Budd from Philly Streets, 2 Years Later

Summary

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5CAST w/ Andrew Callaghan

Episode: Budd from Philly Streets, 2 Years Later
Release Date: October 26, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode launches Andrew Callaghan’s new “Where Are They Now?” series, with a deeply moving, unfiltered conversation between Andrew and his guest, Bud Rodney. Two years after being featured in Channel 5’s notorious “Philly Streets” documentary, Bud tells the full arc of his struggle with addiction, homelessness, and the devastating toll of tranq (xylazine/fentanyl) in Kensington, Philadelphia. The conversation addresses the realities of street life, overdose death, harm reduction, systemic reform, and personal recovery—culminating in Bud’s journey to sobriety post-amputation, and the hope he’s trying to pass on.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bud Rodney’s Background and Introduction

• Former State Corrections Officer Turned Addict
  Bud shares that he was once a Pennsylvania state corrections officer, became addicted to tranq, and ended up living homeless on the streets of Kensington with his girlfriend for over five years.

  “I was a state corrections officer for Pennsylvania and I ended up on the streets of Kensington. Doesn't care who you are, what you did, or what you want to be, there's no discretion.” (00:00, Bud)

• The “Invisible Line” of Addiction
  Bud powerfully describes crossing an “invisible line” into addiction, after which returning is almost impossible:

  "Once you pass this invisible line, you're an addict, you don't even know what happens. And then you can't ever cross back over." (00:03, Bud)

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2. Revisiting “Philly Streets” and the Impact of Tranq

• Recap of Past Interview
  Andrew recalls interviewing Bud for Channel 5’s “Philly Streets” (2023), focusing on the devastation of xylazine (tranq) in Philly.
• Health Effects of Tranq
  Tranq, a veterinary tranquilizer mixed with fentanyl, severely destroys the body, especially if injected incorrectly.

  "It's common... for tranq addicts to have lost limbs due to long term usage." (02:30, Andrew)
  Bud himself lost both feet to frostbite and xylazine-induced kidney failure.

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3. Surviving Kensington: Policy Changes, Street Life, and Injury

• Policy-Induced ‘Freezing Out’ (2024) Bud explains Mayor Sherrell Parker’s 2024 “Clean Up Kensington” plan:
  • Encampments dispersed, bans on tents/fires, police constantly moving people along.
  • The intent: “freeze out” homeless addicts.

  “They outlawed fires, tents... I said right from the start—they’re gonna freeze us out, you know, and it worked for a lot of people. Shit, it worked for me.” (05:19, Bud)

• Medical Crisis and Double Amputation
  • Kidney failure, tracheostomy, and then frostbite led to both feet being amputated.

  "My kidneys started to fail... ended up with xylazine induced nephrotic syndrome." (07:15, Bud)

  • “I lost circulation to my feet... So I'm actually in the process of getting prosthetics now. I took a couple of steps the other day, which was awesome. The best steps of my life, dude.” (15:07, Bud)
• Emotional Recovery & Perspective
  • Bud moves through grief to acceptance:

  "If I didn’t lose my feet, I would probably be dead… I chose to see the positive in it. I’m alive." (17:13, Bud)

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4. The Tolls of Addiction – Death, Loss, and Community

• Budd’s Losses
  • Many friends from the streets have since died, including during his brief stints of sobriety pre-Kensington.

  “We were losing two or three people every week... it was a massacre.” (19:29, Bud)

• From Sobriety and Law Enforcement to Relapse
  • Bud details his years as a sober CO, then the spiral: bereavement, stopping meetings and support, and gradual relapse.

  “My grandmother passed away, and that was kind of like a catalyst... I picked up, you know, I did some drugs, and I liked it, and nothing bad happened.” (22:23, Bud)

• Double Life: Secret Use as a CO

  "I'm looking this dude in the face and he's in there for, you know, a possession and paraphernalia for the third time. And like, you know, I got two bundles of dope hidden down the road underneath a patch of grass." (24:05, Bud)

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5. The Reality of Street Addiction

• Escalation to Selling, Arrest, and Total Homelessness
  • Selling dope to friends from sobriety meetings, getting caught, family conflict, and ultimately being forced onto the streets.
  • Describes multi-day binges, violence, betrayal, and cycles of hospital/rehab/relapse.

  “I've been to over 25 rehabs, probably close to as many hospital stays... I leave every time.” (35:22, Bud)

• Trauma and Violence
  • Vivid stories: Being jumped, nearly killed, the intoxicating camaraderie and danger, and the ever-present threat and shame.

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6. Recovery, Hope, and Harm Reduction

• Brittney’s Role and the Path to Sobriety
  • Bud’s girlfriend Brittany, herself a survivor, joined in the conversation to describe their early days, support, and now mutual recovery.
  • Both talk about survival guilt, supporting peers, and the unique bonds among homeless addicts.

    "You want better for them... it is possible, you know, that's the thing, is it is possible to do." (56:36, Bud)

• Critical View of Addiction Treatment Systems
  • Calls out the failures of the U.S. rehab model—profit-driven, brief, punitive, lacking aftercare or harm reduction.
  • Favors European models that assume relapse, provide continuous support, and integrate social reintegration.

  “I really believe it's a systemic issue... in the European system, relapse is assumed. So when you do it, the door's still open to say, all right, so what are we going to do now?” (84:39, Bud)

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7. Stigma, Systemic Reform, and Final Reflections

• Addiction as Mental Health, Not Moral Failing

  “It's treated like a moral issue in America... Some of the best people, the most intelligent people, even the most kind and caring people I’ve met were addicts.” (46:38, Bud)

• Perverse Incentives in Rehab & Medical Industry
  • Rehab as for-profit, minimal follow-up, focus on statistics over genuine progress.

  “The bottom line is the bottom line always.” (95:10, Bud)

• The Role of Harm Reduction & Outreach
  • Celebrates harm reduction workers, street-level compassion, and keeping doors open to recovery—contrasted with the transactional vibe of the rehab industry.
• Bud’s Message to Addicts and Families

  “Never give up hope. If you have a family member or loved one that's in addiction, just be there for him. It's tough, but never give up hope. God works in mysterious ways.” (39:01, Bud)
  “You can do it. You're not alone. Look at me. I lived on Kensington Streets for five and a half years, and now I'm sober and rebuilding a relationship with my family. So if that's something that you're going through... use me as an example.” (95:19, Bud)

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8. Looking Forward: Purpose, Writing, and Giving Back

• Writing a Memoir
  • Bud has written a memoir, Kensington Loss and Survival on the Streets of Philadelphia. (Now available on Amazon; link in show notes).
  • Hopes it will help people by telling the story “without glamorizing” or seeking “sympathy”—simply the unvarnished truth.
• Aspirations & the 'Third Life'

  “I'd like to go to school... I was thinking maybe computer science. Maybe even, do some kind of motivational speaking... let it be a lesson before it has to be a lesson.” (51:12, Bud)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the Moment He Chose Amputation for Survival:

  “I thought about it, I said, let's just do it, man. I'd rather just get a clean start with prosthetics and go from there.” (14:31, Bud)

• On the Freeze-Out Policy’s Lethal Results:

  “They outlawed fires, tents of any kind... They’re gonna freeze us out, you know, and it worked for a lot of people. Shit, it worked for me.” (05:19, Bud)

• On the Camaraderie of the Streets:

  “You huddle up to those dudes for warmth at night... You're literally like blood brothers at that point.” (84:18, Bud)

• On Guilt & Doing ‘Monster’ Things:

  “As far as being a monster—I’ve been one before… you never thought you would do to someone else, just for some powder in a bag. But the harm you cause isn’t.” (59:00, Bud)

• On Harm Reduction Philosophy:

  “It’s that balancing act of understanding that, like, I don’t really play a part in that piece of them getting to a place where they're willing to accept help. I don’t. I'm just gonna keep showing up and keep offering it…” (49:41, Andrew, citing Rob Bankhart)

• On Suboxone & Purity Stigma:

  “Purity contests kill... I'm on subs, you know, maybe I'm not clean, but I'm alive, you know.” (39:01, Bud)

• Summary of Addiction’s Insidious Pull:

  “Every new reel. It gives you that little bit. And for a lot of people, that's drugs and alcohol, but, you know, it doesn't have to come to that.” (53:14, Bud)

• On Systemic Reform:

  “America treats it like a win or lose situation... I think maybe a solution like Europe has is better... relapse is assumed.” (84:39, Bud)

• Sobering Statistic:

  “One person every five minutes—fentanyl overdoses in America.” (88:23, Bud)

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Important Segments (Timestamps)

• Bud Introduces Himself, His Backstory: (00:00–01:10)
• Tranq's Toll & The Freeze-Out Policy: (04:14–07:15)
• Medical Collapse, Infection, and Amputation: (07:15–17:13)
• Grief Over Friends’ Deaths: (18:42–20:53)
• Addiction Experiences as CO; Relapse Story: (22:20–30:48)
• Street Violence & Camaraderie: (58:00–84:18)
• Critique of US Rehab System & European Alternatives: (84:39–92:59)
• Memoir Discussion & Forward Plans: (51:12, 95:46–96:43)

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Tone & Language

Throughout the episode, the conversation stays candid, gritty, and deeply humane. Bud’s and Andrew’s language remains raw and often explicit, reflective of the unvarnished realities being discussed. Tough moments are delivered with dark humor, compassion, and absolute honesty—never glamorizing, often heartbreaking.

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Conclusion

“Budd from Philly Streets, 2 Years Later” is a must-listen for anyone interested in the realities of addiction, the failures and hopes of reform, and the ongoing human cost of America’s opioid crisis. Bud’s journey from law enforcement to addict to survivor and now author is told with a vulnerable authenticity rarely found in media. The episode stands out for its empathy, refusal to moralize, and insistence that hope—however dim—is never unwarranted.

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Bud’s new memoir, Kensington Loss and Survival on the Streets of Philadelphia, is available now. See the show notes for purchasing details.

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Channel 5. Channel 55. “We don’t fuck with custards. And 5 is the best number.” (96:41, Bud)

Transcript

[A]

I was a state corrections officer for Pennsylvania and I ended up on the streets of Kensington. Doesn't care who you are, what you did, or what you want to be, there's no discretion. You know, it's like an insidious thing, man, that once you pass this invisible line, you're an addict, you don't even know what happens, you know? And then you can't ever cross back over that line, you know, you can't go back. Start it over. Go ahead. Fuck, man. Hi, everyone. My name is Bud Rodney. We met a few years ago when I was in Kensington. I was there with my girlfriend for five and a half years and we were addicted to tranq. That addiction ultimately led me to the loss of both of my feet. Frostbite. And I'm in recovery now. And this is part of my story.

[B]

Ladies and gentlemen, good morning and welcome to the first episode of Channel 5's Where Are They Now? Series, which explores the current whereabouts of various people that I've had the pleasure of speaking to throughout the years. This series in particular is very important to us because the way that we see it, continuous coverage is a crucial element of proper reporting. Surveying a situation in the moment, particularly when it pertains to drugs. Crime, crisis or tragedy, is important, but more important are the solutions to the issues being covered. Which brings us to the story of Bud Rodney. Bud first appeared in a Channel 5 video called Philly Streets around two years ago. What's your name?

[A]

Bud.

[B]

How long you been out here?

[A]

Almost four years.

[B]

You got any plans of getting off the streets?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I do. If I'm being truthful, I'm probably going to have to get arrested to stop, you know, but when I do, when I do get arrested, it's at that point, you know, I'd like to move forward into sobriety.

[B]

One of the dominant themes in that report regarded the adverse health effects of a newly circulated drug called Xylazine, AKA Tranq, a cheap animal tranquilizer used by local drug dealers to enhance the strength of fentanyl.

[A]

So Xylazine is like tranquilizer, not made for human consumption, it's made for animals.

[C]

That'S made it into the drug supply.

[D]

I mean, it's been here for six.

[C]

Years, but we're seeing it a lot more now.

[B]

Unique about tranq is its ability to wreak havoc on the human body, particularly if veins were missed during injection. It was common, as we saw in Kensington, for tranq addicts to have lost limbs due to long term usage. And I've been told that many of the people that I spoke to down in Philly have passed away since the interviews were conducted. But Bud made it out, and his story is one I'll never forget. Viewer discretion is advised. Well, thanks for joining us, man. I appreciate it.

[A]

Of course. How long has it been since I've been down there? I left in February.

[B]

But how long since we saw each other?

[A]

I mean. Oh, shit, we saw each other in 2023. So I think sometime in the summer of 2023. These wounds, they don't heal, man. I've had this on my leg for, like, over a year. Over a year? Same size, man.

[B]

Have you attempted to get any, like, health care for it?

[A]

Nothing official, you know, but I do take care of it, you know? Hi, Mom. I'm okay. Love you.

[B]

Thanks, man. I appreciate it, and I wish you the best, man. Thanks for talking to us.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Thanks, bro.

[B]

What was your last name?

[A]

It's Rodney.

[B]

Thanks, bro. I appreciate it.

[A]

I didn't even know who you were at first. You know, like, after the fact, I realized I was like, I. Like, I know the dude from somewhere. You know, I've seen your stuff before, but on the street, you know, in the haze, I was like, yeah, it's just another guy wants to do an interview. A couple people down there do that. You know, there's faces at Kensington. He does that, Frank, and, you know, he just gets people's stories. But what I like about him, same as you, is, you know, it's all under consent, you know? Do you want to do this? If you do, you know, you're welcome to. If not, I'm not gonna film you, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

What's happened since then, you know? How has your life unfolded?

[A]

Well, since 2023? Mayor Sherrell Parker moved in in 2024, and she put in her cleanup Kensington plan. So that kind of dispersed us, you know. There were big encampments all along Kensington Avenue, all along Clearfield, Ruth Street. You know, they were everywhere. And with her directive, they actually. They made a pretty big difference down there. We weren't happy about it, of course, you know, but I'm sure the neighbors were. We started getting bounced around, and it was really like a war of attrition. You know, they'd move us from one corner back to the other one, back and forth every day, all day long, till, you know, they're just trying to wear us out. So from K and A, you know, you had people that moved over towards, like, G and Potter. Hell, I forget what the street is, but it's right across From Allegheny Station, there's a little side street, you know, people moved over there. But even there, even in those spots, they would still bounce you, you know, because they put beat cops on you. Guys gotta go. That was really their only goal, is not arrest, you know, not to jam us up. Just, if they're there, they gotta move. And they did that for all of 24. They outlawed fires, tents of any kind, even big umbrellas. So I said it right from the start. I said, you know, if they're doing that stuff now, because that rule came about earlier in the year, and we had all heard about it, you know, no fires allowed this winter, that kind of stuff. So they're gonna freeze us out, you know, and it worked for a lot of people. Shit, it worked for me, you know? Yeah.

[B]

In what sense?

[A]

Got frostbite and lost my feet. Yeah, that was in December, actually, I guess, really January, but it really started in December. So what happened is my kidneys started to fail, right? So my face was swelling up like crazy. I can show you some pictures. You know, I don't even look like myself. And I went to the hospital for it because everybody down there was like. Even the cops, man. The cops walked up to me the one day, they're like, you. But I was like, yeah, why? You know, and they're like, people are worried about you. Like, the people on the cameras are watching. Like, they think you're gonna die. Your mom's looking for you, you know, I guess word had gotten around because.

[D]

They have cameras in Philly. So I know where he was, and I do the look at the cameras. And then when I talked to him, he'd look at the camera, knowing that I was watching him. Of course, we went down. And they were bad. It was bad. It was bad.

[A]

You're not supposed to be here. If.

[D]

But if he didn't lose his legs, he would not be with us right now. He was so full of infection, he wouldn't have made it. He had been gone. He'd been gone months ago. There was just no way. His body was done. His mind wasn't done, but his body was done. His body could not take anymore.

[A]

You know, they asked me to go to the hospital. I said, no, I'm not going. I'm not going. It even went so far as a cop actually offered me money. He's like. He's like, do you need money to get well or something so that. So that you'll go? I was like, I appreciate the offer, but no. And that went on for a couple of Weeks. It got to the point where I couldn't even open my eyes. I had to, like, pry my eyes open to see. They were so swollen. Swollen shut from my body retaining water, which I found out shortly after when I went to the hospital, is called xylazine induced nephrotic syndrome. So nephrotic syndrome is a kidney disease where your body doesn't process proteins in the proper way. It causes water retention and essentially is poisoning your body. You know, you can't process toxins. So I went to the hospital eventually because they didn't give up on it every time they saw me. You ready to go? Yeah. You're ready to go? Yeah. So eventually I said yes. And while I was in the hospital, this was in December, right before Christmas, I went to the hospital and my face started to swell up even more. So while in the hospital, I don't know why. If it was maybe just a reaction to, like, no longer being in stress, like my body was overcompensating or something, you know, just being out of the cold. And they had to trach me. So I have a trach wound on my neck here. You see that?

[B]

And what is that process?

[A]

That's a tracheostomy. What they do is essentially put a plastic tube in your neck so you can breathe. Okay. Yeah.

[B]

Because your throat had swollen up so much that no air was coming out, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. My throat is swollen swole shut. So they did that. I woke up four days later from a medically induced coma. I didn't even know any time had passed. Woke up, I couldn't talk. I was thirsty. Can't have water because you essentially have to learn how to swallow again. So, you know, I'm like, I'm thirsty, you know, I couldn't. Couldn't talk. And like, you can't. You can't have anything. They gave me a sponge, you know, sponge with some water dipped on it. And I could only have that, like, every couple of hours.

[B]

Geez.

[A]

Yeah, it was rough. It was rough. I was sick when I was woke up because they were giving me the bare minimum. So I told them I need meds. I asked them to call my mom. You know, I could be like, I don't want to say that I'm a jerk in the hospital. I can just be demanding, I guess. You know, I'm not rude. But, you know, I tell them, like, you know, this is your job. You gotta, you know, like, I'm sick, man. You know, give me, give me stuff.

[B]

It's understandable in the position that you were in.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. You know, it's the mindset, really. You know, it's where you're at. I had them call my mom. I told her, I want to leave. I was writing on a pad, you know, and they were reading it off to her. And that went on for a couple of days. She came down to visit me, actually, she took some time off work, came down to visit me.

[D]

The doctors called me because they had to do a blood transfusion. They had to ask my permission because he was in a medically induced coma for four days, which he doesn't remember, but of course he doesn't. And they had to call me for permission. So, of course, then I went down.

[A]

For that from there, you know, when she had to go, I decided I did as well. And when she left, I went back out to the streets, and I had a trach in my throat. You know, I told the doctor I want to leave. He's like, are you serious, man? I was like, yeah, I'm serious, you know? He's like, you're gonna die. And I told him, I'll be fine, but signed the AMA papers against medical advice and left.

[D]

We had to go home. Don had work, I had work, and we weren't even out of Philly when he left the hospital.

[A]

Honestly, I could hardly even walk, and, like, my brain was in, like, such a fog at that time. It actually took me, like, five hours to get from Temple Hospital down in Kensington. I kept getting turned around and, like, confused. That's like a symptom with the tranq is, like, confusion, you know, you just don't know what's going on, really. Eventually, I made it back down there, you know, Everybody on the street was like, what are you doing, dude? Like, are you trying to kill yourself? So I'm not really trying to live, you know? And I think that that stress on my body from that whole situation is what really pushed it over the edge, because I was weak to the point after being out there with the trach in that, it started to get infected. I was injecting in my neck, and to do that, you have to blow, but I couldn't blow because I had this hole in my neck. So I was, like, missing shots. So then the trach itself was infected. I had abscesses all over my neck. I would, like, almost pass out just standing up. It'd be totally winded crossing the street. And I was sleeping next to my girlfriend the one night it was bitter cold. And I woke up in the morning, and my feet were uncovered from the blankets that we had, so I think they got uncovered while I was asleep somehow. And the next night, we stayed in the shelter, and I didn't really notice anything, you know, the day after. But when we stayed in the shelter, I took my shoes off. I tried to put them back on in the morning. They wouldn't fit in my shoes. So they had, like, ballooned overnight from the frostbite damage. I didn't even realize I had it yet, but when I tried to stand up, I really couldn't. We got on a bus to leave, and they were taking us back to a train stop. It took me two hours to go 100 yards. You know, I had to lean all my weight on Brittany to. To even cross the street. I was just in rough shape. And I stayed out on the street for another day. And I went to the hospital. I flagged some cops down, and I said, look, guys, I need some help. You know, I said, my. My trach's infected badly. There's something wrong with my feet. Like, can you call an ambulance for me? And they were actually like, didn't we just try to get you into the hospital and you didn't want to go? And I'm like, look, man. Like, yeah, but that doesn't matter. Like, I'm asking you now. So the one cop, he shined his flashlight at my neck, and he was like, oh, my go. He said, that's bad. He said, I'm calling, man. You know, he told his partner that he's calling. Ambulance came. I couldn't walk. When I got to the hospital, they took a look at my neck, and I told them, you know, I think there's something wrong with my feet, too. And when they took my shoes off and they took my socks off, and my socks were actually, like, stuck to my skin. And when they took it off, the nurse just was like, oh, my God. I was like, what? You know, and I looked down, and my feet were gigantic, covered in blisters. The skin was, like, dark purple, bruised, and just, you know, destroyed from the frostbite. I didn't even really know that I had it until that moment. I knew something was wrong, but not how bad. And she said, she's like, you're gonna lose your feet. And, you know, I could just think, like. Like, I hope not. You know, that's it. It was like, it can't be that bad. You know, it was, like, immediate denial. But it went on to. To prove that, no, I had severe frostbite. I lost circulation to my feet. He started to turn Black. I started to get infected and the doctor came in one day and he told me that I have a choice to make, you know, and he said, we can do surgery on your feet if you want, but it's probably going to take a long time. It's going to be a lot of pain, and it's no guarantee in the end, he said, you know, you have a really bad case here. He let me sit with that for a couple of days. And he came in and he was like, you know, we can do the amputation if you want. And I told him, you know, I thought about it, I said, let's. Let's just do it, man. You know, I'd rather just get a clean start with prosthetics and go from there because they told me even if the surgeries went well, I was most likely going to have severe nerve damage. You know, I might have dead feet, you know, so like, no feeling in them. I didn't want that either. You know, it's almost as bad as not having them. So I'm actually in the process of getting prosthetics now. I took a couple of steps the.

[B]

Other day, which was with the full prosthetic legs.

[A]

Yeah. Which was awesome. Yeah. The best steps of my life, dude. For real.

[C]

Plopping to the bottom.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

So that's a good start.

[A]

So let's do it. Ready? One, two, stand. Okay. It kind of takes a second to, like, kind of get used to it, so try to put a little bit more weight on as it goes. Legs are pretty sick, right?

[D]

Yeah. Wow.

[A]

Oh, good job. How'd I do? So they, they gave me the ultimatum. I told them I want the amputations and, you know, I called my mom and told her what's going on. She took time off of work, came down to visit me in the hospital. They went through with it. Worst pain of my life.

[B]

You weren't sedated for it?

[A]

Well, I was, but when I woke up, it was just like, just like mind numbing pain, dude. Like, just like, what is happening? You know, coming out of the surgery was like crazy. And then the dressing changes, like on the raw. The raw nerves. So what they do first is they take your feet off at the ankles and they do that to make sure that your body's going to respond well, because if it doesn't and they do the. It's called the formal amputation. They might have to move higher, you know, if there's a bad reaction or something. So they start at your ankles, check how you're doing if it goes well, then they move. Move into the next stage, which is the formal amputation here.

[B]

And that's below the knee.

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's called a bka Below knee amputation. So I'm a double bka. The prosthetist told me he's, like, the higher up it is, he's like, the more energy that your body actually expends trying to, like, adjust to it. So he said, you know, this is best case scenario for an amputation, which is cool. You know, like, in the hospital, I didn't know how I was going to, like, deal with all of it mentally, you know, Like, I had the. The identity stuff, you know, Like. Like, this wasn't supposed to happen to me. This isn't who I am. You know, the stages of grief, you know, what is it? Denial, anger, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, you know? Yeah, I went. I went through all that, like, kind of before the surgery even, you know, in the denial, like, this isn't going to happen, the bargaining, like, what can I do to maybe try to fix this? And then afterward, I was angry, I was depressed, you know, and then finally, like, I just accepted, like, all right, so this. This is. This is reality, and I'm going to face reality, you know, so that's. That's what I did, you know, I set my mind to it. Like, I'm not going to get into this negative downward spiral and, you know, be all woe is me. Because, like, the bottom line is if I didn't lose my feet, I would probably be dead. And that's the truth. You know, where. Where my body was at the time was giving up totally. You know, my kidneys were failing. I had cirrhosis of the liver, which, since I've gotten my hepatitis C cured, I took the medication. So I did that when I got home. I said, I'm not. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna be that guy, you know, who's just, you know, down on himself all the time. So I chose to see the positive in it. I'm alive. Yeah. I'm still here, man. You know, there's a lot of people that aren't for, you know, much less than something like this, you know? Yeah.

[B]

So you think a lot of the people that you were with on the street that, you know, you were with Whenever I first met you have a lot of people passed away?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. She's just recently. My friend Bryce passed away a couple of months ago. I stayed with him here and there down in Kensington. Bailey just died a Couple of weeks ago, the end of July. My best friend growing up, Jay, he's not from down there, but, you know, I've known him since I was four years old. He just died the end of July. Went to his memorial. His mom was a mess. And God bless her, dude, she lost her two other kids as well. To overdoses. Yeah, J. Patrick and Matthew, they were my best friends growing up, you know, like, I lived with them, I went on vacations with them, the whole deal. And they're all gone now from addiction. There was nice. Just died. Well, I don't know if he just died. I actually just found out, though, that he was either killed or overdosed. I'm not sure which. Just I know that he passed away, Mike. I was the last person to hit him before he went to the hospital. So, you know, essentially the last person from Kensington that saw him alive. He died from sepsis, you know, blood infection. They couldn't get it under control and it killed him. Yeah, I mean, there's a list this long, I couldn't even tell you how many people. And that was even before Kensington, you know, when fentanyl came out. It was a massacre. It was a massacre, dude. We were losing two or three people every week because I was sober at the time, so I was sober in my life for five years at one point, two years. Right after that, a year and a half. And when I was sober during that time is also when fentanyl really hit, at least on. On the East Coast. And it destroyed us, man. You know, like I said, we were losing people two or three every week for, I don't know, seven or eight months before people, like, realize that they can't do it, you know, or they got to drastically reduce their dose. Yeah, fentanyl is crazy strong, man. It's crazy strong. Yeah. During that. That time sober, I tried to help people in the area, like around here as best as I could. I was like a pillar of sobriety in the community, you know. And during that time is also when I became a CEO. Oh, shit. Yeah.

[B]

At a county or state prison.

[A]

State prison? Yeah. I worked at Sci, Dallas.

[B]

Is that medium security?

[A]

Yeah, it's medium security. Doesn't really mean much. It just. It's more open, you know, there's more contact between inmates and guards and stuff. But, you know, it's. It's really all the same, from what I understand.

[B]

I knew that you were sober prior to Kensington, but I didn't know that you had that straight laced of an employment path.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the opposite of.

[B]

Being on the streets.

[A]

Quite the opposite. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess it kind of gives me a unique perspective in a way. I guess, you know, it's considered law enforcement, you know, at one point. And then going into, you know, living homeless on the streets for years was like, just, like, crazy, like, juxtaposition, you know, that I was, like, dealing with mentally. And, you know, I had relapsed while I was working at the prison, so I was about a year and a half sober. My grandmother passed away, and, you know, I had become complacent in my sobriety, so I wasn't going to meetings. You know, I wasn't doing commitments, like speaking at rehabs and stuff, wasn't calling my sponsor. I wasn't working the steps. And that eventually caught up to me. I started hanging out with, you know, people I shouldn't, hanging out in bars. I wasn't even doing anything. You know, I was just going there just to hang out and be in the environment. Risky behavior, if you're sober. Wouldn't advise, you know. But, yeah, was doing that. And eventually it caught up to me. My grandmother passed away, and that was kind of like a catalyst, you know, that was what. What solidified it.

[B]

And I came using as a coping mechanism to deal with the grief.

[A]

Yeah, gotcha. Yeah, I picked up, you know, I. I did some drugs, and I liked it, and nothing bad happened. You know, the whole world didn't come crashing down around me. There weren't any police lights or sirens, and I was cool. I was like, all right, nice. You know, I remember thinking, like, this is why I did this every day, because, you know, drugs feel good. That's the lie, though. You know, they feel good at first, but they take everything. But, yeah, no. So I relapsed while working at the jail. So I was doing dope before I went in. I didn't bring anything into the jail, so I didn't get high there. I didn't bring stuff in for the inmates, but some of them did. They knew. They knew that I was getting high. A couple of them, like, asked me, like. Like, rodney, you got to be on something, man. Like, we know you're. You're doing something, like, mind your business. You know, eventually even my. My co workers started to catch on because, you know, not doing anything for that long. Fentanyl doesn't last very long in your body, at least as far as the effects go. So I would start to get sick relatively quickly compared to, like, how heroin.

[B]

Is dope sick from withdrawal.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, dope sick from withdrawal while on shift.

[B]

So you'd be throwing up in the.

[A]

Bathroom, throwing up, sweating, you know, generally miserable all the time. And I would actually, I would hide my stuff off property just because in case anyone did get suspicious, they can search your vehicle if you work there, you know, So I would hide my stuff off the property, get out of jail, off shift, and go and. And do my stuff right down the street from the jail, man. Like, I felt like the biggest hypocrite in the world. Yeah, you know, totally. Yeah.

[B]

Especially because so many people in county and state prisons are there for drug related disease.

[A]

Oh, my God. Yeah. I'm looking this dude in the face and he's in there for, you know, a possession and paraphernalia for the third time. And like, you know, I got two bundles of dope hidden down the road underneath a patch of grass. You know, it's like, man, what am I doing here? And instead of bringing clarity from that, I think it almost compounded it more because then I felt guilty about what I was doing, so I wanted to cover it more, you know, so my habit increased even more. So it got to the point where I was shooting 15 bags of fentanyl per shot, like three times a day. Do it before work as soon as I got out, and then sometime during the night, you know, stealing like $200 in dope a day, just myself. That's when Brittany caught up with me. She had relapsed and asked me if. If I could get her anything.

[B]

So just to clarify, you and Brittany were together when you were a CEO, when you lived around here?

[A]

So we were friends. So we were friends in sobriety for like four years before we ever even, you know, started dating, which was cool. She actually tried to help me during one of my first relapses. When I relapsed after five years, she called me, was like, what are you doing, dude? You're gonna die. You know, this and that. And she tried to. Tried to save me. And actually I did. I got sober right after that. But, you know, we can. We can cover that. But, yeah, no. So I started selling drugs to her. I was meeting her in my uniform, you know, selling dope. Like, craziness, man. And then eventually it. It all caught up to me. I was staying at my grandmother's house. I had moved out from. I was. I was living in Wilkes Barre. I moved down. I told her what was going on. She said, come home, you know, maybe I can help you. She had tried to do that before. So I took some boxes like, eight hours after I'd done my last shot, which is fine with heroin, but it's not fine with fentanyl. It reacts in your system differently. And I went into something called precipitated withdrawal. I don't know if you ever heard of it, but it's essentially withdrawal condensed into like, six hours instead of, like five days. Absolutely vicious. Puking, diarrhea, shivers, shakes, convulsions, sweating, cramps, just everything that can happen at once, happening at once and amplified, you know, like, withdrawal in itself is terrible, but, you know, condense that into a couple of hours is like, what. What's even happening, you know, so that's what happens if you take Suboxone too soon after Fentanyl. So, yeah, I'm laying on the bathroom floor naked. You know, my grandma comes in and she's like, what the hell's going on? I told her. They called my parents. It was a whole thing. And that's when I decided, like, you know what? All right, I. I've had enough of this. Because that was the whole point of taking the sub was I had a long weekend, and I was like, I'm tired of doing this. I'm going to get clean. So I took the Suboxone with good intentions in mind, but it didn't work out that way. So I realized later that night that I had insurance. And I'm like, all right, so I'm going to go to rehab. So I decided to go to rehab, walked out a couple of days later, AM8. And shortly after that, I caught a charge. Britt and I had started going down to Philadelphia to cop. And I went down one night by myself, and I parked in a parking lot and did drugs all night. And on my way home, a cop lit me up for speeding. It was ironic because I was speeding a bunch of coke, and I was out of my mind. Yeah. And I decided, I'm gonna run, you know. So he was a state trooper. Yeah. So. So I ran. He caught up to me right away. The initial plan was to, you know, try to disappear before he could get me. He was parked. I was going fast.

[B]

And in your head, you're like, I got this.

[A]

I got this. Yeah. So he caught up to me in, like, 10 seconds. Yeah, yeah. Oh, let me grab a cigarette. Yeah, he caught up to me in, like, 10 seconds, dude. And I'm like, all right, plan B. So plan B was run down to Shikshini. You guys probably came through there. And when you first come into the town from Route 11, there's a road off to the right, this windy road, very narrow. And I knew it like the back of my hand. So I'm like, all right, so here's the plan. I'm going to go down Route 11, be going fast. So he thinks I'm just going to run straight through, slam on the brakes, cut the turn. He's going to go past me. I'm going to go up the road and disappear. Perfect. So I'm doing 125 down Route 11 the whole way. It's like 10 miles, you know, I'm swerving around, cars crossing lanes. And I get into Shikshini. And it worked, right? So I hit the brakes, cut the turn. He hits his brakes and slides past me. So he's got to turn around and do the whole thing. So I'm going up the road, I'm like, yeah, I made it. I get to the top and there's a. A giant oak tree in the road with two concrete barriers in front of it. Yeah. So I was, I was stuck. And I thought about getting out and running, but honestly, I was too spun out. So I was like, you know what? Fine, I'm caught. He comes up the road. I had already gotten out and put my hands on my head. He came over, kicked me in the head. He was pissed. Yeah, he kicked me in the head, cuffed me. And they saw my duty belt in the back seat, which is like your work belt that you wear for the jail, you know, holds your radio and your pepper spray and stuff. So they're like, what's with the duty belt? You cop what up? Like, what's up? I was like, no, I'm CEO. Like where? I don't really want to tell you. They're like, we're gonna make one call and find that. Anyway, dude, where do you work? So I told them, dallas, you know, they gave me the. What the hell are you doing, man? You know? Cause they were stadies too. So there's like a sort of camaraderie, right?

[B]

Yeah, you know, same field of employment, Coworkers, kinda.

[A]

Yeah. Flung in a way. You know, they catch em, we keep them. You know, I just told him, like, I relapsed a while ago and I'd been getting high the whole time. That was probably about a year into getting high. That was May of 2020 that that happened. And I had been going back and forth to Kensington before that for a couple of months, copping. And, you know, I got arrested. I bonded out with my motorcycle. I had thrown my drugs out on the street I ran down got those on my bike as soon as I got home. And then everything blew up. You know, it went into the papers and, you know, it spread around. So at that point, I was really kind of giving up on the idea of being a CO anymore. You know, like just the whole weight of everything was getting to me. I just didn't really know how to exit. It was probably more of a self implosion, I guess you could say. I don't know how to put it.

[B]

There's probably some embarrassment too, that came from having your name in the paper. CO caught with drugs, caught, like in a high speed chase is pretty good. Pretty good news for the tabloids.

[A]

Yeah. And in a small town like this, you know, that, that was definitely big news. So I'm at home a couple days later, I get a call and it's from the jail. I knew the call was coming. They're like, we need you to meet us here and take a drug test. I can't. My car's impounded. They're like, all right, well, we'll get you. So they came, picked me up, went gave him a drug test. They called me back in a couple of days later, went to the jail, and they gave me an ultimatum. Go to rehab or get fired. So the union is strong in Pennsylvania with cos. So you know those guys have that going for them. So the union was backing me up. If I went to rehab and completed, I'd be on a year of probation at the jail where, you know, they have a set of rules. They can drug test you anytime, search you anytime, whatever. And I went to the prison, or rather I went to the rehab and walked out like four days later. And I knew what I was even behind when I did it.

[B]

You just weren't feeling it. You didn't like the structure of it.

[A]

It wasn't even anything because all rehabs are pretty much the same. I was just like, I didn't want to be clean and just the whole stress of everything was like just driving me crazy, you know. And at that time, I was actually. I was on FMLA from the jail. Family Medical Leave act and gives you time off, paid time off without pay for, you know, medical emergencies, whatever. So I walked out of the jail, came back to my parents here, got my car, went right to Kensington and got shit. I stole money off my mom so I could go cop. I was looking for my grandma's pills and I found her jewelry and I started selling her jewelry. So I took all of her jewelry, which was really Shitty, you know, it was a bad move.

[D]

The jewelry that my dad had gotten me since I was younger and I.

[A]

Had lost my dad, it was 18 karat stuff. So you can't really get that in the US even. I mean, you can, I guess, but it's more common overseas generally.

[D]

So he took it. He took it all. All of it. And it was a dilemma, you know, of course I was crying and, you know, they're like, you know, call the police. And I, you know, you don't want to call the police. You don't, you know, that wasn't my thing. And they're like, he's not going to get better if you don't do something. So then we call the police. And it ended up being almost like $33,000 worth of jewelry he took.

[A]

Yeah, it was a lot. And then shortly after that, there was like a big blow up with my family. I was not welcome back here. So I was like, all right, you know what? Fine. Like, go into. I got a place I can go, you know, which was Kensington. So I went down there. Me and Britt went down. We stayed in my car for a while. I mean, it was what it was for a while. We were staying on a block. And then one night I got into a fight with some people. They jumped us, me specifically. But they punched Britt, she pepper sprayed them. We jumped in my car. I tried to run the dude over. He jumped out of the way and I popped my tire. And when we got back to the place where I parked, that was essentially the end of my car. I don't think I ever moved it again from that point. I had a flat tire, no money to get a new one. I already had a donut on another wheel. And the neighbors got tired of us being there. So I woke up one morning with my car on fire. Someone had set it on fire while we were asleep. They lit my head rest on fire. So I woke up and there were like flames around my head. So I woke Britt up, told her, car's on fire, get out. And I went to try to pat it out with my hands. I wasn't thinking, you know what I mean? Foam is melted plastic, man. It stuck to my hands instantly. Second and third degree burns over both my hands. You know, I like went into shock, called the ambulance, I went to temple. I was in the burn unit for a couple of days, walked out. Ama. I mean, that's like a resounding motif in my life is leaving rehab or the hospital after a couple of days.

[D]

You know, I Mean, detox rehab. Detox rehab. 20 years of this. Of my life has been pretty much real.

[A]

I'm alive. So I started using drugs when I was 14.

[D]

So, yeah, no, I'm going to say about. I'm gonna say about 18, because I really didn't know about this stuff from the beginning.

[A]

Yeah. Know something I was kind of curious about. I don't know if I ever asked you, but, like, when I started, like, using drugs, did you guys, like, have any idea?

[D]

No. No clue. None. You were just a brat.

[A]

I've been to over 25 rehabs, probably close to as many hospital stays, you know, and I leave every time. I would have left this last time. Honestly, I wanted to, but I couldn't. I just want to make a side note. So I wrote a book about all this, so you know what I mean. I don't know if that's all right.

[B]

We'll put it in the description box and the pinned comment of this video if people want to buy it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's not out yet, but it should be probably by the time this comes out.

[B]

Okay, cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's going to be an ebook, I'm assuming.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So I'll put it on Amazon, but I cover all this stuff in it. Yeah. So it all caught up to me.

[D]

If he wouldn't have lost his legs, we would have lost him. There was just. No, really, as I sit here right now, there's no way he would have made it. There's just no way. I know it. I see it. I saw it in his wounds. I saw it in his face, his hands, his legs. I just saw it in him that there was just no way his body was done.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I. I was diagnosed with cirrhosis. Yeah. Yeah. I had hep C, which I've, you know, taken the meds for that. So I'm. I'm cured of that now. And I've been sober since February 16th, I think. When I finally got out of the hospital, they said if I was strong enough to leave, I could. I could go home. So they did the. The test. If I could, like, transfer myself, I was able to. So my mom called my dad, asked if I could come home. She said, yeah. So before we left, I went down to Kensington to see Britt and to get high one more time before I left. You know, it was, like, kind of something I had to do, like, mentally, you know, just to, like. I don't know, I guess put. Put some closure on it. Right. You know, So I did that. We came back Here. And since I got home, I've been doing really well, you know, I'm really proud of myself for that. Actually. This is the longest that I've been sober in seven years, you know, I don't know, eight or nine months. Honestly, I'm not really counting the days this time because I was expecting to die. So, you know, being able to wake up here and, you know, so we'll play this game. We call it Anybody tell you, Right? And the goal is to get that. You say, anybody tell you to that person the first time, that means I love you. Means anybody tell you I love you today? You know, and we play every day and it's nice.

[D]

Yeah. And him and Jim, it's like it'll be one second after midnight and they're both yelling at each other.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. We'll try to sneak up on each other. Yeah.

[D]

It's just the thing that they do. And our thing and my always thing with him was whenever we were getting ready to hang up on the phone, and I love you lots and lots, lots and lots. And my biggest thing was what?

[A]

Don't get dead.

[D]

Don't get dead. That's verbatim. That was it. You know, I love you lots and lots and don't get dead. He's like, I won't, Mom.

[A]

You know, Never give up hope. If you have a family member or loved one that's in addiction, just be there for him. It's tough, but never give up hope. God works in mysterious ways. For example, my son. It's easy to be cruel behind a computer screen, you know, and you see a lot of nasty comments. Well, let the guy die, you know, or involuntary lethal injection or something. Just kill him, Brian. Why did it have to get to this point, right? I look at it like this. Like purity contests kill. And what I mean by that is, like in aa, you know, it's. Or na. It's. How much time you got? Are you on Suboxone? Oh, if you're on Suboxone, you're not really clean. I'm on subs, you know what I mean? And maybe I'm not clean, but I'm alive, you know that. That's for sure. And I don't want to use drugs today.

[B]

Suboxone strips are an opioid addiction treatment and do not cause a high for opioid users. But if you're not an opioid user.

[A]

It can cause a high. So, you know, that's what I mean by the contested purity, man. It just, you know, somebody might say, oh, Well, I need to get off subs then. And then they get a craving and do go do some fentanyl and overdose and die, you know, because of somebody else's opinion. So I'm not really. I'm not even really counting the days like that. I'm just. Just been working steady on writing for, like, I don't know, six months now, seven months, you know, that's been my main focus. But since I got home, you know, I started going to drug and alcohol treatment. I started going to mental health therapy, took the medication for the hepatitis C. I got on subs. I had a corrective surgery on my right leg. I got an infection after I got home from the hospital, and I had to get that taken care of. Like, if I was on the street, I never would have done that, you know, it would have just festered and I probably would have an above the amputation. Amputation now, you know, because you just. You don't care. I've seen. Seen that so many times down there. You know, people with amputations, like, they end up back out there. I told myself it's not going to be me. Like, I look at it like Suboxone is a crutch for sure, but, you know, crutches are handy if you have a broken leg.

[D]

And really he had to do it on his own. Whether he lost his legs or not, he could have just said, no, mom, I'm going down. It's going to be what it's going to be. You know, life goes on. He made that decision when he looked at me, because I had to go home that day. I mean, I had to go home. I could have stayed another week, but I wasn't prepared. But it would have been fine. I would have. And he's like, no, mom, I'm coming home with you.

[B]

I'm just really surprised you were able to successfully take that final time of getting high and somehow still get sober after that. Because that sounds like a recipe for a long term relapse.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, you're like, I'm just gonna get high once more. Like, how many times have you said that before?

[A]

Probably about a million. Yeah, about a million.

[B]

So what was it about this particular situation in this time that really made you feel like, all right, I'm ready. Let's do this. I'm leaving Philly. I'm going to come out to the beautiful northeast Pennsylvanian foothills and take this sobriety seriously.

[A]

When I got home, that wasn't really my mindset, to be honest with you. Okay. In the back of my mind. You know, I wanted to get high every day, all day long. I just wasn't able to, you know, I wasn't able to do it physically. That's what. That's what I mean by this, you know, save my life. Like, I would definitely be in Kensington right now if this didn't happen. You know, I can tell you that probably without a shadow of a doubt or dead, you know, one of the two, I probably would not be sober. But, you know, when I came home and as time went on, my mind started to clear and, you know, going to the mental health and the drug and alcohol counseling every week, week, and the Suboxone clinic, you know, they have a kind of a social worker that you talk to there, someone who's sober. I just had so much stuff going on, all these appointments that I was busy. And I was busy enough to not really be able to focus on, you know, spinning out of control into relapse mode, you know, and. And I want legs, man. You know, I want to walk again. And that was like my. My main drive, you know, at least then. But. But since then, like, I'm happier now. You know, I started doing all those things. I got Britt out of there. You know, she's definitely done her part, you know, just being able to help her get out of there and to give her an opportunity to help herself, you know, was really important to me. And it was just. Well, that's her now.

[C]

My name's Brittney. I'm Bud's girlfriend. Yeah, we've been together for like six years. I've been sober for, like four months now. Me and Bud actually met in aa. He was like five years sober. He had it together. Like, he was working in the prison, had a job, had his own place, you know, nice car, whatever, went to the gym, like, blushing. I was a mess, though. Like, I was like three months sober, like, on like, house arrest and just like, living in my friend's recovery house, like, I don't know.

[B]

And you mentioned that now she lives in an apartment in South Philly and she works for a harm reduction nonprofit.

[A]

So she. She lives in a sober house. Gotcha. In South Philly. And she doesn't work for the harm reduction, but she'll do volunteer with them sometimes. But no, she just started working at the Eagle stadium. Oh, cool. Yeah, yeah, she started working at the Eagle stadium a couple of days ago. So she finally. She was trying to get work, but she's got a little bit of a record, so it's hard with that Sometimes, you know, that's something that sucks, too, is, you know, you do all this stuff and mess your life up and then you want to do better, and it's hard to even get back on your feet because, you know, all the wreckage that you caused in the past. But no, she managed to get some work.

[B]

So do you have a pretty extensive rap sheet from your time being down there?

[A]

Enough. I mean, I don't know if we want to put this on camera, but I have warrants right now. You know, I have possession and paraphernalia from Lancaster County. So I have the DUI and the fleeing state police in this county. But I do plan on handling that like an adult. You know what I mean?

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Yeah. You know, now I'm able to go and base that to the point where, like, I'm already doing all of the stuff that they're gonna tell me to do anyway. You know, I talk to sober people every day. You know, I'm in. I'm in touch with them. I'm going to the drug and alcohol. I'm going to mental health. I'm on Suboxone. You know, everything that they're going to tell me to do, I'm already doing. Another friend of mine, you know, she lost her arm to tranq, and she. She contacts me a lot because she, you know, she's going through it with just the mental stuff. You know, I just try to be there for her. So when I do go to court, which I will, it's. It's part of my treatment plan for the drug and alcohol counseling is, you know, you have to set goals. And, you know, one of my goals is to handle my legal stuff.

[B]

So you think you probably end up going to the station, turning yourself in and explaining that you've been sober for quite some time and having an established track record of good behavior.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, if you need help, we'll write you a character letter or something.

[A]

Oh, that would be awesome.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know how that stuff really goes a long way.

[A]

Yeah, it does.

[B]

Especially with judges who have a. Outdated viewpoint on drug addiction.

[A]

Right. Yeah. I mean, that's a whole topic in itself, dude. You know, the stigma is alive and well on drug addiction. You know, it's treated like a moral issue in America, you know, in terms.

[B]

Of the people who use drugs having low moral character and being degenerate.

[A]

Yeah. I was a state corrections officer for Pennsylvania and I ended up on the streets of Kensington. Doesn't care who you are, what you did, or what you want to be, there's no discretion. You know, it's like an insidious thing, man, that once you pass this invisible line, you're an addict and you don't even know what happens, you know, and then you can't ever cross back over that line, you know, you can't go back. That happened to me when I was a kid experimenting with pills. But as far as it goes with a moral issue in America is, you know, like you said, they think you have low moral character. It's not the case. You know, some of the best people, the most intelligent people, even the most kind and caring people I've ever met were addicts. Like, you wouldn't even believe the character that some of these people have, man. Just, you know, they'll go out of their way to do anything for you.

[B]

Can you think of an example of something like that that happened down there?

[A]

Well, yeah. Yeah, actually, I mean, outreach. Most of your outreach workers that, you know, work for an organized outreach are sober themselves or are, you know, touched in some way by addiction, you know, in a way that's. That's close to them. One woman I know down there, she lost her daughter to addiction. And now she comes out there every week, she makes home cooked meals and she comes out and she gives it out. She gives out clothes, you know, everything. Every week she's there, you need to get to rehab, she'll try to help you. You need to go to the hospital, she'll help you. But with sober people, they do the same thing and more. You know, they take money out of their own pocket, money. They don't even really have to come out and, you know, buy somebody a pair of gloves or a hat, you know, like, it's getting cold out right now, you know, and they're out there doing that just because they want to, not because they have to. And that's all over the, all over the place. Like if you go to AA or NA anywhere, you know, they do something called commitments. It's people going out of their way in their free time to go to rehabs and jails and hospitals and speak to people who are still in active addiction and try to show them a better way of life. It's huge. Even a specific example, some guys in my, my home group, my AA home group, it's where you go every week, you know, everybody there, you take commitments there. There was one dude who was trying to get sober. He was trying to get on his feet and he was like, bro, broke, you know, and winter was coming and he didn't have any, any Money for oil in his house. He bought the dude, like, $1,200 in oil. You know, they got together, pulled their money, and bought this dude oil so he could be warm in the winter. And that guy's sober? Last I Knew, at least 10 years now. Yeah. You know, so, like, little stuff like that matters. Yeah.

[B]

One of the realest dudes I've ever interviewed was a harm reduction worker from Las Vegas named Rob Bankhart.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's one of the outreach people that goes there to the tunnel, and he offers basic services. And his philosophy on it, that always struck with me is like, we don't make anybody get clean.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We're there when they're ready.

[A]

It's that balancing act of understanding that, like, I don't really play a part in that piece of them getting to a place where they're willing to accept help. I don't. Right. Like, they have to get there. I'm just gonna keep showing up and keep offering it and keep looking for ways to poke at them and tell them that I love them. You know, be that safe space when they're ready.

[B]

It's probably easy to be selfish if you haven't experienced it yourself, you know, because you just. A lot of rehabs as well. The rehab industry is based upon results, you know, you want to say A to B. We checked the box. This guy's sober. He's got 30 days. He's good. We did our job. We're going to ship him off to wherever he's going to go. We're not going to think about him again. Himself lived in the tunnels.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he was so adamant about it. He was like, you will not get clean unless something happens that makes you truly want to or have to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so do you feel like, you know, obviously you're missing part of your leg, but you don't seem particularly devastated about it.

[A]

No, I'm not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm not. You know, like I said, man, I would be dead if this didn't happen to me. Or at least using right now.

[B]

But I'm saying someone who didn't have the life experience you had would look at that as, like, the end of their life, or they would be a reason for them to be sad and depressed and permanently destroyed and downtrodden.

[A]

Yeah. You take Joe Schmo off the streets and cut off his legs, he's probably going to be devastated, dude. You know, but this is. The way that I'm living right now is better than I've lived in almost a decade. You know, so that's. I'm. I'm cool with this, you know. Yeah. And I have a plan for the future, you know.

[B]

What's the plan?

[A]

You know, I'd like to go to school. You know, I would like my book to be a success because it touches on all this stuff in a real way, you know, Like, I really try not to pull punches in it and just, you know, I don't glamorize it or sit in the sympathy of it. I just tell what it was, man, and, you know, it's real. I'd like it to be able to help people, you know. I think it can, but, you know, so that's part of the plan. I like to go to school maybe, you know, I was thinking maybe computer science or something like that.

[B]

Hey, why not? You got so much time on your hands now, Right. And you're young, so you could have a whole second life ahead of you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or I guess a third life.

[A]

Really? Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking maybe even, like, depending on how it goes, like, kind of an idea that I have would be to like, do some kind of like. Like speaking, you know, like to. I don't know if you want to call it motivational speaking, but just, you know, go around and, like, share my story with people. You know, let it be a lesson before it has to be a lesson or something.

[B]

And what would be the primary lesson of your story?

[A]

Don't do drugs.

[B]

You know, that simple?

[A]

Not really. Not really that simple, but I mean, at the base. Yeah, there's a better way, you know, There's a better way. It doesn't have to come to something like this, but I don't. I don't know, man. Everybody wants that little bit of relief, you know, Everybody that I know has had some kind of something in their life, whether it's alcohol or gambling, you know, some people like to gossip too much. You know, some people smoke too many cigarettes. You know, some kind of compulsion that gives you that little bit of, ah, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And for a lot of people, that's drugs and alcohol, but, you know, it doesn't have to come to that. You know, it's kind of like a future that I envision is. Yeah.

[B]

I think there's a theory out there that all drug use and alcohol abuse stems from deep pain, which I think is productive as far as humanizing people who have addiction problems, because I do think it is a disease. But the thing is, society is so poisoned from the top down that who isn't living in horrendously stressful circumstances financially, socially. And we're also being primed to be addicted to things at a young age with social media. We're training the youth for these really short form, short circuit, short lasting dopamine rushes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's the exact same mentality that will make someone susceptible to doing drugs later in life, without a doubt.

[A]

Dude. I thought the same thing myself, to be honest with you. Yeah. Yeah. Because it gives you that little dopamine hit every time you scroll, you know, every new reel. It gives you that little bit, Little bit, little bit.

[B]

Do you still keep in touch with any of your friends that were on the streets who are still using?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I do. I actually spoke to a couple. They're. They're a couple down there. My friend Fish and his girlfriend, and they just got kicked out of a shelter down there. I don't know if they're trying. Maybe they are. But, you know, I told him, like, come on, man, everybody from Clearfield's getting sober. Like, get out of there, dude. You know, it's. You know, that's what we were. The. The whole surrounding area there was, was Clearfield, you know, from essentially up to K and A, and that's kn, and then down to Somerset, and that's Somerset. In between is Clearfield, you know, and. Well, you got Cambria too, I guess. But anyway, he's trying. They're trying, I guess, but I still talk to them when I can, you know. And like I said, Brit goes down there sometimes and she'll call me a lot of the time while she's down there, there, just so she's talking to somebody. She'll like, turn the phone and be like, oh, hey, it's, you know, so and so. And I'll say, what's up to them, you know, it's crazy to see them now versus then because, like, you don't see the ravages of addiction when you're in it. Like you do to a degree, but you're kind of just like numb to it. Maybe you're just used to seeing people that way.

[B]

Probably a gradual escalation too.

[C]

Yeah, I was ignorant to what it's really like, you know, I didn't expect to get stuck here. It was supposed to be like a quick thing, like, you know, go cop and go home. It doesn't turn out that way. You end up, well, I'll just get well while I'm here. And then you end up falling asleep. And then you get robbed for your stuff or your money. And then you're like, Oh, I gotta go figure out money. And then, like, next thing you know, you've been here for two days, haven't been home, and you're broke again, and you're like, what am I gonna do? And you don't give a shit about any of your other responsibilities because you need to get well. I come down here and I see this, and I see how nothing is getting better for anybody. You know, a lot of times when I come down a week or two or whatever, people are wearing the same clothes, you know, they're still struggling in the same ways. And it's like. I mean, it's not attractive to me. You know what I mean? I'm doing so much better. Like, I don't want that anymore, you know? So it helps me find a lot of gratitude, you know, for what I have now and the work I've done, you know? So, you know, a lot of people say, like, you know, oh, you're gonna use or whatever. I'm like, absolutely not. Like, what part of this would make me want to get high? What part of this is selling it to me?

[A]

And looking at them from where I'm at now to seeing them on the street was like, man, I just looked like that, you know, like, skinny, dirty, out of my mind, you know, for how long? You know? And seeing them now, like, you just. You want better for them, you know, you want them to do better for themselves. Because it is possible, you know, that's the thing, is it is possible to do. It just doesn't seem like it. A lot of the time when you're.

[B]

Talking to them, do you preach about sobriety or do you just kind of wait and let them know the doors open?

[A]

I let them know the doors open, yeah. Can't get anybody sober, unfortunately. Wish you could, but it doesn't work that way, you know. So, yeah, here and there, I'll send them a little bit of money, you know, not too much, because, you know, you never want the guilt of somebody, you know, something happening to them from some money you sent them or something like that. But here and there, if somebody's sick, you know, I'll send them 10 bucks.

[B]

Do they say that conditions have improved there at all?

[A]

They said it's about the same. From what I heard, it just moved. I heard Somerset's really bad, so the.

[B]

City policy of cleaning up the area is not really working.

[A]

I guess I can't say directly because I haven't been down there since then, but since February. But from what I've seen on the videos and Stuff, it looks pretty much the same as it did.

[B]

Was it ever lost on you living down there for so long that. That it's kind of like hell on earth?

[A]

No. No. I knew it right from the gate.

[B]

Like, truly. Yeah, I've been a lot of places.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it was like the most evil capitalistic sensibilities of humans would be to sell the things to those people. The neglect from the city, the neglect of the environment, and just the state of being. It made me wonder, how do you maintain a positive worldview after exposure to so many human evils?

[A]

Because they're still good in the world. They're still good. And, you know, good and evil are a choice even if the world exists in that state. And some places are like that. You don't have to be if you don't want to. You know, even on the street, I tried to hold on to my humanity as much as I could. Sure. You know, I've hurt people. I've been hurt. I've stolen. I've been stolen from, you know, all the stuff that comes with it. But even through that, I tried to maintain some sense of character. I felt like that was really important to me because you see people get totally lost. Who they once were becomes totally gone. And, I mean, that was true for me to a degree. But I always told myself, I'm not gonna let it turn me into a monster, you know.

[B]

Did you ever come close to that?

[A]

In some. In some cases, sure. You know, like, I. I've helped jump people before, you know, I've robbed people violently before. You know, I've been a part of that. I was justified it by, you know, I'm doing what I got to do to survive. But, I mean, I was fully aware that it was morally wrong, of course, to a degree, Felt guilty afterwards as much as I could, you know. You know, under the influence of drugs. It numbs a lot of that stuff. Honestly, that. That kind of thing comes out when you get clean. Like, the emotions that you buried for so long. Like, I mean, I can't tell you how many times I. I've cried, like, just sitting there thinking about stuff or writing, you know, like, you become, like, emotionally sensitive after getting clean for a while. It's like your body's trying to rebalance, so, you know, all these different chemicals are flooding your brain. But. But yes, as far as being a monster, I've been one before. You know, like I said, one of the enemies that I made, that. That, you know, I was talking about before was there was this one girl down there who would come to me to get hit. And she, like, stopped paying and was always an iou. An iou. An iou. And then I hit her the one time, and I saw that she had money, and I was like, you gonna give me money or what? And she's like, oh, I don't. I don't really have it right now. I'm like, you have it in your hand right now, you know, So I sent a girl honor to, you know, get the money. I'm like, you know, I'll give you a cut. You'll get it. And she did, and the girl ended up getting hurt. And then her boyfriend then came after me one time, so I was sleeping, and he, like, shook me awake. He's like, are you bud? I was like, yeah. He started trying to stomp me out while I was on the block. So I'm like, y' all just gonna stand there because my people were around, you know what I mean? So they got him then. So he got pepper sprayed and beat up, you know, sent off the block. But then from that point, we had this. You know, I had an enemy. You know, whenever I would see them out, it was always like, is it going to happen right now? You. You know what I mean? It's always like. And when I was in the hospital, that person threatened Britt, you know, and she was like, listen, I wasn't even there when that happened. You know, she's like, I had nothing to do with that. Like, if you got a problem with him, have a problem with him, but I didn't do anything. So that ended up working out with her, I guess. You know, nothing ever happened to her thankfully from that. But yeah, yeah, just. Just things like that, you know, parts of yourself that you never thought that you would. Would do to someone else, you know, like, just for some powder in a bag, you know, it's like, really meaningless at the end of the day, but the. The harm that you cause isn't. You know, that's. That stuff sticks with people. Like, I was jumped really badly down there once. They were going to kill me. So I hit this girl, and she walked off with some guy. She was, like, a fairly regular customer of mine. She was usually there as her boyfriend. This time she was there with someone else. A little while later, I walked around the block, and she was passed out on the street. And she woke up and her stuff was gone. So she starts freaking out, and she's like, who was I with? So I told her. And this dude claimed not to have anything, whatever so later that day, her boyfriend comes to get me. And he's like, oh, hey, she needs to get hit again. Can you come down to the house and do it? I'm like, yeah, sure, let me finish up whatever. So I go down to the house, and they're like, she's about to be here soon. Calls her, sets the phone up on the step, and he's like, can you see? I'm like, that's weird. She's like, yeah. As soon as she said yeah, they start beating the hell out of me, dude. Three people. I was locked in this trap house. Like, this scar on my head right here is from that. They broke a board over my head, picked up some kind of stick, smashed over my head. Blood started falling. They were beating me up. You think you're gonna rob me? Da, da, da. I'm like, what are you talking about, bro? And then I remembered I saw guns in that girl's purse when I hit her. And I told her, I was like, you gotta, like, get out of here with that. Like, that's. That's not a good look here, you know what I mean? Like, bringing heat here. And then she ended up getting robbed for it. On top of a bottle of Xanax bars, two bundles of dope, like $200 and two pistols. So it was like $3,000 worth of stuff that he thought I robbed him for, right? Because I hit her. And I'm like, like, bro, I didn't take your stuff. And they ended up searching me, and they found a Xanax bar in my sock. That's when he told me. He's like, ah, I knew you were lying. I'm like, what are you talking about, man? He's like, like, she had a bottle of Xanax, green Xanax in her purse, and you have one on you. I know you took. I'm like, I remembered the dude that paid me with that bar, he had a bottle of them. So I told him. I'm like, like, yeah, dude, like this. This is who did it? Like, yeah, I, like, don't snitch, whatever, you know what I mean? You don't roll over. Listen, that's to the cops, man. I didn't have anything to do with this come up, you know what I mean? I made nothing off of it. And they were threatening to kill me, you know, in this house. And on top of that, when they had found that, they had already sent a guy out to go get Britt and trick her into coming into the house because they thought maybe she had it on her. So Britt and I's lives are literally on the line. So I told him and he's like, oh, well. He didn't really believe me still. And then Britt walks in the house and. And she said the same thing that I did, which was, you saw me out there working on the street when you walked up, you know what I mean? I was literally there hitting people. If I stole all your stuff, you think I'm still going to be hanging out right there? Like, what, do you think I'm stupid, bro? No, I know what that means. You know what I mean? That's death. Somebody will kill you for that. They'll kill you for much less. So I guess that convinced him because he ended up letting us go. He told me, though, he said, I'm gonna be watching you. And he's like, if I see anything, you know what I mean? That looks like you had something to do with it. He's like, I'm gonna kill you. He's like, I'm gonna kill you. But he said he's gonna kill Britt in front of me first. You know what I mean?

[B]

And there's really people like that down there.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that happened, dude. And that's not the only case. I've been jumped other times before for pettier stuff, but that was the worst one. I actually thought I was, you know, thought that was the end.

[B]

But there's a lot of straight murderers down there, huh?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, a lot. You walk by them every day, you know, down there, those corner kids, they got guns, man. You know what I mean? They shoot. They're definitely shooters. Even when you went to go see those brothers, man, the Trank brothers, they had guns on them. They don't hesitate to use them.

[B]

Yeah, that was probably the most scared I've ever been in my fucking life.

[A]

Yeah, I bet.

[B]

Just because it was like. I mean, those guys were really making tranq in the.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It wasn't a situation where they'd ever done an interview before. I don't know why they agreed to it, but what I've learned is even people who are doing the most, like, objectively evil, selfish thing, they still want to be documented.

[A]

Right.

[B]

People have this, like. It's like a super ego thing where it's like they just think they see the importance of it and so they can look at it from an outside perspective.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, dude. When I saw the video later, I had actually almost even forgotten that I did it. And some bunch of people started coming up to me and they're like, did you see the video? You're in Da da da. And I was like, no, what are you talking about? Because you can't keep a phone in Kensington. It gets stolen all the time. Yeah. And I watched it. I was like, oh, shit. Then I saw you go into the brother's house and I was like, oh, man, you got some balls, dude. Because that could have gone south for probably your camera guy too. They would kill you in a heartbeat and not feel bad about it. There were some guys that I dealt with on Weymouth street that were of the same caliber. You know, Weymouth street is a cold blooded street. Very, very cold blooded Spanish guys, no papers, you know what I mean? Just totally anonymous down there selling drugs and lots of them. The owner of Weymouth, from what I understand, lives in Hawaii.

[B]

You know, he's an absentee landlord.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You ever seen that rapper Skrilla before?

[A]

I've seen him before. I don't know him. I never met him. But he would do music videos down there sometimes. I was actually. I was in a music video from a guy named Slater. He did a music video called Zombies, and I was in that too. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

How do you feel about that characterization of the people down there as zombies?

[A]

If you're looking at it without an opinion, it's accurate. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I remember I saw the videos before and I was like, man, that's so up calling people zombies. And I got there and I was.

[A]

Like, oh, they're zombies.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

It's.

[B]

I mean, it's a dehumanizing way to describe somebody.

[A]

Right?

[B]

But I mean, it's extremely accurate, specifically because of the effects of tranq when you miss.

[A]

Yeah, dude, tranq is vicious. I mean, my hands are all scarred up. I got scars on every part of my body. Just like. Like crazy, crazy. Let me see if I can show you one real quick. Dude, my legs were huge. Open source. Well, you saw them, I think, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you saw them.

[B]

So they were already inflamed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Ballooning up a little bit, I'm sure. Not to the extent of when you had frostbite.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But they look. They look like they were infected with some kind of mild sepsis.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or maybe if not sepsis, I think. What's the word? Necrotizing fasciitis.

[A]

Yeah, that's it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the tranq eats your skin away. It's extremely caustic in itself. On top of that, it's a vasodilator, so less blood gets to the area. So you get infected or you get a scratch, it can't heal, it gets infected, and then it grows. And because you keep doing the drug, and often you keep going in the same place because that's the only vein you have. It just compounds over and over and over again to the point. I mean, I've seen people's bones in their arm. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen people's leg bones, foot bones, you know, just walking around like that. A friend of mine told me she was actually hanging out with somebody on the block one time, and he was sitting there with his arm like this, and I guess he leaned on it and his arm bone snapped while sitting there. You know what was funny? When I watched the documentary back, you mentioned self amputation, right? And I was like, that's ridiculous. I'm like, why would he even say that? And then I thought about it, dude, and I was like, no, that happened. Happens. So, like, there's something called hot beans, right? That's if you inject somebody in an artery, if it happens above your neck, you almost immediately go into a seizure. Yeah. If it happens below your neck, like in a limb, particularly your wrist or hand, it'll cause a blood clot instantaneously. So I actually. I did that to somebody once. I hit him in his wrist. I said, I don't know, dude, it looks hot. He was sick and he had to go to work at A block, so he had to be there. And I hit him in his wrist just a little bit. And he's hot. It's hot. And he stopped. And instantly his fingers started turning purple. It was on his right hand. His pinky and ring started to turn purple, then deep purple. And then he had to go. And I told him, I'm like, bro, you need to go to the hospital. Like, fuck work, bro. You're gonna lose your hand if you don't do something about this now. I was like, you need to go to the hospital, tell them you had an arterial injection and. And get it treated with IV blood thinners or like, they got to break up that clot, tutors, you know? And he didn't go. And his fingers eventually grew black, dried out, and died. And he had to get those amputated in the hospital. But as far as self amputation, I've seen the same thing happen where somebody doesn't go to the hospital and the limb just eventually dries up and falls off itself.

[B]

You know, to clarify, I never saw any self amputation. But Roz, the harm reduction worker, I said, she said that some people who can't get to the hospital and ends up turning black and they just cut it off themselves.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. No, I could absolutely see that. Because I mean, by that, like I said, I have seen it, you know, with like, fingers particularly. It's crazy. And it wouldn't surprise me that somebody else has seen, like, entire limbs come off because it's real. Those infections get so bad and eventually, like, it just kills everything. I've seen people shoot into exposed veins, like, so their skin was eaten away. They could see their vein and hit in that vein, like. What are you doing, man? Oh, maggots, bro. I've seen maggots in people's skin. Yeah, I've had maggots. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You don't want to have those.

[A]

No, no. It's not a good look, man. Maggots are psychologically.

[B]

Yeah, that's the worst part.

[A]

Off.

[B]

I'm sure that they probably aren't chemically and biologically aren't that harmful.

[A]

They're good for you chemically and biologically.

[B]

But they're the grossest thing. They're grosser than roaches, in my opinion. Yeah, dude.

[A]

They eat rotten flesh.

[B]

They're white, right?

[A]

Yeah, they're white. Little crawling worms, dude. Yeah, man. I had them in my leg, my wound on my left leg that I had. And I felt them before I knew they were there. And I'm like, that's not what it is. You know, you're like, this couldn't be me.

[B]

Got to be other people.

[A]

Right? Right. Trying to lie to myself. And then it just kept going, kept going because they start small and get bigger, you know? And eventually, like, I. I real. Like, I knew. I knew what it was and I lifted up my leg and they were in my leg and I was like, oh. This last run I was on was six and a half years. It's the longest I've ever used drugs consecutively, aside from starting to smoke weed when I was 14. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And you started smoking weed for fun.

[A]

Fun, yeah.

[B]

Not to. That's what kind of what I was. What I was getting at earlier. You started smoking weed because smoking weed is objectively fun when you're 14, right. It's about as much fun as you can as you can possibly have as.

[A]

A 14 year old, pretty much.

[B]

And that escalated into other drugs.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It wasn't as if you were. I don't know. But were you treating any kind of like, deep pain there?

[A]

Yeah, no, actually, I wanted. I wanted to actually go back to that. No, dude, I was curious. I saw a DARE presentation when I was in grade school.

[B]

School dare. Drug and Alcohol Resistance Education. Many of you who went to school in the 80s and 90s may remember dare. Get dare in your kids school too.

[A]

They came to the school and they had this case full of replica drugs and stuff. And they passed it around the audience and said, you know, these are what drugs look like. They're going to make you feel awesome, so don't ever do them. And, you know, that kind of sparked a curiosity in me that was like, well, you know, how good are they going to make me feel? Why shouldn't I do them? You know, and if people are willing to give up everything for them, then they've got to be great. So I started to research drugs and I learned all about them when I was like 9 or 10, 9, 10, 11, you know, I just researched and researched and then we got the Internet, so I found out more about it and I decided that I'm gonna try getting high. So when pills eventually came into my life, I knew different ways to do them and I heard that sniffing them was the best way. So that's what I did.

[B]

Wait, wait, so you're drawing an actual DARE presentation to drug use pipeline here?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So it was really A to B?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you didn't even know about drugs?

[A]

No.

[B]

And then they come in and say, hey, here's all these things that are gonna make you feel, feel amazing in the moment. Don't do them.

[A]

Right. Exactly.

[B]

So you go to the library and what happens after that?

[A]

So I started reading about all these drugs and what they do and like, their side effects and this and that. I read about inhalants and stimulants and opiates and alcohol and marijuana and, you know what I mean, any book I could get on it, I was just absorbing all of it. And like, I made a decision after I had, you know, consumed enough knowledge that I want to try drugs. You know, like, if people are willing to give up their entire life for them, then it's got to feel pretty damn good, you know, And I wanted to feel that. But, you know, you tell yourself it's not going to be you. Everyone does. It's never going to be you. You're not going to be that guy.

[B]

Who falls headfirst into deep addiction, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the thing of it is you never think it's going to be you. Even, you know, something like this, you know, amputation, you never think it's going to be you. That only happens to other People. So, yeah, I tried drugs when I was 14. I started smoking cigarettes when I was 11. You know what I mean? Because that seemed like some kind of a drug. They said nicotine's a drug. You know, my parents smoke, let me try drugs. And from there, it escalated to pills. I tried them when I was 14, and it scared the hell out of me. So I only did that once because I liked it.

[B]

You're talking about opiates, right? Not benzos?

[A]

Yeah, Vicodin. Yeah. I took Vicodin with my friend Jay that actually passed away in July, and he's the first person I smoked weed with, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So he's the first person I took opiates with, first person that I smoked weed with. And it felt really good, the. The opiates. So it scared me. And I didn't touch them. I was like, no, that's. You know what I mean? I like that too much. So I put it off until I was, like, 16. My grandmother moved in after my grandfather passed away. She had pain pills because she had back problems problems. And I didn't touch them at first, But I was smoking weed heavily, probably to the point there was a problem.

[B]

Like, yeah, yeah, five times a day.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You know, whenever I could. And some guys were. Some older guys that I was smoking with were like, hey, can you get any pills? Like, do you have any pills at your house? I was like, I don't know why? They're like, we'll give you a bunch of weed for some if you can get them. So I went and I stole three methadone from my grandmother, and I brought them back, and the dudes gave me and ate the weed for three pills. And I was like, sweet.

[D]

And then we kind of, like, caught on, you know, because, like, where were they going? You know what I mean? I was at work. So the sad thing about it was his mom really needed them, and then with him taking them, it really hurt her because then she was in a lot of pain because he was taking her meds, and that was very hard. And then mom started hiding them.

[A]

So I would look, and it kind of became cat and mouse, you know, she would hide them, I'd try to find them, and, you know, eventually I was accused directly, you know, and I denied it. You know, Denied it. I mean, there was no other excuse for where they could have been going. But I still stuck by it, you know, Deny, deny, deny, man. I didn't know I needed them yet even really, you know, But I did, and they eventually really cracked down. And you know, she would start taking her pills with her to go play bingo. And when she would go out, she would take them with her. So I had to find alternate sources. So I started to ask around and I found some connections for pills. Eventually they got too expensive and heroin was the next logical step. So the first time I ever did it, I injected at a friend's house. Yeah. You know, I skipped the whole snip and joke phase and went right to a needle.

[B]

That's the one part of the DARE program that I kind of agree with is the gateway theory.

[A]

Yeah, that's true.

[B]

Totally true.

[A]

Cigarettes are a gateway drug. I think, honestly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, cigarettes can be a gateway.

[B]

But I think there's different gateways. For example, alcohol is a gateway to cocaine.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Cocaine's a gateway to crack and perhaps meth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I look at the opiate track. I don't know if you feel this way as a little bit different. I think there's more of a pills.

[A]

Heroin, fentanyl, without a doubt.

[B]

I'm sure once you hit a certain strata, you start doing all of them. But I feel like most people that I know who have had addiction problems, they kind of either follow like that route. Then there's the third route, which is like antidepressants, benzos, that sort of alternative.

[A]

Yeah, benzos weren't my thing. They're not fun. They just make you really tired and you can't feel anything. Like everything is just like flat.

[B]

Do you ever now in recovery, have problems with euphoric recall and stuff like that? Or are you just so ready to be sober that you don't even think about that stuff?

[A]

So cravings are a thing. They happen, you know, and they're going to continue to happen. But my time in sobriety previously has given me like self awareness of when a craving is happening. I can recognize it. So I don't just like find myself like, you know, lost in euphoric recall, like thinking about casual Kensington. In the beginning it was kind of like that. I would just daydream all day about being back there. Something about it, man, that gives you like this. It's just like this pool to the place. It's like a black hole, dude. It just like you just want to be there for whatever reason. I'll think about it, my heart will race and then I'll get anxiety and I'm like, I'm craving. You know what I mean? I'm craving. And when I have that recognition, you can ride it out, you know, that doesn't work every Time or it's not going to work every time, you know, like sometimes you gotta call somebody, say, hey man, like, I want to get high, but I don't want to get high. So, like, what do I do? You know?

[B]

So what do you do whenever you get an intense craving? Do you have other activities?

[A]

Yeah, smoke cigarettes a bunch. Yeah. Yeah. Smoke a lot of cigarettes. Yeah.

[B]

It's the AA drug of choice.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, without a doubt. Smoke a lot of cigarettes. I played video games.

[B]

Oh, what are you playing right now?

[A]

So I was hooked on Avowed for a while. Pretty cool game. Really good graphics. Some old school games. I was playing prototype for a while. Yeah.

[B]

So you go for the nostalgia game?

[A]

Yeah, sometimes. But I like the new stuff too. But I'm not really big on shooters. I'm more like, like high fantasy RPG.

[B]

Kind of adventure based, open world stuff. Yeah, that's my shit too. Fallout, Elder Scrolls.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That stuff's awesome, dude.

[B]

Anything where you can explore a virtual, like plan of existence is tight.

[A]

Yeah, it's cool. You know what I mean? Do whatever you want. Build your character up from nothing. Like Dungeons Dragons are cool. I've been on a kick lately watching D and D campaigns. People are playing. There's this guy on YouTube called the AI guy. He's got this, this campaign using celebrities. So he's got like Joe Rogan, Don Trump and he uses their voices, but they play actual D and D characters, you know, wizards and shit. Yeah, it's really well made actually.

[B]

Were you consuming a lot of media when you're out in Kensington?

[A]

Not at all.

[B]

Just like straight real life shit all the time.

[A]

Real life all the time? Yeah. Yeah. Didn't even have a phone like 90% of the time. Yeah.

[B]

You mentioned there's some addictive properties of the streets.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Beyond drugs, just energy.

[A]

Yeah, I think maybe something with that. Is camaraderie kind of the same aspect that you get in aa, you know, people being close and having that. That bond of shared struggle. It's the same thing in active addiction, especially among the homeless. You know, we're pretty tight knit. Usually there's something about it. You don't want to leave it because they understand you on such a personal level. Like this dude has seen you get beat almost to death, you know what I mean? He's fought for you. You've shared a needle with him. You know what I mean? Like, you're literally like blood brothers at that point, you know? And then you leave and you think about that guy, you know, you're like man, is he. You know, what's going on with him? Like, my friend Mike that. That passed away from sepsis. He was my enemy at first. He thought I robbed him. He. He tried to chase me down with a metal pole with concrete on the end of it for like an hour.

[B]

It's a long chase.

[A]

It was long, dude.

[B]

I kept running up and down the.

[A]

L. Yeah, no, on. On the Ave. Oh, yeah, on the app. Down by Cambria. Yeah. I kept. I kept running like, dude, I didn't take. Ended up giving him the $2 that he thought I stole. I was like, yeah, I'll just get. I'll pay you, man. But he became my friend, you know, and. And he passed away. But, like, you get these bonds and things like that where, you know, you wonder how they're doing, or they just. They understand you on that personal level that really, the rest of the world looks at you like you're a leper, you know, at that point. So you don't fit in anywhere else except there. You know, something about that, too, is. You know, we called Mike. We called him Dumpster Mike because he. Dumpster died all the time, you know.

[B]

Get some good stuff in there.

[A]

Yeah, dude, this. This is crazy. He walked up to me one time. I'm sitting in this. This parking lot on Ruth Street. He walks up to me with something in his coat, like, all. All, like, shady. And he's like, you're not gonna believe what I found. What'd you find? He's like, hands it to me. It's a signed Mickey Mantle card, his hall of fame card. Signature in a plexiglass case, brass seals on the corners, and a certificate of authenticity that came with it. I'm like, where did you get. Did you just kill somebody? Where did you get this dude? And the story he told me was that he dumpster diving in front of this apartment that was getting cleaned out. And apparently the guy was some kind of art thief, got arrested, and they cleaned out his apartment, and they were just throwing his stuff out, and he was digging through the stuff and found it. Like, I held it in my hands, bro. I couldn't believe it. He claimed it sold for $7 million somewhere, but he wasn't touching the money. It was going to go to his daughter until he could get clean and stuff. I mean, I want to believe that happened.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But more than likely, he probably got robbed for it. While he was passed out, you were.

[B]

Talking about, you know, the vortex of the streets and that camaraderie that you have where the rest of the world. There's this kind of invisible wall of shame where, you know, you have these people that you're so close with and you guys are living on the streets. You guys go through real situations where each other's character is tested. You go through life and death scenarios, Sharon Needles, all that stuff. Then you have polite society which looks down on the community. They're just, they're also not as close to each other.

[A]

Right?

[B]

You're pretty much living in a street commune all the time.

[A]

All the time.

[B]

Very few people even have that level of closeness with people who aren't in their family.

[A]

You huddle up to those dudes for warmth at night. Right? You know what I mean?

[B]

And there's this huge, you know, obviously homelessness in particular has been a major talking point with like the new administration. You have the national guard in D.C. that's, you know, clearing out encampments and basically kicking people's tents around. Which kind of brings me to a question. As someone who's been in and been out, what do you think is the solution to widespread homelessness across the country?

[A]

So I think it's about how America approaches the problem that is the problem. Like I said before, it's treated like it's a moral dilemma and it's not. It's a mental health dilemma. There's been times where I was on my way to cop drugs, crying because I didn't want to. More than anything in the world, I didn't want to. And I couldn't turn around, I couldn't stop and realize relapse. Like, what's the moral choice in that? You know, that's mental health all the way. At least for me. America treats it like a win or lose situation as well. So either you're a good person, you don't do drugs, or you're a bad person and you do drugs and you're a criminal. I think maybe a solution like Europe has is better their style of sobriety or drug treatment. They assume relapse right from the start. They know you're going to get high. So you know, they have safe injection sites, heroin maintenance, things like that. But they also give you open resources. And when you do get arrested for a drug related crime, you don't go to rehab for 30 days. And then real life hits you in the face, you know, not even 30 days. 28, you know, day 29. All that stuff that you just didn't deal with for the last however long is in your face and present, you know, and that that drives relapse like within the European system, they have very structured environments. Say you do your crime right and it's drug related and you get sentenced to rehab. It's not 30 days, you know what I mean? It's six months. And then from there you move into sober living community that's still structured, you know, and that's part of your sentence, you know, and they do that here to a degree. The difference is in America, the relapse is strict, treated as a pass or fail. And you can get kicked out of your sober house if you get high and then you're homeless and you go right back to the streets. My girlfriend just told me a girl got kicked out of her sober house a couple weeks ago. She went back out to the streets and got murdered. You know what I mean? If instead she was given another option, would she still be alive? Who knows? You know what I mean? But, but it's things like that in, in the European system, relapse is, is assumed. So when you do it, the door still open to say, all right, so what are we going to do now? You know, what's your next move? Are you going to keep using? Or if you're not, maybe we can try this, you know, whereas if you relapse on probation, you go to jail and then you get back out and there's not that structure, you know, and you're back out on your own, doing your thing and relapse and then this time you get put in jail for longer and it just, just makes you more angry at the system, you know, Like, I really believe it's a systemic issue. If you want to get into, I guess, the philosophy of it, who are you to tell me I can't do drugs? You know, if there's a weed plant growing right there, I pick it and go dry it and smoke it. How can you tell me I can't do that? You know what I mean?

[B]

It's on a personal liberty level.

[A]

Right, right, right. Like, you know, who cares if it kills me, it's my choice. You know what I mean? It's not your position. I mean, a lot of that stuff goes back, I think, to the hippie movement and it was disrupting the system that was in place. You know, tune in, turn on, drop out. And then they tried to do the, you know, war on drugs in the 80s with Reagan and see how that worked out.

[B]

Yeah, we lost. Yeah, the drugs won.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, they're always going to, because, you know, as long as there's a demand, there's going to be supply and yeah, the bottom line is sometimes people don't want to deal with reality, and drugs are a really easy way to escape that.

[B]

And the reality of drugs is still something that people want to ignore. And you said that the moral classification of drug addicts is people with, like, really bad impulse control or just like, you know, there's so these surly, miserable people who can't resist their own temptations. I wonder how many people will have to die before it's treated like a legitimate health concern.

[A]

One person every five minutes from fentanyl drugs over overdoses.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

In America. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah. One person every five minutes. And, like, that's easy to look at it like a statistic. But since you got here, how many people have died?

[B]

Probably 20.

[A]

Yeah. At least that's a son or brother, daughter, mother, you know, they're all dead because of drugs. You know, how do you fix it? Like, it's a very big problem, and I don't think there's an easy answer to it.

[B]

Well, the current plan, I suppose, would be targeting the drug cartels. That seems to be where the administration and the DEA is putting their funds. You think that a supply chain disruption would actually curtail addiction rates?

[A]

I think it can have an effect, but it will never stop it. Fentanyl is a huge problem, and they have super factories that produce it in mass. In Mexico? Yeah, in Mexico, along with methamphetamine, you know, just these underground factories that are just pumping out hundreds of pounds of this stuff all the time.

[B]

Breaking Bad style.

[A]

Literally Breaking Bad style. Like. Like that was based on reality. Breaking Bad is essentially a documentary, you know, with that. I. I definitely think that disrupting the cartels could have an effect. But I mean, it's. It's not just the cartels. It's China. China makes fentanyl. Afghanistan makes heroin. All of your southern countries producing cocaine. And like I said, there's always going to be a demand, so there's always going to be a supply somewhere. I think that probably the best solution is to face it head on and say, this is. This is a real problem that people are dealing with. I think they need to pour funding into just support, support, you know, better rehab, better rehab plan. Right now, rehab is get away for 28 days and then go to meetings. That's what rehab is. It doesn't really do much more for you. At least since the last time I've been there, you know.

[B]

And rehabs are also for profit businesses.

[A]

$30,000 a month per person.

[B]

Right. And they're in Competition with other rehabs to see who can statistically have a higher rate of curing people. So one thing I've noticed is we did a documentary about like a pretty far right, like qanon guy who stormed the capitol and everything like that. And his family fell apart, he had a foreclosure and he also smoked weed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But that was a very small part of his psychosis. So we had a treatment facility actually pretty close by in Pennsylvania. Give him a full scholarship in exchange for a little bit of promotion. And he gets there and a week into his treatment, he's diagnosed as a marijuana addict. And they sort of discounted all these other underlying factors like actual traumatic events in his life. And they said, okay, no, no, no, you're a marijuana addict and we need you to be clean for this 90 day period. They marked him essentially as we got him here, he's clean, he's good to go. And they offered no follow up therapeutic or psychiatric services, which makes me think, okay, they have to be incentivized like statistically to mark the box and say, got him, he's clean, ship him off, send your kids here. Cause we'll get them clean too. The program is a multi phase experience with proven results. Yeah, I could just be like a conspiracy theorist here about the whole thing, but it seems to be like a for profit, interesting industry in a worse way.

[A]

I mean, it doesn't cost $30,000 a month to put somebody there, you know, as far as I can tell, maybe it does with staffing or whatever, but I mean, that's a hell of a lot of money. Maybe $30,000 a month from one person pays for all your staff and your bills. But what about the other 75 people who are there, you know, that are also getting that same amount of money shipped into that facility, you know, or that company? Don't get me wrong, I. Rehabs definitely do good. They saved my life in the past for sure. But there, there is a for profit agenda and there's not enough follow up. I think that's the biggest thing is the follow up. Like you said that with that guy, you know, they check the box and he's good, but he's got all this other underlying stuff, you know, like for me, I wasn't brought up traumatically, you know, I didn't have things happen to me. You know, I'm blessed for that. I had a good family. Look where I grew up, you know what I mean? It's beautiful out here. A lot of people, people didn't. A lot of People went through it, man, you know, with any number of things. All kinds of abuse, neglect. Kids in the city are doomed from the start a lot of the time. Minority kids in the city, screwed, dude. They're screwed. And that's, like, a real shame. But I mean, that's. That's a separate topic. But it's mental health, I think, underlies all of this stuff at one point, because even not being brought up traumatically, once you cross that line into addict, a lot of mental health stuff comes with it, you know what I mean? There's plenty of people who probably wouldn't be bipolar or depressed or whatever if, you know, they didn't have substance abuse issues. So it compounds the problem. That for me, was traumatic actually, in a way, like, actually internalizing the fact, like, okay, I'm an addict. You know what I mean? I'm a drug addict. That's probably about the worst thing that you can be in society other than someone who hurts kids.

[B]

Yeah, I was gonna say, you know.

[A]

Pedophiles are the worst thing. And then you have drug addicts. I think a lot of it comes from lack of understanding, you know what I mean? And the stigma is allowed to breathe. There's not enough activists, I think, that are trying to or that are at least publicized to the point where they can say, like, here's what's really going on. Like, put it on NBC, you know, and say, like, these are the recent studies. Addiction is a mental health problem. It is a disease. And this is why, you know, show people the data and let them understand it for themselves. It could change the opinion of the alcoholic sitting outside the local gas station, you know, the next time they walk by him and, you know, not look at him like he's some, I don't know, piece of garbage, you know, because that's how. That's the view a lot of the time. You know, I think that's something that should be done. But is there enough incentive for that in the upper echelon of society, you know, the governments to say, all right, let's pour this, you know, $40 billion into awareness, you know, And I don't think that they see it as valuable enough, as unfortunate as it is. But profit is always the bottom line, is always the driving factor, even, you know, look at hospitals and cancer. Some people die from cancer because they can't afford the meds. Some people die from diabetes because they can't afford insulin. The guy who invented insulin and patented it sold the patent for a dollar, so nobody would ever have to suffer from insulin. Lack of insulin. Right. And now there's people that are losing limbs because they can't afford it.

[B]

How much does it cost with that insurance?

[A]

Offhand, I don't know, but I think several hundred dollars. I don't know for a fact, but yeah, several hundred dollars a month. Month for insulin. It was supposed to be free. That was his whole thing about it. He came up with it. They realized they could make it in some kind of bacteria produces it when they feed it a specific thing. And he was like, oh, wow, this is going to change the world. And, yeah, it did. It kept people alive for money. So the bottom line is the bottom line always.

[B]

Well, do you want to give a final message to, you know, maybe somebody out there who's struggling with addiction themselves and trying to figure out, you know, how to proceed with life in a way that is meaningful?

[A]

Yeah, you can do it. You're not alone. Look at me. You know, I lived on Kensington Streets for five and a half years, and now I'm sober and rebuilding a relationship with my family. So if that's something that you're going through or if you can relate, use me as an example. You can do it.

[B]

My man. Thanks so much for your time. Time. Like I said, we're proud of you, dude. And that was an amazing interview for real.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

I think it's going to touch a lot of people and I'm stoked to see. Whenever you get this book done, I. I don't want to put this episode out before the book's finished.

[A]

Yeah, I. I don't want to rush.

[B]

Your creative process either.

[A]

Right. Yeah. Right now it's like 440 pages, including like page breaks and, and pictures and stuff. I have pictures from my time out there, so that's cool. But it's like, it's like 90 something. Thousand words. So it's a full length memoir.

[B]

It's finished.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Hey, if you guys are watching this, I have fantastic news, bud. Rodney's book, Kensington Loss and Survival on the Streets of Philadelphia is now live and for sale on Amazon. It's about 20 bucks on paperback and 10 bucks on e reader. The link for sale is in the description box and the pinned comment comment of this video. So if you want to support him and his recovery, head on over. It would mean a lot.

[A]

Channel 5 live worldwide, Hollywood and Vine. Fuck the authority. Channel 5 news, channel 55. We don't fuck with custards. And 5 is the best number.