The Last Person to Debate Charlie Kirk (Exclusive Interview)

Summary

5CAST w/ Andrew Callaghan
Episode: The Last Person to Debate Charlie Kirk (Exclusive Interview)
Date: September 13, 2025

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Episode Overview

This intense, emotional episode of 5CAST with Andrew Callaghan delivers a firsthand account from "Hunter," a math student who was the last person to debate conservative commentator Charlie Kirk right before Kirk was assassinated at Utah Valley University. The conversation unpacks Hunter’s motivations for attending, the nature of his debate with Kirk, the chaotic aftermath of the shooting, and a raw discussion about political violence, social media reaction, and the future of discourse in America. The episode also places the event within the larger context of political polarization and explores the personal toll and broader implications of such tragedies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Hunter’s Background and Motivation

• Hunter is a university math student who debates Charlie Kirk online, especially challenging narratives about transgender people and violence.
  • “I make videos on Charlie Kirk...the point that I was trying to make was that they are...a statistical outlier, that they're extremely underrepresented when it comes to how peaceful they are.” (00:21)
• Motivated to attend to directly confront Kirk on what he saw as misleading statistics and to engage a conservative audience openly platforming disagreement.

The Event Atmosphere

• The event was conservative-leaning, lively, and had visible ideological divides (flags, chants, rooftop protestors), but remained mostly civil pre-shooting.
  • “Everyone was very energetic, chanting Trump, chanting USA...there was a line of liberals on the rooftop...pride flags, and some Palestine flags.” (02:19, 02:33)
• Debates ranged from trivial (“LeBron or Jordan?”) to theological.

The Last Debate with Charlie Kirk

• Hunter confronts Kirk with statistical questions about trans individuals and gun violence, challenging recent claims about a supposed trend.
• As the debate is unfolding, the assassination occurs.
  • “Do you know how many transgender Americans have been mass shooters over the last 10 years?...There’s five...do you know how many shootings there have been?...a little under 6,000...I was in the middle of saying that when he got shot.” (03:36–05:04)

Chaos and Personal Reactions to the Assassination

• Immediate confusion and fear; Hunter and crowd duck for cover. Hunter's wife is in the crowd, adding personal urgency.
  • “I recognized immediately, like, I think I was a lot more logical than I thought I would be in that moment...That's an assassination. He is the target. He is the only target.” (05:07)
• Observations on crowd behavior: different from mass shootings because it was a targeted assassination, leading to confusion rather than dispersal.

Social Media & Rhetoric After the Event

• Hunter and others observe shockingly callous online reactions—on both the left and right.
  • Left-wing celebrators of the killing: “I saw someone post, like, proud to be a UVU alum today...Why am I gonna be sad? I’m glad he’s in the grave.” (09:26)
  • Right-wing escalation: “Libs of TikTok said, this is war. So it was like the spawn point for a larger domestic conflict that’s gonna be apparently spearheaded by the left.” (11:13)
• Hunter’s conflicted feelings about the left: pride in activism, distress over dehumanizing rhetoric and celebratory cruelty.

The Human Cost of Political Violence

• Both Hunter and others remind listeners: Kirk was a person with a family, and no one deserves assassination.
  • “That's a human being, that's a father of two children...both of those can fully coexist at the same time.” (12:21)
  • “Outside of the TikToks and Instagram Reels...his kids are going to bed tonight without a father, and his wife is going to bed without a husband.” (13:18)

On Whether the Killing Changes Anything

• Debate among guests on whether Kirk’s murder will spark broader conflict or merely fan existing flames of polarization.
  • “Do you think this could be a powder keg moment that starts...a major civil dispute?” (20:58)
  • “Probably nothing more than what we've seen since 2020...the only time we're going to have real civil disputes is when we are starving.” (21:07–21:54)
• A broader sense that political violence, disconnection, and internet dehumanization have made such tragedies feel both shocking and somehow inevitable.

The “Sin of Certainty” and Complex Solutions

• Hunter resists easy answers and questions conventional wisdom around gun reform, mental health, and policing.
  • “I don’t know if the answer is we should just be okay with knowing that there are completely antisocial people who walk amongst us...” (30:23)
  • “I get frustrated with...this sin of certainty.” (31:35)

Conversation, Discourse, and Hope

• Despite tragedy, Hunter insists debate and discussion matter, recalling his own political evolution and cautioning against absolutism.
  • “I do believe that people can go on the same journey that I went on...and Charlie did, too, just in the opposite direction.” (39:01)
  • “I want to make sure that it’s clear that I disagree with him, but also, holy shit, that’s a person.” (41:09)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Hunter on the Moment of the Shooting:
  “I went down pretty immediately, and everyone near me...dropped down with me...I think I was a lot more logical than I thought I would be...That's an assassination. He is the target.” (05:07)
• Hunter on Political Rhetoric Online:
  “I posted it feeling so confident, and 90% of the comments were about how fat she was. And I really felt like, what am I contributing to in this culture?”
  (06:53)
• Sympathetic Observer on the Human Impact:
  “Nobody deserves to be shot and killed. Nobody. Doesn’t matter if they’re Democratic Party, Republic Party. Does not matter. Nobody deserves to be shot and killed in front of their family. No one.”
  (10:20)
• Hunter on Dehumanization:
  "I don't know why it's so hard to not hold that in one hand. And in the other hand, hold. That's a human being..." (12:21)
• Hunter on Political Discourse:
  "Conversation isn’t everything...But, like, Charlie was certainly onto something there that, like, conversation does fuel quite a bit of fuel. Something that I think we’ve...maybe discarded."
  (19:06)
• Community Leader:
  "Conflict is inevitable, but contention is a choice...respectful and civil dialogue in social, civic, and religious circles is not just going to help us from the outside in, but from the inside out." (28:39)
• Hunter's Emotional Collapse:
  "I feel like an emotionally put together person, but, like, I don't...I don't think, I don't think that this is a thing that anyone can do. And then the nurse is like, that's not what that is. And I'm like, okay, she's fine."
  (36:02–37:21)
• Hunter Reflecting on Change:
  "I do believe, like, a thousand straws on a camel's back...if they hear enough conversations and things that influence them, they will get pulled in a direction. I used to be extremely conservative."
  (38:00)
• On Gun Laws and Political Certainty:
  "As much as I love to talk about mandatory buybacks...have you met some of these Americans? Like, you are asking for a Waco, Texas, in every county in America."
  (33:13)
  “I think I get frustrated with. With this sin of certainty.” (31:35)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:21 – Hunter introduces his background and why he challenges Charlie Kirk.
• 02:19–03:02 – Description of the event’s atmosphere and ideological divides.
• 03:36–05:07 – Details of Hunter’s debate with Kirk and the moment of the assassination.
• 06:53 – Online reactions and disappointment with cultural tone.
• 10:20–10:45 – Sympathetic Observer’s statement on the sanctity of life.
• 12:21–13:18 – Hunter and Observer reflect on Kirk’s humanity and the impact on his family.
• 19:06 – Conversation about the value of political discourse.
• 21:07–21:54 – Analysis on likelihood of a larger civil conflict.
• 28:39–29:08 – Community Leader offers a perspective on choosing civil dialogue and healing.
• 31:35 – "Sin of certainty" as a warning about simplistic policy fixes.
• 36:02–37:21 – Hunter describes his emotional breakdown after the event.
• 38:00–39:01 – Hunter reflects on the potential for personal and social change through dialogue.
• 41:09 – Emphasizing disagreement without dehumanization.

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Episode Tone and Final Thoughts

The episode is somber, raw, and deeply reflective, capturing a unique, deeply personal vantage on an American tragedy. The speakers balance sharp political disagreement with empathy and a common yearning for less violence and more honest conversation. Throughout, Andrew Callaghan guides with a steady, open tone—allowing complexity and conflicting emotions to surface, while never losing sight of the human loss at the episode’s core.

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For listeners and non-listeners alike, this episode is an essential snapshot of political America at a crossroads: full of anger, confusion, and loss—yet also of voices still hoping dialogue can prevail over violence.

Transcript

[Hunter]

So my name is Hunter. I was debating. I was in the middle of debating Charlie Kirk in the middle of the assassination at Utah Valley University. Do you know how many mass shooters there have been in America over the.

[Conservative Commentator]

Last 10 years, counting or not counting gang violence?

[Hunter]

Great.

[Interviewer]

What brought you to the event that day?

[Hunter]

I make videos on Charlie Kirk, and I made this video about the statistical analysis on trans shooters. And sort of the point that I was trying to make was that they are. It's sort of a statistical outlier, that they're extremely underrepresented when it comes to how peaceful they are. Obviously, that question pretty ironic, given when it was given. Yeah. So I mostly came in there because Charlie's very open about having some sort of dialogue or some sort of conversation that, you know, he believes in engaging. And I'm. I'm pretty on the record of how much I disagree with him, but I do definitely respect how much he's willing to platform voices to ensure that, you know, at least some semblance of a good conversation can come out of it.

[Interviewer]

And as far as this, like, statistical anomaly thing when it comes to trans shooters, is that in response to the way that him and Turning Point were framing that as, like, a big issue?

[Hunter]

So it was about three weeks ago, there was a trans shooter at a Catholic church. Charlie made a bunch of tweets, basically saying, like, when are we gonna start noticing that this is a trend? And I'm like, okay, well, there's a. I'm getting my math degree at uvu. That was my university. And I was like, there's an answer to that. There's. You know, we can determine if there's some sort of outliers. We can use P values, things like that. And I was like, according to the data, it really doesn't pan out that there is a trend here at all. So I kind of made a video calling him out a little bit and saying, hey, I want to come debate you. I want to come do it. And a lot of people were kind of encouraging me, so I kind of wanted to come and have my. I guess my little audience see that.

[Interviewer]

How was the energy whenever you arrived to the event?

[Hunter]

Very conservative, for sure. Everyone was very energetic, chanting Trump, chanting usa, get comfortable.

[Conservative Commentator]

Bring the best libs that Utah has to offer.

[Hunter]

There was a line of liberals on the rooftop who were holding, like, pride flags, and I think some, like, Palestine flags and things like that. And, you know, there was a little bit of taunting back and forth, but not very out of hand. Most of the debaters were either like, asking questions like, who's better, LeBron or Jordan? Or, like, some, like, theological debates about distinctions between, like, Mormonism and. And Christians.

[Conservative Commentator]

Jesus Christ was a real person. He lived a perfect life. He was crucified, died, and rose on the third day. And he is Lord and God over all.

[Hunter]

Christ is king. But also, the event lasted, I want to say, 20 minutes maybe. Like, I really didn't get a good finger on the pulse on what an event would really look like, because, I mean, I showed up fairly early. I was the second person to speak there. So, like, you know, the first person was maybe 10 minutes, and I maybe got, like, less than a minute in.

[Interviewer]

So could you give us kind of a recap of how that conversation with Charlie went?

[Hunter]

Sure, yeah. This is working. Hey, Charlie. Hey. Hopefully, we're gonna have a little bit more disagreement. So it was. I came in and I said, hey, there was a shooting that happened maybe a few weeks ago in Minneapolis. And ever since then, about three weeks later, the Trump DOJ said that we should start talking about revoking gun rights for transgender Americans. Do you think. Is that you agree with this? Is that a fair assessment or something like that? And he said, yes. And then I said, so do you know how many transgender Americans have been mass shooters over the last 10 years?

[Sympathetic Observer]

Too many.

[Hunter]

And I said, there's five. And I said, do you know how many shootings there have been? I think maybe my memory's a little hazy. I haven't rewatched the videos, honestly, but it was something like this, which I know I knew the answer. It was a little under 6,000. He said something like, we need to account for gang violence. And I think I was. Like I said, I was in the middle of saying, great. Did you run a statistical analysis on that? Right. Like, essentially saying, you have the burden of proof. And I think I was in the middle of saying that when he got shot. Do you know how many mass shooters there have been in America over the.

[Conservative Commentator]

Last 10 years, counting or not counting gang violence?

[Hunter]

Great. I went down pretty immediately, and everyone near me, everyone in the rest of my line, who I'd been talking to for the last few hours, dropped down with me. I remember I have a brother who was in a school shooter who was in a school shooting. And I was talking about the distinction between these. That, like, for me, it was. There wasn't as much fear as I think I would expect, because I recognized immediately, like, I think I was a lot more logical than I thought I would be in that moment where I was like, that's an assassination. He is the target. He is the only target. I am freaked out, but I know that I'm okay. Whatever. It definitely became chaotic. My wife was in the crowd. I tried reaching her. Took me like, 20, 30 minutes. Just a lot of chaos as, like, I sort of shifted in a weird place. Then I had to wrap back around, and I couldn't find her. And our phones weren't really working, and I was. It was bombarded by texts, and I don't know. So it was very chaotic, and it took a while to really orient myself, but it was a strange environment because people were kind of milling around afterward. I think a lot of people had this similar idea that it's like, this is different. Assassination is very different from a mass shooting, where a mass shooting, you disperse, right? Everyone's a target. But when it comes to an assassination, it's everyone just sort of was there. And I heard it. I heard a number of people say, like, so much for the tolerant left, right? Like, the two or three people said that as they. As they walked by.

[Interviewer]

And what do you think about that assessment?

[Hunter]

I. I made this video a little while ago. I actually, I've been following. Sounds crazy. I've been following Charlie Kirk for a little while. I went to Tampa, Florida, for one of his events. I. I remember I was just basically interviewing some of these. Some of his followers, and he. I found this. I found this girl, and she seems so young and bright. Ignorant, for sure. Dumb. I would probably say. I'm like. I'll be honest. Dumb. But I. I was just asking her questions, and I started bringing up. I'm like, oh, liberals would say. And then I would give my argument, right? You know, someone can go get, like, a whole surgery done, you know, without parent approval. It's like, how is that even happening? How is. How are they going to the doctor's appointments without the parents there? And then, like, I know I've seen parents on social media where they're like, oh, I haven't identified my kid yet. And it scares me because I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, they're gonna grow up thinking that they don't know what they are, or, like, that they could change, transition into something else. And. But would it. Wouldn't that be transitioning with parent approval? Yeah, that's what I'm like, saying, like, to take away. Does that make sense? But if they have parent approval, it sounds like you're talking about parents who give approval that they should be trans. She was like, that's such an Interesting thing. I've never thought of that. Right. She gave. And I was like, I'm so, like. I was like, cut. That's so perfect. I'm so glad I. I captured that. That, like, the conservative person was so clearly just kind of needed to hear the right thing and maybe got bumped in the right direction. And I posted it feeling so confident, and 90% of the comments were about how fat she was. And I really felt like, like, what am I contributing to in this culture? And, like, in some ways, I'm extremely. I'm extremely proud of the left. I'm extremely proud of the people that I've. I've. I've met organizing and. And being in these conversations. And I don't want it to. I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water. And I would also say that the right definitely has its issue with violence. Right? We talk about political violence, like, you know, Gretchen Whitmer, Josh Shapiro, Paul Pelosi. You know, I could go on and on, but, like, I am startled very often by how quick people are to grab onto, like, righteous violence. And I don't know, I understand his assessment when he says so much for the tolerant left. Like, that's kind of, in some ways, a lot of things that I've seen.

[Interviewer]

Was there something you saw in particular that you were like, man, that's too far.

[Hunter]

Yeah, yeah, about Charlie or. I mean, yeah, I saw someone post, like, proud to be a UVU alum today. And, like, it's also people in my hallways, right, who are just maybe a little bit terminally online. But, like, I don't know. I've for sure seen some. Why am I gonna be sad? I'm glad he's in the grave. A lot of comments like that. Nah, real shit, though. How do we know that Charlie Kirk didn't die of a fentanyl overdose? You feel me? Like, we gotta wait on the toxicology reports come out caus. Okay, we might have saw a gunshot and shit, but we also saw somebody put their knee on somebody else's neck. And we saw other people still say that person died of sudden overdose.

[Interviewer]

What was some of the rhetoric you saw online that was, like, particularly insane to see? What kind of things were these hands seeing?

[Sympathetic Observer]

People in comments on, like, big news pages that are like, yeah, well, anyways, what's for dinner? Or, well, this is karma. Like, this was deserved. Nobody deserves to be shot and killed. Nobody. Doesn't matter if they're Democratic Party, Republic Party. Does not matter. Nobody deserves to be shot and killed. In front of their family. No one.

[Interviewer]

How do we. How do we get to this point.

[Hunter]

Where it's so divided we can't even look at the other party? You know, so it's disappointing, you know, shocking.

[Interviewer]

So you monitored the online discourse in the immediate aftermath of the shooting?

[Hunter]

First few hours, I, for sure, that's enough time Democrats own what happened today, bro.

[Interviewer]

I'd be so pressed if this guy shot me.

[Hunter]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So you kind of saw. I saw like two different narratives on the right. They were like, all right, this is the turning point for the left. Like, they have officially gone haywire. I think Alex Jones and Owen Schroyer said we are all Charlie Kirk.

[Hunter]

And.

[Interviewer]

And I think libs of TikTok said, this is war. So it was like the spawn point for a larger domestic conflict that's gonna be apparently spearheaded by the left. Then there was a lot of people that I saw celebrating the death saying this is what he deserves for his rhetoric about Gaza and immigration. And they pointed to some of his quotes where he. I think one quote said it was something like, I'm willing to accept gun violence and gun deaths as a natural byproduct of the freedoms that we have with our second Amendment. And there was just a couple different things where people making it seem like this was a symbolic victory for the left. Is that kind of what you're talking about?

[Hunter]

Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty adamant and I don't shy away from how much I dislike the things that Charlie says.

[Conservative Commentator]

If I see a black pilot, I'm gonna be like, boy, I hope he's qualified. If I'm dealing with somebody in customer service who's a moronic black woman, I wonder, is she there because of her excellence?

[Hunter]

I disagree with him on a thousand different fronts. And I feel like, I don't know why it's so hard to not hold that in one hand. And in the other hand, hold. That's a human being, that's a father of two children. Right. Like that. That both of those can fully coexist at the same time. And in some ways, I have a lot of respect for Charlie Kirk for being so open to debate, but for being such an incredible organizer. Like, I think as someone who's interested in political organization, that's. That's something that's. I. I've always found really admirable about him. But, like, he's about my age. He's got a one year old boy. I've got a one year old boy. I've got. You know, we're about the same height. And like, I just, I think about how that boy is not going to have any memories of his dad. And that, that to me is like, like, that's, that's everything that's. I did. That's.

[Sympathetic Observer]

They don't understand that outside of the TikToks and Instagram Reels that they see of him disagreeing with what they believe is a father of two kids and a son of a mother, that their kids are going to bed tonight, his kids are going to bed tonight without a father, and his wife is going to bed without a husband. And that to me is just, it's sickening. It's sickening to see that this is really what it's come to and people really think that, like, this is what they have to do to get a point across.

[Interviewer]

Additionally, I mean, the conditions that created Charlie Kirk's views are still existent.

[Hunter]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

The undercurrents that led to all of the opinions you disagree with and that the left disagrees with. You know, it's. You can eliminate Charlie Kirk, you know, but it doesn't take away the rhetoric that led to Charlie Kirk.

[Hunter]

I think, I think that's what's so irritating about this. Like, on the one hand, this is evil, this is tragic. This shouldn't have happened. On the secondary hand, if you're not even convinced by that first argument, it's also counterproductive. That doesn't even do anything. He's a conservative commentator. He doesn't even have. Like Trump. Trump has been given every opportunity right now to crack down on the violent left.

[Interviewer]

For years, those on the radical left.

[Hunter]

Have compared wonderful Americans like Charlie to.

[Interviewer]

Nazis and the world's worst mass murderers and criminals. This kind of rhetoric is directly responsible.

[Hunter]

For the terrorism that we're seeing in our country today. And that, like, my whole point about making a video about how nonviolent we are only can exist if we stay non violent. It just doesn't solve anything either. Like, I don't, I don't understand how you walk away from that. Like, what did you solve at all? Everyone is now more angry and justified in their anger, or at least more so than before. And I just, I don't know, I get so angry at these wannabe activists, these assholes, these disturbing evil. I don't know.

[Interviewer]

I think that one of the key words is antisocial.

[Hunter]

Sure, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

And I'm not saying that, you know, I grew up around a bunch of violence, but I've seen shootings before.

[Hunter]

Yeah, I grew up.

[Interviewer]

I grew up, have lost people to Gun violence, whether it be in the street or from police, a few people in high school and pass that. So to me, it's something horrible universally should be recognized as a bad thing. But there's this weird kind of antisocial undercurrent undercurrent that I think is running through like early gen Z, like 18 to 22. I'm not sure if it was because they were socialized during COVID and they missed like a bunch of formative years, but the things that they're tweeting about this situation and just their dissociation to like the horrific violent imagery, to be able to watch something like that and be like, hell yeah, that's dope. That indicates some kind of antisocial, psychotic, sociopathic disorder to me.

[Hunter]

Sure. And like, whatever. When you're. When your belief basically ostracizes anyone who disagrees with you and you have no one left standing, it makes sense that you don't have a lot of connection. So maybe you lose that human value. I don't know if that makes sense.

[Interviewer]

Say one more time.

[Hunter]

Like, I think it's become very common now to cut off your parents or cut off your siblings if they say maybe the wrong thing or sort of come across things a little different. And you know, you, you cut these people off and then you go, you know, you're left standing and you're the only. You're an island. It makes sense that you're like, what is a father really?

[Interviewer]

And you guys are all like 18 to 22 range, right?

[Hunter]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Is he a pretty popular figure among your guys demographic?

[Hunter]

Yeah.

[Community Leader]

I mean, if you, if you go on, especially TikTok, he's everywhere. So it, even though it's someone I've never met, it's someone who I feel like I've been almost consuming his content for a long time. And so it's a familiar face that we're losing and it's. And he's someone that shares a lot of the same values that we share religiously and, and politically in a lot of ways. And so he was very devoted and you have to appreciate devotion because he was trying to build a better society for his family, his young family. And at the end of the day, people can have their opinions and people do. There's extremists on both sides. But this is really an opportunity for everyone to kind of mend and realize what happened and mourn before we go on and take a moment to realize what has happened and what we can do to prevent like just certain things.

[Hunter]

Like this in the future, it does sometimes feel like I am one of the few. Definitely not the only, but certainly maybe a minority of the left that really cares still about life or family or America. I don't know.

[Interviewer]

No, it's a good point you made. Like, these political divisions have infected people's family dynamics, and it's become more important than them. So you have. You hear it all the time. Especially if you're in, like, a hipster neighborhood. You hear someone be like, oh, my dad voted for Trump. He's such a piece of shit. I can't wait to chew him out at Thanksgiving, if they're even going. Whereas, you know, it's not saying you shouldn't have a political discussion with your dad.

[Hunter]

Yeah. Like, I'm honestly all for chewing out your dad if you disagree, like, I.

[Interviewer]

Don'T know, chew out your dad, but don't abandon your dad.

[Hunter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Especially if your dad's in, like, a Facebook QAnon hole. Try to figure out how he got there.

[Hunter]

Oh, for sure.

[Interviewer]

Maybe if you can give him enough love where you can pull him out.

[Hunter]

Yeah, no, 100%. And I just. I do maybe genuinely feel and, like, whatever, conversation isn't everything. Right. There's a lot more that comes to politics than just conversation. But, like, Charlie was certainly onto something there that, like, conversation does fuel quite a bit of fuel. Something that I think we've, I don't know, maybe discarded.

[Interviewer]

Do you think this is a legitimate turning point for discourse in America, or do you think this is something that's just going to be remembered more as, like, an individual tragedy?

[Sympathetic Observer]

I really feel like it could go either way. I feel like if we're lucky, we can just kind of memorialize it and move on and be better from it. But I definitely have a pretty sick feeling that there's a lot of bad repercussions that are gonna happen because of this.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I think on both sides, too, you make a murder of somebody, I mean, people would do a lot to avenge them.

[Hunter]

Exactly.

[Sympathetic Observer]

Especially the entire Republican side is, of course, not happy and nobody should be happy. And the people that are have something wrong with them. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Really.

[Hunter]

Do you know Charlie Kirk? Yeah, I do. What do you think of what happened to him? You know, sometimes revenge, the dish best are cold. I hate to. He died in a world that he wanted.

[Interviewer]

Mother fucking animals.

[Hunter]

You liberal, progressive, deranged fucking animals. You are so hateful in your hearts. Worse things have happened to people. You know, if you've turned a blind.

[Interviewer]

Eye, you want us to erase the confederacy you want us to erase all.

[Hunter]

These different things, but why should I.

[Interviewer]

Have more sympathy for someone that you.

[Hunter]

Clearly you don't know pain. Really? This is the worst thing you could think of? You don't understand what other people have gone through.

[Interviewer]

Do you think this could be a powder keg moment that starts like an internal major civil dispute between right and left?

[Political Analyst]

Probably nothing more than what we've seen since 2020.

[Interviewer]

Same.

[Political Analyst]

Yeah, same different story. I mean I don't think anything like, you know, we had the George Floyd, we had the January six. I don't think it's going to be anything more than that. Yet here's the only, the only time we're going to have real civil disputes is when we are starving. You know, when we have lose access to clean water, when we lose access to electricity. You know, that's when things change. But right now we're comfortable, right?

[Hunter]

Yeah.

[Political Analyst]

And that's ultimately. This is gonna make people upset, you know, sure. It is gonna create more attention between the left and the right. However, it's unfortunate that we even see in this two party democratic system anyways.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's a good point about basic necessities being met. Like people can talk a tough, tough game about civil war, but until people are like can't go to 7 11, they're not really gonna kill anybody. Yeah, no, no.

[Political Analyst]

Yeah. It's just not gonna happen. Cause like it basically has to get to the point where you have more to lose by not doing anything than doing something. Right. That's that, that's that, that's all. That's what's, that's what it's gonna take, you know.

[Interviewer]

Do you think that events like this will make people more scared to interact with their political opposition in a public forum?

[Hunter]

Sure. I mean obviously for sure. I was at the, I was at the, the. There was a protest in. Well, there were two protests. One in Provo and one in Salt Lake. It was the no Kings protest. And I went and my mom was so scared, she's like, do not go, why are you doing this? And I was like, I have people that I care about who are, you know, undocumented like this, this matters to me. And then there was a shooter at Salt Lake and someone got killed. This is what democracy looks like. In the middle of a no Kings.

[Interviewer]

Protest that brought thousands of demonstrators downt.

[Hunter]

Sudden gunfire stunned everyone. He fired several shots. The crowd dispersed. I got to cover and it's like, how can I really blame my mom, you know, Like I can't, I can't be frustrated at that inclination to. To be terrified, to go outside, to have some sort of discourse. Like, sometimes I think about it. I'm like, I know someone who's right. Who's right near the person who got shot at Salt Lake. I was right near Charlie Kirk. And my high school alma mater, the one that my brother went to, got shot while he was there. Like, it is crazy how many events I'm a part of, and I don't think I'm necessarily an anomaly for that. Like, and that's sort of. That's sort of the point of the video that I was trying to make was that when you have 6,000 data points of school of mass shootings that happen in America, you could pick anything that you want out of that. Like, that's. So that's an overwhelming amount of constant shootings that occur over and over and over and over again. And it's horrific that I was trying to point that out and. And Charlie died.

[Interviewer]

Did you. Did the gravity of that situation immediately sink in for you that you were the last person to talk to him?

[Hunter]

Took a while, for sure. I was driving away. I was driving away. My wife and her sister and her mom were on campus, and they found us, and they drove away. And she turned to me and she said, you know, you think you're gonna be on every news station in America tomorrow? And I was like. Like, I. I don't know if I realized it until right then that I was like, no, that was me. That was like, I don't know. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I'm like, dude, the f. Like, I read too many comments on. On some video about me that was like, dude, this guy's in on it. He was asking about shootings right when the shooting happened. Like, let's go get this guy.

[Interviewer]

I mean, every mass shooting where assassination is like a powder keg for conspiracy theories.

[Hunter]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Because everyone's paying attention. It's got all the. You know, there's an old Joseph Pulitzer quote that's if it bleeds, it leads. You know, and so everyone wants their own conspiracy. I've seen. I've seen people blame every single type of person in the world for totally.

[Political Analyst]

Let me tell you why I don't think it was a crazy leftist. Because there was hundreds of people there who had the same exact political views as Charlie Kirk. But they only killed one person. They only killed Charlie.

[Hunter]

If.

[Political Analyst]

If there was other people. Like, well, you see with, like, a lot of deranged, like, trans. These transgender shooters who've Been going around, they kill as many people as physically possible. This guy, whoever he was, had to leverage the vantage point to take out as many people as he could have. But no, he just took one person. It was a one and done and that was it. And that's why I don't believe it was someone who was a radical, like just a leftist radical acting upon his own. I think this was a professional job. Yeah, there is a tweet out there. I'm not sure who tweeted it. I, I could fact check it real quick. Who's talking about the Israeli government killing Charlie Kirk because he was having some second thoughts or something like that? I think that is a possibility.

[Conservative Commentator]

Jeffrey Epstein was not a financier. He was not a hedge fund manager. Jeffrey Epstein was a key player in a multi decade blackmail operation against the most powerful people on the planet, along.

[Political Analyst]

With Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson changing their views on Israel. However, Charlie Kirk received quite a bit of money from AIPAC to support Israeli interest in the United States.

[Conservative Commentator]

I've been to Israel twice. I love Israel. I love Israel, the place. I love Israel as it protects access to biblical archaeology.

[Political Analyst]

So hopefully, and it's not a good thing he's dead. I'm not going to say that, but hopefully he died because he came to his senses and did the right thing and put America's interest above Israel's, not the other way around.

[Interviewer]

What, what was the security situation on the ground there?

[Hunter]

Here's the thing. There was huge pros and cons, huge pro. A lot of security guards, a lot that were directing me in specific places. But the con is it was fully open, like anyone could wander in. And also there's rooftop access at uvu, which is like a. I don't know. I think that the shooter is suspected to be a sniper on one of the roofs. For some reason this, this makes people think that I'm in on it, that I was a mike or I was a. I don't even know what a mic is. I just, I Learned that term 2, 2 hours ago when I, I don't know. I think it's, it's like someone sort of. I don't know.

[Interviewer]

I can't say. Liberal.

[Hunter]

No, I don't know. It was like, it was like I was, I was shouting a call and.

[Interviewer]

I said, oh, like you had a code word.

[Hunter]

Yeah, like I had a code word and. Because I was talking about shooting. So they're like, that's, that's gotta be it. And I also said, I, I said great. Right after responding to him. And I think I was. I don't even know why I said great. I think I was just like, it's.

[Interviewer]

A high pressure sit situation.

[Hunter]

Yeah.

[Conservative Commentator]

Counting or not counting gang violence.

[Hunter]

Great. Well, I was like, maybe it was just like, let me think about this.

[Interviewer]

It's like being on stage during a talent show when you're.

[Hunter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Like, think you're gonna kill it, but you don't know what's gonna happen.

[Hunter]

Yeah. And it's like, I try to be prepared for sure, but it's like stalling technique maybe. Or like, I mean, I knew what I was gonna say next. I was, whatever.

[Interviewer]

How do you think we can prevent things like this in the future?

[Community Leader]

Well, first of all, I. I'm a very respected leader in our community, said that conflict is inevitable, but contention is a choice, and we're helping ourselves when we choose to not be offended. So respectful and civil dialogue in social, civic, and religious circles is not just going to help us from the outside in, but from the inside out.

[Interviewer]

What do you think could have been done to prevent this situation?

[Hunter]

I don't know because I'm always so worried. I'm so. I'm such a math nerd sometimes that I'm like, well, this was still a statistical outlier. Like, and maybe it was. Maybe I like, I think everyone always has these answers, but it's also like, we have the least amount of violence than we have ever had in the history of Earth. Right now. We. We are probably doing something right. Three, two, three hundred years ago, every country was at work constantly until, like, World War II, where we're like, let's freeze this. We gotta just chill the out. And like, whatever. It's not perfect by any means. There's absolutely more work we can be. We can be doing. But, like, everyone who has all these answers, I mean, Charlie's answer was like, let's just. Let's bring back up mental asylums. I'm like, I don't know if that worked in the 1800s. Like, I think you're scrambling justly as much as we are. Like, I don't. And I'm not trying to pretend like I have these answers on how to fix all this. Maybe it is that there are insane people. There was the. I'm sure you know about this. The stabbing of. That Charlie was talking about a lot. That was his last tweet. It was the. The stabbing of someone on a. On the.

[Interviewer]

Was on the light rail in Charlotte.

[Hunter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're like, dude, they should have locked him Up. And then you look at his priors. He's like, okay, well, he was in jail for, like, seven years. We've just, like, thrown away the key. Like, some of these priors are like, he stole some things. Should we just lock him up then? How do we prepare? Like, I. Like, I don't know if the answer is we should just be okay with knowing that there are completely antisocial people who walk amongst us and might lash out at any moment. But I don't. I don't know what we should be doing about that. And I haven't seen a compelling answer.

[Interviewer]

I mean, one thing that I've heard is, like, more readily available psychiatric services.

[Hunter]

Sure.

[Interviewer]

Gun reform.

[Hunter]

Sure.

[Interviewer]

Mass buybacks.

[Hunter]

Yeah, yeah. I'm in favor of all of those things. But I also, like. I also know in my ideal world where I have all of the policies, I'm sure that a stabbing could happen. Like, maybe that's just the world that we have to live in. But also, that seems like an extremely. That doesn't sound like the right answer either. Right. So. I don't know. I don't. I think I get frustrated with. With this sin of certainty.

[Interviewer]

As in, like, I have the solution. If we do this, things like this won't happen again.

[Hunter]

I watched it, like, in a movie recently. I just really like that term, the sin of certainty. That sounds cool. Yeah, it was conclave. It was a pretty good movie.

[Interviewer]

Oh, yeah.

[Hunter]

Yeah. I just. I really. I. I don't know. And, like, whatever. I respect a lot of Charlie. I'm. I'm so sad. He was a very certain person, and I disagreed with that. I think that we can move forward a little bit more uncertain.

[Conservative Commentator]

I think we should have less gun laws, not more. I know this. People disagree with this. I even think that we should bring back, you know, public executions on certain people. No, but think about it. I think that. And you guys should laugh. It should be public. It should be quick. It should be televised, by the way. You could sell.

[Hunter]

You could force the government to watch it.

[Conservative Commentator]

You could have, like, brought to you by Coca Cola.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I definitely saw a lot of his enemies. His political opponents instantly spun it into an issue of gun reform, which I think, in theory sounds cool. But, I mean, we have 380 million Americans. I think we have more than 400 million guns already in civilian hands. So this whole idea of even reforming that guns are here to stay, and there's counties and states that are always going to have guns available at gun shows and. And pawn shops and gas stations and Walmarts and flea markets. And that's just the truth. You can't walk back something that's so deeply embedded into our culture. So that's a very sin of certainty thing where it's like, oh, there's a big shooting, gun reform, let's advocate for it. It's like, what? Yeah, the guns are already here.

[Hunter]

Right.

[Interviewer]

You can reflect.

[Hunter]

As much as I love to talk about mandatory buybacks, I think that that sounds really good. And it worked for a lot of countries. But also it's like, dude, have you met some of these Americans? Like, you are asking for a Waco, Texas, in every county in America.

[Interviewer]

Totally.

[Hunter]

Like, see, with our ars, we're citizens.

[Interviewer]

Without them, we'll be slaves.

[Hunter]

They're not assault weapons, they're sporting weapons. It's necessary to protect my family from tranical government.

[Interviewer]

Why do you think there are so many mass shootings?

[Hunter]

Because that's what's on the agenda for the left. I don't know. Not like I have a better answer. Right. Like, I do think that having more guns than Americans in America is probably going to be. We're going to be a little bit more prone to gun violence and mass shootings, and that's terrifying. But also, I don't know what the answer is. And, like, I think that people just have these easy answers without thinking of the, like, larger implication. Like, for example, someone said recently, like, I was talking to this guy, this, this really good friend of mine, I don't want to talk him too hard, but he was like. He was like, yeah, the answer is pretty simple. Just like, don't give guns to mentally unwell people. And I'm like, okay, gotcha. If someone has a gun, then they're not going to seek psychiatric help because the moment they get diagnosed with anything, they'll take away their guns. So you are discouraging people from seeking help. And he was like, well, that's not what I meant. I'm like, I know that's not what you meant. Right. Like, I get that. But also, these things are hard. And I don't, I don't know what the answer is.

[Interviewer]

Very often there's a big problem too, where everybody wants to be right. Especially when you have reactionaries and commentators and ideologues with their own social media platforms. And so they're rushing to have the hottest take.

[Hunter]

Sure.

[Interviewer]

And I saw it in a little micro way, like whenever I dropped the Hunter Biden interview, it was just like, conservative media, including Charlie Kirk and the President of El Salvador and Bill O'Reilly and all these people that seemed larger than life to me at the time were moving in lockstep. Like, one person sets the narrative. He's using the F word a bunch and he's talking about crack, and they all follow that thing. And I saw it happen so fast with Charlie, and it just felt so selfish to me. As a news consumer, I'm just like, why is everyone rushing to announce this as fast as possible and figure out how to make this situation serve their agenda? I took a great court in college called the sociology of disaster. And a similar thing happens during natural disasters, Katrina, Hurricane Helene. When something bad happens, different political agendas latch onto certain details of it and they use it to run their own little mini news cycle. And I feel like you're, you'll kind of be able to cut through that for people because you're just a guy who was there.

[Hunter]

True.

[Interviewer]

And so are you doing okay?

[Hunter]

I don't know. I remember, like, thinking. I remember thinking walking away from that, like, dude, that's a, that's a memory that I'm never going to Forget that happened 10 seconds ago. Like, I remember thinking that walking away, I'm like, that's a thing that I cannot forget. And that's a, it's a very weirdly, like, prescient thing to be thinking about as I'm trying to find my wife in the crowd of people. But, like, I was, I was thinking that and it was, it was hard. Like, I was definitely trying to, like, I was, I was keeping it in and, and we got a call from the, from the hospital that we had to go see my daughter. Like, two seconds after we, we were like, we were, we were sitting in traffic as everyone was piled in. It's like, oh, now we gotta go to the hospital. And I get there and I misread the charts and I think that she's doing a lot poorly than she is. And I'm like, I, like, break down in the hospital. I'm like, that is, I don't think, I don't, I don't think that I can handle the day. Like, I gen. Like, I feel like an emotionally put together person, but, like, I don't, I don't, I don't think, I don't think that this is a thing that anyone can do. And then the nurse is like, that's not what that is. And I'm like, okay, she's fine.

[Interviewer]

I'm okay.

[Hunter]

Okay. But, like, I, like, I definitely feel the preciousness of life today. Just like one person with a bad idea and your existence is out. And that's a lot to feel, and I felt it particularly strongly today.

[Interviewer]

Do you think a lot of things that Charlie has said would have created the desire for someone to want to kill him?

[Hunter]

Of course. I can understand being frustrated with Charlie Kirk. I am all the time. I think that he spreads harmful. He spread harmful rhetoric. And I don't know if I'm gonna shy away from that. My record is pretty clear on that. Like, I. But, like, I do believe in the same things that he believed in in a very narrow context, which is. I think that having conversations is the best way path forward. Genuinely. Like, I don't. I don't know why we gave up on this idea. Like, I think people notice that debates, you know, they're not just, like, gonna change their mind as soon as the debate ends. I'm like, okay, but. But I do believe, like, a thousand straws on a camel's back. Like, at some point, if they hear enough conversations and things that influence them, they will get pulled in a direction. I used to be extremely conservative.

[Interviewer]

For real?

[Hunter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I grew up Mormon. I grew up in U. Well, I didn't grow up in Utah. I grew up in California, actually. With. Yeah, grew up in la. But I moved here because I wanted to go to byu. I really believed in the Mormon Church. And then I just kind of strayed away from it. But I was hardcore Romney fan.

[Interviewer]

Oh, because he's a Mormon?

[Hunter]

Yes. There's a loyal. There's a loyal following here. And I was for sure part of that. And then I was like, let me see if there's any other ideas. And I was like. And I saw this article that was like, a response to Ben Shapiro's attacks on transgender people. And it was like, here, whatever. Like, it detailed a lot of these thoughts. I'm like, I didn't know that. I genuinely thought they looked down and they went, oh, that's not a penis, that's a vagina. And then, like, had that psychosis in their head and then move forward with their lives. And, like, that's genuinely what I thought. I'm like, well, if that's the case, these people are psychotic and maybe they should be in mental hospitals. And then I was like, oh, that's actually not how they interact in the. With the world at all. They're actually pretty coherent thoughts and make a lot of sense. And I just needed to hear their perspective. And as soon as I heard, I'm like, that's a confusing for me, maybe, but, like, way more Reasonable than I thought it would be. And, like, I don't know. I definitely. I. Like, I remember a lot of those trickle points where I started shifting more left. And I. I do believe that people can go on the same journey that I went on. And Charlie did, too, just in the opposite direction. And I respect. I respect the hell out of him for that. For really. I mean, that was his goal.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I mean, I kind of always thought it's good to have conversations, but for some of that college campus content, I feel like they were just pulling up to dunk on a bunch of.

[Hunter]

I'm not trying to disagree with that.

[Interviewer]

First social justice theory class.

[Hunter]

Exactly. So he can be like, I 100% hear you.

[Interviewer]

And, like, how much fentanyl was in George Floyd's blood when he died?

[Hunter]

100%. 100%. And, like, yes, there is for sure. I was very critical of the fact that he would just debate college kids who were freshmen at 19. Like, come on. There are better competent things out here. I don't know if I. I don't know if I told you this. I was actually. I was booked to be on Jubilee to debate him Charlie Kirk in two weeks from today. And I want to make sure that it's clear that I disagree with him, but also, holy shit, that's a person. And I. I don't know, like.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, no, I hear you. I think that this came across pretty clear.

[Hunter]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

It's a bummer you didn't get to do Jubilee. I just did 20 v. 1.

[Hunter]

You were the one?

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Oh. It was like, me versus 20 conspiracy theorists. And I don't know if they thought I was. I don't know if it's gonna come out, because I think they thought I was some kind of, like, misinformation watchdog. So they got me with all these, like, alien conspiracy theorists. I was like, sounds tight. And they pulled me aside, and they were like, you need to push back. I was like, why?

[Hunter]

It's so not you. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

They're like, can you just offer some counterpoints? I'm like, bro, I want the Earth to be flat. It sounds better. You know, that means God's real. There's a firmament, you know? So I. I really don't think it's ever gonna come out, dude.

[Hunter]

So funny.

[Interviewer]

I was just vibing with everyone by the end. It was, like, a month ago.

[Hunter]

Oh, okay.

[Interviewer]

I don't know how long their editing process is, but they were pissed at me by the end.

[Hunter]

It's so funny. I had some people. Yeah. I I knew. Yeah, it was about a month. Well, I think I knew someone was on Jubilee and they were saying that, like, they got emails about when it would come out, and if you haven't gotten that, it's probably not coming out, so.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Hunter]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I guess we'll see. Dude, I know. I think you did a great job, man. Thanks for the interview.

[Hunter]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Interviewer]

Shout out to God. And shout out to you guys, man. Thank you for the interview. Appreciate you guys for your time. Our show is called Channel 5, if you want to check it out. Yeah. Have a good one, y'.

[Hunter]

All.

[Interviewer]

Thank you, guys.

[Hunter]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That 22 year old Tyler Robinson from Washington County, Utah, is now under arrest in the Utah County Jail for the assassination of Charlie Kirk.