What the Neighbors Saw

Summary

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48 Hours Podcast: "What the Neighbors Saw"

Air Date: March 23, 2026
Podcast: 48 Hours
Host: CBS News Correspondents

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Episode Overview

This episode of "48 Hours" explores the deeply complex investigation into the disappearance and murder of Gary Herbst, a reclusive and disliked man from Minnesota. Spanning nearly a decade, the case was cracked wide open by a series of neighbor observations, genetic genealogy, and emotional confessions. The episode dives into the tension within the Herbst family, the community’s conflicted responses, and the eventual unraveling of a murder mystery with profound questions around justice, abuse, and motive.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Discovery and Initial Investigation

• The Case Breaks Open
  • December 3, 2017: A dog brings home a human skull with a gunshot wound in rural Wisconsin ([02:58]).
  • Det. Jeff Nelson coordinates a search, discovering a clandestine grave and scattered remains ([03:13]-[03:48]).
  • Early uncertainty: murder or suicide?

    "We literally have human bones, human remains with a gunshot wound to the head. And at that point, is this a murder? Is this a suicide?"
    — Prosecutor Sarah Wendorf ([03:48])

2. Victim Identification

• Genetic Genealogy as a Breakthrough
  • Genetic genealogist Robin Espenson uses DNA to identify the remains as Gary Albert Herbst ([04:31]-[05:00]).
  • Gary is tracked to Scott County, MN; last seen in 2013 ([04:55]).
• Neighbors' Suspicion
  • Neighbors remember the night in 2013—scrubbing, garbage bags, a rolled-up carpet ([05:17]-[05:34]).

    "I turned to Chad and I was like, what is going on? And Chad looked at me and he said, 'Kaya, I think they finally killed him.'"
    — Kaya Cramell ([05:34])

3. Family Dynamics and Disappearance

• Gary's Troubled Personality
  • Described as a loner, volatile, and often unpleasant; estranged from family ([06:24]-[06:53]).
• Connie's Unreported Missing Persons Case
  • Sister Linda is shocked Gary's wife Connie didn't initially report his disappearance ([07:12]-[07:28]).
• Suspicion Grows
  • Contradictory statements from Connie and Austin (Gary's son); changing stories about Gary's departure ([09:20]-[12:01]).

    "We're suspicious of their stories right away. So there was a lot of things this didn't match up."
    — Det. Jeff Nelson ([11:20])

4. Investigation Evolves: Evidence and Interrogations

• Polygraphs and Changing Stories
  • Connie passes, Austin fails polygraph; both stories increasingly inconsistent ([16:24]-[17:34]).

    "So the story changed and morphed each time you talked with him."
    — Det. Jeff Nelson ([17:34])

  • Austin pushes the narrative of a mysterious tattooed man—investigators see it as fiction ([17:54]).
• Returning to the Scene
  • Neighbors recount Gary’s history of harassment and psychological manipulation ([18:31]-[20:19]).

    “He was just an evil person.”
    — Neighbor Chad Cramell ([19:12])

• Physical Evidence at the Home
  • Red stains found in the house; former neighbors recall suspicious activity ([21:02]-[23:08]).
  • Cadaver dog (Radar) detects scent of human remains and luminol reveals blood stains ([25:18]-[26:46]).

    “It certainly consistent and corroborates what the neighbors saw. We believed Gary was most likely murdered inside that particular house.”
    — Det. Jeff Nelson ([26:50])

5. Breaking the Case: Confessions and Charges

• Confrontation with Evidence
  • Connie and Austin are confronted with forensic evidence and neighbor statements. Both continue to deny; body language signals defeat ([27:56]-[28:17]).
• Circumstantial Case Goes to Prosecutors
  • Without a confession, but with mounting evidence, charges move forward ([29:47]-[29:58]).
  • November 19, 2020: Connie and Austin are arrested for second-degree murder ([30:11]).

6. Austin Confesses

• Austin’s Full Account
  • During interrogations and on "48 Hours," Austin details the killing: abuse claims, shooting his father to protect his mother, disposal of the body ([32:11]-[33:39]).
  • Detailed description of escalation and the fateful day ([34:33]-[35:58]):

    "I grabbed the gun, I pointed at him, and I pulled the trigger. It broke me. It changed who I am irrevocably."
    — Austin Herbst ([36:12])

  • Relief after the act; no longer living in fear ([36:29]-[36:37]).
• Dismemberment and Coverup
  • Body wrapped in rug, dumped in Wisconsin ([36:50]-[37:22]).

7. Prosecutorial Perspective & Sentencing

• Scrutiny Over Self-Defense Claim
  • Prosecutors Mike Grow and Sarah Wendorf dispute claims of immediate threat or self-defense, citing lack of evidence of abuse ([37:49]-[41:12]).

    "We have never seen any information to suggest that there was any abuse that Gary had committed against Austin or his wife."
    — Prosecutor Sarah Wendorf ([41:22])

• Sentencing
  • Judge finds Austin’s belief in imminent threat credible, sentences him to 12.5 years; eligible for release in 2029 ([44:27]).
  • Connie sentenced to 2 years, 3 months; served 3 months ([45:32]-[45:46]).
• Family and Community Reaction
  • Gary’s sister, Linda, disappointed by sentence leniency ([45:09]-[45:17]).
  • Neighbors express relief or even support for Austin and Connie ([46:09]-[46:26]):

    "I hope he's doing well, and when he gets out, please look us up. I'd like to help him in any way I can."
    — Neighbor Jason Grimm ([46:21])

  • Some neighbors believe the Herbsts are not a danger to society.

8. Reflections and Aftermath

• Austin’s Regret and Search for Meaning
  • Expresses shame, confusion, a desire to leave a different legacy ([47:00]-[47:11]):

    "My only goal in life is to leave something behind that's worth remembering. This isn't it."
    — Austin Herbst ([47:11])

• Lingering Questions
  • Did Connie play a larger role? Was Austin protecting her with his confession? ([42:22]-[43:09])
  • Community divided: justified act or not?

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [03:13] "It had an obvious gunshot wound to the back of the head." — Det. Jeff Nelson
• [05:34] "Kaya, I think they finally killed him." — Chad Cramell
• [19:12] "He was just an evil person." — Chad Cramell
• [36:12] "It broke me. It changed who I am irrevocably." — Austin Herbst
• [41:22] "We have never seen any information to suggest that there was any abuse that Gary had committed..." — Sarah Wendorf
• [46:21] "I hope he's doing well, and when he gets out, please look us up. I'd like to help him in any way I can." — Jason Grimm
• [47:11] "My only goal in life is to leave something behind that's worth remembering. This isn't it." — Austin Herbst

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------------------|------------| | Initial Discovery of Skull and Grave | 02:42–03:48| | Case passed to DNA Doe Project | 04:31 | | Neighbors witness strange night activities | 05:17–05:34| | Family Interviews: Contradiction and Suspicion | 09:20–12:01| | Polygraph Interviews and Fictional Stories | 16:24–17:54| | Neighbors Comment on Gary’s Abusive Behavior | 18:31–20:19| | Cadaver Dog and Luminol Evidence | 25:18–26:46| | Final Confrontation and Arrest | 29:47–30:11| | Austin’s Detailed Confession | 32:11–36:37| | Prosecutors’ Self-Defense Analysis | 37:49–41:12| | Sentencing and Community Response | 44:27–46:26| | Austin’s Reflections on Remorse and Future | 47:00–47:11|

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Tone and Closing Thoughts

The tone oscillates between investigative rigor, empathy for people affected by violence, and unease at the gray areas of justice and moral justification. The case prompts difficult questions: How much can claims of abuse—never reported, never corroborated—mitigate a brutal act? The community’s relief at Gary’s absence sits in stark contrast to the horror of the murder itself.

The story, as told in this episode, is a powerful meditation on abuse, desperation, justice, and the unforeseen consequences of violence even in quiet suburban neighborhoods.

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Transcript

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[Detective Jeff Nelson]

As a career detective, this case is very unique. Little did I know that this would lead to one of the most fascinating cold case homicides that I'd ever been a part of.

[Interviewer/Host]

How did this case begin for you?

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

So on December 3rd of 2017, the Sheriff's Department received a 911 call from a homeowner reporting that their family dog brought back a human skull.

[Interviewer/Host]

It came back with a human skull?

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

Yes, and it had an obvious gunshot wound to the back of the head. We kind of organized a grid search and within minutes located the clandestine grave right off in this area. So, Peter, this is the area right up here.

[Interviewer/Host]

I'll follow you. Now, this is quite a thicket, isn't it?

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

It's a little thicket. If you see this little indention in the soil right here, that's where the skeletal remains were found.

[Prosecutor Sarah Wendorf]

We had a very circumstantial case. We literally have human bones, human remains with a gunshot wound to the head. And at that point, is this a murder? Is this a suicide?

[Interviewer/Host]

We have a model of a human skull. Can you show us where that wound was?

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

It's pretty much towards the back rear of the skull.

[Interviewer/Host]

When you look at these scattered bones, are they telling you a story?

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

Yes, it tells me that it's most likely the story of murder. We were reviewing missing persons cases throughout the Midwest, but nothing was definitive to who this victim was.

[Genetic Genealogist Robin Espenson]

When the cases come to the DNA DOE project, everything's already been exhausted. Genetic genealogy is the last resort. So we use the DNA to look at the matches and we can build family trees that way and figure out the identities of people. In this case, that person is Gary Albert Herbst,

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

the victim. Gary was from Scott County, Minnesota. We located the home where Gary had last lived. Some of the neighbors who still lived in the neighborhood had reported some remembering some activity back in 2013 that they found suspicious.

[Neighbor Kaya Cramell]

It's pouring down rain. It's probably 11:30 at night.

[Prosecutor Sarah Wendorf]

Pitch black, dark.

[Interviewer/Host]

Something catches your eye across at the Herp's house. Chad, what do you see?

[Neighbor Chad Cramell]

I see the neighbors scrubbing the floors. I see them scrubbing the walls.

[Neighbor Kaya Cramell]

We saw them bringing out black garbage bags. They eventually brought out a rolled up carpet. I didn't know what I was looking at. I had no idea. And I turned to Chad and I was like, what is going on? And Chad looked at me and he said, kaya, I think they finally killed him.

[Narrator/Host]

It was in June of 2020 when Linda Dane learned the disturbing circumstances of how her long lost brother Gary's skull had been found by a dog in rural Barren County, Wisconsin.

[Linda Herbst (Gary's sister)]

Yeah, it's kind of a eerie type thing to think of. But it still led to finding out what happened, the truth.

[Narrator/Host]

Linda says gary, who was 57 when he went missing, was a loner with a difficult personality who rarely saw his own extended family. Which is why pictures that exist of him are from his younger years, seen here with his wife, Connie.

[Linda Herbst (Gary's sister)]

He could be stubborn, he could be crabby.

[Narrator/Host]

It had been years since Linda and Gary had spoken. And in 2013, she learned from connie that he had vanished, Walking out on her and their son Austin, Seen here as a teenager.

[Interviewer/Host]

What did you think of that?

[Linda Herbst (Gary's sister)]

I was shocked. I didn't know what to think.

[Narrator/Host]

Linda says she found it strange that Connie had not reported his disappearance to police.

[Linda Herbst (Gary's sister)]

And it's like, okay, did you file a missing persons report? Did you report it? Did you do anything? And they did nothing.

[Interviewer/Host]

What was her reason for not reporting that her husband was missing?

[Linda Herbst (Gary's sister)]

She didn't give us a reason.

[Narrator/Host]

At Linda and her family's urging, Connie filed this missing persons report with the elko newmarket police department in Minnesota, where the herbs lived. In the report, Connie said Gary grabbed a suitcase and left in an older gray Honda vehicle. But she claimed she did not get a look at who was driving. Six years would pass before an investigative genetic genealogist, Robin espenson, Would be able to construct a family tree that led to identifying the skull.

[Genetic Genealogist Robin Espenson]

We knew that we had found the identity of our doe as Gary albert herbst.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

Gary herbst was originally born in north central Wisconsin. We located family members of his in south central Minnesota.

[Narrator/Host]

That's when detective Jeff nelson from the barren county sheriff's office tracked down Austin and Connie at the retirement community where they both worked.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

I think it was a little bit of a surprise to them because we actually found out that both Connie herbst and her son Austin worked at a nursing home. We basically walked in unannounced and met with both Connie and austin.

[Interviewer/Host]

When you told Connie that you had found her missing husband, Likely had found him. Was she excited about the news, or was she stoic about it?

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

Both of them were very stoic. Never, never even commented. Well, at least we know it's him. It's like they just glassed over it.

[Narrator/Host]

Brent peterson, A special agent with the Minnesota bureau of criminal apprehension, Joined Jeff nelson to interview Connie.

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

She was not uncooperative. She was just trying to be helpful. At least that was the appearance.

[Interviewer/Host]

Did you get into the issue about why she didn't report her husband as being missing?

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

Yeah. That was a red flag from the beginning.

[Narrator/Host]

Here's Connie's answer About why she didn't report it.

[Connie Herbst (Gary's wife)]

Because he left on his own. I said I didn't think I had to.

[Narrator/Host]

Connie told investigators she wasn't surprised Gary walked out on them because he had a troubled lifestyle.

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

She described Gary as a drug user. He would use drugs and spend all their money. He just was described to us as just being a generally kind of a volatile, angry, unpleasant person. How was he with austin

[Connie Herbst (Gary's wife)]

up until the age of 10. Great. But at the age of 10, when Gary would start his yelling and screaming at me.

[Investigator/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Connie Herbst (Gary's wife)]

Austin would step in between. Okay, don't you yell at my mom.

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

Did he ever hate you in the 30 plus years you guys were married?

[Connie Herbst (Gary's wife)]

Once or twice, yeah. One time he hit me pretty hard and blackened with my shoulder. The other time, he actually didn't hit me. He pushed me, and I broke my toe.

[Narrator/Host]

In his interview, Austin told investigators his father had become enraged the day he left and later learned he had stolen $5,000 in cash and his mother's wedding ring.

[Austin Herbst (Gary's son)]

I heard him banging around in the master bedroom. I'm like, okay, what's going on? Looked in, he was packing a suitcase. He's like, I'm leaving. And, yeah, he got some guy pulled up, picked him up.

[Narrator/Host]

Connie told investigators she was at the library that day and remembered getting a frantic call from her son.

[Connie Herbst (Gary's wife)]

He was dead, left. Dad left. He got in a vehicle with somebody.

[Narrator/Host]

Investigators soon realized that connie may have lied to them.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Why?

[Narrator/Host]

Because in her missing person's report, Connie had said she was home when gary walked out.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

We're suspicious of their stories right away. So there was a lot of things this didn't match up.

[Narrator/Host]

Connie added to investigators suspicions when she gave yet another new detail.

[Connie Herbst (Gary's wife)]

The.40 caliber gun was gone. That was mine.

[Narrator/Host]

Connie had never mentioned Gary had stolen her gun when she first reported him missing.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

So there's a lot of oddities that she's telling.

[Interviewer/Host]

Had she said something in your mind that was particularly incriminating?

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

I wouldn't say incriminating, But I strongly felt she had certainly knowledge of his murder. I figured she had some form of involvement.

[Narrator/Host]

So investigators redoubled their efforts to try to learn more.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

So there's a lot of working pieces going on.

[Narrator/Host]

Several months passed before investigators were ready to interview Connie and austin a second time. This time, they dug deeper into Connie's claims of abuse.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

So, you know, your mom talked of some abuse issues in the family, how you were very protective of her. Yeah, we understand now.

[Austin Herbst (Gary's son)]

It was more the fact that I hated when he would sit there and yell at her and it would upset her.

[Narrator/Host]

And the more investigators questioned austin, the more he began to blame his father for his own demise.

[Austin Herbst (Gary's son)]

Yeah, he was an angry guy and stuff, But I never expected that it would get to the point where someone would want to kill him.

[Narrator/Host]

Directing attention toward a mysterious man with tattoos he says his father drove away with.

[Investigator/Interviewer]

You remember a guy with a black shirt and tattoos.

[Austin Herbst (Gary's son)]

That's about it. That's as far as I can get and that I got a really uneasy sense about it that was it foreign.

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[Narrator/Host]

Gary Herbst went missing in 2013. A dog found his skull in 2017 and by June of 2020, investigators suspected his own family, his wife Connie and son Austin Herbst were somehow involved in Gary's disappearance and murder.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

There's some follow up questions and information we need to gather to try to

[Narrator/Host]

piece all this together and during their second interview they consented to a polygraph

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

the investigators from wisconsin had arranged with the FBI. They both agreed to take polygraphs.

[Narrator/Host]

Lie detector tests are generally not admissible in court, but investigators will use them as a tool to judge an individual's credibility.

[Interviewer/Host]

What were the results?

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

Connie did not show any signs of deception, But Austin did.

[Narrator/Host]

An investigator from the FBI confronted Austin.

[Investigator/Interviewer]

So I'm very convinced. But you clearly know what happened.

[Austin Herbst (Gary's son)]

I don't.

[Investigator/Interviewer]

I'm telling you, Austin, you can't walk away here saying you don't know anything because you clearly know something.

[Connie Herbst (Gary's wife)]

No.

[Investigator/Interviewer]

Whatever it is, you gotta tell me.

[Austin Herbst (Gary's son)]

I suspected that the guy in the truck wasn't exactly friendly. I just. The look I got from him, he was. Looked sketchy.

[Investigator/Interviewer]

Either you're involved with your mom in killing your father, or you're involved with someone else in killing your father.

[Austin Herbst (Gary's son)]

I'm not involved with it. I'm just gonna tell you. Saying my mom's involved with that is pretty out of this world.

[Narrator/Host]

Detectives say Austin continued to draw the investigators attention toward the man with tattoos he says picked up his father that day.

[Investigator/Interviewer]

Tell me what. Describe what you're talking about when you talk about the look of him.

[Austin Herbst (Gary's son)]

Tads came out with a black.

[Investigator/Interviewer]

A shirt that was all ripped up. Doesn't make sense. None of this makes sense.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

The first interview, he recalls his dad getting into a vehicle and leaving. Then that changed to he remembered some heavily tattooed man that looked, in his words, to be some sort of criminal that was the driver of a vehicle that his dad got into. So the story changed and morphed each time you talked with him.

[Narrator/Host]

Investigators suspected Austin's story was pure fiction.

[Investigator/Interviewer]

I just find way too many inconsistencies in your stories. I mean, with your story, with your mom's story.

[Interviewer/Host]

And did you feel that story was rehearsed? Certainly that he was trying to recall a script.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

Script.

[Narrator/Host]

But a feeling isn't evidence. And investigators had no choice but to let Connie and Austin go. Next, they headed to the family's old neighborhood and former home.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

Ironically, to a t, all the neighbors remembered Gary very well.

[Narrator/Host]

Detective nelson says that to a person, they described Gary as a mean, horrible human being.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

We repeatedly heard the term the biggest that you'll ever meet. If he was mad at a neighbor, apparently he had a pipe organ, and he would set up big speakers in the windows, and he would blast pipe organ music into the neighbor's house. In the wintertime, when he would get mad at a neighbor, he would take his snowboard over and purposefully blow and fill people's yards up. In the middle of the night with snow. With snow.

[Neighbor Chad Cramell]

He was just an evil person.

[Narrator/Host]

Neighbors Kaya and Chad Cramell's house was right behind the Herp's house. They say Gary often yelled at their two daughters and was caught secretly recording them on video.

[Neighbor Chad Cramell]

I looked, and in their back window, you could see the red light from the camera on. And I walked out there, and I could see the camera and Gary behind the camera.

[Interviewer/Host]

This is a video cam.

[Neighbor Chad Cramell]

Video camera, like camcorder. And he was just staring at me blatantly, like, on purpose, wanting to, you know, almost show me up and be like, yeah, I'm recording. And I sat there, and I was raising my hand, like, are you. Are you kidding me?

[Narrator/Host]

Chad filed an incident report with police.

[Interviewer/Host]

It sounds like this has a psychological component to it, like he was messing with your mind.

[Neighbor Kaya Cramell]

Absolutely. I feel like he wanted power, and he wanted everyone to know that he had that power. He most definitely tried to exercise that power by messing with people. Neighbors.

[Narrator/Host]

Another neighbor, Jason Grimm, says he experienced that firsthand. When Gary complained about the time he was snow blowing, he came out and

[Neighbor Jason Grimm]

started screaming and shouting at me, telling me I was going to flood his basement.

[Interviewer/Host]

Did you feel like he was a little dangerous?

[Neighbor Jason Grimm]

I never feared him just sheerly because it was all bark, no bite.

[Interviewer/Host]

Did you feel he was a dangerous man?

[Neighbor Kaya Cramell]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer/Host]

And did you the same way?

[Neighbor Jason Grimm]

Absolutely.

[Narrator/Host]

And when investigators interviewed Dee Hamlin, the new owner of the house where Gary and his family lived, they learned something that would confirm their suspicions about Connie and Austin.

[Dee Hamlin (New homeowner)]

Over in this area right here, before the closets were put in, somewhere over here, there was a big red stain.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Narrator/Host]

When investigators canvass Gary Herp's old neighborhood, they uncovered a trove of new clues from the time around his disappearance.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

People didn't like him, were afraid because he was very confrontational.

[Narrator/Host]

Neighbors Chad and Kaya Cramell recalled a storm.

[Neighbor Kaya Cramell]

Thunder, lightning, everything. Like, it was crazy.

[Narrator/Host]

And unusual activity in Gary's backyard.

[Neighbor Kaya Cramell]

It was maybe midnight ish. And we looked out the window.

[Neighbor Chad Cramell]

I see a truck backed in the backyard.

[Neighbor Kaya Cramell]

The truck was pulled right up to the sliding glass door, which we knew was super strange because Gary was very particular with his yard. He did not like anything out of order.

[Narrator/Host]

Chad and Kaya told investigators they remembered seeing Austin and Connie scrubbing the floors. And in the middle of the night,

[Interviewer/Host]

you could See directly from those windows into their house?

[Neighbor Chad Cramell]

Absolutely.

[Narrator/Host]

And loading large garbage bags into Gary's truck.

[Neighbor Kaya Cramell]

They were also carrying out a carpet or some sort of rug and also throwing it in the back of the truck. So we were watching the scene, and I turned to Chad, and I was like, what is going on? And Chad looked at me, and he said, kaya, I think they finally killed him.

[Interviewer/Host]

And did the two of you ever think we should share what we've witnessed with the police?

[Neighbor Kaya Cramell]

Absolutely not.

[Neighbor Chad Cramell]

No. And matter of fact, he was horrible.

[Narrator/Host]

And soon after that night, they say Connie and Austin seemed completely different.

[Neighbor Kaya Cramell]

It was good. It was fun to see them actually happy.

[Narrator/Host]

A few weeks later, their neighbors saw them setting up a yard sale.

[Neighbor Kaya Cramell]

So everybody started filtering over there, myself included. And we were looking at all of the things that they had for sale.

[Narrator/Host]

And what was for sale.

[Neighbor Kaya Cramell]

Men's clothing, men's shoes. There were tools, ammo boxes.

[Interviewer/Host]

Now, did you ask her, where's Gary?

[Neighbor Kaya Cramell]

Yes. And the answer was that he didn't want to be married anymore and he left.

[Narrator/Host]

Jason says he scored a bargain.

[Radar (Cadaver dog handler)]

I did.

[Neighbor Jason Grimm]

Bought a riding lawn tractor.

[Narrator/Host]

Neighbors say Austin and Connie began happily walking the neighborhood, offering up baked cookies.

[Interviewer/Host]

And do you think his disappearance in some ways, liberated their lives?

[Neighbor Jason Grimm]

Absolutely. Their steps were lighter. It was nice not to have them around.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

All of a sudden, Connie and Austin, they would be out in the yard stopping and greeting people where. None of that happened prior to the date that Gary allegedly left.

[Narrator/Host]

The next break in the case came when investigators obtained a search warrant for the former Herbst house and notified the new owner, Dee Hamlin, that they would be bringing in a cadaver dog along with her handler, police officer Dan Moldenhauer, to see if she could detect the scent of human remains.

[Interviewer/Host]

So this officer said there may have

[Narrator/Host]

been someone killed inside the house, and

[Interviewer/Host]

they wanted a dog to come in to see if they picked up any odor.

[Dee Hamlin (New homeowner)]

Exactly. I go, absolutely.

[Interviewer/Host]

When you got that call and you brought Radar out here, this is the very house you came to, correct?

[Investigator/Interviewer]

Correct.

[Narrator/Host]

Radar is the cadaver dog who searched Dee's house. She came back to the scene, along with her handler to show us what she did that day.

[Interviewer/Host]

When Radar wants to get inside, I'll tell you.

[Narrator/Host]

Yep.

[Radar (Cadaver dog handler)]

And I follow her.

[Dee Hamlin (New homeowner)]

I was present when the dog originally came in. I was there for the first sniff around.

[Narrator/Host]

Hamlin says something in the garage caught Radar's attention.

[Dee Hamlin (New homeowner)]

Radar concentrated heavily against this wall and on the brick behind the drywall pieces and the boxes.

[Investigator/Interviewer]

Radar find it?

[Narrator/Host]

Radar search continued inside the house.

[Dee Hamlin (New homeowner)]

Radar would Run from space to space

[Narrator/Host]

and room to room.

[Dee Hamlin (New homeowner)]

And almost like he had a pattern. And then we went downstairs, and that's where he slowed down.

[Narrator/Host]

According to radar's handler, the dog detected the odor of human remains around that red stain Dee had seen.

[Radar (Cadaver dog handler)]

She went straight to this room, Ignored every other thing else, came back, went along the wall, and then came to the corner where that closet door is.

[Narrator/Host]

That wasn't the only area that radar was interested in.

[Radar (Cadaver dog handler)]

She had a lot of odor here. I mean, she checked all the walls before she came back and sat.

[Interviewer/Host]

So there was definitely a presence of some sort of material. The guess is blood around this sliding door.

[Radar (Cadaver dog handler)]

Yes.

[Narrator/Host]

Crime scene investigators tested the spots with luminol, which indicated the presence of blood in the areas where the cadaver dog alerted.

[Interviewer/Host]

When you have the luminol literally lighting up, what is it suggesting to you?

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

Well, it certainly consistent and corroborates what the neighbors saw. We believed Gary was most likely murdered inside that particular house.

[Narrator/Host]

That's when they called Connie and Austin in for a third interview.

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

So we went to your old house on Wagner with us and just had a look, Trying to piece together Gary's kind of last movements. And there was some blood.

[Investigator/Interviewer]

Okay.

[Narrator/Host]

Connie said Gary, who was a machinist, often worked on projects and sometimes accidentally cut himself.

[Connie Herbst (Gary's wife)]

Usually it's his fingers.

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

This blood that we're finding is a bit more significant than just a little cut on the finger.

[Connie Herbst (Gary's wife)]

Oh, that I wouldn't know.

[Narrator/Host]

Investigators also question Connie about what the neighbors reported seeing.

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

Some witnesses saw what they thought was a rolled up rug being loaded in the back of the pickup.

[Connie Herbst (Gary's wife)]

No, I don't know. We didn't have any carpet. Just up in the living room.

[Captain Phil Nawrocki]

Her body language was, to me, was like she was defeated.

[Narrator/Host]

Phil nawrocki, a captain with the Scott county sheriff's office, was also present at the interrogation.

[Captain Phil Nawrocki]

Like, as long as I can continue to deny everything, I'm going to be okay. But she didn't get rattled. Very soft spoken.

[Interviewer/Host]

Did she sense she was in real trouble, do you think?

[Captain Phil Nawrocki]

Yes. I think she knew at that point that all the evidence was starting to gather up against her.

[Narrator/Host]

And Austin investigators continued to press Connie.

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

So it sounds like Gary was a little psychologically abusive with you guys. Yeah. What about physical abuse?

[Connie Herbst (Gary's wife)]

One time he. Well, he hit me.

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

Yeah.

[Connie Herbst (Gary's wife)]

Not that I didn't probably deserve it because I got pushed too far.

[Narrator/Host]

For Austin's interview, cameras were rolling as he was grilled by detective Jeff Nelson.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

Do you feel that he was the husband that he should have been to Your mother?

[Investigator/Interviewer]

No.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

And you stepped in and intervened him several times, did you not?

[Austin Herbst (Gary's son)]

Yeah.

[Connie Herbst (Gary's wife)]

Okay.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

You became a protector.

[Connie Herbst (Gary's wife)]

Yeah.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

Okay. Which I would have to believe culminated in July of 2013, where you took action to protect your mom. Did you pull the trigger and put the round in the back of your father's head?

[Narrator/Host]

But no matter how many times Austin was asked that question, he never answered it. Once again, Connie and Austin were allowed to leave the police station.

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

And that was a strategic plan that we had come up with, knowing full well that if we needed to arrest them, we'd be able to find them later.

[Narrator/Host]

Now, investigators believed they had enough evidence to bring the case to prosecutors.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

There was some reluctance. There was no confession. It's simply a circumstantial case, albeit we felt it was a very good one.

[Narrator/Host]

And on November 19, 2020, around 7am, Connie, then 62 years old, and Austin, 26, were taken into custody.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

I tell Austin that he is under arrest for the murder of his father.

[Narrator/Host]

The two would eventually be charged with second degree murder.

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

Connie had already declined the final interview with us and had been taken away to the jail.

[Narrator/Host]

But this time, Austin was ready to explain everything to investigators.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

Do you remember where you shot him?

[Neighbor Jason Grimm]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Host]

And later to 48 hours.

[Interviewer/Host]

And what do you do with his body?

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

I sling him over my shoulder and I walk into the forest.

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

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[Narrator/Host]

Just a click, and we've got ourselves a car. See so many cars.

[Prosecutor Sarah Wendorf]

That's a clicktastic inventory.

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

And check out the financing options payments to fit our budget.

[Narrator/Host]

I mean, that's Clickonomics101. Delivery to our door.

[Prosecutor Sarah Wendorf]

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[Narrator/Advertiser]

It is not hard to destroy a college. Last season, the podcast Campus Files brought you stories of fraternity drug rings, stolen body parts, campus cults, and more.

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

And now Campus Files is back for another season.

[Narrator/Host]

There's a guy screaming into his phone.

[Interviewer/Host]

He's like, I just saw Charlie Kirk

[Narrator/Host]

get assassinated right in front of me.

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

Every week is a new episode and a new story.

[Narrator/Host]

It was so chaotic.

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

It's almost like a university under siege.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Listen to and follow Campus Files, available now. Wherever you get your podcasts,

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

Was it you, your bond, that pulled the trigger?

[Narrator/Host]

For more than four hours, Austin Herbst was grilled about his role in his father's murder.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

What's it gonna be, Austin? Was it you or your mom?

[Narrator/Host]

Did you get the gun, Austin, yes or no?

[Radar (Cadaver dog handler)]

Is that fair to say that you Think that you protected her and you feel that you protected her that day, yes or no?

[Narrator/Host]

Finally, Austin broke.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

He said something to the effect of, I might as well tell you what I did. I said, austin, that's what we've been asking for.

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

On that day when my mom came

[Austin Herbst (Gary's son)]

home, he pull off the handle, swing, grabbed the gun.

[Narrator/Host]

Under the problem, Austin would tell investigators all about what happened that day. And now, for the first time, he is sharing his story with 48 hours.

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

My father, Gary Herbst, was vindictive to an extreme that I have never seen in anybody else. He was cruel, he was petty, he was violent.

[Interviewer/Host]

Did you reach an age in which you came to fear your father, or you felt like you were walking on eggshells very early?

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

I'd say by 6, 7 years old, that fear was present.

[Narrator/Host]

Austin says the emotional road he traveled that led to killing his own father was filled with acts of violence and abuse beginning when he was a boy, details he didn't share in earlier interviews with investigators.

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

He proceeded to put a cigarette out on my arm, and I screamed and cried and ran. I did something wrong, picked me up by my throat and threw me, like, down a flight of stairs.

[Narrator/Host]

Austin says his mother was treated even more brutally.

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

Terribly, unbelievably so. Physical abuse on a weekly, sometimes daily basis. Always demeaning, always negative.

[Interviewer/Host]

Did you ever see a time in which he drew blood from your mother, from striking her?

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

Yes. He punched her right in the face, pure black and blue. The next day, she had blood leaking from her mouth.

[Interviewer/Host]

Psychological abuse, physical abuse?

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

Yep.

[Interviewer/Host]

You swear on everything you believe in, and you're telling me the truth?

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

Absolutely.

[Narrator/Host]

Austin, just 19 years old when he murdered his father, recalls that tragic day, July 8, 2013.

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

The start of the day seemed very normal to me.

[Narrator/Host]

Austin remembers playing video games that afternoon when his dad returned home from work.

[Interviewer/Host]

Had he been drinking that day?

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

Yeah, he drank regularly, around about, I'd say. I think it was like two or three o'.

[Detective Jeff Nelson]

Clock.

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

My mom came home and she and him got into an argument about money. There was yelling. I tried my best to protect her. I am a wall. I will not let this continue.

[Narrator/Host]

Austin says his mom went to the public library.

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

My father at this point was laying on the couch half asleep. And as I walked out, I noticed that that skirting was, like, crumpled up. I lifted up the skirting, and I saw the firearm.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's a pistol. Yes.

[Narrator/Host]

Austin says his father had never brought a gun into the living room before.

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

In my heart of hearts, I knew that my mother's life was in danger and by extension, my own. It all just culminated like, oh, my God, he's going to kill her. All these thoughts ran through my head almost instantaneously. And I reached underneath the couch, I grabbed the gun, I pointed at him, and I pulled the trigger. You know, it was surreal, almost right like the bang went off, My hearing popped. And it was just immediately there was almost like a numbness.

[Interviewer/Host]

I've never asked this question in all my years on 48 Hours. What was it like to pick up that pistol, point it at your father's head and pull the trigger?

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

It broke me. It changed who I am irrevocably. I can never be the person I was or even the person I would have become had that never happened.

[Interviewer/Host]

But that moment, are you anguished over what you had done? Are you horrified?

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

There was a level of relief knowing that I would never again have to have that fear. Having to worry about my mother's life, Having to worry about my life.

[Narrator/Host]

Austin says he called his mother at the library and told her to come home.

[Interviewer/Host]

And how does your mom react to this scene?

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

Sort of the same way I did. Sort of just stunned.

[Narrator/Host]

Austin says he placed his father's body wrapped in a rug in the trunk of their car. They drove into neighboring Wisconsin.

[Interviewer/Host]

What do you encounter your mom talking about?

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

We aren't at that point. The adrenaline's still rushing. It's still fear.

[Narrator/Host]

About two hours later, Austin and his mom pulled onto a field next to a patch of trees. He says they dumped Gary's body at this spot and then fled.

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

I figured that wildlife would take care of the rest of the.

[Interviewer/Host]

What do you mean wildlife?

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

Take care of the bears, foxes. They would devour the body. The bones would be scattered. Nobody would know.

[Interviewer/Host]

That seems a bit barbaric.

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

Absolutely. I was not in the state of mind that I ever want to revisit. I was at the lowest I'd ever been, both in my emotions and in my humanity.

[Prosecutor Mike Grow]

We do have information that he was not a pleasant person to be around. But being an unpleasant person does not rise to the level of being a domestic abuser.

[Narrator/Host]

With no evidence Austin acted in self defense, prosecutors Mike Grow and Sarah Wendorf said Austin and Connie would be charged with second degree murder.

[Prosecutor Sarah Wendorf]

What Austin described as happening was not an emergency situation. It did not rise to a self defense offense.

[Interviewer/Host]

Your life while he was sleeping there on the couch was not under imminent threat. You didn't have to shoot him. This wasn't legally self defense. This was murder.

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

Correct.

[Narrator/Host]

And as prosecutors prepared for trial, they questioned whether there was more to Connie's role in Gary's killing than Austin had its admitted.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you at times wonder to yourself, could Connie have pulled that trigger as prosecutor?

[Prosecutor Mike Grow]

Of course I wonder about that.

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[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

I shot my father because if I hadn't, I would have been dead. My mother would have been dead.

[Interviewer/Host]

What are the options that his son could have done other than kill Gary?

[Prosecutor Mike Grow]

He could have grabbed the gun and left the house and told the police what had been going on.

[Narrator/Host]

Prosecutor Mike Rowe all of those things

[Prosecutor Mike Grow]

are possible and very doable except shooting him in the head, which is the last thing that a civilized person would supposedly do.

[Narrator/Host]

Once Austin Herbst confessed to killing his father, he agreed to plead guilty to second degree murder.

[Prosecutor Mike Grow]

It was what we call a straight plea, which means there was no promises made by the state as to what you would get.

[Narrator/Host]

Connie Herbs pleaded guilty to aiding an offender accomplice after the fact.

[Prosecutor Sarah Wendorf]

Austin said, yes, I was the one that killed my dad. And then that's when we decided Connie would be charged with the aiding an offender after the fact

[Narrator/Host]

without a trial. Prosecutor Sarah Wendorf says there were many unanswered questions about Austin and Connie's claims of physical abuse.

[Prosecutor Sarah Wendorf]

We have never seen any information to suggest that there was any abuse that Gary had committed against Austin or his wife.

[Prosecutor Mike Grow]

They never said anything until they were in trouble. And then they told these reasons why they were abused.

[Interviewer/Host]

The prosecutors in this case say, well, there's no real evidence that any of

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

this happened, of course, and I can't refute that. I can't refute that. There is no evidence that occurred. It is all hearsay.

[Narrator/Host]

Austin told 48 Hours he and his mom had never reported abuse to the police, friends, or extended family members because they feared for their lives at the hands of Gary.

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

I've been told, if you try to have me arrested, if you try to flee, if you try to, you know, go your own way, I will find you and kill you.

[Narrator/Host]

Another question for prosecutors involves Connie's whereabouts on the day of the murder.

[Interviewer/Host]

You said that your mom was at the library at the time that your father was shot, correct?

[Connie Herbst (Gary's wife)]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, prosecutors say investigators were never able to find evidence that that's true, that she was there. And they wonder if your mother was the one who killed your father and that you, as her protector, have told a story where you're taking the responsibility for something that she did.

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

My mom would never allow me to take a fall like that if she had done that.

[Interviewer/Host]

And I need to ask you that question. Did your mother, Connie, shoot and kill your father?

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

I'm telling you right now on everything on hold, dear. My mother did not shoot my father.

[Narrator/Host]

Prosecutors said a potential motive for Gary's murder was hate, illustrated by how Austin left his father's corpse in these woods to be eaten.

[Interviewer/Host]

That is inhuman.

[Narrator/Host]

That is barbaric inhumanity. That, at the time, seemed to have left Austin overjoyed.

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

I experienced more happiness afterwards than I had for my entire 18 years of living with him.

[Interviewer/Host]

You're having cookies with the neighbors while your father's corpse is being eaten by animals.

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

Yeah.

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

It was a strange dichotomy. It actually brought me a sense of almost shame that my happiness is on the feet of the ultimate act of violence. It still makes me wonder what kind of person I am, that that could have happened.

[Narrator/Host]

At Austin. Herp's June 2021 sentencing hearing at the scott county district court in Minnesota, prosecutors asked that he be sentenced to 30 years in prison.

[Prosecutor Mike Grow]

I made it clear to the judge that he deserved the highest sentence because of the callous way that he was killed and the body was treated.

[Narrator/Host]

But judge Caroline lennon said she found Austin's claims believable. In her ruling, she said, I find

[Narrator/Advertiser]

it credible that you believed that he

[Narrator/Host]

was going to kill your mom, and later said Austin felt an underlying obligation to protect his mother. He was sentenced to 12 years, 6 months and will be eligible for release in 2029.

[Prosecutor Mike Grow]

It's horrendous because if we allow that kind of justice to go, nobody's safe, because they'll say that I have been abused. That's why I did this.

[Narrator/Host]

Gary Herp's sister Linda seemed a bit overwhelmed.

[Linda Herbst (Gary's sister)]

12 and 8, that does not seem very relevant to someone's life. It seems very, very light.

[Narrator/Host]

Eight months later, Connie Herbst was back in court for her sentencing.

[Prosecutor Sarah Wendorf]

We also recommended for Connie the highest end of the guidelines sentence, which was 57 months.

[Interviewer/Host]

That would have been almost five years in prison.

[Neighbor Kaya Cramell]

Yes.

[Narrator/Host]

But the judge decided Connie would get two years and three months under Minnesota sentencing guidelines. She served just three months behind bars and was released in May of 2022.

[Neighbor Kaya Cramell]

I think that he was psychotic.

[Narrator/Host]

And back in the small town of Ed Elko, Newmarket, Minnesota, where the murder took place, a few of Gary Herp's former neighbors had hoped Austin and his mother Connie, wouldn't do any hard time for eliminating a man they considered a monster.

[Neighbor Kaya Cramell]

I felt sad because I didn't really want them to be caught.

[Neighbor Chad Cramell]

I don't feel that they're a danger to society.

[Narrator/Host]

Jason Grimm even had a message for Austin.

[Neighbor Jason Grimm]

I hope he's doing well, and when he gets out, please look us up. I'd like to help him in any way I can.

[Investigator/Interviewer]

Really?

[Neighbor Jason Grimm]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you feel, in a way, though, he got a 12 and a half year sentence. Was that too much?

[Neighbor Jason Grimm]

I think it's a little bit excessive. Hopefully he can pick up the pieces and move on with his life.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you believe that what you did was justified?

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

I believe that there are a lot of reasons why the act was justifiable.

[Interviewer/Host]

So under the same circumstances, you would still shoot him again?

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

I believe so.

[Interviewer/Host]

And when you get out, what do you want people to know about whether you will be a potential danger to society or a contributor to society?

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

My only goal in life is to leave something behind that's worth remembering. This isn't it. This isn't it. I want to leave behind a legacy other than I killed my father.

[Genetic Genealogist Robin Espenson]

I'm back.

[Neighbor Kaya Cramell]

I'm really back.

[Austin Herbst (Gary's son)]

School Spirits returns.

[Austin Herbst (continued testimony)]

Why am I here?

[Narrator/Host]

I'm not dead, right?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

This place is an absolute death trap.

[Special Agent Brent Peterson]

We need to get out of here now.

[Austin Herbst (Gary's son)]

School Spirits new season now streaming only on Paramount plus. Me and my brother, we grew up off the grid. A new Paramount plus original documentary explores the wild true story of two brothers.

[Linda Herbst (Gary's sister)]

They were dubbed the Wild Boys.

[Interviewer/Host]

There's no driving records, nothing tangible.

[Narrator/Host]

What's their story?

[Austin Herbst (Gary's son)]

Who shook a small town after they emerged mysteriously from the Canadian in wilderness.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Are they criminals?

[Prosecutor Sarah Wendorf]

Maybe they're in a cult.

[Narrator/Host]

Who are these guys?

[Investigator/Interviewer]

Why are they here?

[Neighbor Jason Grimm]

It's not my job, to tell you the truth.

[Austin Herbst (Gary's son)]

Wild Boys Strangers in Town now streaming on Paramount plus.