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Lesley Stahl
There he is. Pope Leo XIV is known as deliberate and soft spoken. But the American Pope has become increasingly outspoken.
Pope Leo XIV
War is back in vogue against certain
Lesley Stahl
policies of the American President. How far will Pope Leo go? We were surprised by the candor of church leaders who know him.
Interviewer
What do you say to people in the pews who say, I don't want to hear politics from my priest?
Bill Whitaker
Thousands of trucking companies are racking up thousands of safety violations for poor maintenance and excessive driving hours, all while evading federal enforcement.
Daniel Sanchez (Truck Driver)
They'd have me go out and do anything to get the money, no matter what the risk.
Bill Whitaker
Tonight, the results of our eight month investigation into a scheme that may be putting all of us at risk on the road.
Scott Pelley
The ocean off Cape Town, South Africa used to be teeming with great white sharks. Each morning with a little luck, you could catch sight of them flying out of the water. But then they began to disappear. Tonight, a story that has all the hallmarks of a true crime series with plenty of twists and a surprise suspect. I mean, it is like something out of csi. It's like you're the detective.
Lesley Stahl
I'm Leslie Stahl.
Scott Pelley
I'm Scott Pelley.
Bill Whitaker
I'm Bill Whitaker.
Lesley Stahl
I'm Sharon Alfonsi.
John Wertheim
I'm John Wertheim.
Lesley Stahl
I'm Cecilia Vega. I'm Nora o'. Donnell.
Scott Pelley
I'm Anderson Cooper. Those stories and in our last minute, the CEO of Google helps us search for answers about a new American revolution. Tonight on 60 Minutes.
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Lesley Stahl
When President Donald Trump announced a ceasefire with Iran this past week, it came after a chorus of world leaders called for an end to the war. One of those voices belonged to Leo xiv, the first ever US Born Pope in the history of the Catholic Church. The 70 year old Pope was born Robert Prevost and grew up in Chicago. For many years he was known simply as Father Bob. Leo is measured, deliberate and soft spoken. But the American Pope has become increasingly outspoken against certain policies of the American President. So we asked three influential American cardinals who know him well why Pope Leo's church has emerged as a voice of moral opposition to the war in Iran. And the crackdown on immigration.
Pope Leo XIV
La pace sia contuti voi.
Lesley Stahl
Peace be with you. Those were the first words that Pope Leo uttered as the new leader of 1.4 billion Catholics worldwide. His selection was a surprise celebrated by many of the 53 million that make Catholicism the largest Christian denomination in the United States.
Interviewer
What do you think having an American pope has done for the Catholic Church here in the us?
Cardinal Joseph Tobin
I think it's put Chicago on the map.
John Wertheim
Finally. We're proud. We're proud that we produced a pope. Chicago can say that.
Lesley Stahl
The Archbishop of Chicago, Cardinal Blaise Cupich, as well as Cardinals Robert McElroy of Washington, D.C. and Joseph Tobin of Newark, New Jersey, agreed to their first ever joint interview. Their candor surprised us about the new pope and what they're hearing in the pews.
Cardinal Joseph Tobin
We're the three American cardinals that are actively serving dioceses right now, so we listen to a lot of people. It's part of the job description. And I think we're aware of the anxieties of people about the threats to peace at all different levels.
Interviewer
Would you like to see this first American pope be more outspoken on issues that he disagrees with?
Cardinal Joseph Tobin
He's the pastor of the world. He's not abundant. So the distinction is he's not going to pronounce on everything, but he's going to pronounce on what's important.
Pope Leo XIV
War is back in vogue.
Lesley Stahl
He started in January with a speech criticizing US military action in Venezuela. After that, the Vatican's ambassador in the US was called to the Pentagon for a meeting, which two church Officials described to 60 Minutes as unpleasant and contentious. Both the Pentagon and the Vatican have said since, in multiple statements, that it was routine and provided an opportunity for an exchange of ideas.
Interviewer
There he is.
Lesley Stahl
In March, we traveled to Italy and managed to ask Pope Leo a question about the war in Iran.
Interviewer
Holy Father, can I ask you what
Lesley Stahl
your hopes are for the Middle East?
Pope Leo XIV
I am praying for peace. I hope that ceasefire would be the most effective way to work together to find peace, for all parties, to respect all parties, and to come to a solution which is too many years and, you know, creating problems for everyone.
Bill Whitaker
So thank you.
Pope Leo XIV
Work for peace.
Lesley Stahl
Since our visit, the Pope's tone has sharpened. This past week, he issued a rare condemnation of President Trump's threat to destroy Iranian civilization. The Pope called it, quote, truly unacceptable. He also took the unusual step of issuing a call to action.
Pope Leo XIV
Contact the authorities, political leaders, congressmen, to ask them, tell them to work for peace and to reject war.
Cardinal Robert McElroy
Always.
Lesley Stahl
The Holy Father usually avoids calling out President Trump by name or any member of his administration. But in a Palm Sunday homily, he appeared to reference the the religious language Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, who is Christian but not Catholic, often uses to frame the war.
Scott Pelley
Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle.
Lesley Stahl
Pope Leo warned that Jesus does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war.
Interviewer
Is this a just war?
Cardinal Robert McElroy
No. Under Catholic teaching, this is not a just war. Catholic faith teaches us there are certain prerequisites for a just war. You can't go for a variety of different aims. You have to have a focus aim, which is to restore justice and restore peace. That's it.
Interviewer
Iran has been the chief exporter of terror. Is there no scenario in which preventing that can be a just war?
Cardinal Robert McElroy
It's an abominable regime and it should be removed. But this is a war of choice that we went to, and I think it's embedded in a wider moment in the United States that's worrying, which is this. We're seeing before us the possibility of war after war after war.
Lesley Stahl
President Trump has argued that military action against Iran was justified in order to destroy its nuclear and ballistic missile programs, among other reasons. Cardinal Cupich not only takes issue with the war, but also what he calls the gamification of how the White House has portrayed it on social media.
Whistleblower / Former Superego Employee
Flawless victory.
John Wertheim
We're dehumanizing the victims of war by turning the suffering of people and the killing of of children and our own soldiers into entertainment.
Interviewer
You called it sickening.
John Wertheim
It is sickening. To splice together movie cuts with actual bombing and targeting of people for the purposes of entertainment is sickening. This is not who we are. We're better than this.
Lesley Stahl
We spoke with the cardinals in the nation's capital. It was a wide ranging conversation in which they told us Pope Leo inspired them to weigh in on political issues, including the administration's mass deportation efforts this past January. Cardinal Tobin called Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ice, a lawless organization.
Interviewer
Cardinal, those are strong words to call ICE a lawless organization. Why did you do that?
Cardinal Joseph Tobin
I didn't say that they were people without law. But when people act in this way, when they have to hide their identities to terrify people, when they can actually violate other guarantees of our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Well, I think somebody's got to call that out. And I'm not the only one.
Interviewer
Colonel McElroy, we are speaking in a church here in Washington, D.C. that serves a largely immigrant population. The pastor asked us not to share or publicize this parish, name or location. What's he worried about?
Cardinal Robert McElroy
He's worried for his people. They live under fear. And thus our mass count within the Spanish masses in our archdiocese went down 30% from the year before. 30%. That's a lot. And it's all fear.
Lesley Stahl
Before he became Archbishop of Washington, Cardinal Robert McElroy served as the Bishop of San Diego, one of the busiest stretches of the southern border, for illegal crossings.
Cardinal Robert McElroy
I feel it got to a point where it was getting out of control.
Lesley Stahl
Under Biden?
Cardinal Robert McElroy
Under Biden, yes.
Interviewer
You believe in strong borders?
Cardinal Robert McElroy
Yes.
Interviewer
So what's wrong, then, with the current policy?
Cardinal Robert McElroy
This is a roundup of people throughout the country, people who have been living good, strong lives, been here a long time, raised their children here, many of their children born here. And our citizens. That's what our objection is.
Interviewer
But this was discussed during the campaign, was widely discussed. And yet President Trump won the Catholic vote over Kamala Harris, handily, 55 to 43%. He promised to secure the border. He talked about deportation, and a majority of Catholics voted for the policy.
John Wertheim
I would like to know what Catholics feel about this indiscriminate mass deportation. I think that it's very clear the American people are saying, we really didn't vote for this.
Interviewer
What do you say to people in the pews who say, I don't want to hear politics from my priest?
John Wertheim
I say, fine. I want to preach the gospel. God wants us to promote peace in the world because his desire is that we be one human family.
Cardinal Robert McElroy
What we're seeing as pastors is an enormous, profound level of human suffering, and that's what motivates us.
Lesley Stahl
We found a sign of what motivates Leo and how his church will care for migrants and the less fortunate. In a sacred space 15 miles southeast of Rome, nearly 2,000 years ago, Castel Gandolfo was the villa of a Roman emperor. For the last 400 years, it has been the Pope's summer home. Leo's predecessor, Pope Francis, enlisted Father Manny Durantes, a priest from Chicago and an immigrant to the US himself, to help open it up to the world.
Father Manny Durantes
I think Pope Leo wants to make the dream of Pope Francis a reality. After we explained the whole vision and talked with him, he said to us, full force ahead, Father Manny. This is the spiritual heart of Borgo Valdeto.
Dispatcher
Si.
Father Manny Durantes
And this entire space.
Lesley Stahl
That vision is an innovative new project centered around migrants and locals in need. Participating in the Vatican's first job training center, they're teaching sustainable farming, gardening, and cooking at the same Estate where Pope Leo comes to rest. And every week.
Interviewer
How many migrants are you talking about? That may be part of this job
Father Manny Durantes
training program between migrants and people in vulnerability. Our goal is to be able to at least train about 1,000 people, you know, per year. That doesn't sound like a big number, but ultimately it's a model of how if every church did something like this, every diocese, we have 6,000 of them. You know, that's a lot of people we could train in a year.
Bill Whitaker
My name is Ali and Yamin, my from Bangladesh.
Nermeen (Migrant)
My name is Nermeen from Syria.
Lesley Stahl
We met the first graduating class of chefs in training that included refugees and migrants from around the world. One was a young man from West Africa who survived the dangerous journey by sea to the Italian island of Lampedusa in the Mediterranean, where tens of thousands of migrants have drowned.
Interviewer
Pope Leo will spend July 4th in Lampedusa, Italy, a site where tens of thousands of migrants land on their way to Europe every year. It's America's 250th birthday. Do you think the Holy Father is sending a message, Cardinal, with that visit?
John Wertheim
He's sending a message that his top priority right now is to be with those who are downcast and marginalized.
Interviewer
Coincidence that he's going there on July 4th.
Cardinal Joseph Tobin
I know at least one member of my archdiocese that would be happy, and she's green and she's on a little island just that belongs to New Jersey and is technically part of the Archdiocese of Newark. And she's holding up a torch and she's reading from a scroll and it says, welcome.
Lesley Stahl
So far in 2026, the Catholic Church in the US has welcomed the largest number of converts in recent years In Cardinal Tobin's archdiocese, there's an all time high of new people joining the church.
Interviewer
Cardinal Tobin, do you think that surge in interest and attendance has something to do with Pope Leo?
Cardinal Joseph Tobin
Yes, I do. I've had the privilege of working closely with four popes. Very different people in a lot of ways, but each one in some way was the right one for that moment in time. I believe that Pope Leo is the right man at this time.
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Bill Whitaker
I wrote a little song to remind you. Choice hotels get you more of the experiences you value. Mmm. The Cambria Hotel's got it all. A rooftop bar. Have a ball. Cocktails up here. Feel just right. Ms. Cambria. Amazing. All right, bring a date, your teen or even your mom. Book direct@ChoiceHotels.com See you on the roof. Tonight, the results of an eight month investigation into a dangerous scheme many Americans have never heard of, a scheme that may be putting all of us at risk on the road. Our investigation took us to truck stops in Florida and sources in Europe to examine what are called chameleon carriers, commercial trucking fleets, often foreign owned and operated, that shed one identity for another after racking up flagrant safety violations and flouting federal regulations. Our reporting focused on Superego Holding, a network of commercial trucking and leasing companies based in Serbia and the US it's currently under federal investigation and named in a class action lawsuit. Regulators and former employees call it one of the most notorious chameleon schemes, a ticking time bomb on our nation's roadways.
Rob Carpenter (Trucking Safety Consultant)
Chameleon carriers are basically a network of companies and they constantly reincarnate. And the idea is we are revenue focused. We are going to start this trucking company, we are going to run it into the ground, just make as much money as we possibly can.
Bill Whitaker
Rob Carpenter has been a trucker for 25 years. He now is a trucking safety consultant and has been tracking chameleon companies which have surged since the pandemic. Chameleon carriers, as their name suggests, are commercial trucking operations that skirt federal regulations and escape bad safety records by changing company names to evade detection.
Rob Carpenter (Trucking Safety Consultant)
And when you move on to the next, you're really doing that to try, try to abandon the history that you've created with that other trucking company because you've run so poorly in the past year, right? So then you just adopt a new identity and you move on to a new carrier.
Bill Whitaker
Just dissolve that company, Just completely dissolve a new name on the truck and move on.
Scott Pelley
That's right.
Bill Whitaker
You can see how easy it is in this undercover video shot by another trucker. Same drivers, same trucks, same bad records. In this case, hundreds of violations erased with with the switch of a carrier name and department of transportation number the federal ID used to track a carrier's safety history.
Rob Carpenter (Trucking Safety Consultant)
You've got no violations, you've got no crashes. Things that people are going to look at and scrutinize on whether they're going to let you haul their freight or not don't exist. You're just a clean carrier to them.
Bill Whitaker
Networks often owned and operated from eastern Europe, India and central Asia set up chameleon carriers in the US with different names and owners who then register with the department of transportation, secure minimal insurance,
Rob Carpenter (Trucking Safety Consultant)
and within 21 days you have a trucking company.
Bill Whitaker
That's all it takes.
Rob Carpenter (Trucking Safety Consultant)
That's all it takes. There's no requirement to own a trucking company that you be in American. You can start it from anywhere in the world. Thousand bucks, pay online, say you are who you say you are, and you've got a trucking company.
Bill Whitaker
Do you have any idea how many of them there there are?
Rob Carpenter (Trucking Safety Consultant)
You got 700,000 trucking companies, let's just say the general estimate is 10 to 20% are operating somewhere in that spectrum of chameleon carrier. Thousands of trucking companies.
Bill Whitaker
That's mind blowing. Yeah. Thousands of trucking companies racking up thousands of safety violations, poor maintenance, excessive driving hours, drug and alcohol use, all while evading federal enforcement. How dangerous is this?
Rob Carpenter (Trucking Safety Consultant)
We're having crashes all the time. So you got 260 million other Americans on the highway sharing it with 700,000 trucking companies. You have a moral, ethical responsibility to share the road safely with those people. But when you've got 10 to 20% that are not doing that, that's an issue.
Bill Whitaker
An issue that contributed to the more than 5,300 truck related deaths in 2024, according to data gathered by Fusible, a risk assessment firm. Chameleon carriers are four times more likely to be involved in a crash like this. The culprit in this case, a tractor trailer tied to a network called Superego holding. Its driver was going 72 miles an hour when it plowed into this school bus, critically injuring two children. According to DOT data, chameleon carriers connected to SuperEgo have logged almost 15,000 safety violations and 500 accidents in the last two years. Today, there are only 350 investigators at the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, or FMCSA, overseeing all 700,000 trucking companies on our roads. Those numbers just seem out of whack.
Derrick Burs (FMCSA Administrator)
We are actively trying to find ways that we can do investigations more efficiently, more effectively.
Bill Whitaker
Derrick bars took over as administrator of FMCSA in October. This past year, regulators cracked down on foreign commercial truck drivers and fraudulent commercial driving schools and have vowed to take on chameleon carriers. Do you have the personnel and the resources you need?
Derrick Burs (FMCSA Administrator)
We have additional 40 investigators that we're trying to hire today. We have a new registration system that we will be rolling out this year. The system we have currently is like 40 years old.
Bill Whitaker
I mean, you've got these rogue companies. They rack up tons of safety violations. They're a federally regulated industry. How is that possible?
Derrick Burs (FMCSA Administrator)
We have a front door problem, meaning we need to stop this before they actually get into the system.
Bill Whitaker
Are you familiar with the chameleon carrier company, superego? Are they on your radar?
Derrick Burs (FMCSA Administrator)
They're a part of an ongoing investigation. We have prioritized companies who, through our data gathering, that are our top 10 companies that we need to be investigating.
Bill Whitaker
We reached out to superego Company lawyers told us it's a leasing company, not a trucking firm, and that it's not responsible for the actions of affiliated carriers and drivers. But according to our investigation and court documents, that's not the whole story. Under the superego umbrella that stretches from Serbia to the US Is a vast network of separate but coordinated companies that provide brokers who book deliveries, dispatchers, and leases for tractors and trailers. Subsidiaries operate the trucks and hire drivers like Daniel Sanchez under lease to own contracts.
Daniel Sanchez (Truck Driver)
I see how much they don't care about you. They literally don't care about any driver on the road at all.
Bill Whitaker
Daniel Sanchez had been driving commercial rigs for eight years when he was recruited by Superego in 2025.
Daniel Sanchez (Truck Driver)
They'd have me go out and do anything to get the money, no matter what the risk. They don't care if I got a violation or went to jail, whatever, for any reason, the next day, they'd have another driver in that truck and keep on going.
Bill Whitaker
Can't be safe for the driver. Can't be safe for us on the road.
David Hurwitz (Whale Watching Tour Operator)
Anybody?
Daniel Sanchez (Truck Driver)
Anybody?
Bill Whitaker
Superego branded trucks started hauling freight across America seven years ago. It was founded by serbian entrepreneur Aleksandr mimic and has grown into a sprawling enterprise tied to more than two dozen u S based carriers with hubs in Elmhurst, Illinois and Jacksonville, Florida, and customers as large as Amazon, Walmart, Costco, and the United States Postal Service. Superego holding uses flashy recruitment campaigns.
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Get the best deal with Super Ego
Bill Whitaker
holding to lure drivers, including Daniel Sanchez.
Daniel Sanchez (Truck Driver)
They promise you the world. They'd say you can make 8 to 10, $12,000 a week.
Bill Whitaker
So did Superego live up to any of those promises?
Daniel Sanchez (Truck Driver)
Not at all.
Bill Whitaker
60 Minutes spoke with seven drivers who told us Serbia based managers routinely skimmed hundreds to thousands of dollars off their pay in excessive fees for their lease, insurance and repairs. The class action lawsuit calls it a scheme to defraud drivers.
Daniel Sanchez (Truck Driver)
I was coming home with negative amounts on my check. Negative.
Bill Whitaker
Months.
Daniel Sanchez (Truck Driver)
Negative. Yeah, it was in the red. I was going around 6 to 800 miles a day with that. And you'd come home with zero.
Bill Whitaker
Drivers also told us the company would shortchange them by altering delivery contracts or rate cons, which confirm how much a broker has agreed to pay to move freight. A percentage of that goes to the driver. Court documents show this rate con sheet on the left is the original. This fraudulent one on the right shows a cut of $700, resulting in reduced compensation for the trucker, a practice captured in this call between a dispatcher and another driver.
Dispatcher
Can you please send me the other document that the broker sent you? Yeah, I can send you, but why? He told me that he was sending out the rate con for 1500 bucks, and then five minutes later, you call me and tell me I'm getting 300 bucks. Do you see what it looks like from my point of view?
Bill Whitaker
And remember that shell game of erasing carrier names and dot numbers to hide violations? Sanchez says he was told to do that, too. How would you physically change the number and the name?
Daniel Sanchez (Truck Driver)
They'd email you or send you some kind of documentation with a picture of the new name and dot number. They'd have me print it out, buy some duct tape, come out, put on
Bill Whitaker
the truck with duct tape.
Daniel Sanchez (Truck Driver)
Duct tape? Yeah.
Bill Whitaker
Change the name and the number.
Whistleblower / Former Superego Employee
Yeah.
Daniel Sanchez (Truck Driver)
Because a new truck at that point,
Bill Whitaker
drivers also told us they were being pressured to drive more hours with less sleep after they'd already logged 11 hours behind the wheel. The legal limit managers back in Serbia would illegally reset federally mandated time clocks, as seen in this animation, to give drivers a fresh set of hours, as
Dispatcher
heard in this call delivering 2pm in 24 hours.
David Hurwitz (Whale Watching Tour Operator)
Yeah.
Cardinal Robert McElroy
Yeah.
Bill Whitaker
That's gonna be awful difficult. Yeah, I know, I know.
Dispatcher
But we can fix your clock by
Daniel Sanchez (Truck Driver)
the push of a button, I guess, somehow. Somewhere they have control of the app where they can just reset your time and just make it go away.
Bill Whitaker
You've driven 11 hours. You're required to have the downtime, and they change the device to make it seem as though you have not finished your 11 hours.
Daniel Sanchez (Truck Driver)
Yeah, there's been a time where I drove. I was driving for 18 hours, and I told him, I said, I'm done. I'm going to sleep. And parking. The text message said, they don't care about that. They're not paying for you to do anything but use the restroom and drive.
Bill Whitaker
We met this whistleblower, a former employee of a Superego affiliated company based in Serbia in an undisclosed European city, and altered his appearance for his protection.
Whistleblower / Former Superego Employee
They are only asking about making money from the driver, and they don't take care about safety standards.
Bill Whitaker
He confirmed company dispatchers and managers were told to overwork and extort American drivers like Sanchez at every turn. They train you to do this?
Whistleblower / Former Superego Employee
Yeah, they explained me that it's normal, a normal thing to do.
Bill Whitaker
What have drivers been most upset about?
Whistleblower / Former Superego Employee
They don't have money to pay bills. They don't have money to eat. They don't have money to pay rent.
Bill Whitaker
The dispatchers, do they have any concern for the drivers? Any compassion?
Whistleblower / Former Superego Employee
They don't have emotions.
Cardinal Joseph Tobin
The job, it's just a job.
Bill Whitaker
You squeeze as much money out of this driver as you can.
Whistleblower / Former Superego Employee
Yeah, it's better to our owner make money than them.
Bill Whitaker
He told us taking money from drivers became a competition. Lists like this were posted inside his Belgrade office. The more they took, the bigger their bonuses. During this pay period, the top dispatcher cut nearly $24,000, or 32% from driver's pay. Any idea how much of the company's profit is earned that way?
Whistleblower / Former Superego Employee
Some week, 1 million. Some week, 2 million per week. Yes.
Bill Whitaker
This is a super ego truck right here. Due to a compliance dispute, Daniel Sanchez lost his job in January along with his truck and the $35,000 he'd put toward owning it.
Daniel Sanchez (Truck Driver)
For me personally, it's crushing because this is my dream. I wanted to own my own truck. I thought this company was gonna, you know, get me to where I'm trying to be. They just don't care. You're not a human being for them, you're just a number.
Bill Whitaker
Basically, for sure, that Superego holding denies any wrongdoing, but more than 800 truckers are suing it and affiliated companies for fraud and breach of contract. More of our CBS News investigation into chameleon carriers coming up on Sunday morning.
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Scott Pelley
The coastal waters around Cape Town, South Africa have long teamed with great white sharks. But about 10 years ago, carcasses of these feared predators began washing up on beaches with their livers missing. Now it's hard to find any great whites. Tonight, a story that has all the hallmarks of a whodunit. One that's fueled a bitter feud among scientists and conservationists who can't agree on who or what is the real culprit. They do agree on one the great white sharks that once cruised these waters are gone. For as long as anyone can remember, the ocean off Cape Town was the best place in the world to see great whites. There were plenty of smaller sharks for them to hunt and tens of thousands of seals which lived on a small stretch of rock nearby called Seal Island. Early each morning, with a little luck, you could catch sight of these majestic predators flying out of the water.
Bill Whitaker
That was unbelievable.
Scott Pelley
Until a little more than a decade ago, Chris Fallows, a photographer and naturalist, used to see 250 to 300 different great white sharks a year. The images he took back then are amongst the most breathtaking of the natural world.
Chris Fallows (Photographer/Naturalist)
It's a sight you never forget and I still kind of get that tingly feeling to see the most spectacular shark on earth now flying out the water. It was truly incredible to see.
Scott Pelley
We saw that ourselves in 2010 when we reported on the great whites here and the tens of thousands of visitors who came each year for a close encounter in cages.
Bill Whitaker
That was really something.
Scott Pelley
We were taken diving without a cage in water that had been chummed with blood to attract sharks. Immediately, a 15 foot great white swam straight toward us.
Bill Whitaker
That's a big bug.
Dispatcher
It's amazing.
Scott Pelley
It's coming right toward us Sharks are curious creatures, and they circled us constantly. It was extraordinary to be so close to such a massive predator. That's incredible. It's unbelievable.
Lesley Stahl
Wow.
Bill Whitaker
In it and in way some. So happy I'm back up.
Scott Pelley
But just a few years after that dive, sightings of sharks here began to dwindle and the tourists stopped coming.
Chris Fallows (Photographer/Naturalist)
If you went out and did that today, you would see nothing.
Scott Pelley
Why is that?
Chris Fallows (Photographer/Naturalist)
Because their numbers have simply plummeted. Tragically, we have all but lost the great white shark.
Scott Pelley
The disappearance of great whites from here mystified scientists. Allison Koch, a marine biologist, was South African national parks began searching for clues in 2015. Divers sent her these photos of smaller shark carcasses on the sea floor with mysterious incisions in them.
Nermeen (Migrant)
It looked so surgical from the photographs that I first assumed it must have been done by somebody with a knife.
Scott Pelley
A fisherman or something.
Nermeen (Migrant)
Yes. And it wasn't until the next time it happened that that I managed to retrieve some of the carcasses and study them. And I found tooth marks on the pectoral fins of some of the dead sharks.
Scott Pelley
Those tooth marks suggested the culprits couldn't be human. So Koch and her colleagues went diving for more evidence and encountered an unlikely suspect. Orcas, Killer whales.
Nermeen (Migrant)
We just retrieved one of the carcasses, and my research partner says, orca. And here comes two orcas under the boat in our study area. It was light bulb. They were feeding right in that area where we just found the carcass. Now, what we have is that orcas are a real possibility for being the culprit for these carcasses.
Scott Pelley
Two years later, great whites began washing ashore with their livers missing. What's so tasty about a shark liver?
Nermeen (Migrant)
It's the most calorie dense organ out of the whole body, and it takes up almost a third of the shark's body.
Scott Pelley
So they're not trying to eat the entire shark, they're just targeting the liver. Koch and her colleagues performed necropsies and confirmed orcas were indeed the culprits. They've been in these waters for years, but no one had ever seen one kill a great white here, though they are known to hunt them off California and around Australia for South Africa.
Nermeen (Migrant)
This was completely novel because for a long time you go, but white sharks are the apex predators. And this is, I think, why people struggle to sort of believe that this was happening.
Scott Pelley
I mean, it is like something out of csi. It's like you're the detective and I
Nermeen (Migrant)
feel like a detective, but for a long time we didn't have all of the pieces of the puzzle.
Scott Pelley
David Hurwitz helped put the puzzle together. He's a whale watching tour operator and was the first person to see two very distinctive male orcas hunting and killing sharks. He named them Port and Starboard.
David Hurwitz (Whale Watching Tour Operator)
What was distinctive about them is that both of their dorsal fins were collapsed, which is very unusual.
Scott Pelley
Like collapsed over like that.
David Hurwitz (Whale Watching Tour Operator)
The one that collapsed to the left, the other one to the right. And being a nautical man, immediately it came to my mind, let's call them port, starboard. And that caught on from there. And they've become world famous or infamous.
Scott Pelley
Infamous because unlike most orcas which hunt in groups called pods, Port and Starboard were hunting sharks for their livers. And as a pair, they're hunting on their own in ways people here have never seen before. I mean, are these like serial killers?
David Hurwitz (Whale Watching Tour Operator)
They are definitely not serial killers.
Scott Pelley
They're eating the livers of. It's like Hannibal Lecter eating liver with fava beans.
David Hurwitz (Whale Watching Tour Operator)
I am sa infatuated by Port, Starboard. You'll never get me to say a bad word against them.
Scott Pelley
Scientists now believe Port and Starboard might even be teaching other orcas how to hunt down sharks. In 2022, this drone footage captured five orcas working together, stunning and then killing a great white.
Nermeen (Migrant)
Here's an orca with this big white shark upside down, biting into the area where the liver is.
Scott Pelley
More recently, single orcas have been seen hunting sharks in South Africa and elsewhere. This National Geographic documentary shows an orca striking a great white like a torpedo, stunning it, then taking it in its mouth.
Nermeen (Migrant)
They're learning. They're learning all the time. I think it's hard for people to kind of understand how smart these animals are.
Scott Pelley
Koch maintains the presence of these smart hunters has chased the once dominant great whites further along the coast and insists that overall the population of great whites in South African waters is stable. The presence of just two orcas, that would drive away hundreds of them.
Nermeen (Migrant)
The predator eats the prey and that has an impact on some of the numbers. But one of the biggest things with predation is the fear of predation or the risk of predation and what we call the landscape of fear.
Scott Pelley
But gazelle don't disappear because a lion is killing some gazelle.
Nermeen (Migrant)
They've evolved alongside of their predator. White sharks have not. White sharks have been the top dog. This was a novel predator for them. They were not used to being predated on by another species.
Enrico Gennari (Marine Biologist)
Orcas have been killing white sharks for thousands of years.
Scott Pelley
Enrico Gennari is an Italian marine biologist who's been researching great whites in South Africa for 20 years. He doesn't agree with Alison Koch that the population is stable.
Enrico Gennari (Marine Biologist)
The question is not. The orcas are pushing white sharks away. Same thing happened in California. Same thing happened in Australia. The question here in South Africa why they are not coming back.
Scott Pelley
In California, orcas have killed great white sharks. But then the great whites came back
Enrico Gennari (Marine Biologist)
up to six, nine months. The white shark left, but they always came back.
Scott Pelley
Gennari and photographer Chris Fallows both agree the numbers of great whites plummeted a few years before port and starboard began their killing spree.
Chris Fallows (Photographer/Naturalist)
By the time the great white sharks had completely disappeared from Sioux island, we had never once seen port and starboard at sea island.
Scott Pelley
You don't buy this argument that it's these two orcas that have made all the great whites here disappear?
Chris Fallows (Photographer/Naturalist)
I don't buy it one bit. How can you blame somebody that wasn't even on the crime scene?
Scott Pelley
Fallows and Gennari argue humans are ultimately to blame. They've been documented the impact of commercial fishing boats on smaller shark species that are a staple of the great white's diet. The boats lay miles of long lines with thousands of hooks attached on the ocean floor. The sharks they catch are exported to Australia, used for cheap fish and chips.
Chris Fallows (Photographer/Naturalist)
Shark longlining is undoubtedly robbing the great white sharks of food. It's the primary prey source for the great whites when they're not feeding on seals. When you remove the prey, you have a significant impact on the predator.
Scott Pelley
An even bigger impact on great whites, Fallows and Gennaries say are shark nets and baited hooks attached to buoys which the South African authorities have used to protect swimmers along the coast since the 1950s. Nets and hooks kill more than 20 great whites a year along with whatever else gets caught by them.
Enrico Gennari (Marine Biologist)
The device are designed to kill and lower the population number. The concept is one less shark, one less chance of an encounter with a human.
Scott Pelley
Genari would like to see South Africa embrace a variety of alternatives to protect swimmers. Like underwater magnetic fields which interfere with the scents sharks use for hunting. Or increasing the use of smaller mesh nets which create a barrier without entangling marine life.
Enrico Gennari (Marine Biologist)
The problem that in South Africa we only using lethal method and that is outdated and unsustainable.
Scott Pelley
If you believe that it's these two orcas which have driven away the great white population, there's not much humans can do about that. What your argument is there's actually a lot humans can do with long line fishing and getting rid of these shark nets that is something humans can impact?
Chris Fallows (Photographer/Naturalist)
Absolutely. Let's stop bickering about something we can't control, and let's start focusing on the things that we can control. And if we don't start addressing those factors that we can control, I don't believe there's any hope.
Scott Pelley
In 1991, South Africa was the first country in the world to protect the great white shark. But Enrico Gennari believes those efforts have failed and now fears it may be the first country to lose them.
Enrico Gennari (Marine Biologist)
If we lose the white shark in South Africa, we lose a battle for all nature. If we can protect even the most charismatic, most protected species on paper in South Africa, what chance the little guys, the other sharks or the other animals have against unsustainable use? Nothing.
Scott Pelley
There's a lot of people watching who may not have a lot of sympathy with great white sharks. Why should somebody care?
Chris Fallows (Photographer/Naturalist)
I think somebody should care in the same way as we never used to have sympathy with whales. You know, we were wiping these animals out to the point of extinction. Great whites are no different. So even if we don't like the look of the animal, they're incredibly important for us going forward.
Scott Pelley
With no great whites to document, Fallows has shifted his focus to photographing humpback whales.
Chris Fallows (Photographer/Naturalist)
Unbelievable.
Scott Pelley
Since a moratorium on commercial whaling was enacted in the 1980s, humpbacks have made a remarkable comeback. Does it have anything to do with the great whites leaving?
Chris Fallows (Photographer/Naturalist)
No. What it's got 100% to do with is enlightened governments, passionate individuals showcasing the whales for what they were, incredibly sentient creatures having an important role to play in our ocean. Therefore, they became protected, and now their numbers are being allowed to expand naturally.
Scott Pelley
To you, that's an example that conservation efforts can work.
Chris Fallows (Photographer/Naturalist)
Undoubtedly, it can work. I believe, you know, if we take away pressures on animals, if there are enough of them, they will still rebound. It's called balance. A balance station is a health ocean. A healthy ocean is a healthy environment for us.
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Chris Fallows (Photographer/Naturalist)
I was very lucky to be in the right position at the right time.
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@60minutesovertime.com. The Last minute of 60 minutes.
Scott Pelley
The 250th anniversary of American independence coincides with a new revolution. Artificial intelligence. A leader is Sundar Pichai, the CEO of Google and Alphabet.
Sundar Pichai (Google CEO)
For 250 years, America has led the world in inventing technologies that improve people's lives. AI is the most profound technology yet. And once again, America must take the lead and develop it boldly and responsibly. So every American benefits. We already see glimmers of how AI can help. Be it researchers working to discover life saving cures, teachers customizing lesson plans to help students learn, or firefighters tracking wildfires with greater precision. Many examples are more personal. My dad is a retired engineer in his 80s. I'll never forget the awe on his face during his first ride in a safe, self driving car on the streets of San Francisco. It was magical. Of course, with any technology there are challenges to work through from investing in workforce training and putting the right regulations in place. Still, I'm optimistic. Not because I believe in technology, but because I believe in people and the sheer power of American ingenuity.
Scott Pelley
I'm Anderson Cooper. We'll be back next week with another edition of 60 Minutes.
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Bill Whitaker
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Nermeen (Migrant)
This is the
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This episode of 60 Minutes covers three major stories:
Additionally, a brief segment at the end features Google CEO Sundar Pichai reflecting on America's tradition of innovation, emphasizing the promise and challenges of artificial intelligence.
Segment Begins: [04:59]
A look at Pope Leo XIV—a Chicago-born, soft-spoken but increasingly vocal leader—who is positioning the Catholic Church as a global voice on war, immigration, and social justice, sometimes in direct opposition to U.S. governmental policies.
Segment Begins: [19:13]
A months-long investigation reveals how “chameleon carriers”—trucking companies that repeatedly change names and identities—skirt safety regulations, creating grave dangers on American highways.
Segment Begins: [34:02]
An ecological mystery: The once-dense great white shark population off Cape Town vanishes. The investigation pits scientists against each other over the culprit—killer whales (orcas) or human activity?
Segment Begins: [47:26]
This episode of 60 Minutes highlights the growing intersection of morality, technology, and human impact—across faith, infrastructure, and ecology—offering both exposés of problems and glimmers of hope through courageous leadership and possible paths for reform.
For further details and visuals, visit CBS 60 Minutes