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- [00:01]
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- [00:31]
Meghan Trainor
Meghan Trainor, Laundry retrainer Meghan Trainor.
- [00:35]
Ann Marie Green
You're tossing out my gunky laundry detergent bottle. Ooey.
- [00:39]
Meghan Trainor
It's got that booty, that juicy boom boom that go right alright. Arm and hammer power sheets.
- [00:48]
Ann Marie Green
Toss like this.
- [00:50]
Meghan Trainor
Cause I toss like this. I wash like this.
- [00:53]
Ann Marie Green
It's a no mess.
- [00:54]
Meghan Trainor
Laundry bliss.
- [00:56]
Ann Marie Green
Arm and hammer power sheets.
- [00:58]
Meghan Trainor
More power to you.
- [01:10]
Ann Marie Green
Welcome back to postmortem. I'm your host, Ann Marie Green. And today we are discussing the case of Patricia Spivey, whose husband Renard is a former sheriff's deputy. He was also known for playing a bailiff on TV. He was charged in 2019 with murdering Patricia in the home that they built together. So joining me now is CBS News correspondent Natalie Morales and 48 Hours producer Asena Bashak. Welcome.
- [01:39]
Meghan Trainor
Thank you, Anne Marie. Good to be with you.
- [01:41]
Natalie Morales
Thanks for having us.
- [01:42]
Ann Marie Green
So I should point out to everyone that we're actually recording this at a pretty high stress time for you, Natalie. There are several wildfires burning out of control in the Los Angeles area and not too far from where you are, Natalie.
- [01:55]
Meghan Trainor
Yes. And we're just a couple of towns over from the Palisades fire. And all around me, a lot of people have lost a lot. So my thoughts are with them. If you know, there are also some technical difficulties as well in recording this because with winds the way we've had them for the last couple days, if I freeze every now and again, I apologize.
- [02:14]
Ann Marie Green
Right. And you might hear the dogs barking.
- [02:16]
Meghan Trainor
In the background and the dogs barking because there are a lot of people in the neighborhood making sure things are okay.
- [02:22]
Ann Marie Green
Well, we're glad you're safe and let's cross our fingers that this gets under control and everyone else remains safe as well.
- [02:29]
Meghan Trainor
Thank you.
- [02:30]
Ann Marie Green
Just a reminder for everyone, you know, I say this every time. If you have not watched the episode yet, this episode of 48 Hours, you can find the full audio version of it just below this episode in your podcast feed. So go take a listen to it and then come on back and we will Talk. All right. What I think was really interesting about this episode is just how much security video you had from inside the home. I've always wondered who these people are that just run security cameras in their home all the time, in the kitchen, of all places. So because of this, we can actually hear the shooting, but we don't see the shooting. Patricia's family, they believe that she was murdered, but Bernard said that it was an accident. Was it a challenge for you all to make sure that you presented both sides of this story?
- [03:22]
Meghan Trainor
That's our job to do that, to present both sides of the story. I think what the challenge was for the authorities was to figure out who the real aggressor was in this situation. Who had the finger on the trigger when the gun went off. And that camera, by the way, right over the refrigerator. That's because Patricia Spivey's father was living with them, and he has onset dementia. So therefore, they always had the camera rolling just to keep track. His room was not far off from the kitchen, so that's why that camera was specifically placed there. But that footage gave us sort of a window into the moments leading up to what happened that night. And again, it comes down to we know when things happen, because you even hear the shots based on that security footage. But what we don't know is how that happened and who really had their finger on the trigger in those moments.
- [04:22]
Natalie Morales
There's another interesting fact about this case. So apparently, in Texas, if you're acquitted of a crime, your complete record can be expunged. Once Renard was acquitted, he did ask for that. So we didn't really have any access to court transcripts, court testimony, which we usually do, to do these kind of programs. So that was a big challenge for us.
- [04:46]
Ann Marie Green
And so you guys really studied the surveillance footage really closely. I know what sort of struck me, which has nothing necessarily to do with the case, was just how ordinary it seemed like the hours leading up to this were, you know, going to the fridge, grabbing a drink. Just. It's, like, very ordinary. What was unusual about the footage leading up to the shooting?
- [05:09]
Meghan Trainor
Well, you know what Renard told us, because he did agree to an interview, you know, after he was acquitted. Um, he thought that night there had been some tension building in the relationship. And also on that security footage, you can hear. It sounds like at one point where Patricia, before she went to bed, you hear in the background, Patricia said over and over again, as if she's upset with him about something, but we don't know what exactly. And so in that time something happened. Renard said he picked up her phone after she went to bed from her bed stand, went to the closet, looked at the phone, and that's when she confronted him, he says, with the gun at the front of the closet. And that's when he got very nervous because he knew it was fully charged and it doesn't have a safety mechanism on it, and if the finger is on the trigger, it can go off. So that's when he said he tussled with her to get control of the gun and the shots went off.
- [06:21]
Ann Marie Green
But this is one of my. The challenge that I had with his story is that it just seemed like there wasn't a lot of time. We see him go out to the kitchen to say goodnight to her. Then he, according to him, he's sort of rebuffed, and he goes back in and he says he waited for her to fall asleep. It just didn't seem like enough time had gone by.
- [06:41]
Natalie Morales
Yes. So we hear Patricia at 3:01am when she says it's the same thing over and over again. So there's something going on, like Natalie said, between them. And then 3:07 is when the gunshots are heard. So there's only six minutes from when we hear Patricia saying it's the same thing over and over again to the gunshots. So the prosecutors at trial raised this by saying, you're having a fight with your husband and in six minutes you're able to sleep. That doesn't sound believable.
- [07:09]
Ann Marie Green
Right. You can see why that would raise a little bit of suspicion. And then the surveillance cameras, they also catch moments after the shooting when Renard has called 911. We see him take a break from CPR to unlock the garage door. I want to play a clip of that 911 call. It wasn't part of the show, so this is new for people. When the operator hears his home security system disarming.
- [07:36]
Meghan Trainor
Are you in the bedroom?
- [07:38]
Ann Marie Green
Yeah. Sister disarmed.
- [07:43]
Meghan Trainor
Ready to arm.
- [07:52]
Ann Marie Green
Entry door.
- [07:55]
Meghan Trainor
Sir, we need to get back to your wife to continue the compressions. All right, ma'am.
- [07:59]
Asena Bashak
Just.
- [08:07]
Ann Marie Green
I mean, did he explain that?
- [08:09]
Meghan Trainor
So, Anne Marie. Yes. The operator is asking on the 911 call if he is in the bedroom, but he replies with yes, even though we see in the security footage from their kitchen that he is now walking to the garage, and he said it was to open the door for the first responders. So he's now removed himself from. From doing CPR on Patricia at that moment. And he didn't tell the operator that at the time, you know, and. And. And it's important to remember he himself had been shot in the leg. So we know that. That at that point, there was some trauma. And so he is giving her cpr. And he said he felt he needed to go open the garage door to allow the first responders to enter. So that's how he explained it to us. He was like, I. I did what I thought I needed to do to best get the help that she would need.
- [09:05]
Ann Marie Green
Yeah, that makes sense why he would be sort of groaning as much as he is because he's shot in the leg and now he's trying to walk, you know, to the garage. Um, this is what I'll say. I kind of went back and forth. And part of the reason why I went back and forth is because I actually found him very believable. Have you interviewed people who've been accused of murder before? And was he sort of any different or the same or what jumped out at you guys?
- [09:26]
Meghan Trainor
He genuinely seems to carry the burden of what happened on that night. And, you know, that he feels her loss. I mean, he says to this day, he still loves Patricia very deeply. And I think what, you know, is most troubling for him is knowing that it was his gun that was charged and on the nightstand that ultimately led to this tragic death. He did want to talk. He wanted to tell us his side of the story, and he wanted to, you know, I guess, somewhat clear his name, because with a lot of these cases, this happened right before COVID And Covid interrupted the legal process. So this case was put on hold for four years. So in the public eye, he was looked at perhaps as being guilty, even though he hadn't had his day in court yet. And he was eventually acquitted.
- [10:21]
Natalie Morales
I mean, it's a complicated case. Consultant Lisa Andrews told us. She was a former prosecutor in Texas, and she did tell us that there was just not enough evidence clearly pointing to either side.
- [10:42]
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- [11:12]
Asena Bashak
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- [11:45]
Ann Marie Green
Welcome back. Let us dig into some of the evidence in this case. The trigger of the gun that was used to fatally shoot Patricia. It was never swabbed for DNA. Why not?
- [11:59]
Natalie Morales
Dick DeGuerin, who was Reynard Spivey's attorney, told us that a crime scene technician at trial acknowledged that the trigger was not swapped for DNA because she was afraid that it would go off again. Now, Dick made a point that shows how dangerous this gun is. He also said the DNA swabbing was a bit sloppy, meaning the investigators used only one swab to swap the gun, but they didn't specifically swab the trigger. And when they used one swab to swab the gun, two DNAs came up, which was Patricia and Renard's DNA.
- [12:35]
Meghan Trainor
It seems like a basic necessity when it comes to figuring out whose finger was on the trigger. But it was his former service weapon. It was always right by the bed charged, which in itself is the problem here. You know, this was a Smith and Wesson service gun, and the design of it, it doesn't have a typical safety mechanism. And defense attorney Dick DeGuerin showed us how it could go off over and over again because it automatically recharges, which, you know, is so scary when you think about that. But again, we don't know. The defense argued that the state never proved whose hand, again, was on the trigger. So that really came down to being crucial at trial and presented reasonable doubt for the jury.
- [13:25]
Ann Marie Green
Yeah, I can definitely see that. So it was still unclear the amount of times that Patricia was shot, which I thought was surprising.
- [13:33]
Meghan Trainor
Right. We poured over the medical examiner's report with CBS News consultant Lisa Andrews. She looked it all over for us. That was key to this case, and the medical examiner's report ruled it was a homicide. But what was unclear was the number of, you know, entry and exit wounds. They couldn't determine the amount of shots fired. Was it two shots? Was it three shots?
- [13:59]
Natalie Morales
So Renard told us that he was shot first in the leg. The second shot, according to Renard, hit Patricia in on the left side of her chest. And then the third shot would have gone through her arm, exiting her arm and going into her right torso. But the medical examiner can't tell us the order of the shots, so we need to go by accounts of people.
- [14:23]
Meghan Trainor
Dick DeGuerin showed us with the actual weapon, that Smith and Wesson revolver. He reenacted what Renard told him happened on that night and the trajectory of the bullets. He kind of did this whole demonstration with me, showing how they fought over the gun, how he was holding her arm, and the way the trajectory of the bullet would have entered her arm, into her side, and then hit her chest. Also, the defense said the number of shots really didn't disprove that it was an accident, given that this is a gun that is charged and can continually be fired and keep going. The prosecution, though, was arguing that it's hard to believe that multiple shots are fired, that it is an accident. One more thing, though. What was interesting you mentioned in the hour is there was a fourth sound as well on the surveillance footage. It was unclear if it was another shot. The question, according to the state, was, could it have possibly been Renard shooting his leg at that time, a fourth shot, but there was no proof of that, and the sound was so indistinct.
- [15:37]
Natalie Morales
Their theory was that he was in a different part of the house. That's why the sound is different. But we'll never know. The state couldn't prove that was a gunshot.
- [15:48]
Ann Marie Green
So I want to talk about another person you interviewed, Patricia's friend, Ezra. He took the stand, had pretty damning testimony about their relationship. But also Renard, he told you in an interview that he had multiple phone conversations with Renard in the hours before the shooting and that Renard admitted to taking steroids and said that Patricia wanted a divorce. But at trial, the prosecutor did not present phone records to prove this. How did Ezra's testimony hold up at trial?
- [16:19]
Natalie Morales
Yeah, he did testify under oath to those phone calls. The phone calls were listed on the arrest warrants with times, and the state based a lot of their case on Ezra's statements, and I think that was a big factor in the case. During those conversations, Ezra tells Renard to get out of the house if things are that tense. And Renard says, I'm gonna show her she's not getting the house. This is all based on statements from Ezra. So the prosecution's motive was the house, but they just couldn't show the phone records at trial. The phone calls were made over apps, and they told us that they don't have the records. We found this out on location when we were interviewing Renard and Dick Degue. And I spent hours on the phone with Ezra prior to that. And I was surprised, and I was taken aback when I heard that this was news to me. So I arranged another meeting with Ezra. And I asked him, I said, were you truthful about these phone calls? And he said, yes, I was truthful. I did not lie. I wanted to tell them everything Renard told me that evening leading up to the shooting. Um, so he told me he was telling the truth.
- [17:35]
Ann Marie Green
So Ezra was the only one that I am aware of that spoke about steroid use. But when you talked to her cousin and to her daughter, did they also indicate that, you know, there were problems in the relationship to this degree?
- [17:48]
Meghan Trainor
The daughter talked about how Renard seemed to be controlling. Also, Patricia's cousin, Cybill shepherd, who she was very close with, talked about Renard's alleged controlling behavior. Patricia had this annual cruise that she would do with Cybill, and after a time, Cybil said it became increasingly more difficult because Renard was always checking on them and just controlling and not letting them have their fun. And Renard denied that. You know, he said, I let her go on the cruise. I let her. You know, she went on multiple cruises after we got married. So he denied any controlling behavior. Also, in regards to the steroid use, I asked Renard point blank, were you using steroids or were you using anything that altered your moods? We hear so much about roid rage. And he said he went to a doctor to treat low testosterone. He was prescribed pills and shots that he wasn't on steroids. So he denied that.
- [18:50]
Ann Marie Green
The jury deliberated for 12 hours over two days, found Renard Spivey not guilty. Well, it certainly surprised me, only because it doesn't often happen on 48 hours. Do you expect that viewers were also surprised?
- [19:05]
Meghan Trainor
Usually there's a more clear cut finish or ending to the story. In this case, he was acquitted. And I think the reason is because, again, jurors found reasonable doubt. Consultant Lisa Andrews again told us this all came down to the prosecution not proving their case in court. They didn't have enough evidence, and, you know, the jury paid attention. They did their jobs. They couldn't connect the dots in this case.
- [19:32]
Natalie Morales
Lisa Andrews told us the defense, in the end, had two good arguments for the jurors, and those were self defense and accidental shooting. So if somebody had a doubt about accidental shooting, self defense was another explanation that Dick DeGuerin and Michael DeGuerin presented in court. And Dick was able to Explain that there's no safety on the trigger. So it's really easy to fire this gun.
- [19:55]
Ann Marie Green
I mean, I thought to myself, I'm going to take a look at how many other cases this particular type of gun is involved in, because it seems like a particularly dangerous design. If you're trained, and he would have been, perhaps you can handle it. But I would think there's a lot of people who can't handle a gun like that.
- [20:14]
Meghan Trainor
Yes. You know, and it's interesting. I did. I did ask him, too, about that, because his training, you would think, is something that also would kick in, that when you see somebody pointing a gun at you as a officer, you know, law enforcement, you're trained to deescalate the situation. I asked him about that when he said his training kicked in because he saw her finger was right on the trigger, and he knew he had to get the gun out of her fingers because he knew that if there was any sort of pressure on that trigger, it would go off. And, in fact, that's what happened.
- [20:46]
Ann Marie Green
Wow. So you spoke to Renard's twin sister, Renee, and, you know, she said, there are really no winners at all in this case. Bernard's life will never be the same. Patricia, of course, lost her life. What was it like talking to Patricia's family and how are they coping, considering not only are they dealing with the loss of Patricia, but also this case did not turn out the way they believed it should have.
- [21:12]
Meghan Trainor
Yeah. You know, it's always heartbreaking when you cover these stories. In this case, though, looking at Patrina, that's Patricia's daughter, and she looks just like her mother. I mean, they look like they could have been sisters. And they had such a close bond, such a close relationship. And Petrina talked about how much hope Patricia had when she married Renard. Renard was her first true love, her first marriage, her first house that they bought together. I mean, she viewed this as sort of her happily ever after. So it's just such a senseless tragedy. And Petrina said she had not cried. And in the middle of doing the interview with us, she started to cry. And she was like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh, I'm crying. I think it was sort of cathartic for her, you know, having the resolution, even though it didn't go the way she thought it would go. She at least was sort of dealing with the emotions finally.
- [22:13]
Natalie Morales
And she did say that she was numb. She became numb after the shooting, and she wasn't feeling things the way maybe you would feel things after such a big loss. And she, she said I was numb for such a long time. And I think that breakthrough for her did come through. When Natalie was talking to her, it was heartbreaking.
- [22:35]
Ann Marie Green
Well, you know, you always wonder why people are willing to talk to us here at 48 hours. And I hope in her case it was therapeutic that this is the beginning of some sort of journey towards healing for her. But I was quite struck by the fact that she was caught off guard that there were tears.
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Meghan Trainor
Yeah.
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Ann Marie Green
And then what about Renard? How is Renard doing today?
- [23:01]
Meghan Trainor
Trying to pick up the pieces of his life too. As we said, he's mourning the loss of Patricia as well. He still says she was the love of his life. He's spending a lot of time with his grandkids, doing a lot with his church within his community. Renard is trying to turn what was a horrible tragedy now into to doing positive work. And he's volunteering most weekends for an organization that is near and dear to him called Hoodies of Healing. It's an organization that helps to feed the homeless. And so he's very involved with that.
- [23:30]
Natalie Morales
He's also trying to go back to acting.
- [23:32]
Ann Marie Green
He told me, really, because he was.
- [23:35]
Natalie Morales
On a reality show, justice, with Cristina Perez as a bailiff. So he's also, I think, trying to revive his acting career.
- [23:43]
Ann Marie Green
We'll see what happens. It was a really well told hour. You guys did an excellent job and thanks for joining us.
- [23:51]
Meghan Trainor
Thanks, Annemarie.
- [23:52]
Natalie Morales
Thank you.
- [23:54]
Ann Marie Green
If you like this series postmortem, please rate and review 48 hours on Apple Podcasts and follow 48 hours wherever you get your podcast. You can also listen ad free on Amazon Music, Wondry plus and the Wondry app or with a 48 hours plus subscription on Apple Podcasts. Thanks again for listening.