The Search for Jon Benet's Killer

Summary

Podcast Summary: 48 Hours - "The Search for JonBenet's Killer"

Host: CBS News' 48 Hours, featuring correspondent Erin Moriarty and Alex Hunter
Release Date: December 23, 2024

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Introduction

"The Search for JonBenet's Killer" delves deep into one of America's most enduring and controversial murder cases—the 1996 death of six-year-old beauty pageant contestant JonBenet Ramsey. Hosted by Erin Moriarty and Alex Hunter, the episode examines the complexities of the investigation, the enduring suspicions surrounding JonBenet's parents, and the relentless pursuit of the truth by dedicated investigators.

Background of the Case

On the night after Christmas in 1996, JonBenet Ramsey was reported missing from her family's home in Boulder, Colorado. A bizarre two-and-a-half-page ransom note was found, leading to immediate media frenzy and intense scrutiny of her parents, John and Patsy Ramsey. The episode begins by recounting the initial police theories that implicated Patsy Ramsey, suggesting she might have killed JonBenet in a rage over her daughter's bedwetting.

Notable Quote:

Alex Hunter [02:14]: "JonBenet Ramsey, six years old, dressed for a beauty pageant and we still don't know who killed her."

Interviews with John and Patsy Ramsey

John and Patsy Ramsey have consistently maintained their innocence. Now in their 80s, they reflect on the devastating impact the case has had on their lives. Patsy expresses a heartfelt desire to clear their family's name for the sake of their children and grandchildren.

Notable Quotes:

Patsy Ramsey [03:06]: "There is an answer."

John Ramsey [05:37]: "They are wrong. I don't know what else to say. How else do you say no, except no? No means no. Come on, come on."

Police Interrogations and Public Perception

The podcast reveals newly obtained police interrogation tapes from 1998, which had never been made public until this episode. These tapes showcase the pressure the Ramsey family faced from Boulder authorities, who were convinced of their guilt despite a lack of concrete evidence. The correspondents highlight how relentless media sensationalism and police pressure influenced public opinion, portraying the Ramsays as guilty in the court of public opinion.

Notable Quotes:

Alex Hunter [08:40]: "Both of them."

John Ramsey [09:05]: "I didn't put that there. Okay? I did not put the bowl there. I would not do this set up like this."

Investigator Lou Smit's Perspective

A central figure in this episode is retired homicide detective Lou Smit, who offers a critical perspective on the investigation. Initially believing the Ramsays were responsible, Smit's investigation led him to doubt the official narrative. He argues that the brutality of JonBenet's murder—evidenced by the use of a garrote and signs of sexual assault—strongly suggests the involvement of an intruder rather than a parent.

Notable Quotes:

Lou Smit [23:08]: "John Ramsey came through very, very sincere."

Lou Smit [24:20]: "If it's not a stun gun, I'd like to know what it is."

The Intruder Theory

Smit posits that JonBenet was murdered by an intruder, based on the nature of her injuries and the lack of DNA evidence linking the Ramsays to the crime scene. He emphasizes discrepancies such as undigested pineapple found in JonBenet's stomach and fingerprints on the pineapple bowl, which the Ramsays deny handling. Smit also critiques the ransom note's authenticity, questioning why an intruder would use household items to compose it.

Notable Quotes:

Lou Smit [30:07]: "I don't think pineapple, okay? So I don't know how it got in her stomach."

Lou Smit [33:24]: "The person who did this, if we're right, he's still out there."

DNA Evidence and Its Implications

Advancements in DNA technology have been pivotal in re-examining the case. The Ramsey family's DNA did not match any of the foreign DNA found under JonBenet's fingernails or in her clothing, effectively eliminating them as suspects. Despite this, Boulder police have maintained their belief in the family's guilt, partly due to psychological pressure tactics aimed at eliciting a confession.

Notable Quotes:

Patsy Ramsey [27:25]: "Absolutely. Blood, hair, DNA, everything. We've given them everything they've asked for."

John Ramsey [27:37]: "If our DNA matched anything significant, they would have arrested us in a New York minute."

New Leads and the Role of Private Investigators

The episode highlights the efforts of private investigators Ollie Gray and John San Agustin, who continued to pursue leads long after official investigations stalled. Their focus shifted to potential intruders, including Gary Oliva, a convicted sex offender with a history of violent behavior who lived near the Ramsey home at the time of JonBenet's murder.

Notable Quotes:

Patsy Ramsey [37:07]: "The Ramsey home is what, 10 houses?"

Alex Hunter [38:00]: "Did you hurt or kill JonBenet Ramsey?"

Ongoing Investigations and Hope for Resolution

Despite decades of investigation, the case remains unsolved. The Ramsey family, now grieving deeply after Patsy Ramsey's death in 2006, continues to seek justice. John Ramsey remains hopeful that modern DNA analysis and genealogical research may eventually identify the true culprit. The Boulder Police Department, however, maintains that all leads are being actively pursued, though critics argue that significant opportunities to solve the case have been missed.

Notable Quotes:

Patsy Ramsey [42:22]: "I think if they do that and if we're successful getting a sample in the right format and then do the genealogy research, I'm 80% confident it could be solved."

Alex Hunter [39:10]: "Don't you?"

Conclusion

"The Search for JonBenet's Killer" presents a comprehensive examination of one of America's most perplexing crimes. Through interviews, previously unheard interrogation tapes, and insights from seasoned investigators like Lou Smit, the episode underscores the enduring quest for justice and the profound impact the case has had on all involved. While the passage of time has obscured many details, the pursuit to uncover the truth remains unwavering.

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Note: This summary focuses solely on the substantive content of the episode, excluding advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections as per the instructions.

Transcript

[Erin Moriarty]

Wondery subscribers can listen to this podcast.

[Alex Hunter]

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[Erin Moriarty]

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[Alex Hunter]

Some stories have a way of sticking with you. For me, it's the 48 hour series Murder in the Orange Grove. But Audible has a best of 2024 list that's packed with unforgettable listens you won't stop thinking about. Check out Framed. It's one of Audible's top picks and an astonishing true story of wrongful convictions that keeps you hooked for from start to finish. Whether you're into thrillers, memoirs, or even romance, there's something for everyone. Head over to audible.com 48hours and discover all the year's best waiting for you. That's audible.com 48 hours audible. There's more to imagine when you listen.

[Lou Smit]

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[Erin Moriarty]

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[Alex Hunter]

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[Alex Hunter]

911 emergency police. What's going on there, man?

[John Ramsey]

We are kidnapping.

[Alex Hunter]

Explain to me what's going on.

[John Ramsey]

Okay, there's a note left and our daughter's gone.

[Alex Hunter]

A note was left and your daughter is gone.

[Erin Moriarty]

How old is your daughter?

[John Ramsey]

Six years old.

[Erin Moriarty]

She's gone.

[John Ramsey]

Six years old.

[Alex Hunter]

She is forever frozen in time. JonBenet Ramsey, six years old, dressed for a beauty pageant and we still don't know who killed her. The day after Christmas in 1996, JonBenet was reported missing with a rambling ransom note left at the scene. Several hours later, she was found dead in her own home, bludgeoned and strangled. It was a media sensation. Suspicion fell on her parents, John and Patsy Ramsey. The couple was never charged, but early on, there was a police theory that Patsy Ramsey may have killed her daughter in a fit of rage over bedwetting and then covered it up. Now in his 80s, John Ramsey is still trying to clear his and Patsy's names.

[Patsy Ramsey]

Finding the killer isn't going to change my life at this point, but it will change the lives of my children and my grandchildren. This cloud needs to be removed from our family's head and this chapter closed for their benefit. So there is an answer.

[Alex Hunter]

I'll have more from that interview later. But first, a time capsule. A look back at how 48 Hours covered the story in 2002.

[John Ramsey]

If our DNA matched anything significant, they would have arrested us in a New York minute.

[Erin Moriarty]

Take a look at this.

[John Ramsey]

I did not kill my child.

[Alex Hunter]

48 Hours Investigates has obtained the police interrogation tapes of John and Patsy Ramsey.

[Erin Moriarty]

Never made public until tonight.

[John Ramsey]

I don't give a blind flip how scientific it is. Go back to the damn drawing board.

[Alex Hunter]

Erin Moriarty heads up our six month investigation.

[Erin Moriarty]

I don't think the Ramses did it. And I think they ought to start looking for people that did 48 hours investigates searching for a killer.

[Patsy Ramsey]

She was the spark plug of our family because of this zest that she had. She just kept things alive and hopping. It's not the same without her.

[John Ramsey]

Why is it so hard for people to understand that we love this child with everything in our being? We would never touch a hair on the head of one of our children. I mean, it just is inconceivable to me.

[Alex Hunter]

Their faces are instantly recognizable. But John and Patsy Ramsay are famous in a way no one would want. Although they've never been publicly called suspects or charged with the 1996 death of their daughter JonBenet, they are resigned to a painful reality.

[Patsy Ramsey]

We could find the killer tomorrow. He could be arrested, convicted and, you know, jailed and there'd still be 20% of the population would think that we had something to do with it.

[Alex Hunter]

Did your daughter have a bedwetting incident that night? Did you get up? Did you get angry and did you hurt her?

[John Ramsey]

No, I did not.

[Alex Hunter]

What is your reaction when, you know, many people think that's what you did?

[John Ramsey]

They are wrong. I don't know what else to say. How else do you say no, except no? No means no. Come on, come on.

[Alex Hunter]

Come on, Mom. Over the last several months, we have spent a great deal of time with the Ramses, these favorite villains of the tabloids.

[Patsy Ramsey]

Those big old tires make this hard.

[Alex Hunter]

To turn and have seen them in a way few others have.

[Patsy Ramsey]

Fishing box that hadn't been used in a long time.

[Alex Hunter]

On this day, just this past summer, old flight bag. John and Patsy Ramsey are moving.

[John Ramsey]

Life has never been the same and it has basically ruined us financially and emotionally and everything else. So we're scaling back. This is my wedding dress.

[Alex Hunter]

They are selling their million dollar home in Atlanta and moving to a smaller townhouse just down the road. John Ramsey, once the head of a billion dollar software company, hasn't worked for four years. While Patsy has been quite literally fighting for her life.

[John Ramsey]

This is my self portrait. Here's my broken heart, my tears in.

[Alex Hunter]

A rare unguarded moment.

[John Ramsey]

I thought I would paint during my cancer treatment, but I was just so sick. I couldn't.

[Alex Hunter]

Without her makeup, without her wig, without even her eyebrows drawn in. You can clearly see the damage left by the return of her cancer. How did you find out?

[John Ramsey]

I was back in February for my annual checkup.

[Alex Hunter]

Nine years ago, Patsy learned she had stage four ovarian cancer. She made what she hoped was a full recovery. But earlier this year, she again went through debilitating chemotherapy. You lost your hair.

[John Ramsey]

Yes, it's growing back. My eyebrows are growing back. It all comes out. But you know what? That's very little thing to worry about.

[Alex Hunter]

In fact, Patsy Ramsey has much bigger concerns. Almost from the moment the body of their six year old daughter JonBenet was discovered. Boulder police believe John and Patsy killed their daughter and then staged a kidnapping, complete with a rambling 2 1/2 page ransom note to cover it up.

[Patsy Ramsey]

They've never investigated this case other than to investigate the family. They have never investigated this case.

[Alex Hunter]

Police say they haven't ruled out other theories. To this day, the Ramses remain the prime suspects. As you will see in this videotape obtained exclusively by 48hours, you have not.

[Erin Moriarty]

Classified any individual as a suspect publicly. Correct.

[Alex Hunter]

While testifying under oath in a civil case just last November, Boulder Police Chief Mark Bechner admitted what he had never before said publicly.

[Erin Moriarty]

Internally, John and Patsy are considered suspects.

[Alex Hunter]

Both of them.

[Erin Moriarty]

Yes. Are considered to have probably been involved in the death of their daughter. Probability?

[John Ramsey]

Yes.

[Alex Hunter]

Why do you think you remain probably the prime suspect in the eyes of the Boulder police?

[John Ramsey]

I asked Mark Beckner that I came closer to him in the face than I am to you, Aaron. And I said, tell me what it is that makes you think I killed my beautiful precious child. And he said, well. Well, it's just a lot of little things I think he really doesn't know.

[Alex Hunter]

But because police didn't have enough evidence, sources within the investigation tell 48 Hours the police tried to psychologically break the Ramses, hoping one or both would confess.

[Patsy Ramsey]

But it was a strategy that was put in place to bring immense pressure on us to break us.

[Alex Hunter]

That strategy by some in the department, claims John Ramsey, included a relentless campaign of leaks Fed mostly to the nation's tabloids. That had a devastating effect on public opinion.

[Erin Moriarty]

They convinced the public of guilt.

[Alex Hunter]

Lynn Wood is John and Patsy Ramsey's attorney.

[Erin Moriarty]

You couldn't go to buy groceries for your family without passing headlines that said that John Ramsey had molested his first daughter. Absolutely false headlines that John and Patsy Ramsey were pornographers. Absolutely false headlines that they were devil worshipers. Absolutely false.

[Alex Hunter]

The Ramseys believe that the Boulder police still to this day continue to ignore evidence pointing to other suspects.

[Patsy Ramsey]

It's frustrating. It's disappointing. It makes me angry.

[Alex Hunter]

You say it makes you angry, but you don't seem angry. Do you think that's also hurt you in the eyes of the public?

[Patsy Ramsey]

Well, we're not soap opera actors. I mean, I suppose if I was an actor, I could act really angry, but I'm not. That's who I am, is what you see. And I'm angry. This is angry for me.

[Alex Hunter]

Angry because John Ramsey says a killer or killers remain free.

[Patsy Ramsey]

What I do know is that we didn't kill our daughter. So let's look at the rest of the picture, guys. Next on 48 Hours Investigates.

[John Ramsey]

My life has been hell from that day forward.

[Alex Hunter]

The police interrogation of the Ramses you've never seen before.

[Erin Moriarty]

Today's date is. Today's date is June 23, 1998. June 1998. Broomfield Police Department. Right. At the time, it was approximately 9:04.

[Alex Hunter]

A year and a half after JonBenet was murdered. John and Patsy Ramsey, sitting in separate rooms at the same time were questioned by Boulder authorities in a Colorado police station. These tapes have never before been seen publicly.

[Erin Moriarty]

There's been a lot of speculation by a lot of people that maybe you didn't know anything about the murder. Maybe Patsy did.

[Alex Hunter]

Questioning John is Lou Smit, a homicide detective then working for the Boulder DA's office.

[Erin Moriarty]

It's preposterous.

[Patsy Ramsey]

Patsy loves both her children dearly, but frankly, she and JonBenet were extremely close.

[Erin Moriarty]

A Christmas morning photo of the kids.

[Alex Hunter]

Detective Tom Haney questioned Patsy, who at the time was taking medication for both anxiety and depression.

[Erin Moriarty]

If I told you right now that we have trace evidence that appears to link you to the death of JonBenet.

[John Ramsey]

What would you tell me that is totally impossible? Go retest.

[Erin Moriarty]

How is it impossible?

[John Ramsey]

I did not kill my child. I didn't have a thing to do with it.

[Erin Moriarty]

And I'm not talking, you know, somebody's guess or some rumor or some story.

[John Ramsey]

I don't care what you're talking about.

[Erin Moriarty]

I'm talking about scientific evidence.

[John Ramsey]

I don't give a flying flip how scientific it is. Go back to the damn drawing board. I didn't do it. John Ramsey didn't do it. And we didn't have a clue of anybody who did do it. So we all got to start working together from this day forward to try to find out who the hell did it.

[Alex Hunter]

48 Hours Investigates has acquired these tapes, hours upon hours of footage that take you inside the investigation. While the tapes show how strange prosecutors believe John and Patsy Ramsey were responsible for the death of their daughter, frankly, there isn't a lot of physical evidence that links them. So questioners looked for inconsistencies and focused on minute details from the crime scene.

[Erin Moriarty]

What have you heard about pineapple?

[Patsy Ramsey]

Well, we were asked, did John Bennett eat pineapple? Because apparently it was found in her system. I think part of the question was.

[Alex Hunter]

What did she eat any day when she got home?

[Patsy Ramsey]

I'm sure she didn't because she was absolutely sound asleep.

[Alex Hunter]

The Ramseys told police that JonBenet had gone straight to bed that night and had not eaten at home. But autopsy results did find undigested pineapple in JonBenet's stomach. And police discovered fingerprints on a bowl of pineapple left in the family's dining room on the morning of the murder.

[John Ramsey]

I didn't put the bowl there. Okay? I did not put the bowl there. I would not do this set up like this.

[Erin Moriarty]

Okay, then let's go. Go back to your line of reasoning here. If they weren't. Now talk to me. Look at me. If they're not yours and they're not John's, then they would be somebody else's. But now I'm telling you, they're not somebody else's. Those prints belong to one of the two of you?

[John Ramsey]

They did. You're sure? Well, I agree. I do not put that there.

[Alex Hunter]

The fingerprints on the bowl are Patsy's, according to police, suggesting that she's the one who gave the fruit to her daughter. But if Patsy did give it to JonBenet and is lying about it, then investigators wondered, could she be lying about everything?

[Erin Moriarty]

You know, sometimes the simplest, most obscure little thing can be so significant. Right.

[John Ramsey]

I do not think pineapple, okay? So I don't know how it got in her stomach. I don't know where this fall of pineapple came from. I can't recall putting that there.

[Alex Hunter]

After three days of questioning, the interrogation in 1998 ended. And even though the Ramseys were not indicted, Boulder authorities continued to believe they were guilty. So In August of 2000 prosecutors flew to Atlanta, where the Ramseys were living, asking to see and hear new evidence. 48 hours has also acquired those tapes.

[Erin Moriarty]

If ever there were going to be an intruder on trial, the defense is going to be that you did it. Remember that.

[Patsy Ramsey]

I remember that, but I'm not here to prove my innocence. I'm here to find the killer of my daughter.

[Alex Hunter]

With John, prosecutors asked questions, mostly about leads he had uncovered on other suspects. But with Patsy, interrogators were more accusatory, suggesting they had new evidence. Clothing fibers that would tie her directly to the murder.

[Erin Moriarty]

You were shown photographed wearing a red coat.

[John Ramsey]

It's kind of a black and red.

[Erin Moriarty]

And gray fleece, cut more like a blazer, though.

[John Ramsey]

It's like a pea coat.

[Alex Hunter]

Bruce Levin from the Boulder District Attorney's office led the questioning.

[Erin Moriarty]

This is Ramsey. I have scientific evidence from forensic scientists that say that there's fibers in the paint tray that match your red jacket.

[Alex Hunter]

The paint tray is significant because a brush from it, along with some rope, was used to strangle and sexually abuse JonBenet.

[Erin Moriarty]

We believe that fibers from her jacket were found in the paint tray, were found tied into the ligature found on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket that she's wrapped in, were found on the duct tape that's found on her mouth. I have no evidence from any scientist to suggest that those fibers are from any source other than your red jacket. Well, but, yeah, that's. Come on. I mean, what other sources did they test?

[Alex Hunter]

Patsy's attorney, Lin Wood, asked prosecutors to produce the evidence. When they wouldn't, he refused to let Patsy go on the record.

[Erin Moriarty]

Red and black jacket.

[Alex Hunter]

But she did go on the record with us. What do you think about these fibers?

[John Ramsey]

After John discovered the body and she was brought to the living room, when I laid eyes on her, I knelt down and hugged her. But I was. Had my whole body on her body. My sweater fibers or whatever I had on that morning are going to transfer to her clothing.

[Alex Hunter]

In all the questioning, the prosecutors focused more on Patsy than John, following their belief that she was the killer.

[Erin Moriarty]

JonBenet got up and somebody in that house, legally, lawfully in that house, one of the three of you also happens to be up or gets up because she makes noise and there's some discussion or something happens, there's an accident, somebody.

[John Ramsey]

You're going down the wrong path, buddy.

[Alex Hunter]

Okay?

[Erin Moriarty]

Somebody accidentally or somebody gets upset over bedwetting. That's one of the things that's been proposed, okay?

[John Ramsey]

If she got up in the night and ran into somebody. It was somebody there that wasn't supposed to be there. I don't know what transpired after that, whether it was an accident, intentional, premeditated or whatnot. But it was not one of her three family members that were also in that house. Period.

[Alex Hunter]

End of statement. These tapes don't always show the Ramses at their best, but remarkably, it was the Ramseys who made them available, saying they want all the information on this case out in the open. As for the Boulder police and prosecutors, they denied repeated requests from 48 Hours to discuss these tapes or any of the issues we're raising tonight. Their only comment on the Ramsey murder investigation is no comment.

[John Ramsey]

I mean, I appreciate being here. I appreciate it. It's very hard to be here, but it's. It is a damn sight harder to be sitting at home in Atlanta, Georgia, wondering every second of every day what you guys are doing out here. You know, have you found anything? Are we any closer? Is the guy out here watching my house? You know, is my son safe? My life has been hell from that day forward and I want nothing more than to find out who is responsible for this.

[Erin Moriarty]

You just saw this man interrogate the Ramses. As a detective, I'm looking for clues.

[Patsy Ramsey]

Wait until you hear what he has.

[Erin Moriarty]

To say about the case. Now, they may not like what I say, but I'm going to say it.

[Alex Hunter]

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[Erin Moriarty]

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[Alex Hunter]

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[Erin Moriarty]

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[Alex Hunter]

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[Erin Moriarty]

Together we go further explore ways to [e-mail] podcast. Behind the Bright lights and adrenaline of pro sport is an equally exciting world of negotiations and deal making. That's what we cover each week on our podcast the Deal. I'm Alex Rodriguez, former baseball player turned business executive. And I'm Jason Kelly, chief correspondent for Bloomberg Originals. Over the next couple months, we'll hear from all stars like Jay Williams. I want to be an owner one day. Billie Jean King, learn the business and so many more. Listen to the Deal wherever you get your podcast.

[Alex Hunter]

100 miles away from where JonBenet Ramsey was murdered in a modest home in Colorado Springs. How often do you think about this case now?

[Erin Moriarty]

Probably every day.

[Alex Hunter]

67 year old Lou Smit works every day alone trying to find her killer.

[Erin Moriarty]

I Keep a picture of her in my wallet.

[Alex Hunter]

You have JonBenet in your wallet?

[Erin Moriarty]

I keep it all the time.

[Alex Hunter]

This is the same Lou Smith you saw interrogating John Ramsey back in 1998.

[Erin Moriarty]

I concentrate my investigation on you.

[Alex Hunter]

A veteran detective.

[Erin Moriarty]

This was like the homicides that I worked on.

[Alex Hunter]

With such an impressive record for solving homicides that the Boulder District Attorney hired him on the Ramsey murder case.

[Erin Moriarty]

I had to stick up for the Boulder police for him a little bit.

[Alex Hunter]

And when you started, who did you believe killed JonBenet Ramsey?

[Erin Moriarty]

My gut feeling was the parents did it.

[Alex Hunter]

But as Smit followed the evidence and questioned the Ramseys, the more he became convinced that the Boulder police were focusing on the wrong suspects.

[Erin Moriarty]

John Ramsey came through very, very sincere.

[Patsy Ramsey]

So when I first found her, I was like, thank God I found her.

[Erin Moriarty]

When I left that interview, there was no doubt in my mind that he had nothing to do with the death of his daughter.

[Alex Hunter]

Smit quit the investigation in disgust.

[Erin Moriarty]

They hired me as a detective to take a look at this case. They may not like what I say, but I'm gonna say it. I don't think the Ramses did it. And I think they ought to start looking for people that did.

[Alex Hunter]

How would you describe Lou Smith?

[John Ramsey]

He's my hope in finding out who killed my daughter.

[Erin Moriarty]

As a detective, I'm looking for clues.

[Alex Hunter]

What is it that convinces Lou Smith that someone other than the Ramseys killed their six year old daughter? First and foremost, the brutality of the crime. Nearly every medical expert who has seen the autopsy report agrees on one thing. This was not an accidental death. JonBenet Ramsey was cruelly and deliberately murdered. We need to warn you that what you are about to see is very disturbing. What do we see here? JonBenet was strangled not once, says Smit, but twice with this intricately made device known as a garrote that had to been made by the killer during the murder.

[Erin Moriarty]

You see hair right inside the windings of that cord? That's JonBenet's hair.

[Alex Hunter]

It's a device, says Smith. That was not left there for show. Whoever killed JonBenet used the garrotte to strangle her. Smit believes she was fighting for her life. There were marks that look a lot like scratches on her neck.

[Erin Moriarty]

She did have her own DNA under her fingernails. I'm pretty sure that's a scratch to get that off. I think she was struggling then at some point.

[Alex Hunter]

The child was then hit over the head with some. It crushed her skull. But her nightmare wasn't over. Shortly before she died, investigators Believe she was sexually assaulted with a piece of the paintbrush that was used to make the garrote.

[Erin Moriarty]

There's no motive for the parent to do that.

[Alex Hunter]

The evidence says Smit, simply does not support the popular theory that the Ramseys struck their daughter and then tried to cover it up.

[Erin Moriarty]

It's not a mother waking up in the middle of the night saying, oops, I think I hurt my child. Oops, I gotta bring her downstairs and fashion one of these things. Then I'm gonna put it around her neck. And I'm gonna tighten it a couple times while she's struggling. Now, if you want to believe that, go ahead. I can't say this on air, but that's bull.

[Alex Hunter]

But what about those fibers from Patsy Ramsey's jacket that police say were in the paint tray and on the sticky side of duct tape covering JonBenet's mouth? Is the fact that there were fibers that were consistent with Patsy Ramsey's jacket incriminating?

[Erin Moriarty]

Sure.

[Alex Hunter]

But does that shake your faith that the Ramseys were not involved?

[Erin Moriarty]

No. You just can't rely on fiber evidence. Because fibers could come off of a jacket or something similar to the jacket.

[Alex Hunter]

What's more, says Smit, there were also dozens of unidentified fibers that didn't come from the Ramses. And Smit is unaware of a single case where a parent used a garrote like this to kill a child.

[Erin Moriarty]

This is one of the best clues left behind by the killer. This shows what's going on in his mind. This is a sexual device. I'm looking for a pedophile. That's a sexual status. That's what Lou Smith's looking for.

[Alex Hunter]

Smith's not the only one.

[Erin Moriarty]

Well, there's 57 pages of names that have come out of the tip files.

[Alex Hunter]

Colorado Private detective Ollie Gray and his partner John San Agustin were hired by the Ramseys two years ago.

[Erin Moriarty]

That would be JonBenet's room right here on the second level.

[Alex Hunter]

Even when the Ramses ran out of money, Ollie and John stayed on the job.

[Erin Moriarty]

We probably do something on it two or three times a week.

[Alex Hunter]

Even though you're not getting paid.

[Erin Moriarty]

Sure.

[Alex Hunter]

They became convinced of the Ramsey's innocence after seeing this lab report.

[Erin Moriarty]

I acquired a document that you see right here that names John and Patsy Ramsey as suspects. Was submitted for analysis. Reference DNA.

[Alex Hunter]

Just days after JonBenet was murdered. Her parents were asked to give DNA samples to the Boulder police. The two of you have given DNA evidence to the police?

[Patsy Ramsey]

Absolutely. Blood, hair, DNA, everything. We've given them everything they've asked for.

[Alex Hunter]

Their DNA was compared to foreign DNA found under their daughter's fingernails and in her panties, which may have been left by the killer. Does any of that DNA match anyone in the Ramsey family?

[Erin Moriarty]

No. This analysis eliminates the Ramses.

[John Ramsey]

If our DNA matched anything significant, they would have arrested us in a New York minute. I don't ever think they wouldn't have.

[Alex Hunter]

If not the Ramseys, then who killed JonBenet?

[Erin Moriarty]

This is where I believe that the killer got in.

[Alex Hunter]

Retired homicide detective Lou Smith was still working on the official investigation when he concluded that a stranger came into the Ramsey home.

[Erin Moriarty]

He opened a grate, he went in.

[Alex Hunter]

And killed their six year old daughter.

[Erin Moriarty]

There's three windows there. The center one was the one that was open. Take a look real closely at the window on the left. What you're going to see is leaves and debris pressed right up against the window. Now let's take a look at the one again. In the center, no leaves or debris, which says that window was open. Directly below that open window, you have a suitcase. Directly around that suitcase you have leaves and debris from that window. Well, around, around that suitcase also. See, if you look very closely, you're going to see a mark that goes right down the wall right here.

[Alex Hunter]

A scuff mark that Smith believes was left by someone either climbing in or climbing out. You can fit through that window without any problem. In fact, he has. As you can see in this video shot, as part of Smit's investigation, it.

[Erin Moriarty]

Is much easier to go out that window. If you stand on something, you put the suit on, you step on the suitcase and you're right out into the window. Well, lift the grate, you're gone. It's that easy.

[Alex Hunter]

But why would an intruder who intended to kill JonBenet leave the bizarre two and a half page ransom note written with paper and a pen belonging to Patsy? Boulder police have always believed that Patsy used it to make the killing look like a kidnapping. But if someone had been targeting JonBenet Ramsey, wouldn't he at least bring the paper and the pencil to write this ransom note?

[Erin Moriarty]

I mean, well, if you want to look at it from a sophisticated criminal's mind, they probably wouldn't bring it in. Why would you bring in something that can be traced back to your house where you have actual the pen and the ink and you have the paper right there that it was written on.

[Alex Hunter]

But you can't count on finding that in the house.

[Erin Moriarty]

Can't count on it. Most houses have that.

[Alex Hunter]

No expert could eliminate Patsy Ramsey as the writer of the ransom Note. That's damning, isn't it?

[Erin Moriarty]

No, not at all. You always are going to have similarities in handwriting. To sit down and write a note like that with all of those details in there. After you brutally killed your daughter. You'd never done that before. Come on, give me a break.

[Alex Hunter]

But more than any other evidence, Smit believes small marks left on JonBenet's face, face and back prove an intruder killed her.

[Erin Moriarty]

The killer had a stun gun. I am sure the killer had a stun gun.

[Alex Hunter]

A stun gun, an electrical weapon used to incapacitate the little girl in order to move her to the basement. Smith believes only an intruder would need to use one.

[Erin Moriarty]

There is no reason at all for the parents to have used a stun gun to help stage the murder of their daughter.

[Alex Hunter]

Was there any indication that the Ramses had ever owned a stun gun?

[Erin Moriarty]

There is nothing to indicate the Ramses ever owned a stun gun.

[Alex Hunter]

What's significant about these injuries, says Smit, is that those on the child's face and those on her back appear to be an equal distance apart. Approximately 3.5 cm, much like the prongs of this stun gun.

[Erin Moriarty]

And they're approximately 3.5 centimeters apart.

[Alex Hunter]

And if I push this, Dr. Michael Doberson.

[Erin Moriarty]

You can see the electricity arcing.

[Alex Hunter]

The coroner for neighboring Arapahoe county also believes the marks on JonBenet were left by a stun gun.

[Lou Smit]

If it's not a stun gun, I'd.

[Erin Moriarty]

Like to know what it is.

[Alex Hunter]

Three other pathologists agreed. But the Boulder police are relying instead on this man's opinion. How sure are you that it's not a stun gun? Well, I'm 100% sure, because stun gun.

[Erin Moriarty]

Injuries don't look that way.

[Alex Hunter]

Dr. Werner Spitz, a nationally known forensic pathologist who has worked on major cases, including the assassination of John F. Kennedy. A stun gun injury is an electrical burn. It's a burn, essentially, and these don't look like burns. Unfortunately, with only photographs to go by, no expert, not Dr. Spitz nor Dr. Doberson, can be 100% sure. Wouldn't that have been the best way to know or come? The closest to knowing is if you could have exhumed the body and line up a sun gun and see if it matches those injuries.

[Erin Moriarty]

Sure. I believe that would have probably been the most accurate way to do it.

[Alex Hunter]

Lou Smit admits that in the months following JonBenet's death. Investigators considered going to court to have her body exhumed, but decided against it.

[Patsy Ramsey]

We had buried our child. She was at peace. That was just an abhorrent thought.

[Alex Hunter]

But John, that might have been the one way to know for sure that could have resolved the whole issue. Because if a stun gun was used, it was not the parents, certainly.

[Patsy Ramsey]

And we've got people that have told us that know what they're doing that with 95% medical certainty that a stun gun was used. No question.

[Alex Hunter]

But you would have known with 100% certainty if you had exhumed the body, as tough as that would have been.

[Patsy Ramsey]

That child you're talking about is. It's not a body. It's different.

[Alex Hunter]

Still, Smith believes a stun gun is the key to JonBenet's murder, and he's searching for a killer or killers who own one.

[Erin Moriarty]

The person who did this, if we're right, he's still out there. What do you make of the intruder theory? See more of the [e-mail] remember when.

[Lou Smit]

Gaming meant dropping hundreds on a console or gaming PC?

[Erin Moriarty]

Well, those days are over. Amazon Luna lets you play your favorite video games instantly on devices you already own. Just like streaming a movie.

[Lou Smit]

No expensive hardware required.

[Erin Moriarty]

Here's the Amazon Luna Magic. All you need is an Internet connection and a screen. Your phone, tablet, laptop, fire, tv, they all instantly become your gaming oasis. No game downloads, no special hardware. Just gaming. And we're talking hundreds of amazing games here, from the latest releases to beloved classics Fortnite, Sonic, Assassin's Creed, Fallout, Batman, action adventure, racing, strategy, RPGs. So much game, so little time. But the best part? If you're an Amazon prime member, you can play on Luna for free. That's right, free.

[Lou Smit]

Ready to level up your gaming?

[Erin Moriarty]

Head to Amazon.com Luna to start playing today. No console, no problem. That's cloud gaming with Amazon Luna Thumbtack.

[Lou Smit]

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[Alex Hunter]

On the On a cold December night that marked the one year anniversary of JonBenet's murder, dozens of mourners showed up for a candlelight vigil outside the Ramsey home. One man in particular caught investigator Lou Smith's eye.

[Erin Moriarty]

Many times criminals do return to the scene, and that was on the anniversary that people puts him right there at the Ramsey house.

[Alex Hunter]

A year later, he's Gary Oliva, a 38 year old convicted sex offender from Oregon who lives in Boulder.

[Erin Moriarty]

He definitely is a sex offender for assaulting another seven year old girl in Oregon. They spent time in prison for that.

[Alex Hunter]

Smit is convinced that a pedophile came into the Ramsey home and killed their daughter.

[Erin Moriarty]

On my computer, I probably got 25 good leads and I probably have another 50 pages of other leads to follow.

[Alex Hunter]

Among the files he's keeping on sex offenders in Boulder, Gary Oliva's name stands out. In 1991, the year after he sexually assaulted the little girl, police reports say he tried to strangle his mother with a telephone cord. And in December 1996, Oliva may have been only a few houses away from from JonBenet's bedroom window. This is the alley behind.

[Erin Moriarty]

This is the alley that runs behind the Ramsey home. Leads into the backyard to the garage area. It wasn't uncommon for JonBenet and Burke to ride their bicycles around the alleyway.

[Alex Hunter]

John San Agustin and Ollie Gray, the Ramsey's private investigators, say Oliva frequented these buildings owned by a local church.

[Erin Moriarty]

A lot of transit people come here for food and also to pick up their mail.

[Alex Hunter]

But why is this relevant?

[Erin Moriarty]

The Ramsey home is what, 10 houses?

[Alex Hunter]

Right up this alley.

[Erin Moriarty]

Right up this alley.

[Alex Hunter]

What did the Boulder police do with this? Nothing. According to Lou Smith, the police didn't follow up on 95% of the more than 3,000 phone tips that came in. In Oliva's case. They didn't investigate him until nearly four years after JonBenet Ramsey's death, when he was caught. And guess what else? A stun gun. Did you ever use that stun gun on a child?

[Erin Moriarty]

No.

[Alex Hunter]

Oliva, who was wanted in Oregon for parole violations, turned himself into the Boulder police two weeks ago. Did you hurt or kill JonBenet Ramsey?

[Erin Moriarty]

No. No, I didn't.

[Alex Hunter]

Didn't you tell your friend that you were a trap to little girls?

[Erin Moriarty]

I don't think I want to answer that.

[John Ramsey]

Okay.

[Alex Hunter]

You were living in Boulder at the time JonBenet was killed?

[Erin Moriarty]

Yeah.

[Alex Hunter]

Just down the street.

[Erin Moriarty]

Yeah.

[Alex Hunter]

What he will admit to is an obsession with JonBenet.

[Erin Moriarty]

I believe that she came to me after she was killed and revealed herself to me.

[Alex Hunter]

As it turns out, we're not the only ones interested in Oliva. A Boulder police officer showed up to take take notes.

[Erin Moriarty]

I would be concerned if any lead was not fully taken to ground.

[Alex Hunter]

Former Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter says police tried to follow up on pedophiles but admits that early on the force was clearly overwhelmed. Didn't your office have to tell police officers, you gotta look at these other leads. You can't just focus on the Rams.

[Erin Moriarty]

Well, it was said probably not in quite that language, but yes. Can I have a cigarette?

[Alex Hunter]

Why didn't authorities take a sex offender like Oliva more seriously? Just this week, Boulder police said Oliva is not a suspect. Sources say his DNA doesn't match evidence at the scene, nor does ours. What do you think of that?

[John Ramsey]

I think it's a double standard. Don't you?

[Alex Hunter]

Is it fair to say then that. That the state of the evidence right now there just isn't enough to convict the Ramseys beyond a reasonable doubt?

[Erin Moriarty]

There isn't enough to convict anybody beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Alex Hunter]

But Alex Hunter believes this case someday can be solved, although he doesn't think Lou Smith is the man to do it. Do you feel that Lou Smith's feelings for the Ramses clouded his judgment?

[Erin Moriarty]

I think a little bit.

[Alex Hunter]

Hunter believes Smit, a devout Christian Christian, crossed a line when working as a DA investigator. He prayed with the Ramses. Do you think maybe you've gotten too close to Ramses?

[Erin Moriarty]

Well, let's put it this way. I don't think I did. If the Ramses did this and I found out, I'd be first one standing in line at the Boulder Police Department.

[Alex Hunter]

JonBenet Ramsey would have been 12 years old this year and in sixth grade. Instead, she's buried in a Georgia cemetery while her brutal killer or killers go free. Next, a new interview with John Ramsey.

[Lou Smit]

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[Alex Hunter]

Remarkably, not much has changed since that 2002 program. The case is at a standstill. But with the passage of so much time comes the loss of some key figures, most notably Patsy Ramsey, who died of in 2006. She was 49. John Ramsey remarried five years later. I think back about Patsy and I remember Patsy saying that your lives could not go on until the killer was found. How much weight was that on Patsy before she died?

[Patsy Ramsey]

Patsy was a very strong woman. She really was a very kind person, a wonderful mother. She got pretty vilified in the media, which was horribly unfair, I think hurt deeper than it showed.

[Alex Hunter]

Investigator Lou Smit worked on the case almost until the day he died in August 2010. His family continues to pursue leads. John, do you believe this case could be solved?

[Patsy Ramsey]

Yes, I do. If the police will take advantage of all the technology that's available to him and that's going to one or two of the world's cutting edge labs for DNA testing. And I think if they do that and if we're successful getting a sample in the right format and then do the genealogy research, I'm 80% confident it could be solved. But you got to do it.

[Alex Hunter]

In November 2024, the Boulder Police Department released a statement which said the assertion that there is viable evidence and leads we are not pursuing to include DNA testing is completely false. The department said there is an ongoing investigation and they're looking into the recommendations made by a recent cold case review team, Police Chief Stephen Redfern.

[Patsy Ramsey]

We have thoroughly investigated multiple people identified as suspects throughout the years and we continue to be open minded about what occurred as we investigate the tips that.

[Erin Moriarty]

Come in to detectives.

[Alex Hunter]

John Ramsey remains hopeful that these new efforts may finally reveal the killer. A killer he believes was already waiting in their house when the family came home from dinner that Christmas night.

[Patsy Ramsey]

We were casual with our security in our home in Boulder. We thought it was a safe place and we got casual and complacent.

[Alex Hunter]

When you look back, are there any things you wish you had done differently?

[Patsy Ramsey]

The little beauty pageants they participated in and I wouldn't have done that. You need to keep your children private. It was conflict for me because Bassy just recovered from stage four of ovarian cancer, was grateful to have some life ahead of her in remission. She didn't know how long to spend with her children and to raise her children. I think she tried to pack a lot of mother daughter time in that period of time that she knew she had ahead of her.

[Alex Hunter]

Do you ever dream about JonBenet or wonder what it would have been like now?

[Patsy Ramsey]

Well, I dream. I occasionally have dreams and they're really wonderful dreams. But I don't try to imagine what she would have been. She was in my life for six years and was my little girl and that's how I remember her.

[Alex Hunter]

As a.

[Erin Moriarty]

Kid growing up in Chicago. There was one horror movie I was too scared to watch. It was called Candyman. But did you know that the movie Candyman was partly inspired by an action Listen to Candyman, the True Story behind the Bathroom Mirror Murder wherever you get.

[Alex Hunter]

Your podcasts, I'm erin Moriarty of 48 hours and of all the cases I've covered, this is the one that troubles me most. Listen to Murder in the Orange Grove, the Trouble Case against Crosley Greene, wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this podcast, you can.

[Erin Moriarty]

Listen ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app.

[Alex Hunter]

Before you go, tell us about yourself.

[Erin Moriarty]

By filling out a quick [e-mail] survey.

[Alex Hunter]

He was hip hop's biggest mogul. The man who redefined fame, fortune and the music industry.

[Erin Moriarty]

The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Combs.

[Alex Hunter]

Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party. So yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a.

[Erin Moriarty]

Three count indictment charging Sean Combs with racketeering, conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution.

[Alex Hunter]

I was up and I hit rock bottom. But I made no excuses.

[Erin Moriarty]

I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real.

[Alex Hunter]

From his meteoric rise to his shocking.

[Erin Moriarty]

Fall from grace from law and crime.

[Alex Hunter]

This is the rise and fall of Diddy.

[Erin Moriarty]

Listen to the rise and fall of Diddy.

[Alex Hunter]

Exclusively with Wonder.

[Erin Moriarty]

Behind the closed doors of government offices and military compounds, there are hidden stories and buried secrets from the darkest corners. From COVID experiments pushing the boundaries of science to operations so secretive they were barely whispered about. Each week on Redacted Declassified Mysteries, we pull back the curtain on These hidden histories, 100% true and verifiable stories that expose the shadowy underbelly of power. Consider Operation Paperclip, where former Nazi scientists were brought to America after World War II not as prisoners but as assets to advance US intelligence during the Cold War. These aren't just old conspiracy theories they're thoroughly investigated accounts that reveal the uncomfortable truths still shaping our world today. The stories are real. The secrets are shocking. Follow Declassified Mysteries with me, Luke lamanna on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts to listen ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app.

[Alex Hunter]

You don't believe in ghosts. I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada as we journey through terrifying and bone chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.