80,000 Hours Podcast Episode Summary

Episode: Rob & Luisa chat kids, the fertility crash, and how the ‘50s invented parenting that makes us miserable
Date: November 25, 2025
Hosts: Rob Wiblin & Luisa Rodriguez

Overview

In this wide-ranging and candid episode, Rob and Luisa discuss the personal, societal, and historical dimensions of having children in the modern age. Their conversation explores everything from the joys and frustrations of pregnancy and parenting, to global fertility trends, shifting cultural norms, and how the post-war ideal of “intensive parenting” makes raising children both more demanding and less attractive. Throughout, they examine both evidence and personal experience—often questioning if our current models of parenting and work-life balance are really optimal for parents or children.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Decisions and Feelings Around Having Children

• Luisa’s Pregnancy & Decision-Making

  • Luisa describes her struggle to decide whether to have children, feeling tension between personal desire and her moral values around career impact ([02:34]).
    • Quote: “I desperately wanted to have kids, but... I couldn’t justify it kind of aligning with my values... Eventually I convinced myself that there was a tension, but I needed to do it anyways.” – Luisa ([02:34])
  • Luisa reports a tough pregnancy, particularly with nausea and feeling let down by the medical system’s hesitancy toward treatments ([04:18]-[07:14]).
    • Quote: “It just feels totally unreasonable to me... why are we not outraged about this?” – Luisa ([05:35])
    • Quote: “Doctors have this... ‘the benefits outweigh the risks,’ but offer no kind of sensible guidance about whether the benefits outweigh the risks.” – Luisa ([07:17])

• Rob’s Experience with Early Parenting

  • Rob recalls finding the newborn stage easier than anticipated, largely thanks to their child’s easy-going nature and the support of parental leave; subsequent stages became harder with increased mobility and balancing work ([09:53]).
    • Quote: “At that time we had found it significantly less difficult... than my wife and I had been anticipating.” – Rob ([10:33])
  • As his son became a toddler, the need for constant attention and entertainment rose sharply ([11:56]-[12:51]).
    • Quote: “As they get older... they become very mobile and become very active... that just requires constant attention because there’s so many ways they can hurt themselves.” – Rob ([11:56])

• Gender Expectations and Parenting Fears

  • Luisa discusses the common phenomenon of “gender disappointment,” wanting a girl due to her own experiences, and fears relating to raising boys vs. girls in the current social landscape ([18:23]-[20:51]).
    • Quote: “I only had sisters... I like know what it’s like to be a girl and raise a girl... probably there are going to be wonderful things about having a boy...” – Luisa ([18:50])

2. The Global Fertility Crash

• Trends and Data

  • Rob summarizes the rapid decline in fertility rates worldwide, noting that after 2016 the rate of decline accelerated markedly ([21:42]-[23:39]).
    • Quote: “From 2016 through 2023... the rate of decline increased by 4.5 fold... people have had to really update their projections...” – Rob ([21:42])
  • They discuss that with total fertility rates nearing 1 in several countries, entire populations could halve each generation ([23:58]).
    • Quote: “If you have a fertility rate of 1, [the population] halves every generation... in some countries now that do have a fertility rate around 1... that is kind of a population crash.” – Rob ([23:58])

• Attempted Solutions & Their Limits

  • Most pro-natalist policies (like cash incentives, childcare provision) have minor impact; the central challenges are deep-seated, structural, and cultural ([28:16]-[29:19], [60:19]-[62:07]).
    • Quote: “Even when countries spend a couple percent of GDP, you can drive up fertility by 0.2 or 0.3... you run out of people who are willing to have more children.” – Rob ([60:19])

• Why Are People Having Fewer Kids?

  • Popular theories about financial cost don’t fit the global trend (wealthier families and countries have fewer children) ([29:42]-[30:19]).
  • It’s more about:
    • Rising opportunity cost of time: digital distractions and wider social opportunities make parenting relatively less attractive ([30:19], [32:59]).
    • Declining social pressure and cultural expectations to be parents ([34:22]).
    • Decreased rates of relationship formation in key reproductive years ([35:19]).
    • Increased economic and social independence, especially for women ([37:51]).
    • High/increased parenting standards (“intensive parenting”) ([39:24], [42:27]).

3. The Changing Nature of Parenting: From 'Free-Range' to 'Intensive'

• Historical Perspective

  • The old ideal—large families, children spending time in self-organized play, minimal direct parental supervision—has virtually vanished ([39:24]-[43:20]).
    • Quote: “In the 18th century, it was not at all common... that parents would be playing games with their children... families were much larger. There were so many more kids...” – Rob ([41:30])
  • Modern “intensive parenting” (hours of structured play, high engagement) is a post-1950s, Western-centric ideal ([41:30], [43:20]).
    • Quote: “It really is, I think, important to dwell on the fact that this is a peculiar attitude... only exists in the modern era...” – Rob ([43:20])
  • Despite nostalgia for independent childhoods, both Rob and Luisa feel guilt and pressure to perform the “super-parent” role ([42:27], [43:20], [45:07]).

• The Harm of Perfectionism and Parental Self-Effacement

  • Rob argues that children do not need constant, high-engagement parenting and often benefit from independence and multiple caregivers ([46:34], [80:27]).
    • Quote: “Children develop completely fine... as long as they do have an attentive, concerned parent... it’s sufficient to have a very positive relationship.” – Rob ([80:27])
  • They suggest giving equal regard to parental wellbeing and children’s happiness—a surprisingly controversial suggestion ([56:02]-[56:37]).
    • Quote: “We should give kind of equal regard to the preferences and the wellbeing of parents and children.” – Rob ([56:34])

4. Practical Parenting: Work, Childcare, and Real-Life Challenges

• Returning to Work: Strategies & Emotional Responses

  • Both hosts describe using nannies and childcare centers, with mixed initial feelings of anxiety, guilt, and practical concerns about “missing out” or fear of children becoming more attached to caregivers ([72:28], [76:00]-[80:27]).
  • Luisa finds relief in Rob’s evidence-backed reassurance that “good parenting” does not require full-time, hands-on exclusivity from parents ([84:54]).
    • Quote: “If I want to be a good parent, I need to do that hard thing and hand the kid off and give them a much wider range of experiences. Probably... that actually just does a lot for my gut level feeling.” – Luisa ([84:54])

• Impact on Work and Life

  • Parenting significantly reduces available time and energy for high-impact work tasks, especially in early years ([94:08]).
    • Quote: “It has reduced my productivity... maybe 20% or something like that. It’s pretty meaningful.” – Rob ([94:08])
  • Rob candidly admits he accepts this as an ethical tradeoff between personal fulfillment and doing good, not from any sense of ideal moral duty ([96:23]).

• AI, Parenting, and the Future of Childhood

  • They reflect on how advanced AI might make conventional career advancement less relevant—should this alter how we view what it means to prepare children for flourishing adulthood? ([97:12]-[102:49])
    • Quote: “In the long run, radically. Almost like radically. Hopefully, because the world will be much better... It’s a real long shot... that we’re training up our kid to have a normal job the way that my wife and I do.” – Rob ([97:12])
  • Tension: Even as radical AI timelines appear plausible, it’s hard to shed parental ambitions for children’s success within today’s systems ([100:06]).

5. Other Parenting Wisdom, Concerns, and Joys

• What Really Matters in Parenting

  • Building a warm, non-angry household appears much more important than perfect educational or play routines; anger or tension has the clearest link to negative child outcomes ([108:00]-[109:53]).
  • Major risks to avoid: extreme screen exposure, nutrients deficits, accidents, a tense or angry atmosphere.

• Highlights and Hardships

  • The best parts: seeing a child’s joy, progress, and personality unfold, especially during happy or playful moments ([110:03]).
  • The worst parts: exhaustion, illness, and logistical challenges—especially when caring for a child while sick or sleep-deprived ([110:41]).

• Dealing with Parental Guilt

  • Both hosts note that guilt, pressure, and fear of judgment (internal or external) are now endemic to parenting—exacerbated by new cultural scripts rather than genuine necessity ([50:41]-[53:19]).
  • Rob: “I don't really feel like we've failed in a very significant... dimension. Maybe that's like a bad sign about me. Maybe we are failing. But no, I think we're doing an okay job.” ([115:40])

• Recommended Products and Toys

  • Rob has compiled a list (linked in show notes) but singles out changing stations, nappy bins, a ‘Jumperoo’ for physical play, and plenty of simple toys/books as especially valuable ([111:51]-[113:08]).
  • Some highly-hyped products, like the ‘Snoo’ smart bassinet, can be hit-or-miss ([113:08]).

Notable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |------------|---------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:34 | Luisa | “I desperately wanted to have kids, but...I couldn’t justify it kind of aligning with my values...I needed to do it anyways.” | | 05:35 | Luisa | “Why are we not outraged about this? A bunch of people are going around spending six months or nine months having an absolutely terrible time while pregnant. It just feels totally unreasonable to me.” | | 21:42 | Rob | “From 2016 through 2023... the rate of decline increased by 4.5 fold... people have had to really update their projections...” | | 41:30 | Rob | “In the 18th century, it was not at all common... that parents would be playing games with their children.. families were much larger.” | | 56:34 | Rob | “We should give kind of equal regard to the preferences and the wellbeing of parents and children.” | | 80:27 | Rob | “Children develop completely fine... as long as they do have an attentive, concerned parent... it’s sufficient to have a very positive relationship.” | | 94:08 | Rob | “It has reduced my productivity... maybe 20% or something like that. It’s pretty meaningful.” | | 100:06 | Rob | “If the world were good, if the world was solved, I would have had no interest in accomplishing stuff...You work in order to solve a problem. You don’t invent problems in order to have work to do.” | | 115:40 | Rob | “Maybe that's like a bad sign about me. Maybe we are failing. But no, I think we're doing an okay job.” |

Key Timestamps

• [02:10]-[05:35]: Luisa on deciding to have children and her challenging pregnancy
• [09:53]-[13:21]: Rob on parenting expectations, differences by phase, and personality of his son
• [21:42]-[23:39]: Global fertility decline explained
• [29:42]-[37:51]: Causes of low fertility: cost, time, relationships, norms
• [39:24]-[45:07]: The rise of intensive parenting; childhood then vs. now
• [56:02]-[57:54]: Why it’s OK to balance parent and child’s happiness
• [60:19]-[68:00]: What’s possible (and not) via policy for fertility
• [72:28]-[80:27]: Experiences with childcare, guilt, attachment concerns
• [94:08]-[99:17]: Work productivity, AI future, and changing aims for children
• [108:00]-[109:53]: What can actually harm a child (and what probably won’t)
• [110:03]-[111:36]: Parenting highs and lows

Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced, evidence-based, and often refreshingly honest look at both modern parenting and the broader fertility crisis. Rob and Luisa challenge prevailing norms—reminding listeners that parenting standards are not set in stone, and that the wellbeing of parents matters too. The discussion is particularly rich for those considering parenthood, working to reconcile career and family, or simply curious about how historical change has shaped our most personal decisions.