5CAST w/ Andrew Callaghan
Episode: The Last Person to Debate Charlie Kirk (Exclusive Interview)
Date: September 13, 2025

Episode Overview

This intense, emotional episode of 5CAST with Andrew Callaghan delivers a firsthand account from "Hunter," a math student who was the last person to debate conservative commentator Charlie Kirk right before Kirk was assassinated at Utah Valley University. The conversation unpacks Hunter’s motivations for attending, the nature of his debate with Kirk, the chaotic aftermath of the shooting, and a raw discussion about political violence, social media reaction, and the future of discourse in America. The episode also places the event within the larger context of political polarization and explores the personal toll and broader implications of such tragedies.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Hunter’s Background and Motivation

• Hunter is a university math student who debates Charlie Kirk online, especially challenging narratives about transgender people and violence.
  • “I make videos on Charlie Kirk...the point that I was trying to make was that they are...a statistical outlier, that they're extremely underrepresented when it comes to how peaceful they are.” (00:21)
• Motivated to attend to directly confront Kirk on what he saw as misleading statistics and to engage a conservative audience openly platforming disagreement.

The Event Atmosphere

• The event was conservative-leaning, lively, and had visible ideological divides (flags, chants, rooftop protestors), but remained mostly civil pre-shooting.
  • “Everyone was very energetic, chanting Trump, chanting USA...there was a line of liberals on the rooftop...pride flags, and some Palestine flags.” (02:19, 02:33)
• Debates ranged from trivial (“LeBron or Jordan?”) to theological.

The Last Debate with Charlie Kirk

• Hunter confronts Kirk with statistical questions about trans individuals and gun violence, challenging recent claims about a supposed trend.
• As the debate is unfolding, the assassination occurs.
  • “Do you know how many transgender Americans have been mass shooters over the last 10 years?...There’s five...do you know how many shootings there have been?...a little under 6,000...I was in the middle of saying that when he got shot.” (03:36–05:04)

Chaos and Personal Reactions to the Assassination

• Immediate confusion and fear; Hunter and crowd duck for cover. Hunter's wife is in the crowd, adding personal urgency.
  • “I recognized immediately, like, I think I was a lot more logical than I thought I would be in that moment...That's an assassination. He is the target. He is the only target.” (05:07)
• Observations on crowd behavior: different from mass shootings because it was a targeted assassination, leading to confusion rather than dispersal.

Social Media & Rhetoric After the Event

• Hunter and others observe shockingly callous online reactions—on both the left and right.
  • Left-wing celebrators of the killing: “I saw someone post, like, proud to be a UVU alum today...Why am I gonna be sad? I’m glad he’s in the grave.” (09:26)
  • Right-wing escalation: “Libs of TikTok said, this is war. So it was like the spawn point for a larger domestic conflict that’s gonna be apparently spearheaded by the left.” (11:13)
• Hunter’s conflicted feelings about the left: pride in activism, distress over dehumanizing rhetoric and celebratory cruelty.

The Human Cost of Political Violence

• Both Hunter and others remind listeners: Kirk was a person with a family, and no one deserves assassination.
  • “That's a human being, that's a father of two children...both of those can fully coexist at the same time.” (12:21)
  • “Outside of the TikToks and Instagram Reels...his kids are going to bed tonight without a father, and his wife is going to bed without a husband.” (13:18)

On Whether the Killing Changes Anything

• Debate among guests on whether Kirk’s murder will spark broader conflict or merely fan existing flames of polarization.
  • “Do you think this could be a powder keg moment that starts...a major civil dispute?” (20:58)
  • “Probably nothing more than what we've seen since 2020...the only time we're going to have real civil disputes is when we are starving.” (21:07–21:54)
• A broader sense that political violence, disconnection, and internet dehumanization have made such tragedies feel both shocking and somehow inevitable.

The “Sin of Certainty” and Complex Solutions

• Hunter resists easy answers and questions conventional wisdom around gun reform, mental health, and policing.
  • “I don’t know if the answer is we should just be okay with knowing that there are completely antisocial people who walk amongst us...” (30:23)
  • “I get frustrated with...this sin of certainty.” (31:35)

Conversation, Discourse, and Hope

• Despite tragedy, Hunter insists debate and discussion matter, recalling his own political evolution and cautioning against absolutism.
  • “I do believe that people can go on the same journey that I went on...and Charlie did, too, just in the opposite direction.” (39:01)
  • “I want to make sure that it’s clear that I disagree with him, but also, holy shit, that’s a person.” (41:09)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Hunter on the Moment of the Shooting:
  “I went down pretty immediately, and everyone near me...dropped down with me...I think I was a lot more logical than I thought I would be...That's an assassination. He is the target.” (05:07)
• Hunter on Political Rhetoric Online:
  “I posted it feeling so confident, and 90% of the comments were about how fat she was. And I really felt like, what am I contributing to in this culture?”
  (06:53)
• Sympathetic Observer on the Human Impact:
  “Nobody deserves to be shot and killed. Nobody. Doesn’t matter if they’re Democratic Party, Republic Party. Does not matter. Nobody deserves to be shot and killed in front of their family. No one.”
  (10:20)
• Hunter on Dehumanization:
  "I don't know why it's so hard to not hold that in one hand. And in the other hand, hold. That's a human being..." (12:21)
• Hunter on Political Discourse:
  "Conversation isn’t everything...But, like, Charlie was certainly onto something there that, like, conversation does fuel quite a bit of fuel. Something that I think we’ve...maybe discarded."
  (19:06)
• Community Leader:
  "Conflict is inevitable, but contention is a choice...respectful and civil dialogue in social, civic, and religious circles is not just going to help us from the outside in, but from the inside out." (28:39)
• Hunter's Emotional Collapse:
  "I feel like an emotionally put together person, but, like, I don't...I don't think, I don't think that this is a thing that anyone can do. And then the nurse is like, that's not what that is. And I'm like, okay, she's fine."
  (36:02–37:21)
• Hunter Reflecting on Change:
  "I do believe, like, a thousand straws on a camel's back...if they hear enough conversations and things that influence them, they will get pulled in a direction. I used to be extremely conservative."
  (38:00)
• On Gun Laws and Political Certainty:
  "As much as I love to talk about mandatory buybacks...have you met some of these Americans? Like, you are asking for a Waco, Texas, in every county in America."
  (33:13)
  “I think I get frustrated with. With this sin of certainty.” (31:35)

Important Timestamps

• 00:21 – Hunter introduces his background and why he challenges Charlie Kirk.
• 02:19–03:02 – Description of the event’s atmosphere and ideological divides.
• 03:36–05:07 – Details of Hunter’s debate with Kirk and the moment of the assassination.
• 06:53 – Online reactions and disappointment with cultural tone.
• 10:20–10:45 – Sympathetic Observer’s statement on the sanctity of life.
• 12:21–13:18 – Hunter and Observer reflect on Kirk’s humanity and the impact on his family.
• 19:06 – Conversation about the value of political discourse.
• 21:07–21:54 – Analysis on likelihood of a larger civil conflict.
• 28:39–29:08 – Community Leader offers a perspective on choosing civil dialogue and healing.
• 31:35 – "Sin of certainty" as a warning about simplistic policy fixes.
• 36:02–37:21 – Hunter describes his emotional breakdown after the event.
• 38:00–39:01 – Hunter reflects on the potential for personal and social change through dialogue.
• 41:09 – Emphasizing disagreement without dehumanization.

Episode Tone and Final Thoughts

The episode is somber, raw, and deeply reflective, capturing a unique, deeply personal vantage on an American tragedy. The speakers balance sharp political disagreement with empathy and a common yearning for less violence and more honest conversation. Throughout, Andrew Callaghan guides with a steady, open tone—allowing complexity and conflicting emotions to surface, while never losing sight of the human loss at the episode’s core.

For listeners and non-listeners alike, this episode is an essential snapshot of political America at a crossroads: full of anger, confusion, and loss—yet also of voices still hoping dialogue can prevail over violence.