotion.
- [03:08]
Ann Marie Green
Absolutely. We will get into his demeanor. But before we even sort of get into the case, we'll just remind people that if you haven't actually listened to this episode of 48 Hours, you can do so. You can find the full audio version just below this episode that you're listening to in your podcast feed. Go take a listen and then come on back for this conversation. Okay. You actually have a pretty unique perspective here. You are a twin, which I'm just learning.
- [03:36]
Erin Moriarty
I am a twin. I have a twin sister. We are not identical, but we are very close. And so this case hit me hard. It was hard not to look at this case as a twin. I can't in a million years imagine hurting my twin. It's the person I knew before anybody. And in this case, there didn't seem to be any problem between these two people. So how do you make sense of that?
- [04:04]
Ann Marie Green
Yes, the prosecution argues that Ben intentionally killed his sister and that he wasn't sleepwalking, that this was just sort of an excuse, something that he made up. But they never really established a motive. And me as the viewer slash juror watching this, that bothered me.
- [04:23]
Erin Moriarty
What was so troubling about this case is that not only was there no evidence of a motive or a problem between these two twins, everyone that the prosecution talked to said that. That Ben loved his sister and loved being her protector. She was, she had been diagnosed as autistic and he, according to the witnesses, wanted to protect her. But here's something else to think about. They couldn't find any evidence on either one of the twins phones. You would think if there was a problem between the two, there'd be some of text trail. Another thing, this is a young man who used his phone all the time. If he was just going to use sleepwalking as a defense and excuse, wouldn't you think he'd do some research? They didn't find any. So I found this all so troubling because again, the prosecutors say he's a danger to society. That's why they charged him with first degree and fought to get him convicted of first degree murder. And yet there's no evidence other than the act itself, which is pretty awful, that he really intended to do this.
- [05:50]
Ann Marie Green
I Think that would have helped me as I was watching the hour if they could give me the why, even though they don't really have to. But the other thing that I kept on thinking about as I was watching the hour is just how much do you know about sleepwalking? I think immediately what comes to mind is sort of this visual of this person walking with their eyes closed and their arms out, sort of zombie. Like not, you know, somebody doing sort of complicated tasks. But I have to say I have heard some crazy things about people. You know, could be an urban myth, but I mean, cooking a turkey while asleep, walking and that, all that sort of stuff.
- [06:27]
Erin Moriarty
Well, you know, it's not crazy for someone to actually cook while they're sleeping. I learned that. So just so that people understand what it is, is there's a large category called parasomnios. And sleepwalking is one of those. So is sleep eating, or if you want to say sleep cooking. And it really happens. And it's more common than I realize it is. But crimes committed while you're sleepwalking is less common, although it does happen. Here's the real problem, Anne Marie. And it was a problem reporting on this. There are no. Usually no witnesses to somebody sleepwalking. And so they sometimes have to kind of guess about what happens during those episodes. So we have experts, because they were used in the trial, both on the defense side and on the prosecution side. And both sides agree that parasomnia, sleepwalking does occur. They also agree when it occurs, it occurs during a period of your sleep, which is non rem, slow wave sleep. And it's when you're almost like in a twilight zone between sleep and being awake. But then the experts disagree. And here's the problem. You have the defense witness saying that there are pockets of memory, and that's why Ben Elliot could remember stabbing. But the state's witness says there are no pockets of memory. The. The fact that he could remember stabbing his sister meant he was not sleepwalking.
- [08:14]
Ann Marie Green
And you know, what we're talking about here too, is not just sort of like stumbling around your bedroom, right? We're talking about a very violent act. Do the experts have any opinion on what might cause someone who's normally not violent to act out violently in their sleep?
- [08:32]
Erin Moriarty
Dr. Pressman, the prosecution sleep expert, said that something has to happen to the sleepwalker. Somebody has to interfere with their movement. But again, because in most of these cases, there are no cameras, no witnesses. They don't know exactly. We don't know what happened in that Bedroom. Did Megan wake up? Did she put a hand up to try to stop him? We don't know.
- [09:01]
Ann Marie Green
Dr. Pressman. He said something along the lines of, you know, he knew that he wasn't sleepwalking because he came out of it quickly. And I just sort of thought, how did he know how quickly he came out of it? Because there were only two people in that room. And it certainly wasn't the expert.
- [09:21]
Erin Moriarty
Exactly. He's claiming that the fact that Ben said, I remember stabbing her meant that he had come out quickly to have that kind of memory. Dr. Pressman says he shouldn't have any memory of it. The prosecution actually used the fact that Ben had some memory against him by saying that Ben had actually killed his sister earlier and had time to come up with a story and then calling 911. Again, as you point out, Emory, there were no cameras. There were no witnesses. We don't know, and the experts don't know.
- [10:04]
Ann Marie Green
So here's kind of like my journey with Ben. Right. Initially, I just thought, you know, his presentation is a little odd. And it starts with that 911 call. At this point, you've listened probably to hundreds of 911 calls. You know, sometimes people are frantic and yelling. Sometimes they are very measured and controlled. They want to get the information out. Ben had this soft, whispery voice. It just was a little odd.
- [10:35]
Erin Moriarty
Well, and it was odd to the prosecutors. That was part of the trial. In fact, the prosecutor imitated the phone call in front of the jurors and was whispering. And that's fair to an extent, because certainly when you listen as you did, Anne Marie, it does sound like he's whispering, and he may have been. But I also want to point out that when I met Ben Elliot in the J interviewed him, he is very soft spoken, and he doesn't show a lot of emotion. And what he said to me was that he wasn't whispering, that that's how he talks.
- [11:14]
Ann Marie Green
But then why didn't he scream out to his parents? That was the other thing that kind of bothered me. I thought, like, why is it that the parents are finding out what's happening, you know, when the, like, cops are showing up? Like, why wouldn't he say, oh, my God, help me?
- [11:28]
Erin Moriarty
Well, you know what, Annemarie, that is such a good question. And it's certainly what the prosecution pointed out. Like, why did he call 911? Why did he keep his voice down? He didn't want his parents to know, and that's possible. But can I just point out, here's where My experience as a twin comes in. So when you are a twin, whether you're identical or not, you have a real closeness. That is who you share everything with. And I just want to throw out that possibility that as a twin, he was calling 911 because he was thinking of his sister and then didn't think about calling his parents until the 911 operator asked him to. It's a possibility as a twin. I see that as a possibility.
- [12:15]
Ann Marie Green
I think the other thing that really surprised me about this episode is just how many people are familiar with sleepwalking. Because I kind of went through. It's nowhere close to sleepwalking. But my husband talks in his sleep. And when we first met, it would be sort of this mumbly stuff that I couldn't understand. But it's definitely progressed over time. But, I mean, one of the prosecutors was a sleepwalker. Her children, Jurors knew sleepwalkers. I was like, how many people are sleepwalking? And then I also thought, could that have an impact on, you know, whether or not they thought he was guilty or innocent? Because I don't know. Do you know if their familiarity with sleepwalking had an impact on how they decided this case?
- [12:59]
Erin Moriarty
I think, Emory, it was a double edged sword. In one hand. It helped the defense because you had jurors who knew that sleepwalking exists, and they heard during the trial that Ben seemed to have a history of sleepwalking. The other side of that sword is, though, that committing a crime while sleepwalking is very rare. None of the people who were familiar with sleepwalking knew someone who committed a crime. And I think that's hard for someone to believe that even jurors who knew that people sleepwalk to believe that someone could actually commit a terrible crime like this. They also heard testimony from Dr. Pressman who says that during sleepwalking you can't have conscious thought and made a big deal that in order for Ben to have stabbed his sister, he had to pull his knife out of the sheath. And Dr. Pressman testified that that was too much of a conscious thought. And yet you and I know that there have been cases where somebody has driven and then committed a crime while sleepwalking. And the jury acquitted that person of murder.
- [14:32]
Ann Marie Green
This episode is brought to you by cars.com on cars.com you can shop over 2 million cars. That means over 2 million new car possibilities, like making space for your growing family, becoming the type of person who takes spontaneous weekend camping trips or upgrading your commute wherever life takes you. Next or whoever you're looking to be. There's a car for that on cars.com visit cars.com to discover your next possibility. Imagine fast hydration combined with balanced energy. Perfectly flavored with zero artificial sweeteners. Introducing Liquid Ivy's new energy multiplier, Sugar free. Unlike other energy drinks, you know the ones that make you feel like you're glitching. It's made with natural caffeine and electrolytes so you get the boost without the burnout. Liquid IV's new energy multiplier, Sugar free hydrating energy. Tap the banner to learn more. Welcome back. Let's dive into the really chilling body cam footage when first responders arrive on the scene. Ben is giving Megan CPR compressions. His parents, Michael and Kathy, they are there. They are distraught. They are confused. They ask police what has happened to their daughter Megan.
- [15:55]
Erin Moriarty
Well, Anne Marie, at first glance, when you see that body cam footage and you see these parents asking and the police are saying, we're not going to tell you, it's, it seems cruel at first glance, but you have to realize that they're walking into that house not knowing what happened, who exactly was involved. They just know someone inside that house was involved. Maybe they all were. And so until they could really understand what happened, they did not want to share any information. They didn't want anyone in the house sharing stories, getting a story together until they could figure out exactly what did happen. It really makes more sense when you look at it from the vantage point of these investigators walking in cold.
- [16:40]
Ann Marie Green
It does make sense. I imagine for Michael and Kathy, though, as this whole thing sort of continues to unfold, they then decide that they're going to call a family friend who happens to be an attorney. Now, prosecutors use that decision a little bit against them, frame it like it's a very suspicious thing to do.
- [17:03]
Erin Moriarty
Well, and we see this over and over again in these cases. Anne Marie so the family wants to know what to do. Most of the time they've never been involved in a situation like this. So they had a friend who was a lawyer and in fact that lawyer helped them find out what happened to Megan. That's how they found out that their daughter had died. But then at trial, it was used again, the family by the prosecution. And we see that happening over and over again in cases. The prosecutors said that the family had conducted a cover up from the, and I'm quoting the get go, you know, from the very beginning because from the prosecution's viewpoint, if you have nothing to hide, why are you calling a Friend who's a lawyer.
- [17:55]
Ann Marie Green
So. So Ben's family, his parents, they're already going through this heartbreaking experience, but now part of the prosecution's narrative is. And they're involved in a cover up. Their head must have been spinning.
- [18:12]
Erin Moriarty
Can I just tell you, this was one of the most emotional interviews I've done with parents. As you can imagine, they have lost a daughter. They feared they'll lose their son. They, for the first time, I found out that they thought maybe he had schizophrenia. They really seemed, and they said to me that they really wanted to know what happened. So they were very upset with the idea that anyone would accuse them of a cover up. And they point out that Ben was willing to talk to the state's expert sleep expert, but that the state sleeps expert did not want to talk to Ben. That expert felt he had enough information by looking at the reports and the evidence in the case and did not need to talk to Ben is what he said to me. So the family was devastated with the claim that they were trying to cover up because that's not how they saw it.
- [19:13]
Ann Marie Green
The jurors really got to see Ben Elliot's police interrogation. I'm curious as to, you know, what they felt about his demeanor and what you felt about his demeanor because you spoke to him.
- [19:27]
Erin Moriarty
That's the hard part, Emery. In these cases, we are judging people by how they act under the worst moments of their lives. But we've never met those people before. So it's a very tough part of any criminal trial to try to figure out, how do you judge the demeanor of somebody? The Ben that I saw on police cam footage was very similar to the Ben I met when I saw him in the jail. He was a little more animated with me because apparently his grandmother was. Is a fan of mine. And so he did say to me kind of that his grandmother, under different circumstances, would be happy to know that I was the one who interviewed him. So I saw more of a open, talkative Ben. But through most of the interview, the Ben we saw in police cam footage was pretty much the same guy I interviewed. And his parents told me the same thing, that that is who he is. I did talk to him about his affect and the fact that he was talking about things that seemed so unrelated to what had just happened to his sister. You see him during the inter with the detective talking about, you know, he's just been taken from his home after stabbing his sister, and he's talking about taking his sat. That struck me when I saw it. And he said to Me that he had just shut down. He didn't want to believe that he had done what he had done to his sister. And he was trying not to think about it.
- [21:17]
Ann Marie Green
So, Aaron, the other thing that really jumped out at me, that bothered me, to tell you the truth, is that he calls his home, he calls it a crime scene.
- [21:24]
Erin Moriarty
Did know you.
- [21:25]
Ann Marie Green
Did you get a chance to ask him, why would you call it a crime scene?
- [21:29]
Erin Moriarty
Well, I did. And his answer was, because it was a crime scene. I mean, we hear him in 911 saying he's stabbed, killed his sister. So he clearly thought it was a crime. He said he knew that they would cordon it off. I mean, he kind of knew what the police would do. So he did not find the fact that he had used that term unusual.
- [21:59]
Ann Marie Green
So, you know, that was just some of what the jury had to consider. But there were other pieces of evidence that swayed them. What were kind of the big pieces of evidence for the jury?
- [22:10]
Erin Moriarty
Well, you point out demeanor was a big one, the number of stab wounds. Because the prosecution did make a big deal about it. And one of those wounds was very deep. And the prosecution said that that goes to the idea that he intentionally stabbed. The prosecution also talked to the jurors about the fact that according to the prosecution, there should have been blood spatter. She was stabbed in the neck. And the prosecution, and this is all just their theory, there was no proof of it. But the prosecution argued that the pillow that was near Megan had been used by Ben to keep her from yelling. And that kept blood spatter from hitting the wall. But Ben had said to use the pillow, but he says he did it to try to stop the bleeding. Near the end of it was during their closing, the prosecutors told the jurors, well, we have no motive, but you never know what goes on behind closed doors. And I think that really struck the jurors.
- [23:21]
Ann Marie Green
So the jurors initially were split seven to five, but then ultimately they all come around and it's a unanimous decision. Right. They find Ben Elliot guilty of first degree murder. I just thought like maybe a lesser charge would have been more appropriate like manslaughter or something like that instead of first degree murder.
- [23:39]
Erin Moriarty
Yeah. I should also point out, so when you say seven to five, it was seven people initially were for guilty and five for not guilty. When you see that these are young people and a young defendant, you might think, well, do you really want to do first degree murder? This is his twin. But what you have is a 17 year old teenager who's dead and you have two stab wounds. And I think the prosecutors, they believe he had the intent to kill her. And that's first degree, and that's why he was charged with that. And I should also point out with the jurors that even though there were five initially who thought that Ben might not be guilty, they all came around to a unanimous decision of guilt and were satisfied with that decision at the end.
- [24:28]
Ann Marie Green
Well, you say that we know that prosecutors wanted a sentence of 40 years, but this might give us a little window into what the jury was grappling with because a member of the jury asked for leniency. It makes you wonder.
- [24:45]
Erin Moriarty
Well, leniency, according to the juror, because he felt so bad for the parents. But I do want to leave you with this idea of what Ben said to me, which I thought was interesting. Ben believes that some of the jurors did have reasonable doubts, and he points out that the judge could have sentenced him to 40 years, but instead chose to sentence him to a much shorter period of time. And he said to me in if people really thought that he had killed his sister in cold blood, wouldn't they want him locked up for the rest of his life?
- [25:24]
Ann Marie Green
We'll remind people he got a prison sentence of 15 years. That makes him eligible for parole in 2032. He will still be a young man, 28 years old, if he. If he does get parole at that time.
- [25:38]
Erin Moriarty
And I do want to add, Emory, that Ben is appealing this verdict.
- [25:45]
Ann Marie Green
How are his parents and her parents as well? How are they coping? It occurred to me that they probably barely had a moment to sort of get over the shock of Megan's death and even begin grieving for her before they had to pivot and think about Ben.
- [26:04]
Erin Moriarty
I have not spoken to them recently, but I did speak with them this summer, and they are, as you can imagine, just devastated. When you speak with them, you can feel their pain. And they're a little bewildered to this day, wondering why there wasn't in their mind, more of an attempt to find out what really happened in the early morning hours to Megan. They miss Megan. They worry about Ben. They have an older daughter. And I noticed through the interview, they just held hands through the whole thing. And so I sat down. Oh, my gosh, you guys, you're getting through this together. And they said, we couldn't have gotten through it without each other. And that was very touching to me.
- [26:53]
Ann Marie Green
Absolutely. Well, this is unlike one that I've seen so far on 48 hours. I think you're gonna take the viewers on kind of a bit of a rollercoaster and I'm curious to see where everyone lands once they watch it. Thank you so much, Erin.
- [27:08]
Erin Moriarty
Thanks so much, Emery. I think we're gonna have this in our hearts for a while too.
- [27:12]
Ann Marie Green
Yeah. Indeed. Before we leave, Erin, you have another podcast. Can you tell us about it?
- [27:19]
Erin Moriarty
It's called 15 Inside the Daniel Marsh Murders. This is again, one of those cases that it's really hard to shake. This was not only a thrill killer, but he was just 15 when he killed two people that he did not know two strangers just to know what it felt like to kill someone. So it raises all kinds of of important questions about what do you do when you have a 15 year old killer who then is diagnosed as a psychopath? Do you keep him in prison the rest of his life? What do you do? And the impact on the victim's families? It's a very moving and chilling podcast.
- [28:05]
Ann Marie Green
So you can find 15 on your favorite podcast, Apple. If you like this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcast or on Spotify. The secret's out.
- [28:19]
Commercial Announcer
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- [28:27]
Erin Moriarty
A little lower. A return to comedic glory.
- [28:29]
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- [28:50]
Erin Moriarty
What are you saying?
- [28:53]
Commercial Announcer
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