The Return of Con Law

Summary

Podcast Summary: 99% Invisible – "The Return of Con Law"

Released on June 10, 2025

Hosts: Roman Mars and Professor Elizabeth Jo

---

Introduction

In this special extended episode of 99% Invisible, hosts Roman Mars and Professor Elizabeth Jo delve deep into the complexities of constitutional law, particularly focusing on the resurgence and controversial application of the Alien Enemies Act in contemporary politics. The episode not only revisits historical events surrounding the act but also draws parallels to recent governmental actions under the Trump administration, highlighting significant legal battles and their implications for the rule of law in the United States.

---

Historical Context: Zoot Suits and Civil Unrest [01:55 - 08:18]

Professor Elizabeth Jo begins by transporting listeners back to the 1940s, a period marked by World War II and significant domestic upheaval in Los Angeles. She discusses the emergence of the zoot suit as a cultural symbol among Mexican American youth, which inadvertently became a flashpoint for racial tensions and violence.

• Quote: “By 2025 standards, it's actually pretty nice. But in the 1940s, the zoot suit gets a really bad rap.” ([02:06])

Jo explains how President Roosevelt's Executive Order 9066 led to the internment of Japanese Americans, exacerbating labor shortages in agriculture and prompting the U.S. to implement the Bracero Program, bringing millions of Mexican workers to the country. This influx intensified racial tensions, with zoot suits becoming associated with perceived unpatriotic and criminal behavior, culminating in events like the Sleepy Lagoon Trial and the Zoot Suit Riots.

---

The Alien Enemies Act: From History to Modern-Day Application [09:09 - 20:18]

Transitioning from historical events, the conversation shifts to the Alien Enemies Act, a statute from the 18th century that grants the U.S. President the authority to detain or deport non-citizens from hostile nations during times of war.

• Quote: “In plain English, what the act does is to give the President of the United States the power to detain or deport aliens, which is really just the federal law term for non-citizens.” ([09:55])

Professor Jo elucidates the original intent of the Act, emphasizing that it was not designed for mass deportations but as a wartime measure to address national security threats. However, she highlights how former President Trump has reactivated and stretched the Act's provisions to justify widespread deportations under the guise of combating a supposed invasion of illegal aliens.

---

Trump Administration’s Use of the Alien Enemies Act [12:31 - 30:53]

Roman Mars and Professor Jo dissect the Trump administration's aggressive immigration policies, particularly the invocation of the Alien Enemies Act to initiate a mass deportation campaign targeting Venezuelan nationals purportedly linked to the Terrorism Confinement Center (CECON) in El Salvador.

• Quote: “Whenever there is a declared war between the United States and any foreign nation... all natives, citizens, denizens, or subjects of the hostile nation or government shall be liable to be apprehended...” ([09:30])

They discuss President Trump's proclamation labeling Venezuelan gang members as alien enemies, leading to unprecedented ICE raids and deportations without due process. The hosts draw attention to the administration's goal of deporting a million individuals within a year, highlighting the problematic quotas and the incidental detention of non-violent offenders based on superficial indicators like tattoos.

• Notable Incident: The deportation of individuals to SECOT, El Salvador's notorious megaprison, despite court orders halting such actions.

---

Legal Challenges and Supreme Court Involvement [31:34 - 50:29]

The episode delves into the legal battles sparked by the Trump administration's actions. Professor Jo outlines several lawsuits challenging the legitimacy of using the Alien Enemies Act in this manner, emphasizing the judiciary's role in safeguarding constitutional rights.

• Quote: “More than 200 people have been sent by the Trump administration to SEEKOT in El Salvador so far... the entire Trump administration strategy so far seems to have been to rush out a group of Venezuelan nationals based on dubious claims...” ([37:54])

They highlight key court rulings, including the Supreme Court's intervention in cases like JGG v. Trump, where the Court mandated due process even under the Alien Enemies Act, stating that detained individuals must have the opportunity to challenge their deportation.

• Quote: “Even non-citizens are entitled to constitutionally adequate procedures before they're removed from the country.” ([20:18])

The hosts discuss the disturbing precedent set by the Supreme Court's recognition of due process rights, countering the administration's attempts to bypass legal safeguards by pushing deportations beyond U.S. jurisdiction.

---

Case Study: Kilmar Abrego Garcia [41:55 - 46:39]

A poignant case study is presented through the story of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, a Maryland resident falsely accused and deported under the Alien Enemies Act. Despite an immigration judge's 2019 decision granting him asylum, Garcia was abruptly detained and sent to El Salvador without proper legal recourse.

• Quote: “...the court is saying, look, that doesn't matter, because we have this separate set of constitutional traditions...” ([37:54])

Professor Jo details the legal saga, including the Supreme Court's order for Garcia's return and the administration's subsequent inaction, illustrating the erosion of the rule of law and the potential for arbitrary governmental power.

---

Implications for the Constitution and Rule of Law [50:29 - 60:16]

The discussion shifts to the broader implications of these developments on constitutional democracy. Professor Jo expresses grave concerns about the weakening of legal institutions and the potential for any presidential overreach to undermine fundamental rights.

• Quote: “We are in a world where we can't rely on the executive branch following court orders, we're in a very, very bad place.” ([49:55])

Both hosts emphasize the necessity of public awareness and education on constitutional matters to uphold the sanctity of legal protections. They announce the launch of a new monthly series, "What Trump Can Teach Us About Con Law," alongside a Constitution-focused book club aimed at fostering informed citizenry and reinforcing constitutional democracy.

• Quote: “The Constitution is a commitment we make, you know, on a day to day basis.” ([58:40])

---

Conclusion and Future Endeavors [60:16 - End]

Concluding the episode, Roman Mars and Professor Jo reiterate the critical importance of understanding and engaging with the Constitution to prevent the erosion of democratic principles. They invite listeners to join their upcoming book club and educational series, aiming to rekindle collective commitment to constitutional governance.

• Quote: “This is our time to rise up and lend aid and comfort to the Constitution so that this stuff continues on.” ([59:55])

---

Key Takeaways

• The Alien Enemies Act, originally a wartime measure, has been controversially repurposed by the Trump administration to justify mass deportations without due process.
• Legal challenges have begun to restore some constitutional protections, but significant concerns remain regarding executive overreach and the undermining of the rule of law.
• The judiciary has played a pivotal role in limiting the administration's actions, yet cases like that of Kilmar Abrego Garcia illustrate ongoing vulnerabilities.
• Public education and engagement with constitutional law are essential to uphold democratic principles and prevent future abuses of governmental power.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “By 2025 standards, it's actually pretty nice. But in the 1940s, the zoot suit gets a really bad rap.” — Elizabeth Jo ([02:06])
• “In plain English, what the act does is to give the President of the United States the power to detain or deport aliens...” — Elizabeth Jo ([09:55])
• “We have to provide the support. If we want to believe in the system...” — Elizabeth Jo ([58:40])
• “Even non-citizens are entitled to constitutionally adequate procedures before they're removed from the country.” — Roman Mars ([20:18])
• “The Constitution is a commitment we make, you know, on a day to day basis.” — Elizabeth Jo ([58:40])

---

Final Note:
This episode serves as a critical examination of how historical laws can be manipulated to serve contemporary political agendas, emphasizing the necessity for vigilance and education to protect constitutional democracy.

Transcript

[Elizabeth Jo]

Having the right people in your corner for life's biggest milestones makes all the difference. Like a friend who's there when you're house hunting or checking out a new ride, State Farm is there too, helping you choose the coverage you need. With a State Farm agent, you know someone is there to help you along the way. And with so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have help choosing a plan that fits your needs so you can continue celebrating all of life's milestones. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is.

[Roman Mars]

There.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Craftsman days are here at lowes with big savings on the tools you need. Save $100 on the Craftsman V26 Tool Power Tool Combo Kit now at $199. No matter what the project is, Craftsman's high quality, high performance products empower you to build on Stop by your nearest Lowe's store and check out the full line of Craftsman tools today. Valid through 618 while supplies last selection varies by location.

[Roman Mars]

This message is brought to you by Apple Pay. Apple Pay is accepted at millions of places. Literally just tap with iPhone or Apple Watch anywhere you see the contactless symbol. Whether you're around the corner or somewhere new, add a card to wallet and start paying. The Apple Way terms apply. This is 99% invisible. I'm Roman Mars. We heard you, the chorus of voices all asking where is Khan la Where is Elizabeth Jo to guide us through this madness. We need it now more than ever. Well here it is. We're bringing the show back with a special extra long episode. Plus we have an announcement about how the series is going to grow and develop from here. It is very exciting so let's get into it. Oh my goodness. It is Monday, June 2nd at 10am as we record this, what are we going to be talking about today?

[Elizabeth Jo]

Well I thought we'd go back in time and we would start with zoot suits. Are you familiar with the zoot suit Ruan?

[Roman Mars]

Very familiar. I love a good zoot suit.

[Elizabeth Jo]

It's that big suit jacket with wide lapels, huge shoulder pads, high waisted baggy pants that taper toward the bottom. And if you remember the movie who Framed Roger rabbit from the 1980 toon patrol weasels all wore zoot suits. Those are the bad guys. Look Valiant. We got a reliable tip off the rabbit was here and was corrugated by several otters. And the sonning of Roger Rabbit takes us to the right period of time. The 1940s. Now after the United States enters World War II in December of 1941, millions of young men are committed to Military Service. And on February 19, 1942, President Roosevelt issued Executive Order 9066. And that's the infamous order that placed people of Japanese ancestry, including US Citizens, into internment camps. Now, both of these wartime actions resulted in a huge labor shortage, especially in agriculture, because so many Japanese Americans had worked on farms. And one major response the federal government provides is to recruit foreign workers from Mexico. And in 1942, in August, the United States signed an agreement with Mexico to create the Mexican Farm Labor Program Agreement. This would formally allow Mexicans to enter the United States to work on a temporary basis. Now, this arrangement is better known as the Bracero program. Bracero literally means a person who works with their arms, like farm work. And the program would eventually bring millions of Mexican nationals to the United States because it was renewed multiple times now in Los Angeles. This sudden influx of Mexican nationals added to even more problems, and those were the racial tensions brewing in the city. At the time, Mexican Americans were the largest racial minority in Los Angeles. And During World War II, Los Angeles became a major center for military production jobs. And a very large number of military service members are stationed there too. And that draws workers from everywhere and from every background. Whites, African Americans and Mexican Americans. And most of the service members stationed in Los Angeles are white. So you have wartime patriotism suspicions about not just Japanese Americans, but all non whites and zoot suits. And that's where these suits come in. Mexican American teenagers in Southern California had started to adopt a distinct look. Dangling watch chains, pork pie hats, ducktail hairstyles, and zoot suits. Now, the zoot suit seems pretty tame, right? By 2025 standards, it's actually pretty nice. But in the 1940s, the zoot suit gets a really bad rap. In 1942, the war production Board issued regulations to allow only streamlined suits to save fabric. A lot of people, including the mostly white service members in Los Angeles, see the zoot suit as quite literally unpatriotic. It's wasteful, it's illegal. And they called zoot suiters draft dodgers for not joining the military during the war. Now, some young Mexican Americans in LA also formed gangs and adopted zoot suits as their distinctive style, part of what they called a pachuco subculture. That's how the zoot suit became associated with Mexican American gangs, including what's known as the 38th Street Gang. Local LA papers announced in the summer of 1942 that the city was experiencing a crime wave by pachuco zoot suit gangsters. And it's against all of this backdrop that on August 2, 1942, 22 year old Mexican American man named Jose Diaz was found dead by a reservoir called Sleepy Lagoon just outside of la. Diaz had attended a party the night before where a fight had broken out by a group, crashing the party. Over the next few days, the LAPD rounded up more than 600 people, mostly Mexican Americans. A grand jury eventually indicted 24 Mexican American men between the ages of 16 and 22. They're described throughout the trial as members of the 38th street gang. Most of them were tried together in a single trial and 17 of them were convicted of crimes ranging from assault to first degree murder that resulted in what would be called the Sleepy lagoon trial of 1942. The evidence was pretty flimsy and the legal proceedings were flawed. Over the 13 week trial, the prosecution introduced a number of experts who gave some pretty racist testimony. An LA County Sheriff's captain named Edward Ayers filed a statement that Mexicans were probably inherently violent, maybe because in his view, most Mexicans were Indian and their Aztec ancestry, which involves human sacrifice, probably gave them a propensity to violence.

[Roman Mars]

Oh my God.

[Elizabeth Jo]

The trial judge also refused to let the defendants cut their long hair or to change their clothes during the first month of trial. And so the LA Times called the defendants the zoot suit slayers. And the trial today is considered to have been radically unfair. In 1944, a California appeals court reversed the convictions, finding that the defendants had not received a fair trial. The Sleepy Lagoon case is considered just a precursor to the Zoot suit riots in the summer of 1943, where white civilians and servicemen roamed the streets of LA looking for zoot suiters. And it was during those terrible days that Mexican Americans and then African Americans and Filipino Americans were beaten and stripped of their zoot suits. For weeks, local newspapers hailed the fight against what they called foreign criminals. And the violence finally ended when military officials banned service members from traveling to LA who were looking for trouble. The LA City Council even voted to approve a resolution to ban zoot suits. So what do claims to wartime authority, supposed symbols of gang culture and racism have to do with what's going on now in 2025?

[Roman Mars]

I think I have an idea.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Time to find out.

[Roman Mars]

Let's do it. This is what Trump can teach us about Con Law. We're not only back, we're going back to the original name, an ongoing series of regular release where we look at what zoot suits and tattoos have in common with Trump's perverted interpretation of the Alien Enemies act and use it to examine our Constitution like we never have before. Our music is from Doomtree Records. Our professor and neighbor is Elizabeth Jo, and I'm your fellow student and host, Roman Mars. Oh, and stay tuned to the end of the show for a special announcement that you really do not want to miss. So from that prologue, I assume we're going to talk about the Alien Enemies Act.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Yeah, that's where we're going. So let's remind people about what the act does. Right. The Alien Enemies act dates back to the 18th century, when Congress passes it and a group of other laws known as the Alien and Sedition Acts. Only the Alien Enemies act remains good law today. So, Roman, maybe you can read the important part of that law again.

[Roman Mars]

Whenever there is a declared war between the United States and any foreign nation or government, or any invasion or predatory incursion is perpetrated, attempted or threatened against the territory of the United States by any foreign nation or government, all natives, citizens, denizens, or subjects of the hostile nation or government shall be liable to be apprehended, restrained, secured, and removed as alien.

[Elizabeth Jo]

And that's a mouthful, right? So in plain English, what the act does is to give the President of the United States the power to detain or deport aliens, which is really just the federal law term for non citizens.

[Roman Mars]

Okay?

[Elizabeth Jo]

And so the act refers to all citizens, denizens, or subjects of a hostile nation or government. So under the Alien Enemies act, it doesn't matter whether you are a non citizen lawfully within the United States or not. And the act itself does not guarantee that a person that the President deems an enemy alien will receive notice or a hearing before they are detained or even deported. And the government doesn't even need to satisfy any standard of proof under the act that you are, in fact, an enemy alien. So the entire idea behind the act is to give the President of the United States the authority to expel people who are dangerous to national interests during the war. But the intention of the Alien Enemies act is not as a tool of mass deportation. We have a huge and complex set of federal immigration laws, primarily under the Immigration and Nationality act, that spell out how undocumented people in the United States are to be treated, what legal recourse they have, and what the government's rights and responsibilities are. Now, you and I both talked about the Alien Enemies act at the end of last year because Trump as a presidential candidate, kept promising to rely on the Alien Enemies act as a way to begin mass deportations of what he'd usually refer to as illegal criminal migrants. Now, Remember, there was a big part of his platform, right. For the 2024 election, where he kept saying, there's this huge migrant crime wave that he alone would stop. And then we talked about it because the act seemed like an interesting theoretical problem. You know, Trump couldn't possibly invoke the Alien Enemies Act. Right. That was just like a crazy threat. There was no way he was going to do it. Right.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah. I mean, or like, I believed in his belief to make that threat and that the horrible people around him would want to do that, but that there was something in the Constitution that would stop him from doing these things.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Yeah. Well, he went ahead and did it. And there were so many different crazy, outrageous, and sometimes clearly illegal things that have happened during the past five months, plus hundreds of lawsuits at this point, that it's sort of hard to keep up with what's happened. But I think it's important here for us to at least focus on what's happened with this mass deportation scheme. All right.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Jo]

So as soon as Trump began his second term, he issued an enormous number of executive orders. Remember, he's not a new president anymore, and this time his administration is prepared to act as soon as he takes office. Now, keep in mind that when a president issues an executive order, they are not the same as Congress passing a law. They don't have the same legal status.

[Roman Mars]

Right.

[Elizabeth Jo]

So these executive orders that we're going to talk about focus on immigration. Some of these executive orders rescind or cancel Biden era policies. One is a Biden era policy that says ICE should focus on immigration enforcement, on people who pose a public safety threat. In other words, if they're not posing a public safety threat, don't try to find and arrest these people. That was a Biden policy. Another Biden immigration policy is no enforcement in what are called sensitive places like churches, schools, hospitals. And Trump gets rid of that, too. So the result is that immigration enforcement now is something that can happen to any undocumented person anywhere. It doesn't matter whether you've been here for a week or a decade or almost your whole life. It doesn't matter whether you have a criminal record or not. It doesn't matter whether you're taking your kid to school or going to the doctor. Anybody who is undocumented is now a potential target for arrest and detention.

[Roman Mars]

Right.

[Elizabeth Jo]

So on January 20th, remember, this is the first day of Trump's second term. Trump issues a proclamation that the United States is experiencing an invasion by illegal aliens. The word invasion is important, and it's Deliberate here.

[Roman Mars]

Right.

[Elizabeth Jo]

And then ICE agents begin a surge of raids and large scale arrests around the country. The number of people detained by ICE appears to have gone up dramatically since Trump took office, including the percentage of people with no criminal history. And this is all happening because the Trump administration reportedly has a goal of deporting a million people within a year. That is a huge number, larger than has ever been accomplished by any other president in any other term. But when you have such a huge number, that means that there is pressure on the Department of Homeland Security to find people, any people who could be deported. And Stephen Miller recently said on Fox that the goal is to complete 3,000 ICE arrests every single day. So that's really a quota.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Jo]

So to put this in terms that are easy to understand, imagine like your local police department, the police chief says, look, we have a new quota and every officer has to issue 10 tickets on each shift. Well, you know, if you're gonna do that and you gotta make your quota, you're gonna find people to give tickets to. Whether it's like, you know, it could be totally indiscriminate, it could be abusive, it doesn't matter. You're just gonna hit that quota.

[Roman Mars]

That's right.

[Elizabeth Jo]

And that's why you're seeing videos of ICE raids, of restaurant workers, construction workers, people who aren't really doing anything wrong, but they're really easy to find because they're in plain sight living their lives right now. Some of these people who were either arrested by ICE or questioned during applications for asylum, so legitimately seeking asylum, they received special attention, according to ice, that was because of their tattoos and their clothing that signaled gang membership. Now, even if we accept that some tattoos are in fact linked to gang membership and even violent gangs, a lot of cases are not like that. There's the instance of a man who was detained by ICE with a tattoo of a crown over a soccer. He was a former professional soccer player. That's why he has that tattoo, the clock shaped tattoo of a man who was celebrating his child's birthday. Another man's tattoos that say mom and dad. And then maybe the absolute worst, a man who was deported for his tattoo, which was a rainbow colored ribbon that's the symbol of autism awareness for his brother. Wow. So these men were Venezuelan nationals. And in March, the Department of Homeland Security started to move these particular detained men from ICE centers around the country and sending most of them to a detention facility in South Texas. And many of the lawyers for these detained individuals thought something was about to happen. And they were right. On March 14, Trump signed Proclamation 10903, and it says that trend is a designated foreign terrorist organization with thousands of members, many of whom have unlawfully infiltrated the United States. Okay, but here's the important part. Roman, why don't you read it?

[Roman Mars]

So, okay, so this is. This is quoting Trump.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Right.

[Roman Mars]

I find and declare that TDA is perpetuating, attempting and threatening an invasion or predatory incursion against the territory of the United States. TDA is undertaking hostile actions and conducting irregular warfare against the territory of the United States both directly and at the direction of the Maduro regime in Venezuela.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Now, the proclamation goes on to say that all Venezuelan citizens 14 years of age or older who are members of TDA and are not actually naturalized or lawful permanent residents of the United States are liable to be apprehended, restrained, secured, and removed as alien enemies. What this means is that the Trump administration is claiming the power to remove Venezuelan non citizens in if they claim that the people they have detained in their custody are members of the TDA gang. So, Roman, let's play. What do you think sounds weird about this invocation of the Alien Enemies Act?

[Roman Mars]

Well, I don't know. Sounds weird. It sounds like, you know, Trump's sort of natural language. But the invasion or predatory incursion seems like a sort of, like somewhat unnatural, but. But you can tell. Completely lifted straight from the Alien Enemies Act.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Right. And also, the target of the act is tda, which is a gang. And the last time I checked, if you look at the Alien Enemies act, this is about countries that we're at war with.

[Roman Mars]

Right.

[Elizabeth Jo]

And we are not at war with Venezuela.

[Roman Mars]

Right, Right. I mean, there's lots of things that are missing. The things that are, that are shared are the invasion and predatory incursion sort of language. But obviously declared war between the United States, that didn't happen. And then any foreign nation or government, ntda, is neither of those things.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Yeah. So the logic here is something like, yes, sure, this gang is not a foreign nation, but they're somehow so intertwined with the government of Venezuela, which nobody really believes, that they are treated as if they are a foreign nation. Now, there's clearly no war that Congress has declared here. And so Trump is relying on the other provision of the Alien Enemies act to say, well, this gang has engaged in a predatory incursion, which most of the time, traditionally we have interpreted as saying, well, that's a military campaign against the United States. And there's no sense that there is some concerted military invasion by this particular gang. Now, definitely the gang exists, but somehow the Trump administration has decided to shoehorn this gang's activities into a wartime act. And that's really striking because before 2025, the alien enemies act has been used by presidents only three times in the past. The War of 1812, World War I, and World War II. So in 2025, Trump issues a proclamation under the Alien Enemies act and then starts to act very, very quickly. So quickly, in fact, that the timeline of what happened is actually kind of hard to keep up with, but. You ready?

[Roman Mars]

Yeah. Shoot.

[Elizabeth Jo]

So there are already several lawsuits over this use of the Alien Enemies act, so let's just focus on a few. Right. One is a lawsuit filed as a class action arguing that the Alien Enemies act does not allow the Trump administration to detain and deport non citizens this way. The ACLU filed a lawsuit the day after Trump signed the proclamation on Saturday, March 15. And they sue on behalf of five Venezuelan men who are already in ICE detention. The administration had at this point, more than 200 people that it was trying to forcibly expel from the country using the Alien Enemies Act. Now, the judge in this case ordered the Trump administration to stop, don't remove these people from the country subject to the Alien Enemies Act. But here's what the administration does. They delay the deportation of the five people named in the lawsuit, but then they continue with three flights full of people that they have in custody. So here's the crazy timeline. Two planes leave the United States between 5 and 6pm on March 16 from a Texas detention facility. On 6:48pm the very same day the judge tells the government, turn the planes around. He tells the government's lawyer, you shall inform your clients of this immediately and that any plane containing these folks that is going to take off or is in the air needs to be returned to the United States. They do not turn around. And in fact, after this happens, the government flies a third plane from Texas at 7:36pm the same day. And the reason why these lawyers are rushing to court, because the Trump administration is flying these detainees to cecot.

[Roman Mars]

And what is cecot?

[Elizabeth Jo]

Well, CECOT is also known as the Terrorism Confinement Center. It's a giant megaprison outside of the capital of El Salvador. Now, Nayib Bukele is the authoritarian president of El Salvador. I mean, by his own admission, he calls himself a really cool dictator. So he has suspended normal due process rights in the country by declaring an ongoing state of emergency. And Bukele has focused on cracking down on criminal gangs in El Salvador by Putting them into this scary, gigantic prison where tens of thousands of inmates are locked up basically all day long, 23 hours a day, and are basically kept in extreme isolation. The pictures that have been posted are really horrific. There are dozens of men sitting on quadruple bunks, no mattresses, people in chains. And human rights organizations have said that the conditions inside are terrible and the treatment of inmates is abusive. But it's to seekot that the Trump administration has chosen to send people they claim are alien enemies. And on March 16, Carolyn Levitt, the White House press secretary, she acknowledged that the Trump administration is paying El Salvador $6 million to detain people. So El Salvador is acting like a prison subcontractor for the Trump administration.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah, but didn't the judge tell the government specifically not to do this?

[Elizabeth Jo]

Yeah, and that's where things take a really scary turn. The Trump administration did not turn the planes around after the judge ordered them to do so. And in fact, as I just mentioned, they threw a third plane after the judge posted this official order. Now, the very next day, that's on March 17, Tom Homan, that's Trump's borders are, he goes on Fox News. Here's what Homan says. I don't care what judges think. The plane is already over international waters with a plane full of terrorists and significant public safety threats. So think about that. If Homan's right, it's the being over international waters that matters. If the government can get non citizens or maybe anybody over into international waters, then your claims are invalid. No court can help you, period. That's a terrifying argument that all the government has to do is get you beyond the geographic scope of the United States and you're toast.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah, that is terrifying to me. I mean, it seems like it's reminiscent of the rendition sort of stuff that happened, you know, 20 something years ago.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Right. I mean, it's absolutely terrifying. So in court, the Trump administration then appeals this court order, the one that they didn't follow, that halts any deportations under the Alien Enemies Act. And this eventually gets to the Supreme Court's emergency docket. And on April 7, the Supreme Court issues a short opinion that does two things. The first one looks like a win for the Trump administration. Basically, well, plaintiffs, you filed in the wrong court. You should bring the case where you're being held, not in Washington D.C. so maybe that seems like a loss. But the other thing the Supreme Court says is that the government does have to give people detained under the Alien Enemies act some notice and a reasonable chance to challenge their Detention in court. In other words, the Supreme Court acknowledges that these noncitizens do have constitutional due process rights. And so the court's intervention here does kind of slow down the case for the plaintiffs, which is called JGG v. Trump. But it's not a complete Trump victory either. The court's not going to the government to do these middle of the night deportations. Now, that's just one lawsuit. Here's the other significant one. A second lawsuit is filed by two detainees whom the government claims are members of tda. It's called AARP versus Trump, not the American association of Persons Different.

[Roman Mars]

I mean, given the amount of mail I get from the aarp, I'm ready to classify them as a terrorist organization.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Yeah, same here. They're also filing on behalf of all detainees in the same situation. Right. So, like the first case, these plaintiffs file what's called a habeas petition. That's a legal claim that they're being held unlawfully by the government. So at first, they ask a federal court to stop the government from deporting them. On April 18, the detainees in the AARP case file an emergency motion. They argue that the federal government is literally about to deport them under the Alien Enemies act, and they've given them notices about their imminent deportation in English, which the detainees cannot read. It's not their first language. And that the deportation is about to happen in the next 24 hours. Now, remember, the Supreme Court had already said in the other case, more than a week before this emergency request that the government has to provide these detained individuals with some opportunity to challenge their detention. And yet the government says, still not really listening, and this helps you understand why the Supreme Court does not wait so long this time. On Saturday, April 19, the Supreme Court issues a stay or a halt at 12:52am to the government ordering the government not to deport these plaintiffs while their lawsuit is pending.

[Roman Mars]

And so describe to me how unusual is that for them to issue an order at 12:52am because that strikes me as extremely unusual.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Yeah, it is totally unprecedented. I mean, I wouldn't say it's totally unprecedented, but it's very, very unusual. Remember that in the first case, the Supreme Court had already said to the Trump administration, you can't just kidnap these noncitizens and then send them to this foreign megaprison. And yet the government is apparently in the process of moving the detainees in this second case from a detention center to the airport in violation of the limits the Supreme Court had already issued. In the first case on April 7. So the case, this case bounces up and down the court system for different procedural reasons and goes back to the Supreme Court. On May 16, the Supreme Court takes another look at the case and basically says, no, really, we really mean it. You cannot put these detainees on planes while their cases are pending. If the government wants to deport these detainees, the government has to provide them with notice and in a way that actually allows them to challenge their detention in court. It's definitely not good enough to wave a piece of paper in front of a detainee in a language that they, they can't read because it's not their first language as they board the plane to El Salvador. And here again, the court makes very clear that even non citizens are entitled to constitutionally adequate procedures before they're removed from the country. And so this part's important because even though the Alien Enemies act itself, you know, that 18th century law doesn't state that you should have some way of challenging the government's claims against you. The Supreme Court is saying, look, that doesn't matter, because we have this separate set of constitutional traditions that we've developed over the decades, saying that if you have what's called a liberty interest, your ability to be in the United States, if you have the right to be there that we should have, or we should grant you some regular procedures, even to non citizens, before the government removes you from the country. And we are re emphasizing that these detainees have those rights. And that is a principle that's been recognized by the court for more than 100 years, that if you're going to just simply deport someone, you can't just deport them. They have a right to some kind of procedure. So there's another interesting part in this decision. In the AARP case, the Supreme Court seems to be squarely questioning, finally, the good faith of the Trump administration. The Supreme Court points out the absurdity of the government's position, which is, basically, sure, we'll keep these people here on April 18th because we'll have a nighttime court hearing, but that's enough process, and we'll put them on the plane the next day. And it's also the government's position, the Supreme Court points out, that once they're out of the United States, the government no longer has any custody over them. And so the court can't order the government to do anything. That's the Tom Homan, you know, you're in international waters argument. That position is really shocking for the government to take in front of the Supreme Court, remember, because the Trump administration is paying El Salvador to confine these detainees. If the government paid a private prison in the United States to detain people, we wouldn't expect the United States to be able to argue, well, it's not our problem anymore what this private prison does to these people, because it's out of our hands. It doesn't make sense. It's absurd. So of course they are effectively constructively within the custody of the Trump administration still. So you see here in this particular case, the court is in its Supreme Court ish kind of way, being fed up with what the government's saying. Right?

[Roman Mars]

Right. But does it matter?

[Elizabeth Jo]

Let's hope it does matter, because the Supreme Court has decided to step in a couple of times so far and probably will continue to.

[Roman Mars]

We'Ll be right back. Let's be real B2B marketing is tough. You can craft the perfect campaign, but if it lands in front of the wrong people, it might as well be invisible. It's like reaching pro gamers instead of programmers. That's where LinkedIn ads come in. LinkedIn is a network of over 1 billion professionals who actually get business on LinkedIn ads. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority skills, company revenue, and more. So stop wasting budget on the wrong audience and start targeting the right professionals with LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn will even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign, so you can try it yourself. Just go to LinkedIn.com invisible that's LinkedIn.com invisible Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer services and get paid all in one place, from consultations to events and experiences. Showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. With their collection of cutting edge design tools, anyone can build a bespoke online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. And Squarespace's intuitive built in analytics tools can help you make smarter business decisions by letting you review website traffic, focus on key areas of engagement, and track revenue from bookings, invoices, or product sales, all from one place. I set up Romanmars.com, my Squarespace site, so long ago. It was very simple and it's sort of dynamically refreshed by social media posts and other tools and so I don't really have to follow with it, which is the greatest gift Squarespace can give me. Head to squarespace.com invisible for a free trial and when you're ready to launch Use Offer code Invisible to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Netcredit is here to say yes because.

[Elizabeth Jo]

You'Re more than a credit score. Apply in minutes and get a decision as soon as the same day.

[Roman Mars]

Loans offered by NetCredit or lending partner.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Banks and serviced by NetCredit applications subject.

[Roman Mars]

To review and approval.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Learn more at netcredit.com partners. NetCredit credit to the People in the.

[Roman Mars]

Summer all of Oregon is our playground thanks to our incredible park system. That's why it's so cool that Oregon Lottery gameplay like video lottery or cash pop helps support tons of parks projects statewide like accessible trails at Silver Falls State park or upgrades to your favorite dog park in Newburgh. It's just one way a little lottery play from many Oregonians can add up to a lot of good the Oregon Lottery. Together we do good things. Lottery games are based on chance and.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Should be played for entertainment only.

[Roman Mars]

Must be 18 or older to play. We're back with Professor Elizabeth Zhou talking about the Alien Enemies Act. And so, Elizabeth, we've been talking about how the Supreme Court has intervened in specific cases that have to do with the rapid rate at which the Trump administration is processing these people for deportation. That people haven't had a chance to petition their cases. But beyond that, is there an indication that the Supreme Court has weighed in on whether or not Trump can use the Alien Enemies act in this way at all? Like in the broad sense?

[Elizabeth Jo]

That's a great question. And it's important to know that the Supreme Court has not yet decided that case as to whether or not Trump is actually allowed to rely on the Alien Enemies act in this particular way. You know, the way courts work is they can only answer the questions that are given to them. They can't step away from this case and be like, by the way, nobody asked us, but this is unconstitutional. So that's right. We were on these kind of emergency procedures because the most immediate thing these detainees lawyers are saying is please stop them from putting them on the planes and sending them to El Salvador. Now the underlying claims they have are things like the Trump administration cannot rely on the act in this way, but the Supreme Court has yet to rule on that case. So you have these things. And then the Supreme Court then of course in this ARP case says, you know, you can't do this. You gotta give them some process. So just a few days later, Trump responds online in a Truth social post on April 21st I'm doing what I was elected to do, remove criminals from our country. And he says we can't give them due process because, and I quote, that would take, without exaggeration, 200 years. Well, that is an exaggeration. It would not take 200 years. And yes, that's kind of the point of due process, that no matter how long it drags out or how costly it is, that's why we live in a constitutional republic. Right. Because we have these kinds of protections. So, I mean, that is a big reveal, right, of the kind of framework of the Trump perspective, which is, why would we care about doing this? Why would we give any process to these people? Who cares what our constitutional protections are?

[Roman Mars]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Jo]

So a big part of what makes all of this so very confusing, I think, to people trying to follow along, is that there are several different questions about what the government's doing here. So more than 200 people have been sent by the Trump administration to seekot in El Salvador so far. Some were sent there because an immigration judge had already considered those folks subject to deportation under normal federal immigration law. And the government certainly can deport a non citizen, for instance, who's been convicted of a crime in the United States. That's within the government's rights. But a big number of these people sent to seekot were only sent there because Trump designated them alien enemies under the Alien Enemies Act. Remember, Trump's claim is that these people in this group are part of a vicious criminal gang, tda, and they're part of this predatory incursion upon the United States. But a recent investigation by the media outlet ProPublica found that only 32 of the 238 Venezuelans who had been sent there already had been convicted of crimes. And most of those crimes were for nonviolent offenses like shoplifting or traffic violations. So the entire Trump administration strategy so far seems to have been to rush out a group of Venezuelan nationals based on dubious claims about their clothes or their tattoos that they were wearing, sending them out of the country before any court really had a real opportunity to review their claims because, well, basically just Trump's plain assertion that they were members of tda. And that's just one question. Can Trump do this? Can they just disappear people in the middle of the night on the accusation that they're enemy aliens. And the position of the Department of Homeland Security has been, well, due process means you get 12 to 24 hours to challenge your deportation. That's enough, Right? You look online, find the lawyer who's good at challenging an unprecedented use of the Alien Enemies Act. I'm sure they will define them within 12 hours.

[Roman Mars]

Insane.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Yeah, it's crazy. And then there's another question. How much process is required before these people are deported? The Trump administration's argument had been that, well, if you're a member of TDA because we say so, then we can deport you with no hearing at all. Now, the Supreme Court has already squarely rejected that argument, saying that's ridiculous. You get some process. Then there's a different question. Even if you have an Alien Enemies act proclamation, does that mean you can send non citizens to a foreign prison indefinitely?

[Roman Mars]

Right.

[Elizabeth Jo]

In World War II, most of these alien enemies were just deported. They were just expelled from the United States. They weren't sent to a megaprison. And then there's the separate objection of sending people not just to any prison, but this incredibly horrible, abusive supermax prison called zcot. After all, the United States is a party to an important international treaty, and that's the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel and Inhuman or Degrading Treatments or Punishments. We are obligated to treat people even within our custody, no matter what they've done to humane conditions. And it would seem like at least a question of whether we're complying with our treaty obligations if we're sending people to this place.

[Roman Mars]

Absolutely. And paying for it.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Yeah.

[Roman Mars]

So you mentioned the Supreme Court hasn't weighed in on whether or not it's actually possible for Trump to use the Alien Enemies act in this way. But has any court weighed in on this?

[Elizabeth Jo]

Well, at least three federal district court judges. That's trial level court judges have issued rulings that Trump can't rely on the Alien Enemies act to deport non citizens. But there is one judge, a Trump appointee in Pennsylvania, that said, well, maybe Trump can do this.

[Roman Mars]

Okay, what is his argument there?

[Elizabeth Jo]

Well, the judge found that it was enough that when the Trump administration declared that TDA was a foreign terrorist organization, that that would qualify for them being this kind of terrible organization that could lead to an Alien Enemies act proclamation. The fact that TDA isn't a foreign country isn't a problem, said this judge, because the proclamation asserted that TDA was working with the Maduro regime in Venezuela. So remember that the Alien Enemies act applies either when there's a declared war declared by Congress or any invasion or predatory incursion by a foreign government. And here's where things get kind of murky. Right. Because in our constitutional traditions in foreign relations, there's generally a preference to defer to the President's judgment in times of war. And foreign affairs issues Right. But the question is, is this really that kind of exercise of a president's discretion? Well, this one particular judge said, yeah, it is. And, you know, it's not for us to second guess what the Trump administration is doing so they can use the alien enemies act that way. It kind of sounds like, well, if the president says so, it's. So that is not a conclusion that we should sit well with, because it sounds kind of terrifying. Whatever Trump says goes, absolutely.

[Roman Mars]

That is very terrifying for any president to have that power.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Well, that's right. And in fact, it's much more persuasive to look at some of the other cases in which other federal district court judges said, I don't think the president can use the alien enemies that act this way. So in one of those cases, Judge Alvin Hellerstein began his opinion by saying this. More than 200 aliens were removed from this country to El Salvador's terrorism confinement center with faint hope of process or return. They are there to remain indefinitely in a notoriously evil jail, unable to communicate with counsel, family, or friends. So that really does give you a sense that, you know, there are judges here. I don't know how long they can be a sort of bulwark for the rest of our constitutional order. Judges who are sounding the alarm. This should not be happening. The Trump administration should not be using the law in this way.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Jo]

And then maybe the worst case of all is the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia.

[Roman Mars]

Right.

[Elizabeth Jo]

So let's talk about him.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah, please.

[Elizabeth Jo]

So Abreco Garcia, who lives in Maryland, entered the United States in 2011. So he's fleeing gang violence from his native El Salvador. He meets and marries a US citizen. They have a child who's also a US citizen. Now, in 2019, he's waiting outside of a Home Depot looking for work with a group of other men he doesn't really know very well. The police arrive. They handcuff all the men. He never figures out why. He's never charged with a crime. But when they look up his status, they see he's undocumented. And Abrego Garcia is transferred to an ICE detention facility. And the only information ICE provides about why Abrego Garcia could be a danger, this is in 2019, is they say he's wearing a Chicago Bulls hat and a hoodie. And a confidential informant had purportedly advised them that he's a member of the MS.13 criminal gang. Now, his lawyers at the time asked to speak to the police officer who logged this information to figure out where'd this come from. But then they learned that the officer has been suspended anyway. Rodrigo Garcia has always said he is not a member of any gang whatsoever. And then he applies for asylum. And in October of 2019, maybe this is the key point of his story. An immigration judge agrees that Abrego Garcia faces persecution by gangs in El Salvador. That's why he had left. His family had faced threats by gangs about their family business. He's not allowed to be deported. So you have here a legal decision by an immigration judge agreeing that Abrego Garcia has a legal right to stay in the United States. ICE doesn't even appeal the decision. He gets released from custody, he goes home, and he has no criminal history after that. Nothing of any sort. And he's supposed to have a mandatory yearly check in with ice. And he complies each time. Then Trump is elected president. In March 12th of this year, Abrego Garcia is driving home from work. He's a sheet metal apprentice in Baltimore. And then he's pulled over by ICE officers. They take him away, and in the car with him is his five year old son. So his wife is called to go pick up their kid. She briefly sees Abrego Garcia, and that's the very last time she sees him in person. She tried frantically to find him, but ICE keeps moving him from place to place until finally on March 16, this is just days after he's stopped by ICE. She sees a news article of supposed gang members sent to Seekot and she recognizes her husband. She files a lawsuit to secure his return. And on April 4, a federal district judge ordered the government to return him to the United States. Remember, an immigration judge had already decided in 2019 that the government could not deport Abrego Garcia. This was a mistake. In fact, this is a case where the Trump administration actually acknowledges that they made a mistake. When the judge asks the government's lawyer, why was he sent there? The lawyer replies, I don't know. That information has not been given to me. I don't know.

[Roman Mars]

But shouldn't that resolve the case and lead to him being brought back?

[Elizabeth Jo]

Yeah. Normally the conventional answer is yes. In this case, the government admits that they made a mistake. So the next logical step would be they bring him back. So you think it would resolve the case, but it doesn't. Because the government's position now is we made a mistake, but sorry, there's nothing we can do about it now. He's in El Salvador, it's out of our hands. And the government then appeals the district court's order to return Abrego Garcia. And that eventually goes up to the Supreme Court as another emergency matter. And on April 10, the Supreme Court upholds the district court's decision to demand Abrego Garcia's return. The court says that the lower court order properly requires the government to facilitate Abrego Garcia's release from custody in El Salvador. So Justice Sotomayor writes a separate opinion to point out, look, this isn't someone else's problem. This isn't Abrego Garcia's problem. This is an everyone problem. Because if the government can mistakenly send a non citizen to a third country and say there's nothing we can do about it, they can so called mistakenly send anybody, even a US Citizen, she says, and dump them in another country without any legal consequence, even if a court tries to intervene. So Sotomayor's point, and this is an important one, is that she's really saying this is kind of the end of the rule of law. If we allow this, no one is going to be safe from an administration's completely arbitrary and lawless decisions if we allow this to happen.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah, that makes sense to me. And so what happened to him?

[Elizabeth Jo]

Well, that's the bizarre part of it. It's June and he's still there. So remember, the court order that the Supreme Court is referring to says that the government is supposed to do everything it can to facilitate his return. I don't know, what's your sense of the word facilitate?

[Roman Mars]

I mean, like, use all available ability and, you know, like, I don't know, they don't, maybe they don't work on weekends, but at least they, they do everything they can to get him back.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Yeah, well, the government and Brego Garcia's lawyers are really initially fighting over the word facilitate. What does it mean to facilitate? Do they just check in on him? Does that mean put him on a plane immediately? You know, maybe just find out where he is? The case actually continues to drag out in court months after Abrego Garcia was taken away by ICE officers, which the government admits was a mistake. So in other words, there is in fact actually no lawful basis for the government to have taken Abrego Garcia out of the United States to another country. No legal basis to continue to have him be held there and not return him back to the United States where he has a right to be.

[Roman Mars]

Is there any consequence to that? That they're not like the Trump administration isn't sort of adhering to a Supreme Court order?

[Elizabeth Jo]

Well, that's the uncomfortable part here. It is kind of the case that the Trump administration is violating court orders. Well, there's a couple of different ways this is happening, not just in Abrego Garcia's case, because they're not returning him. There's also the April 7th order in one of the other alien enemies cases where the government was told don't remove people without a notice and an opportunity to challenge their designation as alien enemies. But then they continued to do that. That's why there was that middle of the night order. So there are at least two instances here where the government is being told by the court, do something, and the government's like, maybe, no, we don't have to do that right now. So if we're now living in a world where we can't rely on the executive branch following court orders, we're in a very, very bad place. None of this is normal, and we shouldn't allow it to become normal. So these are not problems of other people. I mean, I think that's one of the strange things about what's happened so far this year. It's not as if we live in a dual legal system where some people are being treated horribly and then the rest of us kind of go on and live their lives. If the government can make arbitrary decisions about some people, it can make arbitrary decisions about anybody. It can make arbitrary decisions, not just about, like, your liberty. It could make arbitrary decisions about your livelihood or your bank account or the way the economy is going to be run or anything. I mean, the rule of law is basically an expectation that there's an order to things. And if there is no rule of law, then you don't really know what's going to happen on any particular day in any particular moment.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah. I mean, that's a terrifying way to live. That's like the reason why people care about the Constitution at all is because it's this 200 year old, oldest still in force rule book of how a country is run. And if you don't do those things, then it's sort of meaningless. Like everything that makes us special is out the window.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Yeah. It's basically like a. It's like a, you know, a social contract. It's a code of honor. It's an honor system we've agreed to live by. And that's pretty much all the courts have. Right. Because if the courts just say, do this, and the Trump administration says no, then there's nothing else we can do. Right. I mean, we all sort of depend on the judiciary being respected in terms of their judgments because. Just because of their legitimacy. But if you have another branch of government that starts to ignore them, then there's really no telling what happens from here.

[Roman Mars]

It's a terrifying world.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Yeah. Now, finally, I want to bring up one more aspect of the Alien Enemies Act. I'm kind of even reluctant to bring it up, but let's do it.

[Roman Mars]

Okay.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Almost all of the public attention to the Alien Enemies act is focused on its primary provision. That's 50 USC 21. That's the part that gives the President of the United States the power to declare that some group of people can be considered alien enemies. But here's another provision 53, and Roman, why don't we have you read it?

[Roman Mars]

After any such proclamation has been made, the several courts of the United States are authorized upon complaint against any alien enemy resident to the danger of the public peace or safety, and contrary to the tenor or intent of such proclamation, to cause such alien to be duly apprehended and conveyed before such court, judge or justice, and after a full examination and hearing on such complaint and sufficient cause appearing to order such alien to be removed out of the territory of the United States or to give sureties for his good behavior or to be otherwise restrained.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Okay, so that is a mouthful. What exactly does that mean? So this provision 23, it sounds like it gives federal courts authority over alien enemy cases directly, not like the ones we've talked about earlier today, whenever there is what the provision calls a complaint. Well, that's kind of weird because the President doesn't file a complaint under the act. He just makes a proclamation and the executive branch is just set into motion. Which is exactly what we've seen. Well, it turns out that a federal Appeals Court in 1946 said that Section 23 means that the Alien Enemies act applies when a citizen files a complaint that a person is an enemy alien. So the Brennan Center, a nonpartisan legal and policy institute, points out that this appears to be a private enforcement mechanism for the Alien Enemies Act. So this is why I'm even loathe to bring this up. But anyway, like someone might say, hey, I think my neighbor is an alien enemy. I'm going to file a legal complaint against them. So to be clear, there don't appear to be any historical cases where private individuals have done this. So maybe no one ever has. And I hope the anti immigration groups are not listening to this. But none of these groups have ever raised this possibility. So let's just hope that people aren't paying attention to this because it raises the horrible, horrible possibility of mass deportation vigilantes if this section actually does allow citizens to file complaints. You can imagine the kind of havoc it creates. I mean, a good parallel is from what's happened after the demise of abortion rights. You might remember SB8 in Texas where you could just file a complaint against somebody in court. You could sue somebody if you thought that they were engaged in what Texas considers an illegal abortion. There's also the Historically, America has a long tradition of vigilantism. So none of this sounds good, but it is buried in there. And let's just hope it stays buried in there.

[Roman Mars]

I mean, what is the good of you bringing it up now if we can't stop it? If you're coming back, Kyle Reese coming back from the future and trying to stop it, like, why come back and tell us this if we can't stop it? Is there a way to stop it?

[Elizabeth Jo]

I'm not sure that there's a way to stop it. There have been repeated attempts to repeal the Alien Enemies act wholesale, which have not succeeded thus far. But it's a way to draw attention to. We've had this act around for a long time, giving incredible authority not just to the president, but apparently to normal people, too, but in acts of extreme urgency in wartime. And I guess it's to remind people it's not supposed to be used this way as some sort of tool of vengeance, racism or xenophobia in ordinary times.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah, yeah. And all the other parts, people recognize those, like the part, the sedition part of the act and stuff like this were eliminated because common sense prevailed over the last couple hundred years.

[Elizabeth Jo]

But not in this case. Not with this act.

[Roman Mars]

No, not at all. This is sobering stuff. I'm glad that we're back to talk about it. I really appreciate you coming on and continuing the show with me.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Yeah. Thanks, Rowan.

[Roman Mars]

So in addition to the what Trump can teach us about Con Law that we're restarting as a monthly series, we've decided that as our book club to sort of take the place of the power broker, we're going to have the U.S. constitution be our book. That's the thing that we are going to cover once a month with Elizabeth and we're gonna go step by step through the Constitution. Instead of a 1200 page book, we're gonna do like a, you know, a 7500 word document instead. That's maybe about five or six pages long.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Right, right. The best book club ever. You don't have to pretend that you read it, but you really didn't.

[Roman Mars]

So. Yeah. So starting in July every month, we're gonna cover sort of what Trump can teach us about Con Law, something that's happening in current events. And then we're gonna also have a book covering section by section, maybe a few words at a time. And we'll be joined by all kinds of guests who care about these things and sort of various ways. We'll release a schedule. So you can do the reading ahead of time if you want to, but the reading might be 30 or 40 words, actually literally. And we're going to treat the Constitution in a historical context, in a present day consequences context, maybe even just as the text itself. This one's hard to read. Treat it like a real book club, you know, not just about the, you know, the history import of everything, but, like, talk about every little aspect of it that strikes you when you read it as a reader, you know, and as a citizen or, you know, as a denizen of the United States, which the, the Constitution does apply to all denizens, not citizens. That's an important thing to recognize. Exactly. So anything else that you want to sort of mention with it, you know, like you excited about or want to, you know?

[Elizabeth Jo]

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, we are definitely in some dark times, but I think the book club is a way to kind of be hopeful and to think about a document that deserves to survive and to prop up our constitutional republic for some time longer. And part of that is to feel hopeful that there are. There's a structure there and there's a purpose and an intention behind the document and the words. And just by discussing it, people can feel better, informed and hopefully optimistic.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah. So when we first started what Trump confused about con Law in 2017, a lot of what I was looking for when I was like, reaching out to you was like, I want to understand the Constitution and Constitutional law more. Because everyone was invoking constitutional law of like, oh, Trump can't do this because X or, you know, X states that Trump can't do this or whatever it is. And we're kind of of entering a stranger territory here, a darker territory here, where there are laws and there are judgments and the Trump administration is simply not following them. And that comfort I had back eight years ago, it's sort of different now where I was resting on the Constitution to sort of like to wrap a warm blanket around myself using the Constitution and say, look, now we can be warm and protected. Now it feels like a different world in which it really isn't the protection it once was because of just not following the law and not following the Constitution. So, like, is it futile to like, point to the Constitution? I mean, like, we used to just, like, I just remember, like 2017, we'd go emoluments clause, emoluments clause. He's filing the emoluments clause as if it mattered. And now we've learned it kind of doesn't matter. And so why bother, like, why bother schooling ourselves in sort of the fundamental rule book of the nation if the rules aren't followed?

[Elizabeth Jo]

I think because this time the Constitution's not a worm blanket for us. It's that we have to provide the support. If we want to believe in the system that we have been living in prior to Trump and Trumpism, we have to really understand why these words take on meaning. They take on meaning through practice and through sort of popular support and enforcement. And I think it's not just a set of rules that are out there that other people rush to court and other courts do. In some distant way far from my everyday life. It's actually really important to understand, hey, I mean, I get why we have this sort of community writ large commitment to this idea of a constitutional democracy. And I think so we've gotta be the warm black and we have to be the support system to think about what's important here. Because everything about the Constitution is, like I said, it's an honor system. We all have to agree, agree that this is important and it's meaningful because if we don't, you know, everything is a. The Constitution is a commitment we make, you know, on a day to day basis. And that's part of what thinking about it in a broad, you know, historical and sometimes fun way can, can achieve.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah. Yeah. So the Constitution right now is not lending aid and comfort to us. It is our time to rise up and, and lend aid and comfort to the Constitution so that this stuff continues on. Because I, I like our experiment of the United States. And so let's keep going with it.

[Elizabeth Jo]

Yeah, exactly.

[Roman Mars]

So starting with our first episode will be about the preamble to the Constitution.

[Elizabeth Jo]

And you can do it. It's just 52 words.

[Roman Mars]

It's so easy to read it ahead of time. Even if you start the podcast, you can just pause it for like a minute and then read it and then we can start right there. And so that'll start in July every month. So I hope you join us for that. It's going to be very, very cool. So thank you so much, Elizabeth. I really, really appreciate. I'm so glad that we're going to continue on.

[Elizabeth Jo]

It's going to be great.

[Roman Mars]

After a recording the Trump administration returned Kilmar Abrego Garcia to the United States on June 6 and criminally charged him with transporting undocumented migrants into the United States. Abrego Garcia will now face those charges in federal court as a criminal defender. This show is produced by Elizabeth Jo, Isabel angel and me, Roman Mars. It's mixed by Martin Gonzalez. Our executive producer is Kathy Tu. You can find us [e-mail] our theme music is provided by Doomtree Records, the Midwest hip hop collective. You can find out more about Doomtree Records, get Merch and learn about who's on [e-mail] Additional music by Swan Rial and Epidemic Sound. We are part of the SiriusXM podcast mix family.

[Elizabeth Jo]

This Father's Day at Lowe's Score free gifts for the greatest dad Right now get a free Blackstone 8 piece accessory kit when you buy a Blackstone 28 inch griddle. Plus get two free select Craftsman V20 tools when you buy an RP brushless drill and Impact Driver combo kit. Shop these deals and more this Father's Day at Lowe's. We help you save valid through 6:15 while supplies last selection mirrors by location.

[Roman Mars]

Get yout Guide brings the thrill of discovery to every moment leading up to a trip. From uncovering hidden gems to getting a head start on booking things, the adventure begins the moment you start dreaming. Choose from over 150,000 experiences, including guided tours, sightseeing excursions, adventure activities, museum tickets, and more. Enjoy locally vetted and expertly curated experiences in the US and abroad. Discover and book your experience for your next trip at getyourguide. Com. That's getyourguide. Com.