← 99% Invisible
99% Invisible
Get Played with Roman Mars and Ben Brock Johnson
00:43:24
In anticipation of the release of Hidden Levels, Roman and Ben join Heather Anne Campbell (Rick and Morty) and Matt Apodaca of Get Played to talk controllers, culture, and why video games might just be running the world.
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- [00:00]
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- [00:51]
Roman Mars
Hello, beautiful nerds. I am so excited about our new mini series, Hidden Levels. It's a six part show about how video games left the arcade and started reshaping the real world. We made it in partnership with WBUR's Endless Thread and it's co hosted and created by Ben Brock Johnson. The show launches wide on both the 99 PI and Endless Thread feeds on Tuesday, October 7th. But if you're already a Sirius XM podcast plus subscriber, the first two episodes are already waiting for you right now. Ben and I wanted to get the word out about the show to video gamers everywhere. So we went on the great Get Played podcast to talk with hosts Heather Ann Campbell and Matt Apodaca. And it was such a great conversation and they were such gracious hosts that we wanted to share that conversation with 99 PI listeners. You'll hear about how Ben came up with the idea for the series and a sneak peek at some of the things that we'll be covering. And as the kids say, a whole lot of new Roman Mars lore gets dropped. So if you're ever curious about what I was doing from around 1997 to 1999 and what it has to do with video games, stay tuned.
- [01:56]
Matt Apodaca
Let's go. All right, well, Heather, why don't we introduce our guests?
- [02:02]
Heather Anne Campbell
Okay, Matt, let's do it.
- [02:03]
Matt Apodaca
Okay. From the podcast 99 Invisible and WBUR and their new series, Hidden Levels.
- [02:11]
Heather Anne Campbell
Hidden Levels? What could that be about?
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Matt Apodaca
Well, I'll tell you. It explores the impact of video games on modern culture. It's Roman Mars and Ben Brock Johnson. What's up, guys?
- [02:18]
Heather Anne Campbell
Hi, guys.
- [02:19]
Ben Brock Johnson
Hey.
- [02:20]
Roman Mars
Hey.
- [02:20]
Heather Anne Campbell
Welcome. Welcome to the show.
- [02:22]
Matt Apodaca
Welcome. Welcome to Get Played the show. Look, this is like, we're actually. We're doing the show in a very serious way now.
- [02:28]
Heather Anne Campbell
We sound so professional. And normally none of this tone is present.
- [02:32]
Matt Apodaca
No, no. Everyone is like, this is false.
- [02:35]
Heather Anne Campbell
Yeah, yeah.
- [02:35]
Matt Apodaca
This is not true.
- [02:36]
Heather Anne Campbell
This is not.
- [02:37]
Matt Apodaca
There's an artifice here.
- [02:39]
Heather Anne Campbell
Matt and Heather have been replaced with AI.
- [02:41]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah.
- [02:41]
Heather Anne Campbell
They've got, like, just avatars doing the show.
- [02:43]
Matt Apodaca
I was just sitting with my fingers, like, laced.
- [02:46]
Heather Anne Campbell
Yeah.
- [02:47]
Matt Apodaca
In the.
- [02:47]
Roman Mars
In the hand.
- [02:48]
Heather Anne Campbell
Little Gendo from Evangelion.
- [02:53]
Matt Apodaca
I was being Gendo from Evangelion. Get in the robot. Yeah, Roman, get in the robot. Thanks for being here, you guys. So you guys have a new podcast series that's coming out. You said the street date was October 7th. Why don't you tell us a little bit about hidden levels?
- [03:07]
Roman Mars
Go for it, Ben.
- [03:08]
Ben Brock Johnson
All right. Well, hidden levels is something that I started talking to Roman and his team about. About a year ago.
- [03:14]
Matt Apodaca
Wow.
- [03:15]
Ben Brock Johnson
And it came out of this thing that I was seeing. And look, this is going to be a statement of the obvious for you and your audience. Right. Like, video impact the world beyond video games. And I think it's. It's one of those things that people who are in gaming and who play video games, they know they see it all the time as they walk through the world. They see things that they recognize as coming from their culture and. And the world that they inhabit when they play games. But I think a lot of people who don't know video gaming as well or don't play games don't see that stuff and don't recognize it as. As easily. And, you know, I've always been a huge fan of Roman Show. I make a show about the Internet called Endless Thread for WBR radio station in Boston, and always been a huge fan of Roman's show. And Roman show, which Roman will introduce better than me, is all about the, you know, the. The architecture and design in the world that you don't see, but is hugely important and has an impact beyond its creators. So it just kind of felt like a match made in. In. In a video game dungeon. And we went from there.
- [04:18]
Heather Anne Campbell
It's, It's, It's. It's neat to hear you say that, like, video games have become sort of like you ubiquitously infused into culture because there was a time in certainly our lifetimes when that wasn't the case. And now you will see video game language on, like, a billboard. You'll see things that say, like, level up your workout. And leveling up was once a thing that was in an Instruction booklet for Super Mario Brothers. Like, you would have to be like, you'd have to learn the, the vocabulary and then understand it on your television and tell your friends at recess. And now these are just, they're sort of like permafrost on reality now.
- [05:00]
Roman Mars
Yeah, I mean they're really, they're, they're almost mundane in every day is part of the thing. They're not like notable. And that's sort of what. That's sort of the bailiwick of 99% invisible. It's about, you know, the design that is part of the built world that becomes so ordinary. Doorknobs, sewer covers, you know, like, you know, and, and, and all of a sudden like looking at them deeply and going, oh, there's a story in that, like somebody made that a decision there and they designed something and we're interacting with it every day. And video games are just ripe for this because the way that they've infiltrated, you know, real life and, and back and forth and they communicate and it's just, it's, it's huge and it's rich. And we had, you know, we have six stories in this series, but there's like hundreds more like we could possibly do.
- [05:47]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah, I gu. There's, it's a, it's a six episode miniseries. Right. And so there's six different stories. Do they all sort of like follow like a similar trajectory? Do they intersect in any sort of way? Or like, are all these things kind of like on their own island? As, as far as like impact?
- [06:01]
Ben Brock Johnson
I would say, like, it's a little bit of both. You know, they, they. I think we found in making the series that they, they led into each other really well. You know, we have an episode about a very famous sports game that I think the sounds of which you will recognize and the way that story ends with Boom Shakalaka, shall we say, had us starting to talk about, interestingly enough, just joysticks and the ways that we control these games. And that leads into a story, for instance, about the hardware that we use to control these games and how that hardware has itself influenced all these other parts of the world that are not specifically or exclusively about gaming. Is that Roman, would you say that's fair? It's not serialized, but it's.
- [06:50]
Roman Mars
You can, you can listen to each episode on its own, but because the world is so connected, you know, like they, they kind of talk to each other and it was, it was becoming clear as we were putting them together, like, oh, this is the right order to speak, you Know, speak about the man, you know, just. Just because it, you know, like, it.
- [07:05]
Matt Apodaca
Right.
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Roman Mars
It set up those connections kind of nicely.
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Heather Anne Campbell
Right. Like, you're talking about controllers. Like, I think before video games, people used to have to fly planes by pulling these different ropes.
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Matt Apodaca
Yeah.
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Heather Anne Campbell
And then they saw the joysticks, and they were like, you know, this could make flying a lot easier.
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Roman Mars
Stay tuned. Episode two. You're going to have the full story because we trace Emery, like, traces the whole, like, evolution of a joystick part. The plane is involved, you know.
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Heather Anne Campbell
Oh, really?
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Roman Mars
War games are involved?
- [07:36]
Matt Apodaca
Well, I was going to say it's interesting that airplanes was the thing that you. You. You pegged there, because I was just thinking, based on using a video game controller and, like, playing games where you have to fly planes, like, you know, flight simulator or even, like, you know, the Rogue Squadron, the Star wars flying game. I kind of think I could fly a plane. I kind of think I could just do it, having never tried it.
- [08:00]
Heather Anne Campbell
Matt, have I ever told you the story of me flying a plane?
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Matt Apodaca
I think you have, but you have to tell. You have to say it now. Please tell us.
- [08:08]
Heather Anne Campbell
I was in Wisconsin, and they have those, like, you know, like, roadside. Like, get in an airpl that a farmer owns, and he'll take you on a quick.
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Ben Brock Johnson
I mean, I've never seen that myself, but I. I understand Deep enough into.
- [08:20]
Heather Anne Campbell
Wisconsin, there's like, you know, the guys are crop dusters, and they're like, you know, 20 bucks for a ride. And so I got into one of these planes and was like, flying around, and the guy was like, do you want to. You want to fly the plane? And I was like, yes. And so he let me fly the plane. And then he was like, hey, you're pretty good at this crazy thing to learn while letting somebody else fly a plane. And I was like, yeah, I've played a lot of Microsoft flight Simulator. And he's like, yeah, it's kind of the same thing.
- [08:52]
Ben Brock Johnson
I mean, those Microsoft flight simulator, like, folks are for real. I feel like that's.
- [08:58]
Roman Mars
That's.
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Ben Brock Johnson
That's a very. It's close to the real deal.
- [09:01]
Matt Apodaca
Oh, yeah. With like, a full rig.
- [09:02]
Heather Anne Campbell
Yeah, yeah, that's all the full rig, I hear. I. I will say, as much as we like flying planes with sort of like, game input, I've heard that game controllers are really bad at submarines.
- [09:15]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah, I heard something about that, too. Actually. I can't remember what it was, but I sort of do remember some story. I think, if I'm remembering the details correctly, a Submarine.
- [09:26]
Ben Brock Johnson
I'm not sure it was the controller's fault in that situation.
- [09:29]
Matt Apodaca
It certainly wasn't an airtight vessel with no escape. Yeah. Couldn't have been the reason there were human hubris at all. Yeah.
- [09:39]
Ben Brock Johnson
But it is fascinating and I love the story that we do about controllers because. And there's a couple of other stories that we have in the series that talk about this too. And I think Roman said this earlier, these things are talking to each other, right. Like you have this piece of hardware that's really created for an actual massive mechanical machine that people use to traverse the real world and that inspires then a digital world and then that then again goes back and inspires the real world. And I think that's the thing that's. That's really fascinated us when working on this series.
- [10:14]
Heather Anne Campbell
That's really cool.
- [10:15]
Matt Apodaca
Was there anything, I mean, I guess without spoiling any, like, sort of particular.
- [10:20]
Heather Anne Campbell
Story, I mean, just tell us the top five moments of your upcoming series. Just like, just give us all.
- [10:26]
Ben Brock Johnson
I mean, Heather, you sound like you already heard the second episode, so, you know, I don't know. I think somebody leaked it.
- [10:31]
Roman Mars
I don't know.
- [10:34]
Matt Apodaca
I guess, yeah. Was anything in particularly revelatory to you upon learning something? You just never would have even considered a video game being that impactful in the modern sort of world at all.
- [10:48]
Roman Mars
Wow, okay. Well, there's a lot for me, I mean, I thought that the. I mean, what I loved about the joystick one, since we're talking about it, is I cover design a lot and so I think about principles of design. And there's this. There's this concept of affordance, like what a device kind of telegraphs, what you're supposed to do with it just by looking at it, essentially. And so a joystick has an extremely just grokkable affordance. Like, you know that when you want to go up, you push up. When you want to go down, you push down. And so there's that sort of thing. And then, you know, in the world of flat screen touch screen games, a flat screen has no affordance. Like you can do anything with a screen and it becomes less fun to me in many ways. And so there's things like this, like the principles of design that we were able to drill down on that. Even though I've done a show about design for 15 years, I've never really had a good example to describe that to an audience. And so when we were talking about it in editing and it was being reported out by Amri, we were able to Discuss this and bring. So it's just like what was fascinating to me was how fundamental both like, you know, story and thought and theory and design, all is is part of all video games. And it should be obvious because, you know, video games because, I mean, they are completely designed from the ground up. There's no part of it that you're like, there is the earth that I'm going to build on and therefore I have to deal with the earth. The earth is created by somebody's mind. The air is created by somebody's mind. And so everything is thought of. And because of that, there's so many avenues to explore because everyone made a decision about every pix inside of a video game. And that is really. That was just like lit me up in sort of every story in so many ways, because it just is like there's like super smart people making decisions and thinking about things and you just. And what's so great about it in this 99% invisible part of video games is you don't necessarily have to feel the author. You just feel immersed. And that means that they're doing a good job in a lot of ways.
- [12:52]
Heather Anne Campbell
This is why I particularly enjoy animation over Live action is because there's so few accidents in animation. Like, so much of it is just curated choices of design and intent. And that's also a lot of video games, although now there's a lot of emergent play that isn't particularly the designed purpose of the game.
- [13:14]
Matt Apodaca
Right.
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Heather Anne Campbell
And that sort of stuff will like, float to the surface. I had a side question, which is you talking about the looking at an object and knowing what its purpose is. And I think this is probably maybe something you've talked about on your podcast before. But if it isn't, I'm super curious. What is. What do you think are like, what is the most. How do I put this? What's an object that you think is very poorly not a touch screen, but that you look at it and you don't know what it's supposed to do? And it's supposed to do one thing. For example, when I look at a carrot peeler, I am absolutely not thinking, that's so that I can scrape it on a carrot.
- [13:57]
Ben Brock Johnson
I was gonna say pickle picker upper. So like, I feel like we're in the same headspace somehow. You know those things where you like, you gotta like, it's a tongue.
- [14:05]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah.
- [14:06]
Ben Brock Johnson
It's sort of like it looks like a syringe on the back end and on the front end it looks like one of Those claws in the gaming, in the actual. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
- [14:13]
Heather Anne Campbell
I actually didn't know that that was what that was.
- [14:17]
Ben Brock Johnson
Today we learned.
- [14:17]
Heather Anne Campbell
I thought that was for like a tur. I've seen that in a kitchen and I didn't know.
- [14:23]
Matt Apodaca
I also like scratching her back with it.
- [14:27]
Heather Anne Campbell
Picking my pickles. I also think. And this is not because our show is for. And made by stupid people.
- [14:38]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah.
- [14:40]
Heather Anne Campbell
Toilets are not like, they don't necessarily say what they are.
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Matt Apodaca
You wouldn't necessarily know that you have to do that. Right.
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Heather Anne Campbell
Because you wouldn't be like, oh, I should go over there and empty into the water.
- [14:52]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah.
- [14:52]
Heather Anne Campbell
Like you would. You would look at it and you would think, is this a kind of bathing apparatus? Do I put my foot in here to clean it?
- [15:00]
Matt Apodaca
Or you see water and you. If you had not. If you would just be. Drink this.
- [15:05]
Ben Brock Johnson
Yeah. I mean, my cat thinks that. My cat thinks that. Yeah, sure.
- [15:09]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely romantic.
- [15:11]
Ben Brock Johnson
If the toilet has 40 buttons on it, it's. Then it gets really dangerous and, you.
- [15:16]
Matt Apodaca
Know, I'm going to push all of them so I can learn exactly what the buttons do and then be horrified by the results every now and then.
- [15:22]
Ben Brock Johnson
Just like the elevator y.
- [15:25]
Roman Mars
I think the sort of plurality of smart devices have terrible affordance and you don't know how to use them and you have to read instructions on how to get them. And one of the things that makes things. I mean, I would argue not to disagree greatly with the carrot peeler thing. If you had a carrot peeler, I think you quickly learned that it peeled, you would see it and go, like, here's what I'm handing.
- [15:49]
Ben Brock Johnson
One way or the other. One way or the other.
- [15:54]
Roman Mars
But I like to think about this as, like, I think everyone's had this experience. When you've lived in a house for maybe 20 years and you still don't know which knob goes to which burner on your stove. That's a type of weird, bad design that is like. It's like, you shouldn't have to think about it. Or like, if you have a bank of light switches and you have some kind of mnemonic as to which socket it goes to, those represent, you know, design fails. And I think a lot of us take those things on as, like, I'm so dumb I can't remember what light switch goes to which socket. But really, those are bad design decisions. And they. They don't represent, you know, they don't sort of like, exhibit good design. That would. That would sort of like, you would Normally have to set that up so you wouldn't get confused. And that's the way to do that. Yeah.
- [16:39]
Heather Anne Campbell
So would you say that in terms of video game design and then real world design that your interests lie in more skeuomorphic design choices? Or are you. Do you find that trying to translate, like looking at an icon for a tape recorder on a screen doesn't tell you the story that you are supposed to push that button in order to make the recording start? Because also you have dissociated so much from what a tape recorder is. Like, how do you have a way to make game design better?
- [17:13]
Ben Brock Johnson
Yeah, yeah.
- [17:15]
Roman Mars
I honestly don't. But I mean, I can tell you like, you know, I think that these sort of, you know, these, these kind of things like skeuomorphisms that, that sort of lead people because they, because you know, the real world analog and therefore you know how to do them inside of a digital space. You know, they have their role especially during the transitional phase of, of getting used to a digital space. But I think at this point there is like, there's no point in putting like an analog, you know, reel to reel in front of my kid on icon and, and have them have that make sense to them. So like that. I think that design language, you know, just evolves over time for sure.
- [17:52]
Ben Brock Johnson
And maybe, maybe this is a different kind of thing when we're talking about design. But I. One thing that I'm amazed at, you know, I'm. I'm 45, right. So like I. The first games that I played were arcade games and Nintendo games. And I remember games that were. They took forever and so long to figure out how to use, how to like move the player, how to move the sprite, whatever. And just like, you know, I think of a game like, well, this is a new example. But like Cuphead, if you know that game.
- [18:21]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah.
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Ben Brock Johnson
And like that I don't think, I think I've still not made it past the first level of that game. Like that's a hard, that's a hard game.
- [18:29]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah.
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Ben Brock Johnson
But it's sort of, I feel like it's calling back to some of those games where you, you just really. It didn't sort of push you forward, the game didn't pull you forward in the way that games do now where like you're immediately immersed in the space that you're playing in and you're just getting these directives one at a time like, like press X to pick up the gun. You know what I mean? Like there's a, there's a way in which the game is communicating with you as a player. That is, I feel much better now than it used to be. Where they used to be kind of like esoteric and hard to get into in some ways. And now it's like it's kind of dummy proof some of the way that the games communicate with you as you like move into the environment, if that makes sense.
- [19:10]
Matt Apodaca
Sorry, I was going to say so much literacy for video games in general comes from, from your predetermined knowledge of video. You have to like, I don't think somebody could pick up like the Last of Us two, for example, having never played a video game before and be like, this is easy to me because there's so many things you sort of do have to know. Like that the left joystick moves your person and then the right joystick moves your field of vision. And that's like you're sort of learning to sort of pat your head and rub your tummy at the same time kind of with some of the these things.
- [19:44]
Ben Brock Johnson
Totally.
- [19:45]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah. But like if you know how to play a video game, chances are you're gonna know how to play a different video game pretty easily. Yeah, yeah.
- [19:53]
Heather Anne Campbell
There's also a lot of vestigial stuff that has just become the vocabulary of games. Like for example, there's ammo in barrels.
- [20:01]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah.
- [20:02]
Heather Anne Campbell
And it used to be. Well, but, but, but I like if.
- [20:05]
Ben Brock Johnson
You look at like, which is not real life by the way, that's not how that works in real life.
- [20:12]
Heather Anne Campbell
But it, but it comes from a time when you're playing these side scrolling fighting games and there isn't a lot of information on screen and perhaps you're walking through a city and there are trash cans rendered in pixels on the, on the screen. And so you know, oh, I can punch those trash cans. And when you punch the trash cans, sometimes you'll get a food item that will help your character get their life back. And so you'll punch a trash can and a turkey will come out and you'll be like, oh, I can I now I can get better.
- [20:41]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah.
- [20:42]
Heather Anne Campbell
But all of that legacy has then gone all the way to effectively Last of Us Part two.
- [20:48]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah.
- [20:49]
Heather Anne Campbell
Where you're like smashing in the environment to try and find ammunition for your character.
- [20:54]
Matt Apodaca
Good medicine in a way that you.
- [20:56]
Heather Anne Campbell
Absolutely never would interact with reality.
- [20:59]
Roman Mars
No.
- [20:59]
Heather Anne Campbell
And all of that is sort of an assumed knowledge on part of the developers. That is then you know, like you can't, like people can watch any movie as their first movie tech, like generally.
- [21:13]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah, sure. Some that probably shouldn't be your first.
- [21:16]
Heather Anne Campbell
Right, right. But you can. You, you don't have to like, there's not a ton, like dogs watch movies now. There's all the tick tocks of like people like dogs watching the Lion King and under and following it.
- [21:26]
Matt Apodaca
And I'm like, are they following it? Well, yeah, because they, they're like getting the. They're getting Simba's arc.
- [21:32]
Heather Anne Campbell
They are definitely getting Simba's arc because when, when. Who's the. Scar.
- [21:37]
Matt Apodaca
Scar.
- [21:38]
Heather Anne Campbell
Scars on screen. They'll bark at Scar because he's hurt somebody earlier. So the dog is following it and I'm like, how does the dog understand what an edit is? How is it like the lion is over there and then the lion's over. Anyway, all this is a digression to.
- [21:52]
Ben Brock Johnson
Say that nine out of ten dogs hate Scar. That is true.
- [21:55]
Matt Apodaca
That is true.
- [21:56]
Roman Mars
They don't.
- [21:57]
Heather Anne Campbell
Well, I got lost.
- [21:58]
Matt Apodaca
Scar a cat. Scar's a cat, right?
- [22:00]
Heather Anne Campbell
Yeah, they all hate the cat.
- [22:01]
Matt Apodaca
Dogs don't like that.
- [22:07]
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- [22:16]
Matt Apodaca
I need a coffee.
- [22:17]
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- [23:52]
Alie Ward
Alie Ward here and I make a podcast called Ologies which explores a different ology every week by interviewing ologists who passionately study really weird stuff so you will come away with useful information such as a pumpkin, believe it or not, is a berry.
- [24:08]
Ben Brock Johnson
Oh, what a ho hum.
- [24:10]
Alie Ward
Day gets exciting when ologists reveal the wonder of the things all around us.
- [24:15]
Roman Mars
Making coffee is like a chemistry experiment people do in their kitchen every morning, which somehow creates this extraction that brings joy.
- [24:22]
Alie Ward
There's no question we don't ask have you ever been slapped by a penguin?
- [24:26]
Matt Apodaca
Oh yeah.
- [24:26]
Heather Anne Campbell
Does it hurt?
- [24:27]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah.
- [24:28]
Alie Ward
Attention deficit neuropsychology.
- [24:30]
Roman Mars
Let's do it. You just have to sit back and go, wow, I had no idea. At the level of complexity, we also.
- [24:37]
Alie Ward
Have simologies episodes that are kid safe. We have peeled them off into their own feed. So come and explore Ologies a deep, not always safe for work. Dive into niche fields and a place where it's okay to ask smart people not smart questions. Subscribe now and never miss an episode of.
- [24:55]
Matt Apodaca
Let'S. Let's get into like your just your histories with gaming in general. We got a little bit of. Of bends there, but let's. Let's get into it just a little bit deeper. Where are you guys at with games like today I guess is a. Is a good jumping off point.
- [25:07]
Heather Anne Campbell
Yeah. What's your rank in Fortnite.
- [25:12]
Ben Brock Johnson
Man? Barely. Barely, barely survives five. I mean Fortnite. My, my experience in Fortnite. Fortnite's one of those games where I can. I. I think it's gotten better at matching. Right. Like I used it when I first started playing Fortnite and maybe I've gotten better too, hopefully. But when I first started playing it was like two minutes of me screaming and then starting over. Do you know what I mean? Like I was just like running and hiding and then starting over. I I will say that I put, you know, really my, my gaming is. Is these days about connection. I really like talking to my good friends across the country who I, who I don't see anymore. You know, own lives. I have my own life. They, you know, their parents. I'm a parent. So one of the ways that I connect with Them is we play games together and, and we learn the lore together and we, you know, we spend a couple hours every week doing that. And that's really wonderful. And, and it's really, it's really less about the grind and more about talking to each other. And, you know, we've basically had group therapy sessions, you know, talking to each other as we've gone through life challenges. And, and a lot of what we do these days is a sort of second screen activity or you're doing a couple things at the same time. And, and I don't know if that's bad or good, but I just know that like, my buddies and I, we talk every week and that's, that's meaningful to me. And so I play Helldiver as I play. We just started playing Diablo 4. I. We played like every Sniper Elite because one of my buddies is just obsessed with sniping and that's what he loves to do. I, I played Generation Z. I liked that game a lot because of the crafting and just like moving through that sort of post apocalyptic fighting robots world, which is, you know, that's a classic trope and it works. But mostly I just do it for fun. I mean, we've tried to play weirder, odder games, but we have a kind of split. Half of the group is like, I just want to shoot guns. And half of the group is like, no, let's do something weird and interesting with games. And so sometimes we fight about that, but generally for me, it's just a place to connect and a way to connect and blow off steam.
- [27:22]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah. And Roman, am I correct? You're a bit of a lapsed gamer, would you say?
- [27:27]
Roman Mars
Yeah, I don't know if I was ever really a gamer as such. I mean, I don't do much gaming today. I kind of do passive, like, tower defense type games. When I'm listening, I have to listen to a lot of audio for my job. And so I need something that doesn't really require good timing. You know, that is something I can do while I'm doing something else. And so I love tower defense games and I play some fitness games like on an Oculus, because I love to box and stuff like this. And I, I injured my back boxing for real. When I punch stuff, like solid things.
- [28:01]
Ben Brock Johnson
Is it a trash can? Were you trying to find a turkey in a trash can?
- [28:04]
Roman Mars
No, I wish, but there are no turkeys anywhere. I've tried.
- [28:11]
Matt Apodaca
Just wait, wait a couple months. There's gonna be turkeys everywhere.
- [28:14]
Roman Mars
That's true. That's true. So I love like Supernatural. I love like doing stuff like that. It's pretty, it's pretty fun for me. But my history is strange. I, you know, I, I was involved in the development of some of the first voice chat in gaming in the 90s.
- [28:30]
Heather Anne Campbell
Wow.
- [28:31]
Roman Mars
And so I had a friend who I went to college with and he developed this app called Roger Wilco. It was a standalone application that was behind your Baldur's Gate or your Dune or your Tribes. And it ran on a 28.8 modem. It was super clean and, and beautifully done. And I was the first QA tester for the company. And so I played a lot of early multiplayer games like that. And, and, and in fact, selling that, it was funny. It's like selling that company is what paid for my three year internship in public radio that led me into being a podcaster.
- [29:11]
Matt Apodaca
Wow. Wow.
- [29:12]
Ben Brock Johnson
I didn't know that. Talk about learning the lore.
- [29:14]
Matt Apodaca
Cool.
- [29:15]
Roman Mars
So. So, yeah, so our early. So I used to test games. So I played games like hours and hours with Roger Wilco running underneath it just to see if it works and if, you know, all the technology works. And so that's what I did for, you know, like mid late 90s. Yeah.
- [29:29]
Matt Apodaca
Do you, from that time, do you remember a game that you were like this? I like. It didn't feel like work kind of that you were like, I'm actually enjoying this one.
- [29:37]
Roman Mars
It's Tribes. I was a sniper in the renegade mod of Tribes and I could come onto a server and I could clear it because I just killed. I would just annihilate and people would just leave as soon as they saw me, my name show up and I began to have to like come in with different names so that they would play longer. But yeah, if anyone knows Tribes, that was like, that was, that was totally my game. I would get into that one beyond.
- [30:03]
Heather Anne Campbell
I love it.
- [30:05]
Roman Mars
Mendel. I was a genetics PhD student, so I went by Mendel usually.
- [30:10]
Heather Anne Campbell
And if you're, if you're this good at sniping and you don't come on as Mendel, I love the moment on a server when people are like, oh, Raspberry Ghost is Mendel.
- [30:29]
Roman Mars
I used to frustrate a lot, excuse me, of cheating and stuff like this. It was really like, I'm just good. I'm just great at this.
- [30:37]
Heather Anne Campbell
You could be mental. I wanna. Because I also, I love to box. I'm also a boxer. What is your VR boxing app of choice?
- [30:48]
Roman Mars
I do Supernatural. I like that one because I like Supernatural. I like the music. It's Mesa. It's not. And I've done. What is the fight for? I don't know. There's another one that's actually a video game game like that. We have an opponent. I've played that one too, and it wears me out. That's great. And they're mainly like fitness games. They're not so much like. Or fitness apps. They're not so much just like a boxing game. So much. Yeah, yeah.
- [31:11]
Ben Brock Johnson
But they're probably gamified. Right. Which is another example of how the world changes or the video game world changes the rest of the world. Right?
- [31:20]
Roman Mars
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. No, it really helped. It really is motivating, for sure. And teaches you patterns and stuff like that. And it's good. It mainly just sort of gets me moving. I don't quite have the constitution to sit and play a game anymore. I kind of. That's just not how I'm wired anymore. Even when I watch tv, I walk on a treadmill most of the time. And so. So fitness gaming is sort of my version of just like moving and playing games at the same time.
- [31:46]
Matt Apodaca
To the tower defense aspect of your gaming, though, I don't play a lot of those games though. But like, I could see like a game like that being a good second thing you're doing while like, you know, listening to. You know, I have edited my own voice for a long time too, so like, whatever is getting me focused on not hearing my own voice and you know how horrible I see sound when I. When I speak. I'll enjoy another activity as well, but I get. I get distracted because the things the games that I pick are going to be like. Like. Like Hollow Knight, Silksong or like Elden Ring or something where I have to be so focused on the actions of what's going on. But like a tower defense thing, it's like a set it and forget it type of thing. What's the appeal for your. For you there?
- [32:34]
Roman Mars
Yeah, I mean, it's basically that it's like you can. There's a little bit of timing involved usually as it gets to the upper levels or whatever. But. But like your precise sort of Metroid style, timing is not required. And so it's just sort of like you have to kind of be a present. And I just find that it actually kind of helps me focus because I can drift listening. I have to listen to hours and hours of people talking in terms of raw tape of people talking. I listen to a ton of podcasts and I listen to a lot of Books on tape in quotes from my job to prepare for interviews. And I used to do this when I worked at wbur. I worked at WBEZ in Chicago. And I used to sit at my desk and one of my jobs was listening to audio documentaries all day long. And I sit at my desk, play solitaire and people would walk by and I actually had a manager sort of make fun of me, like complain that I was playing a game all day instead of doing my job. And it was like, I need this to do my job. I am listening to this stuff. And if I was just listening, I would doze off, I would lose focus. So I started using games then to sort of like to, to sort of keep my ears open. Actually.
- [33:48]
Matt Apodaca
I've only ever been able to play video games at one job, I guess if you don't count this one. But we don't play video games when we're doing this. We could, we should, it'd be more interesting.
- [33:56]
Heather Anne Campbell
I mean people are constantly asking us to do the thing that you're saying right now. Which is why, why don't you guys live stream your games? And it's. For me it's that speaking while gaming is almost impossible, like, like, like I can't, can't, I can't play a guitar and, and talk.
- [34:14]
Matt Apodaca
Another avenue of perception too. I just don't need it.
- [34:17]
Heather Anne Campbell
Terrible.
- [34:18]
Matt Apodaca
But I, I worked at a, I worked at a restaurant in their office taking reservations. And so it was a nice Michelin star restaurant in town, I'll say it, where it was afterward. And Burger King, it was at Burger King. And I had time. Is that, Yeah, I was with that, that the chef's name I think is Peter Pickle or something. But I, I would bring my switch to work and like I was like, I'm really testing the limits of what I'm allowed to do here, I think because this, I'm very obviously playing a video game, but my job is to answer the phone and put in a reservation on a computer if somebody calls to make the reservation, right. And then I'm calling people confirming reservations. But apart from that I'm sitting at a desk for hours. There's not another facet to that job. So I was like, I have to do something or I'm just never gonna come back here. Then you're just trapped, not doing anything. And so I started to bring my switch to work and also I'm working at night, right? The restaurant closes at 11. So from like 9 to like 11 o', clock, nobody's calling to make a Dinner reserv. I'm just chilling and getting paid and playing Breath of the Wild. It was like. Actually, I think about that time a lot. I had less going for me.
- [35:47]
Heather Anne Campbell
You had it good.
- [35:48]
Matt Apodaca
But that was. That was good. That was really, really nice.
- [35:51]
Ben Brock Johnson
It's really funny how memories like that can just. Of playing games can just be so powerful and sort of like remind you of a time in your life. I feel like that's. Yeah. I don't know. I just. Like when you were describing that, I was. I know exactly what you mean where you're like, maybe it wasn't the best job or the best situation, but like 9:00pm to 11:00pm man, you were free to.
- [36:14]
Matt Apodaca
I was just hanging out. But I couldn't leave in case somebody called. Right. They couldn't call me off because what if somebody does call? Did want to call or something? They couldn't. They can't have somebody else doing that. Yeah, they already. They're doing something more important.
- [36:29]
Ben Brock Johnson
But if you were VR boxing, maybe that would not fly. But I feel like, switch.
- [36:34]
Roman Mars
Take the thing off and it's just like, sweaty.
- [36:36]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah. If I had brought my Dance Dance Revolution rig to the office. Probably not. Probably not a good idea. Are you familiar with the VR game Superhot?
- [36:48]
Roman Mars
Yeah. Yeah.
- [36:48]
Matt Apodaca
It's a game where you're like John Wick, basically, like, dodging like. Or, you know, I guess Neo more like. You're a Keanu Reeves type character in this game and you're like dodging bullets and like throwing knives and stuff. That would not be great for.
- [37:02]
Roman Mars
That's a very fun game. I played that one for sure. Rules.
- [37:06]
Matt Apodaca
So, so fun. Ben, we do have to talk about this. Your name on the. On the chat right now is Battletoads. Ben.
- [37:14]
Heather Anne Campbell
Battle Toad.
- [37:15]
Matt Apodaca
And we did talk about this a little bit. I did ask you who your favorite battle toad is, and you did say zit, and that's the only correct answer. I think wart's tough. What's the other one? I don't remember what. I remember Wart. What's that?
- [37:27]
Heather Anne Campbell
Isn't it wart? Rash?
- [37:29]
Matt Apodaca
Rash. I was about to say one of them was piss. And it's not piss. Like, if it was piss, you'd buy it. You're sort of like, guess one of them is pissed.
- [37:39]
Heather Anne Campbell
You would. You would not buy it because you were the child.
- [37:41]
Matt Apodaca
They're all skin conditions and your.
- [37:43]
Heather Anne Campbell
And your parents definitely wouldn't buy you a game where it's like zit and rash and piss.
- [37:52]
Ben Brock Johnson
Yeah, Battle toad's much more. Yeah, yeah.
- [37:55]
Matt Apodaca
They should. This is a free idea to anybody making a video game. Then as soon as you name your character piss, I'm buying the game. Doesn't matter what kind of game it is. I'm there.
- [38:02]
Ben Brock Johnson
But I was so excited when, when I was, you know, I, I've. I've recently discovered the show and have become a listener, so.
- [38:09]
Matt Apodaca
Oh, than.
- [38:10]
Ben Brock Johnson
I love what you all do and the joy with which you do it. And I, But I, but you have like a, you have like a deep. You, you got a deep catalog. And I discovered that you have a Battletoads episode, I think, or the show has a Battletoads episode.
- [38:26]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah, I'll send it to you. I think it's behind a paywall, but I'll get that over to you.
- [38:30]
Ben Brock Johnson
Oh my God, I would love to listen to it because that was one of those games that again, like, there was a period of. And I should say, like, I tell a lot of. I've told a lot of people. I think I've said this to Roman. When I was growing up, my parents wouldn't let me have a Nintendo. They wouldn't let me play video games until I was, you know, maybe 12, 14 years old. So I was always. I was the kid who would come over to your house and you'd be like, hey, let's play outside. And I'd be like, hey, man, take me to the basement. Show me the Nintendo. And like, if you have snacks, that's cool. And if you want to leave me there, that's also cool.
- [39:00]
Roman Mars
I just need.
- [39:01]
Ben Brock Johnson
Need. Yeah, please. I, I gotta have it.
- [39:03]
Matt Apodaca
So your hands gripping tighter and tighter around his neck.
- [39:08]
Ben Brock Johnson
Show me where it is, man.
- [39:09]
Matt Apodaca
Please.
- [39:10]
Ben Brock Johnson
But like, but Battletoads was one of those early games that I played and, and I recently, I, I guess I was like poking around about this and realized it's, it's also like, connected to Double Dragon, right? Like, there was a combo version of the game.
- [39:24]
Heather Anne Campbell
I think there was Battletoads versus Double Dragon where they all teamed up. Or Battletoads X Double Dragon. Yes, you're. You're not incorrect. This is a game fair.
- [39:35]
Ben Brock Johnson
And, and, and, and so like, but what, What I remember of Battletoads was it was a super hard game. I mean, I was, you know, I was maybe nine. But like, it, it was such a hard game and it was again, one of those games where you, you, you. I never progressed past. There was like a, There's a level where you're, you're like on a surfboard. Or maybe it's more like it's a, like you're, you're jumping over the, the.
- [40:00]
Heather Anne Campbell
Flash for like a half second before they arrive on screen.
- [40:04]
Ben Brock Johnson
Yes. And, and I just, that's one of those games that has like a sense memory for me where I just, I, I can, I can, I can remember the, you know, the Doritos dust on my fingertips and the sweat of like trying to get past that level. And I don't know if I ever did, but I, I loved that game. That was great. Great game.
- [40:26]
Heather Anne Campbell
It's, it's funny that talking about your parents not letting you play video games reminds me of a very sort of semi famous in gaming circles, Far side comic from the 90s, or like maybe it was late 80s where it's a kid playing video games and the parents are daydreaming of a career in video games. And the joke is that'll never happen. Because like that's what the far side is saying is, oh, that'll never happen. These guys are all idiots. Idiots. And now you can make so much money.
- [40:59]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah.
- [40:59]
Heather Anne Campbell
Playing video games that the comic doesn't make sense.
- [41:02]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah.
- [41:04]
Heather Anne Campbell
The joke doesn't work.
- [41:05]
Matt Apodaca
You can make a lot of money. You can affect politics in a very particular way.
- [41:11]
Ben Brock Johnson
Yeah.
- [41:12]
Matt Apodaca
It's all very interesting.
- [41:13]
Heather Anne Campbell
Yeah.
- [41:14]
Ben Brock Johnson
Yes. Sometimes too interesting.
- [41:16]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah, it's a little too interesting. Like actually, everybody calm down stuff actually.
- [41:21]
Heather Anne Campbell
Yeah.
- [41:23]
Matt Apodaca
Well, guys, before we get you out of here, I guess, I don't know if this is necessarily spoiling or could spoil, but I have, I guess another question just about video games and their impact on society at large.
- [41:35]
Ben Brock Johnson
Yeah.
- [41:36]
Matt Apodaca
Good or bad?
- [41:41]
Ben Brock Johnson
One word answer. Bye. Just kidding. No, no, I think like, I, well, what I would say is so my, I have twins who are 8 years old. My son is 8 years old. He is, he's, he's, he loves Minecraft.
- [42:00]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah.
- [42:00]
Ben Brock Johnson
He loves, he, he loves the Harry Potter game. I, I have mixed feelings about, I don't know, I have a mixed, mixed feelings about the creator of Harry Potter, but my son loves that game. I, I think that, that games like Dungeons and Dragons for instance, which you know, inspired a lot of video games, they do teach you to number one, solve problems and number two, like have a safe space to try to solve problems and fail and try again. And I think that they can lead you, especially in the case of, of things like Minecraft, they can lead you to be really creative native. Right. I also think that they are, you know, I mean this is going to maybe sound ridiculous to some of your listeners because who, who, you know, whoever bought the Latest, you know, PS5 Pro or whatever. But, like, they are also, like, relatively cheap. Like, you can. You can access games relatively cheaply. And. And I think having an interactive form of entertainment that you can. That is, you know, relatively democratized, both in terms of playing, but also in terms of, like, the fact that you can build games more easily. That's. That's a good thing. I think where it gets problematic is when we, you know, I think when we allow any sort of tech company to. To not have any kind of consequences for, you know, whatever, like, fomenting hate or, you know, and I think, you know, game companies have gotten better at policing this stuff, I guess. Guess. And, you know, maybe I shouldn't even use the word policing. I think it's complicated.
- [43:49]
Matt Apodaca
No, for sure. Yeah.
- [43:50]
Ben Brock Johnson
But I think, like, you know, it's. It can be addicting to you, and, like, that's a dangerous zone. And so, you know, limiting your. Limiting your time, I think is, for me, that's an important thing. But ultimately, it's like so much of the technology we use, it can. It can be a positive thing, it can be a negative thing. It's just a tool and it's a technology, and we just have to be. Be intentional and careful and thoughtful and caring in the way that we use it and in the way that we use it together.
- [44:21]
Heather Anne Campbell
Wow. That is the most thoughtful thing ever said on this show.
- [44:25]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah. Truly.
- [44:30]
Ben Brock Johnson
Public radio. What are you gonna do, Isaiah?
- [44:34]
Matt Apodaca
I don't know. I didn't think one of the frogs was called piss.
- [44:37]
Roman Mars
Really.
- [44:38]
Ben Brock Johnson
Yeah, exactly. And my favorite battletoad is zit. Thank you.
- [44:42]
Heather Anne Campbell
Same show where we're like, toilets look like you should drink them.
- [44:48]
Ben Brock Johnson
But I'm curious, like, Roman, what do you think?
- [44:50]
Roman Mars
I feel like, oh, I think good. I don't know. I don't really have. I feel exactly the same as you, but I think the dial is more towards Good. I also just think that you can't sort of argue that the world would be a better or worse place without video games. You just could argue it's just gonna. It would be a completely different world without them.
- [45:07]
Matt Apodaca
Yeah.
- [45:08]
Roman Mars
And that's really the sort of. The sort of the end of it, you know, like, it's just like, they're a huge part. And I think that in addition to, you know, you mentioning, like, there actually are, you know, careers in video games, as evidenced by, like, us being on podcast now, is like, it kind of trains you to think in ways that, you know, are. Are perfect for the modern world in terms of problem solving, in terms of, you know, just like quick thinking and dexterity and the sort of idea of if, then, you know, decisions and complex decisions. And I, you know, I think they're great. I don't know, I have a hard time thinking. I do think that the social aspect of them that can sort of cause issues is the same social aspect that makes social media a problem, that makes, you know, tabloids a problem. Like everything, when you get a bunch of people together, they can get together for nefarious ends as well as great ends. And so that's just part of it all.
- [46:02]
Matt Apodaca
Well, guys, I really enjoyed talking to you guys. Thank you so much for being here with us today. Why don't you guys plug the show again real quick and then we'll get you out.
- [46:12]
Roman Mars
Sure. The six part series is called Hidden Levels. It's about how video games affect the world and it's a co production of 99% invisible, which is my podcast, and Endless Thread, which is Ben Brock Johnson's podcast. And it's going to come out wide on October 7th.
- [46:27]
Ben Brock Johnson
Yeah, we hope you'll listen. Let us know how much we got wrong. Just kidding.
- [46:33]
Matt Apodaca
Guys. Thanks so much.
- [46:34]
Heather Anne Campbell
Yeah, thank you.
- [46:34]
Ben Brock Johnson
Thank you.
- [46:35]
Roman Mars
I really appreciate it.
- [46:36]
Ben Brock Johnson
Yeah, thanks y'.
- [46:37]
Roman Mars
All.
- [46:37]
Ben Brock Johnson
It was great to be with you.
- [46:43]
Roman Mars
You can find get played wherever you get podcasts and there's a link in the show notes. We'll see you Tuesday for episode one of Hidden Levels.
- [47:00]
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- [47:04]
Matt Apodaca
Water?
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