Life After Bumfights & Indecline's War on America: 5CAST w/ Andrew Callaghan (#11)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Life After Bumfights & Indecline's War on America: 5CAST w/ Andrew Callaghan (#11)

Podcast Information:

• Title: 5CAST w/ Andrew Callaghan
• Host: Andrew Callaghan
• Episode: Life After Bumfights & Indecline's War on America (#11)
• Release Date: August 10, 2025
• Description: This episode features a candid interview with Ryan McPherson and Daniel Tanner, founding members of the radical art collective Indecline, discussing their controversial past with "Bumfights" and their evolution into Indecline’s current activism and art projects.

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1. Introduction to Bumfights and Its Legacy

Ryan McPherson opens the discussion by reflecting on the controversial "Bumfights" project, questioning its reception and the motivations behind its creation:

“Bumfights. To explain it to somebody now feels so much more tame than it did like in 2010. Why in the world would anybody buy this thing?” ([00:00])

Daniel Tanner adds context about the long-term consequences faced by the creators:

“And for those who think there haven't been consequences, it's like there have 20 years of them going back wouldn't do that again.” ([00:15])

Ryan expresses admiration for artists with diverse backgrounds and unconventional approaches:

“Some of my favorite artists ever are the ones that are always on some different shit.” ([00:21])

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2. Transition from Bumfights to Indecline

Andrew Callahan delves into the ethical boundaries between exploitation and documentation, sharing personal experiences where they chose not to publish certain footage for ethical reasons ([00:42]).

The conversation shifts to the impact of "Bumfights," highlighting its widespread condemnation, legal issues, and the eventual sale of its rights by Ryan at a young age:

“Ryan, then not even 20 years old, sold the rights away for all future sequels and stepped away from Bumfights for good to focus on an independent artistic venture called Indecline.” ([05:00])

Ryan recounts the early days of "Bumfights," including their interactions with Donnie and Rufus, two homeless individuals who became local celebrities due to their willingness to perform stunts for beer ([28:37]).

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3. Evolution into Indecline’s Activism and Art

Daniel Tanner describes Indecline as an organic artist collective focused on message-driven projects that challenge societal norms:

“The name Indecline kind of gives you some idea of what it's about... the idea that like a lot of the things when you look at the political situation today... we'd like to show what's going on underneath that fuels the illusion or the dream.” ([07:19])

Ryan McPherson outlines Indecline’s diverse range of projects, from billboard altercations to large-scale guerrilla art installations:

“We've installed life sized butt naked nude statues of Trump across the country, painted giant anti-war murals on military training grounds, hijacked dozens upon dozens of billboards...” ([10:03])

The collective emphasizes the importance of fun and therapeutic purposes in their activism:

“Contrary to popular belief, if you're going to engage in this kind of stuff, you need to have fun. It needs to serve a therapeutic purpose as much as it serves a public service purpose.” ([12:18])

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4. Ethical Considerations and Direct Action

Andrew raises questions about the ethics of their work, particularly in confrontational environments:

“What's the line between exploitation and documentation?” ([00:42])

Ryan and Daniel discuss their approach to direct action, advocating for property disruption as a form of protest against consumerism and corporatization:

“A billboard in the forest is. Putting a billboard in the city is property destruction. You're colonizing the space in our heads.” ([73:45])

They argue that property destruction isn't intrinsically negative but a means to challenge societal constructs:

“We feel that, like, there's all sorts of property destruction all the time. Strip mining is property destruction. Gentrification is property destruction.” ([73:37])

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5. Impact and Public Reception

The hosts discuss the mixed reactions to Indecline's projects, from legal repercussions to media attention:

“Bumfights traveled from La Mesa across the entire planet at a rate in which the videographers couldn't imagine, resulting in widespread condemnation for obvious reasons, lawsuits and even the arrest of the directors for illegal prize fighting in far over their heads.” ([05:00])

Ryan recounts instances where their work led to significant legal and social fallout, emphasizing the importance of accountability:

“We've been putting in work since 2000 out here, you know, so they hate you guys for. Hate us. We don't mince words when it comes to Them in any form.” ([87:31])

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6. Reflections on Modern Activism and Culture

Andrew and the guests explore the transformation of political culture, particularly the rise of cancel culture and its implications for activism:

“A cancel culture is about canceling.” ([44:29])

Daniel elaborates on the dangers of cancel culture, comparing it to historical movements and emphasizing the need for open communication and accountability without persecution:

“If you don't have accountability and a path to restitution, then you're in the French Revolution... it's like... Those systems were built to fight for who gets to be the police.” ([44:38])

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7. Projects Highlighted: Billboard Liberation and Art Installations

Ryan details specific projects, such as altering McDonald's billboards to critique consumerism:

“We removed them completely. We cut them into 8 by 11 pieces. We stenciled Respect Existence or Expect Resistance on them and mailed those out as individual works of art for $50 a piece and raised $9,500 for the Palestinian Children's Relief Fund in a matter of 48 hours.” ([72:04])

Daniel underscores the significance of these actions as direct responses to societal issues rather than mere acts of defiance:

“We're advocating for property destruction as a means to disrupt and challenge existing societal norms and corporate messages.” ([73:37])

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8. Personal Stories and Anecdotes

Ryan shares personal anecdotes about interactions with figures like Bling Bling and the impact of their work on individuals’ lives:

“And the fascinating thing about that was when we sold the rights, the criminal and civil investigations were heating up. So you have the people we sold it to who now own the rights to it... it’s a whole lesson for anybody in your profession.” ([36:08])

Daniel emphasizes the human relationships formed during their projects, highlighting moments of care and responsibility:

“We've put $40 grand in a bank account for them. We have a trustee situation. There was rent, there was apartment keys... it's about ensuring their well-being beyond just documentation.” ([38:00])

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9. Future Projects and Aspirations

The guests hint at upcoming projects, maintaining secrecy to protect their operations:

“Most of them, we can't talk because it's like they're... you're putting the blueprint out and giving people a head start on, like, so you have to keep certain things under wraps.” ([86:28])

Ryan discusses their strategic planning and the meticulous execution required for their large-scale art installations:

“It's like the most well-oiled bank robbery you could imagine. Every billboard, every project... is all about the execution and handling fallout.” ([66:46])

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10. Closing Remarks and Shoutouts

Andrew concludes the episode by acknowledging the ongoing struggles and resilience of activists, while also giving shoutouts to organizations supporting their causes:

“What we're trying to do is point people in directions that are way more impactful...,” ([82:17])

Ryan and Daniel express admiration for organizations like the Sidewalk Project and encourage listeners to volunteer and support local initiatives:

“Shine a Light's the real deal... If you're in Las Vegas and watching this, you should go to Devoid magazine... and get the contact info to all five of these organizations. We believe in all them.” ([82:15])

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Notable Quotes:

• Ryan McPherson ([00:00]): “Bumfights. To explain it to somebody now feels so much more tame than it did like in 2010. Why in the world would anybody buy this thing?”

• Andrew Callahan ([00:42]): “Brothers, brothers, brothers. Got a question for you guys. Where exactly is the line between exploitation and documentation?”

• Daniel Tanner ([07:19]): “The name Indecline kind of gives you some idea of what it's about... the idea that like a lot of the things when you look at the political situation today... we'd like to show what's going on underneath that fuels the illusion or the dream.”

• Ryan McPherson ([73:45]): “A billboard in the forest is. Putting a billboard in the city is property destruction. You're colonizing the space in our heads.”

• Daniel Tanner ([44:38]): “If you don't have accountability and a path to restitution, then you're in the French Revolution... It's like... Those systems were built to fight for who gets to be the police.”

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Conclusion

In this episode of 5CAST w/ Andrew Callaghan, Ryan McPherson and Daniel Tanner provide a deep dive into their tumultuous journey from the creation of the controversial "Bumfights" to their current role in Indecline's radical art and activism. They discuss the ethical boundaries of documentary work, the impact of their projects on both themselves and society, and their unwavering commitment to direct action as a form of protest against consumerism and corporatization. The conversation also touches on the challenges posed by modern political culture, including cancel culture, and emphasizes the importance of accountability, open communication, and meaningful activism. Through personal anecdotes and reflections, the guests illustrate the complexities and sacrifices involved in pushing the boundaries of art and activism over two decades.

Transcript

[Ryan McPherson]

Bumfights. To explain it to somebody now feels so much more tame than it did like in 2010. Why in the world would anybody buy this thing? Bum Fights was its own. Like wake up one day and think, what the fuck did we just do?

[Daniel Tanner]

And for those who think there haven't been consequences, it's like there have 20 years of them going back wouldn't do that again.

[Ryan McPherson]

Some of my favorite artists ever are the ones that are always on some different shit. We have this body of work where you don't know what your entry to indecline was. It could have been through graffiti. It could have been from our theatrical background. You can't really put your finger on like what it is we do because we haven't done the same thing for 20 plus years. Like, we like getting involved in things that we're technically like we have no business being involved in.

[Andrew Callahan]

Brothers, brothers, brothers. Got a question for you guys. Where exactly is the line between exploitation and documentation? It's a question that I've pondered for quite some time as a journalist, yet haven't really reached a definitive answer on is it ethical to film somebody in an extremely vulnerable state if what you've captured delivers an important message about the historical realities of that moment? It seems to be a question that each prominent documentary filmmaker has a different answer to. I've generally followed the motto shoot most things and then make the decision in post production on whether or not to publish it to the world. But the first time I can recall actually withholding footage forever was back in 2018 when a teenager freely confessed to an accidental homicide in Louisiana. And then a year later in 2019, when I stumbled upon an illegal full nude down syndrome strip club in Alabama, wherein the stripper poles were installed in the beds of pickup trucks that were gathered in a circle and the cash tips were going to the parents of the dancers. In an ideal world, I would have called the sheriff, but the sheriff was there drinking a beer. There's also been other situations where I declined to interview somebody for ethical reasons. Most recently two weeks ago, actually about three weeks ago now. But I made contact with an escaped New Orleans jail inmate named Antwan Massey, who's since been captured. He hit me up on Instagram about doing an in person interview about the conditions inside jail that made him want to escape, which I was very excited to conduct before learning that Antwan Massie was convicted of some crimes that aren't so cool. Cool crimes to me is like bank robbery, wire fraud, or petty cocaine possession, not aggravated domestic battery. Still, given the News value of the story. I was still down for a quick interview if I could establish early on that he was in jail for bad reasons. But then Mr. Massee asked me for a $500 cash app deposit, which my lawyer told me would be considered aiding and abetting a fugitive. So I had to pass anyways. Some of my favorite documentary films and movies have been ones that did walk that line. I can remember the Harmony Corinne movie called Gun Mo that I saw in high school, which wasn't a documentary film, but it kind of felt like one. And it featured scenes of a glue huffing animal abusing kids in Ohio doing some crazy stuff. Though it was hard on the eyes, there was a deeper message about the spiritual melancholy in the post industrial rural Midwest around the turn of the millennium. Which, if you can remember if you were alive during Y2K, was an era marked by liberal optimism in the celebration of technological advancement. Despite being called the worst film of the year by the New York Times in 1999, who considered the film to be crass and exploitative, Corinne defended Gunmo, explaining that he was merely acting as a passive voyeur in an existent reality who happened to press record Typical environment that's outside the confines of polite society. However, there have been other celebrated controversial documentary films where the director went beyond the role of a voyeur and actually imposed his will on the primary subject of the film to make a point. One of those was the act of Killing, directed by Joshua Oppenheimer, released in 2012. The film, if you haven't seen it, follows a man named Anwar Kongo, who is the leader of a US backed anti communist death squad that perpetrated the Indonesian mass killings of 1965, which killed up to 100,000 people. In the third act of the film, Oppenheimer helps to organize a theatrical reenactment of these exact massacres, wherein Kongo must play a victim of the massacres in one of the scenes, which caused him to undergo a panic attack and temporarily come to terms with the harm that he'd caused. Though ultimately Congo did snap back into denialism and bravado. Now, in facilitating this transformative theatrical moment, Oppenheimer stepped beyond the role of a passive documentarian to create plot structure. And he was really heralded as a genius for doing that. And I kind of agree. I think it's an amazing film. But today we're not going to be talking about Harmony Koran or Joshua Oppenheimer. We're going to be talking about a film that received really only controversy without much props. Outside these skateboarding graffiti worlds, despite being the Highest sold underground DVD of 2002, selling over 250,000 copies, that film was called Bum Fights, Volume 1, a cause for concern. It was created and distributed by four then high school students from La Mesa, California and Las Vegas who took inspiration from the wild, wild Internet of the late 90s and early 2000s, in the wake of Gummo and Jackass success, when America's countercultural youth was in a sociopathic arms race to make the craziest content possible. Bum Fights, as the name implies, featured videos of bums fighting and mostly revolved around the life and times of Donnie and Rufus, two homeless individuals known to La Mesa, California high school kids as the local stunt bums far before the cameras started rolling. For reference, Donnie and Rufus were hardened local alcoholics who'd become micro celebrities in the area for a proposition they'd often make to teenagers. Give us beer and we'll do any stunt you'd like in return, whether it be running into milk crates, getting inside of shopping carts and running into walls, pulling teeth out and beyond. So a group of kids decided to film them and pay extra beer and extra money for crazier and crazier stunts. Those youths were Ryan McPherson, Daniel Tanner, Zachary Buback and Michael Slyman, who put together Bump fights to show other kids in the area, adding a cause for concern to the end of the title to emphasize the fact that they believed that what they put together was a mirror of street life that reflected the uncomfortable realities and how far some people will go to feed their addict. The problem was Ryan and the guys were the ones paying for it. Needless to say, Bumfights traveled from La Mesa across the entire planet at a rate in which the videographers couldn't imagine, resulting in widespread condemnation for obvious reasons, lawsuits and even the arrest of the directors for illegal prize fighting in far over their heads. Ryan, then not even 20 years old, sold the rights away for all future sequels and stepped away from Bum Fights for good to focus on an independent artistic venture called indecline, which today has evolved into one of the most radical, and you guessed it, controversial art collectives in the country. They've installed life sized butt naked nude statues of Trump across the country, painted giant anti war murals on military training grounds, hijacked dozens upon dozens of billboards, usually with anti consumerist messaging, and even installed the largest piece of illegal graffiti in US history out in the Mojave desert. So essentially, they're still inciting chaos, but in a controlled, direct manner, not involving the homeless. Anyways, these guys have had quite the storied career, from teenage infamy to an adulthood and radical art activism. And what you're about to watch or hear if you're on Spotify or Apple Music, as one of their first candid interviews ever, which we filmed in a warehouse outside Las Vegas. If you're a first time viewer, my name is Andrew Callahan and this is our new long form show called five Cast, which is kind of a podcast type of deal. That's a bit of a departure from our typical punchy style of infield content. For me, this new show has been a bit of a breath of fresh air and I hope you guys like it. Anyways, here it is, an exclusive interview with two of Indicline's founding members who for their own safety, would like to remain anonymous. I was straight. All right, action. We're currently here in Las Vegas. It's about 98 degrees. Is this a typical day in town?

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah, I'd say this is probably pretty typical. You know, just uncomfortable enough to be just absolutely unbearable and inspiring.

[Andrew Callahan]

So before we get into the arts career and trajectory, let's talk about Las Vegas proper itself. You guys are de facto artistic representatives of Clark county in Las Vegas. What is one thing you want people to understand about this place that they might not be aware of?

[Daniel Tanner]

Well, it's like a big, like suburban kind of sprawl with like a really grimy center. Yeah, kind of grimy, chewy center that they're doing a lot to try to rehabilitate. But it kind of gives you a place to go get into trouble, you know, and then a reason to, like, have that angst at the world if.

[Ryan McPherson]

You grew up here too. Like, this isn't like growing up in a lot of parts of the country. Like summers in Las Vegas, when you're out of school, you're dealing with 116 degree heat. You're not going to a beach, you're not skateboarding, you're not. Like, you have to get creative and there's, you know, no matter what you do, no matter how much water you drink, like the heat does something to you. Coming here and meeting all the different people that like, grew up here properly. Like, you definitely see that little edge, you know, to the people that have put in enough summers in Las Vegas. Like, they're a special kind of activated for sure.

[Andrew Callahan]

So when you guys first moved here, was there a sprawling suburbia like Henderson and stuff, or was it more compact?

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah, yeah, that was all there. It's like, it's just always Been an expanding. The best way to describe it was every time I would fly to Las Vegas from anywhere you would. It seemed like you would reach it sooner. Like there was this one point in time you get coming at night and it would just be this little, you know, a little illuminated dot in the middle of nothing. And then you just kept hitting it sooner and sooner and it would just be all the, you know, the Summerlins and the Green Valleys and all that. So they've just expanded and expanded it and you know, now most people say they live in Las Vegas, but they're 50 minutes from the strip.

[Andrew Callahan]

But do you think it's the consumerist nature of the city itself that's made it a ripe target for the kind of work y' all do?

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah, well, you got to think it's a city built by the mob. So they came out here and then when the giant corporations took it over, they sanitized it. But it's more or less the same ethos. Like it's one of the few cities in the world where people jump off those casinos all the time.

[Andrew Callahan]

A person is dead after jumping from the South Point parking garage.

[Daniel Tanner]

That is not like an urban myth either. You talk to anybody who works in them, you know, and it's like we had one time a play that we eventually made. The whole genesis of the idea is that someone was sitting in the office and they had a dude standing on. On top of a casino ready to jump, you know, and it was just like the standoff. This is like capitalism on steroids out here. They just produce an amount of wealth. It's hard to imagine, like Tesla wealth just. And it's all off this illusion that consumption can fix everything, that you're always one, you know, hot streak away from this lifestyle that's unsustainable. You know, the comp rooms, all the, the big wins. You know, it's like the. The hooker girlfriend on the weekend. It's like it America at its best and worst. However you want to take that.

[Ryan McPherson]

And one of like one of my first recollections of Las Vegas was the tunnels. It was within the first week of ever coming here as an adult. I went down there on a tour with Aware and he was painting and we. I experienced that and experienced what it was like to stand however many, you know, meters underneath, you know, multi billion dollar casinos as these people are shooting drugs and you know, living in sewers to sort of get indecline off the ground here. It's, you know, the city really like it creates the kind of Work and statements. That's like. It's perfect for an indecline.

[Andrew Callahan]

So it gives you a lot to work with.

[Ryan McPherson]

Absolutely.

[Andrew Callahan]

Billboard up that is sure to make people look twice. It says shoot a kid.

[Ryan McPherson]

Two mannequins hanging from nooses on billboards.

[Andrew Callahan]

So backing all the way up, what is in decline and what's the kind of ethos in mission?

[Daniel Tanner]

I mean we're technically for some kind of terminology, an artist collective. It's pretty organic. There's not like a sign up sheet. We're not like the Shriners or you know, like the Odd Fellows or anything, you know, but we work together on all sorts of different projects. People kind of come in and out based on the project because like everybody has different talents. And one of the important things, since we're more message based than we are personality based, is that we try to work with whoever's going to make the idea come to life. I mean the name indecline kind of gives you some idea of what it's about. We certainly came from harder edged, kind of out of the 90s and this gummoe sensibility. But it's the idea that like a lot of the things when you look at the political situation today, everybody would tell you politics are pretty fucked. But like in the late 90s to the early 2000s, this is like peak neoliberalism. Everybody thought America was, you know, Wonder Bread and fucking, I don't know, Monopoly and McDonald's. And it was like, it was pretty widely viewed by the citizens. Here is a good thing, everything else taken for granted. So I think the original ethos that we came out of was to try to show what's going on underneath that fuels the illusion or the dream, you know, the capitalist dream of infinite consumption and infinite wealth, you know, the expense of sweatshops and you know, desperate homeless population living in the tunnels.

[Ryan McPherson]

And structurally it was always really important to make sure that we have so many elements to what we do artistically, you know, and 20 plus years in, you know, tonight we have a theatrical piece. We've got, you know, the film side of things and the documentaries and all that and the performance art. But we've got the guerrilla art installations and the graffiti element, like the punk background and so one of the in the billboard liberation history. So it's the thing that kind of like helps and hurts us the most. It distinguishes us from a lot of different groups and that you can't really put your finger on like what it is we do because we haven't done the same thing for 20 plus years. Like, we like getting involved in things that we're technically like, we have no business being involved in for fear of just getting like burnt out and bored. Like, the point of activism is to have fun. Like, contrary to popular belief, if you're going to engage in this kind of stuff, you need to have fun. It needs to serve a therapeutic purpose as much as it serves a public service purpose.

[Andrew Callahan]

What do you think is the most fun you've ever had doing a spot or doing an installation?

[Ryan McPherson]

I mean, speaking for myself, like, it's really the quiet moments in the midst of the chaos that I really like, revel in. So it's being in between a billboard at 4 in the morning in the deep south with like two of your best friends. Yeah. You just feel invincible up there. You know, the lights are killed.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

You got your little like, you know, in the car, you've got your post job cookie, you know, your little treat that you're going to get for yourself. There's just been so many of those moments where you can just take a second and be like, we're 100ft up in the air right now in Arkansas, and in two hours the sun is going to come up and this city's going to lose its fucking mind.

[Andrew Callahan]

And what did that particular billboard say?

[Ryan McPherson]

It was discovered why Jesus created anal. And there was a hand holding the Bible and we added shit to the fingers. We changed holy Bible to holy shit. And it was just like, probably of all of our work, the most like south park just fart and dick joke thing, but we, you know, it was just like, you got to throw those in every once in a while. And sure enough, like the next morning, there was. Cops were stopping cars on the road. You know, I mean, it was like, meltdown.

[Andrew Callahan]

Is this near Little Rock? You did this? Or is this like bum fuck central?

[Ryan McPherson]

That was a, that was like a rural one. It's, it's funny because you, you trade one thing for the other. When you're in Los Angeles doing billboards, when you're in New York doing billboards, you're looking out for the cops, you're looking out for people. There's billions of surveillance cameras. When you're in the Deep south doing billboards, you're looking out for the pickup truck. There's really no cops. Surveillance is, it's going to be dogs and the random truck that pulls up.

[Andrew Callahan]

So it's good old boys seeking retribution against the liberals. Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

But it's, it, but the, the benefit and the, and the, the leg up. You have in the south is that if you're in Los Angeles and you look up and you see someone on the billboard, think of the graffiti towers. Like, most people know, all right, it's three in the morning, there's guys on billboards are probably tagging it. Like, you could do a billboard at 5:30 in the afternoon, provided you're not writing anal on it in broad daylight. But there's an argument to be made. And we ultimately started doing them at 8 o'cl at night, you know, which was surreal to, like, go home and get a good night's rest and not be doing it leading up to the sunrise, because there was this whole, okay, well, we got to do it as close to sunrise as possible. So it's running when the sun comes up, so the press can come and they can get it and people can see it. If you do it too early, someone's going to see it. It's going to be down in the.

[Daniel Tanner]

Middle of the night.

[Ryan McPherson]

It's like it never happened.

[Andrew Callahan]

So does Midnight Buff Cruise in some of these states?

[Ryan McPherson]

Oh, absolutely. I mean, if you're doing something off Melrose, you know, it's like there's enough ambient light, you can turn the billboard lights off, but, like, somebody's gonna see it. And if it's, if it's, if the message is, like, crazy enough, they're gonna know that it's not some, like, wacky dispensary writing something. You know what I mean? They're like, yeah, that's probably some sort.

[Andrew Callahan]

Of, like, paid street art marketing campaign.

[Ryan McPherson]

Totally. Which, you know, like, it's just, you could. You could write a whole book on it, like, all the pros and cons. Because, like, to that point in la, you could write something pretty outlandish and people could be like, well, of course it says Trump's a cunt on the billboard. Like, who? It's probably a CrossFit gym.

[Andrew Callahan]

And there's corporations that do take on guerrilla marketing campaign tactics.

[Ryan McPherson]

Absolutely.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

And then it's fun to, like, take them on.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

You know what I mean? Like, we were doing Coachella ones because they try to be all clever. So it's like, you go fuck with those ones too.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, it's like the third dimension.

[Daniel Tanner]

Exactly.

[Andrew Callahan]

You're trolling the appropriators.

[Ryan McPherson]

There you go.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

For you, what do you think is the spot that you've been the most stoked under, the project that gave you the most gratification?

[Daniel Tanner]

It's tough because it's kind of like him. The points that, like, I enjoy the most are usually when we're hiding, because those are the moments that you'll stop and, like, you get a lot of adrenaline. And especially if you're hiding for a while, it can be boring. It's like hopping trains. You're on there for a long time. It takes a lot of time. And you'll, like, look up and you'll be like, wow, it's a pretty night out, you know?

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. So it's sort of solemn moments where you're like. Your heart is pumping.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yes.

[Andrew Callahan]

A better question is, like, as far as feedback goes, what's an example where you feel like the message really hit home in the way that you intended?

[Daniel Tanner]

I mean, I got a kick out of when we did the thing with Wild man shaking his hand afterwards, you know, because you just sat there for an hour, and this dude is just, like, ripping the most foul shit out, like, really going to town. And at the end, you just get to shake his hand and be like, it's really nice to meet you, man. I hope you appreciate what we do. The mural. Don't let me forget before I leave, if it's not raining, I want to go up there, if that's cool, and get some pictures so we can.

[Andrew Callahan]

Okay.

[Daniel Tanner]

But you're still okay with us coming back and touching that up?

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, it's okay. You do anything you want to do.

[Ryan McPherson]

I'm glad to have you.

[Daniel Tanner]

Okay.

[Andrew Callahan]

I was glad to meet an enterprising enterpreneur.

[Daniel Tanner]

Don't say we can do anything. We'll put a bunch of smurfs up there. We'll put a bunch of antifa stuff. Smurfs up there.

[Ryan McPherson]

Thank you very much.

[Daniel Tanner]

And it's like. It's all straight face because it's like, it's a hustle. He thinks, you know, he has no idea we're coming back at two in the morning to do Smurfs. Antifa. Smurfs, which is also just hilarious. Underrated.

[Ryan McPherson]

I think it. I think a lot of those, the message gets delivered, but there's probably two articles about it on the Internet, and it's like, you know. But the people that know about it, it's insane. But you go to, like, the Trump Hotel and you install the jail and do the flags. And I'm not saying that project wasn't special and cool, but to me, that's just like, you tee it up for him, you know, we inv. Invited the press in, so the feedback was nuts. It was the front page of the, you know, the Post the next day, and it Was like, a whole thing. We've been doing this long enough where you kind of have to take those moments with a grain of salt, and you. You need to rely on, like, really what it is to drive away from a lot of these moments with your best friends. And it just. You just. You're reminded of why you do it. And it's. It's not about looking the next day and realizing that the Instagram is performing and that the press inquiries are coming in. It's just like, there's going to be a piece of, you know, like, Wheel of Misfortune or some of these other, like, land art pieces that will, you know, be around for quite a long time. And it's a. It's a hell of a feat. Like, people just aren't with that.

[Daniel Tanner]

You know, we're friends. You know, it looks like y' all are friends, too. It's like, oh, yeah, that's really important that we're friends. The best moments are, like, in between. Like, it's all the riffing and stuff going on. All of these are really rewarding to do. And obviously, the more thoughtful a piece is, the less of an immediate impact it's gonna have. Like, I thought that one we did, hello. Was, like, really thoughtful. Was a lot of work, a lot of time investment to just zero coverage.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Daniel Tanner]

Which is fine because you're also kind.

[Andrew Callahan]

Of engaging public interest, too. Like, I've been in the same position where I make a video that's, like, extremely low effort, but it's very topical. Like the Free Luigi rally, for example. I go there, I interview maybe 15 people in Washington Square park who were there to advocate for Luigi's freedom or, you know, at least raise concerns about the health insurance claim denial system. Right. I said, Luigi Benidorm, since he put his pampas on vagabonds, ran out the mouth like a marathon that gets, like, 3 million views in one day. Took me no time. I can spend a year on a documentary about an endangered language or something that isn't, like, at the center of public discussion, and it will have a harder time gaining traction.

[Ryan McPherson]

But you know what? It's gonna be well into your career that those pieces start to rear their head. And there will be so much value to those, trust me. Cause we're starting to see that, you know, like, we had our big art retrospective at Super Chief last fall.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. Channel 5 decline collaboration, by the way.

[Ryan McPherson]

That's true. First time. And it was like. It was when I started to realize, like, oh, you know, people haven't really. With Elo Trello or some of these projects until now. And when I was talking to people or Bill and. And some of the gallery folk, like you started to realize, like, yeah, everyone knows about the Naked Trump, you know, like, they've known about that. So that's worn off. It's. It's. What else has this group done? And it's a. It's a part of the discovery process for me. When I'm first introduced to a band or a filmmaker or, like an author, I love doing the deep dive. I love seeing what they're a part of. And that's. Some of my favorite artists ever are the ones that are always on some different shit, you know? And so I like that we have this body of work where you don't know what your entry to in decline was. It could have been through graffiti. It could have been from our theatrical background. But at some point, you're going to, like, start to hit all those little things and be like, damn, I didn't even know y', all, like, repelled off buildings and did this or whatever.

[Andrew Callahan]

And the cultural zeitgeist. And I feel like y' all have witnessed the transformation of the kind of cannibalistic PC culture and tearing down people upon lines of what could be deemed offensive. I feel like you guys have successfully rode that wave throughout two different decades.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah, well, not without controversy. You know what I mean? Like, it. We always talk about this. We talk about, like, you know, Eminem and some of the things that was, like, that were blasting out of our bedrooms as kids. Totally normal, like, parents weren't batting an eye. The Lollapalooza, you know, fricking Fred Durst era. Just, like, how much intensity there was then. And then, yeah, like, it seemed like we all blinked and something happened.

[Andrew Callahan]

I think the reality of a lot of, like, the fascist undercurrents that were being discussed got super real. And there was kind of this idea of, like, all right, guys, no time for jokes, no time for games. Like, we need to be very serious and very presentable. And I get. I think the fence sitters, like the neoliberals that today are condemning the ice riots, had a lot of headway between 2017 and 2020.

[Daniel Tanner]

Here's the thing is that there's, like, kind of two parties. There's, like, neoliberalism, which is everything up until now. And then there's, like, at least this proto attempt at, like, whatever. You know, if there's, like, the history repeats as a comedy or as a tragedy, and then as a comedy, we're kind of in comedy fascism mode. But neoliberalism pretty much since like the 70s. It's like the two parties. I've heard you talk a lot about this and it's something feel really profoundly. They actually want the same things. Republicans make a tax cut, Democrats extend it, Republicans increase policing, Democrats follow right behind and try to do the same thing. Republicans attack education, Democrats become right behind them and try to like rename the program but keep it basically intact. The project of neoliberalism has been a one party system for a very long time. They're trying to attack education while they increase the surveillance state. And so I think that like there's this inability on the left to confront because the left is a little bit more divided in how it shares power. There is a lot of like, like identity positioning on the left. And so even in Europe you see it more literally there's these coalition governments where several parties will have to get together. But the way that the left disperses power, they're usually signing up for a lot of stuff they don't want to do. And they get very, very absorbed in like the ideology of what they're doing more than the practicality. And it goes into like, it's a lot of white collar, it's a lot of like middle class, a lot more education in the party. There's something they could learn from kind of like the blue collar roots that they originally came from like FDR era. And also that's something that has made the Republican Party very successful is there's a pragmatism to what they do. You could say the pacification, but I would even say it's just, it's too like intellectual and it's like you need to touch things with their hands.

[Andrew Callahan]

I think gentrification here is a huge through line too when it comes to like what you're talking about because like I grew up in the inner city, right? And like none of those like base level identitarian divisions really took hold because we all respect for each other. If you look now, what seem to be the most progressive leftist neighborhoods in the country are also the front lines of gentrification. If you go to Bed Stuy in New York, you will see more flags for leftist causes than anywhere else in the country. Happens to also be the front lines of the class war. So I think there's some kind of like reverse white flight guilt complex that's creating like a corrosive, cannibalistic, self destructive mechanism here. I could be crazy, but it does seem that way.

[Ryan McPherson]

A Lot of it's just branding too, you know, whether it's conscious or subconscious, I feel like some of these things just like follow suit as they need to. And some of it's posturing and you know, and then some of it is guilt. Yeah. It's definitely like ever apparent in any of those cities.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

You go especially over in like Brooklyn and stuff.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. And y' all never cave to any of that sort of thing. And you guys have stayed consistent for quite a long time.

[Ryan McPherson]

There's not enough time for it. You know, I just. We, we have, we haven't even worked hard at. We just. We like to stay independent. I have a firm belief that people can contribute in a myriad of ways to these causes. Some people do it with their wallet. Some people go out like we did and get tear gassed. That's not really like my go to personally. I'll. I'll fuck with it from time to time, you know, but like I know what my strengths are. Same with him. Like, so we try to stay in our lane. It's like just one big game of tug of war.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

You know, and I always just tell people, just get your fucking hands on the rope. That's all that matters. If you want to get a puffy paint sign and stand in front of Hobby Lobby, whatever, like we shouldn't be sitting here and like criticizing.

[Andrew Callahan]

So there's no bad protester.

[Ryan McPherson]

I don't think there's any bad. Don't hurt anybody, you know, I mean, but like at the end of the day, like just get out there and do something because the apathy is what kills us.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. You guys have mentioned two different undercut that kind of occurred around the same time you mentioned surveillance and then also corporatization. So Surveillance 9, 11 is definitely the start point of that. I think corporatization like you were mentioning is like the post Reagan late 90s. I wasn't really around then. Can you guys speak to the difference in that timeline?

[Daniel Tanner]

Well, it's the entirety of what we do is like culture jam. So here's another weird wrinkle. In the 2000s, the big thing on the left was like the protest globalization and then. Yeah, exactly. That's like how it start. Like I remember being young and like being at protests like that and working with like food not bombs because that was one that was around. It's become kind of like co opted by these huge corporations. And these hur corporations are almost out of this phase of capitalism into this weird vector economy where it's not like we're buying stuff. The dream isn't the TV dream anymore. It's not the Simpsons Buy the house.

[Ryan McPherson]

Buy the car, buy the beans.

[Daniel Tanner]

It's like we are literally selling our engagement online. We're selling our personality and getting fed with. I thought money was, was a silly construct, but it's like a little hard on a screen is getting crazy. And that's where people's whole definition comes. That's why there's a lot of the like clicktivism and stuff now because you get more reward and it's a much stronger drug. You know, it's like to get that immediate endorphin rush when you post something and 20 people hit you up because everybody's living in your same bubble. There's something to that in that like information is passed. Sometimes it's passed in that kind of way that would be going to like the virality or even the meme, you know, that's Richard Dawkins back in this 70s writing about it. But at the same time, it's like some things that we do just like getting your hands in it. It's like there's two things every kid should be forced to do. You know, I would say the third thing is maybe some type of psychedelic, but I don't actually think that's good for everybody.

[Andrew Callahan]

Infant microdose, not enough.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah, but a microdose, but like the rainbow. Every kid should go to a protest and get tear gas once.

[Andrew Callahan]

Okay.

[Daniel Tanner]

Just to know like how fragile all this is, this world we live in, you know, and to know that like what it feels like to be on the edge in that fear, because that's what tear gas does, is puts the fear in you your first time. To know what it would feel like to lose that. And every, you know, kid should have to go out and work a soup line and just see how human the people are. Because we live in a first world country, the wealthiest nation on earth that in any major cities has pockets of a third world country. And we wake up every day and on the left especially, we're so certain about what's right and wrong. And yet the phone in your pocket has rare metals that come from a mine. You buy a new one every year. The amount of suffering that comes out of that, so many different things that we do every day just have faceless, distant suffering. Doesn't mean we should like sit here. Like, I'm not into the guilt complex. We're into self awareness and interrupting the kind of auto feed of just doing whatever's in front of you. The instant endorphins, the clicks. That's what culture jamming is about.

[Andrew Callahan]

Totally.

[Ryan McPherson]

That's what consciousness is about.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

Who were the foundational members of indecline?

[Ryan McPherson]

Well, without getting into legal names, Mina Ware was obviously one of the founders, myself. And then we had two other. Two other friends that are no longer.

[Daniel Tanner]

A part of the crew that were.

[Andrew Callahan]

I know how that goes.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

I mean, which is, you know, like, anybody that's been in a band, you know how it knows how that goes. And it was. It wasn't even so much a breakup as it was like some of us got older and realized that we were in it for the long haul, and other people wanted to start families and go work in, like, tech or something, you know, it was just, like, a gradual parting of ways. But, yeah, I mean, Aware and I. I were the remaining kind of, like, founding faction.

[Andrew Callahan]

And can you talk about that first project that really put y' all on the map?

[Ryan McPherson]

The first project to put us on the map? Well, the first. I mean, it depends. Like, the first. The. One of the first things we ever did was a McDonald's billboard here in Vegas.

[Andrew Callahan]

Seven hours ago, McDonald's Corporation ordered the billboard company to take these things down. It's 1106 right now. Take a look. This billboard up here says sausage McMuffin with E. Coli, not egg. And this is not the only one in town. The signs are altered so well that you may not even notice when you drive by.

[Daniel Tanner]

Really pay attention to the signs.

[Andrew Callahan]

I mean, I see McDonald's.

[Ryan McPherson]

That's it. I don't read what they say, which was national news coverage. But it wasn't long after that the bum fights came out, and that was its own, like, wake up one day and think, what the fuck did we just do? One of the many misconceptions about it is that it had been. Most of the content in that was filmed in the years, you know, when we were 15, 16, 17 years old, and then sort of compiled later as a part of this bigger video. So to sort of watch those things, like, retroactively, almost, like, blow up the way it did. Like, you just. You've seen it for years, you know, and then you. You put a new thing on it, you send it out, and then Howard Stern mentions it, and it's like, oh, we're. Things are changing.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. You know, I mean, I look back at content that I made when I was 21 years old, and I'm like, fuck, I wish I didn't make that video. I can't imagine 15, 16, 17.

[Ryan McPherson]

I think that yeah, it was a really a fascinating time to look back on because when you're that age, I mean this was the, the premise was very simple. It was like we're all skate rats. We're just like we're going to go skate where we don't get with. Where is that? Behind grocery stores. Who hangs out behind grocery stores? Homeless people. So who do you become friends with? Who are you like around with all day? You know, like the local homeless guys that you're seeing every day at your skate spot. We didn't have skate parks at that particular. They hadn't started building those yet really for everybody. And so we were still on the loading docks. And so it was like like these two subcultures, you know, essentially that like needed to go somewhere where there was shade and places to piss and hang out and do your thing. At that time you had high 8, 8 millimeter like super affordable cameras. Everyone got their hands on them and it was just like, all right, cool, this dude's doing a skate trick, this dude's over here doing some crazy. And it all just like developed into tapes and tapes of tapes of crazy until one, one idiot had the idea of putting it all together and taking every high school fight that we'd filmed every and then going out for however many weeks here in Vegas and then releasing it to the world. And yeah, to say that like there's been projects we've done where I've known the second it's like the Trump statues, like it was a no brainer. Like the second this is done it's gonna fucking go nuts. There was no expectation with that. And to like watch that do what it did was pretty wild. Especially at a time where like VHS tapes were the main output, you know.

[Andrew Callahan]

Did you guys shoot that on V cameras?

[Ryan McPherson]

We shot some of the final stuff on VX cameras, but a lot of it was shot on HI8 tapes.

[Andrew Callahan]

Okay, cool.

[Ryan McPherson]

So like most of that source material is like dates way back to like 8 millimeter and high eight tapes. Yeah, so we're talking like 97, 98, you know, like and then VX's game later.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah, and it's like a different, like one of the misconceptions too is that you'd have to like dial back to the 90s to know what it's contemporaneous with. Just to give context where maybe the impetus came from. It was like the era of Girls Gone Wild, Tom Green, Jackass, like all these things that like were influencing it. And then at the same time it was like gummoe. And you have like all these kind of weird film because, you know, obviously that's an influence too. So this crazy, even down to like, Unshen andalou. And so it's this kind of like, heavily shocking. And then you're living in this counterculture and then all these places, Southern California, Las Vegas had perfected the dream versus underbelly dichotomy that you have going. And if you are doing skate boarding, it's different. There's no Nyjah Houston. The X Games are like, just starting. You know, it's like, Tony Hawk is not the level of famous he is. Tony Hawk's pro skater is just coming out. It was a lot more of a countercultural activity. This is one thing I would like to address and maybe you can help out with because, like, I've watched and I went. And like, for example, dear Kelly, you have this entire thing where you're spending time with this person now. There's a lot of people who, for example, might be on the left and watch what you do and think that you're just like, taking the piss out of them. But I, when I view that stuff and listening to the way you talk about it, I think there's a real sensibility of, like, caring. Politics hasn't always been the most important thing. Right. I think there's some of that in this, too, that it wasn't like this antagonistic relationship. It was like he said, you're hanging out together. There's real relationships there. You know, would even go to say friendships with a lot of the people. Absolutely. Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

I mean, I remember sitting in court playing tapes from multiple years worth of Thanksgivings and Christmases and explaining to, like, the prosecutor, like, there's a reason this isn't in the video. There's a reason that one of the main pieces of evidence that we introduced that got us out of a lot of trouble was the raw footage of Aware and I breaking up a fight. And you could audibly hear us saying, stop, stop. And we played that in court and the judge was like, what's the problem? And we just had. We're like, we're not going to put that. Like, we're, we're, we're. We weren't interested in doing a documentary at 16 years old.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

You know, and flash forward to being like, 18, 19. Like, we were growing up watching, like, I mean, gummo couldn't have been more influential. Right. So for us, it's like, this is our gummo. Like, let's make something that sure we'll call it a cause for concern. That's the indecline part of it. That's the, like. If you. If you look at that subtitle, that's that little. Like, we're making a statement. But really it's going to be 50 minutes of what the fuck, man? Like, this is. This is it. And we followed up with it's worse than you think, which was a lot more, I think, like pointed and. And sort of an accurate depiction of saying like, this is. This is what we were trying to do. We should have never called it Bum Fights. Frankly, I think that was the biggest fuck.

[Andrew Callahan]

I think the title fucked it up. But it also led to a lot of sales too. But if you watch the video, there's no time in the movie where you're paying bums.

[Daniel Tanner]

Exactly.

[Andrew Callahan]

There's people fighting in high school, you guys skating, and then bums just doing shit.

[Ryan McPherson]

It was the word. Yeah, but you're right. If it weren't for that name, you know, we could have called it something completely different. But that name did everything. And, you know, the irony is that it wasn't out for six months, maybe four. And the four indecline people that were associated with it, we all just sold the rights to it and fucked off. We got rid of it as soon as we possibly could because we had bigger aspirations. And we were like, okay, this. This did what? We don't need this anymore.

[Andrew Callahan]

So how old were you when you sold the rights?

[Ryan McPherson]

18.

[Andrew Callahan]

Damn. So that Dr. Phil interview that most people credit as being an interview with the Bum fights director. And Dr. Phil is not actually you guys.

[Daniel Tanner]

Not at all.

[Ryan McPherson]

That went into a whole another realm. And. And it's a. It's like a kind of a different chapter interview completely. But, like, the fascinating thing about that was when we sold the rights, the criminal and civil investigations were heating up. So you have the people we sold it to who now own the rights to it. So it's in their best interest to get on TV and do the most outlandish press.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

Release the sequels.

[Andrew Callahan]

And as a marketing, as a market.

[Ryan McPherson]

So when they're doing interviews, talking about how they've made millions and they've got tigers in their house and they're gonna like. And granted, the Phil thing was brilliant. It was fucking hilarious. But we're catching. For all everyone knows, it's like. It's just the bum fights, guys, you know, so we. We had to go face all the fallback from that. And luckily, you know, this is just a lesson to anybody in, like, Your profession and ours don't hit stop, like, let that camera roll. Because it could be the difference, especially this day and age, between. Between a long prison sentence and a judge saying, what's the problem here? These kids can go free. You know, if it weren't for us, just like always, rolling camera. We wouldn't have hours of that, like, supplemental footage to go. Listen, there's no, there's nothing to market here. But you need to understand, like he said, these, these are people we care about.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

You're dealing with two different things. Like most situations, there's another side to this. And like, yeah, I know the easy story here is that, like, punk skate kids, like went and did this thing. But in reality, reality there is a difference between handing someone $5 in anticipation that they're going to do something to hurt themselves and spending a day documenting their life, which is going to involve drinking. It's going to involve extracting a tooth, possibly with or without you there with the camera. Anyone that's been around this knows that. And handing someone that $5 at the end of the day and being like, grab Taco Bell, man.

[Daniel Tanner]

Have a good night.

[Ryan McPherson]

We'll see you, you know, whatever. And that's just such a fine line for people. And for us it was another Tuesday night.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. There's a very special bond between, I think, like teenage delinquents. Like, I grew up in Seattle, which is also kind of a Lords and peasants style thing where you have massive glass condominiums and expensive luxury homes. Then you look under a bridge and there's thousands of homeless people doing their thing. There's a special union between kids who want to skate, drink, smoke, kick it, and local homeless people.

[Daniel Tanner]

Absolutely.

[Andrew Callahan]

Because you can't go to bars, you can't be in the streets because your parents might find you or you could have trouble with the cops. So you become really close friends with the local homeless population. Really do I remember, like, every bum that lived near my mom's spot was like my home. Homeboy.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah. Well, they look out for you and you look out for them. You know, my particular case, it felt like south park in the sense that there was like, oh, these are the two dudes.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

You know what I mean? Like, it wasn't like Vegas where there was hundreds of homeless people. I mean, they're just like, yeah, there was two guys that everybody in the community knew.

[Andrew Callahan]

And where was the first scenes filmed?

[Ryan McPherson]

Well, both places. So where was out here. And then other scenes were filmed in San Diego area.

[Andrew Callahan]

What were the name of those Two.

[Ryan McPherson]

Dudes, Rufus and Donnie.

[Andrew Callahan]

And those are the most famous guys.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah, I mean and Rufus was, was introduced to us from. I mean this again, this was like back when we were a lot younger, but it was like the older kids, these older like college kids saying, you know, there's a homeless guy that's like a stunt bum, right? And just putting us on to a guy that like did crazy and like what 15 year old, 16 year old kid isn't gonna like go visit Rufus and be like, what the fuck? You know, he's like, oh yeah, this is my deal.

[Daniel Tanner]

So I just wanna, yeah, a couple things too. Just while we're talking about it to give people some peace of mind. We wouldn't do that as like much older people today because that's part of being like 15, 16, 17. Like there's no version of today that happens without that. It's so formative in who we are to this day. The anonymity isn't just about like protecting ourselves, but it's also a thing you learn seeing like that was one of the first viral things, that was one of the first cancellations.

[Ryan McPherson]

Why in the world world would anybody buy this thing?

[Daniel Tanner]

It's like there's a lot of stuff that we didn't have. The lexicon, the vocabulary for today and living. It was good for our future in helping us to be focused on what we want to do 20 years later. You know, there's going to be people who are going to be convinced that we're absolutely awful human beings for that and completely understand that that's everybody's right. No one agrees on everything. We like to think that 20 years of work has shown where our intentions lie, but also understand that everybody's entitled to an opin and also just while we're on it, like, and for those who think there haven't been consequences, it's like there have 20 years of them. It's like down to like it affects your professional life, even your dating life. It's like it's a huge thing that we have like and we'll continue to pay and also just like aren't even complaining because like we've reached a moment where we do things that we believe in. Anybody who's trying to do art that's going to push the edge of culture or be there is going to up at times. We're not perfect people. Some friends of our said heroes are human, you know, and sometimes humans are trash. And it's like even with our best intentions, we even make mistakes. That would be the Furthest projects we've done. And I'm sure that you've done that, like, going back, wouldn't do that again, you know.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, I used to feel bad. I used to, like, you know, my, my earlier style was kind of ambush oriented when I first started because that was the easiest way to make a name for yourself is like, yeah, I wasn't trying to make people look stupid, but I felt bad because I would present as like a friend to somebody deep down. I, like, deeply disagree with them and like, wanted to lampoon them in some capacity. I was 21, not 16. But I look back and think, man, I wish I would have, like, kept it more real and at least even just told them, hey, I'm trying to make a funny documentary. I'm not asking for your serious opinion about the flat earth.

[Ryan McPherson]

You might not be sitting here though, if you did that. And that's the thing about, like kickstarting a career when you're young is, you know, we jumped head first into this. We bypassed all formal training, we bypassed all, all the necessary education. We became, you know, sociologists and documentarians and all these things at a young age just because it was fascinating. One of our first projects was like, on one hand a massive thing, but also like life altering totally. So I wouldn't change it for the world because, I mean, it's, it's why I'm sitting here. And it's also been fun to like, you get further enough beyond fund it. And I'm starting. I almost disagree what he was saying about, like, how 20 years from now, like, I think 20 years from now, I don't know that it will become any worse than it was like when we were talking about, you know, like the post, you know, the pussification era. I feel like it's gonna like, look where we're living now.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

You know, like how, how things are and how ridiculous, like bum fights to explain it to somebody now feels so much more tangible came than it did like in 2010, you know, and so I don't know, I wouldn't be surprised if it was on the Criterion channel one day.

[Andrew Callahan]

That's probably the only silver lining in the Trump era. The only one.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

Well, and ironically, like that whole demographic, you're telling me Joe Rogan and all those people, like, wouldn't fuck with it, you know, like. And so I just don't, you know, like, whatever, it's not even worth talking about. We're not going to do another bum fights. But it's just funny to think about, like, How. How crazy it's.

[Andrew Callahan]

You know, I kind of want.

[Daniel Tanner]

Steve doesn't. With this.

[Ryan McPherson]

Stevo hates us, bro.

[Andrew Callahan]

What do you say?

[Daniel Tanner]

Sorry, Steve O. I'm not heartbroken that Stevo doesn't.

[Ryan McPherson]

Like, you put Verner Herzog in that situation, and then I'd be heartbroken totally.

[Andrew Callahan]

You know what I mean?

[Ryan McPherson]

But it's like, it's Stevo, but we always think it's funny that, like, he.

[Andrew Callahan]

Kind of is a stunt bump.

[Ryan McPherson]

He kind of is the original.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. You know what I mean?

[Ryan McPherson]

That's why he hates us.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Daniel Tanner]

I wanted to say something, though, to circle back on the left now.

[Andrew Callahan]

Now.

[Daniel Tanner]

Now that we've kind of talked about this, it makes it easier to mention that one of the wild things to me about the left right now is that, like, I've always been someone who's concerned with what we were saying. Surveillance policing since I was young. You know, it's like, we're not just like anarchists technically. Like, we've got library educations, but, you know, we're not like theorists or anything. There's much smarter people that people should be reading. That's why we're not writing. Writing theory books, but, like, in spirit. We grew up that way. One of the problems with the way that we have developed this concept, cancel culture, which I also hate, because it's just another one of those terms that, like, it's just become. It's propaganda in general. It's so weighted before you even talk about it.

[Andrew Callahan]

A cancel culture is about canceling.

[Ryan McPherson]

And that's one of the things that we got to focus on as a.

[Daniel Tanner]

Movement on the political right.

[Ryan McPherson]

Breaking through the cancel culture.

[Daniel Tanner]

Breaking through the censorship.

[Andrew Callahan]

Censorship.

[Ryan McPherson]

The goal of Cancel Culture is to.

[Andrew Callahan]

Make decent Americans live in fear of being fired, expelled, shamed, humiliated, and driven from society as we know it. Well, I mean, I want to differentiate the two terms, because when people say cancel Culture on the right wing, they typically mean getting banned from Facebook for speaking about the vaccine. They typically mean the fact that Roseanne can't go back on Nickelodeon. I think on the left, what that refers to is, like, the systematic social exile that happens when somebody either is makes a mistake or goes against the mainstream opinion.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah.

[Daniel Tanner]

So if you don't have accountability and a path to restitution, then you're in the French Revolution. And if you remember how that ended, Robespierre was the last dude with his head on the guillotine. It's like. And it's the same thing. It's like. And to be honest, because being an Anarchist. I remember every great socialist revolution and every great fascist, you know, like the Nazis, you know, like Mussolini. The first thing they all do is kill the anarchists. It doesn't matter if it's Stalin or Lenin or, like, Hitler. All of them come straight for that because they all are fighting for who gets to be the police. I think the better thing is to encourage people to live in a world where we can have open lines of communication with each other that encourage people to give up maybe ignorant ideas and to grow together. You know, it's like, that's something you talk about in Dear Kelly and a lot of your projects, you know, in the tunnels, is the idea of wanting to help people. And I don't think we've ever lost that either. It's like poetry post. The entire debacle with the origins of indecline. I'll still go do soup lines. And we're still involved with helping, like, people in unhoused spaces. Don't like the term on house because I do feel they're being deprived. Houses exist, so they're being deprived of the houses they could be living in by exorbitant wealth. It's not like, especially here today, solving the problem.

[Ryan McPherson]

It shows that anyway.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Daniel Tanner]

But it's like. But the whole idea is that, like, the people I'd like the least, you know, the people whose ideas I disagree with the most strongly, I would pick any one of them over a system. Anarchism is just believing in people over the constructs they invent. People are very complicated. They're capable of great. The worst person is capable of a truly selfless act. And the best person is capable of being an absolute piece of shit. And it's like, if you haven't figured that out again, again, experience might teach you that, you know, like, that's the biggest thing out of the early part of our careers. I think it was like this crazy instant education in kind of the mechanics of that, in, like, forgiveness, redemption. But more just like, even for us, accountability. How we talk about projects today like, we're clowns. That's our thing. Yeah, but, like, we're surprisingly thoughtful for clowns because we've learned that you need to be. Because the biggest thing is not whether people don't like you. It's whether the thing that you've put all your time and energy into as an artist is being heard the way you'd like it to be heard. And if you do all that and then it just gets thrown out, it's like, that almost hurts worse Than like, someone doesn't like you. Like, if you're an artist, you're already used to being a little quirky and weird and people aren't going to like you, you know, but it's like, you don't want to be misrepresented, so it makes you more thoughtful. I hope that's something even for you. You know, it's like, I've been watching, and I'm super impressed. It's like, you've been incredibly thoughtful, and I think it's why you found such a good path towards integration, is that it's hard to argue with the message of what you're doing. It's like, people are people.

[Andrew Callahan]

We live in a world where civil court is the only form of accountability for slander.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

And unfortunately, I don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing. But it's interesting that, you know, anyone can say anything about anyone.

[Daniel Tanner]

And if there's a problem, the problem isn't what celebrities do. It's like, who gives a fuck about Kanye or Beyonce? It's like, there's real people in your lives. You could be, like, helping out out. You know, it's like, what's important is the idea that celebrity exists is something so and out of kilter in our culture. The idea. It's like. It's like we're still their religions. You know, it's a harvest ritual where we just, like, put a person up at the pedestal so we can burn them at the end of the season and our crops come back.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

And it's like, well, hence the masks.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

That's a big part of this is like, obviously there's a. There's a tactical. It's a safety precaution, but it also. It insulates us from having a face, from having a voice, from having a spokesperson.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

You know, like alternating interviews, you know, changing things up enough so that, like, you don't have to worry about, like, that representative being, you know?

[Andrew Callahan]

I mean, when you pedestalize a single person, they become an object of scorn.

[Ryan McPherson]

Or they end up like Fred Hampton, murder by CIA.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

You know what I mean? I mean, listen, I'm not, you know, I'm not. I'm just saying, like, you fucking. I'm happy to sit here and, like, do this. On the verge of heat stroke with a mask on, because it's like, you got it.

[Andrew Callahan]

And not to mention, we're committed to Nevada, a unit. You guys live here. But I actually have Nevada tied on my arm. And this was done five years ago. So I didn't get this for before the interview.

[Ryan McPherson]

Exactly.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah. So I would be sick if you did. That would be a fly.

[Andrew Callahan]

I want to back up though for the real bum fights nerds out there. Was Bling Bling found in California or Nevada?

[Ryan McPherson]

He was found on the boulevard here.

[Andrew Callahan]

You're going to hear this. I win for government.

[Ryan McPherson]

You're going to hear this.

[Andrew Callahan]

Fremont or Strip? Strip where?

[Ryan McPherson]

World's largest gift shop in front of Banana there behind, right in front of it. Las Vegas Boulevard. Sahara.

[Andrew Callahan]

At the stoplight right there. Okay. What was he doing?

[Ryan McPherson]

He had a Winnie the Pooh PJ set. Like the first time we met him. I'm assum. Yeah, he was. Yeah, he had a good little fit going. He had like a Winnie the Pooh thing. He had a tin foil sort of like head dress looking thing that he made for himself. And he was just like performing like right out the gate. What was the rapper that just hit us up?

[Daniel Tanner]

Oh, should we say that?

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah. Fuck yeah.

[Daniel Tanner]

Lil Uzi Vert.

[Ryan McPherson]

Lil Uzi Vert.

[Andrew Callahan]

Lil Uz. Rosie Vert is interested in locating the whereabouts of Bling Bling.

[Ryan McPherson]

Rosie Vert just sent us a check to sample Bling Bling on his new record Fuck yeah. Which quote, it was one of the songs, it was like something about aliens. One of his, like alien songs.

[Andrew Callahan]

I had contact with extraterrestrial beings, my brother. When you're abducted by beings, you go to three encounters. Close Encounters of the First Kind, Close Encounters of the Second Kind and Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

[Ryan McPherson]

And so we actually, we need to track Blingworld because the record came out. We talked with the label. The track got scrapped or the intro got scrapped. But they, but they cut us a check. And so we're like, we're trying to like find him and get him his money.

[Andrew Callahan]

I've seen a couple videos of Bling Bling. One in San Francisco, in the Tenderloin, One downtown la. Do we have any update as to his whereabouts?

[Ryan McPherson]

So the last time we heard from him, he was in San Francisco, ironically enough, right around the corner from where we had filmed some scenes for it's worse than you think. There was a halfway house there that was like a One Flew Over a Cuckoo's Nest situation. So he was there, but like he'll pop into a rehab thing, get a phone, and then, you know, 48 hours later he's gone. And I mean, such is our relationship with him, you know, you get a call from jail, you get a call from a random cell phone number that he has access to for half a day. And I. I think really the only way to do it is to just get, like. You gotta either have a good comrade with the time and the patience in that town, or you just gotta, like, be there at the right time.

[Daniel Tanner]

Let's do this. If you're watching this and you've spotted Bling Bling lately, please tell him to get in contact. He knows who to get in contact.

[Ryan McPherson]

And if you're watching this, do not tell him Lil Uzi Vert fucking sent us. Tell him that we need to get some money to him. But the last time a rapper fucked with him, it was Ice Cube in the west side connection. They put a bum fights quote on a Westside connection. We made the mistake of telling him that, and 48 hours later, he had west side Connection tattooed across his shoulders.

[Andrew Callahan]

The point being, even decades later, you guys still want to help him if you can?

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Daniel Tanner]

Well, no, it's not help. It's his. He earned it.

[Ryan McPherson]

Let me tell you, like, one of the coolest things ever was, like, living in San Diego with Bling Bling as a neighbor and watching a crackhead get fat.

[Andrew Callahan]

You got him clean for a bit?

[Ryan McPherson]

100%.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah, like, fat.

[Andrew Callahan]

He got fat, like, 250.

[Daniel Tanner]

He got big.

[Ryan McPherson]

Dude, like, got his teeth fixed, put on weight, and was, like, actually fucking doing, like, living his best life. Life. Yeah, you know, like, had responsibilities, had a little cash in his pocket. And that was just, like, always the thing with. With these relationships and these stories we tell people. It's like, yeah, man. There was a time where, like, Bling was on some. And we put a camera on it. But, like, it was no different with Rufus and Donnie. Like, we put 40 grand in a bank account for them. We had a trustee situation. There was rent, there was apartment keys. There was like, you're off the streets now. Here's your groceries every week. You want a sex worker, we got you. You know? Yeah, just let's ease up on the drinking. That's the only thing we ask.

[Daniel Tanner]

Because it's the.

[Ryan McPherson]

It's the one thing that's going to keep you in this situation. You know, like, no one's enforcing anything, but it's like, we can get you on a path. And then you wake up one day and some attorneys kidnap them and take him to California to sue us.

[Andrew Callahan]

If I'm not mistaken, those dudes got something not maybe not a book deal.

[Ryan McPherson]

Well, Rufus did a book with this, like, vulture that grabbed him and, you know, whispered in his ear and, I mean, we weren't in a really great position at that time, you know, I mean, especially once they were taken, because it was misrepresentation of, like, they're attorneys, they're going to tell them they're going to make a lot of money and then they're. Of course they're not. And we sat across from those tables with those same attorneys, and we were like, we'll spend all this money. Like, you'll never get a dime out of us. You know what I mean? Like, we. We will take care of these guys on our own time, but it's not going to be through you.

[Andrew Callahan]

So we know one of them passed away.

[Ryan McPherson]

Rufus Dynamic car wreck.

[Andrew Callahan]

Were you able to reconcile with him before that?

[Ryan McPherson]

We never got in touch with him, no. Which is a major bummer because, yeah, like, Rufus was like. He was a real one for sure. And so, yeah, a lot of good times. Like, you know, met all our parents, you know, like, the dude was like a part of the family for sure. You know, like, went through some stuff. But like, eventually, you know, one of the big ironies with that story is like, the running theme of exploitation and manipulation. And to get to a point where the chapter becomes. Came when the suits got involved and the exploitation, the manipulation that happened, like, behind closed doors. And just that moment where we all realize, like, oh, they're actually going to fuck this dude. Like, they just took him out of the only house. He's back on the streets now.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

Like, he had ac. He had a pool. He was. You know what I mean? Like, he was. He was fine. And now he's back on the streets being promised millions of dollars. He'll never.

[Andrew Callahan]

A lot of people don't understand that, like, the coercive force of, like, media outlets, journalists, and also attorneys, like, they will look for a star victim in any situation.

[Ryan McPherson]

Oh, absolutely. That's for sure.

[Andrew Callahan]

There's no rhy. We were being used for their personal gain.

[Daniel Tanner]

You know, another term that I saw you use in an interview that I love is explaining to people the difference between, for example, journalism and punditry. You know, and it's like there is an entire. A new thing, a media ecosystem that's just built around the spectacle of things that maybe started around that time. That's also the beginning of, like, reality television. Springer, you know, and so, yeah, Springer was like, well, Springer was a little bit before that, but.

[Andrew Callahan]

You mean content based solely around outrage?

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Daniel Tanner]

And outrage, again, being the dopamine fix.

[Andrew Callahan]

It's like that's the commodity that's Higher than information.

[Daniel Tanner]

But it's also, you know, it's kind of like a necrotic emotion. Like it doesn't really build or lead. There's no wisdom at the end of that tunnel. It just kind of burns up the inside of us. You want to know what's radical politics right now? There's a lot of things, but one thing is just to look at your friends and remind them it's going to be okay. People live through Nero. You know, people have lived through like real genocides and found like meaning in life and live lives. People lived through Russia when they were in Bread Lines. You know, it's like people have done so many crazy things and yet like the ego driven part of every one of us believes we are the exact center of not just the universe, but history. You know, I don't give a shit about Trump, Biden and many of them. We only talk about him so much because he likes to talk about him. That's the joke of it. He's the reality television president. You know, most of them were doing this neoliberalism thing and then it became the cult of personality. But like the radical thing is to remind people that they are also contributing to that and take our licks for that because we did the statues and all that. It was a joke, but like, sure, yeah, at some point it's just like if that's all you can talk about, if that's your entire personality as being against the guy, then he already beat you. You know, it's like if you can't come up with any positive construction for the world, you want to oppose it and all you can say is not that guy. That guy's the worst.

[Ryan McPherson]

It's like in general too, like if you can't, you have to be able to speak about what you're. What are you for? Yeah, yeah, it's very, it's very easy to talk about what you're against. You know, like talk to any straight edge vegan. They're the most negative people and then eventually, you know, maybe they'll get around to saying something. Yeah, they're just angry all the fucking time.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. They're talking about a factory farm and you're like, geez, I know, I know, it sucks. There's a smile.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah, the music sucks. You're fucking. You know. But it's like you do think straight.

[Andrew Callahan]

Edge music sucks compared to the punks who drink.

[Ryan McPherson]

I think straight edge music is like tolerable at best.

[Andrew Callahan]

Straight up.

[Ryan McPherson]

And I've been straight edge for fucking ever, you know. But it's like, listen, I fuck with it. But like, I'm not going to lie. It's. It's a, it's a spoonful at a time.

[Andrew Callahan]

Dude, you guys mentioned San Diego. So when y', all were, when you, when you guys were young, was there like legit Nazi punk bands in like El Cajon and out there in the.

[Ryan McPherson]

And Santi Clan Tea.

[Andrew Callahan]

So that's a real thing?

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

Cuz my homie told me that like back in San Diego in the, in the 90s and 80s, there was legitimately rivalries between fascist and anti fascist punk bands. Like it's England. Did that, you know, persist throughout the turn of the millennium?

[Ryan McPherson]

Well, I mean, we kind of got out of there at some point, but like, I certainly remember in the 90s, like Clan T got its name for a reason.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

You know, and it wasn't.

[Andrew Callahan]

I guess just for me, it's unfathomable to think about a fascist punk.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah. I mean, it's definitely there. People are so familiar. Dumb. Look, if. If people can misconstrue Ridge against the Machine lyrics the way they do. I mean, we've worked with so many bands and you know, the most like politically outspoken punk bands, we'll do like a, a thing with them or music video with them. And then we always laugh because people get in the comments. And when you work with us, like there's gonna be, it's, it's not gonna be sugarcoated. And they'll be like, oh man, since when did you guys get so political? It's like, what are you listening to? Like, this is. And I think it's genuinely like shit they listen to at the gym or something. It's like their pump up stuff like rage. Like, sure, it would be great to. But if you're not listening to the lyrics, like, what are you doing? So I think that's where you end up with that infusion.

[Andrew Callahan]

I want to talk to you guys. Pivoted headquarters around 2020. I remember we talked back then because we've been in touch for what, seven, eight years. I remember you told me, you're like, dude, I feel like we've kind of done what we can out here in California and on the frontier. We want to move to Mississippi.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

I want to talk about what caused that and how that was allegedly. Yeah, we moved.

[Ryan McPherson]

George Floyd happened. And you know, like anybody in our field, we were, we were talking about racial inequality, police brutality, all these things. And for us that's like, that's always on the docket. But There just became a time, it was that summer when we were riding freight trains through the Deep south, which is something we do often, and then took a road trip through the Delta and yeah, it was just like heavy on our mind.

[Andrew Callahan]

You guys went to Clarksdale and Yazoo City.

[Ryan McPherson]

We went all over. Yeah, we fucked with the Delta, dude. Dope.

[Andrew Callahan]

It's dope.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah, but it just, I had, you know, like, I'd always loved the south and there just sort of became this like, I don't know, it's just dwelling on the hypocrisy, I guess, of like, does LA need another anti racist political protest piece right now? You know, there's enough of that happening.

[Andrew Callahan]

So it wasn't because you felt like racism on the west coast got fixed. You felt like it had been co opted by people who are just like, don't care.

[Ryan McPherson]

I think it just became more about, like I knew for certain that if indecline was operating in Arkansas, Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi, places in this country that are severely overlooked in every sense of the word. Every budget, every. Everything that like that work for the. The people that lived in those states that felt the way we felt, it would, it would just, it would make more of a difference. You know, it just, it's like we were talking about all these things with historical roots in those cities and states. States, but yet we're like sitting at a coffee shop in Silver Lake plotting our next thing, you know, like surrounded by people of different ethnicities, you know, and so. And sure enough, it was like, it wasn't our first billboard that we did in the south. And it was something regarding women's reproductive rights. And it became apparent with the reaction, both the public and the press that like, this is where we need to be. Like, we need to work out here.

[Daniel Tanner]

And. And it's like, you know, we're like, of course we wish we were like Bobby Seale and Huey P. Newton, but we're not. We're like Jerry Rubins and Abby Hoffman.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah, and Andy Kaufman.

[Daniel Tanner]

And Andy.

[Andrew Callahan]

That's right.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

Real method actors.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah, yeah. But for what we do in particular, humor is at the root of it. Humor is the best way to get people you don't agree with to pause long enough to listen to what you're saying. It's actually the way to get through to them. Just like freestyling is. That's universal language and so is a joke. In fact, you can go watch like the one where we did the God Bless Abortions. There are literally people whose entire life, their content, creation or creators, their entire thing is anti abortion that are cracking up on set in the middle of their thing, talking about how outraged they are. They just don't see shit like that. There's the mischievous kid in everybody that's just like, you're not supposed to do that in Snickers. Everybody's so jaded on the west coast, it's like they have racism there too. And the east coast gentrification, you talking about it earlier, it's like, they still have it, they just don't talk about it. Yeah, but down there, it's like you can, like, culture jamming is. It's like a defibrillator. It just interrupts people's normal relationship with the day and maybe their brain just automatically resets and they'll be like, oh, yeah, this is propaganda. This billboard's propaganda. McDonald's is actually not food. It's dog. You know, it's dog in a fancy.

[Ryan McPherson]

Wrapper talking to a newsroom reporter. Fifty plus years after billboard liberation was sort of conceived and put into practice.

[Andrew Callahan]

Turning strategic corporate elements back on themselves in a manner which is itself invisible.

[Ryan McPherson]

And like, listening to her come to the realization that that's what happened to the billboard was crazy.

[Andrew Callahan]

Like, how long did it take?

[Ryan McPherson]

Like a full. We were. Because I just get into it automatically thinking, like, of course, you know, know that the stickers or pasters were put up there under the COVID of darkness. It's just one big assumption because how else would have that, you know? Yeah, it was, it was like a full reset. Let's go back to the beginning. And then like walking her through, step by step. No, we drove there at night, we turned the lights off, we climbed up. We put that up. No, the billboard company doesn't know about it. No, we didn't have permission. And yeah, like he said, the, the little, like the laughter and that, like, little, like.

[Daniel Tanner]

Okay, yeah, well, I, I with. I can't say anything about it.

[Ryan McPherson]

But, like, that's what's up. That's dope. And so it, it just feels we're not in it for. We don't need pats on the. Like, we know when we do a good job. You know, like, we, we, we know when we're, when we fuck up, where we, we hold ourselves accountable more than, like, more than anybody. There's that part in us, just that natural. Like, you know, I always remind people, when you grow up skateboarding or you grow up in graffiti, the basis of those art forms is ch. Challenge. It's looking at something and being like, I I. I want to do that. I hope I can do that. I hope I don't break my nap. I hope I don't get arrested. I hope I don't die. You know, and with our kind of activism, you know, can we form a relationship with a raging Confederate racist for six months and convince him to paint his building? Can we paint an entire Runway? Can we stage a theatrical play that like, you know, all of those things are challenges. And to do those in rural Alabama. Alabama, when you know that it's like not a trespassing charge that you're gonna get when those headlights hit you. It's the best of everything, you know, Especially when that next day rolls around and the sun comes up and you've got every women's reproductive center in the entire area in other states sending you messages of support and you're able to funnel those donations that you're getting off the T shirts that you made from that project, raise those. Like, what more could you ask for? Off of having fun, off of making jokes, you know, off of not being negative and spending time with your friends. It's the greatest possible way to live life. So, you know, thinking of that, I didn't even have to move to the south to know that that's what would happen. That's, that's the. It was so obvious to me on that train trip, you know, while we were all talking about it and the turnaround was almost immediate. It was like two months later and BU hall was on the road.

[Andrew Callahan]

Is there ever a concern about like going to jail for a long time and getting hemmed up on. On the fact federal level?

[Daniel Tanner]

I mean, you hope not, but yeah, anybody who plays this game, it's like, it's a possibility. You know, you have a graffiti background. It's like that's a possibility all the time. People end up, even when they don't go to jail, people just end up so mired in the system, fighting charges, pleading. They just, you know, it's like you do activism and protest. Look what they did to those kids in Cop city and I'm sure in Atlanta. Yeah. And I'm sure, like go read into it.

[Ryan McPherson]

Georgia launched a crackdown on the movement, characterizing it as a violent extremist organization. And in September, 61 people were charged.

[Daniel Tanner]

In a wide ranging racketeering case beyond just like shooting tear gas at them. The, the stuff they did, the tactics they used with the legal system to try to fucking ruin those kids lives, to just drop charges when they were done. Absolutely. Them up, you know, for several Years.

[Ryan McPherson]

It's like, well, fucking up the protest movement too, because it' that the tactic is terrorism charges.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

Most of them are also facing state domestic terrorism charges. The first such cases in Georgia's history. And as soon as you start putting federal, you know, those gnarly charges on people, it's obviously built to be to dissuade them. And it works like a charm.

[Andrew Callahan]

You guys ever caught a T bird?

[Ryan McPherson]

No, we have never caught a T bird. As crazy as a lot of this stuff looks, these projects have so many weeks and sometimes months of planning, planning and discussions. It's like the most well oiled bank robbery you could imagine. Every billboard, every project. Not just the like execution of the thing, but all of the fallout conversations and all of the like, okay, let's just say everything goes wrong. Like what are we looking at here? Is this, is it worth it? You know, is there, or is there a more creative way to do this with like the same punchline that doesn't involve the federal charge? You know, so. And sometimes that can be like the difference between, between and. We have learned this like some railroad tracks or a fence that you go over that you just don't know, like you've just stepped onto federal property.

[Andrew Callahan]

You, you can't do that. Those are federal charges. That's a federal crime.

[Ryan McPherson]

You got to do your research.

[Andrew Callahan]

You guys mentioned train hopping a couple of different times. I know it's a pretty sensitive subject because the community doesn't like it being talked about. We're not going to mention the name of the document or anything like that. But as far as like, yeah, you know, fucking train people, they're like, they're, they're the, the most militant in the world.

[Ryan McPherson]

They really are.

[Andrew Callahan]

They don't like being discussed.

[Daniel Tanner]

They don't.

[Ryan McPherson]

But they. Yeah, but they sure love that the culture is still alive.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yes. And I don't know how it survives busking, I suppose.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah. But it's like. Yeah, again, like, like we just stay away from it. We're going to do our thing. We think that we've been riding trains for a very long time. You don't ever fucking see anyone else riding trains. There's no problem. It's not like everyone going to the steps, we're walking down, danced, and now everyone's doing it. You know, like it's so.

[Andrew Callahan]

You don't see hobos with stick and bindles talking about Vietnam.

[Ryan McPherson]

No.

[Andrew Callahan]

Complaining about migrants taking their jobs away.

[Ryan McPherson]

From deer and you.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

It's just, it's a very isolated, private thing.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. And isolating, but picturesque comparatively to hitchhiking, which is hyper social but visually grotesque.

[Daniel Tanner]

That's another thing. Yeah, maybe not every kid should train hot, but every kid should hitchhike at once.

[Andrew Callahan]

Oh yeah, that's the truth.

[Daniel Tanner]

Absolutely. It's one of the most profound ways to see the world from the human perspective.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Daniel Tanner]

And train hopping is the most profound way to see it from the physical landscape. It's just you're rarely by the road you go through. So like. Yeah, we went through Appalachia once. I can't.

[Andrew Callahan]

On a train.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah, like, like 50ft from deliverance level. Like shit, you know, like creeping through.

[Andrew Callahan]

The middle of the night, like Hatfield McCoy territory.

[Ryan McPherson]

Dude is like at his burn pile in the overalls and you're just on the train and you're like, he has no idea we're here. But it's like we were just saying about, you know, making sure you do your research and you plan above all things. If you're going to go do something like that, you need to make absolute sure that you're in like really good shape.

[Andrew Callahan]

We could be saving some kid's life right now, telling him to hitchhike before train hopping.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah, it's a good run up. Or just like have go find a Costco parking lot and chase your friend's car down, you know, and make sure you can catch the windowsill or something a few times.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. So you guys have talked a lot about, you know, lessons learned over the course of this career and you guys have done a couple different things that definitely made me like kind of see a full transition from the bum fights era into, until now, one of those being the house in Oakland. Something to do with you guys like actually building tents for homeless people.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah. So for years we were always using billboards as a canvas to, you know, we were altering them. Billboard liberation was, we'd get up there, we'd change the message. And then one of our homies, Pemex and Sugar Bombing and Nico from the Bay Area, they actually approached us with this concept to make a, to make a project that was. We were going to take the entire billboards down. So we would box, box cutter around the entire surface, liberate the entire billboard. And then we took them to a warehouse and used PVC and all kinds of different tools to create these like five foot tall tents. At the time, there was a homeless encampment under a bridge in Oakland and it was sort of based right beyond this off ramp. And cars would come off this off ramp on a green and they wouldn't slow down. And they were taking out homeless people all the time. And they just kept running into it them. And so they were in the process of relocating everybody. The cops were running them out. They were losing their tents. And so on Valentine's Day that year, we showed up with a U Haul and we had stolen I don't know how many billboards. And it was cool because we were able to pick like, you know, a Bud Light one that said something about being out in the cold or like one about like a Chase bank one.

[Daniel Tanner]

That says something about a home.

[Ryan McPherson]

And like the outsides of the home, outside of the little tents all had these like, messages on them that were liberated and billboard material. Billboard vinyl is incredibly wild, weatherproof. That was just, yeah, just a cool project. We put the blueprints online so people could build their own. Like did the whole how to. Did a Kickstarter for, you know, us to get out and collect more. And it was, yeah, super rewarding, for sure.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. And it seems like in these past couple years, you guys have attached yourselves to certain political movements that are definitely more popular amongst the youth, especially college age. I want to talk about the post October 7th response that you guys had. Obviously it's gone too far.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

And I feel like y' all have done some good work. Can you talk about that?

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah, I mean, it had gone too far before October 7th.

[Andrew Callahan]

Oh, yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

You know, and so, like, we were very historically and, and emotionally aware of that situation. And then in the wake of that, you know, you can set your watch to what the response was going to be. So I think we kind of had.

[Daniel Tanner]

To jump on it.

[Ryan McPherson]

And so, yeah, it was some time after that, maybe a month or two, there was a company that put billboards up all over the country. Most people have seen them. They're pink, they've got white text, you know, and they were just these very like heavy handed critiques, sort of like weaponizing anti Semitism with protests and things like that. And we did the same thing. We just cut them down, we just removed them. They would have been arguably the easiest billboards to alter because of their typography and the way they were set up. But it was another one of those moments where it's like we could do something bigger and more impactful. So we removed them completely. We cut them into 8 by 11 pieces. We stenciled Respect Existence or Expect Resistance on them. And we mailed those out as individual works of art for $50 a piece and raised $9,500 for the Palestinian Children's Relief Fund in a matter of 48 hours. And I don't know that there's a better definition of direct action than that.

[Andrew Callahan]

I like this talk about direct action, too, because there's this thing on the left, and I guess it's because I grew up in the inner city, but, like, it's the idea that the peaceful protest should be celebrated as, like, the prime example of, like, morally good resistance and that anything that extends to specifically property damage is bad optics and that we should be more concessionary and kind of meet in the middle with people who disagree with the cause. And you guys have never caved in the direct action message. Can you talk about why and particularly why you guys tend to advocate. I don't want to say. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you guys do, like, dead cops and stuff like that.

[Daniel Tanner]

We feel that, like, there's all sorts of property destruction all the time. Strip mining is property destruction. Gentrification is property destruction.

[Ryan McPherson]

A billboard in the forest is.

[Daniel Tanner]

Putting a billboard in the city is property destruction. You're colonizing the space in our heads. Yeah. And it's like, you know, underneath at all. Like, we've never liked cops because we grew up skateboarding and had direct interactions. It's nothing personal. It's an institution. A world where we need violence to get people to do what they want. That's not even a world where we're trying to do things in a positive construction. And anybody who tells you, like, I. I'll put it this way. I have a general response. We read a lot of theory. We try to. We're not the one world's smartest people. We don't pretend to be, but we do it because, again, it's another message to kids. You shouldn't let anybody tell you what you can't with what you can't do. It's like, if our dumb asses can read it. And so one of the dudes that was huge on the left that I think is misinterpreted is Mark Hughes, you know, and he's like, in the Frankfurt School. And it's like the jumble of that people say. But basically, what he said is so simple, so simple, an idiot like me can explain it. You have to start with a radical thought first. All right? To have a radical thought, you have to take all this for granted. There's no world. It's like everything we have. Money, debt. These are all decisions we made. Cops, racism, race as a concept. All decisions we made as people to create These constructs, there was a period before them. Go back to that perfect period and imagine what kind of world you would build if there's nothing else in there first. And that's a thought you gotta have. Sometimes people say, well, we need cops because crime. And it's like, okay, but what about before we had cops or crime? What about there was a time when we lived in caves, there was a time when we lived in villages where the way we did things are different. So I'm just trying to give you maybe the idea how to start that process.

[Andrew Callahan]

I guess the contrast to that is people always say that human nature is fundamentally negative and that even if you were to remove capital, you would still have evil as a concept that runs through people's brains or blood innately who would cause harm.

[Daniel Tanner]

Evil's a construct.

[Andrew Callahan]

You think people would be fundament, fundamentally good without capital.

[Daniel Tanner]

I mean, I'm an anarchist. That's the central. I think people, when we hold each other accountable, bring out the best in each other. And I think early society, there's books you can read, like go read David Graeber's Debt. It's a great book about money. It's a good starting point. But if you take the radical idea and then you take the world we live in, then you can maybe think of ways to push towards that. That's the idea, is to take. Instead of starting with the negative construction of the world that we're all critical of, you start with the world we'd like to live, live in. And then when you look at the world we live in today, you say, how can I get closer to these ideas? Like I saw Angela Davis when I was in my early 20s. Like the whole idea of abolishing the police sounded crazy to me then, but it was formative to listen and then read the book and be like, oh, this makes sense.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, I remember reading that too in college, being like, holy shit. We actually might not need at least the institution of beat and street policing. I think there's still a place for like advanced investigations, you know what I mean? Like where. When it comes to. Because she always says presidency is an absence. So you could still have detectives that are solving child sex crimes, but you don't have police that are ticketing people's cars, you don't have police that are patrolling so called high crime areas and meeting quotas to make money for the county slope.

[Daniel Tanner]

And then you have lock teams with machine guns serving warrants. And then you have a populace that feels like they need to be armed to protect themselves from that and just step to step to step to step. If you never question the underlying premise, then you never see a world in which you just take it all for granted that life has to be miserable, that the world can't be improved.

[Ryan McPherson]

Well, and the other thing too is there's many different forms of violence and they don't all need to require physical contact. Standing across from someone with military grade weaponry is enough psychological violence to inflict a response. And so what's happening right now is a perfect example. What we experienced last night is a perfect example. Trump has deployed all of these troops to Los Angeles. This police in Las Vegas are well armed when they, they come out to suppress these protests without even touching anybody. It's already a form of violence. And so it's difficult to ask people who are simply standing up for their communities and neighbors. The basis of this is we want to protect our communities. The basis of this is not we want to burn them down and break and burn electric cars. It starts with communal respect and protection. And when the response to that is the National Guard and mercenaries, Marines and shooting women point blank with rubber bullets, like, how can you expect for there not to be an escalation? And that's, that's sort of the built in irony. And it's also worth noting that it's clearly the point of, you know, this, it's what Trump wished he did in 2020 with George Floyd. He's finally getting a chance to do it. I really do think it's a practice run on la because come Saturday, watch, like there won't be a perfect day of protest across this country. There's a going to be some flare ups and watch his response to it. And so it's just, it's tough, it's tough to ask that of people. When you talk about, oh, the inherent evil, where it's like, look at how we classify certain groups that are trying to protect themselves. We classify them as terrorists. Look at how we classify peaceful protesters. We classify them as insurrectionists.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

You know, and so as soon as you start to get into that little word play, it's over.

[Daniel Tanner]

But then, yeah, on the left also as well, it's like this whole idea that we are just supposed to be handed it on a platter is crazy. Like there's been generations of activists, you know, we have family members, there have been people working for years. And changing the world is never an easy or a messy process. But I would walk across the entire country through a cloud of tear gas that big if that got us To a place where everybody, not just the people I agree with, but everybody, felt invested and everybody could believe in each other. That's the end goal. All the rest of this, it's punditry. The end goal is like an inclusive system where everybody feels invested. It would involve all of us to change. It would involve everybody to listen a little bit. It would involve us to be much more in tune with our environment. And if you're so sure that the other guys are the only ones who are like, doing anything bad, just remember every day, just look it up. Look up the amount of different rare metals in your phone. Just look it up. And look up where they mine those and what that process is and. And just know every time you get a new iPhone, like people are dying for that. You just don't see it. And the term identity politics, anybody can co op that. Gun ownership, that's a form of identity politics. There's a million. Anything can become a form of identity. Civil rights is about protecting anybody for being persecuted on the base of their identity. And one thing on the left is I think we should return to a point where we demand politicians give us actual civilization. Civil rights legislation that really protects people and not a black square on Instagram so that Lululemon can sell more leggings. It's like, you know, it's like they need to actually participate in protecting people legislatively. I think that's part of the reason that the left has really struggled to find a wind or any way to do anything politically is because they don't offer constructive. It's like we just did an art show out here and that's what we tried to do is for once, it's like, hey, we've got a platform in a place like this. We've got a pret. Pretty big platform. Here's all these organizations that you can support locally that are doing things. It's like, we're probably not going to take you up on a billboard. There's like, you know, things about that. It's like, how do I know you're not a cop? You know, it's like, for sure. But what we can do is point you in stuff that we think is way more gangster than what we do.

[Andrew Callahan]

What's the most gangster you can think of?

[Daniel Tanner]

What's the most gangster I could think of? I don't know. Out here. Go in the tunnels Shine the lights out here they'll take you down in the.

[Andrew Callahan]

Shout out to the homie from over there Shine a light's the real deal those guys don't fucking play around because they've been down there. You know what I mean?

[Daniel Tanner]

Absolutely.

[Andrew Callahan]

Like the people who work for Shine a Light. Like it's crazy that some of the realest interviews I ever do are with like non profit workers, specifically in the harm reduction sphere. I don't want, I want to take back non profit because there's an industrial complex thing there. We back up harm reduction employees and people who dedicate their time to that from Frisco to here. They're just the most real ones ever.

[Ryan McPherson]

Really quick too. I got a shout out sidewalk project. They're in Los Angeles. It's a group that we were involved with from the very beginning. Very dear friends of ours. Skid Row is their, their office and they're there every single day. And, and I've, I've never been more humbled to, you know, watch them both, you know, near and far put the work in they do in Skid Row. Anyone that's been down there knows.

[Andrew Callahan]

So somebody watching right now could volunteer to help.

[Ryan McPherson]

Absolutely. Volunteer. Yeah, go just hit them up. They're, they're insanely accessible every single day of the week. They're, you know, light years ahead of any organization we know in Los Angeles. Putting.

[Andrew Callahan]

Are they on San Pedro or.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah, so we did this speed activism date because our things or event because our things culture jamming. So it's like speed dating, except not dating at all. It was five different organizations locally and you sit down with them and then they gave you their elevator pitch. It's real quick. And then they were tabling outside so that you could get further information. Anyways, I don't have enough time here to do them all justice. A local publication, Devoid magazine, wrote an article. Someone went through the process, reviewed it, and it's mostly information about these five organizations. So if you're in Las Vegas and watching this, you should go to Devoid magazine. You should look that up. It should be posted soon and you can go and get the contact info to all five of these organizations. We believe in all them.

[Ryan McPherson]

And like we're obviously not a 5001 3C right? So like the entire basically how every single indecline project works is us waiting to sell art, sell tickets, T shirts, sell gloves, and then we go, oh sweet, we got 2,500 bucks in the bank. Let's go like make Bolsonaro's head and play soccer with it in Brazil. Let's, you know. So like, you know, we are, we are fully funded, every single penny. We all have jobs. We have multiple jobs.

[Daniel Tanner]

So Dirt bags. We're like, yeah, cheap date. We make a lot out of a little. Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

And we come from like guerilla everything, Art, filmmaking, you know, so, you know, you can give us 500 bucks and we'll make, we'll make something viral. But it's like that's the basis of us.

[Daniel Tanner]

So.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah, when you get on our site, like, if you want to support us. Yeah. Cop a T shirt or buy like we've, we've got a bunch of literature now which is like kind of the best thing you can buy because it just like gives you the whole rundown.

[Andrew Callahan]

Is it literature like similar to how crime Think was back in the day?

[Ryan McPherson]

Well, we have a. We have our 20 year anthology. We've got a book that's our newest one, which is all of our Billboard Liberations with essays from Ron English, John Law from the Billboard Liberation Front. Like crazy, the yes Men wrote an essay. Essay for it, that book. And then side Hustles, the one that we made after going to the South. So that's all the books. And then we have a book that's all of Aware's work as well.

[Daniel Tanner]

So those are personal essays of stories. So if you're a fan, you get some behind the scenes stories of stuff that people who were there telling stories about some of the wildest.

[Andrew Callahan]

How long would it take Aware to do those like insane boxcars?

[Daniel Tanner]

One night.

[Ryan McPherson]

One night.

[Daniel Tanner]

You have to do it in the night. Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

There was no going back.

[Andrew Callahan]

But I mean, how many hours. Hours is that night?

[Ryan McPherson]

Second the sun goes down.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

Right until morning.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, I would imagine it because some of those is just like Jesus Christ.

[Ryan McPherson]

Well, if you've met Aware, he's like seven humans, you know, I mean the guy with like.

[Andrew Callahan]

I met him one time, he was physically large. Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

So you have to realize like me painting an entire boxcar would take four nights.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

You know, and that's like without a lunch break.

[Daniel Tanner]

But Aware. Yeah, man.

[Ryan McPherson]

I mean you get him like a overpriced fucking protein bar and like some. And the funny thing is, like, he didn't.

[Daniel Tanner]

No one's stopping him while walking out of Whole Foods with the pocket full of protein bars.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, for sure.

[Ryan McPherson]

So no, like I spent many a night in train yards with him and it was like amazing what he could accomplish in a single night.

[Andrew Callahan]

Did he have a workout system at home?

[Ryan McPherson]

He had like a rock climbing wall at his house. Yeah, well, he had like a little like little man cave that he built. But the. He was big into jiu jitsu.

[Andrew Callahan]

Okay.

[Ryan McPherson]

That was his thing.

[Andrew Callahan]

You guys into that?

[Ryan McPherson]

Not so much. I fuck with, with the hot yoga.

[Andrew Callahan]

Okay.

[Ryan McPherson]

I like heavily with swimming and hot yoga. That's my, that's my. I. I talk so much on it for so long. I'm like, are they gonna make you like, roar like a lion? Like, what the is that? And then I. Yeah, like most things I got a little older, I did it and I realized that it was like the greatest workout ever. And. And for me, like, I boxed for a while out here and that was like, I needed that for therapeutic reasons. I don't give a what I look like. But at the end of the day, just felt nice to hit, you know? And now, now it's just with, with this kind of work and this kind of world we're living in, like having a couple hours out of the day that I can get a good workout in, but. And, but walk away from it. Feeling therapeutically recharged is super important.

[Andrew Callahan]

Do you guys have a dream spot or a dream piece that you're kind of incubating in the brain right now that you're down to talk about?

[Daniel Tanner]

I've got one I can't talk about. We've.

[Ryan McPherson]

Most of them, we can't talk.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

Because it's like they're. You just like you're. You're putting the blueprint out and giving people a head start on, like, so.

[Andrew Callahan]

You worried more so about biters than you are about, like, you.

[Ryan McPherson]

You don't want to tell someone the bank you're going to rob ahead of time.

[Daniel Tanner]

And plus it's like sometimes you want to do it and then see what the response is before you take credit for it. Because sometimes they drop some serious charges. So.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah, that's a really good point. There's pieces that we have not put our name on that we'll never put our name on. And it has nothing to do with cancellation. It has everything to do. Has everything to do with that next morning and just kind of waking up being like, oops.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. What state do you think is the toughest on the kind of work, you know, guys do legally?

[Ryan McPherson]

Las Vegas.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah, Las Vegas.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. Dude, what's up with the cops here?

[Ryan McPherson]

They're nuts, cuz in the tunnels.

[Andrew Callahan]

I remember they were like going in there giving people vagrancy citations.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah, they're just on one. And I mean, you got to remember we've been putting in work since 2000 out here, you know, so they hate you guys for. Hate us. We don't mince words when it comes to Them in any, any form.

[Andrew Callahan]

And you wouldn't do any kind of stencil campaign with Clark County Metro.

[Ryan McPherson]

I mean, I think you're just asking for it. Like, we've done enough. We. We had a. When we did, we had our art show here at Recycled Propaganda. We had a Las Vegas Metro, an actor dressed up like a cop in the. In the LV outfit out front, getting with and tagged on. It was a whole, like, performance art thing. And it was great, people.

[Andrew Callahan]

I mean, you did something similar to our show.

[Ryan McPherson]

Exactly. So we just did the same guy and he. You know, we had the Reservoir Dog setup going on.

[Andrew Callahan]

It was the same actor, same dude.

[Ryan McPherson]

Sat there for hours and just got rocked. Like, stickers on the face and spray painted. And like, a few days later, one of our homies got a voicemail that he sent us, and he was just like, hey, just letting you know, I got, like, homies at Clark county that, like, saw your little thing with the cop.

[Daniel Tanner]

Like, you're marked.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah, they're sensitive, but it's like, listen, you chose to be a cop. You know, you could have been a lot of things. Yeah, I thought about that last night. We were standing downtown. I was, like, looking at these guys, and I don't have any sympathy, but it definitely dawned on me that it's like, man, what is it like standing here and just, like, feeling that, like, vitriol, you know, like towards you, towards the job that you've been, like, told.

[Daniel Tanner]

To go out and do do?

[Ryan McPherson]

That is, like, so unnecessarily intense and ridiculous.

[Andrew Callahan]

I can't tell if they're indoctrinated or just severely dissociated.

[Ryan McPherson]

I think that the way that the police are trained now, they're trained like the military. So I think they're 100% indoctrinated.

[Daniel Tanner]

So you don't think there's PTSD involved? It's like everybody in that crowd on their side and on the other side, knew that tear gas was coming out that night.

[Ryan McPherson]

100 and it was just like, a matter of when.

[Daniel Tanner]

And everybody's waiting, and it's like they've got to get themselves riled up enough for someone to do it. That's just classic crowd psychology. It's like they're a crowd, too. It's not just that you're the crowd. There was a point where it's like, there's hundreds of people yelling at you. That's maybe a little scary, but, like.

[Ryan McPherson]

You definitely get the sense that they are waiting for the opportunity. The big thing today was they're supposed to announce when they call for dispersal. They're supposed to announce audibly.

[Andrew Callahan]

I thought that was standard.

[Ryan McPherson]

But they didn't do it.

[Daniel Tanner]

No, they didn't do any of that. They just started. Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

Well, I was laughing watching my friend get shot with paintballs, thinking like, oh, you know, this is not, like, here came the tear gas. And we all had the same thought, was like, oh, there was no heads up.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

And there was that moment where I was kind of watching them, like, assemble, thinking, like, oh, they might be getting ready to, like, call. Call it a night, like, squash the party. And yeah, they just sort of went for it. And so anyway, you just. You wonder where all this, like, angst and shit comes from. And you look at the history of, like, how far we've come with our relationship to police. There was a time, time where the cop in your neighborhood, you knew his name, he knew everybody. He lived in the neighborhood. That's a big distinction. Was like, Officer McKinley was your neighbor. He knew all of the other neighbors, and he was like, the homie. And now it's this whole, like, when people talk about, like, an invading force and an occupying force, like, how are we supposed to feel when, like, at the slightest, you know, sniff of like, a little bit of a protest or like, there being a 12 people coming.

[Daniel Tanner]

Out with some flags to run around.

[Ryan McPherson]

There's a SWAT tank or, you know, like military grade shit rolling down the street.

[Daniel Tanner]

The Militarization of police by. I think it's Robbie Balco.

[Ryan McPherson]

That's a great book.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yep. That's one. Get the History They Shoot an Awful.

[Ryan McPherson]

Lot of Dogs and the Honey Boo Boos Autobiography.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

So before we wrap this up, I got one more question for you guys. Man. If Hunter Biden was here with us in the room right now and you had one question to ask, what would it be?

[Ryan McPherson]

I got one. You go first.

[Daniel Tanner]

Is yours more funny or serious?

[Ryan McPherson]

Mine's funny.

[Daniel Tanner]

Okay, then you go first.

[Ryan McPherson]

If we can arrange for you to smoke crack with Bling Bling, would you.

[Andrew Callahan]

That was the funny one. I wanted to. I went with car.

[Ryan McPherson]

Okay, well, we can probably get.

[Daniel Tanner]

Ask him that.

[Andrew Callahan]

Okay. He's got about two months clean, so you might want to switch that. I have been clean and sober since June of 2019, and I have not.

[Ryan McPherson]

Touched a chopper of alcohol or drug.

[Andrew Callahan]

And I'm incredibly, incredibly proud of that.

[Daniel Tanner]

So that would have been. That'll be the first one, but. And you could ask because it's funny, but, like, the other one is just because it's Something you brought up maybe to ask him if he could speak directly to some of the pundits, you know, just like as a human, you know, because I don't actually think he's a pundit. I think he's a guy. Like, I don't see him out doing so just as a human. What he would. Would say, not on a television, but just if you could sit across from one of these people who has made so much money talking about him. And I'm not passing judgment in any direction, it's not a tacit endorsement, but just I think sometimes we forget that there's human beings, and maybe that helps personalize what he would say about the personal impact on his life beyond, like, stump speeches and his father's election and all this. It's just like a person, you know, what will you say to them?

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, like a. Like a pundit on Fox who's talked about him every day for an entire lecture.

[Daniel Tanner]

Just, what if they could just. No cameras, just in a room. No one's gonna hear it. It's not gonna get out. What would you say the only difference.

[Andrew Callahan]

Between crack cocaine and cocaine is sodium bcarbonate. Are you curious to see if he'd be, like, full of anger or would he be full of, like, would you take the high road or low road is kind of what you're getting at. Him, him, him and everybody, everybody around him.

[Daniel Tanner]

I just also want to know what he'd say. I mean, I guess how he says it would probably say a lot about him. I don't think a lot of people take the low road when you ask him a thoughtful question like that, you know, I imagine if I was to imagine him doing it, I bet you he'll sit there and stop and think for a second maybe I'm wrong. And then I bet what he says afterwards will probably be useful, no matter how you feel about it.

[Andrew Callahan]

I talked to him on Zoom yesterday and I asked him, what do you think about Tucker Carlson? And he said, he's the biggest pussy I ever met in my entire life. And he goes, when me and him, we're younger, we used to, you know, we were friends in Washington. He said we used to smoke weed and stay up until 4 o' clock in the morning. And, like, Tucker would always just say the lamest shit. You know what I mean? He'd be like, well, if aliens were real, how would they not have visited us? Just like, vibe killer shit. And then what he told me specifically is, after Tucker slandered Hunter Biden for, like, two different election cycles. He emailed Hunter asking if he'd write his kid a recommendation letter to Brown University.

[Ryan McPherson]

Get the fuck out of here. Of course he did.

[Andrew Callahan]

So there's a lot of, like. I feel like I'm really interested in that Washington social bureaucracy.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

It's just fascinating to me that there's like, dinner parties where Tucker Carlson smoking weed with Hunter Biden.

[Ryan McPherson]

It's just amazing to me too, like, the, The. The relationships, like you think about how we fuck with people and like, when someone does you wrong, like, I think, like, I don't know, like people come in and out of your life for less reasons or for. Or for like some pretty insignificant things sometimes. But like, when you look at Washington and you look at like the ring kissing and the ass kissing and like, the things that are done to people, like people have made careers out of slandering him on like, massive television networks and just like, for there to even be an open line of communication is insane to me.

[Andrew Callahan]

For sure. I mean, and just the fact that you perceive these people as being mortal enemies, but they're hanging out at dinner parties. They're part of the same sort of elite circle.

[Daniel Tanner]

They're LARPing.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. As enemies.

[Daniel Tanner]

We should all. That's what punditry is. They're just all larping. It's just. They are collecting your money to run exorbitant elections. How much. How much do you think we spend a year on elections?

[Ryan McPherson]

Like a trillion dollars more than is necessary.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Ryan McPherson]

Yeah. Exactly.

[Daniel Tanner]

Last thing, man. You do really great work.

[Andrew Callahan]

Thank you, bro.

[Daniel Tanner]

If anybody's already here, they already know that. But like, if you like, have a relationship, as seeing us as being like, of the same lineage before you, I couldn't tell you just from our perspective how proud how what you do takes the idea so much farther. You are, yeah. One of the best journalists, most inventive in the existence and. And have done a lot to like.

[Ryan McPherson]

We're insanely proud to know you and we obviously, like, we love you like a homie, but, like, can't tell you how like, inspired, you know, like, we are constantly to see your work, man.

[Andrew Callahan]

Appreciate that. My dogs.

[Ryan McPherson]

Absolutely.

[Andrew Callahan]

And it means a lot as a lifelong fan to get the opportunity to get the first real candid sit down that I've seen with you guys. I'm sure there's been others, but this feels like special to me because we've talked for a while, but I'm learning shit about you guys through this interview that I didn't even know.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

So shout out to dan decline. Channel 5. Hunter Biden, bling Bling crack session.

[Daniel Tanner]

Win maybe ask him, ask him in his heyday if he could have picked one celebrity to smoke crack with if it would have been Bling Bling. Don't ask him about crack.

[Andrew Callahan]

Well, I'm just going to ask him if he knows who Bling Bling is.

[Daniel Tanner]

Oh, yeah, there you go.

[Andrew Callahan]

Hunter told me in our primary zoom consultation he was doing crack every 15 minutes for two years.

[Daniel Tanner]

Oh, my God.

[Ryan McPherson]

He might know. I mean, Bling bling's like the Don Corleone of the crack game.

[Andrew Callahan]

And you know what? Last thing I'm going to say is, as Lil Booster the rapper said, we kind of wish we had more crackheads now. I mean, if you look at the how long Bling Bling has lived in active addiction with fentanyl. Impossible.

[Daniel Tanner]

Yeah, it's true. True. Yeah, that's a wild one.

[Andrew Callahan]

You know, I mean, he's. He's probably going to live into his 70s and 80s.

[Ryan McPherson]

Gwyneth Paltrow, if you're watching. That's the new move right there.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Daniel Tanner]

Get rid of the vagina eggs.

[Andrew Callahan]

Exactly. Channel 5 live worldwide Hollywood advice.

[Ryan McPherson]

The authority. Ken News, channel 55. We don't with custers and 5 is the best number.