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Wondery plus subscribers can listen to this podcast ad free right now. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app today. True crime fans know the feeling when a story pulls you in. You can feel like part of the investigation. And with Audible, there's a lot to uncover. Listeners might like after you've gone By Margo Hunt this Audible original is a gripping thriller that follows one woman as she tries to solve her best friend's murder in the French Quarter of New Orleans. As an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog, including the latest bestsellers and new releases. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com 48hours or text 48hours to 500500 audible.com 48hours okay, most Americans think they spend about $62 per month on subscriptions, but get this, the real number is closer to $300. That is literally thousands of dollars a year, half of which you've probably forgotten about. Thankfully, Rocket Money can find a bunch of subscriptions you've forgotten all about and then help you cancel the ones you don't want anymore. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com wondery that's rocketmoney.com wondery rocket money.com wondery I was out doing my patrols. We just started our shift that day and I was driving down Sunset Boulevard and I received a call. A beige color car with no license plates following this little girl in Los Angeles in 1968, eight year old tally Shapiro was walking to school when a car pulled up alongside her. A Good Samaritan. A witness sees a little girl, a little eight year old Tally, get in the car, thinks it's suspicious, follows him and puts a call into lapd. Former Los Angeles police officer Chris Camacho reached the location and knocked on the door. I said, police officer, open the door, I need to talk to you. This male appeared at the door. I will always remember that face at that door. Very evil face. He says, I'm in the shower, I gotta get dressed. And I told him, okay, you gotta 10 seconds. Finally I kicked the door in. The image will be with me forever. We could see in the kitchen that there was a body on the floor. A lot of blood. They say a picture says a thousand words in that image of those little white Mary Janes on that floor with that metal bar that he used to strangle her with and that puddle of blood. It just looks like too much blood to come out of a tiny little 8 year old like that. There was no breathing. We all thought she was dead. Camacho began frantically searching the house for her attacker. Moments later, he walked back into the kitchen and witnessed a miracle. She was gagging and trying to breathe. And I thought, one for the good guys. She's going to make it. Clinging to life. Talley was rushed to the hospital. And it had it not been for that police officer Tali Shapiro would have died on Rodney Alcala's kitchen floor. We started searching the residence. There was a lot of photograph equipment. And all of us were amazed at the amount of photographs that he had there of young girls, very young girls. We found a lot of ID, picture ID of a Rodney Acala. He was a student at UCLA. The suspect, 25 year old Rodney Acala, had slipped through the officer's fingers. When I kicked in the front door, the suspect went out the back door. With Alcala in the wind, former detective Steve Hodel was grasping at thin air. But we kept coming up empty back then, you know, we didn't have a lot of the forensics you have today. He was a snake charmer. I went and talked to his professor at ucla. He says, Rod Alcala wouldn't hurt anybody. He's a great guy. He truly believed that, you know, and a lot of people did. Peter Van Sant reports. Rodney Alcala, the killing game. Rodney Alcala was born in San Antonio, Texas in 1943. His father. His father abandoned the family when he was young. At 17, Alcala enlisted in the Army. But there were problems. Allegations of sexual misconduct, a nervous breakdown. The army discharged him. The military realized in 1963 that they had him, that he was a sexual deviant. In 1969, the FBI put Rodney Alcala on its most wanted list. But finding Alcala was going to be no simple matter. Rodney Alcala. After raping and almost killing Tally Shapiro, he fled to New York. He made friends. He charmed people. He got into NYU film school. None of his fellow students suspected that their popular classmate had a double life, which had the makings of a film itself, a horror film. Three years after his attack on Tali Shapiro, Acala's dark side once again emerged. She had A beautiful face. She carried herself extremely sophisticatedly. His next victim, Cornelia Michael Crilley, a 23 year old flight attendant for TWA. I was living with her temporarily while she was getting her own apartment ready around the corner to share with another stewardess. Crilley had spent the day moving in when Boorstein came home from work. He was surprised to find her door locked and no one answered the phone. When her boyfriend was trying to reach her and was unable, the police came in a horrible scene. Prosecutor Melissa Morges was struck by the ferocious nature of the killing. She had been stripped naked. She was strangled with a nylon stocking, and there was a bite mark on her breast. Well, obviously the cause of death is strangulation. She's bound, she's held, there's something stuffed in her mouth, obviously to keep her from screaming. The police focused in on Cornelia's murder. But with almost 2,000 killings in New York in 1971, investigators could not close the case. They had no real leads. We didn't have the forensic tools that we have today, so they did what they could, but it never went anyplace, and the case just went cold. And it stayed cold for 40 years. Rodney Alcala wasn't even a suspect. After the murder. He changed his name to John Berger and moved to New Hampshire. He landed a job as a counselor at an arts and drama camp for girls. There, he made a lasting impression on the campers. Two girls went to their local post office and they looked and there was Rodney Alcala's photo on the FBI 10 most wanted list. And they looked up and said, oh, my gosh, that's Mr. Berger. They report it to the dean, he calls the authorities, they arrest him, take him into custody. I get a phone call from the FBI saying, we've got your man in custody. He's ready to be picked up. Police. Police in California were eager to charge him for Tally Shapiro's brutal assault. But her family had left the country with no main witness. Prosecutors had no choice but to offer Alcala a deal. Plead guilty to a lesser charge of child molestation, and register as a sex offender. He took the deal. But the judge's sentence stunned those working the case. He received one year to life, and the parole board let him go after 34 months, after what he did to Tali Shapiro. So less than three years later, Rodney Alcala was a free man again. I was flabbergasted, to say the least. It just amazed me. And Alcala had no trouble charming his way back into the swing of things. He was hired by the Los Angeles Times to work as a typesetter. He took photos at weddings, and he was a registered sex offender during all of that, and nobody ever checked. Even worse, he was chosen to be a contestant on the Dating Game. It's the Dating Game, the bachelor of its day. What no one knew was that Rodney Alcala was already a serial killer. Please welcome Rodney Alcala. From all outward appearances, Rodney Alcala was a handsome. I'm called the banana, and I look really good. Charming, smart young man. Well, I like bananas, so I'll take one. Number one. That's your number one. All right. That wouldn't hurt a fly. The woman who won a date with him ended up backing out, saying she found him creepy. Come on over here. Her intuition probably saved her life. Others would not be so fortunate. We'll never know how many women are lucky, because every woman that crossed that guy's path was a potential victim. T mobile 5G Internet keeps getting better. Boost your connection to harder to reach places with Home Internet plus and get Internet right where you want it. With wi fi that reaches the attic. I finally have a home office. Get a free upgrade to T Mobile Home Internet plus while supplies last. Home Internet plus starts at 50 bucks a month with autopay and check availability@tmobile.com Home Internet during congestion, Customers on this plan may notice speeds lower than other customers and further reduction of using greater than 1.2 terabytes per month due to data prioritization. After $20 bill credit plus $5 per month without auto pay, debit, bank account required, regulatory fees included. For qualifying accounts, $35 connection charge applies. 89% of business leaders say AI is a top priority. The right choice is crucial, which is why teams at one third of Fortune 500 companies use Grammarly. Grammarly is the right AI assistant for your team with top tier security credentials and 15 years of experience in responsible AI. Grammarly is how companies like yours increase productivity while keeping data protected and private. See why over 70,000 teams trust Grammarly@Grammarly.com Enterprise? It was 1977. Rodney Alcala was out of prison and living in New York. Bad news for the New York cops who already had their hands full. A homegrown serial killer known as Son of Sam was terrorizing the city. He struck again over the weekend. The killer's sixth victim. Police say they are nowhere near solving the case. By this time, the Cornelia Crilley case had been cold for six years with no suspects. Rodney Alcala was only in the city a week before Adding to the New York crime wave, his next victim, a 23 year old musician and artist named Ellen Hover. Ellen was a sweet, gentle soul. Anita Feinberg and Ellen hover met as teenagers. Ellen was a very dear college friend. We roomed together for some time. She never confused what she had with who she was. Ellen hover came from a prominent show business family. Her father owned the famed Hollywood nightclub Sea Rose. Her godfathers were Sammy Davis Jr. And Dean Martin. Her mom called me and said, anita, have you heard from Ellen? And I said, no. She said, think hard, nobody can find Ellen. And I didn't think anything of it until it hit the newspapers. Her family's high profile made the story front page news as the NYPD kept up the hunt for her. That detective did a great job for a missing person's case. There was a lot of calls, he did a lot of work, a lot of legwork. Detectives thought they were onto something when they found an important clue in her apartment. Ellen hover had marked on her calendar that she was going to see someone named John Berger on the date that she disappeared. Remember, alcala had been using the name John Berger, but at the time, the connection was never made. Her body wasn't found until a year later, buried on the grounds of the Phelps memorial hospital in Westchester, near the Rockefeller estate. Until they actually found her, there was always a glimmer of hope. Once they found her body, that was it. Ellen's body was so decomposed, police had to use dental records to identify her. Based on the autopsy, they declared it a homicide. There was a suspect in the murder, a fellow that they believed was the last person that she was seen with. Could that fellow have been Alcala? Ellen had written his alias, John Berger in her calendar. Alcala, meanwhile, had left New York and was on his meandering road trip back to California. He was constantly in predatory mode. That is behavior that involves hunting human beings and that's part of a serial sexual killer that is often as exciting as the actual homicide and sexual assault at the same time. Rodney Alcala was on the road. A 29 year old woman from Texas, Christine Ruth Thornton, was traveling through the west with her boyfriend. Her sister Kathy was 11 years younger. Chris was a free spirit kind of gal, so she always was up for anything. In the spring of 1977, Christine was heading to Montana with her boyfriend to pan for gold. And she had big news. She let my mom know that she was going to be having a baby. And then nothing more was heard. Kathy immediately feared the worst. Christine and her Boyfriend had a stormy relationship. She had been abused by him. We knew that. I always thought that he had done something to her. Soon after Christine disappeared, Kathy began searching for answers. She undertook a systematic effort to track Christine and her boyfriend's whereabouts that would last almost 40 years. Through marriage, motherhood, divorce, and a career. Kathy contacted police departments, federal agencies, hospitals, and kept copies of every phone call and letter. This was a letter I sent to the FBI. I contacted the Department of Health and Human Services. They say a check at this address failed to reveal any contact with Christine Ruth Thornton, the Social Security Administration. I contacted them asking if there was any employment record, and there has never been any employment history. You know, I think the message was kind of clear. Everything was, no, we don't know. We have nothing. Looking back through this, it's like, yeah, it was staring me in the face. She was not alive. Kathy didn't know the name Rodney Alcala, but one day she would hear more about the psychology of a sexual serial killer, now on Facebook at 48 hours. It was the spring of 1979. Rodney Alcala had been back in California for almost two years, and a 12 year old Robin Samsoe was enjoying the Southern California beach life we just lived to. To have fun. Bridget Wilvert was Robin's best friend. Everybody could be complaining about being bored, and me and Robin would find ourselves doing cartwheels and back walkovers. The other love of Robin's life was her mom, Mary Ann. She was probably the most loving child a mother could have. Everything she did, she did to please me. On June 20, 1979, Robin was going to start her first day of work answering phones at the ballet studio in exchange for lessons. But first, she planned to play on the beach for a few hours with Bridget. I could definitely see a gentleman with dark hair. I mean, he. He honed in on us like, really like a shark in the water honing in on a seal. And he goes, can I take your girls pictures? And Robin goes, sure. And all of a sudden, out of nowhere pops up Jackie Young, my neighbor. You know, she goes, bridget, is everything okay? Are you girls all right? And, man, he. He took that camera, turned his head down, and you could almost see like smoke coming off his dress shoes. He just. He was gone. Robin and Bridget turned to go back home, and Robin had thrown her beach towel and everything into her bag. And she's like, well, I'm gonna get going. And I go, well, take my bike and don't stop. That was the last time anyone saw Robin alive. Robin's ballet Teacher called. When she did not arrive for her lesson later that day, her family immediately called 911. It was probably the most horrifying time of all, you know, not knowing. Police continually questioned the one person they thought might know where Robin could have gone. Her best friend, Bridget. And I said, I go, it was the man, that man that took our picture. On July 2, 12 days after Robin last said goodbye to her friend and rode off on her bike, detectives found the body of a child. I said, let's go see her. He said, we can't do that. I said, that's my baby. Of course I can see her. Why not? He said, because it took us three days to identify her. I said, what's wrong with you people? How many little girls with long blonde hair disappeared that it took her three days? He shook my shoulders and tears were coming down his face, too. He says there was no hair. A fire crew conducting routine fire prevention maintenance found Robin's remains in a remote location more than 40 miles from where she was last seen. There were 12 days for the animals to scavenge Robin's remains. By the time the fire crew actually found her body, she was just bones. The pressure was on to find the killer. Bridget's description resulted in this composite sketch which was released to the media all over Southern California. His parole officer saw that and called the detectives and said, look, there's a guy that used to be on my caseload. You really need to take a look at him. His name is Rodney Alcala. It had been nearly 11 years since Alcala had left 8 year old Tali Shapiro for dead. But Alcala was easy to find this time. He lived with his mother in Monterey Park, a stone's throw from the mountains where Robin's remains were located. They learned that he had no alibi, that nobody could account for his whereabouts at the time. He was the perfect suspect. Rodney Alcala was arrested on July 24 and charged with the kidnap and murder of Robin Samsoe. Detective Pat Ellis said Huntington beach police got an unexpected tip when Alcala's sister came to visit her brother in jail. The conversation was being recorded. At one point, he mentions him having a storage locker in Seattle, Washington, that the cops don't know about. Says, do me a favor, get the stuff out of there, get it cleared out. But what Alcala didn't know was that police had found a receipt for the locker during a search of his home at the time of his arrest. They beat her there, okay, and they get inside and there's the motherlode. Hundreds if not thousands of these different images. And there are dozens upon dozens of these young women that in the pictures clearly are in positions of supreme vulnerability with Rodney Alcala. Police learned Alcala had rented the storage facility and moved his belongings there nine days after Robin Samsoe's remains were discovered. Buried under all this stuff was this tiny little silk bag filled with earrings. Alcala claimed those were his earrings. But when police showed the jewelry to Robin's mother, she recognized a pair of gold ball studs that she said Robin often borrowed. So at that point, those are all the nuts and bolts that you need for a successful prosecution. Nearly one year after Robin Samsoe's murder, prosecutors were ready. It was February 1980. Rodney Alcala went on trial. Over the course of two and a half months, there were almost 50 witnesses that testified. It was a very long, very difficult case. The jury convicted Alcala and sentenced him to death. It's a poor exchange for my daughter's life, but maybe it'll save someone else's by him being gone. But the relief would be short lived Today, in a 5 to 1 decision, the California State Supreme Court ruled that Rodney Alcala did not receive a fair trial. The jury had been improperly told about Alcala's prior sex crimes, including the attack on Talley. The decision would devastate Robin's mother. But the ordeal was just beginning. You know, there's only one perpetrator, that little stone. But the ripples keep going. And there's victims and victims and victims and victims. 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Learn more at K L A V I y o.com BFCM the Samsoe family was steadfast in the face of A second trial for the murder of Robin. They demanded justice. He killed my child. My child, you know. Six years after the first verdict, a clean cut. Rodney Alcala was convicted a second time, and again the sentence was death. We the jury find the defendant Rodney James Alcala guilty of the crime of felony death. That's the only penalty that could ever be rendered in a case such as this. Acala had been on San Quentin's death row since 1980. Now, with a second conviction and a second death sentence, he was prepared to appeal all over again. It was never really feeling safe that he was locked up because you always thought there was a chance he'd go free. In 2001, 22 years after he killed Robin Samsoe, a federal appeals court overturned Rodney Alcala's sentence for a second time, based on evidence he didn't get to present. There would be a new trial for Alcala, now in his 60s. For Robin Samsoe's family, it was unbearable. We've gone through a lot of hell because of that animal. A lot of hell. A lot of hell. The path to justice for Robin Samsoe would take almost a decade more. In New York City, 39 years since the murder of Cornelia Crilley and 33 years since Ellen Hover was killed, cold case detectives were finally able to identify Rodney Alcala as the killer of both women. The strongest link was the fingerprint. There was a letter that was lodged underneath Cornelia Crilley's body, and there was a fingerprint developed from the outside of that envelope, which was unmatched for many years. And finally, through the FBI's database, there was a match. It was a significant piece of evidence, but not enough standing alone. Equally incriminating was the evidence left on her body. There was bite mark evidence where he had bitten her breast. It's his dental impression is the one that's on her body. And of course, we looked at all of his other cases to see similarities in sexual murders he had committed. He decided we had enough evidence. In Ellen Hover's case, investigators now knew John Berger was Rodney Alcala, and he had been seen near the Rockefeller Estates where her body was found. I think she was abducted here in Manhattan and ultimately killed up there. We had a witness who saw somebody who looked like Rodney Al Alcala at that time period with a woman who looked like Ellen Hoover. The man was carrying a camera bag just like Alcala did. But the Manhattan prosecutors would have to wait for California's third trial for Robin Samsoe's murder. In Orange County Assistant DA Matt Murphy was ready to go to court when there was a stunning development. DNA LinkedIn Alcala to three Los Angeles murders. Jill Barkham, Georgia Wicksted and Charlotte Lamb. The killing of a fourth LA woman, Jill Parenteau, was also tied to him. Right at that moment, we realized that not only is Rodney Alcala a vicious murderer in our case, but in fact he is the serial killer that we always suspected him to be. In a highly unusual maneuver, the California prosecutors decide to try all five cases together. A bizarre looking Rodney Alcala would serve as his own attorney. On June 20, 1979, Robin Samso left Bridget Wilbert's apartment. There is no better forum than to be center stage in court as your own attorney and you cross examine the witnesses. You're like God in that courtroom. Alcala even called Robin Samsoe's mother to the stand. That was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do in my life, having him ask me questions. Desperate to impeach Marianne's character, Alcala confronted her about how during the first trial, she had reportedly brought a gun to court. She didn't deny it. I was going to shoot him right between the eyes if I could have gotten a shot. But then she felt Robin's presence all of a sudden. I smelled her shampoo and I felt this warmth in my hand and I couldn't get my hand out of my purse. For the third time, Robin Samsoe's family waited as a jury decided Rodney Alcala's fate. This time, there were four other families waiting with them. One of the many things that hurts me is that that was the last face she saw. And that bothers me because he's so ugly and he's so evil. When the jury reached a verdict, it was a relief to the families who had been waiting for justice for so long. The Samsos hoped that this would finally be the end. We the jury, find the defendant Rodney James Alcala guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree. Victim Robin C. Samsoe. Rodney Alcala Absolutely 100% deserves to die for what he did. In a separate penalty phase, the prosecution called to the stand a ghost from his past. My name is Tali Shapiro. I'm one of Rodney Acala's first victims and one of the only living victims. It should have stopped with me. Why in the world are there so many other victims when it was a known fact of what he did to me? Rodney Alcala, addressing the same jury that convicted him of murder, makes an unusual plea for clemency. Let me put the death penalty in perspective for you. If you desire to join in the killing of a human being, you and the families of the victims will have to wait at least 15 to 20 years while the case slowly churns through the appellate process. He wanted to play on Arlo Guthrie song Alice's Restaurant, and there's a part in that song where he talks about wanting to kill people, and he played that incredibly for the jury. I want to kill. I want to kill. I want to see blood, guts, and veins in my teeth eat dead bodies. I mean, kill, kill, kill, kill. Alcala's perverse closing argument did not sway the jury. We, the jury determined that the penalty to be imposed upon defendant Rodney James Alcala to be deaf. Rodney Alcala had been on death row for more than 30 years. Now convicted of five murders, it was unlikely he could win another appeal. With the California cases settled, the New York prosecutors were ready for him, but they were not expecting what would happen next. He came back to New York in June of 2012, and by December, he pled guilty. It was a surprise. It was a surprise that he pled guilty because he had denied every crime he was ever accused of. Manhattan district attorney Cyrus Vance Jr. Announced Alcala's sentence. Two concurrent prison terms of 25 years to life. For both families who had lost all hope that these cases would ever be solved, the pleas by Rodney Alcala and today's sentencing brings closure to painful chapters in their lives. The judge cried during the sentencing. And Martha and I have been in this business for over 35 years each, and I've never seen a judge cry during a sentencing. As was agreed upon, Alcala was returned to San Quentin's death row. I got a telephone call from Robin Samsoe's mother, and she said she was so grateful that we were doing this. It's such a comfort to know that regardless of what might happen to the California cases, if for some reason he should get out, he's coming back to New York, and he's going to serve 25 to life. Both the New York and California prosecutors are haunted by the question, are there other victims out there? He crisscrossed the country. West coast, east coast, east coast, West coast, crossed through a lot of states, and I'm sure there are victims in those states. They just have to be found. How come she hasn't contacted us? That's not like her when it comes to bras. We're done compromising. You can have it all. Beauty and comfort, support and breathability with belly breathe. Balibreate is a breathable and breathtaking collection of bras, underwear and shapewear that feel as good as they look. 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Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com wondery that's rocketmoney.com wondery rocketmoney.com wondery Rodney Alcala had been convicted of seven murders and was facing five separate death penalties. Kathy Thornton, who had spent the last 39 years trying to track down her missing sister Christine, had never heard of Alcala, but her son did. It would change Kathy's quest forever. The Killing Game Tonight's 48 Hours Mystery In 2013, Kathy's son had watched a 48 hour story on Alcala that led him to its website and a series of photos taken by Alcala of unidentified women. I got an email from my son that said, I saw these pictures. Take a look if you'd like. Kathy scrolled through the images. She kept stopping at one of them, a picture of a beautiful woman on the back of a motorcycle. I said, yeah, that sure looks like Chris. And then I saw her little toe, her baby toe. And that's one thing I always remembered about Chris was her little baby toe was different. It hooked. I just saw that toe and I said, oh yeah, that's Chris. Googling the name Rodney Alcala. Kathy's heart almost stopped. Kathy now believed her sister had been traveling with a notorious serial killer. Fearing the worst, but still wanting answers, Kathy submitted her own DNA to a national database of missing persons. If her sister's DNA was ever submitted, they could be matched. Hundreds of miles away, Jeff Schiemann, a Wyoming detective, was working on a very tough cold case. They referred to my case as Granger Greta, because it was an unidentified female that was found in Granger, wyoming back in 1982. There were a lot of aerial photos and photos from the scene when the body was found. It was a desolate area. County prosecutor Daniel Aramaspi recalled. His predecessors had tried everything to help identify the victim. The skull was intact, and so the Wyoming state crime lab was able to have an artist come in and use the skull as a form of recreating what his victim looked like. More than 30 years had passed without a lead. All Sheman could do was study the old files with a new set of the bones were found next to clothing. The bones had been pulled apart, presumably by scavengers, animals. She'd been out there about five to six years. It was the body of a 25 to 35 year old female. They also told investigators at that time that she was also approximately six months pregnant. Scheman was blown away when he found the Wyoming crime lab had saved skin, tissue and bone fragments. And all we gotta do is get the ball rolling with, send it to the proper authorities to start processing it for any DNA, specifically mitochondrial DNA, that's DNA from the mother's side of the family siblings would be revealed as a match. I honestly thought I would be 10, 20 years retired before I'd even receive a phone call saying they had identified her. Less than a year later, Jeff got the miraculous news. There was a match between Kathy Thornton and the unidentified bones. I believe there was a lot of luck that went into it, that went into this whole case. I believe that's what solved it, is a lot of luck. After 39 years of searching, Kathy found Christine. Her hunt was finally over, and the story of what happened to her sister began to unravel. During the summer of 1977, Christine split with her boyfriend and had the tragic misfortune fortune of meeting Rodney Alcala. Their trip through the lonely Granger prairie would be Christine's last ride. When you see that photo, there's no doubt that she was having fun. I think she just had no clue what he, he was thinking, what he was capable of doing. So I think you're happy until the point where you're not. And at that point, there was no escape. Where would she go? The location where the photo was taken to the location where Christine's remains were found were within probably just a few yards of each other. I believe that Rodney Alcala killed Christine Thornton shortly after that photograph was taken. But before he would indict Alcala for Chris Thornton's murder, Prosecutor Aramaspi wanted to interview him. In September 2016, he flew with the two detectives to California. Frail and in ill health, Rodney Alcala had been moved from San Quentin to the medical unit of Corcoran Prison outside of Fresno. When we first arrived at Corcoran, we talked to some of the security staff. They said that he was borderline dementia. Whatever his condition, he was still being treated like the dangerous serial killer that he was. We went through numerous doors, numerous gates to this peach colored prison cell that looked like something off of a horror movie. Paint's coming off the walls, flies buzzing around. Alcala's on a bed facing a wall. His feet were sticking out from underneath the sheets, and, you know, he had long toenails. We started pulling out photographs of the crime scene. He took two seconds to look at that photo, and he said, I know that area. That's my area. How Alcala reacted to Christine's photograph was something the detectives will never forget. It almost clicked like that with him, and you could almost tell that he was reliving that day. Eventually, he took the photograph, set it on his lap, and he used his index finger and just started tracing her body, tracing her body for probably five minutes. And eventually he set the paper down flat and he started tapping, tapping on the photograph of Christine right over Christine's body, just tapping the photograph. And eventually the tapping got louder. I got louder. He eventually looked at me as he kept tapping on the photograph. And at that point, I honestly thought he would provide us more information about Christine, but it was a game. Despite his age, his infirmity, his close to 40 years behind bars, Alcala was still the master manipulator he'd always been. He was very even keel, very. The only time he would show any type of fervor in his voice would be when we would point blank ask him, did you kill her? And he would say, no, no, you're crazy. You're stupid. And then when I asked him, was she alive when you left her? And he said, yes, she was alive when I left, that's all the prosecutor really needed to hear. The fact that he admitted he was there just cinched it for me if he could deny killing her all he wants, but the fact that he admitted, as far as I'm concerned, is a confession. I decided to charge him with first degree murder. There would be no extradition to Wyoming. He's been in prison since 1979. Why should we give him a trip? A good place for Mr. Alcala is in the bed we left him in. So Alcala was never tried for Christine's murder. But Kathy Thornton has finally learned what happened to her sister. Along with seven other families, she has the answer to the question none of them ever wanted to ask. How many others are there that, you know, did the same thing Chris did? I honestly believe in my mind, in my heart that there's going to be other victims. Seeing how arrogant he is, knowing how charming he apparently was back in the day, and knowing how smart he is, I wouldn't doubt it if there's 100, 150, maybe even 200 victims out there. I'm hoping that with this being back in the news that someone might recognize someone in one of those photos like we did. With his execution suspended by California's death penalty moratorium, Rodney Alcala died of natural causes in 2021 at age 77. Help identify other possible victims online at 48 hours. If you like this podcast, you can listen ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey@wondery.com survey. You don't believe in ghosts. I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone chilling stories of the unexplained search for haunted Canada on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. In November 1991, media tycoon Robert Maxwell mysteriously vanished from his luxury yacht in Canary Islands. But it wasn't just his body that would come to the surface in the days that followed. It soon emerged that Robert's business was on the brink of collapse. And behind his facade of wealth and success was a litany of bad investments, mounting debt, and multimillion dollar fraud. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondry Show Business Movers. We tell the true stories of business leaders who risked it all, the critical moments that defined their journey, and the ideas that transformed the way we live our lives. In our latest series, a young refugee fleeing the Nazis arrives in Britain determined to make something of his life. Taking the name Robert Maxwell, he builds a publishing and newspaper empire that spans the globe. But ambition eventually curdles into desperation, and Robert's determination to succeed turns into a willingness to do anything to get ahead. Follow Business Movers wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondry app.