The Dark Truth about US Copper Mining: 5CAST w/ Andrew Callaghan (#8) ft. Naelyn Pike

Summary

Summary of Podcast Episode: "The Dark Truth about US Copper Mining: 5CAST w/ Andrew Callaghan (#8) ft. Naelyn Pike"

Release Date: June 26, 2025
Host: Andrew Callaghan
Guest: Naelyn Pike
Podcast: 5CAST w/ Andrew Callaghan

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Introduction to Copper Demand and Its Implications [00:00 – 01:00]

Andrew Callaghan opens the episode by highlighting the escalating demand and price of copper, noting its essential role in renewable energy technologies. He emphasizes that "the demand as well as the price of copper is the highest it's ever been" (00:00). Callaghan underscores copper's recyclability and the social issues surrounding copper theft, citing examples like thieves stealing copper wires from construction sites.

The Oak Flat Dispute and Environmental Concerns [01:00 – 02:10]

The discussion shifts to Oak Flat, a sacred Apache site threatened by Resolution Copper's mining plans. Callaghan explains the historical context, referencing a reform bill passed during the Trump administration that opened previously protected national forests to logging (01:00). He criticizes the environmental and cultural ramifications, stating, “It would truly be a shame to deprive future generations of access to these sorts of sacred places” (01:00).

Political Influence and Environmental Policy [02:10 – 09:19]

Callaghan delves into the political maneuvers that have facilitated resource extraction on Native lands. He criticizes the Trump administration's policies that favor timber production and resource exploitation over conservation. Notably, he remarks, “The conservation of America's majestic landscapes... would be a shame to deprive future generations” (02:10). This section covers the reduction in budget and job cuts to Environmental Protection Boards, linking corporate influence to political decisions.

Positive News Segment: Greenville's Revitalization [09:19 – 14:29]

Amidst the serious discussions, Callaghan shares a positive story about Greenville, South Carolina. He praises the Greenville Drive's successful revitalization of the city without displacing existing communities. Callaghan states, “The stadium and associated businesses have brought in over $300 million in revenue” (09:19), highlighting responsible development that benefits the local economy.

Health Update: Declining Smoking Rates [14:29 – 25:09]

The podcast transitions to public health, discussing a study published in JAMA showing declining smoking rates in the US. Callaghan cites Dr. Matthew Stone, mentioning, “If current trends hold, national smoking prevalence is on track to dip below 5% by 2035” (14:29). This segment underscores the shift in public perception towards smoking and the rising preference for alternatives like vaping among younger populations.

Coverage of Leonard Peltier's Commutation [23:29 – 25:38]

A significant portion of the episode covers the commutation of Leonard Peltier's life sentence by President Joe Biden. Peltier, a prominent figure in the American Indian Movement, was released after nearly 50 years in prison for the alleged killing of two FBI agents. Callaghan reflects on Peltier's case, noting, “Leonard Peltier comes home. There’s a town that you enter... People today don’t understand the FBI of '73” (23:29).

Field Reporting: Oak Flat Protest [14:29 – 25:09]

Jake Frawa, the native affairs correspondent, provides on-site coverage of the Save Oak Flat prayer event. He captures the community's emotional and spiritual resistance against Resolution Copper's plans. Notable quotes include Nayland Pike's passionate appeal: “We have to protect every single draw. They can take our money, but our water is still our resource to squander or to protect” (14:44).

In-Depth Interview with Naelyn Pike [26:18 – 99:30]

The core of the episode features an extensive interview with Naelyn Pike, a member of the San Carlos Apache tribe and a leading figure in the Apache Stronghold resistance. Key topics discussed include:

• Reservation History and Identity: Pike shares the historical trauma of her people being forcibly relocated, emphasizing the loss of ancestral lands and the struggle to maintain cultural identity. She states, “When we were placed there, the cavalry knew it was only 40 acres of land where there was no food, no water” (26:25).

• Impact of Mining on Native Lands: Pike highlights the environmental and spiritual threats posed by Resolution Copper's mining operations at Oak Flat. She warns, “Oak Flat is a completely holy site where our religion is intact” (61:17).

• Health and Social Issues on Reservations: Addressing contemporary challenges, Pike discusses high rates of diabetes, substance abuse, and violence, attributing these to systemic neglect and the destructive influence of corporate exploitation. She remarks, “Sugar is really bad for you... Diabetes is like on its full-blown high rates” (85:22).

• Cultural Preservation and Language: Pike emphasizes the importance of preserving Apache language and spirituality, resisting assimilation pressures. She articulates, “We have to keep fighting for our language... It gives me a sense of pride and it gives me a sense of taking it back” (60:29).

• Resistance and Future Actions: Pike outlines the ongoing legal battles and communal efforts to halt the Oak Flat mine, encouraging collective action and resilience. She asserts, “Resolution Copper will not win” (93:07).

Additional News Segments [75:20 – 99:30]

The latter part of the episode includes various news updates and promotional segments:

• Privacy and Data Protection: An advertisement for Incogni, a privacy tool that helps individuals remove their personal data from data brokers, emphasizing the importance of protecting one's privacy in the digital age.

• C5Now Platform Launch: Promotion of Channel 5's new independent documentary platform, C5Now, highlighting its commitment to giving creators a larger share of residuals and supporting independent filmmaking.

• Violence and Safety Concerns: Pike shares personal experiences of threats and violence faced during protests, underscoring the dangers activists encounter in their fight to protect sacred lands.

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Concluding Remarks

Andrew Callaghan wraps up the episode by reinforcing the significance of the Oak Flat dispute as a symbol of broader indigenous struggles against resource exploitation and cultural erasure. The episode serves as both an exposé of the environmental and social costs of copper mining in the US and a platform for indigenous voices advocating for the preservation of sacred lands and cultural heritage.

Notable Quotes:

• Andrew Callaghan: "The true cost could be devastating." (00:36)

• Naelyn Pike: "We have to protect every single draw. They can take our money, but our water is still our resource to squander or to protect." (14:44)

• Andrew Callaghan: "Resolution Copper will not win." (93:07)

• Naelyn Pike: "Sugar is really bad for you... Diabetes is like on its full-blown high rates." (85:22)

• Nayland Pike: "Our ancestors are not... We've been fighting every generation since the settlers came." (84:26)

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This episode of 5CAST w/ Andrew Callaghan offers a poignant look into the intersection of environmental sustainability, indigenous rights, and corporate interests, urging listeners to recognize and support the ongoing battles faced by Native American communities in the United States.

Transcript

[Andrew Callahan]

So what do you know about copper? Some nonstick cookware? The OG Penny. Sure. But did you know the demand as well as the price of copper is the highest it's ever been? Your average Tesla is using almost three times the amount of copper compared to its gas fueled counterpart. And with the increasing push for renewable energy, building new solar farms, wind turbines, and even the chargers for your favorite electric vehicles would be impossible without more copper. Now, copper is also 100% recyclable. And we've all heard the stories of petty thieves robbing the nearest residential construction site for its copper wires and fix. Or like our friend Glenn from our coverage of the Vegas tunnels. What is this stuff?

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah, it's copper, right?

[Andrew Callahan]

It's low grade copper. Collecting discarded copper wiring from behind the various casinos in the Las Vegas strip and taking it to the nearest scrapyard for some cold hard cash. Do you feel happy with this amount? No. No, I'm not happy at all. But sometimes the true cost of acquiring this copper is a lot more than scouring the back alleys of casinos in the hot Nevada sun. The true cost could be devastating. And that takes us to Oak Flat.

[Nayland Pike]

For many Apaches, this land is holy. And that's what is about, is about survival.

[Andrew Callahan]

But soon, the area could be home to a massive copper mine that plunges more than a mile deep. Today we're going to talk about a Native American tribe and their struggle to save their land from being exploited by a transnational energy company. To tell this story properly, we gotta back up to earlier this year, the first week of April to be exact, when the Trump administration passed an emergency reform bill opening up 59% of previously protected national forests to logging. You know, chopping down trees to make coat racks and birdhouses. Trump's Agriculture Secretary issued an emergency order memo last week calling for the expansion of timber production by 25%. That memo says the United States has the abundance of timber resources that are more than adequate to meet our domestic timber production needs. As it currently stands, the US Is still the number one wood producing country on earth. But China isn't too far behind. And they've recently launched a forest plantation plan that allegedly would allow them to overtake us by 2050. Hence Trump's executive order, which opens up the previously protected forests to logging.

[Nayland Pike]

And therefore it's time to open up 15 of all national Forest Service lands.

[Andrew Callahan]

For logging, which sucks ass. John Muir once said that between two pine trees is a door leading to a new way of life. And if I wasn't scared of bears, I'd be at Yosemite right now. The conservation of America's majestic landscapes, especially in the west, is something I've been eternally grateful for. Especially thinking back on the RV days, living in the Valley of Fire State park in Nevada, hanging out with Bighorns and putting a plan together to start taking journalism seriously. If these tasteless, cash hungry developers had their way, that never would have happened and the entire American west would look like Henderson, Nevada, with Scottsdale style gift shops on every corner selling hollow memories of bygone frontier. But it would truly be a shame to deprive future generations of access to these sorts of sacred places under the lame justification of job creation or beating China in some kind of resource arms race. But here we are. With Trump's new order came not only a change in protected forest land designations, but also sweeping budget and job cuts to the Environmental Protection Boards, who are tasked with either approving or denying the construction of things like uranium mines or nuclear power plants on federal land. Of course, these budget cuts connect to the Doge and the newly estranged Elon Musk, AKA Kekius Maximus, the most powerful culture war victim in recent memory, whose solution to the very real nonprofit industrial complex issue was to fire teachers and baby formula testers, among other things. While Musk was unsuccessful in detangling the trillion dollar web of useless NGOs like Symposium, he was successful in re stigmatizing ketamine, a drug that's gone through a lot since Matthew Perry's pass. But back to Trump's reform bill. As usual, some of the federal lands that are immediately slated to be raised and extracted from are extremely close to Native American reservations, particularly in Arizona. I'm honestly a real nerd about land designations, so I don't want to bore you guys for too long, but here is a state map of Arizona with colors indicating what land belongs to who, split up in categories of ownership. And if you're listening to the audio only version of this podcast on Spotify or you're blind, I sincerely apologize and I'll attempt to be as descriptive as possible moving forward. So the color to focus on here, which indicates native land is orange. Every other color, including National Forest, Bureau of Land Management, National Park, National Wildlife Refuge and Military is all more or less owned by the same entity, the federal U.S. government. And because Arizona is mostly a Trump compliant red state, state park, county and state land Trust designations are kind of under the same umbrella. So you will notice there are five major clumps of orange colored Native American land in the upper northeast of Arizona is The largest reservation in the state, the Navajo Nation, home to its own language and 168,000 residents. In the southwest part of the state, you have the Havasupai and Hualapai Res, the indigenous inhabitants of the Grand Canyon, many of whom live an isolated and insular lifestyle, numbering about 1,600 residents. In the center, just south of Phoenix, you have the Gila River Indian community, who are about 15,000 strong. That tribe is much more integrated into cosmopolitan American life. And below them you have the Tejonaunam nation, numbering about 10,000 who live on both sides of the U.S. mexico border, but Mexico has given them no reservation. Last but not least are the Apache, who live an hour east of Phoenix in the San Carlos and Fort Apache reservations, which total over 3 million acres and will be the main focus of today's video. But before we get into all that, I just want to mention that the five tribes that I talked about, and I'm sure I'm missing others, have all been relentlessly targeted by energy corporations in the past decades, particularly in the nuclear energy sector. As many people in Arizona know, the Navajo and Havasupai lands are rich in uranium. And in our previous video called Havasupai Uranium Mine Protest, we covered a demonstration near the Grand Canyon that was held by a coalition called hall no who were attempting to stop the construction of uranium mine called Pinyon Plain Mine, which a billion dollar canad incorporation called Energy Fuels Incorporated was planning to build, not only in the previously protected Kaibab National Forest, but overtop a freshwater aquifer that provides the remote Havasupai tribe with all of its drinking water. Protesters and Havasupai tribal members were concerned, and reasonably so, that the underground infrastructure of the uranium mine would pierce their aquifer and then poison the drinking water, among other things. This concern is not just out of nowhere. It stems from the lived experience of the nearby larger Navajo or Dine Nation, which is the largest tribe in the state. As I mentioned, encompassing the Four Corners region, where reckless uranium mining by energy corporations between 1944 and 1980 poisoned an entire generation. Today, 85% of the people on the Navajo reservation reside in uranium contaminated homes and have a rate of cancer twice the national average. And for those who worked in the uranium mines themselves at one point had benefited from these jobs, the cancer rate is 27 times the national average. Even as tribal leaders have taken great measures to clear nuclear waste buildup from the toxic sites where these uranium mines once were noticed, I said, was the silver lining in this horrific situation. Was that increased awareness about the adverse health effects of mining led to increased tribal resistance among the Navajo, who are now aggressively blocking any and all corporations from extracting any uranium anywhere in their land. Other tribes, however, haven't been so lucky. Which brings us to the current and very much ongoing situation we're going to be discussing today regarding the future health, religious rights and well being of the Apache people who call the San Carlos reservation home. So their main spiritual site and the location of one of their freshwater aquifers called Oak Flat is currently under siege not by Energy Fuels Incorporated, but a different company called Resolution Copper, who are based in Australia, yet with majority American shareholders are attempting to extract around 1.6 billion tons of copper from the sacred Apache location. While as I mentioned, we are winning and logging here in the US we are currently being shit on copper wise by Chile, Peru, China and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. But this discovery of copper at Oak Flat is the largest copper deposit discovery in American history. So the Trump administration appears dead set on making sure this mine is built to reduce our reliance on foreign imports and return American manufacturing jobs to the homeland. Even if it means violating tribal land rights and repealing environmental protections to do it. Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Andrew Callahan and you're watching Five Cast, a bi weekly broadcast here at Channel 5, the largest crowdfunded newsroom on Earth. If you're watching this on YouTube, I want to let you guys know that the broadcast is also available on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon and a few other platforms. So if you want to head over and give us a nice review, view a listen, whatever, just type in 5cast in all caps. And you should see this pretty little logo. It's like five Cast logo with a bunch of trees in the fall behind it. That's ours. So in this episode, as I mentioned, we're going to cover the Oak Flat dispute and also send our native Spotlight correspondent Jake Frawa into the field to check the temperature at an IRL Oak Flat demonstration near the proposed site. And after that, we're going to sit down right here in this very studio with Nayland pike, who is a member of the San Carlos tribe and the leading figure in the Apache stronghold resistance. She's going to dive in and give us a candid look of where things stand today and the future of the fight moving forward. But first, I want to share some positive news stories because Lord knows we need it. So if you know me, you know that I love minor league baseball. In fact, I recently threw the first pitch at the El Paso Chihuahuas game, which was the best experience of my entire life. How fast do you think that was? Easy.

[Jake Frawa]

72.

[Andrew Callahan]

Really easy. 72 miles per hour.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

Well, in positive news today, it appears the mid sized southeastern city of Greenville or Granville, South Carolina has been revitalized. And by that I don't mean like in Seattle, when Uncle Ike's was built on 23rd Union to make way for the erasure of Seattle's black community in favor of a sanitized Ikea looking neighborhood to house SU students. I mean legit positive change without displacement. And that's because of the Greenville Drive, a minor league affiliate of the Boston Red Sox, who play at Flower Field, a stunning ballpark that was built upon the decrepit skeleton of a stinky lumber yard 20 years ago. Since then, the stadium and associated businesses have brought in over $300 million in revenue. And that's thanks to a man named Craig Brown, who funded its construction in 2006 out of simply goodwill, because he saw a future in G town. So I'm really happy for you guys over there in Greenville, South Carolina. And I wish nothing but prosperity and fun times in the future. I actually just left Charleston, deep in the southeast of the state, where I'm working on a documentary about the Gullah Geechee dialect language and the psychotic schemes of developers at Hilton Head Island. It's gonna come out soon. Don't wanna say too much, but next time I do go back to South Carolina, might be kind of refreshing to get a nice change of PA up country, if you know what I'm saying. Our next story is about something that not long ago felt damn near impossible. The death of the American cigarette. Or at least the slow smoky crawl toward its funeral. According to a massive new study published in JAMA which tracked 1.77 million people over the past 30 years between 1992 and 2022, smoking rates are dropping across the board in the US especially among young people who seem to have collectively decided that smelling like an ashtray and slowly suffocating isn't worth the look. Even if Ma DeMarco's smoking a rollie lead researcher, Dr. Matthew Stone at UC San Diego broke it down like this. If current trends hold, national smoking prevalence is on track to dip below 5% by 2035. That's in 10 years. Which is kind of like saying that lung cancer and Marlboro billboards might one day both be artifacts in some washed UP Museum in D.C. now, if you're thinking this is some kind of coastal elite research surprise, while already low smoking states like California, Utah, Hawaii and Colorado are leading the charge and are expected to be well under the 5 mark by 2035. It's actually the high smoking states that saw the biggest drops. That said, the over 50 crowd is still holding on a little tighter to that cigarette. Maybe because they're nostalgic, maybe because old habits die hard, or maybe because they're still chasing the ghost of Joe Camel in a leather jacket. But the youth? They're out. Not interested. Cigarettes are for boomers and villains in black and white movies. It's all about vaping now. So shout out to Gen Z for choosing Popcorn Lung over lung cancer and shout out to Dr. Stone and the data nerds who gave us the hard evidence that we might actually outlive the Mar Marlboro man in due time. Smoke him if you got him. But it looks like fewer and fewer people do. All right, that's all folks. As I mentioned, we're gonna have our infield segment today hosted by our native affairs correspondent, Jake Fragua. Jake Fragua, who went to attend an Apache led protest at Oak Flat, right smack dab where Resolution Copper is trying to mine. So I want to show you guys that. But first, a word from our sponsor. What's up people? Let's take a quick break here to see how the media has been covering the ongoing Oak Flat land dispute. As we know, different outlets push different agendas, shaping the story to fe their own narratives, which is why independent reporting matters. And we here at Channel 5 are 100% committed to bringing y' all raw, unfiltered coverage straight from the streets. But before we hit the streets, we get informed using what, you might ask, Ground News. Ground News is a dope ass news aggregate that lets you see exactly how different media outlets, left, right and center are covering the same story as it unfolds. Here you can see using the Ground News bias distribution tool, how the left and right are covering a judge temporarily halting plans to transfer the Oak Flat land to the copper mine company. The left leaning Truth out headline reading Trump's race for green energy resources is not about climate, it's about greed. While the right leaning Herald Review headline reads, in Southern Arizona community opposition to mining grows in towns that once depended on the industry. You see what they did there? Curating the facts and selectively explaining things in a certain way to fit their own narrative. Total bullshit. Ground News Another thing that I love about Ground News is how it helps you figure out what's genuinely newsworthy by showing you how many sources numerically are Covering a story, that kind of transparency helps you CL if an article is legit, or in this case an Oak Flat lets you see just how under reported certain issues are. Another feature that I love to use at Ground News, the blind spot tool which shows you the stories that might not be appearing in your typical media bubble. And that's why we trust Ground News to help us cut straight through the noise. And right now you can subscribe for 40% off their unlimited access vantage plan, bringing the cost down to less than five bucks a month. Just scan the QR code here or click the link below in the pinned comment or the description to sign up. Supporting Ground News means helping to support us, which means we can keep making videos like this, giving you guys coverage that isn't watered down or dictated by corporate interests. So check it out, stay informed and most importantly, don't let the media tell you what to think. All right, Back to the studio or the streets.

[Jake Frawa]

Hello everyone. Jake Frawa here reporting for Channel 5 News. This issue that we're bringing to you today is very layered, very complex issue. There's a lot of stakeholders, tribes and non tribal members alike.

[Andrew Callahan]

There's a lot of untruth that this.

[Nayland Pike]

The mining company has kicked out there to all of us, continuing lie after lie after lie.

[Jake Frawa]

And we're here to bring you the issue from the people on the ground.

[Nayland Pike]

So today I am here for the Save Oak Flats prayer. This is kind of like a spiritual, religious gathering of superior people that support the Save Oak Flat movement. And we're all convening here where a lot of people know this place as a place where we sit in protest, where we sit in prayer and where we bring community members. We could lose all of this. Yeah, okay, so this was a mining town. We did that already. We gave and we gave and we gave. It's time to let the land rest or else we are going to lose everything that makes this place special, that makes this place sacred. This is my hometown.

[Glenn]

I'm fighting to save it, you know.

[Nayland Pike]

Against worldly corporations that does not have a good reputation, you know, and all the destruction that they've done throughout the world with their mining, they just haven't been transparent like they say.

[Andrew Callahan]

They have.

[Nayland Pike]

Our mayor, our council, it's like they're all in cahoots, they're all gong for it. And what we need to let them know is that they are not speaking for all the people in Superior, for the majority actually. So Resolution Copper has been here for decades. And, and in that fight, what happened is Midnight rider with John McCain in 2014 slipped in a bill called the National Defense Authorization act. And in that transfers over the land of Oak Flat to resolution Copper. And the United States government is allowing a foreign mining company to yet come inside US territory and take away natural resources and sell it.

[Jake Frawa]

It's all about the water because that's what sustains our life and it has for thousands of years here in the desert. It's important that we protect every single draw. They reference agriculture, industry as the lettuce bowl of the world. We produce so much lettuce and so much leafy green. And these are not, you know, this isn't alfalfa. This is stuff that people eat. And so the tension exists because when they use that water for mining, it becomes contaminated. You know, these corporations that want to use this water or are planning to use this water, they know that they're going to contaminate it when it comes out. This is what we're going to do with it. This is how we're going to treat it, you know, after we've treated it that we're going to stamp on there and it means that you can use this water and says who? And so of course we're going to be upset because we know no matter how clean they say it is or what their stamp of approval means, that one way or another that water is going to make it to our lands.

[Glenn]

It's sad to say that this destruction is going to be going off and like we don't even want it. You know, Apaches don't want this here. I'm really thankful for this little cup of water and you know, for them this, this water means nothing to them. I think once it's contaminated, you know, I think it's forever that like how do you undecaminate that when it's so much chemical is already built up in that. What is that water good for then? Because they're going to be distracted, all that water and for what, you know, a small portion of copper.

[Nayland Pike]

We are in a situation where things are dire and this is 2025. Why are we still following old tactics for progression? And that's that idea of, you know, going green. But in order to go green you have to extract lithium, you have to extract copper. And in so many ways that's still backwards but what we're up against is a multi billion dollar company.

[Jake Frawa]

So it just goes back to the old capitalist supply and demand scen where hey, I have water. You need water for your mine and is it worth it for me and my community to transfer, sell, you know, exchange that water for money, for monetary. It plays into the whole economy of Arizona because they call it the Copper State. Right. And so, hey, we're using the water to, you know, encourage the namesake of our state to uphold this whole idea that, you know, this. The Copper State means that we have to take every drip of copper. And, you know, I don't think that's what it means, but that's what they're exchanging it for granted.

[Glenn]

Going back to that reminds me and makes me think of like an elder who told us back in the day that when Apaches did see copper, that they would just leave it in the earth because they knew it wasn't for them. It has to take someone who's a foreign mine company to come and distract that from a sacred place.

[Jake Frawa]

Do you have any insight into how much or what's been polluted or what is the state of the aquifer?

[Glenn]

Yeah, if you make your way way up a little bit more, I guess south of the holy ground is a spring there. Southeast, and it's called Nijoni Butterfly Spring. And that was a spring where the girls would wash their clay, you know, after a sunrise ceremony, because within 24 hours, the girls have to wash that. So the godmother goes, and a certain amount, her family goes. And reading, you know, this article of the last previous sunrise dance there being that there was no water, it seemed like every time we would go there, it would be filled with water. And then over the 10 years, it just started dropping to, like, no water, you know, barely flowing through there. And that was physically seeing that was very sad because there's turtles that were in there. And I remember specifically one time, you know, just singing our songs facing the east. We were praying for that water before they started distracting because we saw the drill rig, you know, of them moving that from area to area. And, of course, that brought a lot of anger into us. But what did we do? We just stood there to the east and we prayed. And a little turtle. I remember a little turtle stuck its head out and looked right at us so calmingly, and it went back under, you know, like a. Like, thank you, you know, because that's. It's. Again, it's home. But that water, just seeing that level of it visually go down and down and then was very sadden to the heart, to your spirit. And then also the acorn trees there, like I said, the medicine plants there, the plants that feed us right now, all these lies that they're being told, we have to lean upon Our spirit in ourselves. Because there's so much destruction, the fight has never ended.

[Nayland Pike]

That the indigenous people of this country continue to fight every day for our language, for our culture, for our plants, for our traditions, for our holy sites, and for our religion. How can you make a group of people survive and thrive in a system that was meant to break, break them? But we still survived because we had the land. These lands were still here. We still knew in our heart and in our mind that we could come back some way, somehow. But when it's gone forever, what happens? This is another step closer to taking what is left, what we fought so hard for as indigenous people. And that's why the weight feels heavy.

[Glenn]

It's going to be, you know, destructive and horrible. Just seeing it in a format of a 3D mat of people, you know, showing Eiffel Tower will fit in this crater in the earth, a place where I've, like, slept and occupied. To know that that is going to be open crater, what good is that going to be? What's at risk here? You know, just a little small portion of copper? Or is it who we are? And for me, it's our identity that we have to fight for.

[Nayland Pike]

What happens is our identity, our spiritual ties to these lands are ripped away. And how do you make that person move forward, move on? You can't mitigate that.

[Jake Frawa]

It's the equivalent of it being in our bank. You know, if the resource, these precious metals and resources are in the mountains. I look at it to me personally, like, hey, it's in our bank. You know, that's our bank account, our tribe, you know, just to shift it to the. To the, you know, the capitalist perspective. They'll understand that, right? They understand that we have it in our bank. So what gives them the right to go and raid if the courts don't want to stop it? Because, you know, they're already figured out a way to prove it and, you know, make it look like they gave us, you know, due process, then that's on them. But that water is still our resource to squander or to protect. And so if you come from these communities, stand up for that water and don't let your leaders transfer it because the money's not worth it.

[Andrew Callahan]

All right, man, shout out to Jake for that amazing coverage. I'd also like to mention that we just sent Jake to a different reservation this time, the Turtle Mountain Res in North Dakota to speak with the recently freed Leonard Peltier, who was convicted of the double homicide of two FBI agents in the 1970s. While he was the leading figure of an organization called the American Indian Movement, AKA aim, which was kind of like the indigenous answer to the Black Panthers. Because of some of the discrepancies in the government's case, Peltier is considered by his supporters to be the longest held political prisoner in U.S. history. And former President Biden commuted his life sentence 20 minutes before he got out of office. So here's a preview of that. Today is a victorious day as a.

[Nayland Pike]

Relative is here in the flesh.

[Andrew Callahan]

President Joe Biden commuted the life sentence of Leonard Peltier. The 79 year old has served nearly 50 years in prison after being convicted for the 1975 killing of two FBI agents.

[Jake Frawa]

A young man who's spending his life in prison for something he almost certainly did not do.

[Andrew Callahan]

Leonard Peltier and others killed Williams and Collier in cold blood on the reservation because they happened to be there at the wrong place at the wrong time. He's considered by a lot of people.

[Nayland Pike]

To be America's longest serving political prisoner.

[Jake Frawa]

People today don't understand the FBI of 73. They went after Martin Luther King. It is in that context that Peltier was going after. The Peltier group, who could have just.

[Andrew Callahan]

Driven away, came to the agents cars, Williams and Collier, and killed them both at point blank. I think I speak for all FBI agents. It's a kick out the balls.

[Jake Frawa]

That's.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Jake Frawa]

I know in my heart I never killed nobody. Howdy there. Jake Frollo Here with the C5 crew in beautiful Belcourt, North Dakota, homelands of the Turtle Mountain band of Chippewa Indians. Right now, we're standing at the entrance to the casino here, and they're hosting an amazing event to honor the longest held political prisoner in the United States, Leonard Peltier. So let's check it out.

[Andrew Callahan]

My spirit name is one who carries a light. Turtle Mountain, born and raised. Just here to celebrate Leonard Peltier coming home. There's a town that you enter before you come to, the Turtle Mountains. We got word that there was all sorts of community members who stood out on the side of the road. Children, elders, probably 20 below, maybe even colder with the wind. And they're out there fist high, cheering on Leonard. And it was a powerful moment seeing him walk in there, them printing shirts of his food, the drums, community fam.

[Glenn]

You know, we're in this together. And unity. Just goes to show you right now what we're doing with Leonard. Beautiful people gathering together, you know, singing out war cries or whatever. It's really beautiful.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, I'm still shocked, you know what I'm saying? When I saw him get off that plane with him, I'm like, oh, my God. To bring home somebody after that amount of time. Mandela, who did 27 years in a South African prison, then he came home and became president of South Africa. I think this is bigger. So I'm just excited to see what they do next. Man, it's only up from here.

[Jake Frawa]

If you could describe today in one.

[Andrew Callahan]

Word, what word would that be coming today? If you'd like to see our full documentary, Leonard Peltier Comes Home, head to our [e-mail] Channel 5. As many of you guys know, we are a totally independent, almost 99% crowdfunded news operation. And it's your support on Patreon, which is about $5.55 a month, that keeps this whole train rolling. And it's just. It's how we can stay independent and not sell out. It's because of you guys. So thank you. All right, now for the main interview of today's podcast. As I mentioned, with the prominent activist San Carlos tribal member and leading figure in the Apache stronghold. Ms. Nayla. Here it is.

[Nayland Pike]

My name is Nalin Pike. I am a member of the San Carlos Apache tribe, but my descendancy goes back to being Chiricahua Apache.

[Andrew Callahan]

What can you tell us about growing up out there?

[Nayland Pike]

Living on the reservation has been a part of me. I think that when you look at R.O. reservation or a location that native people are placed, you kind of have this idea like, oh, that's their ancestral homeland. Like, for some, like the Ferdinand, the Navajo people, they live amongst their four sacred members. And so that's where they come from. But what makes our reservation unique is that it's actually not our ancestral homeland. So in our history, it was called Hell's 40 Acres by the calvary. And it was at the bottom of the bowl of the mesa was our people. And we were forced there as prisoners of war. And not just Apache people, but different bands of Apache people. We had Mohaves there, Yaqui and Yavapai, so other tribes. And when we were placed there, the cavalry knew it was only 40 acres of land where there was no food, no water, and it made us for on the government's rations. And so anyone who would try to escape, they were killed at gunpoint because at the top of the mesas were the cavalry posts. For me, when I think about living on the reservation, I think of me being a prisoner of war with that lingering story, that lingering history of our people. And now it's actually a lake, a man made lake where we were first put, which forced us to move higher up where we live now in the four districts of San Carlos. And so my ancestral homelands are places like Oak Flat, Mount Graham, the Chiricahuas. Our territory expense, you know, a vast amount of lands that cross states. To me, when I think about living in St Carlos, I think about what we face as indigenous people and also just trying to keep that resiliency of our identity alive and mold into what I know my ancestors wanted me to carry on. Even when we live on a reservation that says you can't, but you still have these invisible shackles of a history that impacts our people today, whether that's through social distraught, diabetes and mental illnesses that we face amongst our community. But at the end of the day we've made it our home.

[Andrew Callahan]

It's interesting that you mentioned that your people are close to the ancestral homelands but not quite there. But you mentioned the Dine are pretty much where they've always been. And obviously most of the tribes that are in Oklahoma today were moved from elsewhere in the country. Do you think that that relocation affects the psychology from tribe to tribe?

[Nayland Pike]

Definitely. I think that, you know, when we look at Oklahoma, it's an Indian state and like for some you'll see like there's a Southern Cheyenne and they live in Oklahoma and then there's a Northern Cheyenne and in their history and they live in Montana next to Billings. And when you hear their story is that they were forced, you know, away from their homelands, but a group of them wanted to fight and wanted to go back home. And so what happened is when they were in one of their forts in their barracks, they escaped and they, that group ran and fought for their lives and fought and were being chased by the calvary at that time. But when they made it home, the United States government, I don't know if they felt bad or if there was this treaty that they made and some of those that made it back to Montana now live and they're the Northern Cheyenne and they're federally recognized. So it's crazy to see that you have the Northern Cheyenne and the Southern Cheyenne. They're one group of people, but because of that history, they're separated as federally recognized tribes. And so for me being sick Carlos Apache, and that's why I say I identify as Chiricahua, because if I say I'm San Carlos Apache, then I'm allowing the United States government to assimilate me and to make Me forget my true identity as a Native woman, as an Apache woman. Even beyond that, we have clanships. And that for my clan is the Sanaya. You have this idea in the United States that generalize our people, right? Just Native American. You're romanticized, you're sexualized, objectified. But then what happens? And for me, when I see that, like I want to deny that. And so there's this like internal struggle we face as individuals because not only are you under the constraints of the United States government trying to assimilate you trying to continue acts of genocide that we face today, you're also having to fight your own people because you have those who have taken in missionaries who are now Christian. And you have this rift, right, this divide and conquer tactic that we see every day on the reservation. We have to depend on government funding in order to survive. You get this idea where casinos, right? Okay. If you have a casino depending on certain states and certain treaties amongst tribes in the United States, you know, it's like there's some tribes who live off of the casino and are able to get per cap and then there's some tribes who are rural and where they live. Like for me, I remember when I went to school in the valley and I was a kid and they were like, oh, you're a per cap Indian? And I was like, what is that? And then I had to come home and ask my mom, what's a per cap Indian? And it was because they received per cap because they made enough money off of the casinos. However, for my people, we don't. And but what happens is that you see different tribes across this country who have different issues, right? Because they're also having to give into assimilation and into living into this fast paced world, but also hold your traditional and ancient ways. And how do you live between those two worlds? How do you be flexible and adapt? And so that causes a lot of depression, anxiety, substances, abuse on top of the rations that we get from food distribution, which is a government agency that where our people who are under the poverty line have to wait in line every month to get their food. And that's usually food, that's flour, sugar, potatoes, you know, and that increases high rates of heart disease and diabetes. And so this is like today, you know, all of this. And so I think for many people, they don't understand that it's a struggle to, to exist in this modern world as native people.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. One thing you mentioned is kind of the struggle against the forces of modernization is difficult because you're relying on modern services to meet basic needs like food and shelter. Do you feel like the Bureau of Indian affairs gives preferential treatment to different tribes when it comes to funding?

[Nayland Pike]

I think so, in some ways, because what happens is that the bia, depending on different states, they have different treaties amongst different tribes. And so when it comes to the Bureau of Indian affairs, you have to see that the tribes together are also trying to meet for federal funding and trying to get federal funding for all different sorts of things, whether it's the police and law enforcement or for, you know, wellness and health. There's all these things that we rely on. And so then what happens is those that do not get the federal funding or those that don't get assisted by the BIA or helped, whether if it's because of political contributions that tribes make. Being Native American is a political status. It's not a race. When it comes to our tribal identification that we have as certification of Indian blood, it's a number. And in that, it also is a reminder that, okay, you may have your driver's license and that's it. But for us, we have to carry our prisoner of war card. Yes. We are counted as Native people to see how many still live. And so when all that, it comes to population, and then also governments, tribal governments, have to make their own contributions to politicians that will also go in and lobby. So you see this political game at hand when it comes to Native people and the federal government.

[Andrew Callahan]

And you still live out on the reservation.

[Nayland Pike]

Yes.

[Andrew Callahan]

Have you ever thought about moving to a major city?

[Nayland Pike]

Part of my life, I lived in the Phoenix area in Mesa. And it was interesting because when I lived on the reservation in high school, it was completely different from when I lived in the Valley. I remember one time when I was in school, I was in kindergarten. And when you're intermixed, Native people are like, not. You're not a lot. And so I remember they're like, okay, Pilgrims and Indians. And this is like, in elementary school. And I was. They already picked me. I didn't get a choice to be a pilgrim or Indian. Like, you're an Indian. And I was like, what? Okay. And I remember telling my mom, and then we were painting, you know, the flag, and my mom had to be like, do you know what that means? Do you know what that represents? And to us and to our family, what we teach our children is that each stripe represents a colony, Right? The thirteen colonies. In order for those colonies to be here, they had to murder our people. Those stars that are on there, in order to have those 50 stars, our people had to be placed as prisoners of war. So when we look at that and when we stand for the flag, whether it's through the pledge of allegiance or anything like that national anthem, she always told me, you can choose not to do it. And so in those schools in the valley, and I would fight and argue with the teacher and explain to them and I'm like this little like crazy res kid arguing with the teacher and it's like, yeah, you know, I have to keep fighting for that and making people learn and understand. And so having to live in the valley and living in that fast paced life taught me to be proud of who I am and to hold my head up high. But interesting. When I moved back home to the reservation and I was in high school school, I remember walking around my own peers who were the same color as me, came from the same res as me and you know, most of us were like family or know each other and I could see them walking with their head down and I was like, why are we walking with their head down? Like, where's this pride? Where's this? You know, there was just, the energy was just so low. The school that I went to was a border town school. And it was so when we were there and I could see like just all of my peers who came from San Carlos were sat and then I realized that the racism on the brown, the boarding town and all of that really hurt our people and even hurt the young ones and my own peers at that time. And so it was just a huge difference being able to see, you know, what it's like to struggle living in the valley, in the city, and then what it's like to, you know, being at St. Carlos and going to a border town school.

[Andrew Callahan]

So even with the drawbacks of resources living on the reservation, you prefer that to the spiritually parasitic nature of the Phoenix Valley.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah, because it's the concrete jungle, especially Phoenix.

[Andrew Callahan]

As somebody who's lived in multiple major US Cities, Phoenix has got to be the worst for the spirit. I don't know if it's the architecture, the time in the car, just the temperature. And this is no hate to Phoenix, but when you're there, like, I just imagine if I wasn't from a major city and my first place was Gilbert or Mesa, I'd be like, oh, I'm gonna go live in the wilderness for the rest of my life.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah, I mean, like every weekend we would go back to San Carlos when we lived in the valley and I remember seeing Winnie like a superior. There's those canyons. And I remember once I get through those canyons, I'm back home. And so that was like our marker. And then when I look back at that moment, I realized, like, in Apache history that, like, those canyons were a marker of we're entering into, back into Apache territory. So I was like, oh, I question that. Like, does is that my, you know, do I resonate with that? Because that was a part of my history and I just didn't know, you know, But I definitely, I agree with you. The concrete jungle in the valley and just the way it is, it's definitely hard to survive.

[Andrew Callahan]

So, moving to Oak Flat, we sent a correspondent to cover the prayer run and some of the action that was happening around San Carlos and Oak Flat about a month ago. What has changed since then and what is the current status?

[Nayland Pike]

Okay, so when we did our run, we were running to do an emergency injunction with the federal district court in Phoenix. We were there to stop it because what happened is through Trump's, you know, wanting to exploit natural resources and be demonstrated, he pushed for copper. And copper is on the critical mineral list right now. And that included Resolution Copper. And Resolution Copper was supposed to have a final eis and that's the final environmental Impact Statement. And there was a 60 day notice for that to be finalized. And so when we had found out that that was pushed out, we did the emergency injunction and went to the district court and did a prayer run from Oak Flat. And in that journey, two days after our hearing, we got good news that the federal court, through Judge Logan, granted our emergency injunction. However, a couple weeks after the Supreme Court denied our case for the preliminary injunction. And so the current status is that Oak Flat is set to be finalized and transferred over to resolution copy on June 16th. And so it was a good victory. And then it just completely 180 with the Supreme Court and what they want them not granting to hear our case.

[Andrew Callahan]

So it's probably going to happen.

[Nayland Pike]

Yes. If on June 16th. But right now, what happened yesterday is that Win Cenosi, the founder of the Apache stronghold, is going to repeal the Supreme Court and see if we can get it reheard.

[Andrew Callahan]

So the motivation for having Oak Flat be a place for Resolution Copper to mine. It's mining, right?

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

Is to produce more copper domestically so we can take power away from our adversaries, China, other places that are politically against us.

[Nayland Pike]

Yes. And so what happened is, so Oak Flat, the Oak Flat mining project is going to be the largest copper mine in North America. And for years, this fight has been for over 30 years. And it was on standalone bills. And so Resolution Copper would put it through the Southeastern land exchange. And When I was 13, I testified against it in front of Congress. And that was Bill S339. And when it would never go through, it would never hit the House, would never, you know, pass it. The Senate would never pass it. Each time they put a bill in that was standalone. But what happened was in 2014, through John McCain and the Midnight Riders, slipped into the National Defense Authorization act and the ndaa. What that does is fund our military. So it's one of those must pass bills. And so President Obama at that time signed that. And that's what caused to where we're at today to us to get that taken back and so that we could continue to protect Oak Flat. But in that whole momentum, that's most of my life because in 2014 I was only 14, 15, and now I'm 25 and. And we're still here with the Supreme Court. What it has taught me is our own resiliency in these current fights and having to stay strong to protect the Mother Earth.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, Last time I covered something like this, we went to a protest around the Havasupai tribe, which was, you know, in the base of the Grand Canyon. And they were protesting a uranium mine that was supposed to be built by a company called Energy Fuels Incorporated, that was a Canadian. Canadian energy corporation. And one of the things that was confusing to them is President Biden had promised to protect their ancestral homelands from resource extraction in the. Then went back almost immediately. But if you do some research, you see that there was actually. The government was actually subsidizing the production and extraction of these resources. So oftentimes it seems that politicians on the face will do something that appears to be good faith to different tribes, and then they'll turn around. I don't know if they're pressured by big multinational corporations, but they'll betray what they said in the first place. Was there any politician who was really committed to defending the Oak Flat that switched?

[Nayland Pike]

Well, yeah, so we had Ankirk Packages, Patrick, who at first was, okay, we're going, and Paul Gosar and that they were going to support us, they were going to work with the tribes and gave us all these promises into protecting Oklahoma, protecting our identity, protecting just the Saint Claus Apache people. And then right when they got elected, because, see, they weren't there. This is in there in their campaign, and they got elected and then they turned their backs on us. And so as a Young girl, you realize that in these fights that you see politicians in bed with corporations all the time. And that doesn't change and that will never change. That's been the history of the United States government. And I think that we have to go back to the founding of this country was broken off of broken treaties, broken promises. And so that's not new to indigenous people. We see this all this time in our history and that's why we embody resiliency. Because if we subdued and allow this darkness, allow, you know, corruption to hit our spirit, then we would have stopped fighting a long time ago. And so this essence of Apache identity, indigenous identity and being stewards of the land and taking care of the earth has always been a part of us. And I cannot let that go. And so when I think about politicians who want to destroy eclat and I say even if we won, even if we win a clinic protected, there's going to be another dirty politician, there's going to be another corporation, there's going to be another, because we're going against all this evil and that's greed. Greed is in all of us. And so Apache people, Native people and the allies that are part of the Apache stronghold are going to keep fighting because this fight will last forever.

[Andrew Callahan]

What do you think corrupts these politicians? Is it just a force of capital? Is it just money or is there something deeper?

[Nayland Pike]

I think it's just money and power. That's what I've always seen. I've seen people who at some point you think that okay, they hear me, they hear me, but there's always a better, you know, a better choice, there's always an easier way out. And you know, at the end of the day we always hope and pray that we fit in there, that the spirit somehow, you know, finds the crack as like we see the plants that find the cracks in concrete. Right. We want to be that, we have to see that.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, well if you, I feel like if you zoom out and look at the long term timeline, at some point situation like Phoenix and Vegas are going to run out of water because they're building and they're creating an unsustainable model that's based upon this short term gratification of like we're going to build massive subdivisions, get these Californians to move here for cheaper and there's going to be a point at which there's a drought, could be climate change, something. But I feel like the greed cycle is going to ultimately backfire. It's going to be like a self eating snake and the people who were taking care of the land prior don't have to worry about that because they're kind of doing their own thing. Do you see that as the kind of endpoint in this timeline?

[Nayland Pike]

Yes, because. Because what happens is at the Apache stronghold. That's kind of what we preach. We preach that we are our own destruction. We preach that Native people, all people, you know, across the world, we are going to hurt and harm our mother, and that's the Earth. And in our ideologies as Apache people, our philosophy is that we are her children, we're stewards of that. But if we're destroying her and the health of the land, if the health of the land is not good, then we aren't, right? And there's that relationship that goes back and forth. But what are we doing to her? How are we harming her? These are all in some way prophecies of what is coming next. And that's the destruction of humanity, of human people, of us. And that's ultimately our end. And it's going to be ourselves. But as a young person, I cannot allow myself to let that be the reason why I stopped. I have to keep fighting. I have to keep fighting for our water. Because you are right. The Phoenix uses water from tribes. You know, and that's what we have we tell people, is that tribes need to be alert. Because what happens is that corporations are getting closer and closer to reservations. And what more and more I got to realize is that national forces, forest lands, all of these places are just being, you know, saved and protected until we need them. Their resources are always, you know, being extracted, exploited, or trying to be attacked by corporations. And so they're just waiting there. They're just waiting there. And the Forest Service are just keeping it there until the United States needs it. But what the fight for Oak Flat embodies and tells us is that one, we're still prisoners of war, two, the genocide still continues on indigenous people. Corporations is a part of corporate America, and it's always has been. And this is a history of cycles that have been happening over and over and over again. So when are the American people going to wake up? When are we going to wake up altogether and fight for the one thing that's going to keep us alive? Air and water?

[Andrew Callahan]

Well, I think ultimately, in the end of this hell timeline, the people who are living in places like Phoenix will probably ask the natives, like, what the hell do I do?

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah, well, that's the thing, is that they're not even going to ask us. They're going to take it as they always have. And that's the thing, is that when it comes to trusted land on the federal, you know, federal land, by the sign of signature of the president, through executive order or through the Congress, they can take away those lands. I mean, Oakvatt was a part of the reservation at one point, but six times our reservation got smaller and smaller, all in the sake of mining. And it's because that they can do that to us. We are always the dust underneath the carpet. We are always the ones who are going to get pushed. I mean, that's the foundation of the country. So when it comes to that time, our people, what are we going to do? How do we protect our future? How do we protect our resources? And that's the thing that are what keeps us going, what keeps us fighting, what keeps our tribes to protect ourselves. Like to be a member of a tribe, to be indigenous your whole existence on the federal, city, local, all levels, spiritual, mental, physical level, is a fight we are resisting. I always tell young native babies and children that when you are born, your first breath is powerful because when you're born, you're a reminder to the federal government that they failed in their strategies to extinct our people. And so we have to have, you know, some sense of pride, some sense of identity, of resiliency, and keep that fight going. And so when I think about, you know, that end time, I think that our people are already. We already know, we've already seen it. We've already prophesied that in our ancient stories. We've already, I mean, Apache Stronghold itself is trying to warn, right, in some sense through the example of Oakvlatt, that this is the world that we live in and if we keep doing this, what will we have left?

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, I did some research. I was trying to find what Resolution Copper's defense is. And the first thing they always say is we're creating a. A ton of jobs. That's what they always say. Every industry that's like based upon exploitation is like, dude, all these people are going to be unemployed if we can't build this. And the second one like you mentioned is that it's not actually on the reservation, but you mentioned that it used to be.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

When did the reservation shrink in size to exclude Oakland?

[Nayland Pike]

So since like the early 1900s when our reservation was created, the reservation was smaller and it was because Arizona is pro mining, like off the back. Its foundation is that if you find, you know, a mineral, you can say, this is where you're going to mine. And that's what happened. And what's interesting is that even in our own Apache history, when we saw settlers, we brought them in, we accepted them. It wasn't until we became the Indian problem because of mining and because of settlement that we were forced onto the reservation. And so when I look back, our reservation is smaller. They're going to do that again. They can't do that. And that's why we have to protect it. I mean, even when we talk about the groundwater and the deep water from the aquifers, like all of that is at stake. And when you have a block cave mine two miles wide and the size of the Eiffel Tower of its height, like that is a huge crater, you cannot tell our people and the surrounding mining towns that that's not going to affect us. That's going to affect us and it's going to affect our. So our Gilson Wash District, that's where we have our Apache tuff. Our water there and our aquifer that it's going to go straight into Oak Flat. And this is only talking about the actual mine itself. That's not talking about the toxic tailings that they're going to leave behind. That's a super fun site that Arizona is going to have to maintain forever, you know. Well, you have Rio Tinto and bhp, the conglomerates of Resolution Copper dip out and go back home.

[Andrew Callahan]

So the aquifer is beneath where the mines proposed to be built.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah. So there's a. When it comes to the tunnel waste, and if you. When that gets unsettled and it's tampered with, what happens is that aquifer will slowly go in. So even though it's not directly under the way the tunnels and the water works underneath, it will affect it.

[Andrew Callahan]

So there's a huge risk that it could contaminate the drinking water that goes to San Crois.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah. Let alone that even with the Gila River Indian tribe, what happened is that they took away their own water, their water, their clean water, and in return they're giving cap water clear.

[Andrew Callahan]

Where do you get that from?

[Nayland Pike]

That's from the sewage and from toilets and things like that that you reclaim.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. Cause I know they got their water rights back, but the area had already been diverted to Phoenix. So it was pretty much like a dry lake bed.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

So your grandfather was one of the founding members of the Apache stronghold.

[Nayland Pike]

Yes.

[Andrew Callahan]

Do you think that he had a major influence on you growing up?

[Nayland Pike]

Oh, definitely. I think there was definitely one moment where I realized that he was doing something important and it was in the town of Superior and it was 4 o' clock. And I remember him standing on a stage and he was wearing a bulletproof vest. And I was looking at him and he was talking about Oak Flat and trying to warn the people that this mine was coming. You know, when you're like 6 years old, you don't really understand everything that he's saying. But for me, I at least knew he was fighting for me, fighting for the young people. And so watching him as a chairman, as a councilman, and now founder of the Apache stronghold, I definitely feel that my grandma grandfather has impacted me not only, you know, through the values in teaching, but opening my eyes to what kind of world that we live in.

[Andrew Callahan]

In terms of just like resource exploitation.

[Nayland Pike]

Yes, resource exploitation, dirty politicians, corruption and just even the facts of like, understanding the government and understanding tribal government and our relationships to, you know, the United States.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. One thing that I think is really interesting about like indigenous people is the transfer of oral histories where really important between generations. Whereas for especially white Americans who assimilated from Europe, there was a conscious effort to cut that wire. It's like my family came from Ireland, but we don't know anything about it because there was this almost frenzy to become normal or just mold, like kind of boil into the melting pot. And so we kind of cut that line. What did your. Did your grandfather ever tell you about what his grandparents told him?

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah. So my grandfather, the one thing that I really love especially because. And in Apache ways and for different tribes, we all have our own ways of teaching, our own roles and things like that. But in terms of Oak Flat, my grandmother, my great grandmother, my aunties and my mom would take me to a flat during our acorn season where we picked our acorn. And in that is when they shared oral teachings and when they would show me how to pick the acorn, how to pray to the tree, how to give thanks, I realized that I was learning and understanding that God, our yosef and our creation creates life and we have to respect it. And, you know, certain values, like only take how much, you know, as much as you need. Never take too much and always give thanks. And so all of those teachings and values were a part of my life. And it was in places like Oakland, it was in places where they were able to share and express. And it's funny because at that time, like in, you know, first person, I was thinking, oh, when are we going to be over? I'm tired. Like I'm. My knees, it's hot outside. But as you get older and you look back at your life, you see those important teachings. And, you know, with my grandfather, because Apache people were runners, and we've always, you know, embodied that running into our lifestyle. And it's like a spiritual connection to our bodies and to the earth. And so my grandfather would always take us on runs, and in those runs, he would share with us us how to pray, how to sing songs, how to be aware of your surroundings. And all of these teachings that make me who I am today. And without that, I don't think I'd be so strong as I am now, because it gives me a sense of pride and it gives me a sense of taking it back to. From away from all of this pain and suffering, you know, because when you live this life, you're hurting, you're constantly fighting. But when you have. Have those moments like those teachings, it's all worth it.

[Andrew Callahan]

Do you remember some of your last conversations with him?

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah, so my grandfather was. He was recently on cnn, and so he was talking about that.

[Andrew Callahan]

Is he alive?

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, my God.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. You're talking about your grandpa. I was getting like, do you miss?

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah, yeah, my grandpa.

[Andrew Callahan]

Your grandpa's alive and on tv.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah, legit. Like, just yesterday he was.

[Andrew Callahan]

I'm, like, getting all, like, fucking soft spoken. Okay, Grandpa's alive.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

Do you remember some of your more recent conversations with him?

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah. So, like, it was really cool. When we were doing our Oak Flat run prior run from Oak Flat to the district court, he was running alongside me, and we were running against the old Hohokam canals alongside them. And he was talking to me about the water and the importance of water and how they connect. You know, whether it's from the spring, from the aquifers, to lakes and to rivers and to oceans, one way or the other, it connects us as people, as human beings, and not only to us as human beings, but to the land and to our plants and to the animals. And that goes into those teachings of when you're. As Apache people, we believe that we have an intimate relationship with the earth and with the animals and. And the plants. And we even have stories that tell us that we speak the same language as them, and that connection is gone. And it's because of assimilation, and it's because of genocide. And so when I hear those stories and hear those teachings from him, I know those are the things that I want to pass down to my children when I have them.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, you mentioned genocide and also linguistics there. And one of the big tenants of colonization, especially during westward Expansion was the erasure of indigenous languages. It was very successful in a lot of places. I think with the Mojave people, there's only one or two speakers left that are all in their 90s. On the Tohono Odom reservation, there's about 250 speakers. With the Dine and Navajo people, like, there's a lot more because they have Duolingo and they have Disney translations for San Carlos. And for your people, how many indigenous language speakers do you think remain?

[Nayland Pike]

I want to say maybe less than 100.

[Andrew Callahan]

And what's the average age?

[Nayland Pike]

And there are going to be older. They're like elders and are coming community. Yeah. And that is something that we're fighting for is our language, because we have only one department, and that's the Apache language department. And what happens is that they have to ask for federal funding. And we don't really have anything that, like, we don't have immersion schools. I think we have one and it's a preschool, but it just goes to preschool. And then those kids are there for only a year. So by the time they're in high school, they. They don't know the language. You know, that in itself is a fight. But what happens is that when with St. Carlos is unique. So in St. Carlos, like I said before, we have different tribes, including the Mojave, the Yaqui and the Yavapai. There are seven bands of Apaches. And there's different. There's like even hundreds of clans. And in all of those, we have different dialects. So it's a clash of having to. My dialect is better than your dialect, or my dialect is, you know, it's just different. Right. And so it's having to. How do you move forward and find the solutions to those issues? That was set because we're forced here and forced to live here. Like, this is San Carlos is our tribal ID now. Right. We're federally recognized there. So it's not like, you know, those that are in Saint Croix or Mojave are those that. That are Chiricahua and Botanque like that they could separate from one another. Most of my people don't even know where they come from. When you ask a young person in San Carlos, where are you from, it's rare that you're going to have them tell you, oh, I'm from here, I'm from the Chiricahua Mountains, I'm from Oak Flat, or I'm from this clan, they're going to say, I'm St. Carlos Apache Post Reservation.

[Andrew Callahan]

We're doing a series on different endangered languages. And it's really hard to keep them alive. It's not just because of the shame that some of the elders carry because of residential schooling, where they were punished for speaking it, but also, it's just really hard to get the youngest generation interested, you know, because they. Even with social media and just with the advent of modernity, it's kind of hard to tell them, like, yo, you have to. Because to learn a language, you have to truly learn it. Like, to the point where that's a voice in your head, they call it. You have to be between three and seven is what linguists estimate. And at that age, kids. Kids are just like. They're literally little kids. So they'd have to be speaking it totally immersed. It would have to be spoken in the home all the time. And it's just hard to maintain when that's not the dominant language. Also, the language of money is English. So people who are trying to hustle. Let's say you work at a casino or anywhere where you can generate revenue, you're gonna have to speak good English every day to make money, Especially in Hawaii or Alaska. It's like, you want to work somewhere where tourists are coming because there's a lot of them. Like, you're gonna be. You have to not only speak English, but speak. Speak English with a perfect dialect. And so a lot of linguists think that the future of indigenous languages is the hybridization of languages. Like, they think that the Navajo language group, the Lakota language group, Ojibwe, and those three are gonna have to kind of combine with regional ones if they want to survive. Do you see something? Do you see that as a fair compromise, or do you feel like we should?

[Nayland Pike]

No, and I think you want to. You see, the evolve language, too, is, like, for Apache people, we don't have a word for sorry. We don't have words for, like. I know. I think that's so fun, too. I always tell my friends, like, yeah, everything we did is with intention. So, like, you know, there's no word for sorry. And that goes into the Apache philosophy. You know, we have to find words like casino or, like, you know, certain things that never existed in our ancient language. And you have to, like, add new things. And how do you do that? And in Apache, for most right now, what we're doing is our. The words are description. So it's just describing the place or describing the cell phone or whatever. Yeah. So, like, it's definitely entering a new era. But, no, I don't see our Apache people Using that as a compromise.

[Andrew Callahan]

Right. It's just tough because so much ancestral metadata is embedded into certain words that were passed on and when they get Anglicized, at least loses meaning. I read some crazy thing that was most Anglicized languages from Europe after the Industrial revolution, they objectify everything in the natural world, whereas almost every language before would refer to it with some sort of like family thing. If you're talking about a plant that gave you food or something that gave you water or like a coconut that gave you something to eat, you'd refer to it as like the friend, the part of the family, the source, the God spirit. Whereas in English it's like that thing like everything except for the human, including, including animals are a thing. And so it makes us, we're human. Homo sapiens are the only thing worthy of being treated as more than an object.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah, like we're superior and everything else is superior. Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

So how did Oak Flat become a target for mining companies in the first place?

[Nayland Pike]

I think because we're a part of the mining corridor and so you have superior Miami and Globe. And that's like we're amongst the Copper Triangle and Oak Flat is right in the middle of Oak. And then you have Resolution Copper through BHP who is already mining around the area creating a conglomerate. And that conglomerate is why they wanted to seek out this copper ore. And it's the largest copper ore in North America. And so they're wanting it. It's a multi billion dollar company. You know, we have Rio Tinto who's notorious for destroying sacred sites and destroying places all around the world through violence, through man camps, through all sorts of different tactics. And then you have bhp. So and they came together and for years like this has been a 30 plus year fight of them trying to extract this copper ore. What are some.

[Andrew Callahan]

Of the main negative health impacts that could come as a result of the construction?

[Nayland Pike]

I think that for SO one there's a block cave mining process because it's so deep into the earth, no human can work there. So everything is going to be used with technology and robotics. And that's why it's so funny when they try to push jobs, jobs especially in the local areas, they'll say we're going to create jobs, we're going to create jobs. In order to get those jobs you have to be in it, you have to understand technology. And a lot of our people think it's going to be the old ways of mining where they go in there and they're able to just do hard labor now like Resolution Copper and the type of mining that they're going to do is not that. And I think there's all of that. And what we've seen in the history of the local towns is cancer. A lot of the young men and the women who went to work in the mines most of their life, they had cancer. And so we tried to. Those people come out and they say, don't support the mine. You know, Superior has a group of people who have been affected by that or if their families have been affected. And that's why we say it's not just an Apache fight, it's not just a native fight. Like, these corporations are cornering these small towns, making them believe that this is the only way to thrive, this is the only way to live and support your families. And that's not the case. Like, copper is 100% recyclable. Why aren't we not going out there to abandoned buildings and reclaiming those coppers and using those.

[Andrew Callahan]

Well, some people are. They're just homeless.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah. And. Yeah, exactly. And then there's other people, like, who say, like, no, we have to mine. This is our only way. But that's not true. And they say they're going to supply the 25% of the demand needed for the United States, but the rest of that copper is going to China. Like, we have no smelters here that are going to process copper. And so all of it's going back. And that's why some of the judges are saying, how did this happen? How did this happen in Congress? How does this. And it's because this is corruption. This is called politicians being corrupted. This is how it works. And, you know, that's why we have to wake up the American people.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, I like how you said demand, too, because, like, that's demand for now. It's not as if there is an unlimited well of copper at this place. Like, it's demand until it's used. It's not like copper just being generated, like, all the time, like some sort of mint facility.

[Nayland Pike]

And a lot of times, and this is what we've seen in the old mines in those mining towns, is that they will project, like, so many years. So in this case, Oak Flat, they say that it'll have 40 years of mining for the copper supply, but a lot of times it doesn't last up to the projection of the years of the mine that they say is projected. So that 40 years. It probably might not be 40 years.

[Andrew Callahan]

Even if it is, that's nothing. Yeah, 40 years. I mean, 20 years.

[Nayland Pike]

For the definition of a religious sacred site that we go to pray to, like that is a violation of our human rights. It's a violation of all of our. We have our ancestors buried there. We have medicinal plant ceremonies that we do today. And we even have ceremonies that are, are supposed to happen in this next fall. But if the transfer happens, what, what do we do? And that's why it's such a burden on our people. Because this is, you know, they can force us, kill us and put us on reservations. They can try and, you know, take our babies, put them in residential schools, they can put us in the relocation act, take our young men and women to San Francisco, to Florida, to all these places and say, you know, this is where you're going to live now. And in all of that we survive. And I feel, and I believe, and my people believe that the reason why we were able to survive all of these different acts of genocide is because we had our spiritual places, our holy sites still there. So when those are gone, because in our oral history, our teachings, our values, our religious teachings are all taught through the land. Our language is connected with the land, our songs talk about those lands. Our prayers are entwined with the earth. All, all of it is embodied into us as human beings. And when that's gone, a tree can't grow without its roots. And so that's why for me and for my family and for my people, this is our survival. This is what it is to survive. This isn't so that we can go to another church and rebuild one, because you can't rebuild this. This will be a crater forever.

[Andrew Callahan]

What tangible steps can be taken right now to prevent Resolution Copper from my Oak Flat?

[Nayland Pike]

It's for people waking up and going to their congress people. It's for people to wake up and stand with the Apache stronghold and to pray with us and to continue to do ceremonies there and to occupy Oak Flat and come together as one group of people. And I think that when it comes to Resolution Copper, it's saying no and making sure that we are heard. We have to use all different types of ways to, to make it known because we are the dust underneath the carpet. And so we have to say enough is enough and you know, supersede the fact of, okay, we're under the category as this is a native fight. Because it's not at this point, it's an Arizona fight, it's a nation fight and it's an all religious fight. And that's why we have over 200 plus different religions supporting the Apache Stronghold because they know if the first people, this country's religion is being taken away, then their religion is. Is no safer.

[Andrew Callahan]

So when are we going to occupy it and how many people will it take to stop the mine?

[Nayland Pike]

I guess we'll find out as we continue on with the repeal and the fight to protect it through vigils and things like that. When we go to D.C. and so up next is just waiting. When do we have to go to D.C. and come together? And I think I'm happy that the Apache stronghold is, you know, exploring the options. And we're going to repeal and ask the Supreme Court to rehear our case.

[Andrew Callahan]

Okay, so you. You can appeal a Supreme Court decision.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah. Okay.

[Andrew Callahan]

And so the appeal needs to be heard before the construction.

[Nayland Pike]

So that's where things get gray. And that's why it's. Everything is happening so fast. And that's why we had to do the emergency injunction is because once it's finalized, and that's in June 16th. So everyone's waiting for June 16th in the next month or so, because that means the land transfer turns over to private land. So that means the public lands and the Taunton National Forest will no longer stand. It's going to be resolution copper mine. And that's why everything is being pushed. And so we'll see. Everything is just a waiting game at this point.

[Andrew Callahan]

Do you think there's a conspiracy that's kind of like. That's engineered by Hollywood and these corporations to suppress these kind of stories? Because I noticed that every time I cover an ongoing struggle with native land rights and stuff like that, it gets shadow banned. Like, this might not show up in many people's discovery boxes, but what does get a lot of airtime is stories that claim to be, like, celebrating or reminding Americans of the horrible things that happen to indigenous people, but they're kind of. It's hard to explain. Like, the Hollywood movie Killers of the Flower Moon may give you the impression that, like, the fight is over. Like, it was really sad. It's time for us to remember it. It's kind of like slavery movies. It's like, why are they showing this? It's almost a psychic tool, I think, to remind people that they were subjugated and controlled while allowing people to kind of feel bad as a form of penance for a very short period of time. Or they're down with really happy go lucky stories about kids from the reservation who became movie stars or something. And it's like, oh, cool. So I feel like they're only down with things about how the Native Americans were defeated or about Native Americans today who left the horrible reservation and became famous and moved to New York City and are now advocating and raising visibility for voices. But when it comes to ongoing struggles, they really don't want people to know that. And I feel like y' all have a unique perspective being in Arizona because the fight is very much not over. Whereas in some places, like I don't want to say it's over in Florida.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

But it pretty much is. When it comes to the densely populated southeastern states, like there's really not much you can do, especially with people who have already been moved to Oklahoma. There's not really much land back possibility. Do you see Arizona as the frontier for the land back movement?

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah, I think in indigenous people for sure are, there's, you know, us as Apache people. There's those that are in south and North Dakota that are fighting for land back like the Black Hills or certain places like that. But right now with the fight for Oak Flat because it hits our religious, you know, rights, it definitely makes it in the forefront. And that's why you have tribes across this country standing behind us because they know that each tribe that's federally recognized are going to be impacted. Our religious freedom is potentially going to be stripped away through this case and through Oak Flat because we're allowing Resolution Copper, a foreign mining company come and destroy a completely holy site where our religion is intact with. And when you take that away, then what does that say about Indian country? What does that say about our religious rights? It says that corporate over native people. And that's why we want to ensure is that in this process. Because we've already known that this has happened since time the United States was created. But we want people to know and wake up that it has an end, that it's continued and that it's still here, it's still happening and that this is America. This is what has always been America. And the indigenous people are always going to be the first ones out.

[Andrew Callahan]

All right, taking a quick break here from the Oak Flat land dispute to discuss some other relevant news this week. So the assassin that killed Minnesota State Representative Representative Melissa Hortman and her husband Mark Hortman, and shot State Senator John Hoffman and his wife Yvette has been captured, which is great. But according to court documents, the suspect allegedly used data brokers to obtain the victim's addresses and personal details before the crime. Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon says Congress doesn't need any more proof that people are being killed based on data for sale online. And he's right. Currently, the issue of protecting your privacy has proven to be a do or do die situation. Which is why I use Incogni, the privacy tool that makes invasive data hoarders. Delete your information. Did you know that every time you sign up for a newsletter or order some stuff online, your name, email, home address, IP data and shopping history get scooped up and sold to the highest bidder, Mostly to companies you've never heard of, who can then take it and then sell it to people like that twisted son of a bitch in Minnesota. That's where Incogni comes in. They reach out to data broker sites on your behalf, file official removal requests, and fight back when companies try to play dumb and keep your info. After I signed up, Incogni hit up 86 different data brokers that were selling my info. And a week later I noticed a big drop in spam emails. No more fake inheritance scams, no more creepy phone calls from health providers I never contact. And that one time I subscribed to a sketchy Survivalist newsletter in 2012. Gone.

[Nayland Pike]

Poof.

[Andrew Callahan]

Forgotten. Like it never happened. And here's what you gotta do to be like me. Go to incogni.com channel5 and use the code channel5C H A N N E L 5 to get 60% off your annual plan. That's incogni.com channel5. Code channel5. Or just click the link in the pinned comment or the description below. They make things easy as hell. You just sign up. Give Incogni your permission to fight for your data rights and then sit back while they go scorched up earth on your digital trail. If you're like me and you care about privacy and don't want your name, address, or even just your weird search history ending up in the hands of the highest bidder, get Incogni. It's that simple. Protect your info and take your personal data off the market before somebody uses it against you again. Use code [e-mail] CHANNEL5 to get an exclusive 60% off. Supporting Incogni means supporting us and helps keep Channel 5 corporate data leak free. So stay safe out there and get Incogni. You mentioned religion. So you mean like indigenous religion? Yeah, like not Christianity, Not Christianity. What's it called for us?

[Nayland Pike]

When I say indigenous religion? It's going to be, I guess, an umbrella of our Apache spirituality. And that could be for other different tribes and that connection to the land. So it's our spiritual tie and connection to the land that we use we practice every day the Earth, like our sacred places, whether it's Mount Graham, whether if it's Oak Flat, and to, you know, like the Lakota, for them, it's the Black Hills. And for Dine, it could be the confluence, it could be the Black Hills. And for the O', Odham, it could be South Mountain. And for them, those are their churches. And so when they're destroyed, you can't rebuild those places. We practice that religiously every day. What we breathe, it's who we are. And. And so that's why we call it our religion, so that it can be recognized, because the United States government does not want to recognize our spiritual ties to the Earth. When you start to recognize your spiritual tie to the Earth, they have to take accountability for everything that they've done to the earth and to our people because we've seen countless sacred sites be destroyed and exploited. And so. So that's why this fight continues is so that we could be seen in the eyes of the United States government. And if they do not want to see us, then at least the American people know.

[Andrew Callahan]

Is there any overlap religiously with Christianity there at Oklahoma? No. I mean, you're talking about, like, Apache spirituality. Is there, like, can it exist in tandem with Christianity, or is it something separate? I'm just trying to kind of figure out.

[Nayland Pike]

I think it depends. Yeah, I think in some sense, to some people it might, and to others it might not. But when you take it back to Christianity, it leads back from the earth. And so when it comes to the Apache people and our ways of life, it's to the earth. I think that as human beings, the earth is our religion, and it sustains us. It makes us who we are. And so in that spectrum, it can be.

[Andrew Callahan]

So it's a set of spiritual tenets that can accompany any major religion. And it has to do a lot with, like, the ancestors and communication with the different spiritual realm of those who have transitioned.

[Nayland Pike]

Yes.

[Andrew Callahan]

Which is tied to.

[Nayland Pike]

Yes.

[Andrew Callahan]

Okay, that makes sense. So do you believe in God?

[Nayland Pike]

I believe in our creator, yes.

[Andrew Callahan]

Oh, whoa. So kinda.

[Nayland Pike]

So I believe that there, in our Apache way, we call him Yosen. Yosen is creator, and it's a higher power. And then we have Dian, which are our holy people. And Oak Flat actually has one of our gods. And the only way that we can explain it is like an angel, I guess. And see, this is a crossover between languages. Right. And so for our gonds, we believe that our red gond that came from our mountains is at Oak Flat. And so that's why it's a holy site. Because, you know, you have San Carlos reservation, Right. That's a place that we wouldn't really call sacred. Right. But this place, we believe, is a direct connection and corridor to our creator. To some people, they call it God, and to some it's Yosen. And for me, it's Yosen. Creator.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. So you feel like God with the capital G just flattens it into something.

[Nayland Pike]

Like two dimensional, I think, like in the language. Yes, because you have. And God. Right. So it's like love. Like, you know, like when you say love and it's so much more deep. I can't explain it. Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

Is it similar to the idea of universal consciousness in Buddhism, which is the interconnectivity of all living beings?

[Nayland Pike]

Kind of, yeah. And that's the thing. I think what makes it different is that, like, when we try to categorize and, and make each different thing a part of something, that also takes it away. Because when we talk about religion and when we talk about Apache spirituality or Christianity or Buddhism and all these things, all of it's its own and unique way. And for Apaches, it's just our Apache spirituality. It's our religion, it's our way of life. This is something that we have and it may be different from if, if we generalize it, it takes away a part of that spirit.

[Andrew Callahan]

How did the Apache people get that reputation? You know what I mean? Just not playing around.

[Nayland Pike]

I don't know, maybe.

[Andrew Callahan]

Why are they naming helicopters in different military.

[Nayland Pike]

I think because of our warfare, because of how we fought the settlers who came in and when we did, like, okay, the guerrilla warfare, right. They say like the Apaches were down in the canyons and they couldn't find them, but they, they were there the whole time. Or some of the things that they would say was when the calvary were trying to chase certain groups of Apaches, that it would be apaches could travel 80 miles a day by foot. And so, I mean, that in itself is pretty powerful. And when we look, I remember we had a mentor and he would tell us that Apache, like the average Apache body for a male and a female, is like the Olympic individual that we see today in even our diet. And so when you see a great. Of settlers that are coming in from Europe, right, or from other places who have already taken colonization, who are already assimilated, who are already, you know, eating sugar and flour and all of those things that hurt their bodies, and you see a different group of people that look so different and who are powerful in its own way. Of course we're going to be romanticized and be a legend. And I still believe that's who we are today. I still believe that resonates within us. But what you see here now today is the people trying to survive genocide.

[Andrew Callahan]

What are some of the main challenges that are faced by just contemporary people living on the reservation day to day?

[Nayland Pike]

Substance abuse, suicide. And I think right now what has really hit our community is the missing and murdered indigenous people. We recently had a case where there's a girl, a teenage girl, her name was Emily pike and she was found murdered off of the reservation not too far. And that's something that we've seen across Indian country is missing and murdered indigenous people. And when you're native and you're found dead or found missing or all of those things, the jurisdiction takes place and it's like what is a native person? And we become a limbo. So that's what we've been facing. And then also a lot of that happens because of man camps. Why they're called man camps is because they're camps where people from different places are brought in to work at exploitation sites that are near sacred sites that are near residents reservations. And so we see them coming. And that's one of my biggest fear as a native woman is that if EOL clad is going to turn into residential copper because Rio Tinto is known for that and they're going to have a man camp, what does that make our women and girls and our boys unsafe? And so these are the things that we face, we face so much. And even like missionaries on reservations that still occurs to this day.

[Andrew Callahan]

So man camp violence would be dudes who are like blue collar who are coming to work for some of these energy companies and have no connection to the area. And you're saying they just take advantage of people for sport.

[Nayland Pike]

There's so countless stories across Indian country where that happens. But yeah, like you said, it's one of those things that we preach and we're yelling like this is what's happening, this is what's happening. But the media just doesn't want to show that.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, I always saw the missing indigenous stuff and I was wondering if that had anything to do with tribal police, police cover ups.

[Nayland Pike]

It could be, but a lot of it could be from man camps. But see, a lot of these cases are that they're still open or they're cold cases they've never found anyone in. And when they do, sometimes it's even just non natives that are from the surrounding towns that get a slap on the wrist.

[Andrew Callahan]

That's crazy. I know that. There's also different tribes in Montana right now that are experiencing the cartels using their reservations as distribution centers and taking advantage of some of those sovereignty loopholes. Is that a problem in Arizona?

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah. Our law enforcement does face with certain things like that. And you hear stories and cases where families have to deal with, you know, just all of that turmoil. What we see is the United States people just allowing our people to struggle is allowing our people to barely, like, put their head over the water because we're drowning. Not only are we facing internal issues, but we're also facing issues by the state and by the government intended to do this. And so when I see all of these issues, this isn't because we're in a broken system. It's a system that is meant to destroy our people. Like, this system is happening in the way it should, and so it's having to break that.

[Andrew Callahan]

So you think the ultimate goal of the US in putting people on reservations was to kill them off?

[Nayland Pike]

I mean, it went from kill the Indian to save the man. Right. So if they couldn't kill us, then they're going to kill our identity and assimilate us and to make. Make us them. What the United States and what people who came from other places are seeing. It is what their ancestors used to be, but it's today, and it's happening to us. And we don't want to be that. I don't want to not know who I am. I don't want. Not want to have my roots be stripped away from me and have that for my children. As I see people all across this country who are asking, what's my identity? Who am I? Where do I come from? Where. Where did my ancestors come from? My ancestors, My ancestors are here. My ancestors are the earth and the land and the plants and the animals. They speak to me. They're a part of me. I can go outside and eat the foods that my ancestors ate. And for most people in this country, they can't. And that's why I have to keep fighting, because I don't want to walk. I don't want to be a zombie in corporate America. I have my life. I have what has been passed on. And that's why we are fighting every generation, generation since the settlers have came, we've been fighting. And I will keep fighting.

[Andrew Callahan]

Hell yeah. Zombie in corporate America is a pretty sick way to put it. Do you have a lot of friends who you grew up with? Who now Work like IBM or something. Just punch card.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah. I mean even I feel like at some point I like that like Apache stronghold in what I do is because I want to do it. But like even my job as working in the tribal government, I feel that that way. And it's because we're like forced, like in this schedule, in this time and all of these things. And it's funny because indigenous people, that's never been us, like we've never had a schedule. We've never. And so you even have people on the reservation say, oh, I'm on Indian time. We don't have no schedules and things like that. We have a soft agenda because we do. This isn't a part of us. We're having to assimilate when we do that. And so I see a lot of, of my peers and others learning. They struggle. Like it's a struggle and it makes us have those social illnesses where you're just not satisfied. This isn't who we're meant to be.

[Andrew Callahan]

What's the extent of tribal sovereignty? Because I feel like it's a word that gets used a lot, but it's obviously not sovereign.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah. So I think the extent of sovereignty is what the United States tries to use to cover up and deceive our people and deceive people off the reservation. That Native people are sovereign, that we can live and do whatever we, we have this freedom. I mean, why, if we had freedom, then why am I fighting to pray? Why am I fighting to keep my language? Why am I fighting to live the next day? Why am I? You know, there's so many ways and whether it's through policies or to the day to day going into bashes and walking in aisles and aisles of super processed food and sugar that's placed by even a store that's not even a tribal owned business, like owned by Native people giving us that, you know. So the sovereignty only reaches so far to just surviving.

[Andrew Callahan]

You mentioned sugar a couple different times. Yeah, sugar is bad for you, right?

[Nayland Pike]

Sugar is really bad for you.

[Andrew Callahan]

Is processed sugar like something that's causing significant negative health impacts on the reservation?

[Nayland Pike]

Yes. It's like one of the top contributors to the illnesses that we face on the reservation. And not just for like San Carlos, but across Indian country. Diabetes is like on its full blown high rates that our people are getting. And it's because our bodies are not adapted or used to the kind of foods and lifestyles that everybody lives. And we weren't sedentary people. We worked to get our food and we harvested and the harvesting is work in itself. We ran, we hunted, we did all these things that our body is not. Has not evolved to be able to consume what we consume at the high rates that we do. And then, you know, when you see places where we're in what is like a food desert, right, where we don't have an option, like most of our people don't have vehicles to leave the reservation. And when they leave the reservation, the next store is like 20 minutes away on either side. And we only have one grocery store and that's mashes that has aisles of the super processed foods of sugars and of that stuff that they go to and eat. And so you see, you know, if you had healthy food and then you had a bag of hot Cheetos, almost of the kids are going to pick a bag of hot Cheetos. But. But then you see this change of all of the foods that we eat on the reservation, post reservation, it's filled with all of that sugar and flour. And it's because of the rations that were given to us by the United States government. It's been that way since. Since we were placed here in San Carlos. And so our people were having to educate our people that you cannot eat this, that this food is bad. This is what's killing us. This is our silent killer. Just the way as alcohol is. You know those that alcohol in that was used to give to people when the reservations were first created and said, here, oh, you're in pain, you're sick, here's alcohol, here's alcohol. And that's where alcoholism was born on the reservations. On top of that, you have PTSD because we have trauma from being killed and our women being raped or our children going missing, broken families. Our men were no longer able to hunt and provide and hold that strength and protect our families. All of that was taken away. And then you're going to tell us that this is what we can't eat. You can't harvest, you can't do this, you can't practice your ways of life. You can't hunt no more. And it's going to cause alcoholism, which is also high in sugar, Right?

[Andrew Callahan]

A genetic intolerance to process and refined sugar in a similar way that there is to alcohol.

[Nayland Pike]

I think so, yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, that makes sense. That also makes sense why there's so much obesity in Mexico.

[Nayland Pike]

The high rates of obesity and when it's tied to diabetes is it's so high on reservations right now. And so it's just trying to revitalize not only healthy Eating, but also revitalize harvesting our traditional old foods. And so, like, I'm a part of groups in San Carlos where we go out and we harvest wild foods and we. We try to teach that and create plates for people to try and eat and things like that. I think that's really helped the relationship between me and the earth and me and my community, and also trying to teach our young ones that you don't have to be subjected to corporate America and to post reservation suffering. These are the things that can help you. And it starts with us, right, and what we eat and how we wake up in the day. Those are a part of all of our philosophies. Like being Apache is not like what it's like to be read on a book. It's not like we suffer, but we also survive. And in yet some small ways we thrive. And I feel that that sense of thriving is when I'm eating prickly pears, when I'm eating namajega, which is sabal fruit, or when I'm eating tokoja and tree thinking and trying to find ways to incorporate this in my diet. And I feel like that, in a small sense is an act of resistance.

[Andrew Callahan]

That sounds great. Do you want to give a message to somebody out there who Maybe is about 15 years old inside of Bashes right now on the reservation, about to walk out with a tall boy of steel reserve, which is beer, and then a bag of hot Cheetos, and submit an application to work at a man camp in Oak Flat?

[Nayland Pike]

Dude, that's going to kill you. Our ancestors are not. Well, my thing is, is would your ancestors be proud of what you are doing? Because I know that your ancestors did not die for you to walk this path. I know that they've seeded you to be like your ancestors and carry that resiliency and carry that identity of what it means to be Apache, of what it means to embody freedom. The Apache people have always believed in freedom. But when we take in that journey to allow corporations to allow genocide to be the weight on our shoulders, then we continue the invisible shackles. So it's time to break those invisible shackles.

[Andrew Callahan]

Just somewhere where people can keep updated as to like, you know, how they can get involved or something like that.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah. So we have a website, it's apache- stronghold.com and that has a lot of load of, you know, press releases and documents, hydrologist reports, geological reports that are for Oak Flat, and ways to contact the Apache stronghold and also to contact our own senators and congress people. We have a Huge amount of resources on there that if you want to know anything and everything about Oak Flat, it would definitely be on that website.

[Andrew Callahan]

Well, I hope it doesn't get built. And if it does, we'll pay some mercenaries to go set it on fire.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah, for sure.

[Andrew Callahan]

We use our Patreon subscriber money to hire a private security force to commit arson.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah. Resolution Copper will not win.

[Andrew Callahan]

Who's the CEO of Resolution Copper?

[Nayland Pike]

Well, I'm not sure.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, fuck him. What happened at the airport?

[Nayland Pike]

Okay, so I was supposed to actually fly to Montana to the Northern Cheyennes. And when I went out there it was for sake of could run. My mother, she didn't tell me this until after the end. But we all had to get off the plane and everything was stopped. But it was at the end of it, it was because we were getting death threats that I was on the plane and that they were going to. That they had messed with the plane or they were going to do something on the plane because I was going. And so my whole life alongside with my grandfather, we've gone through a lot of people who want to hurt us minors, just people who want to take our life away for fighting for a pla. And all these death threats that we face. And so anyways the plane we got out and everything was clear and things like that. But this is, this happens often. You know, there are certain times where like I said when I was six, my grandfather had to wear a bulletproof vest. And there's sometimes when I have to and so in this fight it can be dangerous.

[Andrew Callahan]

Who was threatening your life?

[Nayland Pike]

I. She never wanted to tell me but just like some. It must, it must have been like I was on a phone. They called and they texted and everything and then that's when she called the airport and the airport did everything and stuff like that. But we'll get randoms like people who are just like on call. You know when they like restrict their number or things like that or like it's just like a prep paid phone or something and they'll say those things. And we've had even on our marches, you know, angry people come up and try to hit us.

[Andrew Callahan]

What do they say? Adam? Trying to figure out what their MOK nephew. Fuck you, Copper.

[Nayland Pike]

Rules. Yeah, go back to the reservation. You know, things like that are these.

[Andrew Callahan]

Like biker looking types. That's what I'm picturing.

[Nayland Pike]

Oh, giant bees some of them.

[Andrew Callahan]

So many fucking jobs.

[Nayland Pike]

They're usually aggressive males for sure, white males, else.

[Andrew Callahan]

But they come running out of their.

[Nayland Pike]

Pickup trucks so we just like face a lot of like, just angry people and people who don't want native people to either exist or that they do support Resolution Copper or who knows, Resolution Copper could be giving them something. Yeah, they do. Like little me, you know, is like fighting a multi billion dollar company. And that sometimes like makes me laugh. You know, like we're just like a group of apparent catchy people, group of the people. But you know, you can't mistake. We are, you know, in some ways.

[Andrew Callahan]

We'Re fighting multi billion dollar companies too with the we're doing here. It's not easy. It's not, it's not a fun time. No, it's crazy how much money like people really will like sell their soul for money. Like I bet some of the people giving you death threats may have not even known what you were doing.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

You know, just like harass this person. Yeah, yeah. The hate is crazy. Remember in essence when they were protest, there was a protest where somebody got shot because they were trying to remove, I think they were removing a statue of like a Spanish conquistador. The dude who shot the person was himself Mexican.

[Nayland Pike]

Oh wow.

[Andrew Callahan]

And he was like, I think he yelled like I'm Spanish homie. And just like shot at people. Do you have a lot of people on the reservation? Because I remember one time I was driving past Window Rock and I saw the Navajo flag but had the Blue Lives Matter stripe on it.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah, I think that like so for San Carlos there are some people, people who work with the mine and it's because of money. I mean that's what I'm saying is that there's this on the deeper spectrum of everything. It's the fact that Resolution Copper, a multi billion dollar company is cornering people to say this is your livelihood, you have family, you have kids and how are you going to support them? And unfortunately they take that risk and they accept those offers. In my lifetime I've seen so many different politicians and leaders, tribal, national, you know, level at one point say I support it and then be in bed with them the next. And so you, the trust is you just, you have to keep going and just keep moving forward and have hope. But like in our marches, like we are non violent and we, our direct action through protest is all with our ancient religion and our prayers as a whole cornerstone like that. What we do in our resistance is through praying and through practicing our ceremonies. And so you know, when it comes to like people who are angry, let's say like that, right? Like the cop or the guy was trying to hit us. Right. If we even touched that vehicle, we would be the bad guys. We would be the ones that are going to be, you know, put in jail. And so it's like what we're doing as the Apache stronghold is trying to do everything and the right process, and that's whether it's through the judicial right, through the Supreme Court, through the legislative, through, like Save a Flat act, or even now, you know, with Patrick Schoenkill sending a letter to the president and now to the executive. And in all of these ways that when you do the moral and ethical process, you're constantly reminded of the corruption that these corporations that these politicians, you know, uptake and uphold to get their way to selling their soul, like you said, or to do the these things to harm and hurt others for the sake of their money, their company, their own power. And so I feel like during those marches and things like that, I have to be on my tiptoes. I have to walk on eggshells because to them I'm a brown native radical, you know, and I will always probably look that way when I'm honestly just trying to practice my way of life and pray. I'm not trying to harm anyone. I'm not trying to do anything. And there's so much hate and harm that's coming our way. And you just. If I get like, if so if a person is coming to me and they're going to hit me, they're going to hit me. They're just going to have to hit me and hit me and hit me. And if I die in that, I die in that and I be. And my life will go, you know, for the sake of Oak Flat. But if I put my hand on that person, everything that I fought for, everything that my people fought for, everything that we stand for is going to be our out the door. And that's what it's like to be this person.

[Andrew Callahan]

So you're ready to die for the cause?

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah, of course.

[Andrew Callahan]

I mean, if you go by way of assassination, which is how I think I'm gonna go eventually, that's how you know, you did the right thing.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah. And that's something that I'm happy to die with. I'd rather die for that than to know that I destroyed a whole religion, a whole group of people, to know that I allowed money to eat that and to speak that I wouldn't. Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

The confusing thing about money is I always wonder, like, what. What do they want to do with it? When you sacrifice your morals and values for money, I Always ask people, what's the plan once you get the money? Is it a house, is it a vehicle? So many people don't even have a plan. They just want to hoard it and then figure that out later. But you can't do that much with money.

[Nayland Pike]

No. And most people are unsatisfied and not happy anyway. So it's like when you have all this money and you allow greed. That's what greed is, and that's when greed wins, is because it's when it's seated in you and allow it to corrupt you that what keeps you from wanting more and more. And what does that do in return? Just continue. Corporations, it continues this demand and supply like that's what they want. That's. If that's what everyone became, then, you know, the quicker we'd all go out.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. I was reading a study the other day, said that the highest depression rates in America are among the bottom 5% and the top 1%. Because the really poor are just like trying. They're doing. They're kind of crabs in a bucket trying to get out. And the top 1%, I don't know if they're spiritually tortured from exploiting people or something, but they hate each other. They're jealous of each other. And you never win the rat race.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah, they're probably so paranoid that someone's trying to take their money anyways.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. Because they can't trust anybody. If you had a billion dollars, you can't trust anybody.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah, and I would never want to be that.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, but getting 100,000 would be dope though, right?

[Nayland Pike]

No, it depends on what it's for.

[Andrew Callahan]

You could just buy you and five of your friends. Friends houses or something. I always think that's pretty sick amount of money to get.

[Nayland Pike]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

Or you could hire bodyguards.

[Nayland Pike]

I just want to know where that money came from. I could never accept it without knowing.

[Andrew Callahan]

Well, at least you can trust your grandpa.

[Nayland Pike]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[Andrew Callahan]

He's very much alive.

[Nayland Pike]

Yes, he's alive. He's so alive. He's running and eating and. Yeah, he's alive.

[Andrew Callahan]

Channel 5 live worldwide. Hollywood advice.

[Nayland Pike]

The authority.

[Jake Frawa]

Channel 5 news channel 55.

[Andrew Callahan]

We don't with custers and 5 is the best number. Hey, you. That's right, you. Are you a documentary filmmaker or a journalist whose work is being held captive by the fat cats at the Hollywood studios? Or even worse, being held back by a tyrannical parent organization like Vice Vox and Mother Jones? Well, I have great news for you. Those days are over because we are launching our own independent documentary platform called C5Now C5Now C5Now C 5Now. It's going to be available on smart TV, iOS and just a regular old computer. A lot of you guys might Wonder what makes C5 now different than Peacock or HBO Max or Tubi. And the answer is residuals. I know some of you guys may think that residuals is an HPPD symptom, but that's not the case. It means the proportion of streaming revenue that you get paid after your movie is on a platform. Most people get 10% or 20% of residuals. But if you got a film on C5 now you're gonna get 55% or more of residuals. Yeah, it's gonna cost money. It's gonna cost $5.55 a month much like the Dear Kelly film. But the thing is that money is gonna go straight to the director, straight to the executive producer, straight to the people who actually put money into the product project itself. So we don't gotta fuckin break off fat chunks of change for all these fat cats telling us how to think. So if you have something you wanna submit, just do me a favor, email me that to submissionsannel5news and you too can be a part of C5 now. We're not gonna change or edit, but we will give some feedback if it's not that good. But it's almost there. Maybe less music, put a little bit less music on there if you want to, but you don't have to. And that's key to Channel 5Now suggestion, not enforcement. And the best thing about C5Now is you don't gotta be be 18 to sign up.

[Nayland Pike]

Content for all ages, not just adults.

[Andrew Callahan]

We're gonna have documentaries for kids about the history of Roblox or how to succeed in Minecraft. Maybe we'll have some Mr. Beast stuff on there, not sure. Maybe even other languages one day. Mandarin Chinese.

[Nayland Pike]

Even if I spoke a different language.

[Andrew Callahan]

I'd subscribe to Golog. That's the main language of the Philippines. Speak a bit of Navajo if you want. And the best thing about Channel 5 and C5 now is we're gonna take those proceeds and support local business. This compra dos amigo six five like now everybody.